August 6, 2026 • 28 mins
"Marketing isn't about selling. It's about changing customer behavior."
When most people think about marketing, they think about getting more leads, more clicks, or more sales. But in this episode, Dr. Neil Doyle challenged me to think about marketing in a completely different way.
Instead of chasing vanity metrics, Neil argues that great marketing starts with understanding your customer, building mental availability, and influencing behaviour long before someone is ready to buy.
This episode completely changed the way I think about content strategy, and I think it'll do the same for you.
Key Takeaways
- Why changing behavior—not selling—is the true goal of marketing.
- The importance of building mental availability before customers are ready to buy.
- How emotion influences almost every purchasing decision.
- A simple behavioral science principle every marketer should use: loss aversion.
- How AI search is changing SEO and content marketing.
- Why transcripts and thought leadership are becoming more important than ever.
- How podcasts help niche B2B companies stay top of mind.
Chapters
00:00 Quick-fire questions: the best and worst marketing advice
03:00 What brand building actually means
06:00 Does a brand reflect the founder?
12:00 Why customers care about outcomes—not your equipment or features
13:30 AI search and the future of content marketing
19:00 Using podcasts to nurture relationships and stay top of mind
21:00 Why strategy should always come before content
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
It's six forty seven PM on a rain soap Tuesday in
Singapore's central businessdistrict.
Most of the lights in the glasstowers have already gone dark.
But on the twenty-third floor ofa pharmaceutical company's
regional headquarters, sixpeople are still sitting around
a conference table.
Coffee cups have been pushedaside.
(00:20):
Jackets hang over chairbacks.
On the screen at the end of theroom, three consultancy names
are arranged in a neat role.
The company is preparing tolaunch a new treatment across
several Asia-Pacific markets.
The science is strong, but everycountry has different
regulations, differentprescribing habits, and
(00:41):
different expectations fromdoctors.
A mistake in the research coulddelay the launch by months.
A weak strategy could cost farmore.
The procurement director opensthe first proposal.
It belongs to a global agencywith offices in more than 40
countries.
The second comes from anothermultinational, a company whose
(01:05):
logo everyone in the roomrecognizes.
The third name is smaller.
It belongs to a boutiqueconsultancy with a fraction of
the staff and none of theobvious scale of its
competitors.
For a few seconds, nobody saysanything.
Then a woman from the medicalteam leans forward.
(01:26):
She's seen that name before.
She can't remember exactlywhere, but she remembers a
conversation about the nextgenerations of doctors and the
changing relationship betweenclinicians and pharmaceutical
companies.
Someone also remembers a shortarticle about launching products
across Asia Pacific.
The marketing director recallslistening to a podcast during a
(01:49):
flight from Sydney.
None of these encounters hadseemed important at the time.
There had been no sales meeting,no urgent request for a
proposal, no obvious buyingsignal.
The people in this room hadsimply come across an idea that
was useful, relevant, andintelligent.
Then they moved on with theirday.
(02:12):
Now, months later, those smallencounters begin joining
together.
The consultancy no longer feelsunknown.
It feels familiar.
The team begins discussing aproposal with a different kind
of attention.
Not because of a dramatic claimor an impressive number on a
slide, but because somewhere inthe background of their mind, a
(02:35):
reputation has already startedto form.
Across the region, the founderof that consultancy is probably
not thinking about this meeting.
He has spent 15 years buildingthe business, beginning alone in
a bedroom in Sydney andgradually expanding across Asia
Pacific.
Most days he faces the samefrustration as any small
(02:58):
business owner.
The market is crowded, largercompetitors are easier to
remember, and at any givenmoment, most potential customers
are not looking for help.
That creates a temptation topublish more, count the clicks,
chase the immediate responses,turn every email, video,
podcast, and article into adirect attempt to sell.
(03:21):
But the people around the tablein Singapore were not ready to
buy when they first encounteredthe consultancy's work.
They were busy with otherprojects, other budgets, and
other problems.
A sales message would havearrived too early.
What stayed with them insteadwas an association.
(03:41):
These people understand ourworld.
The final decision will dependon price, capability, chemistry,
and evidence.
Content alone will not win thecontract.
But before any proposal can beconsidered, a company has to
enter the room even when itsrepresentatives are hundreds of
(04:02):
kilometers away.
This is the quieter work ofmarketing.
Not simply producing materialand merely accumulating views,
but influencing what peopleremember, what they feel, and
who comes to mind when a problemfinally becomes urgent.
The effect may be invisible forsix months, twelve months, or
(04:24):
longer.
Then, one evening, in a meetingyou never knew was happening,
someone points to your name andsays, I know who they are.
I'm Neil Mackay, founder of 7Million Bikes Podcast and Saigon
Podcast Studio.
And this is VM ContentMarketing.
In this episode, Dr.
Neil Doyle explains why customerbehavior matters more than
(04:48):
performance metrics, and whyemotion sits beneath even the
most rational businessdecisions.
We explore how small brands canbuild mental availability,
create valuable touch points,and stay remembered until the
moment a customer is finallyready to act.
(05:17):
This episode is sponsored bySaigon Podcast Studio.
Whether you're launching yourfirst show, recording
interviews, or creatingprofessional audio and video
content, Saigon Podcast Studiogives you the space, equipment,
and support to sound and lookyour best.
(05:38):
Come by for a free tour of thestudio and see where your next
great episode could be recorded.
The link is in the show notes.
So quick answers, one sentence.
Understand your customer.
Worst content marketing adviceyou've ever been given.
SPEAKER_00 (05:59):
A focus on performance metrics.
SPEAKER_01 (06:02):
Well, my next question is what is the only
metric that matters?
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
Mental availability.
SPEAKER_01 (06:07):
Now, in a talk at Sydney University, you said
marketing is more about changingcustomer behavior than just
selling.
Now, for a business ownerposting content every week, what
does that actually mean inpractice?
SPEAKER_00 (06:20):
Well, at the end of the day, there's no change in
your customer's behaviour.
There is no return on yourinvestment.
But really, the challenges foreach individual business owner
to think about their owncustomer journey, all of those
different behaviors along thejourney that you're seeking to
change.
Ultimately, selling clearly isone of them.
But there's many steps thatmight happen along the journey
that you seek to influence.
(06:41):
So the whole point is you needsome kind of strategic intent
around your content marketing.
Is it about building a set ofassociations around a brand?
Is it about driving a particularbehavior at that point in time?
The whole point is you need tothink about it.
You need a strategy rather thanjust going ahead and launching
content.
SPEAKER_01 (07:00):
And when it comes to behavior change, that is the
most difficult thing to do,right?
SPEAKER_00 (07:05):
Yes, and no, if it was easy, we'd all be, yeah,
sitting happy.
Yeah, yeah, again, you've gotyou've got to think about it.
You need a plan, you need astrategy, you need an
understanding about individuallike customer journeys, what are
those touch points you have, butyou can build associations
around your brand, have a thinkabout you, have a feel about
you.
And even if you don't change uhthere's not an immediate
(07:26):
behavioural response at thatpoint in time, you're hoping
that that investment in brandbuilding is going to have an
impact on behaviour at somepoint further down the line.
SPEAKER_01 (07:35):
I love that about brand building and how you feel
because I remember one of myfirst jobs, and my background is
in fundraising, and I remember Iwas putting on an event for
about 10,000 people, big,massive open day.
And the manager at the time shesaid something about brand, I
can't remember exactly what shesaid.
So I just put the logoeverywhere.
(07:56):
I printed it out on pieces ofpaper, I had it on every wall,
and she was like, Why have youdone that?
And I was like, you know, it'sbrand building, it's so the
brand is everywhere.
And she was just like, No,that's I think she said it's how
you you feel about the brand.
Um, and I was like, I stillpringed about that.
SPEAKER_00 (08:11):
Absolutely, and particularly if you go at B2B
marketing, now there's someresearch done recently that
says, you know, in terms of yourcustomers, 95% of your customers
are not thinking about theservice you offer at any
particular point in time.
So if you're sending out allthis content, 95% of people are
just not interested.
So, really, then what's theintent?
The intent is to build some setof associations that when they
(08:35):
do move into that decision modeor actively begin to seeking
services like yours, thatthere's a bit of mental
availability around your brand.
Particularly for like a brandlike ours.
We're a very small boutiquebrand, we compete against big
multinational companies who'vegot tens of thousands of
employees.
So they're easier brands toremember.
So we've got to work even harderto get people to remember us.
(08:58):
So maybe something we throw outtoday is with the intent that
six months from now, 12 monthsfrom now, 18 months from now,
somewhere in the back of theirbrain, they go, Oh yeah, those
guys at Del Tremb, they hadsomething smart to say about
this.
SPEAKER_01 (09:12):
Yeah, I love this because I know I'm really guilty
of it.
I mean, when we started thestudio, I just wanted to do an
ad to sell it.
You know, I wanted to jumpstraight to sales.
And even now, I mean, it's sohard as a business owner because
you want sales.
Yeah.
How do you help coach people tobe like, I know you want sales,
but there's all of this stuffyou've got to do before then?
How do you help people withthat?
SPEAKER_00 (09:33):
Well, for a lot of our clients, but also for
ourselves.
Yeah, we see it as a journey,you know, there's a starting
point, begin people to hearabout you.
There's often a quite complexjourney, and there's lots of
potential different touch pointsalong that journey.
Ultimately, there's going to bea sale, there's going to be a
product experience, andhopefully you repeat because
obviously it doesn't finishthere.
But then you can start thinkingabout what's the strategic
(09:54):
intent of each touch point.
Yeah, this touch point is reallyabout building a cell of
emotionally competentassociations that will have an
impact further down the linewhen they're thinking about
okay, who do I call about thisproblem I have?
SPEAKER_01 (10:07):
Is why I love this podcast.
I mean, already I'm justthinking so much.
I was telling you before fromour previous guest.
I learned so much from this, andI'm already thinking, like, what
is what emotions do people havewhen we think of Saigon Podcast
Studio when they see our reels?
Yep.
I told you we've changed ourbranding now to be more
Vietnamese focused, and they'rethey're pretty funny.
I think maybe as well.
(10:27):
I don't know if that the teamjust that comes from me.
I like to think that I'm prettyfun as well.
Hopefully, maybe they're like, Imean, they even come to me like,
can you be in this real?
We're gonna do this funny thing.
And often I don't even know whatI'm doing, I'll just sit down
and pose and things like that.
So hopefully that is what peopleassociate our brand with is fun
and you know easygoing.
SPEAKER_00 (10:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
And there's gonna be a wholebunch of associations you're
looking to build.
Some of those are gonna be quitehard and functional, and some of
those are gonna be a little bitsofter, a little bit more
emotive, like refer you knowmore to your brand personality
rather than that you know, theexplicit like prep value
proposition.
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (11:05):
And do you think the brand, you're saying brand
personality, should that be amirror of the business founder?
SPEAKER_00 (11:12):
At some point, I think inevitably it will be.
If a business is you or typical,lots of businesses start that
wave as an individual, ofcourse.
So your DNA is all over abusiness.
Certainly from our experience,we've been up and running for 15
years.
So from when I started abusiness in my bedroom in Sydney
to where we are now, you know,Pan-Asia Pacific.
(11:32):
My DNA is still a little bitacross the business, but no,
it's evolved massively.
There's a whole bunch of otherpeople who've been with us a
long time.
Their DNA is part of a business.
Now we've created a valueproposition quite separate and
quite different to where we were15 years ago.
So yeah, I'd see it like ajourney.
SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
And that is really inspiring to hear you started in
your bedroom in Sydney 15 yearsago.
I'm so impatient.
I feel like I'm not moving fastenough, business isn't going
well enough.
You asked me earlier how'sbusiness going, I'm like, nah,
that's okay.
But then every time I just takea step back from myself, and I
think where was I a year ago?
And where was I two or threeyears ago?
I was the same as you.
It was me at home by myself.
(12:13):
I was a freelancer.
Now we have a small team, we'reworking across the world.
We have clients from New Zealandto LA, like literally the globe,
and it's just sometimes taking astep back and going, yeah, it's
uh it's going okay.
SPEAKER_00 (12:24):
Yeah, you know, when you when you're climbing up the
mountain, you know, it's good tolook down a little bit, just see
how far you've come, how muchyou've achieved, give yourself a
pat on the back, and then sortof look up and see, oh my god,
so so much more to do.
SPEAKER_01 (12:35):
So, you guys at Delta MV, you are experts in
behavioral insights.
What's one principle frombehavioral science that a small
business owner could use in thenext piece of content?
SPEAKER_00 (12:46):
First thing you need to think about is emotion
underpins everything.
Even those decisions that welove to think as being very
rational are all underpinned byemotion.
So behavioral science is a greatframework to help you unpack
what some of those emotions areand give you some practical
ideas about how you can tap intothat.
So, very simply, uh, one of theideas we use a lot is the idea
(13:08):
of loss aversion, the idea thatlosing$10 has twice the
emotional impact of winning$10.
So in marketing, we're so usedto talking about the value
proposition, what value we bringto our clients.
Well, flip it and talk aboutwhat they lose by not working
with you.
SPEAKER_01 (13:25):
I'm sitting here thinking I just sent off a big
proposal yesterday, one of theprobably the biggest proposal
we've ever sent off.
And I'm thinking, did I do that?
Maybe I could have done a littlebit more.
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
But anyway.
You could list out the top 20heuristics or nudges that you
work with.
And yeah, it gives you ideasabout messaging, it gives you
ideas about content, it can giveyou ideas about how you can
better support your clients.
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
And can you share an example of some content you've
seen recently that you thoughtdid really well?
SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
Yeah, I read something an article I picked up
on LinkedIn just last week.
It was from uh AustralianDoctor, which is one of the
publications directed towardsGPs in Australia.
And they did a really nice pieceof research about the next
generation of GPs and whythey're different to the
previous generations in terms oftheir level of trust with the
pharma industry, how they howthey consume communication, what
(14:16):
channels they like, etc.
It worked really well becausethat's an area I'm very
interested in.
It's there my clients areinterested in.
It was based on research.
Yeah, it's just something Iimmediately brought value to me.
I saw it, I clicked on it, Idownloaded it.
Why?
Because when I saw that clearly,it was something of value and
(14:37):
interest to me.
SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
Now you spend a lot of your time advising global
pharma brands, and they are someof the most regulated marketers
on earth.
You can't make most of theclaims that other marketers take
for granted.
What have you learned from thoseconstraints that other business
owners could apply?
SPEAKER_00 (14:54):
Yeah, it's a really valid point.
The pharmaceutical industry,quite rightly, is heavily
regulated in the claims you canmake.
As an industry, a lot of people,their background is a medical
background, they're verycomfortable talking about the
data, talking about the facts.
But you know, going back to myearlier point about we know that
human decision making as aspecies is driven by emotion.
(15:17):
So, what can we do about that?
So, we do a lot of work for ourclients about elevating the
conversation from perhapstalking about a product feature
to talking about a productbenefit to talking about an
emotional benefit.
So, for example, you might havea particular group of clinicians
who are very, very focused onthe science of their particular
therapeutic area.
That's that's where theirpassion is.
(15:38):
You might have another group ofclinicians, also equally good
clinicians, but are very, veryfocused, let's say, on the human
element, their interaction withthe patients.
So the way you might talk abouta specific piece of data to
those two groups, it might beexpressed in slightly different
ways.
And that really is within thatvery kind of confined space of a
(16:00):
regulatory environment, there isstill room for manoeuvre to
start thinking about, okay,what's the key emotional benefit
that this particular group ofclinicians is looking for?
How might we express the datadifferently to this other group
of clinicians who've got aslightly different emotional
focus?
SPEAKER_01 (16:16):
And do you see other exaggerated claims that maybe
like I wish we not I wish wecould do that, but we can do
that?
I'm just thinking from myperspective, I remember I was
putting together something forthe website and it was how many
downloads that we've helpedwith.
And whoever it was I was talkingto might have been our head of
marketing, and she was like,just say millions.
And I was like, but I don't knowif it is millions, and she's
(16:38):
like, Yeah, but nobody's gonnafact check it.
It's fine, you can say that.
And I think it is millions now,but at the time it maybe wasn't.
So we say we've helped withmillions of downloads.
Again, nobody's gonna fact checkthat.
But for you guys doing medicineand data and science, you just
can't say numbers that are kindof close, right?
SPEAKER_00 (16:55):
Yeah, that that that should be taken for granted.
But no, we don't no, we don'tmake numbers up, obviously.
But I would challenge you interms of you're saying about the
millions of downloads.
No, for me, that is a datapoint, whether it's true or not.
The point is, okay, me as apotential customer, why would I
care?
What's a value proposition thatyou're trying to express by
giving me that piece of data?
(17:16):
Maybe it's the idea that I canhelp you be successful, and that
20 million millions of downloadsis really a proof point of your
value proposition.
It's not a value proposition inand of itself.
So, again, that's wheremarketing, you know, having a
clear strategic framework forthinking about what you want to
communicate to who and why, thenwhat is the role of data within
(17:41):
that?
SPEAKER_01 (17:42):
And I remember in the beginning as well, I've
somewhere on the website I hadlisted basically every piece of
equipment that we had.
And you're laughing at becausesomebody was just like, nobody
cares about that equipment.
I've literally written down themodel of the light stand and
things like this.
Why?
People just want to know theoutcome.
Does it look good?
Yeah, how easy it is to come inand record not who makes the
light stand and what modelnumber it is.
(18:03):
And that was how di that was howintricate I got.
SPEAKER_00 (18:05):
Yeah, no, it's it's really natural.
I think everyone does it, andcertainly we've done it in the
past, and at some level we'vestill to do it.
You know, we we we talk aboutourselves, we talk about what we
think is good about us.
But really, you know, greatmarketing, great content
marketing uses a customer as astarting point.
What are they interested in?
You know, that is the startingpoint.
They're interested in growingtheir business, they're
(18:27):
interested in having aprofessional service, they're
interested in you know, havingan enjoyable time, producing
content that really stands out.
That is what you should betalking about.
Then anything else about whatkind of maker camera you have,
at best is a proof point thatyou can deliver that.
SPEAKER_01 (18:45):
So, what is the most overlooked content channel for
B2B right now?
SPEAKER_00 (18:49):
Not necessarily overlooked, but I think it's one
that warrants a lot of attentionand a lot of people are looking
at.
And that really is about AIsearch.
As we all know, you know, ifjust a year ago, we would all go
online, we would Google, it'sall about Google Words, etc.
Now that we know that the largelanguage models are being used
for 60, 70% of search, this is acompletely different ball game.
(19:13):
And as a business, we'rethinking about it.
What does this mean for us interms of our website?
How is our website structured?
Is it open to be patrolled bythese large language models?
What does it mean in terms ofcontent?
And certainly one of the thingswe're looking at is based on
external advice is maybe we it'snot only about video content, we
should be also perhaps having atranscript of that that can be
(19:36):
more easily searched.
The idea that AI search now isgoing to be based on a level of
expertise in a particular areais kind of a big impact.
SPEAKER_01 (19:47):
Even before the boom from AI, it's something that we
do on our website and we adviseyou should always have the
transcript on your web pagebecause Google will crawl that.
But what you do is you kind ofput it under a toggle button, so
it's by default it's hidden.
SPEAKER_00 (20:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:01):
Because nobody really wants to see the full
transcript when they go on yourwebsite, but it's purely there
because Google will crawl it andread it.
And the AI thing is is crazy.
I was at a conference recently,and the guy had been able to
prove that he had essentiallytricked AI.
He'd made up an AI sport, Ithink it was called water pot
(20:22):
water horse racing or somethinglike this.
It was completely made up.
And I guess he'd been able to doall these things online, and
then he was able to show that ifyou went on to ChatGBT or any of
these AI large language modelsand search for it, it would come
up with the history and how manycountries were participating.
And he was like, I made this upand it's now been picked up by
(20:44):
AI.
And I was like, That's crazy.
SPEAKER_00 (20:46):
Yeah, there's uh you know, when it first, I don't
know, people started using itwhat two years back now, there's
a lot of things abouthallucinating, but our
experience has been every weekit gets better and better and
better.
So I think anecdotes like thatare gonna get fewer and fewer.
But really, I think that's onlyfor us, our business, we're
thinking about okay, how are wegonna market ourselves in this
(21:07):
new AI search-driven world?
SPEAKER_01 (21:09):
Could you give me a bit more of an example on that?
Say someone goes to Chat GPT orGroc or whatever the other, all
the other ones are called,Gemini.
What do you think they mightsearch for if they were looking
to work with a pharmaceuticalmarketing company?
And how are you making sure theDelta MV shows up on that?
SPEAKER_00 (21:25):
We're making assumption, people aren't going
to type in.
I'm looking for a marketresearch company, a specialist
in healthcare across AsiaPacific, which is perhaps what
people used to do.
Maybe now it's a lot more I'mlaunching a new drug across Asia
Pacific or these markets.
What do I need to do?
And we want to ensure thatsomewhere our service, our
thinking is part of that answer.
SPEAKER_01 (21:47):
So you would be one of the sources that it would
reference potentially?
SPEAKER_00 (21:51):
Yeah.
So again, we're trying to buildour increasingly build our
credibility of our brand, ourexpertise, yeah, our thought
leadership.
SPEAKER_01 (21:59):
And Do you think podcasts can help with that?
SPEAKER_00 (22:02):
Yeah, definitely.
I've always been a big fan ofpodcasts anyway.
It suits our world of marketingvery, very well.
We've got very clearly definedtarget market, maybe like three,
four, five thousand peopleacross Asia Pacific.
And many of them, we alreadyhave a relationship with many of
those people.
It's about maintaining andfeeding that relationship,
(22:22):
giving them some value, havingan excuse to stay in touch with
them.
And podcasts for us help enableus to do that really, really
well.
SPEAKER_01 (22:29):
Now, Delta MV is a boutique consultancy, not a
massive marketing agency with amassive team.
How are you marketing Delta MVday-to-day?
SPEAKER_00 (22:38):
Yeah, it's a challenge as a small boutique
brand, very, very specialized,as I shared earlier.
At any point in time, probably95% of our target market are not
actively seeking out ourservices.
As a small brand, by definition,we're easily forgotten.
We're competing against bigglobal players with tens of
(22:58):
thousands of employees.
So that's why it's really,really critical that we maintain
this ongoing relationship.
We maintain both frequency oftouch point as well as quality.
So quality really is about thatthought leadership position that
separates us from ourcompetitors, but also frequency.
So if we send an email, we makea call, we need a reason.
(23:20):
We can't just say, hey, how arethings?
What are you doing?
No, what we say, like we try andbring value.
So if we reach out to someone,we need to bring value to that
interaction, which is afundamental principle for me of
good content marketing.
So we need to understand whatthey're interested in.
Hey, here's something we did,here's a bit of thought
leadership, here's a bit ofthinking, here's a bit of
(23:42):
research that we did that webelieve you will find of value.
So really that that's what wedo.
I said we've got very clearlydefined like target market.
For many of those, we knowexactly who these people are.
So we're reaching out, email,other channels, uh specialist
conferences, etc.
And yeah, podcasts play areally, really useful role in
(24:02):
that, as in it's kind of easy todigest, it's short, it's
flexible, you know, we can doshorts from it, we can do the
longer version, we can veryeasily move from, let's say, an
interesting podcast to a shortwhite paper that can be
downloaded.
So, really, yeah, it's a it's ano, the podcast really is a
central part of a wholemarketing platform.
SPEAKER_01 (24:23):
So, do you have some examples of how a podcast has
had some direct consequences foryou?
SPEAKER_00 (24:27):
Yeah, it really helps those two key marketing
objectives that we have aboutbrand building, building that
set of you know what peoplethink and what people feel about
us, and also just like frequencyof touch points that we have.
So it gives us a really, reallygood excuse to get in touch with
people.
We can bring something of value,something that we know they'll
find interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (24:48):
I remember, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I
remember in the beginning whenyou did your first podcast, when
we did your first podcasttogether, talking about that,
those touch points and having areason to talk to people.
I remember you said to me, wesent out the first podcast and
immediately we got a responsesaying, Hey, we hadn't heard
from you guys in so long.
Let's have a meeting and it ledto I think like a big, a big
(25:08):
contract.
SPEAKER_00 (25:10):
To be honest, that's pretty rare.
But yeah, but I'd I'd expect itto be rare because you know, for
us it's not like a performancemarketing getting an immediate
response.
You know, it certainly hashappened, and that's great.
No, we're not going to say no,but for us, really, it's about
playing the long game.
We see it as a very, very usefulbrand building device,
particularly to a broader rangeof stakeholders.
(25:31):
You know, increasingly we'relearning in business-to-business
marketing, you've got your coredecision maker, but there's
loads of other people within thebusiness that, you know, also
can have a role in decisionmaking, maybe the legal team,
the market access team, aregulatory team, the HR team.
So podcasts are a great way ofreaching out to that broader
group of stakeholders within abusiness at some point when
(25:54):
they're looking at competitivepitches.
Now they're like, oh, DelTrimby, I know who they are.
Oh, they're the guys who didthis rather than like who the
hell are these people?
SPEAKER_01 (26:03):
I mean, I just love everything about that and the
reason why, for many reasons.
One is it's about having a nichepodcast.
That's what we try and tellpeople.
Podcasts are not Joe Rogan,they're not the Mel Robbins
podcast.
These are all backed by massivestudios, they reach thousands
and thousands of people.
They're not really selling muchper se apart from just generic
advertising.
I try and tell people if you getjust 50 people, even 10 people
(26:26):
that listen to your podcast, butthose are 10 decision makers,
those are 10 people in yourfield who will maybe use your
service one day.
That's way more important thanI've I've had a meeting before
with we want 5,000 views.
And I went, why?
And they went, because we justwant everyone and anyone to
watch it.
And I went, you do IT security,the only people who ever buy
(26:46):
your product are uh CTOs or CFOsor CEOs, like you'd be better
having 50 of them watch yourcontent than have 5,000.
Like, no, no, our KPI is 5,000or something like that.
SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
Which goes back to what I was saying earlier.
Do you mean it's yeah, what'syour strategy?
You know, what's the strategicintent of leech activity?
Podcasts they're they're they'rea technique, it's not a
strategy.
You know, what's your strategy?
Who do you want to reach?
What do you want to think?
What do you want to feel?
What how do you want them toact?
And then think about the role ofpodcasts within that.
SPEAKER_01 (27:17):
Or New, thank you very much for joining us on
Vietnam Content Marketing.
Been a pleasure.
(27:41):
This episode is hosted by me,Neil Mikkay, with production,
editing, and support from the 7Million Bikes Podcast team.
Thanks for listening.
Follow Vietnam Content Marketingwherever you get your podcasts,
and visit 7 million bikespodcast to learn more about the
team behind the show.
It's six forty seven PM on a rain soap Tuesday in
Singapore's central businessdistrict.
Most of the lights in the glasstowers have already gone dark.
But on the twenty-third floor ofa pharmaceutical company's
regional headquarters, sixpeople are still sitting around
a conference table.
Coffee cups have been pushedaside.
(00:20):
Jackets hang over chairbacks.
On the screen at the end of theroom, three consultancy names
are arranged in a neat role.
The company is preparing tolaunch a new treatment across
several Asia-Pacific markets.
The science is strong, but everycountry has different
regulations, differentprescribing habits, and
(00:41):
different expectations fromdoctors.
A mistake in the research coulddelay the launch by months.
A weak strategy could cost farmore.
The procurement director opensthe first proposal.
It belongs to a global agencywith offices in more than 40
countries.
The second comes from anothermultinational, a company whose
(01:05):
logo everyone in the roomrecognizes.
The third name is smaller.
It belongs to a boutiqueconsultancy with a fraction of
the staff and none of theobvious scale of its
competitors.
For a few seconds, nobody saysanything.
Then a woman from the medicalteam leans forward.
(01:26):
She's seen that name before.
She can't remember exactlywhere, but she remembers a
conversation about the nextgenerations of doctors and the
changing relationship betweenclinicians and pharmaceutical
companies.
Someone also remembers a shortarticle about launching products
across Asia Pacific.
The marketing director recallslistening to a podcast during a
(01:49):
flight from Sydney.
None of these encounters hadseemed important at the time.
There had been no sales meeting,no urgent request for a
proposal, no obvious buyingsignal.
The people in this room hadsimply come across an idea that
was useful, relevant, andintelligent.
Then they moved on with theirday.
(02:12):
Now, months later, those smallencounters begin joining
together.
The consultancy no longer feelsunknown.
It feels familiar.
The team begins discussing aproposal with a different kind
of attention.
Not because of a dramatic claimor an impressive number on a
slide, but because somewhere inthe background of their mind, a
(02:35):
reputation has already startedto form.
Across the region, the founderof that consultancy is probably
not thinking about this meeting.
He has spent 15 years buildingthe business, beginning alone in
a bedroom in Sydney andgradually expanding across Asia
Pacific.
Most days he faces the samefrustration as any small
(02:58):
business owner.
The market is crowded, largercompetitors are easier to
remember, and at any givenmoment, most potential customers
are not looking for help.
That creates a temptation topublish more, count the clicks,
chase the immediate responses,turn every email, video,
podcast, and article into adirect attempt to sell.
(03:21):
But the people around the tablein Singapore were not ready to
buy when they first encounteredthe consultancy's work.
They were busy with otherprojects, other budgets, and
other problems.
A sales message would havearrived too early.
What stayed with them insteadwas an association.
(03:41):
These people understand ourworld.
The final decision will dependon price, capability, chemistry,
and evidence.
Content alone will not win thecontract.
But before any proposal can beconsidered, a company has to
enter the room even when itsrepresentatives are hundreds of
(04:02):
kilometers away.
This is the quieter work ofmarketing.
Not simply producing materialand merely accumulating views,
but influencing what peopleremember, what they feel, and
who comes to mind when a problemfinally becomes urgent.
The effect may be invisible forsix months, twelve months, or
(04:24):
longer.
Then, one evening, in a meetingyou never knew was happening,
someone points to your name andsays, I know who they are.
I'm Neil Mackay, founder of 7Million Bikes Podcast and Saigon
Podcast Studio.
And this is VM ContentMarketing.
In this episode, Dr.
Neil Doyle explains why customerbehavior matters more than
(04:48):
performance metrics, and whyemotion sits beneath even the
most rational businessdecisions.
We explore how small brands canbuild mental availability,
create valuable touch points,and stay remembered until the
moment a customer is finallyready to act.
(05:17):
This episode is sponsored bySaigon Podcast Studio.
Whether you're launching yourfirst show, recording
interviews, or creatingprofessional audio and video
content, Saigon Podcast Studiogives you the space, equipment,
and support to sound and lookyour best.
(05:38):
Come by for a free tour of thestudio and see where your next
great episode could be recorded.
The link is in the show notes.
So quick answers, one sentence.
Understand your customer.
Worst content marketing adviceyou've ever been given.
SPEAKER_00 (05:59):
A focus on performance metrics.
SPEAKER_01 (06:02):
Well, my next question is what is the only
metric that matters?
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
Mental availability.
SPEAKER_01 (06:07):
Now, in a talk at Sydney University, you said
marketing is more about changingcustomer behavior than just
selling.
Now, for a business ownerposting content every week, what
does that actually mean inpractice?
SPEAKER_00 (06:20):
Well, at the end of the day, there's no change in
your customer's behaviour.
There is no return on yourinvestment.
But really, the challenges foreach individual business owner
to think about their owncustomer journey, all of those
different behaviors along thejourney that you're seeking to
change.
Ultimately, selling clearly isone of them.
But there's many steps thatmight happen along the journey
that you seek to influence.
(06:41):
So the whole point is you needsome kind of strategic intent
around your content marketing.
Is it about building a set ofassociations around a brand?
Is it about driving a particularbehavior at that point in time?
The whole point is you need tothink about it.
You need a strategy rather thanjust going ahead and launching
content.
SPEAKER_01 (07:00):
And when it comes to behavior change, that is the
most difficult thing to do,right?
SPEAKER_00 (07:05):
Yes, and no, if it was easy, we'd all be, yeah,
sitting happy.
Yeah, yeah, again, you've gotyou've got to think about it.
You need a plan, you need astrategy, you need an
understanding about individuallike customer journeys, what are
those touch points you have, butyou can build associations
around your brand, have a thinkabout you, have a feel about
you.
And even if you don't change uhthere's not an immediate
(07:26):
behavioural response at thatpoint in time, you're hoping
that that investment in brandbuilding is going to have an
impact on behaviour at somepoint further down the line.
SPEAKER_01 (07:35):
I love that about brand building and how you feel
because I remember one of myfirst jobs, and my background is
in fundraising, and I remember Iwas putting on an event for
about 10,000 people, big,massive open day.
And the manager at the time shesaid something about brand, I
can't remember exactly what shesaid.
So I just put the logoeverywhere.
(07:56):
I printed it out on pieces ofpaper, I had it on every wall,
and she was like, Why have youdone that?
And I was like, you know, it'sbrand building, it's so the
brand is everywhere.
And she was just like, No,that's I think she said it's how
you you feel about the brand.
Um, and I was like, I stillpringed about that.
SPEAKER_00 (08:11):
Absolutely, and particularly if you go at B2B
marketing, now there's someresearch done recently that
says, you know, in terms of yourcustomers, 95% of your customers
are not thinking about theservice you offer at any
particular point in time.
So if you're sending out allthis content, 95% of people are
just not interested.
So, really, then what's theintent?
The intent is to build some setof associations that when they
(08:35):
do move into that decision modeor actively begin to seeking
services like yours, thatthere's a bit of mental
availability around your brand.
Particularly for like a brandlike ours.
We're a very small boutiquebrand, we compete against big
multinational companies who'vegot tens of thousands of
employees.
So they're easier brands toremember.
So we've got to work even harderto get people to remember us.
(08:58):
So maybe something we throw outtoday is with the intent that
six months from now, 12 monthsfrom now, 18 months from now,
somewhere in the back of theirbrain, they go, Oh yeah, those
guys at Del Tremb, they hadsomething smart to say about
this.
SPEAKER_01 (09:12):
Yeah, I love this because I know I'm really guilty
of it.
I mean, when we started thestudio, I just wanted to do an
ad to sell it.
You know, I wanted to jumpstraight to sales.
And even now, I mean, it's sohard as a business owner because
you want sales.
Yeah.
How do you help coach people tobe like, I know you want sales,
but there's all of this stuffyou've got to do before then?
How do you help people withthat?
SPEAKER_00 (09:33):
Well, for a lot of our clients, but also for
ourselves.
Yeah, we see it as a journey,you know, there's a starting
point, begin people to hearabout you.
There's often a quite complexjourney, and there's lots of
potential different touch pointsalong that journey.
Ultimately, there's going to bea sale, there's going to be a
product experience, andhopefully you repeat because
obviously it doesn't finishthere.
But then you can start thinkingabout what's the strategic
(09:54):
intent of each touch point.
Yeah, this touch point is reallyabout building a cell of
emotionally competentassociations that will have an
impact further down the linewhen they're thinking about
okay, who do I call about thisproblem I have?
SPEAKER_01 (10:07):
Is why I love this podcast.
I mean, already I'm justthinking so much.
I was telling you before fromour previous guest.
I learned so much from this, andI'm already thinking, like, what
is what emotions do people havewhen we think of Saigon Podcast
Studio when they see our reels?
Yep.
I told you we've changed ourbranding now to be more
Vietnamese focused, and they'rethey're pretty funny.
I think maybe as well.
(10:27):
I don't know if that the teamjust that comes from me.
I like to think that I'm prettyfun as well.
Hopefully, maybe they're like, Imean, they even come to me like,
can you be in this real?
We're gonna do this funny thing.
And often I don't even know whatI'm doing, I'll just sit down
and pose and things like that.
So hopefully that is what peopleassociate our brand with is fun
and you know easygoing.
SPEAKER_00 (10:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
And there's gonna be a wholebunch of associations you're
looking to build.
Some of those are gonna be quitehard and functional, and some of
those are gonna be a little bitsofter, a little bit more
emotive, like refer you knowmore to your brand personality
rather than that you know, theexplicit like prep value
proposition.
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (11:05):
And do you think the brand, you're saying brand
personality, should that be amirror of the business founder?
SPEAKER_00 (11:12):
At some point, I think inevitably it will be.
If a business is you or typical,lots of businesses start that
wave as an individual, ofcourse.
So your DNA is all over abusiness.
Certainly from our experience,we've been up and running for 15
years.
So from when I started abusiness in my bedroom in Sydney
to where we are now, you know,Pan-Asia Pacific.
(11:32):
My DNA is still a little bitacross the business, but no,
it's evolved massively.
There's a whole bunch of otherpeople who've been with us a
long time.
Their DNA is part of a business.
Now we've created a valueproposition quite separate and
quite different to where we were15 years ago.
So yeah, I'd see it like ajourney.
SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
And that is really inspiring to hear you started in
your bedroom in Sydney 15 yearsago.
I'm so impatient.
I feel like I'm not moving fastenough, business isn't going
well enough.
You asked me earlier how'sbusiness going, I'm like, nah,
that's okay.
But then every time I just takea step back from myself, and I
think where was I a year ago?
And where was I two or threeyears ago?
I was the same as you.
It was me at home by myself.
(12:13):
I was a freelancer.
Now we have a small team, we'reworking across the world.
We have clients from New Zealandto LA, like literally the globe,
and it's just sometimes taking astep back and going, yeah, it's
uh it's going okay.
SPEAKER_00 (12:24):
Yeah, you know, when you when you're climbing up the
mountain, you know, it's good tolook down a little bit, just see
how far you've come, how muchyou've achieved, give yourself a
pat on the back, and then sortof look up and see, oh my god,
so so much more to do.
SPEAKER_01 (12:35):
So, you guys at Delta MV, you are experts in
behavioral insights.
What's one principle frombehavioral science that a small
business owner could use in thenext piece of content?
SPEAKER_00 (12:46):
First thing you need to think about is emotion
underpins everything.
Even those decisions that welove to think as being very
rational are all underpinned byemotion.
So behavioral science is a greatframework to help you unpack
what some of those emotions areand give you some practical
ideas about how you can tap intothat.
So, very simply, uh, one of theideas we use a lot is the idea
(13:08):
of loss aversion, the idea thatlosing$10 has twice the
emotional impact of winning$10.
So in marketing, we're so usedto talking about the value
proposition, what value we bringto our clients.
Well, flip it and talk aboutwhat they lose by not working
with you.
SPEAKER_01 (13:25):
I'm sitting here thinking I just sent off a big
proposal yesterday, one of theprobably the biggest proposal
we've ever sent off.
And I'm thinking, did I do that?
Maybe I could have done a littlebit more.
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
But anyway.
You could list out the top 20heuristics or nudges that you
work with.
And yeah, it gives you ideasabout messaging, it gives you
ideas about content, it can giveyou ideas about how you can
better support your clients.
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
And can you share an example of some content you've
seen recently that you thoughtdid really well?
SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
Yeah, I read something an article I picked up
on LinkedIn just last week.
It was from uh AustralianDoctor, which is one of the
publications directed towardsGPs in Australia.
And they did a really nice pieceof research about the next
generation of GPs and whythey're different to the
previous generations in terms oftheir level of trust with the
pharma industry, how they howthey consume communication, what
(14:16):
channels they like, etc.
It worked really well becausethat's an area I'm very
interested in.
It's there my clients areinterested in.
It was based on research.
Yeah, it's just something Iimmediately brought value to me.
I saw it, I clicked on it, Idownloaded it.
Why?
Because when I saw that clearly,it was something of value and
(14:37):
interest to me.
SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
Now you spend a lot of your time advising global
pharma brands, and they are someof the most regulated marketers
on earth.
You can't make most of theclaims that other marketers take
for granted.
What have you learned from thoseconstraints that other business
owners could apply?
SPEAKER_00 (14:54):
Yeah, it's a really valid point.
The pharmaceutical industry,quite rightly, is heavily
regulated in the claims you canmake.
As an industry, a lot of people,their background is a medical
background, they're verycomfortable talking about the
data, talking about the facts.
But you know, going back to myearlier point about we know that
human decision making as aspecies is driven by emotion.
(15:17):
So, what can we do about that?
So, we do a lot of work for ourclients about elevating the
conversation from perhapstalking about a product feature
to talking about a productbenefit to talking about an
emotional benefit.
So, for example, you might havea particular group of clinicians
who are very, very focused onthe science of their particular
therapeutic area.
That's that's where theirpassion is.
(15:38):
You might have another group ofclinicians, also equally good
clinicians, but are very, veryfocused, let's say, on the human
element, their interaction withthe patients.
So the way you might talk abouta specific piece of data to
those two groups, it might beexpressed in slightly different
ways.
And that really is within thatvery kind of confined space of a
(16:00):
regulatory environment, there isstill room for manoeuvre to
start thinking about, okay,what's the key emotional benefit
that this particular group ofclinicians is looking for?
How might we express the datadifferently to this other group
of clinicians who've got aslightly different emotional
focus?
SPEAKER_01 (16:16):
And do you see other exaggerated claims that maybe
like I wish we not I wish wecould do that, but we can do
that?
I'm just thinking from myperspective, I remember I was
putting together something forthe website and it was how many
downloads that we've helpedwith.
And whoever it was I was talkingto might have been our head of
marketing, and she was like,just say millions.
And I was like, but I don't knowif it is millions, and she's
(16:38):
like, Yeah, but nobody's gonnafact check it.
It's fine, you can say that.
And I think it is millions now,but at the time it maybe wasn't.
So we say we've helped withmillions of downloads.
Again, nobody's gonna fact checkthat.
But for you guys doing medicineand data and science, you just
can't say numbers that are kindof close, right?
SPEAKER_00 (16:55):
Yeah, that that that should be taken for granted.
But no, we don't no, we don'tmake numbers up, obviously.
But I would challenge you interms of you're saying about the
millions of downloads.
No, for me, that is a datapoint, whether it's true or not.
The point is, okay, me as apotential customer, why would I
care?
What's a value proposition thatyou're trying to express by
giving me that piece of data?
(17:16):
Maybe it's the idea that I canhelp you be successful, and that
20 million millions of downloadsis really a proof point of your
value proposition.
It's not a value proposition inand of itself.
So, again, that's wheremarketing, you know, having a
clear strategic framework forthinking about what you want to
communicate to who and why, thenwhat is the role of data within
(17:41):
that?
SPEAKER_01 (17:42):
And I remember in the beginning as well, I've
somewhere on the website I hadlisted basically every piece of
equipment that we had.
And you're laughing at becausesomebody was just like, nobody
cares about that equipment.
I've literally written down themodel of the light stand and
things like this.
Why?
People just want to know theoutcome.
Does it look good?
Yeah, how easy it is to come inand record not who makes the
light stand and what modelnumber it is.
(18:03):
And that was how di that was howintricate I got.
SPEAKER_00 (18:05):
Yeah, no, it's it's really natural.
I think everyone does it, andcertainly we've done it in the
past, and at some level we'vestill to do it.
You know, we we we talk aboutourselves, we talk about what we
think is good about us.
But really, you know, greatmarketing, great content
marketing uses a customer as astarting point.
What are they interested in?
You know, that is the startingpoint.
They're interested in growingtheir business, they're
(18:27):
interested in having aprofessional service, they're
interested in you know, havingan enjoyable time, producing
content that really stands out.
That is what you should betalking about.
Then anything else about whatkind of maker camera you have,
at best is a proof point thatyou can deliver that.
SPEAKER_01 (18:45):
So, what is the most overlooked content channel for
B2B right now?
SPEAKER_00 (18:49):
Not necessarily overlooked, but I think it's one
that warrants a lot of attentionand a lot of people are looking
at.
And that really is about AIsearch.
As we all know, you know, ifjust a year ago, we would all go
online, we would Google, it'sall about Google Words, etc.
Now that we know that the largelanguage models are being used
for 60, 70% of search, this is acompletely different ball game.
(19:13):
And as a business, we'rethinking about it.
What does this mean for us interms of our website?
How is our website structured?
Is it open to be patrolled bythese large language models?
What does it mean in terms ofcontent?
And certainly one of the thingswe're looking at is based on
external advice is maybe we it'snot only about video content, we
should be also perhaps having atranscript of that that can be
(19:36):
more easily searched.
The idea that AI search now isgoing to be based on a level of
expertise in a particular areais kind of a big impact.
SPEAKER_01 (19:47):
Even before the boom from AI, it's something that we
do on our website and we adviseyou should always have the
transcript on your web pagebecause Google will crawl that.
But what you do is you kind ofput it under a toggle button, so
it's by default it's hidden.
SPEAKER_00 (20:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:01):
Because nobody really wants to see the full
transcript when they go on yourwebsite, but it's purely there
because Google will crawl it andread it.
And the AI thing is is crazy.
I was at a conference recently,and the guy had been able to
prove that he had essentiallytricked AI.
He'd made up an AI sport, Ithink it was called water pot
(20:22):
water horse racing or somethinglike this.
It was completely made up.
And I guess he'd been able to doall these things online, and
then he was able to show that ifyou went on to ChatGBT or any of
these AI large language modelsand search for it, it would come
up with the history and how manycountries were participating.
And he was like, I made this upand it's now been picked up by
(20:44):
AI.
And I was like, That's crazy.
SPEAKER_00 (20:46):
Yeah, there's uh you know, when it first, I don't
know, people started using itwhat two years back now, there's
a lot of things abouthallucinating, but our
experience has been every weekit gets better and better and
better.
So I think anecdotes like thatare gonna get fewer and fewer.
But really, I think that's onlyfor us, our business, we're
thinking about okay, how are wegonna market ourselves in this
(21:07):
new AI search-driven world?
SPEAKER_01 (21:09):
Could you give me a bit more of an example on that?
Say someone goes to Chat GPT orGroc or whatever the other, all
the other ones are called,Gemini.
What do you think they mightsearch for if they were looking
to work with a pharmaceuticalmarketing company?
And how are you making sure theDelta MV shows up on that?
SPEAKER_00 (21:25):
We're making assumption, people aren't going
to type in.
I'm looking for a marketresearch company, a specialist
in healthcare across AsiaPacific, which is perhaps what
people used to do.
Maybe now it's a lot more I'mlaunching a new drug across Asia
Pacific or these markets.
What do I need to do?
And we want to ensure thatsomewhere our service, our
thinking is part of that answer.
SPEAKER_01 (21:47):
So you would be one of the sources that it would
reference potentially?
SPEAKER_00 (21:51):
Yeah.
So again, we're trying to buildour increasingly build our
credibility of our brand, ourexpertise, yeah, our thought
leadership.
SPEAKER_01 (21:59):
And Do you think podcasts can help with that?
SPEAKER_00 (22:02):
Yeah, definitely.
I've always been a big fan ofpodcasts anyway.
It suits our world of marketingvery, very well.
We've got very clearly definedtarget market, maybe like three,
four, five thousand peopleacross Asia Pacific.
And many of them, we alreadyhave a relationship with many of
those people.
It's about maintaining andfeeding that relationship,
(22:22):
giving them some value, havingan excuse to stay in touch with
them.
And podcasts for us help enableus to do that really, really
well.
SPEAKER_01 (22:29):
Now, Delta MV is a boutique consultancy, not a
massive marketing agency with amassive team.
How are you marketing Delta MVday-to-day?
SPEAKER_00 (22:38):
Yeah, it's a challenge as a small boutique
brand, very, very specialized,as I shared earlier.
At any point in time, probably95% of our target market are not
actively seeking out ourservices.
As a small brand, by definition,we're easily forgotten.
We're competing against bigglobal players with tens of
(22:58):
thousands of employees.
So that's why it's really,really critical that we maintain
this ongoing relationship.
We maintain both frequency oftouch point as well as quality.
So quality really is about thatthought leadership position that
separates us from ourcompetitors, but also frequency.
So if we send an email, we makea call, we need a reason.
(23:20):
We can't just say, hey, how arethings?
What are you doing?
No, what we say, like we try andbring value.
So if we reach out to someone,we need to bring value to that
interaction, which is afundamental principle for me of
good content marketing.
So we need to understand whatthey're interested in.
Hey, here's something we did,here's a bit of thought
leadership, here's a bit ofthinking, here's a bit of
(23:42):
research that we did that webelieve you will find of value.
So really that that's what wedo.
I said we've got very clearlydefined like target market.
For many of those, we knowexactly who these people are.
So we're reaching out, email,other channels, uh specialist
conferences, etc.
And yeah, podcasts play areally, really useful role in
(24:02):
that, as in it's kind of easy todigest, it's short, it's
flexible, you know, we can doshorts from it, we can do the
longer version, we can veryeasily move from, let's say, an
interesting podcast to a shortwhite paper that can be
downloaded.
So, really, yeah, it's a it's ano, the podcast really is a
central part of a wholemarketing platform.
SPEAKER_01 (24:23):
So, do you have some examples of how a podcast has
had some direct consequences foryou?
SPEAKER_00 (24:27):
Yeah, it really helps those two key marketing
objectives that we have aboutbrand building, building that
set of you know what peoplethink and what people feel about
us, and also just like frequencyof touch points that we have.
So it gives us a really, reallygood excuse to get in touch with
people.
We can bring something of value,something that we know they'll
find interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (24:48):
I remember, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I
remember in the beginning whenyou did your first podcast, when
we did your first podcasttogether, talking about that,
those touch points and having areason to talk to people.
I remember you said to me, wesent out the first podcast and
immediately we got a responsesaying, Hey, we hadn't heard
from you guys in so long.
Let's have a meeting and it ledto I think like a big, a big
(25:08):
contract.
SPEAKER_00 (25:10):
To be honest, that's pretty rare.
But yeah, but I'd I'd expect itto be rare because you know, for
us it's not like a performancemarketing getting an immediate
response.
You know, it certainly hashappened, and that's great.
No, we're not going to say no,but for us, really, it's about
playing the long game.
We see it as a very, very usefulbrand building device,
particularly to a broader rangeof stakeholders.
(25:31):
You know, increasingly we'relearning in business-to-business
marketing, you've got your coredecision maker, but there's
loads of other people within thebusiness that, you know, also
can have a role in decisionmaking, maybe the legal team,
the market access team, aregulatory team, the HR team.
So podcasts are a great way ofreaching out to that broader
group of stakeholders within abusiness at some point when
(25:54):
they're looking at competitivepitches.
Now they're like, oh, DelTrimby, I know who they are.
Oh, they're the guys who didthis rather than like who the
hell are these people?
SPEAKER_01 (26:03):
I mean, I just love everything about that and the
reason why, for many reasons.
One is it's about having a nichepodcast.
That's what we try and tellpeople.
Podcasts are not Joe Rogan,they're not the Mel Robbins
podcast.
These are all backed by massivestudios, they reach thousands
and thousands of people.
They're not really selling muchper se apart from just generic
advertising.
I try and tell people if you getjust 50 people, even 10 people
(26:26):
that listen to your podcast, butthose are 10 decision makers,
those are 10 people in yourfield who will maybe use your
service one day.
That's way more important thanI've I've had a meeting before
with we want 5,000 views.
And I went, why?
And they went, because we justwant everyone and anyone to
watch it.
And I went, you do IT security,the only people who ever buy
(26:46):
your product are uh CTOs or CFOsor CEOs, like you'd be better
having 50 of them watch yourcontent than have 5,000.
Like, no, no, our KPI is 5,000or something like that.
SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
Which goes back to what I was saying earlier.
Do you mean it's yeah, what'syour strategy?
You know, what's the strategicintent of leech activity?
Podcasts they're they're they'rea technique, it's not a
strategy.
You know, what's your strategy?
Who do you want to reach?
What do you want to think?
What do you want to feel?
What how do you want them toact?
And then think about the role ofpodcasts within that.
SPEAKER_01 (27:17):
Or New, thank you very much for joining us on
Vietnam Content Marketing.
Been a pleasure.
(27:41):
This episode is hosted by me,Neil Mikkay, with production,
editing, and support from the 7Million Bikes Podcast team.
Thanks for listening.
Follow Vietnam Content Marketingwherever you get your podcasts,
and visit 7 million bikespodcast to learn more about the
team behind the show.
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