November 13, 2025 • 36 mins
Episode 7: The Four Personality Styles
We continue the discussion of personality. We propose that there are four aspects or expressions of personality. Those four aspects include a dynamic energy, a static (or stabilizing) energy, a feminine expression and a masculine expression. These combine to create four different personality types. Most everyone has within them the possibility of accessing any of these types, though there is typically a dominant type.
The four types are as follows:
1. The combination of dynamic energy and masculine expression we refer to as The Initiator.
2. The combination of static energy and feminine expression we refer to as The Responder.
3. The combination of static energy and masculine expression we refer to as The Stabilizer.
4. The combination of dynamic energy and feminine expression we refer to as The Transformer.
Characteristics and traits of The Initiator:
-Sees a problem and moves to solve it.
-Looks for results, not consensus building.
-Oriented toward movement, action and resolution.
-Very individualistic, create a new path, break away.
-Others will often ride on the wake of The Initiator’s energy.
-They pay little attention to the negativity of others.
This is described as a masculine expression, but that does not mean “male.” Everyone has this type or expression within them. It can be a dominant expression or a recessive expression, but it is accessible to most all.
Characteristics of The Responder:
-They care, protect, meet needs.
-They often overthink.
-Care for the human spirit.
-There is a natural attraction between The Initiator and The Responder.
-Often exhausted because they have spent their life giving to others.
This is described as a feminine expression, but that does not mean “female.” Everyone has this type or expression within them. It can be a dominant expression or a recessive expression, but it is accessible to most all.
Characteristics of The Stabilizer:
-Love rules and regulations.
-Bring order to chaos.
-Often misinterpreted as controlling.
-Bring balance to The Transformer and The Initiator.
-They tend toward perfectionism.
-Outstanding at providing structure or systems.
Characteristics of The Transformer:
-Intuitive, creative, visionary.
-Don’t naturally consider the cost of the creative vision.
-Spontaneous, insightful, see the possibilities.
-Open to new experiences.
-Fun, often the life of the party, with few filters.
-Life is one big experiment.
-Natural attraction between The Transformer and The Stabilizer.
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:13):
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
We are so glad you've joined us.
My name is D.
Kelly.
I'm here with Jim Shaley, and weare discussing all kinds of
things that have to do with ourpersonality style, our growth,
self-awareness, and what itmeans to be in therapy and
coaching and deal with some ofthese things.
(00:35):
So in a previous episode, wetalked about the overall
structure of understandingpersonality, driven in large
part by a Jungian approach tothat, and using the notion of
the masculine and femininetraits and imagery that we might
(00:55):
use in our life and have withinus.
Again, we've said it many times.
It's not male or female.
This is not a gender issue oreven a gender identity issue.
This has to do with all of ushaving within us both masculine
and feminine characteristics towhich we give voice at various
(01:15):
levels and the positive outcomeof getting in touch with those
various aspects and giving voiceto them in ways that add to our
own creativity and expression ofall of who we are.
Similarly, a dynamic versusstatic approach to the energy or
movement that we have.
(01:37):
And that's where we're going todig in a little bit more, are
the various types that giveexpression to these things.
So I'm going to jump in, Jim,with the initiator, which is a
masculine dynamic style, andsome of the characteristics that
we might find in an individual.
(01:57):
And I know that we often talkabout these things as they
express themselves inrelationship.
The initiator, what does thatperson look like?
How do they present themselves?
Maybe what their life trajectorymight include to express this
type of approach.
SPEAKER_02 (02:13):
I think their central value or the thing that
really gets them motivated is tomake progress, to generate new
things, and to expand over whathas been.
They have similar traits ofbeing aggressive, assertive,
goal-oriented.
They they irritate, they conquerthings, they strive for
accomplishments, they pursueindividual interests, they go
(02:35):
their own way.
It's basically very egocentricin some ways, the prototypical
initiator.
They don't pay attention to whatis supposed to be done.
They just simply see somethingit needs to accomplish and they
go after it.
And I know that it it moves theculture, good or bad, in some
ways.
It's like a great king, abenevolent king, takes the
(02:57):
people into consideration.
A cruel king back in the MiddleAges, that they would just do
what they wanted to do.
That's that's the prototypicalmasculine.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (03:07):
In a just in a let's say, business setting, this
particular personality type iscertainly very task-driven,
right?
Yes.
To do lists, but the sense ofresponsibility is the sense that
as you said, they see somethingthat needs to be done and they
(03:28):
just move forward and expectothers to see that something
needs to be done and sometimesprovides the energy for that.
SPEAKER_02 (03:36):
Right.
They don't they don't see theneed for order necessarily at
that point.
They just have a goal they wantto accomplish.
And it's like the the famousdynamic when Steve Jobs came
into a meeting and they weren'tgetting this one thing
accomplished, and he just simplysaid, get it done, and he left.
And they figured it out.
(03:57):
So I mean, that's the that's theintensest initiators.
They just basically say, thishas to be accomplished, figure
it out.
SPEAKER_01 (04:06):
Yeah.
One of the individuals that forme I like to personify some of
these things and have faces togo with them.
And I know that a person that weknow through media or newspapers
or culture or TV is notnecessarily the way they are in
their private life.
And I fully understand that.
(04:27):
But in terms of how they presentthemselves in that setting, I
sometimes think of very familiarcharacters and how they might
fit and help me to think throughsome of those things.
One of the people I think of isMichael Jordan, out to win, and
it was win at all costs.
In a similar fashion as you justsaid, he was presented with that
(04:50):
old adage that there's no I inteam.
And his response was, Well,there is in win.
SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
And that was what he was all about was winning.
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
Yeah.
And it was very much a masculinedynamic movement that I saw
expressed, at least in hissporting life.
Have no idea what it was outsideof that.
I would also add, and tell me ifI'm wrong, but there is no
concern at all about consensusbuilding.
SPEAKER_02 (05:17):
No.
No, that's why it's it's oftencompared to dictat dictatorial
stances.
It's like they don't try tobring people in and have a
conversation.
They come in and say, hey, thisis what they they might act like
they do that, but then they'lljust simply say, This is what
we're gonna do.
They they feign the theinteractive stance.
It's like if if Jordan was on ateam, he might he might talk to
(05:40):
all of them, but then he wouldsay, Let's let's just do it my
the way that I think we shoulddo it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:47):
So to break that stereotype of it always being
masculine, it's a masculineenergy, but it's not always a
mask uh a male person.
Sorry, I had a tough timegetting that out.
Absolutely.
So I don't know, again, apopular personification, but
Oprah Winfrey was very much amove forward, push forward.
(06:12):
She accomplished tasks, got agot a lot done because she knew
what needed to be done.
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
It's very individualistic.
They break away from the groupand they chart a path.
And if they're if they're uhdynamic, like Transformers,
we'll talk about later, theywill pull people along with them
because they're so magnetic inin their approach to things.
But yeah, they're their basicthings is they want to break
(06:38):
away, create a new path ofsomething that needs to happen.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:43):
Yeah.
And as we mentioned in aprevious episode, there are so
many pe people that ride thewake of that type of individual.
That individual provides theenergy and kind of parts the
water so that others can ridethat energy in a particular
direction.
And sometimes that's how amovement gets started, is that
(07:04):
there's an electrifyingindividual that's able to do
that.
SPEAKER_02 (07:07):
It is.
And there the otherpersonalities we can talk about,
they come along oftentimes andthey don't they don't follow
along on the wake and they getbitter and resentful.
And those are the people thatwill leave a company and then
they'll trash the leader sayingthey were insensitive, they
didn't listen to anybody.
That's the other voice.
And that that's that'sinteresting dynamic in the sense
(07:29):
of that personality, they don'tpay attention to that negativity
at all.
They just keep moving forward.
It's got a great benefit, it'sgot a great downside.
SPEAKER_01 (07:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's I love that.
Two sides to the same coin.
It it often is that we identifysomebody who is in the
leadership position thatcharacterizes this or that
models it.
However, that person came upthrough the ranks often somehow.
(07:58):
And there are many individualswithin organizational systems,
and we're not talking aboutmarriage relationships, but also
in marriage relationships thatlive this way, and it doesn't
work nearly as well if you don'thave the power to correspond
with it.
SPEAKER_02 (08:16):
Well, that's it, that's a more expansive and
deeper conversation because whathappens sometimes in an
organization, you'll see someoneattach to a leader because they
know that when that leader isgone, somebody has to take that
person's place.
And so they will really beattracted to and kind of almost
worship that person.
(08:37):
And that person will then inturn turn to them and say, Okay,
I I I like this person.
I can see them taking the nextstep, but they're basically just
flattering the person in chargeenough to get to a place where
they might be able to take over.
And that's that's what peoplewould say, you know, climbers or
people that play the game, theyknow the right masculine energy
(08:58):
to attach to.
Oftentimes they aren't nearly asskilled as the person doing it.
SPEAKER_01 (09:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You also have teams thatsometimes are formed in any type
of organization, and the team isexpected to complete a
particular complete task orbring about some end result.
And somebody with this initiatormentality or personality style
(09:28):
will sometimes be a greatbenefit because they get the
group started and get moving.
Sometimes the individual can beincredibly irritating to every
other member of the groupbecause they're not listening to
other ideas.
And so, in that setting, thedisruptor, depending on how the
supervisor views it, is thedisruptor good, or is the
(09:50):
disruptor ruining the team,depends on how the trajectory
goes for that individual'scareer within that organization.
SPEAKER_02 (09:57):
The natural flow would be for the initiator to be
wise enough to include what wetalk about, which which is the
stabilizer part.
The stabilizer brings orders tothe chaos that the initiator
starts.
And so a good team, a goodleader knows they need that
person that will implement thethings or will take care of the
(10:20):
rest of the people, talk tothem, nurture them, whatever
that is, they know they need thestabilizing factor.
And if they don't have that,they're just an idea person.
SPEAKER_01 (10:30):
Yeah, that's good.
Good description.
The counterbalance at some levelis the stabilizer, but there's
also the counterbalance withsome of the feminine
characteristics that it's thatare more relationally oriented.
And I know that, at least myexperience, one of the questions
in relationship is asking theinitiator, but what do you feel
(10:55):
about this?
And the initiator doesn't evenunderstand the question.
It's like, I don't even knowwhat you're talking about.
We've got a job to do, we'regoing to do it.
What does that have to do withanything?
And the nurturer, the whichlet's talk about that one next,
is the one who's trying to bringto the mix this awareness that
(11:15):
not only does everybody aroundyou have feelings that are
affected by what you're doing,but you do too, whether you
realize it or not, is kind ofthe nurturer's approach.
Is that fair?
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
Yes.
An initiator's feelings woulddefinitely be like something has
to get done.
I feel an urgency to dosomething different.
That's a feeling on some level,but they wouldn't identify it
that way at all.
They'd be just put it into atask mode.
The other thing that's that'sfascinating about it is you see
it being played out all thetime.
The let's say someone comes inand buys a company and they fire
(11:47):
a bunch of people.
Well, if there's somebody onthat team that understands how
that's going to affect families,they will try to get the
attention of that person andsay, you can't, you can't do
this.
And yet the initiator will say,We we we have to downsize, we
have to make money, we have todo these things.
And so that tension is almostalways there, whether it be in a
business or even in arelationship, because that same
(12:09):
tension is in a relationship.
SPEAKER_01 (12:11):
Yeah, the classic response from an initiator in a
for-profit business setting isI'm sorry, but I answer to the
stockholders.
And I don't answer to theindividual families.
My task is to address the valueof this company.
SPEAKER_02 (12:26):
Aaron Powell And I think that's in some reason why
why nonprofits are formed.
Because nonprofits give more ofa feeling level to how it's
going to affect people.
SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
Yeah.
Great observation.
Let's shift then to in some waysto it there aren't really polar
opposites, but it's a different,very different place in the
spectrum of that nurtureapproach.
It's a a feminine static energythat brings a nurture and caring
to the world and expresses thatthrough their life.
(12:56):
So give us a little bit moreabout the characteristics of an
individual where this has beentheir life trajectory and this
is their primary way in whichthey present in terms of
personality.
SPEAKER_02 (13:06):
You're talking about the responder?
SPEAKER_01 (13:08):
Responder, yeah, who is a nurturer, sorry.
Yeah.
The responder.
SPEAKER_02 (13:11):
Yeah, the responders basically value is survival.
They want the species to surviveand to keep maintaining the
species, basically, for lack ofa obviously a word I can't think
of at this point.
They're always other-oriented.
They nurture, they shelter, theyaccept, they protect, they
(13:33):
affirm, they take care ofeverything, they anticipate
needs.
The classic example is theenabler that sees a need and
always meets it.
You never have to worry aboutwhat they're going to bring to a
party.
They will have plenty of things,they'll overthink everything.
They'll have the your favoritedrink there.
I mean, that's that's theclassic responder.
(13:55):
They take care of the humanspirit in a way that the others
don't.
They're always aware of whatthey could do to make life
better.
SPEAKER_01 (14:06):
For me, this one is summed up by the Mother Teresa
approach.
And again, I never met MotherTeresa.
I don't know her personally, buteverything that I have read and
all the statements that aremade, she is the one who is
going to take care of the needsof the world.
And she starts in Calcutta, butsomehow it just spreads
(14:26):
everywhere.
And that's that's kind of thepersonification for me.
However, I would also say that Ihave an uncle that fits solidly
in this place, went into acaregiving profession.
He was a physician, but hisapproach to being a medical
(14:47):
practitioner was nurture andcare and protecting and survival
and all of those kinds ofthings.
And his heart was socompassionate that he hurt
deeply for others when they hurtand wanted to somehow make a
difference.
So yeah, I have in my mindpeople that fit this to a T.
(15:09):
What are some of the problemsthat this type of individual
faces as they live out thispersona?
SPEAKER_02 (15:18):
That's a great question.
It's one of the hardest thingthings is to get someone with
these traits to acknowledge thedownside of it.
Yeah.
They usually come into therapymidlife, maybe in the late 40s,
early 50s, exhausted, burnt out,not understanding why they can't
continue to take care of thekids, the husband, the house, to
(15:39):
use the stereotype.
And I'll ask the first questionI ask is so what did you hope to
get back from all your work?
And almost invariably they say,Oh, nothing.
I didn't expect anything.
So you have to get through thatlittle bit of denial to realize
there was a transaction thatthey expected that they weren't
aware of.
And that's that's a big shiftfor them, and even to entertain
(16:02):
the idea that there wassomething they wanted to get
from it.
And I will say at that point,you always model the behavior
you want, even though you maynot see it in the moment.
And so they come in exhaustedbecause they have given way
beyond what other people havedone, and they've spoiled
everybody in their life.
So the downside is you spoilpeople.
(16:22):
You get them used to being takencare of.
And it's life-giving to theresponder on some level to do
that.
But it's also a different way oflooking at the narcissistic
behavior because it's all abouttheir need to do that to feel
significant.
And so typically in midlife,they come in depressed or
anxious, not understanding why.
(16:44):
And it really has been becausethey have overfunctioned in the
giving part.
So they've got to learn theboundaries, which is why the
boundaries thing of, you know,20 or 30 years ago was so big,
because they realized it was itwas okay to set a boundary and
say, I can't do that.
But it's really hard for them toshift that energy because their
natural instinct, like aninitiator, is to just take care
(17:05):
of everything.
And similarly, people ride thewake of that nurturer.
Oh jeez.
Absolutely.
That's why they get spoiled.
Just like an initiator who makesthings happen, they will
there'll be people that willjust ride them as well.
And make a lot of make money offof them in some ways.
SPEAKER_01 (17:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:25):
In that setting.
SPEAKER_01 (17:26):
But again, that's that's why it's a blind shade
going on in the background thatgot initiated by a remote
control in another room.
Sorry.
Jump back in.
SPEAKER_02 (17:38):
That's why what So that's why the natural
attraction oftentimes is theinitiator and the responder.
Like I said, I think we saidlast week, that's a natural
attraction because the initiatorsets the goals and the responder
helps them make it happen.
They will take care ofeverything, they will take
everything off the plate of aperson who has a goal to us to
(18:00):
uh to set to accomplish, andthey will make it easy for that
initiator to keep to work toomuch, whatever that is.
SPEAKER_01 (18:09):
So I know we are trying to stay with individuals,
but this setup seems too perfectto not ask this question.
This feels like a match made inheaven.
Both of them find the other oneincredibly attractive and love
to enjoy the characteristicsthat the other person brings to
this, and yet there comes a timewhere that is no longer
(18:33):
satisfactory.
What makes this perfect matchfall apart?
SPEAKER_02 (18:39):
Well, I would say because the responder spoils
more than the initiator, theyget exhausted.
And so they can't understand whythey're exhausted.
Then they'll start talking totheir spouse or whoever they're
they're in a relationship withabout they're just so tired all
the time and they aren't theyaren't being able to do what
they once did.
(18:59):
And again, they won't understandwhat's happening.
And then the the other partneroftentimes, if they're in
therapy, they'll come in andthey'll be asked to do things
around the house, to to beengaged more, to help clean, to
help do these things.
And that person will go, Well,that's I've never done that.
So and they won't get thebalance of that.
(19:21):
So typically I would say it'sit's the responder, on the other
hand, to be fair, the initiator,if they're out building their
kingdoms, oftentimes they'llengage in another relationship.
They'll have an affair,something will happen that will
get that person's attention aswell.
Because they they will havetaken for granted the person at
(19:43):
home taking care of everything,and they actually lose some
respect, as well as as theresponder loses respect as well,
because that person may never behome, never attentive enough to
the kids, all of those things.
Again, we're talking prettystereotypically as far as the
stereotype of the the husbandand wife or the that that that
marital relationship.
SPEAKER_01 (20:05):
Sure, sure.
It also seems to me that thereis a as we grow, we find
ourselves still attracted tothose things that are not
developed within ourselves.
And when our journey with theour partner never forces us to
(20:28):
address that in our own life,then there is an erotic
diversion, maybe is the best wayI know how to put it.
SPEAKER_02 (20:41):
Yeah.
So something external typicallywill happen.
I'll lose a job, again, I'llhave an affair, something will
happen.
Uh, kids will leave for school,I'll leave, I'll lose my
purpose.
That's a pretty common one forsome mothers.
SPEAKER_01 (20:54):
Yeah.
Okay.
So we've got an initiator, we'vegot a responder.
We've talked a little bit in aprevious session, but let's
review again the stabilizerindividual.
What are the characteristics ofthis individual?
And you haven't we haven'treally talked about how those
things develop from childhood orfamily of origin.
SPEAKER_02 (21:14):
Yeah, no, that's that's great.
SPEAKER_01 (21:15):
Yeah, because it could be genetics, it could be
learned, it yeah.
Yeah.
And certainly a combination ofboth, a predisposition to a
particular approach, but alsothe dynamic that you step into
as a newborn will affect how youdevelop some of these traits for
survival and how to cope withthe things that are unaccepted
(21:36):
by a family and what you do withthose things.
But let's stick with theindividual response, the
stabilizer.
What are some of thecharacteristics that help you
realize this is true aboutyourself or someone you love?
SPEAKER_02 (21:49):
They typically love rules and regulations, and they
bring order to things.
So they can walk into a chaoticsituation and immediately know
what needs to happen.
To bring order to them.
And they're really good at it.
They stabilize everything.
They get misinterpretedoftentimes as they're trying to
control things.
That's the negative side of it.
(22:11):
But really, they they provide anincredible service to the other
part of it, which is thetransformer, where they're so
spontaneous and and and unrulyin some ways that they they come
in and say, You can't you can'tdo that.
You can't do that.
And the transformer in thissituation will go, Well, why
(22:32):
can't I do that?
And even the initiator wouldsay, Why can't I do that?
So the stabilizer is like you'repulling, pulling at the the the
butt, the pants of someonesaying, Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow
down.
Let's figure out what we need todo here.
It's incredibly crucial for amother of a kid before the age
of five to bring order andstructure and systems so that
(22:55):
kid has certainty and security.
And then at some point, thefather, a dynamic father, or a
transforming father in this rolecould be a mother who gets in
touch with that more spontaneousenergy, will grab and take the
kid and go, let's go have fun,let's go jump off, let's go jump
off the roof of the house orsomething like that.
Whereas the stabilizer will begoing, what are you doing?
(23:16):
You can't do that.
And again, that's the there'sgreat value.
And then obviously the downsideis you're trying to inhibit my
fun.
unknown (23:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:26):
They tend towards perfectionism.
They can get pretty demanding asfar as obedient, doing the way
they want you to do it, theirways the right way.
That's some of the downside ofit.
But initially, it absolutely islike a police department.
They bring order to things, thelaws we make, all of that's
based upon the stabilizingenergy.
And some people have itnaturally, and they'll go into a
(23:48):
place, and wise is a person whohires that who needs to bring
structure to a new business.
Like uh, if if I'm going tostart a business, I have to go
to a bank.
If I want money, I have to comewith a business plan.
That's the stabilizer.
Yeah.
And yet, people that havebusiness ideas oftentimes
struggle with putting a plan inplace to get the funds they need
(24:11):
to make the business happen.
That's why that's why it's sointeresting.
You see, it's all inside of us,knowing when to access it, how
to access it, or when to hire itout, or find someone who can do
that energy is so fascinating inhow it helps us all be more
balanced.
SPEAKER_01 (24:28):
Yeah, I think there's great instruction there
in seeking more balance in yourown individual journey.
But even as you seek balance totap into that voice within you,
there are times when you realizeI'm accessing that part of me
that I've not done in the past,but I also know that I'm not as
good at it as this person overhere.
(24:48):
And so I'm going to hire it tobe done because I appreciate it
and I'm trying to learn thatmyself, but it's not my sweet
spot.
Right.
I go ahead.
Sorry.
SPEAKER_02 (24:58):
And in my in my uh therapy practice, my office
manager is great.
She takes care of all thosedetails.
Well, recently I had to I had tocall the IRS to get a uh a
letter of for my tax exemptnumber.
I didn't have the letter onfile, so I had to get a new one.
But only the owner can do it.
(25:20):
Because usually I would say, youknow, Emily, could you just take
care of that?
Well, she came back and shegoes, uh yeah, Jimmy, you have
to do that one.
You're the owner, so you have tomake those calls.
So it was like, okay, crap.
I put it off for like a wholeweek and then finally I did it
yesterday, and it and it wentmuch better than the first
attempt I made.
So that's the same, same thing.
It's like, if you know that'syour weakness and it just drains
(25:41):
your energy to think about doingthose details, and you hire
someone who who naturally doesit.
I mean, again, she just shetakes charge of things, she gets
stuff done.
And in fact, I didn't even knowI needed this letter until she
came to me and she said, I can'tmake some changes until we have
this letter on file.
So and you're the owner.
I went, Oh, I am?
Oh, okay.
So, yeah.
(26:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:04):
I as I mentioned before, I love, as you just did,
to personify it.
You took your office manager andsaid, Here's an example that you
can have in your mind of howthis plays itself out in real
life in real time.
My example earlier about MichaelJordan, I feel like that the
Chicago Bulls organizationbrought in Phil Jackson, and
(26:26):
Phil Jackson became a stabilizerforce.
You could fit him into someother categories, but in terms
of that relationship, here'sthis dynamic, powerful alpha
person that is in the team, andPhil Jackson brought a structure
within which he could operateand a system in which those
things could happen, which was agreat match, a great pairing for
(26:49):
those two for so many years.
SPEAKER_02 (26:51):
It would be interesting to know the details
of that.
I mean, you can you can justconjecture about what it played
how it played out.
My guess is that at some pointMichael Jordan had to respect
the way in which Phil Jacksonhandled the rest of the people
to get them on board with whatthe idea that maybe even Jordan
wanted to do.
And so there had to be somerespect there, I think, in those
(27:12):
moments when he had to listen toPhil Jackson do some things.
SPEAKER_01 (27:16):
Another person that I think of, at least in my mind,
and I the Supreme Court Justice,Catanya Jackson-Brown, every
time I hear her speak, she seemsone who's dedicated to the law.
She wants to see things done inaccordance with the law, the
details she knows, this is howshe brings about social justice,
(27:38):
this is how she brings about abetter world, is through
attention to the specific rulesand regulations that govern in
any particular way.
Whether you agree with herdecisions or not, she is one for
me who embodies this particulartrait and approach to the world.
SPEAKER_02 (28:03):
Whether you think they're originalist or there are
people that want to who see itas a fluid document as far as
the Constitution, thatconversation has to be pretty
excited, pretty exciting tolisten to.
But again, I think at the baseof it, there has to be some kind
of mutual respect to be able tohear each other.
And I think they do, for themost part, model that for the
rest of the country that weprobably could learn from that
(28:25):
these are ideas that are drivenfrom our interpretation or our
own filters of how we interpretthe Constitution.
That's why it's so interestingthat the way in which you read
the Constitution can be read inso many different ways because
of our experience, because ofour natural approach of who we
are as people.
Again, that's why this wholedilemma about who are we going
to appoint, we're going toappoint a conservative, we're
(28:46):
going to appoint a liberal.
It's like it's so crazy how wehave not integrated these
energies into understanding,wait a minute, we're all in this
together.
Yeah, my bias may be this energyhere to make things happen, but
your bias is this.
How can we work together?
And it just feels like we're ina real transition of trying to
figure out how to move forwardand work together like we used
(29:07):
to be able to do in the past.
And I think we've all we've allshifted.
And I think social media hasimpacted that.
I mean, when you can alloweverybody to have an opinion and
then post it, that's chaos.
Well, how do we bring order toit?
Well, some people have gottenoff social media.
On the other hand, there's agreat use for social media to
keep in touch with friends, tolearn new things.
(29:28):
It can be used for great good orgreat, uh great not so good.
And I think that's that's sofascinating as far as I was
thinking this week about it.
That on a whim, you have accessto record something and put it
out there.
Your view.
There's no more container abouthaving to have a voice.
You can have a voice with the uhwith the internet.
(29:51):
It's fascinating times from thatperspective.
SPEAKER_01 (29:54):
Yeah.
And I think uh this podcast isat the forefront of bringing
about that innovation andchange.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (30:02):
We're gonna we we could make it all happen if they
would just listen to us.
You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00 (30:06):
That's right.
That's right.
Here we are.
We're recording anything.
Throwing it out there as anopinion.
SPEAKER_02 (30:14):
We uh we need order at times, but we're working on
it.
Do you want to run by thetransformer real quick or not?
SPEAKER_00 (30:21):
No, I don't care about the transformer.
Of course I do.
What do you mean?
SPEAKER_02 (30:26):
I don't know the time limit if we want to do it
the next time or we're out oftime, but we run this show.
So we can we can run the showinto the ground if we want.
SPEAKER_00 (30:37):
Well, we've already done that.
SPEAKER_01 (30:38):
We're well on our way to that.
SPEAKER_00 (30:40):
Absolutely true.
SPEAKER_01 (30:41):
Okay, let's talk about the transformer.
Transformer is in the categoryof the dynamic feminine energy.
Yep.
Tell us a little bit about thecharacteristics of this
particular personality, style,or type, and the trajectory of a
journey that is dominated bythis.
SPEAKER_02 (30:58):
Spontaneous, insightful, transforming.
They see the possibilities thatcould be.
They oftentimes are completely,they're not rule followers at
all.
They are open to newexperiences.
If you see the negative side ofit, if you go to a party and
they got a new drug, oh yeah,Transformers gonna try that
(31:20):
drug.
And yeah, that's the that's theexpansive side of it.
So they are fun, they're thelife of the party.
They come in, they have nofilters oftentimes, they just
have a great time.
That's the Transformer.
SPEAKER_01 (31:36):
Um sometimes you also make reference or emphasize
more the creative, artistic,yeah, they're driven side of
that.
SPEAKER_02 (31:44):
Absolutely.
Yep.
And they don't worry aboutmaking a living at it.
Oftentimes, they are just drivenby this creative energy of just
starting to do things.
And sometimes they make a livingat it, sometimes they don't, but
that's not the main criteria.
The prototypical transformer.
They just see life as one bigexperiment to jump into.
SPEAKER_01 (32:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and one of the things thatcan be frustrating to others who
aren't of that type is, well,what do you mean we're not going
to monetize this?
What do you mean we don't have aplan to take this someplace?
And a real frustration thatsometimes it's art for art's
sake or expression forexpression's sake, or kind of a
(32:28):
prophetic voice because it needsto be said, not because I've
thought through all of theimplications of it, but somebody
needs to say it.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (32:35):
That's why a lot of people that will have access to
their phones, they can make avideo, transform will make a
video, post it on TikTok rightaway, and then oftentimes go, a
family member will go, You yousaid that?
Oh my word, you can't say that.
And then they may take it down,they may have to apologize,
whatever, because they can givevent to that spontaneous spirit
of basically going with theirthoughts and saying, Oh, well,
(32:57):
that needs to be said.
And they don't think about theconsequences.
That's the stabilizer.
The stabilizer will almostalways think about the
consequences.
That's why that's again more ofa natural attraction in a match
between the stabilizer and thetransformer.
Transformer will bring fun tolife, the stabilizer will try to
organize the fun.
And the then in midlife,typically if you're in a
relationship with one of them,the transformer has not grown up
(33:20):
and the stabilizer has not shutup, to use the analogy I've I
think I've said before.
It's like that's that's thenegative challenge is like when
to know when to not do that,when to not say it.
Both the stabilizer and thetransformer.
Stabilizer knows needs to knowwhen not to correct, and the
transformer needs to know not tojust keep saying stuff at a
(33:43):
family event to make everybodymad.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or to expose all the hypocrisy.
SPEAKER_01 (33:49):
Yeah.
I think one of the most thetrait that I admire a great deal
is that Transformers seem to beso in touch with their
intuition.
Whether they know it or not,they sense a direction or sense
(34:10):
a right move before there arenecessarily any facts to back
that up.
They sense when something's off.
They have an intuition aboutpeople who have different
motivations than they'representing.
And I think that's part of whatleads to frustration of others
is, particularly in a Westernculture, how can you come to
(34:32):
that conclusion?
Why do you even think that?
And they don't always have anexplanation, but it's almost as
if they have a third eye thatthey can see things that other
people aren't seeing.
SPEAKER_02 (34:42):
And that's that's the stereotypical feminine
energy, the intuitive sense.
That's that's feminine energy,again, not male-female.
A lot of men use it in business,but it's kind of like a a strong
initiating man who's married toan intuitive woman will trust
that intuition even if the womancan't explain why.
Like they'll say, stay away fromthat person.
(35:04):
That's not a good person.
They won't be able to know whyat all, not explain it.
And a man will typically go,what are you talking about?
They're fine.
They're gonna they're gonna takemy business to the next level.
No, they're not.
They're something's off.
And so you have to learn totrust that.
Uh, I have a friend recently whowent through a situation like
that, and you could tell, like,no, that's the the friends
(35:26):
around him were saying, I don'tthink that's doesn't feel right.
And and sure enough, it turnedout to be a pretty negative
experience.
But he was so excited about thepossibilities that he couldn't
listen to the person that wassaying, I'm not sure that's
that's a safe sp safe thing todo at this point.
That's uh again, that's always achallenge.
If you don't have that naturalvoice in you of hesitancy,
(35:47):
you'll you may you may do a lotof great things, but you also
may really get yourself into abunch of trouble.
That's why, again, it's sointeresting to try to see how to
balance all that out in anindividual.
SPEAKER_01 (36:14):
That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching,
and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to follow,
rate, or share it with someonewho might appreciate it as well.
Thanks for being here, and untilnext time, keep growing, stay
curious, and take good care ofyourself.
SPEAKER_02 (36:30):
Yeah, now it's good stuff.
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
We are so glad you've joined us.
My name is D.
Kelly.
I'm here with Jim Shaley, and weare discussing all kinds of
things that have to do with ourpersonality style, our growth,
self-awareness, and what itmeans to be in therapy and
coaching and deal with some ofthese things.
(00:35):
So in a previous episode, wetalked about the overall
structure of understandingpersonality, driven in large
part by a Jungian approach tothat, and using the notion of
the masculine and femininetraits and imagery that we might
(00:55):
use in our life and have withinus.
Again, we've said it many times.
It's not male or female.
This is not a gender issue oreven a gender identity issue.
This has to do with all of ushaving within us both masculine
and feminine characteristics towhich we give voice at various
(01:15):
levels and the positive outcomeof getting in touch with those
various aspects and giving voiceto them in ways that add to our
own creativity and expression ofall of who we are.
Similarly, a dynamic versusstatic approach to the energy or
movement that we have.
(01:37):
And that's where we're going todig in a little bit more, are
the various types that giveexpression to these things.
So I'm going to jump in, Jim,with the initiator, which is a
masculine dynamic style, andsome of the characteristics that
we might find in an individual.
(01:57):
And I know that we often talkabout these things as they
express themselves inrelationship.
The initiator, what does thatperson look like?
How do they present themselves?
Maybe what their life trajectorymight include to express this
type of approach.
SPEAKER_02 (02:13):
I think their central value or the thing that
really gets them motivated is tomake progress, to generate new
things, and to expand over whathas been.
They have similar traits ofbeing aggressive, assertive,
goal-oriented.
They they irritate, they conquerthings, they strive for
accomplishments, they pursueindividual interests, they go
(02:35):
their own way.
It's basically very egocentricin some ways, the prototypical
initiator.
They don't pay attention to whatis supposed to be done.
They just simply see somethingit needs to accomplish and they
go after it.
And I know that it it moves theculture, good or bad, in some
ways.
It's like a great king, abenevolent king, takes the
(02:57):
people into consideration.
A cruel king back in the MiddleAges, that they would just do
what they wanted to do.
That's that's the prototypicalmasculine.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (03:07):
In a just in a let's say, business setting, this
particular personality type iscertainly very task-driven,
right?
Yes.
To do lists, but the sense ofresponsibility is the sense that
as you said, they see somethingthat needs to be done and they
(03:28):
just move forward and expectothers to see that something
needs to be done and sometimesprovides the energy for that.
SPEAKER_02 (03:36):
Right.
They don't they don't see theneed for order necessarily at
that point.
They just have a goal they wantto accomplish.
And it's like the the famousdynamic when Steve Jobs came
into a meeting and they weren'tgetting this one thing
accomplished, and he just simplysaid, get it done, and he left.
And they figured it out.
(03:57):
So I mean, that's the that's theintensest initiators.
They just basically say, thishas to be accomplished, figure
it out.
SPEAKER_01 (04:06):
Yeah.
One of the individuals that forme I like to personify some of
these things and have faces togo with them.
And I know that a person that weknow through media or newspapers
or culture or TV is notnecessarily the way they are in
their private life.
And I fully understand that.
(04:27):
But in terms of how they presentthemselves in that setting, I
sometimes think of very familiarcharacters and how they might
fit and help me to think throughsome of those things.
One of the people I think of isMichael Jordan, out to win, and
it was win at all costs.
In a similar fashion as you justsaid, he was presented with that
(04:50):
old adage that there's no I inteam.
And his response was, Well,there is in win.
SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
And that was what he was all about was winning.
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
Yeah.
And it was very much a masculinedynamic movement that I saw
expressed, at least in hissporting life.
Have no idea what it was outsideof that.
I would also add, and tell me ifI'm wrong, but there is no
concern at all about consensusbuilding.
SPEAKER_02 (05:17):
No.
No, that's why it's it's oftencompared to dictat dictatorial
stances.
It's like they don't try tobring people in and have a
conversation.
They come in and say, hey, thisis what they they might act like
they do that, but then they'lljust simply say, This is what
we're gonna do.
They they feign the theinteractive stance.
It's like if if Jordan was on ateam, he might he might talk to
(05:40):
all of them, but then he wouldsay, Let's let's just do it my
the way that I think we shoulddo it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:47):
So to break that stereotype of it always being
masculine, it's a masculineenergy, but it's not always a
mask uh a male person.
Sorry, I had a tough timegetting that out.
Absolutely.
So I don't know, again, apopular personification, but
Oprah Winfrey was very much amove forward, push forward.
(06:12):
She accomplished tasks, got agot a lot done because she knew
what needed to be done.
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
It's very individualistic.
They break away from the groupand they chart a path.
And if they're if they're uhdynamic, like Transformers,
we'll talk about later, theywill pull people along with them
because they're so magnetic inin their approach to things.
But yeah, they're their basicthings is they want to break
(06:38):
away, create a new path ofsomething that needs to happen.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:43):
Yeah.
And as we mentioned in aprevious episode, there are so
many pe people that ride thewake of that type of individual.
That individual provides theenergy and kind of parts the
water so that others can ridethat energy in a particular
direction.
And sometimes that's how amovement gets started, is that
(07:04):
there's an electrifyingindividual that's able to do
that.
SPEAKER_02 (07:07):
It is.
And there the otherpersonalities we can talk about,
they come along oftentimes andthey don't they don't follow
along on the wake and they getbitter and resentful.
And those are the people thatwill leave a company and then
they'll trash the leader sayingthey were insensitive, they
didn't listen to anybody.
That's the other voice.
And that that's that'sinteresting dynamic in the sense
(07:29):
of that personality, they don'tpay attention to that negativity
at all.
They just keep moving forward.
It's got a great benefit, it'sgot a great downside.
SPEAKER_01 (07:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's I love that.
Two sides to the same coin.
It it often is that we identifysomebody who is in the
leadership position thatcharacterizes this or that
models it.
However, that person came upthrough the ranks often somehow.
(07:58):
And there are many individualswithin organizational systems,
and we're not talking aboutmarriage relationships, but also
in marriage relationships thatlive this way, and it doesn't
work nearly as well if you don'thave the power to correspond
with it.
SPEAKER_02 (08:16):
Well, that's it, that's a more expansive and
deeper conversation because whathappens sometimes in an
organization, you'll see someoneattach to a leader because they
know that when that leader isgone, somebody has to take that
person's place.
And so they will really beattracted to and kind of almost
worship that person.
(08:37):
And that person will then inturn turn to them and say, Okay,
I I I like this person.
I can see them taking the nextstep, but they're basically just
flattering the person in chargeenough to get to a place where
they might be able to take over.
And that's that's what peoplewould say, you know, climbers or
people that play the game, theyknow the right masculine energy
(08:58):
to attach to.
Oftentimes they aren't nearly asskilled as the person doing it.
SPEAKER_01 (09:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You also have teams thatsometimes are formed in any type
of organization, and the team isexpected to complete a
particular complete task orbring about some end result.
And somebody with this initiatormentality or personality style
(09:28):
will sometimes be a greatbenefit because they get the
group started and get moving.
Sometimes the individual can beincredibly irritating to every
other member of the groupbecause they're not listening to
other ideas.
And so, in that setting, thedisruptor, depending on how the
supervisor views it, is thedisruptor good, or is the
(09:50):
disruptor ruining the team,depends on how the trajectory
goes for that individual'scareer within that organization.
SPEAKER_02 (09:57):
The natural flow would be for the initiator to be
wise enough to include what wetalk about, which which is the
stabilizer part.
The stabilizer brings orders tothe chaos that the initiator
starts.
And so a good team, a goodleader knows they need that
person that will implement thethings or will take care of the
(10:20):
rest of the people, talk tothem, nurture them, whatever
that is, they know they need thestabilizing factor.
And if they don't have that,they're just an idea person.
SPEAKER_01 (10:30):
Yeah, that's good.
Good description.
The counterbalance at some levelis the stabilizer, but there's
also the counterbalance withsome of the feminine
characteristics that it's thatare more relationally oriented.
And I know that, at least myexperience, one of the questions
in relationship is asking theinitiator, but what do you feel
(10:55):
about this?
And the initiator doesn't evenunderstand the question.
It's like, I don't even knowwhat you're talking about.
We've got a job to do, we'regoing to do it.
What does that have to do withanything?
And the nurturer, the whichlet's talk about that one next,
is the one who's trying to bringto the mix this awareness that
(11:15):
not only does everybody aroundyou have feelings that are
affected by what you're doing,but you do too, whether you
realize it or not, is kind ofthe nurturer's approach.
Is that fair?
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
Yes.
An initiator's feelings woulddefinitely be like something has
to get done.
I feel an urgency to dosomething different.
That's a feeling on some level,but they wouldn't identify it
that way at all.
They'd be just put it into atask mode.
The other thing that's that'sfascinating about it is you see
it being played out all thetime.
The let's say someone comes inand buys a company and they fire
(11:47):
a bunch of people.
Well, if there's somebody onthat team that understands how
that's going to affect families,they will try to get the
attention of that person andsay, you can't, you can't do
this.
And yet the initiator will say,We we we have to downsize, we
have to make money, we have todo these things.
And so that tension is almostalways there, whether it be in a
business or even in arelationship, because that same
(12:09):
tension is in a relationship.
SPEAKER_01 (12:11):
Yeah, the classic response from an initiator in a
for-profit business setting isI'm sorry, but I answer to the
stockholders.
And I don't answer to theindividual families.
My task is to address the valueof this company.
SPEAKER_02 (12:26):
Aaron Powell And I think that's in some reason why
why nonprofits are formed.
Because nonprofits give more ofa feeling level to how it's
going to affect people.
SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
Yeah.
Great observation.
Let's shift then to in some waysto it there aren't really polar
opposites, but it's a different,very different place in the
spectrum of that nurtureapproach.
It's a a feminine static energythat brings a nurture and caring
to the world and expresses thatthrough their life.
(12:56):
So give us a little bit moreabout the characteristics of an
individual where this has beentheir life trajectory and this
is their primary way in whichthey present in terms of
personality.
SPEAKER_02 (13:06):
You're talking about the responder?
SPEAKER_01 (13:08):
Responder, yeah, who is a nurturer, sorry.
Yeah.
The responder.
SPEAKER_02 (13:11):
Yeah, the responders basically value is survival.
They want the species to surviveand to keep maintaining the
species, basically, for lack ofa obviously a word I can't think
of at this point.
They're always other-oriented.
They nurture, they shelter, theyaccept, they protect, they
(13:33):
affirm, they take care ofeverything, they anticipate
needs.
The classic example is theenabler that sees a need and
always meets it.
You never have to worry aboutwhat they're going to bring to a
party.
They will have plenty of things,they'll overthink everything.
They'll have the your favoritedrink there.
I mean, that's that's theclassic responder.
(13:55):
They take care of the humanspirit in a way that the others
don't.
They're always aware of whatthey could do to make life
better.
SPEAKER_01 (14:06):
For me, this one is summed up by the Mother Teresa
approach.
And again, I never met MotherTeresa.
I don't know her personally, buteverything that I have read and
all the statements that aremade, she is the one who is
going to take care of the needsof the world.
And she starts in Calcutta, butsomehow it just spreads
(14:26):
everywhere.
And that's that's kind of thepersonification for me.
However, I would also say that Ihave an uncle that fits solidly
in this place, went into acaregiving profession.
He was a physician, but hisapproach to being a medical
(14:47):
practitioner was nurture andcare and protecting and survival
and all of those kinds ofthings.
And his heart was socompassionate that he hurt
deeply for others when they hurtand wanted to somehow make a
difference.
So yeah, I have in my mindpeople that fit this to a T.
(15:09):
What are some of the problemsthat this type of individual
faces as they live out thispersona?
SPEAKER_02 (15:18):
That's a great question.
It's one of the hardest thingthings is to get someone with
these traits to acknowledge thedownside of it.
Yeah.
They usually come into therapymidlife, maybe in the late 40s,
early 50s, exhausted, burnt out,not understanding why they can't
continue to take care of thekids, the husband, the house, to
(15:39):
use the stereotype.
And I'll ask the first questionI ask is so what did you hope to
get back from all your work?
And almost invariably they say,Oh, nothing.
I didn't expect anything.
So you have to get through thatlittle bit of denial to realize
there was a transaction thatthey expected that they weren't
aware of.
And that's that's a big shiftfor them, and even to entertain
(16:02):
the idea that there wassomething they wanted to get
from it.
And I will say at that point,you always model the behavior
you want, even though you maynot see it in the moment.
And so they come in exhaustedbecause they have given way
beyond what other people havedone, and they've spoiled
everybody in their life.
So the downside is you spoilpeople.
(16:22):
You get them used to being takencare of.
And it's life-giving to theresponder on some level to do
that.
But it's also a different way oflooking at the narcissistic
behavior because it's all abouttheir need to do that to feel
significant.
And so typically in midlife,they come in depressed or
anxious, not understanding why.
(16:44):
And it really has been becausethey have overfunctioned in the
giving part.
So they've got to learn theboundaries, which is why the
boundaries thing of, you know,20 or 30 years ago was so big,
because they realized it was itwas okay to set a boundary and
say, I can't do that.
But it's really hard for them toshift that energy because their
natural instinct, like aninitiator, is to just take care
(17:05):
of everything.
And similarly, people ride thewake of that nurturer.
Oh jeez.
Absolutely.
That's why they get spoiled.
Just like an initiator who makesthings happen, they will
there'll be people that willjust ride them as well.
And make a lot of make money offof them in some ways.
SPEAKER_01 (17:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:25):
In that setting.
SPEAKER_01 (17:26):
But again, that's that's why it's a blind shade
going on in the background thatgot initiated by a remote
control in another room.
Sorry.
Jump back in.
SPEAKER_02 (17:38):
That's why what So that's why the natural
attraction oftentimes is theinitiator and the responder.
Like I said, I think we saidlast week, that's a natural
attraction because the initiatorsets the goals and the responder
helps them make it happen.
They will take care ofeverything, they will take
everything off the plate of aperson who has a goal to us to
(18:00):
uh to set to accomplish, andthey will make it easy for that
initiator to keep to work toomuch, whatever that is.
SPEAKER_01 (18:09):
So I know we are trying to stay with individuals,
but this setup seems too perfectto not ask this question.
This feels like a match made inheaven.
Both of them find the other oneincredibly attractive and love
to enjoy the characteristicsthat the other person brings to
this, and yet there comes a timewhere that is no longer
(18:33):
satisfactory.
What makes this perfect matchfall apart?
SPEAKER_02 (18:39):
Well, I would say because the responder spoils
more than the initiator, theyget exhausted.
And so they can't understand whythey're exhausted.
Then they'll start talking totheir spouse or whoever they're
they're in a relationship withabout they're just so tired all
the time and they aren't theyaren't being able to do what
they once did.
(18:59):
And again, they won't understandwhat's happening.
And then the the other partneroftentimes, if they're in
therapy, they'll come in andthey'll be asked to do things
around the house, to to beengaged more, to help clean, to
help do these things.
And that person will go, Well,that's I've never done that.
So and they won't get thebalance of that.
(19:21):
So typically I would say it'sit's the responder, on the other
hand, to be fair, the initiator,if they're out building their
kingdoms, oftentimes they'llengage in another relationship.
They'll have an affair,something will happen that will
get that person's attention aswell.
Because they they will havetaken for granted the person at
(19:43):
home taking care of everything,and they actually lose some
respect, as well as as theresponder loses respect as well,
because that person may never behome, never attentive enough to
the kids, all of those things.
Again, we're talking prettystereotypically as far as the
stereotype of the the husbandand wife or the that that that
marital relationship.
SPEAKER_01 (20:05):
Sure, sure.
It also seems to me that thereis a as we grow, we find
ourselves still attracted tothose things that are not
developed within ourselves.
And when our journey with theour partner never forces us to
(20:28):
address that in our own life,then there is an erotic
diversion, maybe is the best wayI know how to put it.
SPEAKER_02 (20:41):
Yeah.
So something external typicallywill happen.
I'll lose a job, again, I'llhave an affair, something will
happen.
Uh, kids will leave for school,I'll leave, I'll lose my
purpose.
That's a pretty common one forsome mothers.
SPEAKER_01 (20:54):
Yeah.
Okay.
So we've got an initiator, we'vegot a responder.
We've talked a little bit in aprevious session, but let's
review again the stabilizerindividual.
What are the characteristics ofthis individual?
And you haven't we haven'treally talked about how those
things develop from childhood orfamily of origin.
SPEAKER_02 (21:14):
Yeah, no, that's that's great.
SPEAKER_01 (21:15):
Yeah, because it could be genetics, it could be
learned, it yeah.
Yeah.
And certainly a combination ofboth, a predisposition to a
particular approach, but alsothe dynamic that you step into
as a newborn will affect how youdevelop some of these traits for
survival and how to cope withthe things that are unaccepted
(21:36):
by a family and what you do withthose things.
But let's stick with theindividual response, the
stabilizer.
What are some of thecharacteristics that help you
realize this is true aboutyourself or someone you love?
SPEAKER_02 (21:49):
They typically love rules and regulations, and they
bring order to things.
So they can walk into a chaoticsituation and immediately know
what needs to happen.
To bring order to them.
And they're really good at it.
They stabilize everything.
They get misinterpretedoftentimes as they're trying to
control things.
That's the negative side of it.
(22:11):
But really, they they provide anincredible service to the other
part of it, which is thetransformer, where they're so
spontaneous and and and unrulyin some ways that they they come
in and say, You can't you can'tdo that.
You can't do that.
And the transformer in thissituation will go, Well, why
(22:32):
can't I do that?
And even the initiator wouldsay, Why can't I do that?
So the stabilizer is like you'repulling, pulling at the the the
butt, the pants of someonesaying, Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow
down.
Let's figure out what we need todo here.
It's incredibly crucial for amother of a kid before the age
of five to bring order andstructure and systems so that
(22:55):
kid has certainty and security.
And then at some point, thefather, a dynamic father, or a
transforming father in this rolecould be a mother who gets in
touch with that more spontaneousenergy, will grab and take the
kid and go, let's go have fun,let's go jump off, let's go jump
off the roof of the house orsomething like that.
Whereas the stabilizer will begoing, what are you doing?
(23:16):
You can't do that.
And again, that's the there'sgreat value.
And then obviously the downsideis you're trying to inhibit my
fun.
unknown (23:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:26):
They tend towards perfectionism.
They can get pretty demanding asfar as obedient, doing the way
they want you to do it, theirways the right way.
That's some of the downside ofit.
But initially, it absolutely islike a police department.
They bring order to things, thelaws we make, all of that's
based upon the stabilizingenergy.
And some people have itnaturally, and they'll go into a
(23:48):
place, and wise is a person whohires that who needs to bring
structure to a new business.
Like uh, if if I'm going tostart a business, I have to go
to a bank.
If I want money, I have to comewith a business plan.
That's the stabilizer.
Yeah.
And yet, people that havebusiness ideas oftentimes
struggle with putting a plan inplace to get the funds they need
(24:11):
to make the business happen.
That's why that's why it's sointeresting.
You see, it's all inside of us,knowing when to access it, how
to access it, or when to hire itout, or find someone who can do
that energy is so fascinating inhow it helps us all be more
balanced.
SPEAKER_01 (24:28):
Yeah, I think there's great instruction there
in seeking more balance in yourown individual journey.
But even as you seek balance totap into that voice within you,
there are times when you realizeI'm accessing that part of me
that I've not done in the past,but I also know that I'm not as
good at it as this person overhere.
(24:48):
And so I'm going to hire it tobe done because I appreciate it
and I'm trying to learn thatmyself, but it's not my sweet
spot.
Right.
I go ahead.
Sorry.
SPEAKER_02 (24:58):
And in my in my uh therapy practice, my office
manager is great.
She takes care of all thosedetails.
Well, recently I had to I had tocall the IRS to get a uh a
letter of for my tax exemptnumber.
I didn't have the letter onfile, so I had to get a new one.
But only the owner can do it.
(25:20):
Because usually I would say, youknow, Emily, could you just take
care of that?
Well, she came back and shegoes, uh yeah, Jimmy, you have
to do that one.
You're the owner, so you have tomake those calls.
So it was like, okay, crap.
I put it off for like a wholeweek and then finally I did it
yesterday, and it and it wentmuch better than the first
attempt I made.
So that's the same, same thing.
It's like, if you know that'syour weakness and it just drains
(25:41):
your energy to think about doingthose details, and you hire
someone who who naturally doesit.
I mean, again, she just shetakes charge of things, she gets
stuff done.
And in fact, I didn't even knowI needed this letter until she
came to me and she said, I can'tmake some changes until we have
this letter on file.
So and you're the owner.
I went, Oh, I am?
Oh, okay.
So, yeah.
(26:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:04):
I as I mentioned before, I love, as you just did,
to personify it.
You took your office manager andsaid, Here's an example that you
can have in your mind of howthis plays itself out in real
life in real time.
My example earlier about MichaelJordan, I feel like that the
Chicago Bulls organizationbrought in Phil Jackson, and
(26:26):
Phil Jackson became a stabilizerforce.
You could fit him into someother categories, but in terms
of that relationship, here'sthis dynamic, powerful alpha
person that is in the team, andPhil Jackson brought a structure
within which he could operateand a system in which those
things could happen, which was agreat match, a great pairing for
(26:49):
those two for so many years.
SPEAKER_02 (26:51):
It would be interesting to know the details
of that.
I mean, you can you can justconjecture about what it played
how it played out.
My guess is that at some pointMichael Jordan had to respect
the way in which Phil Jacksonhandled the rest of the people
to get them on board with whatthe idea that maybe even Jordan
wanted to do.
And so there had to be somerespect there, I think, in those
(27:12):
moments when he had to listen toPhil Jackson do some things.
SPEAKER_01 (27:16):
Another person that I think of, at least in my mind,
and I the Supreme Court Justice,Catanya Jackson-Brown, every
time I hear her speak, she seemsone who's dedicated to the law.
She wants to see things done inaccordance with the law, the
details she knows, this is howshe brings about social justice,
(27:38):
this is how she brings about abetter world, is through
attention to the specific rulesand regulations that govern in
any particular way.
Whether you agree with herdecisions or not, she is one for
me who embodies this particulartrait and approach to the world.
SPEAKER_02 (28:03):
Whether you think they're originalist or there are
people that want to who see itas a fluid document as far as
the Constitution, thatconversation has to be pretty
excited, pretty exciting tolisten to.
But again, I think at the baseof it, there has to be some kind
of mutual respect to be able tohear each other.
And I think they do, for themost part, model that for the
rest of the country that weprobably could learn from that
(28:25):
these are ideas that are drivenfrom our interpretation or our
own filters of how we interpretthe Constitution.
That's why it's so interestingthat the way in which you read
the Constitution can be read inso many different ways because
of our experience, because ofour natural approach of who we
are as people.
Again, that's why this wholedilemma about who are we going
to appoint, we're going toappoint a conservative, we're
(28:46):
going to appoint a liberal.
It's like it's so crazy how wehave not integrated these
energies into understanding,wait a minute, we're all in this
together.
Yeah, my bias may be this energyhere to make things happen, but
your bias is this.
How can we work together?
And it just feels like we're ina real transition of trying to
figure out how to move forwardand work together like we used
(29:07):
to be able to do in the past.
And I think we've all we've allshifted.
And I think social media hasimpacted that.
I mean, when you can alloweverybody to have an opinion and
then post it, that's chaos.
Well, how do we bring order toit?
Well, some people have gottenoff social media.
On the other hand, there's agreat use for social media to
keep in touch with friends, tolearn new things.
(29:28):
It can be used for great good orgreat, uh great not so good.
And I think that's that's sofascinating as far as I was
thinking this week about it.
That on a whim, you have accessto record something and put it
out there.
Your view.
There's no more container abouthaving to have a voice.
You can have a voice with the uhwith the internet.
(29:51):
It's fascinating times from thatperspective.
SPEAKER_01 (29:54):
Yeah.
And I think uh this podcast isat the forefront of bringing
about that innovation andchange.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (30:02):
We're gonna we we could make it all happen if they
would just listen to us.
You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00 (30:06):
That's right.
That's right.
Here we are.
We're recording anything.
Throwing it out there as anopinion.
SPEAKER_02 (30:14):
We uh we need order at times, but we're working on
it.
Do you want to run by thetransformer real quick or not?
SPEAKER_00 (30:21):
No, I don't care about the transformer.
Of course I do.
What do you mean?
SPEAKER_02 (30:26):
I don't know the time limit if we want to do it
the next time or we're out oftime, but we run this show.
So we can we can run the showinto the ground if we want.
SPEAKER_00 (30:37):
Well, we've already done that.
SPEAKER_01 (30:38):
We're well on our way to that.
SPEAKER_00 (30:40):
Absolutely true.
SPEAKER_01 (30:41):
Okay, let's talk about the transformer.
Transformer is in the categoryof the dynamic feminine energy.
Yep.
Tell us a little bit about thecharacteristics of this
particular personality, style,or type, and the trajectory of a
journey that is dominated bythis.
SPEAKER_02 (30:58):
Spontaneous, insightful, transforming.
They see the possibilities thatcould be.
They oftentimes are completely,they're not rule followers at
all.
They are open to newexperiences.
If you see the negative side ofit, if you go to a party and
they got a new drug, oh yeah,Transformers gonna try that
(31:20):
drug.
And yeah, that's the that's theexpansive side of it.
So they are fun, they're thelife of the party.
They come in, they have nofilters oftentimes, they just
have a great time.
That's the Transformer.
SPEAKER_01 (31:36):
Um sometimes you also make reference or emphasize
more the creative, artistic,yeah, they're driven side of
that.
SPEAKER_02 (31:44):
Absolutely.
Yep.
And they don't worry aboutmaking a living at it.
Oftentimes, they are just drivenby this creative energy of just
starting to do things.
And sometimes they make a livingat it, sometimes they don't, but
that's not the main criteria.
The prototypical transformer.
They just see life as one bigexperiment to jump into.
SPEAKER_01 (32:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and one of the things thatcan be frustrating to others who
aren't of that type is, well,what do you mean we're not going
to monetize this?
What do you mean we don't have aplan to take this someplace?
And a real frustration thatsometimes it's art for art's
sake or expression forexpression's sake, or kind of a
(32:28):
prophetic voice because it needsto be said, not because I've
thought through all of theimplications of it, but somebody
needs to say it.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (32:35):
That's why a lot of people that will have access to
their phones, they can make avideo, transform will make a
video, post it on TikTok rightaway, and then oftentimes go, a
family member will go, You yousaid that?
Oh my word, you can't say that.
And then they may take it down,they may have to apologize,
whatever, because they can givevent to that spontaneous spirit
of basically going with theirthoughts and saying, Oh, well,
(32:57):
that needs to be said.
And they don't think about theconsequences.
That's the stabilizer.
The stabilizer will almostalways think about the
consequences.
That's why that's again more ofa natural attraction in a match
between the stabilizer and thetransformer.
Transformer will bring fun tolife, the stabilizer will try to
organize the fun.
And the then in midlife,typically if you're in a
relationship with one of them,the transformer has not grown up
(33:20):
and the stabilizer has not shutup, to use the analogy I've I
think I've said before.
It's like that's that's thenegative challenge is like when
to know when to not do that,when to not say it.
Both the stabilizer and thetransformer.
Stabilizer knows needs to knowwhen not to correct, and the
transformer needs to know not tojust keep saying stuff at a
(33:43):
family event to make everybodymad.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or to expose all the hypocrisy.
SPEAKER_01 (33:49):
Yeah.
I think one of the most thetrait that I admire a great deal
is that Transformers seem to beso in touch with their
intuition.
Whether they know it or not,they sense a direction or sense
(34:10):
a right move before there arenecessarily any facts to back
that up.
They sense when something's off.
They have an intuition aboutpeople who have different
motivations than they'representing.
And I think that's part of whatleads to frustration of others
is, particularly in a Westernculture, how can you come to
(34:32):
that conclusion?
Why do you even think that?
And they don't always have anexplanation, but it's almost as
if they have a third eye thatthey can see things that other
people aren't seeing.
SPEAKER_02 (34:42):
And that's that's the stereotypical feminine
energy, the intuitive sense.
That's that's feminine energy,again, not male-female.
A lot of men use it in business,but it's kind of like a a strong
initiating man who's married toan intuitive woman will trust
that intuition even if the womancan't explain why.
Like they'll say, stay away fromthat person.
(35:04):
That's not a good person.
They won't be able to know whyat all, not explain it.
And a man will typically go,what are you talking about?
They're fine.
They're gonna they're gonna takemy business to the next level.
No, they're not.
They're something's off.
And so you have to learn totrust that.
Uh, I have a friend recently whowent through a situation like
that, and you could tell, like,no, that's the the friends
(35:26):
around him were saying, I don'tthink that's doesn't feel right.
And and sure enough, it turnedout to be a pretty negative
experience.
But he was so excited about thepossibilities that he couldn't
listen to the person that wassaying, I'm not sure that's
that's a safe sp safe thing todo at this point.
That's uh again, that's always achallenge.
If you don't have that naturalvoice in you of hesitancy,
(35:47):
you'll you may you may do a lotof great things, but you also
may really get yourself into abunch of trouble.
That's why, again, it's sointeresting to try to see how to
balance all that out in anindividual.
SPEAKER_01 (36:14):
That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching,
and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to follow,
rate, or share it with someonewho might appreciate it as well.
Thanks for being here, and untilnext time, keep growing, stay
curious, and take good care ofyourself.
SPEAKER_02 (36:30):
Yeah, now it's good stuff.
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