February 25, 2026 • 27 mins
What if your biggest arguments, stalled projects, and late-night worries aren’t personal failures, but energy mismatches you can learn to navigate? We break down the STIR model—Stabilizer, Transformer, Initiator, Responder—through two lenses: dynamic vs static energy and masculine vs feminine expression.
We dig into competing anxieties that fuel conflict: one partner wants comfort while the other rushes to fix; one teammate needs consensus while another pushes for speed. You’ll hear a grounded case study of pandemic-era drinking reframed as a Transformer in distress, and how activating Initiator discipline and Stabilizer routines created real change without shame. From boardrooms to living rooms, we explore when to widen the circle and when to give a clear directive, and how to build complementary strengths so creativity doesn’t die on the whiteboard.
Then we open an unexpected door: dream work as a practical tool for integration. Dream characters often embody neglected parts of ourselves—masculine or feminine voices, or specific STIR energies—acting out what our waking self avoids. By asking “If that character is me, what is it trying to do or protect?” nightmares become maps. You’ll leave with simple practices to identify your default energy, choose the one you need next, and translate insight into daily action.
If this conversation sparks something useful, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review with your favorite takeaway. Your notes help others find the podcast and keep the work growing.
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:12):
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams, where we
invite you into a space tocultivate greater awareness,
clarify your purpose, and expandyour fulfillment by exploring
the inner landscape ofpersonality.
I'm your co-host, Dee Kelly, andI'm joined by Jim Shaley.
Together we bring our experiencein coaching and therapy to help
(00:34):
you do some of your own work inself-understanding and personal
growth.
So, Jim, let's go over the fourpersonality styles that will be
for different individuals.
They may resonate immediatelywith one.
It may be that as they'velistened to us talk, that they
still struggle a little bit totry and identify where they fall
(00:57):
in this system.
And sometimes it's helpful toask somebody else, maybe listing
some of the characteristics.
Does this sound like me?
SPEAKER_01 (01:05):
Yep.
I think it's great to do alittle bit of review.
Because if people have listened,they might go, what the crap are
they talking about?
So we've been kind of all overthe map on some of them, I know,
but I think it's great to do ageneral review.
Again, the way I the way Iconceptualize it initially, or
that we've talked about it, isthat is the word stir?
SPEAKER_02 (01:26):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
Because as you kind of come to grips with all of
them, there's a stirring insidetypically.
And stir I've obviously standsfor the stabilizer, the
transformer, the initiator, andthe responder.
Those are the four quadrantsthat we kind of talk about
throughout the our discussion.
SPEAKER_00 (01:43):
Aaron Powell And let's break them down into the
two dimensions that we talkabout all of the time.
One is the dynamic energy thatis really focused on movement,
action, accomplishing things,productivity in many ways.
SPEAKER_01 (01:59):
Yeah, those that's the initiator and the
transformer.
SPEAKER_00 (02:01):
Aaron Powell Great.
The initiator and thetransformer are both expressions
of that dynamic energy.
And the static energy, sometimesreferred to as a stabilizing
force, organizing force thatbrings order and systems to the
world or to a family or to anorganization.
Those two are a stabilizer andthe responder.
SPEAKER_01 (02:24):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
Yeah, those two.
So the other dimension that weoften talk about is the
masculine expression and thefeminine expression, which we've
said many times, but is alwaysworth repeating.
SPEAKER_01 (02:35):
It's always worth repeating.
It's not male, female.
Absolutely true.
SPEAKER_00 (02:38):
Yeah.
So all of us have within us anexpression of masculine and
feminine approaches.
And let's do that same division.
Those that would look far moremasculine in nature concern
themselves generally with whatkinds of things?
SPEAKER_01 (02:56):
The stabilizer and the initiator?
SPEAKER_00 (02:58):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (02:59):
Yeah.
It's basically bringingstructure to things or uh the
initiator basically wouldimplement a plan.
The interesting thing about thatis oftentimes the initiator
needs to work cooperatively withthe transformer who sees who
sees new ways of doing things.
And so the transformer is verycreative but have a hard time
(03:21):
following through.
So they actually need theinitiating energy.
And some people are are giftedenough to have both those, so
then they're they're able toreally implement the things that
they create.
Whereas some people are ideapeople and they'll surround
themselves with people that thatinitiate and to and and
implement.
So and then the stabilizer kindof all does the same thing in a
(03:44):
different way where they they itput in place structures and
systems to get to of order toget things done as well.
But they all but again, that'swhy it's so important to see how
they work together.
Because without the thenurturing of the responder and
the creativity of thetransformer, lots of times the
(04:05):
initiator and the stabilizerdon't have anything to do.
SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
So the initiator and the stabilizer, this masculine
expression of who we are isoften concerned with simply
accomplishing tasks.
(04:31):
And uh both relationships withindividuals, but sometimes also
relationships with the world,with nature, with those kinds of
things.
It's relational-oriented.
Yeah.
So those individuals canaccomplish tasks, but it's also
pardon me, it's always withrelationships in mind.
I'm accomplishing things.
SPEAKER_01 (04:53):
Whereas the initiator and the and the
stabilizer, they don't tend tothe relationship as much.
Now they would say, it's likethe classic thing with couples
counseling, is that the thefeminine or the woman in this
case will want to ventfrustrations and the man will
want to fix it.
They'll jump into the masculinemode.
(05:13):
I mean, their intention is tohelp.
So they would say, no, I'mtrying to help.
When really they're just tryingto get the thing solved.
So they don't have to haveanxiety about it, probably if I
had to do a deeper dive of that.
But again, that's masculineenergy.
I just want to take care of it.
Whereas they would make a casethat, no, this is trying to help
her.
Whereas a feminine would go, no,you're not helping at all.
(05:35):
I just want you to listen.
They want they want you toactually go into the responder
mode and just listen andnurture.
And so if you pay attention tothe dynamics, you can see where
you're trying to push each otherto the place where you want them
to be because you haven'tdeveloped that side of yourself
yet, or it could be a number ofreasons.
SPEAKER_00 (05:52):
Yeah.
I feel like I often have to whenworking with individuals who are
in relationship and they'restruggling with conflict, or
when I'm working with couples,that I often have to bring up
the issue of implied intent,that we get very frustrated at
individuals without taking justa breath, a moment, and saying,
(06:16):
you know, their intent is likelynot to hurt you.
SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
Absolutely true.
So everything in them saysthat's not true.
They're trying to hurt me.
SPEAKER_00 (06:26):
Yeah, yeah, because they are hurt.
And they have to place that hurtsomewhere.
And so you made a comment abouta person wanting to solve a
problem.
Like I'm trying to do somethinggood here when another
individual in a relationship, Ijust I just want you to hear me.
All I want you to do is listenand be compassionate.
SPEAKER_01 (06:48):
But again, that's why I go way back to one of our
other conversations.
That's competing anxieties.
If I have to sit and listen toyou, my anxiety is going to go
up.
And if if you hear me fixing it,your anxiety is going to go up.
So yeah, that's why I always tryto frame it as positive as you
can when it comes to couplescounseling, is that it's it's
competing anxieties.
We want the other to help us.
(07:09):
In other words, in our context,it's like I want you to move to
this side of the of thisstructure to tend to me or to
help me.
And then sometimes, yes, I wantyou to have a to solve a
problem.
So you have to be moredeliberate in in expressing that
need as well.
SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
I'm sure the number of times both of us would be
difficult to count where wherewe have brought to the attention
of an individual that they aredoing something that is just
consistently frustrating.
And the response is, well, well,that's not what I meant.
Absolutely true.
Yeah.
All the time.
SPEAKER_01 (07:46):
They want the their partner then to believe that.
And so there isn't the growthgets stuck because that's why,
okay, who who's going to shifthere?
If the partner believes it,well, then the guy gets to
continue to fix everything.
Right.
And if the other person believesit, well, then I just have to
sit here and listen to you,which more often than not is the
(08:08):
correct answer.
Anytime we try to push eachother to a place that's not
comfortable, it's, as I say allthe time, breaking those
patterns or integrating whatwe're talking about is just an
ongoing thing.
I mean, I had an example lastnight I was working on a piece
of equipment here at myproperty, and I was trying to
fix it, and yet I was it wasjust not going well.
(08:31):
And at one point I had to stopback, and the the way that I
show the responder is to scream.
So I I screamed what I just tooka break, stepped away from it,
and then went and got the what Ithought would be the right, the
right bolts, and was able to putit in.
But it was the same thing.
I had to I had to nurture myselfthrough this exasperating place
(08:54):
where I couldn't fix the problemlike I was hoping to, but I
needed to take a break and getmy wits about me, which is which
is the responder side, to justtake a break from it.
You don't need to solve this andthen go back to it.
So my point for bringing that upis it's that's the internal
journey.
If we pay attention all day longto those four quadrants of how
to access them, that's anexample of it.
(09:16):
Like when do we need to stepaway?
When do we need to take a break?
Sometimes we do thatunconsciously, but again,
obviously our desire is to makeit more conscious so that you
can, you know, the phrase liveintentional, which is kind of
what we're talking about.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:31):
Yeah.
And I think one of the greatbenefits of learning the
different styles is that youhave provided yourself with
additional resources to faceproblems that don't naturally
fit for your natural style.
Yeah.
And sometimes those shifts arecrucial for appropriate
(09:54):
outcomes.
I was talking with somebodyyesterday, and I used an example
that I've used with businessesoften, because there's a
correlation on the masculineside of this between those who
in their leadership style tendto be more autocratic and those
who are more consensus building.
And in many ways, that wouldcorrespond to an initiator tends
(10:17):
to be more autocratic and thestabilizer and the responder,
but the stabilizer would be farmore consensus building.
Well, if I'm in an organization,often employees, not all, but
often employees like moreconsensus building because it
gives everybody a voice.
But if the building's on fire, Idon't want somebody to say,
(10:41):
okay, let's everybody come onin.
Go get your hoses and your waterbottles and bring them in.
We're we're going to put somethings up on the whiteboard
here.
Everybody's opinion isimportant.
You want somebody who comes inand says, the building's on
fire, go to the exits, get outof the building now.
And so to be able to accessdifferent parts of who you are.
SPEAKER_01 (11:04):
Okay, your pants are on fire.
Write that down the board.
Pants are on fire.
Okay, good.
Any other ideas of what we oughtto do about that?
SPEAKER_00 (11:12):
Okay, sorry.
No.
So being able to access thesedifferent aspects that are
within all of us actually givesus many more resources to tap
into when we are facing issues.
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
And what's interesting is in those uh in
those uh really uh emergencysituations, you'll find the
natural initiator.
unknown (11:33):
Great.
SPEAKER_01 (11:35):
They will always step up and they'll take charge.
And that's why it's sointeresting and you know in
emergency situations, who setsback, who d who delays just
enough, who takes charge, whostands up.
It's just fascinating to see howyour natural energy will show
itself pretty quickly.
I don't want to be in those, Idon't want to really put I'm not
(11:57):
recommending you put yourself inthose positions in order to
diagnose yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (12:03):
I agree with that.
So give us some clues.
You work with so many people onthis model of how you help an
individual become more aware ofdifferent voices within them,
different ways to addressproblems.
How do you raise that awarenesslevel?
SPEAKER_01 (12:25):
One of my probably if I if I uh think about it, my
one of my more successful caseswas a couple that came in during
just after the pandemic was kindof getting better.
I mean, as far as we weregetting back to normal a little
bit.
Because a lot of couples reallystruggled because they were home
home together, and thisgentleman, he started drinking
(12:48):
too much.
And I was quiet about it, didn'tdidn't talk about it, but
obviously it caused a lot ofinterference.
So when they came in for forcounseling, I had seen him
before the before the pandemic,and then they started seeing me
again.
And I had introduced thismasculine and feminine energy to
the gentleman, and he was kindof like it made sense to him,
(13:09):
but he wasn't really wasn'treally getting it.
And so we talked a little bitabout finally his wife brought
up the fact that he had beendrinking, he's he had given it
up, he was doing better.
And I said, You know, you know,you do know why you started
drinking, right?
And he goes, I was bored.
I go, okay, you're bored and youcouldn't work.
And and I said, Well, that'syour transformer.
(13:30):
That's the negative side of thetransformer.
And he goes, Oh, I mean thatstuff you talked about before
you have all that stuff.
And I go, Yeah.
So that's a perfect example ofyou were bored, you needed
energy, you couldn't go out anddo much, so you started
drinking.
It gave expression to this, thedis I would say the
dysfunctional side of thetransformer, because you
couldn't go create, you couldn'twork, you couldn't do those
(13:50):
things that was a naturalexpression of that, you couldn't
go hiking, all that stuff.
And he goes, Oh, so that's agood thing.
I go, no, no, it's not a goodthing.
I'm just saying that that madesense to him as to as I go,
okay, that was what you'retalking about.
And yes, when I was drinking, Ididn't think about anything, I
was just in the moment, youknow, whatever.
(14:11):
He he was he looked at as apositive.
Wasn't all that positive.
But again, I think the thequicker you're able to make
something that that seemsnegative, and you reframe it and
you say that's what thatexpression was, then it's you're
not shaming them.
You're not necessarily sayingit's a bad or good, you're just
describing it.
And for this guy, he was able toget it.
(14:33):
Plus, his masculine energyreally needed to be developed.
And so I said, Why'd you how'dyou get to the point where you
stopped drinking?
He goes, Well, it was it wasaffecting my life.
I couldn't, I couldn't hardly doanything.
And I said, Okay, so you realizeyou'd gone to the extreme.
And he said, Yeah.
I said, that's what happens.
And any of these quadrants wetalk about, in the masculine and
(14:56):
feminine, they have an ex theyhave an extreme expression.
And that's what the and that'swhat you were doing by drinking
too much.
So you had to get in touch withthe initiator or the masculine
side of you to stop drinking.
And he went, Oh, okay, thatmakes sense.
So when you start putting it inreal life context, I think
that's what really helps themrealize it.
And you you kind of take it outof the realm of the couple so
(15:19):
that you don't they can't blamethe other one or they did this
or didn't do that.
But you start really emphasizingthe internal work.
Because then I got him to thepoint where he could say, Oh, I
needed to be over here then,right?
And I go, Yeah, you need to bein the initiating.
Or you needed to be now, youneed to not drink every day.
So that's a stabilizer.
You got to implement what youknow.
(15:41):
So that really helped him fromthat perspective.
Yeah.
That was a long explanation, butNo, that's a great example.
I think that's that's thechallenge, really, is to put it
so realistically into their lifeexperience.
Another great way to do it, youmay do a lot of this where in
the context of their work, ittakes it out of the realm of
(16:01):
being at home and the thecontentiousness of the personal
side of it, so they can kind ofget it at work more as far as
how they interact.
And then you get the the the theenjoyable part is once they get
it, they can start identifyingpeople at work that carry those
energies.
And they now know how to talk tothese people more effectively.
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
Yeah.
It's a great point.
Because if you start talking thelanguage of the other person, it
opens up all kinds of doors ofcommunication.
It's so true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think one of the advantages ofengaging in conversation this
way is what you've done numeroustimes, and it's not to place
(16:41):
blame anywhere.
So often a response is not rightor wrong, good or bad.
It just is based on theresources you had at that
moment.
So it could have been that thedecision could have been better,
but you were likely respondingin a way that in the moment,
given the resources you had thatyou thought was the best way to
(17:02):
respond.
And one of the problems is thatif we don't have enough
resources, we don't have enoughinsight, we may not be able to
access a different perspective,a different way to look at
things.
And when you start learning howdifferent people see the world,
you go, oh, maybe there's adifferent way to look at this.
It can begin to change yourwhole perspective on how you
(17:25):
interact with others and how youlive in the world.
It's absolutely true.
SPEAKER_01 (17:30):
Which I think is the uh the best benefits of
understanding that we're kind ofall in this together.
Although I think we've we'vekind of forgotten that a little
bit.
So Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:41):
And that's part of the vilifying of the other
person is that which I don'tunderstand or that which doesn't
agree with me, I I make out tobe the evil side of this
discussion, when in fact, inmost cases, it's just a
different perspective.
SPEAKER_01 (17:58):
And again, my bias is that's just that's just a
projection of the denied aspectsof myself.
Yeah.
Basically, if I'm frustratedexternally with someone or some
energies out in the out in theworld, and I find myself hating
or really disliking whatever'shappening, my opinion is more
often than not, it's an internalstruggle I'm having that I don't
(18:22):
want to acknowledge.
And so I project it out into theworld, and then I have I have
hate in my heart, and I don'treally understand that the hate
is coming from within where Icannot access or do not have a
do not have a voice somewherewhere I want to have a voice.
And so then I project it.
That's why we follow who wefollow.
That's that's why we like thethe leaders we like.
(18:44):
We're projecting an aspect ofourselves.
SPEAKER_00 (18:46):
That's my belief.
Spot on.
Spot on.
So I'm gonna introduce anotherpathway for exploration that has
been incredibly helpful for me.
And when I work with individualswho are open to it, it begins to
expose some of those differentvoices within us that we might
(19:08):
be able to access.
And that's the characters thatappear in a dream.
Oh, good.
So if I'm working with anindividual and they have some
dreams that they're willing toshare and begin to move toward
the place of not externalizingthe dream and thinking that
those characters are propheticabout something that's gonna
(19:28):
happen with their family memberthat was in the dream.
But instead say, let's say thatthat person is.
SPEAKER_01 (19:34):
So Uncle George is gonna Uncle George is gonna pass
away and he's got lots of money,you know.
So That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
So why are you coming to me?
I I think you've got thisfigured out.
So the question then thatfollows is if that person is a
part of you, tell me a littlebit about what part that might
be.
Had a client recently that had anightmare that had been on her
(20:01):
mind for a long, long time.
Uh months.
Uh sometimes we have nightmaresthat stay with us for years, but
uh this one had been for months.
And it was all externalized.
That was what made it sofrightening.
And then to be again to posebecause she had never considered
this before, the possibilitythat those characters were parts
of her.
SPEAKER_01 (20:22):
Yeah, that's a horror movie.
It's a horror movie if youexternalize it and you write a
movie about it.
Yeah, that's okay.
Yeah.
I think a lot of movie ideascome from dreams.
I think you're right.
Yeah.
Anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (20:36):
But to begin to explore the male characters in
her dream and say, let's saythis is the masculine side of
you that's trying to express anan option, a direction for you.
And in the dream you walk awayfrom all of the masculine
characters and go a differentdirection.
(20:57):
Is there any voice inside of youthen?
And I can list the initiator orthe stabilizer if I want to get
that specific.
Is there a masculine voice inyou that that frightens you that
you feel like you need to walkaway to protect yourself because
it doesn't feel like safe space?
And why would that be?
And the discussion just openedup to this.
(21:21):
In some wonderful, wonderfulways.
So if you begin to explore theother thing that I do with
dreams is things that happen ina dream that you would never do
yourself in real life, and say,okay, so if this is reflecting a
part of you.
Yeah, it's great.
A part of you that you wouldnever admit in a disagreement is
(21:43):
actually inside of you, whatmight that say about the journey
that you're on?
And again, when you have thisdream and you point out, you
know, this dream was constructedfrom within you.
Absolutely true.
So yeah, that's that.
Yeah.
So let's talk about it.
SPEAKER_01 (22:01):
Sometimes I'm sure sometimes people believe that
the individuals they dream aboutthat that that person is trying
to get a message to them.
SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
Oh, oh, a hundred percent.
Yes, yes, yes.
And and in some ways it takesaway that mystique.
SPEAKER_01 (22:17):
Absolutely true.
Oh, you mean this is about me?
Oh, yeah, you're it's your headyou're dreaming in.
Okay.
Anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (22:26):
But it is a wonderful way to get in touch
with the initiator inside of methat feels a little more distant
that I don't know how to access.
But in the dream, I see ithappening, and it's not my ego
in the dream, my character inthe dream that's doing it.
It's this other character.
Yep.
Absolutely.
That character is part of me.
So it is a great way of.
SPEAKER_01 (22:46):
Do they res do they res do they resist that
initially?
SPEAKER_00 (22:49):
So it depends.
Okay.
Could it be like resistance andtherapy?
Yes.
But what's wonderful with dreamwork is it's very difficult to
disagree with the statement thatthis came from within you.
Oh, yeah, there's that.
That's true.
So it can be a wonderful toolfor exploring new expressions.
(23:12):
I find myself very often when Ihave, for example, characters
that are all of one gender in mydream, is in the morning I wake
up and I go, you know, I feellike that side of me is trying
to get my attention, that I amnot paying enough attention to a
(23:32):
voice inside of me that is, ifit's all female characters, that
it expresses that feminine voicein my life.
SPEAKER_01 (23:39):
What if the female, what if what if the female
character you're dreaming abouthas strong masculine energies?
SPEAKER_00 (23:45):
So that's fantastic because that speaks toward
integration.
And so it can either remind mehow important integration is or
a reminder that integrationtakes work, but it's happening
inside of me.
And so there is this moment toreflect and say, where in my
(24:06):
life is integration occurring,even though it may be difficult
and leading to more creativeresponses, because integration
speaks toward multiple voices ina process, a decision-making, a
planning moment.
SPEAKER_01 (24:22):
No, that's that's great.
Given I'm thinking about rightnow some dreams I've had with a
certain person in my dreams, andreframing it that way, they were
trying to get me to walk awayfrom some things that I didn't
want to walk away from.
If I took that symbolism, asyou're putting it.
(24:43):
Yeah, that's really interesting.
unknown (24:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:45):
That changes that changes the whole dynamic of how
you think about even theindividuals you're dreaming
about.
It's like, oh, they representthat.
And yes, in that context, atthat time in my life, I should
have walked away.
That's why they were walkingaway from me.
Anyway, that's just interesting.
That's great.
That's great.
SPEAKER_00 (25:03):
So that's one more way by which you can explore
these different voices withinyou.
Yeah, no, I think somebody wantsto.
Well, both of us, I know, hopethat to everyone who's
listening, this has beenbeneficial for your journey.
Yep.
This brings to a conclusionseason one for us, but we're
gonna come back in a short timewith season two and probably go
(25:25):
a little bit more in depthlooking at dreams and dream work
and examining some of the waysby which we can take that and
use it as a tool for personalgrowth.
And we hope you will come joinus in that new season.
SPEAKER_01 (25:39):
So you'll want me to start dreaming more actively, or
what would you like for me todo?
Start start writing some of themdown.
No, no, that's I'm sorry, thisisn't about me.
This is about uh other things.
But anyway, that's a greatthat's great.
I'll have to pay more attentionin some ways, which would be
good for me.
So good.
SPEAKER_00 (25:57):
Well, I I would hate to end the season on something
that's not true, because thetruth is it is all about you,
Jim.
SPEAKER_01 (26:04):
So you know, I I think uh I now have gone to my
negative transformer.
I'm gonna start so I guess I'llstart uh getting high.
Great.
SPEAKER_00 (26:20):
So be prepared for second season when uh we talk
about that with Jim.
All right, buddy, thanks.
Great to be with you, Jim.
Yep.
(26:43):
Well, that's it for this episodeof Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, Dr.
Shaley at AFCcounselors.com, orDr.
Kelly at in your dreams.coach.
(27:05):
Thanks for being here.
And until next time, keepgrowing, stay curious, and take
good care of yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (27:12):
Yeah, no, that's good stuff.
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams, where we
invite you into a space tocultivate greater awareness,
clarify your purpose, and expandyour fulfillment by exploring
the inner landscape ofpersonality.
I'm your co-host, Dee Kelly, andI'm joined by Jim Shaley.
Together we bring our experiencein coaching and therapy to help
(00:34):
you do some of your own work inself-understanding and personal
growth.
So, Jim, let's go over the fourpersonality styles that will be
for different individuals.
They may resonate immediatelywith one.
It may be that as they'velistened to us talk, that they
still struggle a little bit totry and identify where they fall
(00:57):
in this system.
And sometimes it's helpful toask somebody else, maybe listing
some of the characteristics.
Does this sound like me?
SPEAKER_01 (01:05):
Yep.
I think it's great to do alittle bit of review.
Because if people have listened,they might go, what the crap are
they talking about?
So we've been kind of all overthe map on some of them, I know,
but I think it's great to do ageneral review.
Again, the way I the way Iconceptualize it initially, or
that we've talked about it, isthat is the word stir?
SPEAKER_02 (01:26):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
Because as you kind of come to grips with all of
them, there's a stirring insidetypically.
And stir I've obviously standsfor the stabilizer, the
transformer, the initiator, andthe responder.
Those are the four quadrantsthat we kind of talk about
throughout the our discussion.
SPEAKER_00 (01:43):
Aaron Powell And let's break them down into the
two dimensions that we talkabout all of the time.
One is the dynamic energy thatis really focused on movement,
action, accomplishing things,productivity in many ways.
SPEAKER_01 (01:59):
Yeah, those that's the initiator and the
transformer.
SPEAKER_00 (02:01):
Aaron Powell Great.
The initiator and thetransformer are both expressions
of that dynamic energy.
And the static energy, sometimesreferred to as a stabilizing
force, organizing force thatbrings order and systems to the
world or to a family or to anorganization.
Those two are a stabilizer andthe responder.
SPEAKER_01 (02:24):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
Yeah, those two.
So the other dimension that weoften talk about is the
masculine expression and thefeminine expression, which we've
said many times, but is alwaysworth repeating.
SPEAKER_01 (02:35):
It's always worth repeating.
It's not male, female.
Absolutely true.
SPEAKER_00 (02:38):
Yeah.
So all of us have within us anexpression of masculine and
feminine approaches.
And let's do that same division.
Those that would look far moremasculine in nature concern
themselves generally with whatkinds of things?
SPEAKER_01 (02:56):
The stabilizer and the initiator?
SPEAKER_00 (02:58):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (02:59):
Yeah.
It's basically bringingstructure to things or uh the
initiator basically wouldimplement a plan.
The interesting thing about thatis oftentimes the initiator
needs to work cooperatively withthe transformer who sees who
sees new ways of doing things.
And so the transformer is verycreative but have a hard time
(03:21):
following through.
So they actually need theinitiating energy.
And some people are are giftedenough to have both those, so
then they're they're able toreally implement the things that
they create.
Whereas some people are ideapeople and they'll surround
themselves with people that thatinitiate and to and and
implement.
So and then the stabilizer kindof all does the same thing in a
(03:44):
different way where they they itput in place structures and
systems to get to of order toget things done as well.
But they all but again, that'swhy it's so important to see how
they work together.
Because without the thenurturing of the responder and
the creativity of thetransformer, lots of times the
(04:05):
initiator and the stabilizerdon't have anything to do.
SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
So the initiator and the stabilizer, this masculine
expression of who we are isoften concerned with simply
accomplishing tasks.
(04:31):
And uh both relationships withindividuals, but sometimes also
relationships with the world,with nature, with those kinds of
things.
It's relational-oriented.
Yeah.
So those individuals canaccomplish tasks, but it's also
pardon me, it's always withrelationships in mind.
I'm accomplishing things.
SPEAKER_01 (04:53):
Whereas the initiator and the and the
stabilizer, they don't tend tothe relationship as much.
Now they would say, it's likethe classic thing with couples
counseling, is that the thefeminine or the woman in this
case will want to ventfrustrations and the man will
want to fix it.
They'll jump into the masculinemode.
(05:13):
I mean, their intention is tohelp.
So they would say, no, I'mtrying to help.
When really they're just tryingto get the thing solved.
So they don't have to haveanxiety about it, probably if I
had to do a deeper dive of that.
But again, that's masculineenergy.
I just want to take care of it.
Whereas they would make a casethat, no, this is trying to help
her.
Whereas a feminine would go, no,you're not helping at all.
(05:35):
I just want you to listen.
They want they want you toactually go into the responder
mode and just listen andnurture.
And so if you pay attention tothe dynamics, you can see where
you're trying to push each otherto the place where you want them
to be because you haven'tdeveloped that side of yourself
yet, or it could be a number ofreasons.
SPEAKER_00 (05:52):
Yeah.
I feel like I often have to whenworking with individuals who are
in relationship and they'restruggling with conflict, or
when I'm working with couples,that I often have to bring up
the issue of implied intent,that we get very frustrated at
individuals without taking justa breath, a moment, and saying,
(06:16):
you know, their intent is likelynot to hurt you.
SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
Absolutely true.
So everything in them saysthat's not true.
They're trying to hurt me.
SPEAKER_00 (06:26):
Yeah, yeah, because they are hurt.
And they have to place that hurtsomewhere.
And so you made a comment abouta person wanting to solve a
problem.
Like I'm trying to do somethinggood here when another
individual in a relationship, Ijust I just want you to hear me.
All I want you to do is listenand be compassionate.
SPEAKER_01 (06:48):
But again, that's why I go way back to one of our
other conversations.
That's competing anxieties.
If I have to sit and listen toyou, my anxiety is going to go
up.
And if if you hear me fixing it,your anxiety is going to go up.
So yeah, that's why I always tryto frame it as positive as you
can when it comes to couplescounseling, is that it's it's
competing anxieties.
We want the other to help us.
(07:09):
In other words, in our context,it's like I want you to move to
this side of the of thisstructure to tend to me or to
help me.
And then sometimes, yes, I wantyou to have a to solve a
problem.
So you have to be moredeliberate in in expressing that
need as well.
SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
I'm sure the number of times both of us would be
difficult to count where wherewe have brought to the attention
of an individual that they aredoing something that is just
consistently frustrating.
And the response is, well, well,that's not what I meant.
Absolutely true.
Yeah.
All the time.
SPEAKER_01 (07:46):
They want the their partner then to believe that.
And so there isn't the growthgets stuck because that's why,
okay, who who's going to shifthere?
If the partner believes it,well, then the guy gets to
continue to fix everything.
Right.
And if the other person believesit, well, then I just have to
sit here and listen to you,which more often than not is the
(08:08):
correct answer.
Anytime we try to push eachother to a place that's not
comfortable, it's, as I say allthe time, breaking those
patterns or integrating whatwe're talking about is just an
ongoing thing.
I mean, I had an example lastnight I was working on a piece
of equipment here at myproperty, and I was trying to
fix it, and yet I was it wasjust not going well.
(08:31):
And at one point I had to stopback, and the the way that I
show the responder is to scream.
So I I screamed what I just tooka break, stepped away from it,
and then went and got the what Ithought would be the right, the
right bolts, and was able to putit in.
But it was the same thing.
I had to I had to nurture myselfthrough this exasperating place
(08:54):
where I couldn't fix the problemlike I was hoping to, but I
needed to take a break and getmy wits about me, which is which
is the responder side, to justtake a break from it.
You don't need to solve this andthen go back to it.
So my point for bringing that upis it's that's the internal
journey.
If we pay attention all day longto those four quadrants of how
to access them, that's anexample of it.
(09:16):
Like when do we need to stepaway?
When do we need to take a break?
Sometimes we do thatunconsciously, but again,
obviously our desire is to makeit more conscious so that you
can, you know, the phrase liveintentional, which is kind of
what we're talking about.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:31):
Yeah.
And I think one of the greatbenefits of learning the
different styles is that youhave provided yourself with
additional resources to faceproblems that don't naturally
fit for your natural style.
Yeah.
And sometimes those shifts arecrucial for appropriate
(09:54):
outcomes.
I was talking with somebodyyesterday, and I used an example
that I've used with businessesoften, because there's a
correlation on the masculineside of this between those who
in their leadership style tendto be more autocratic and those
who are more consensus building.
And in many ways, that wouldcorrespond to an initiator tends
(10:17):
to be more autocratic and thestabilizer and the responder,
but the stabilizer would be farmore consensus building.
Well, if I'm in an organization,often employees, not all, but
often employees like moreconsensus building because it
gives everybody a voice.
But if the building's on fire, Idon't want somebody to say,
(10:41):
okay, let's everybody come onin.
Go get your hoses and your waterbottles and bring them in.
We're we're going to put somethings up on the whiteboard
here.
Everybody's opinion isimportant.
You want somebody who comes inand says, the building's on
fire, go to the exits, get outof the building now.
And so to be able to accessdifferent parts of who you are.
SPEAKER_01 (11:04):
Okay, your pants are on fire.
Write that down the board.
Pants are on fire.
Okay, good.
Any other ideas of what we oughtto do about that?
SPEAKER_00 (11:12):
Okay, sorry.
No.
So being able to access thesedifferent aspects that are
within all of us actually givesus many more resources to tap
into when we are facing issues.
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
And what's interesting is in those uh in
those uh really uh emergencysituations, you'll find the
natural initiator.
unknown (11:33):
Great.
SPEAKER_01 (11:35):
They will always step up and they'll take charge.
And that's why it's sointeresting and you know in
emergency situations, who setsback, who d who delays just
enough, who takes charge, whostands up.
It's just fascinating to see howyour natural energy will show
itself pretty quickly.
I don't want to be in those, Idon't want to really put I'm not
(11:57):
recommending you put yourself inthose positions in order to
diagnose yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (12:03):
I agree with that.
So give us some clues.
You work with so many people onthis model of how you help an
individual become more aware ofdifferent voices within them,
different ways to addressproblems.
How do you raise that awarenesslevel?
SPEAKER_01 (12:25):
One of my probably if I if I uh think about it, my
one of my more successful caseswas a couple that came in during
just after the pandemic was kindof getting better.
I mean, as far as we weregetting back to normal a little
bit.
Because a lot of couples reallystruggled because they were home
home together, and thisgentleman, he started drinking
(12:48):
too much.
And I was quiet about it, didn'tdidn't talk about it, but
obviously it caused a lot ofinterference.
So when they came in for forcounseling, I had seen him
before the before the pandemic,and then they started seeing me
again.
And I had introduced thismasculine and feminine energy to
the gentleman, and he was kindof like it made sense to him,
(13:09):
but he wasn't really wasn'treally getting it.
And so we talked a little bitabout finally his wife brought
up the fact that he had beendrinking, he's he had given it
up, he was doing better.
And I said, You know, you know,you do know why you started
drinking, right?
And he goes, I was bored.
I go, okay, you're bored and youcouldn't work.
And and I said, Well, that'syour transformer.
(13:30):
That's the negative side of thetransformer.
And he goes, Oh, I mean thatstuff you talked about before
you have all that stuff.
And I go, Yeah.
So that's a perfect example ofyou were bored, you needed
energy, you couldn't go out anddo much, so you started
drinking.
It gave expression to this, thedis I would say the
dysfunctional side of thetransformer, because you
couldn't go create, you couldn'twork, you couldn't do those
(13:50):
things that was a naturalexpression of that, you couldn't
go hiking, all that stuff.
And he goes, Oh, so that's agood thing.
I go, no, no, it's not a goodthing.
I'm just saying that that madesense to him as to as I go,
okay, that was what you'retalking about.
And yes, when I was drinking, Ididn't think about anything, I
was just in the moment, youknow, whatever.
(14:11):
He he was he looked at as apositive.
Wasn't all that positive.
But again, I think the thequicker you're able to make
something that that seemsnegative, and you reframe it and
you say that's what thatexpression was, then it's you're
not shaming them.
You're not necessarily sayingit's a bad or good, you're just
describing it.
And for this guy, he was able toget it.
(14:33):
Plus, his masculine energyreally needed to be developed.
And so I said, Why'd you how'dyou get to the point where you
stopped drinking?
He goes, Well, it was it wasaffecting my life.
I couldn't, I couldn't hardly doanything.
And I said, Okay, so you realizeyou'd gone to the extreme.
And he said, Yeah.
I said, that's what happens.
And any of these quadrants wetalk about, in the masculine and
(14:56):
feminine, they have an ex theyhave an extreme expression.
And that's what the and that'swhat you were doing by drinking
too much.
So you had to get in touch withthe initiator or the masculine
side of you to stop drinking.
And he went, Oh, okay, thatmakes sense.
So when you start putting it inreal life context, I think
that's what really helps themrealize it.
And you you kind of take it outof the realm of the couple so
(15:19):
that you don't they can't blamethe other one or they did this
or didn't do that.
But you start really emphasizingthe internal work.
Because then I got him to thepoint where he could say, Oh, I
needed to be over here then,right?
And I go, Yeah, you need to bein the initiating.
Or you needed to be now, youneed to not drink every day.
So that's a stabilizer.
You got to implement what youknow.
(15:41):
So that really helped him fromthat perspective.
Yeah.
That was a long explanation, butNo, that's a great example.
I think that's that's thechallenge, really, is to put it
so realistically into their lifeexperience.
Another great way to do it, youmay do a lot of this where in
the context of their work, ittakes it out of the realm of
(16:01):
being at home and the thecontentiousness of the personal
side of it, so they can kind ofget it at work more as far as
how they interact.
And then you get the the the theenjoyable part is once they get
it, they can start identifyingpeople at work that carry those
energies.
And they now know how to talk tothese people more effectively.
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
Yeah.
It's a great point.
Because if you start talking thelanguage of the other person, it
opens up all kinds of doors ofcommunication.
It's so true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think one of the advantages ofengaging in conversation this
way is what you've done numeroustimes, and it's not to place
(16:41):
blame anywhere.
So often a response is not rightor wrong, good or bad.
It just is based on theresources you had at that
moment.
So it could have been that thedecision could have been better,
but you were likely respondingin a way that in the moment,
given the resources you had thatyou thought was the best way to
(17:02):
respond.
And one of the problems is thatif we don't have enough
resources, we don't have enoughinsight, we may not be able to
access a different perspective,a different way to look at
things.
And when you start learning howdifferent people see the world,
you go, oh, maybe there's adifferent way to look at this.
It can begin to change yourwhole perspective on how you
(17:25):
interact with others and how youlive in the world.
It's absolutely true.
SPEAKER_01 (17:30):
Which I think is the uh the best benefits of
understanding that we're kind ofall in this together.
Although I think we've we'vekind of forgotten that a little
bit.
So Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:41):
And that's part of the vilifying of the other
person is that which I don'tunderstand or that which doesn't
agree with me, I I make out tobe the evil side of this
discussion, when in fact, inmost cases, it's just a
different perspective.
SPEAKER_01 (17:58):
And again, my bias is that's just that's just a
projection of the denied aspectsof myself.
Yeah.
Basically, if I'm frustratedexternally with someone or some
energies out in the out in theworld, and I find myself hating
or really disliking whatever'shappening, my opinion is more
often than not, it's an internalstruggle I'm having that I don't
(18:22):
want to acknowledge.
And so I project it out into theworld, and then I have I have
hate in my heart, and I don'treally understand that the hate
is coming from within where Icannot access or do not have a
do not have a voice somewherewhere I want to have a voice.
And so then I project it.
That's why we follow who wefollow.
That's that's why we like thethe leaders we like.
(18:44):
We're projecting an aspect ofourselves.
SPEAKER_00 (18:46):
That's my belief.
Spot on.
Spot on.
So I'm gonna introduce anotherpathway for exploration that has
been incredibly helpful for me.
And when I work with individualswho are open to it, it begins to
expose some of those differentvoices within us that we might
(19:08):
be able to access.
And that's the characters thatappear in a dream.
Oh, good.
So if I'm working with anindividual and they have some
dreams that they're willing toshare and begin to move toward
the place of not externalizingthe dream and thinking that
those characters are propheticabout something that's gonna
(19:28):
happen with their family memberthat was in the dream.
But instead say, let's say thatthat person is.
SPEAKER_01 (19:34):
So Uncle George is gonna Uncle George is gonna pass
away and he's got lots of money,you know.
So That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
So why are you coming to me?
I I think you've got thisfigured out.
So the question then thatfollows is if that person is a
part of you, tell me a littlebit about what part that might
be.
Had a client recently that had anightmare that had been on her
(20:01):
mind for a long, long time.
Uh months.
Uh sometimes we have nightmaresthat stay with us for years, but
uh this one had been for months.
And it was all externalized.
That was what made it sofrightening.
And then to be again to posebecause she had never considered
this before, the possibilitythat those characters were parts
of her.
SPEAKER_01 (20:22):
Yeah, that's a horror movie.
It's a horror movie if youexternalize it and you write a
movie about it.
Yeah, that's okay.
Yeah.
I think a lot of movie ideascome from dreams.
I think you're right.
Yeah.
Anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (20:36):
But to begin to explore the male characters in
her dream and say, let's saythis is the masculine side of
you that's trying to express anan option, a direction for you.
And in the dream you walk awayfrom all of the masculine
characters and go a differentdirection.
(20:57):
Is there any voice inside of youthen?
And I can list the initiator orthe stabilizer if I want to get
that specific.
Is there a masculine voice inyou that that frightens you that
you feel like you need to walkaway to protect yourself because
it doesn't feel like safe space?
And why would that be?
And the discussion just openedup to this.
(21:21):
In some wonderful, wonderfulways.
So if you begin to explore theother thing that I do with
dreams is things that happen ina dream that you would never do
yourself in real life, and say,okay, so if this is reflecting a
part of you.
Yeah, it's great.
A part of you that you wouldnever admit in a disagreement is
(21:43):
actually inside of you, whatmight that say about the journey
that you're on?
And again, when you have thisdream and you point out, you
know, this dream was constructedfrom within you.
Absolutely true.
So yeah, that's that.
Yeah.
So let's talk about it.
SPEAKER_01 (22:01):
Sometimes I'm sure sometimes people believe that
the individuals they dream aboutthat that that person is trying
to get a message to them.
SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
Oh, oh, a hundred percent.
Yes, yes, yes.
And and in some ways it takesaway that mystique.
SPEAKER_01 (22:17):
Absolutely true.
Oh, you mean this is about me?
Oh, yeah, you're it's your headyou're dreaming in.
Okay.
Anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (22:26):
But it is a wonderful way to get in touch
with the initiator inside of methat feels a little more distant
that I don't know how to access.
But in the dream, I see ithappening, and it's not my ego
in the dream, my character inthe dream that's doing it.
It's this other character.
Yep.
Absolutely.
That character is part of me.
So it is a great way of.
SPEAKER_01 (22:46):
Do they res do they res do they resist that
initially?
SPEAKER_00 (22:49):
So it depends.
Okay.
Could it be like resistance andtherapy?
Yes.
But what's wonderful with dreamwork is it's very difficult to
disagree with the statement thatthis came from within you.
Oh, yeah, there's that.
That's true.
So it can be a wonderful toolfor exploring new expressions.
(23:12):
I find myself very often when Ihave, for example, characters
that are all of one gender in mydream, is in the morning I wake
up and I go, you know, I feellike that side of me is trying
to get my attention, that I amnot paying enough attention to a
(23:32):
voice inside of me that is, ifit's all female characters, that
it expresses that feminine voicein my life.
SPEAKER_01 (23:39):
What if the female, what if what if the female
character you're dreaming abouthas strong masculine energies?
SPEAKER_00 (23:45):
So that's fantastic because that speaks toward
integration.
And so it can either remind mehow important integration is or
a reminder that integrationtakes work, but it's happening
inside of me.
And so there is this moment toreflect and say, where in my
(24:06):
life is integration occurring,even though it may be difficult
and leading to more creativeresponses, because integration
speaks toward multiple voices ina process, a decision-making, a
planning moment.
SPEAKER_01 (24:22):
No, that's that's great.
Given I'm thinking about rightnow some dreams I've had with a
certain person in my dreams, andreframing it that way, they were
trying to get me to walk awayfrom some things that I didn't
want to walk away from.
If I took that symbolism, asyou're putting it.
(24:43):
Yeah, that's really interesting.
unknown (24:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:45):
That changes that changes the whole dynamic of how
you think about even theindividuals you're dreaming
about.
It's like, oh, they representthat.
And yes, in that context, atthat time in my life, I should
have walked away.
That's why they were walkingaway from me.
Anyway, that's just interesting.
That's great.
That's great.
SPEAKER_00 (25:03):
So that's one more way by which you can explore
these different voices withinyou.
Yeah, no, I think somebody wantsto.
Well, both of us, I know, hopethat to everyone who's
listening, this has beenbeneficial for your journey.
Yep.
This brings to a conclusionseason one for us, but we're
gonna come back in a short timewith season two and probably go
(25:25):
a little bit more in depthlooking at dreams and dream work
and examining some of the waysby which we can take that and
use it as a tool for personalgrowth.
And we hope you will come joinus in that new season.
SPEAKER_01 (25:39):
So you'll want me to start dreaming more actively, or
what would you like for me todo?
Start start writing some of themdown.
No, no, that's I'm sorry, thisisn't about me.
This is about uh other things.
But anyway, that's a greatthat's great.
I'll have to pay more attentionin some ways, which would be
good for me.
So good.
SPEAKER_00 (25:57):
Well, I I would hate to end the season on something
that's not true, because thetruth is it is all about you,
Jim.
SPEAKER_01 (26:04):
So you know, I I think uh I now have gone to my
negative transformer.
I'm gonna start so I guess I'llstart uh getting high.
Great.
SPEAKER_00 (26:20):
So be prepared for second season when uh we talk
about that with Jim.
All right, buddy, thanks.
Great to be with you, Jim.
Yep.
(26:43):
Well, that's it for this episodeof Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, Dr.
Shaley at AFCcounselors.com, orDr.
Kelly at in your dreams.coach.
(27:05):
Thanks for being here.
And until next time, keepgrowing, stay curious, and take
good care of yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (27:12):
Yeah, no, that's good stuff.
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The Girlfriends: Trust Me Babe
When a group of women from all over the country realise they all dated the same prolific romance scammer they vow to bring him to justice. In this brand new season of global number 1 hit podcast, The Girlfriends, Anna Sinfield meets a group of funny, feisty, determined women who all had the misfortune of dating a mysterious man named Derek Alldred. Trust Me Babe is a story about the protective forces of gossip, gut instinct, and trusting your besties and the group of women who took matters into their own hands to take down a fraudster when no one else would listen. If you’re affected by any of the themes in this show, our charity partners NO MORE have available resources at https://www.nomore.org. To learn more about romance scams, and to access specialised support, visit https://fightcybercrime.org/ The Girlfriends: Trust Me Babe is produced by Novel for iHeartPodcasts. For more from Novel, visit https://novel.audio/. You can listen to new episodes of The Girlfriends: Trust Me Babe completely ad-free and 1 week early with an iHeart True Crime+ subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Open your Apple Podcasts app, search for “iHeart True Crime+, and subscribe today!