October 29, 2025 • 28 mins
Feminine, masculine and androgynous characteristics are in every person. This is not a description of male versus female. Rather it is an acknowledgement that human personality has a broad spectrum of expression, and we might benefit greatly from better understanding of those parts of ourselves that dominate our personality and those parts that have remained undeveloped.
Cohosts Dee Kelley and Jim Shalley provide some pathways for understanding and growth. Here are some of the issues they cover.
1. Each person should use language that fits their journey. We provide some categories and labels for certain personality expressions, but feel free to use labels that make the most sense to you. Personalize it.
2. The masculine energy is about accomplishment, and the feminine energy is about relationships. The masculine side knows what needs to be said, the feminine side will tell you how to say it tactfully.
3. The blind spot of the masculine is that regardless of what it does to people, they are going to do it. The blind spot of the feminine is to postpone a decision because it is going to hurt someone.
4. The divisions in our individual lives are reflected in the divisions in our families. And the divisions in our families are reflected in the divisions of our culture. If we want the culture or world to heal, we must first do our own inner work.
5. STIR: Stabilizer / Transformer / Initiator / Responder. These are the four personality styles. Stabilizer is both a static energy and masculine expression. Transformer is both a dynamic energy and feminine expression. Initiator is both a dynamic energy and masculine expression. The Responder is both a static energy and feminine expression.
6. The Transformer and Stabilizer have a natural attraction. The Initiator and Responder have a natural attraction. The challenge is to realize that we are attracted to the undeveloped traits in ourselves. An important pathway of growth is to explore and nurture the undeveloped traits within.
7. Stay curious.
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
I'm Dee Kelly and I'm here withmy co-host, Jim Shally.
We're a coach and a therapistwho love talking about how inner
work can help you live with moreawareness, purpose, and freedom.
Welcome to the podcast.
Welcome, Jim.
I'm glad you're here with me.
Last week we spent some timetalking about where we find our
(00:38):
energy, whether it's a dynamicenergy with a lot of movement or
whether it's more of astabilizing energy, a little
more static that organizesthings and how that expresses
itself in our personality.
SPEAKER_01 (00:52):
Yeah, before you before you uh finish that, it is
interesting that when I use theterm dynamic or static, uh
people react to the static termas though it's a negative.
Almost always.
And that's interesting becausedynamic, when I use that phrase,
they go, oh yeah, no, I'm I'mkind of that.
(01:13):
But if I use and say you're kindof static, it's like, well, what
does that mean?
I said, well, do you likechange?
Well, no.
Okay, well then that's kind ofstatic.
But it does have a uh so I likethe I like the stabilizing part
better or bring order to things.
I think that probably makes itless uh uh offensive to some
people that think that staticmeans I just sit around and
(01:35):
stare at myself.
No, it it means that you don'tlike change much.
And again, even that can be canfeel negative.
Uh and so I've I've noticed overthe years that when I use that
terminology, the staticpersonality will always kind of
scrunch their nose up a littlebit and go, Well, that doesn't
sound much fun.
I go, well, no, it it's it'slife-giving.
(01:58):
If you didn't have that that,then not much will get done.
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
So it's very smart of you not to affirm their
statement and say, yeah, you'renot very much fun.
That's true.
I I do like the term stabilizerbecause uh I think that very
often that is the staticposture's response to chaos or
(02:25):
to an overly expressed dynamismthat creates a wake that nobody
knows what to do with.
The stabilizer, the organizer,the nurturer comes in and
responds to that in incrediblypowerful ways and sometimes
world-changing ways.
(02:46):
Um you're right.
I get the same thing.
So I often tie stabilizer ornurturer to that static
statement because it is anenergy.
It's not an absence of energy,it's a way by which energy gets
expressed.
SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
Aaron Ross Powell And it's a and it's good energy,
again, used in good or not sogood ways.
I mean, it's useful or useless.
SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
Yeah.
Great.
So let's get into some of thedistinctions within that
dimension of how people expressthis with a masculine or
feminine energy itself.
So we often say this, but needsto be said it again, said again.
This is not a reference to menversus women or male versus
(03:30):
female.
Everyone has masculine andfeminine energy within them and
can access those parts if theydesire to.
Doing so, I believe, can createa more balanced approach to
life.
So I'm going to ask you, Jim,provide some distinction between
the masculine energy or approachto dealing with life and the
feminine energy or approach.
(03:52):
Not so much just yet whetherit's dynamic or stabilizing, but
just kind of the differences ofthe feminine within me or the
masculine within me.
What am I tapping into when I'mtapping into either one of
those?
SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
Uh very general generally, I would say that the
masculine is aboutaccomplishment and the feminine
is about relationships.
Obviously, accomplishment hasrelationship dynamics to it, and
(04:28):
the feminine has accomplishmentto it.
They're not mutually exclusive,uh, but they they really do
complement each other in thatsense.
So every masculine decision theywould say has a relational
dynamic to it, and everyfeminine would say every
(04:52):
decision they make has uh hasaccomplishment to it.
It's just the nuances of it, thebasic bias is the masculine
wants to achieve things, thefeminine wants to uh understand
how it affects relationships.
(05:12):
It's almost like this the themasculine knows somebody needs
to be confronted.
The feminine will help youunderstand how to say it
tactfully because it affects therelationship.
I would say people are using AIalmost in that form.
(05:33):
They will put in symptoms orthey'll put in ideas, and AI
will give a really prettybalanced expression of what
that's giving value to allaspects.
And I'm not sure this is adifferent discussion if AI
really is on the edge of tryingto merge the masculine and
feminine energies.
(05:53):
Anyway, that's a side, asidebar.
I don't want to take up on atangent of like, you know, we
are AI a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
Yeah.
Let me refer you to our otherpodcast, which is done
completely by AI and is far morepopular than ours.
SPEAKER_01 (06:15):
And uh quite insightful, I might say.
SPEAKER_00 (06:18):
Yeah.
Um so I'd like to step into thisa little bit further by maybe
identifying blind spots.
What's the blind spot ofsomebody who is more dominated
by a masculine expression?
And what are the blind spots ofsomebody who's more dominated by
a feminine expression?
SPEAKER_01 (06:37):
Aaron Ross Powell The blind spot of the masculine
is regardless of how it affectspeople, I'm going to do it.
An example of that would besomeone who buys a company and
fires everybody.
They don't they don't tend tohow it affects everybody.
Uh they would say they don'thave a heart, but that's that's
(06:58):
the extreme example of themasculine where they just
basically do it, don't care howit affects anybody.
The feminine, on the other hand,almost become immobilized
because no matter what decisionthey make, it's going to affect
somebody negatively, so thenthey don't make a decision.
Again, that's the extreme.
Or uh because it affectsfeelings, we need to give
(07:19):
everybody uh a break where wedon't hold people accountable.
We understand there's a deepermotivation, there's a lot of
pain there.
That's the extreme feminine.
Obviously, you can see theseparation.
So the masculine comes in to tryto make up for the feminine,
which is too relationally drivenby becoming, uh, we can't do
(07:41):
that anymore.
Let's just let's get rid ofthose people.
Uh whereas the feminine fightsfor, wait a minute, it's gonna
it's gonna hurt the wholefamily.
It doesn't matter.
They've gotten away with itforever.
That's that's kind of the theextremes of of those two
energies.
SPEAKER_00 (07:56):
Yeah.
Now I I I would suggest, ormaybe I'm asking for your
reaction, that the strong,dynamic feminine voice seems to
me to be a strong voice forsocial justice, a prophetic
voice, um an artistic uh slantto it, but an artistic
(08:18):
expression that might challengepower, that might uh give an
alternative view.
And sometimes that can have anegative effect on
relationships, but it is a, Ithink, a very strong, strong
dynamic approach.
SPEAKER_01 (08:39):
Well, you know, is that not true?
No, at the risk of uh becoming alittle political, it's happening
right now with the immigrationsystem.
I mean, sanctuary cities uh haveits place because they're a
reaction to the what some wouldsay the cold-hearted approach of
going in and ripping familiesapart and sending them back to
(08:59):
their home countries.
Whereas sanctuary cities weredeveloped to kind of give them a
safe space, regardless of what'shappening in their lives, they
can stay in this city.
So, yeah, we're at extremes withthat.
And that's what's so frustratingis what's the balance of that as
it plays out?
Well, that's a great question.
(09:20):
But you're right.
There is a lot of the good thatgets done when the when the
masculine that just wants to getstuff accomplished and done goes
too far, and then somebodyalways rises up to say, wait a
minute, how's it how is thisaffecting so many people?
Uh I mean, the the again, theextreme example was uh uh
(09:42):
whether it was open or not, Idon't know, the border, all the
crossings at the border.
It was relationally driven.
They they want to come to abetter place and have a better
life.
Well, along with that, there arepeople that are coming in with
nefarious uh uh thoughts aboutwhat they would like to do once
they get here.
So, what do you how do you sortthat all out?
(10:02):
Well, one side errs on the sideof everybody coming in and we'll
figure it out later.
The other side says, no, we needto figure it out right now and
we're not letting anybody in.
And in my mind, that's where theculture's at largely.
It's frustrating from myperspective to see it play out
so dramatically and be at suchodds that we can't sit down and
have a conversation that makessome sense for everybody.
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:27):
What happens on a large cultural scale is what
happens in individual familysystems, which is not handled
that very well, which I think iswhy the the larger expression is
be is taken over.
We've not done our we've notdone our own work.
SPEAKER_00 (10:46):
Well, yeah.
And I was I was gonna say it'snot happening in our own family
system, often because we're notdoing the internal work
ourselves.
Yeah.
So ultimately, if we're reallywanting to change the world, we
do so by doing our own personalinward work first.
Aaron Powell Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:02):
That's what we need to say every podcast, and then
everybody will go, hmm, yeah,it's a lot of work.
Okay.
Let's not do that.
Let's just keep doing the crazystuff we're doing.
It is absolutely true.
That's the unintegrated self isprojected onto the larger
culture, and it we we underst wedon't understand why all these
things are happening because theindividual hasn't taken
(11:23):
responsibility for their ownlives.
Okay.
Enough little sermonizing, butthat's yeah, that's my bias as a
therapist.
It's like, whoa.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
Yeah, I I agree with you.
I think it's worth saying everyepisode.
SPEAKER_01 (11:35):
Yeah, and I'm sure in dreams that tries to come out
in dreams.
That's why I think yourcommitment to the dream work is
so fascinating because that'sexactly if we don't deal with it
consciously, the dreams try tohelp us integrate that as well.
SPEAKER_00 (11:50):
And we have a cultural bias that dreams are
just the white noise of life.
Absolutely.
They're an evolutionaryartifact.
We don't need to pay attentionto the anxiety and you know
frustrations.
Yeah.
And the invitation is thereevery night because we dream
every night.
Very few people remember thembecause they don't think they're
(12:12):
important.
And I agree, and I appreciateyou mentioning it, that it's a
great way to start if you'rewanting to do that internal
work, is to become curious aboutyour dreams and work with
somebody who has enough insightto guide you as to how to do
your own work.
It's not universal, it's not thesame for everyone.
Dreams are, in my opinion, sucha perfect pathway because they
(12:38):
are subjective and they aretailored exactly to the person
who dreams them because they arethat person's dreams and guiding
us to greater balance if we can.
So let me I'm gonna take youinto the four quadrants that we
sometimes reference.
And I just want you to give uskind of a quick synopsis or
(12:59):
quick characteristics, what thispersonality might look like,
knowing that people fall allacross the board with some
combination of these differenttraits.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01 (13:07):
You might be able to help me out more with those,
because I think you have thelist in front of you.
I don't I leave mine at home.
So if I miss some, fill in theblanks for me.
SPEAKER_00 (13:17):
You bet.
We've been talking about staticand dynamic, masculine and
feminine expressions.
So let's just start with one ofthose combinations.
Let's start, and we talked aboutthis actually uh two episodes
ago, but let's just do a briefsynopsis of the masculine
(13:37):
static.
The masculine static, sometimesreferred to as stabilizer.
Right.
Give us some traits of thatindividual.
SPEAKER_01 (13:45):
The uh real quickly, the the four quadrants to to
remind the audience, I call themstir.
Basically, when you try, whenyou start balancing them out, it
stirs up a lot of stuff inside.
So there's a stabilizer, there'sthe transformer, there's the
initiator, and the responder.
Well, you the one you're talkingabout is the stabilizer.
Again, we mentioned it, I think,last podcast, that they bring
(14:08):
order and structure to things.
Uh a police department, firedepartment, they have
accountability as their route insome ways.
They hold people accountable towhat they said they were going
to do.
That's the stabilizer.
Uh it's a it's an absolutelyessential force in the world.
Uh it gets misunderstood becausethey feel like it's like it's uh
restricting people's choiceswhen really it isn't.
(14:31):
It's basically bringing order tothings.
If I had to sum it up, theystabilize the world.
They the the world is on itsaxis, it's it's rotating the
right way, all of that stuff.
That's what the stabilizer does.
There are some specific traitsthat that that expand that, but
I if I had to say that that'swhat really what it uh screw.
SPEAKER_00 (14:52):
So since we're talking about the contrast
between the masculine expressionof energy and the feminine
expression, let's stay with thatmasculine side and move toward
what I think you refer to as theinitiator, which is the
masculine dynamic expression,right?
Right.
Give us some characteristics ofthat approach to life.
SPEAKER_01 (15:15):
They see life as accomplishment.
I want to get stuff done.
So whatever I have to do to makethat happen, that's what I'm
gonna do.
Um so basically it's it'saccomplishing, it's it's
producing.
SPEAKER_00 (15:33):
Great.
Okay.
Shifting to the other side ofthis chart, if you have a visual
of what it might look like,we're gonna move to the more
feminine expressions, thefeminine energy of uh these two
things.
So let's talk about the thenurture or the responder is what
(15:53):
I think you referred to it asthe feminine static energy.
Give us some characteristics.
SPEAKER_01 (16:01):
Uh the term responder sums it up.
They basically respond to theworld and sees what needs to
have happened so that life canbe more comfortable.
Like an that they bring an easeto life.
In other words, what kind offood needs to be here?
What kind of uh environment dowe need to have?
What kind of aesthetics, what'son the walls, all that stuff is
(16:23):
a nurturing quality thatbasically sees how can I make my
life better because of thesurroundings that I have.
Now, internally, it basicallymeans you give people space and
grace, and you always err on theside of grace, so that whatever
problem they bring to you, youengage with that, with the
possibility of acceptance.
(16:43):
So if I had to say one word, itwould be acceptance.
SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
And I often think of uh any type of caregiver,
somebody who is naturally drawnto caregiving fits that
category.
And again, it can be a man or awoman, but it is that energy
that moves us toward responding,nurturing, accepting,
caregiving.
SPEAKER_01 (17:04):
Aaron Powell Yeah, I would say that the term that you
use, caregiver, probably sums itup a little better than the one
that I use, because I thinkthat's that that makes it uh
more universal.
It's like caregiving.
So I care for these people.
So when they show up to myhouse, I'm gonna have their
favorite drink or whatever,whatever the small little thing
is that lets them know thatyou're very you're very
(17:26):
observant about how to maketheir life better.
SPEAKER_00 (17:30):
And I might add, if you're on the receiving end of
that caregiving, that can justbe a wonderful feeling.
SPEAKER_01 (17:37):
Oh, jeez, you kidding me?
If you show up and the verything that you thought of that
you wanted there and you didn'tthink it was going to be there
is there, you go, oh, wow, okay.
I think I'm in love.
SPEAKER_00 (17:46):
This is the feminine energy also has a very dynamic
side.
Um, it is the transformer inyour stir.
Yes, it is.
It's a beautiful, it's abeautiful energy.
Talk about uh what that lookslike, how that gets expressed.
SPEAKER_01 (18:04):
Uh it's incredibly creative.
Uh it just sees thepossibilities that can happen.
It doesn't pay any attention tothe rules and regulations at
times.
Um it's again the dynamicexpression of that, like the
dynamic expression of themasculine, it gets stuff, it, it
like the masculine, it getsstuff done.
(18:26):
The the dynamic feminine in thetransformer basically just has a
great time.
It just embraces life.
It it knows no limits.
Uh, and that's why they'retypically married to a strong
stabilizer that tries to helpcontain their energies.
And it's it's the classic thingof the phrase that I came up
(18:47):
with years ago is uh grow upwhat every woman wants a man to
do, and shut up what every manwants a woman to do.
So I mean it's it's kind of a uhyeah, a little too casual
approach to uh to therapy, butit it often describes exactly
what we're talking about.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
Should that be the title of this episode, Grow Up
and Shut Up?
SPEAKER_01 (19:13):
Well, I've often told the idea that would be a
controversial yet, I think,pretty interesting book to
write.
SPEAKER_00 (19:22):
I mean, from my perspective, pretty true.
Let me stay just for a momentlonger with that transformer um
expression.
I have found in my work thattrue transformers sometimes have
(19:42):
very difficult lives because theculture, particularly Western
culture, the culture that I'vegrown up in doesn't know what to
do with a transformer.
That transforming voice thatsomehow doesn't see the the laws
of nature or the rules thateverybody else seems to see, and
(20:04):
say things that sometimes feelmystical or um off the wall.
And if that's the case growingup and they're not in a
nurturing environment, they cancome out of adolescence um not
feeling like they fit or havingbeen beaten up enough times that
(20:24):
they're reluctant to really givein fully to that energy.
Have you found that true?
SPEAKER_01 (20:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:31):
Uh uh again, to use kind of a current events, the uh
discussion the last week or soof the uh the disc jockey Howard
Stern, where uh I think seriousradio is not going to read uh
they're gonna offer him somemoney, but they don't think
he'll take it because he's had areally expensive contract the
(20:53):
last 20 years.
Well, if you were to do anythingabout Howard Stern is that you
know in the beginning he wastransformer extreme.
Like there was nothing he wouldnot try, he had nothing he would
not say, he would push all theboundaries.
Well, now the the observationthat's been made about him is
he's gone the other extreme towhere now he's very much a
(21:14):
stabilizer in his life.
So in my mind, that's that'swhat can happen from my
perspective, perhapsunconsciously, if one expression
is too extreme, almost alwayslife will come along and you'll
begin to express the other sideof it.
I think we almost always do thatas we grow up.
Some would say he he grew up andembraced uh a value system that
(21:37):
makes sense to him.
Well, that's back to shut upgrow up.
It's like, yeah, the transformerneeds to grow up to the but they
have a lot of fun and they pushboundaries and they make things
happen differently than what themasculine dynamic would do.
They would bring order and itwould look like they build
buildings, whereas thetransformer would probably uh Uh
(22:00):
build the building differently,put the wall over here or the
roof over here.
It would be different.
And that's why, again, back toour bias, which is how do you
integrate all those energies?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
Yeah.
You described a little bit theum attractions that we sometimes
have, the things that we mightbe lacking, we are attracted to.
I think the more obvious ones,though I think it happens with
all of these personalityapproaches, but the stabilizing
(22:33):
masculine energy often attractedto the transforming feminine
energy, embodying all of thosethings that the stabilizing
masculine is intrigued by butdoesn't really have.
It comes across as mysterious.
And how do you see the worldthat way?
And there's this attraction toit.
(22:55):
And that attraction isexternalized.
The challenge then is do theinternal work of finding the
voice in you that you'reattracted to that can bring more
balance to your life.
And conversely, that thetransformative feminine voice in
somebody attracted toward anorganizer that can take care of
all of those details that thatperson doesn't have time for.
SPEAKER_01 (23:19):
Right.
And then to our larger pointthat we keep making over and
over, which is if I don't dothat, then I will become if I'm
this the uh stabilizer with thetransformer, I'll become
exhausted because they will wearme out.
And then I'll get so frustratedthat they'll try to drag them
(23:40):
into therapy, basically have thetherapist help them see how
important it is to not at 45still want to do crazy stuff or
still want to get high all thetime or whatever, whatever that
whatever it is.
But again, the naturalattraction for the other two is
the initiator and the responder.
Right.
Because the initiator will goout and build a kingdom, and the
(24:04):
responder will absolutely enablethat and make excuses and say
you need to go to work.
That's great.
And they stay home and take careof the family, again, to be a
little stereotypical.
But again, that has an end pointwhere typically the responder is
exhausted because they haven'tgotten back from the masculine
dynamic that they wanted, whichwas tended to and cared for.
(24:27):
Remember, we give away what wewant, and again, that's the
extreme.
So when a woman comes in,typically it's a woman who's
depressed at 45 or 50.
I will tell you it's becauseshe's given and given and given,
and she hasn't gotten back whatshe wanted, and that's really
hard for her to acknowledgebecause she thinks she's doing
it genuinely and that she didn'texpect anything back from it.
(24:49):
And they it they would ratherget depressed or anxious than
acknowledge that, which isfascinating.
SPEAKER_00 (24:56):
Yeah.
Wow, that's a great example.
And I will add, I know you'vealready referenced this, but I
have worked with couples wherethat strong um initiating energy
is the female in therelationship.
Yes.
And the nurture is themasculine, and the dynamic's the
same.
It's just being expressedthrough different individuals
(25:17):
within the relationship.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01 (25:18):
And I think that's happening more and more, like
the stay-at-home husband whotakes care of the family and
takes care of the kids.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:25):
And in in same-sex relationships, the dynamic
exists.
SPEAKER_01 (25:29):
Absolutely true.
There's no real difference.
And I do think it's it that'sgood to re-emphasize the fact
that these are all a part of allof us.
Right.
You know, I have a bias where Italk in specifics as far as
male-female, but it really isinside of every individual.
How do we access it?
How do we know where to go atany given moment?
And also realizing that we're alittle older.
(25:54):
So if I'm, you know, 30, 35, uhtrying to sort all this stuff
out.
I have a couple right now thatare in their late 20s.
They have grasp a hold of this,and it makes so much sense to
them that they're just soexcited about how it plays out
every day.
And they have a pretty goodbalance now, but they can see
(26:14):
how it can get so much betterwhen they understand it more
specifically.
SPEAKER_00 (26:19):
Well, that's it for this episode of Therapy,
Coaching, and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to follow,
rate, or share it with somebodywho might appreciate it as well.
Thanks for being here, and untilnext time, keep growing, stay
curious, and take good care ofyourself.
SPEAKER_01 (26:36):
That was good.
I like that last part.
Say curi stay curious.
Um can you teach curiosity?
Uh wow, that's a great question.
I don't know.
That's just it it's almost abuilt-in trait.
SPEAKER_00 (26:51):
Yeah.
Wow, I I guess I'd never askedmyself that question.
I I do think maybe if you givemaybe uh in contrast, so it it
sets it up in context, meaningthat instead of being critical
or afraid of it, what if youwere curious about it?
So in a dream, you've got um animage that's frightening.
(27:14):
Um instead of focusing on thefear, what if you were just
curious about why it showed up,what it's trying to communicate?
So you give you curiosity incontrast to what it's keeping
you from doing it.
SPEAKER_01 (27:33):
Right.
It'd be a way of almost uhidentifying curiosity for people
that doesn't they don'tnaturally identify it.
SPEAKER_00 (27:40):
Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (27:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:55):
Well, that's it for this episode of Therapy Coaching
and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, Dr.
Shalley at AFCcounselors.com, orDr.
Kelly at inyourdreams.coach.
(28:17):
Thanks for being here.
And until next time, keepgrowing, stay curious, and take
good care of yourself.
Yeah, no, it's good stuff.
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
I'm Dee Kelly and I'm here withmy co-host, Jim Shally.
We're a coach and a therapistwho love talking about how inner
work can help you live with moreawareness, purpose, and freedom.
Welcome to the podcast.
Welcome, Jim.
I'm glad you're here with me.
Last week we spent some timetalking about where we find our
(00:38):
energy, whether it's a dynamicenergy with a lot of movement or
whether it's more of astabilizing energy, a little
more static that organizesthings and how that expresses
itself in our personality.
SPEAKER_01 (00:52):
Yeah, before you before you uh finish that, it is
interesting that when I use theterm dynamic or static, uh
people react to the static termas though it's a negative.
Almost always.
And that's interesting becausedynamic, when I use that phrase,
they go, oh yeah, no, I'm I'mkind of that.
(01:13):
But if I use and say you're kindof static, it's like, well, what
does that mean?
I said, well, do you likechange?
Well, no.
Okay, well then that's kind ofstatic.
But it does have a uh so I likethe I like the stabilizing part
better or bring order to things.
I think that probably makes itless uh uh offensive to some
people that think that staticmeans I just sit around and
(01:35):
stare at myself.
No, it it means that you don'tlike change much.
And again, even that can be canfeel negative.
Uh and so I've I've noticed overthe years that when I use that
terminology, the staticpersonality will always kind of
scrunch their nose up a littlebit and go, Well, that doesn't
sound much fun.
I go, well, no, it it's it'slife-giving.
(01:58):
If you didn't have that that,then not much will get done.
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
So it's very smart of you not to affirm their
statement and say, yeah, you'renot very much fun.
That's true.
I I do like the term stabilizerbecause uh I think that very
often that is the staticposture's response to chaos or
(02:25):
to an overly expressed dynamismthat creates a wake that nobody
knows what to do with.
The stabilizer, the organizer,the nurturer comes in and
responds to that in incrediblypowerful ways and sometimes
world-changing ways.
(02:46):
Um you're right.
I get the same thing.
So I often tie stabilizer ornurturer to that static
statement because it is anenergy.
It's not an absence of energy,it's a way by which energy gets
expressed.
SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
Aaron Ross Powell And it's a and it's good energy,
again, used in good or not sogood ways.
I mean, it's useful or useless.
SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
Yeah.
Great.
So let's get into some of thedistinctions within that
dimension of how people expressthis with a masculine or
feminine energy itself.
So we often say this, but needsto be said it again, said again.
This is not a reference to menversus women or male versus
(03:30):
female.
Everyone has masculine andfeminine energy within them and
can access those parts if theydesire to.
Doing so, I believe, can createa more balanced approach to
life.
So I'm going to ask you, Jim,provide some distinction between
the masculine energy or approachto dealing with life and the
feminine energy or approach.
(03:52):
Not so much just yet whetherit's dynamic or stabilizing, but
just kind of the differences ofthe feminine within me or the
masculine within me.
What am I tapping into when I'mtapping into either one of
those?
SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
Uh very general generally, I would say that the
masculine is aboutaccomplishment and the feminine
is about relationships.
Obviously, accomplishment hasrelationship dynamics to it, and
(04:28):
the feminine has accomplishmentto it.
They're not mutually exclusive,uh, but they they really do
complement each other in thatsense.
So every masculine decision theywould say has a relational
dynamic to it, and everyfeminine would say every
(04:52):
decision they make has uh hasaccomplishment to it.
It's just the nuances of it, thebasic bias is the masculine
wants to achieve things, thefeminine wants to uh understand
how it affects relationships.
(05:12):
It's almost like this the themasculine knows somebody needs
to be confronted.
The feminine will help youunderstand how to say it
tactfully because it affects therelationship.
I would say people are using AIalmost in that form.
(05:33):
They will put in symptoms orthey'll put in ideas, and AI
will give a really prettybalanced expression of what
that's giving value to allaspects.
And I'm not sure this is adifferent discussion if AI
really is on the edge of tryingto merge the masculine and
feminine energies.
(05:53):
Anyway, that's a side, asidebar.
I don't want to take up on atangent of like, you know, we
are AI a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
Yeah.
Let me refer you to our otherpodcast, which is done
completely by AI and is far morepopular than ours.
SPEAKER_01 (06:15):
And uh quite insightful, I might say.
SPEAKER_00 (06:18):
Yeah.
Um so I'd like to step into thisa little bit further by maybe
identifying blind spots.
What's the blind spot ofsomebody who is more dominated
by a masculine expression?
And what are the blind spots ofsomebody who's more dominated by
a feminine expression?
SPEAKER_01 (06:37):
Aaron Ross Powell The blind spot of the masculine
is regardless of how it affectspeople, I'm going to do it.
An example of that would besomeone who buys a company and
fires everybody.
They don't they don't tend tohow it affects everybody.
Uh they would say they don'thave a heart, but that's that's
(06:58):
the extreme example of themasculine where they just
basically do it, don't care howit affects anybody.
The feminine, on the other hand,almost become immobilized
because no matter what decisionthey make, it's going to affect
somebody negatively, so thenthey don't make a decision.
Again, that's the extreme.
Or uh because it affectsfeelings, we need to give
(07:19):
everybody uh a break where wedon't hold people accountable.
We understand there's a deepermotivation, there's a lot of
pain there.
That's the extreme feminine.
Obviously, you can see theseparation.
So the masculine comes in to tryto make up for the feminine,
which is too relationally drivenby becoming, uh, we can't do
(07:41):
that anymore.
Let's just let's get rid ofthose people.
Uh whereas the feminine fightsfor, wait a minute, it's gonna
it's gonna hurt the wholefamily.
It doesn't matter.
They've gotten away with itforever.
That's that's kind of the theextremes of of those two
energies.
SPEAKER_00 (07:56):
Yeah.
Now I I I would suggest, ormaybe I'm asking for your
reaction, that the strong,dynamic feminine voice seems to
me to be a strong voice forsocial justice, a prophetic
voice, um an artistic uh slantto it, but an artistic
(08:18):
expression that might challengepower, that might uh give an
alternative view.
And sometimes that can have anegative effect on
relationships, but it is a, Ithink, a very strong, strong
dynamic approach.
SPEAKER_01 (08:39):
Well, you know, is that not true?
No, at the risk of uh becoming alittle political, it's happening
right now with the immigrationsystem.
I mean, sanctuary cities uh haveits place because they're a
reaction to the what some wouldsay the cold-hearted approach of
going in and ripping familiesapart and sending them back to
(08:59):
their home countries.
Whereas sanctuary cities weredeveloped to kind of give them a
safe space, regardless of what'shappening in their lives, they
can stay in this city.
So, yeah, we're at extremes withthat.
And that's what's so frustratingis what's the balance of that as
it plays out?
Well, that's a great question.
(09:20):
But you're right.
There is a lot of the good thatgets done when the when the
masculine that just wants to getstuff accomplished and done goes
too far, and then somebodyalways rises up to say, wait a
minute, how's it how is thisaffecting so many people?
Uh I mean, the the again, theextreme example was uh uh
(09:42):
whether it was open or not, Idon't know, the border, all the
crossings at the border.
It was relationally driven.
They they want to come to abetter place and have a better
life.
Well, along with that, there arepeople that are coming in with
nefarious uh uh thoughts aboutwhat they would like to do once
they get here.
So, what do you how do you sortthat all out?
(10:02):
Well, one side errs on the sideof everybody coming in and we'll
figure it out later.
The other side says, no, we needto figure it out right now and
we're not letting anybody in.
And in my mind, that's where theculture's at largely.
It's frustrating from myperspective to see it play out
so dramatically and be at suchodds that we can't sit down and
have a conversation that makessome sense for everybody.
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:27):
What happens on a large cultural scale is what
happens in individual familysystems, which is not handled
that very well, which I think iswhy the the larger expression is
be is taken over.
We've not done our we've notdone our own work.
SPEAKER_00 (10:46):
Well, yeah.
And I was I was gonna say it'snot happening in our own family
system, often because we're notdoing the internal work
ourselves.
Yeah.
So ultimately, if we're reallywanting to change the world, we
do so by doing our own personalinward work first.
Aaron Powell Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:02):
That's what we need to say every podcast, and then
everybody will go, hmm, yeah,it's a lot of work.
Okay.
Let's not do that.
Let's just keep doing the crazystuff we're doing.
It is absolutely true.
That's the unintegrated self isprojected onto the larger
culture, and it we we underst wedon't understand why all these
things are happening because theindividual hasn't taken
(11:23):
responsibility for their ownlives.
Okay.
Enough little sermonizing, butthat's yeah, that's my bias as a
therapist.
It's like, whoa.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
Yeah, I I agree with you.
I think it's worth saying everyepisode.
SPEAKER_01 (11:35):
Yeah, and I'm sure in dreams that tries to come out
in dreams.
That's why I think yourcommitment to the dream work is
so fascinating because that'sexactly if we don't deal with it
consciously, the dreams try tohelp us integrate that as well.
SPEAKER_00 (11:50):
And we have a cultural bias that dreams are
just the white noise of life.
Absolutely.
They're an evolutionaryartifact.
We don't need to pay attentionto the anxiety and you know
frustrations.
Yeah.
And the invitation is thereevery night because we dream
every night.
Very few people remember thembecause they don't think they're
(12:12):
important.
And I agree, and I appreciateyou mentioning it, that it's a
great way to start if you'rewanting to do that internal
work, is to become curious aboutyour dreams and work with
somebody who has enough insightto guide you as to how to do
your own work.
It's not universal, it's not thesame for everyone.
Dreams are, in my opinion, sucha perfect pathway because they
(12:38):
are subjective and they aretailored exactly to the person
who dreams them because they arethat person's dreams and guiding
us to greater balance if we can.
So let me I'm gonna take youinto the four quadrants that we
sometimes reference.
And I just want you to give uskind of a quick synopsis or
(12:59):
quick characteristics, what thispersonality might look like,
knowing that people fall allacross the board with some
combination of these differenttraits.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01 (13:07):
You might be able to help me out more with those,
because I think you have thelist in front of you.
I don't I leave mine at home.
So if I miss some, fill in theblanks for me.
SPEAKER_00 (13:17):
You bet.
We've been talking about staticand dynamic, masculine and
feminine expressions.
So let's just start with one ofthose combinations.
Let's start, and we talked aboutthis actually uh two episodes
ago, but let's just do a briefsynopsis of the masculine
(13:37):
static.
The masculine static, sometimesreferred to as stabilizer.
Right.
Give us some traits of thatindividual.
SPEAKER_01 (13:45):
The uh real quickly, the the four quadrants to to
remind the audience, I call themstir.
Basically, when you try, whenyou start balancing them out, it
stirs up a lot of stuff inside.
So there's a stabilizer, there'sthe transformer, there's the
initiator, and the responder.
Well, you the one you're talkingabout is the stabilizer.
Again, we mentioned it, I think,last podcast, that they bring
(14:08):
order and structure to things.
Uh a police department, firedepartment, they have
accountability as their route insome ways.
They hold people accountable towhat they said they were going
to do.
That's the stabilizer.
Uh it's a it's an absolutelyessential force in the world.
Uh it gets misunderstood becausethey feel like it's like it's uh
restricting people's choiceswhen really it isn't.
(14:31):
It's basically bringing order tothings.
If I had to sum it up, theystabilize the world.
They the the world is on itsaxis, it's it's rotating the
right way, all of that stuff.
That's what the stabilizer does.
There are some specific traitsthat that that expand that, but
I if I had to say that that'swhat really what it uh screw.
SPEAKER_00 (14:52):
So since we're talking about the contrast
between the masculine expressionof energy and the feminine
expression, let's stay with thatmasculine side and move toward
what I think you refer to as theinitiator, which is the
masculine dynamic expression,right?
Right.
Give us some characteristics ofthat approach to life.
SPEAKER_01 (15:15):
They see life as accomplishment.
I want to get stuff done.
So whatever I have to do to makethat happen, that's what I'm
gonna do.
Um so basically it's it'saccomplishing, it's it's
producing.
SPEAKER_00 (15:33):
Great.
Okay.
Shifting to the other side ofthis chart, if you have a visual
of what it might look like,we're gonna move to the more
feminine expressions, thefeminine energy of uh these two
things.
So let's talk about the thenurture or the responder is what
(15:53):
I think you referred to it asthe feminine static energy.
Give us some characteristics.
SPEAKER_01 (16:01):
Uh the term responder sums it up.
They basically respond to theworld and sees what needs to
have happened so that life canbe more comfortable.
Like an that they bring an easeto life.
In other words, what kind offood needs to be here?
What kind of uh environment dowe need to have?
What kind of aesthetics, what'son the walls, all that stuff is
(16:23):
a nurturing quality thatbasically sees how can I make my
life better because of thesurroundings that I have.
Now, internally, it basicallymeans you give people space and
grace, and you always err on theside of grace, so that whatever
problem they bring to you, youengage with that, with the
possibility of acceptance.
(16:43):
So if I had to say one word, itwould be acceptance.
SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
And I often think of uh any type of caregiver,
somebody who is naturally drawnto caregiving fits that
category.
And again, it can be a man or awoman, but it is that energy
that moves us toward responding,nurturing, accepting,
caregiving.
SPEAKER_01 (17:04):
Aaron Powell Yeah, I would say that the term that you
use, caregiver, probably sums itup a little better than the one
that I use, because I thinkthat's that that makes it uh
more universal.
It's like caregiving.
So I care for these people.
So when they show up to myhouse, I'm gonna have their
favorite drink or whatever,whatever the small little thing
is that lets them know thatyou're very you're very
(17:26):
observant about how to maketheir life better.
SPEAKER_00 (17:30):
And I might add, if you're on the receiving end of
that caregiving, that can justbe a wonderful feeling.
SPEAKER_01 (17:37):
Oh, jeez, you kidding me?
If you show up and the verything that you thought of that
you wanted there and you didn'tthink it was going to be there
is there, you go, oh, wow, okay.
I think I'm in love.
SPEAKER_00 (17:46):
This is the feminine energy also has a very dynamic
side.
Um, it is the transformer inyour stir.
Yes, it is.
It's a beautiful, it's abeautiful energy.
Talk about uh what that lookslike, how that gets expressed.
SPEAKER_01 (18:04):
Uh it's incredibly creative.
Uh it just sees thepossibilities that can happen.
It doesn't pay any attention tothe rules and regulations at
times.
Um it's again the dynamicexpression of that, like the
dynamic expression of themasculine, it gets stuff, it, it
like the masculine, it getsstuff done.
(18:26):
The the dynamic feminine in thetransformer basically just has a
great time.
It just embraces life.
It it knows no limits.
Uh, and that's why they'retypically married to a strong
stabilizer that tries to helpcontain their energies.
And it's it's the classic thingof the phrase that I came up
(18:47):
with years ago is uh grow upwhat every woman wants a man to
do, and shut up what every manwants a woman to do.
So I mean it's it's kind of a uhyeah, a little too casual
approach to uh to therapy, butit it often describes exactly
what we're talking about.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
Should that be the title of this episode, Grow Up
and Shut Up?
SPEAKER_01 (19:13):
Well, I've often told the idea that would be a
controversial yet, I think,pretty interesting book to
write.
SPEAKER_00 (19:22):
I mean, from my perspective, pretty true.
Let me stay just for a momentlonger with that transformer um
expression.
I have found in my work thattrue transformers sometimes have
(19:42):
very difficult lives because theculture, particularly Western
culture, the culture that I'vegrown up in doesn't know what to
do with a transformer.
That transforming voice thatsomehow doesn't see the the laws
of nature or the rules thateverybody else seems to see, and
(20:04):
say things that sometimes feelmystical or um off the wall.
And if that's the case growingup and they're not in a
nurturing environment, they cancome out of adolescence um not
feeling like they fit or havingbeen beaten up enough times that
(20:24):
they're reluctant to really givein fully to that energy.
Have you found that true?
SPEAKER_01 (20:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:31):
Uh uh again, to use kind of a current events, the uh
discussion the last week or soof the uh the disc jockey Howard
Stern, where uh I think seriousradio is not going to read uh
they're gonna offer him somemoney, but they don't think
he'll take it because he's had areally expensive contract the
(20:53):
last 20 years.
Well, if you were to do anythingabout Howard Stern is that you
know in the beginning he wastransformer extreme.
Like there was nothing he wouldnot try, he had nothing he would
not say, he would push all theboundaries.
Well, now the the observationthat's been made about him is
he's gone the other extreme towhere now he's very much a
(21:14):
stabilizer in his life.
So in my mind, that's that'swhat can happen from my
perspective, perhapsunconsciously, if one expression
is too extreme, almost alwayslife will come along and you'll
begin to express the other sideof it.
I think we almost always do thatas we grow up.
Some would say he he grew up andembraced uh a value system that
(21:37):
makes sense to him.
Well, that's back to shut upgrow up.
It's like, yeah, the transformerneeds to grow up to the but they
have a lot of fun and they pushboundaries and they make things
happen differently than what themasculine dynamic would do.
They would bring order and itwould look like they build
buildings, whereas thetransformer would probably uh Uh
(22:00):
build the building differently,put the wall over here or the
roof over here.
It would be different.
And that's why, again, back toour bias, which is how do you
integrate all those energies?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
Yeah.
You described a little bit theum attractions that we sometimes
have, the things that we mightbe lacking, we are attracted to.
I think the more obvious ones,though I think it happens with
all of these personalityapproaches, but the stabilizing
(22:33):
masculine energy often attractedto the transforming feminine
energy, embodying all of thosethings that the stabilizing
masculine is intrigued by butdoesn't really have.
It comes across as mysterious.
And how do you see the worldthat way?
And there's this attraction toit.
(22:55):
And that attraction isexternalized.
The challenge then is do theinternal work of finding the
voice in you that you'reattracted to that can bring more
balance to your life.
And conversely, that thetransformative feminine voice in
somebody attracted toward anorganizer that can take care of
all of those details that thatperson doesn't have time for.
SPEAKER_01 (23:19):
Right.
And then to our larger pointthat we keep making over and
over, which is if I don't dothat, then I will become if I'm
this the uh stabilizer with thetransformer, I'll become
exhausted because they will wearme out.
And then I'll get so frustratedthat they'll try to drag them
(23:40):
into therapy, basically have thetherapist help them see how
important it is to not at 45still want to do crazy stuff or
still want to get high all thetime or whatever, whatever that
whatever it is.
But again, the naturalattraction for the other two is
the initiator and the responder.
Right.
Because the initiator will goout and build a kingdom, and the
(24:04):
responder will absolutely enablethat and make excuses and say
you need to go to work.
That's great.
And they stay home and take careof the family, again, to be a
little stereotypical.
But again, that has an end pointwhere typically the responder is
exhausted because they haven'tgotten back from the masculine
dynamic that they wanted, whichwas tended to and cared for.
(24:27):
Remember, we give away what wewant, and again, that's the
extreme.
So when a woman comes in,typically it's a woman who's
depressed at 45 or 50.
I will tell you it's becauseshe's given and given and given,
and she hasn't gotten back whatshe wanted, and that's really
hard for her to acknowledgebecause she thinks she's doing
it genuinely and that she didn'texpect anything back from it.
(24:49):
And they it they would ratherget depressed or anxious than
acknowledge that, which isfascinating.
SPEAKER_00 (24:56):
Yeah.
Wow, that's a great example.
And I will add, I know you'vealready referenced this, but I
have worked with couples wherethat strong um initiating energy
is the female in therelationship.
Yes.
And the nurture is themasculine, and the dynamic's the
same.
It's just being expressedthrough different individuals
(25:17):
within the relationship.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01 (25:18):
And I think that's happening more and more, like
the stay-at-home husband whotakes care of the family and
takes care of the kids.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:25):
And in in same-sex relationships, the dynamic
exists.
SPEAKER_01 (25:29):
Absolutely true.
There's no real difference.
And I do think it's it that'sgood to re-emphasize the fact
that these are all a part of allof us.
Right.
You know, I have a bias where Italk in specifics as far as
male-female, but it really isinside of every individual.
How do we access it?
How do we know where to go atany given moment?
And also realizing that we're alittle older.
(25:54):
So if I'm, you know, 30, 35, uhtrying to sort all this stuff
out.
I have a couple right now thatare in their late 20s.
They have grasp a hold of this,and it makes so much sense to
them that they're just soexcited about how it plays out
every day.
And they have a pretty goodbalance now, but they can see
(26:14):
how it can get so much betterwhen they understand it more
specifically.
SPEAKER_00 (26:19):
Well, that's it for this episode of Therapy,
Coaching, and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to follow,
rate, or share it with somebodywho might appreciate it as well.
Thanks for being here, and untilnext time, keep growing, stay
curious, and take good care ofyourself.
SPEAKER_01 (26:36):
That was good.
I like that last part.
Say curi stay curious.
Um can you teach curiosity?
Uh wow, that's a great question.
I don't know.
That's just it it's almost abuilt-in trait.
SPEAKER_00 (26:51):
Yeah.
Wow, I I guess I'd never askedmyself that question.
I I do think maybe if you givemaybe uh in contrast, so it it
sets it up in context, meaningthat instead of being critical
or afraid of it, what if youwere curious about it?
So in a dream, you've got um animage that's frightening.
(27:14):
Um instead of focusing on thefear, what if you were just
curious about why it showed up,what it's trying to communicate?
So you give you curiosity incontrast to what it's keeping
you from doing it.
SPEAKER_01 (27:33):
Right.
It'd be a way of almost uhidentifying curiosity for people
that doesn't they don'tnaturally identify it.
SPEAKER_00 (27:40):
Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (27:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:55):
Well, that's it for this episode of Therapy Coaching
and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, Dr.
Shalley at AFCcounselors.com, orDr.
Kelly at inyourdreams.coach.
(28:17):
Thanks for being here.
And until next time, keepgrowing, stay curious, and take
good care of yourself.
Yeah, no, it's good stuff.
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