September 12, 2026 • 47 mins
Healthcare often waits for the crash, then celebrates the rescue. We wanted to explore the opposite: a model that treats prevention as the main job, not a side note. Dr Andrew Greenland sits down with Dr Russell Van Maele, a functional medicine physician and founder of Black Sheep Health, to unpack what he calls “longevity primary care” a proactive, data-driven, relationship-led approach designed to improve healthspan and daily quality of life.
Russell explains why most conventional primary care struggles to deliver real lifestyle medicine: it is not a knowledge problem, it is a time problem. When appointments are rushed and incentives are reactive, patients feel unheard and clinicians feel boxed in. We dig into how a premium, high-touch virtual clinic creates space for shared decision making, personalised goals, and ongoing coaching. We also talk about the buzz and the substance in longevity medicine, including GLP-1s, cardiometabolic risk, insulin resistance, and why no single biohack replaces fundamentals.
The conversation goes behind the scenes of telemedicine and medical entrepreneurship: HIPAA compliant systems, patient portals, EMRs, labs, pharmacy logistics, and the complexity of being licensed across all 50 US states. Russell is candid about the hype machine too, from influencers without credentials to the challenge of staying evidence-led when social media is loud. If you care about preventive healthcare, functional medicine, and the future of primary care, this is a practical look at what it really takes to make it work.
If this raised questions about your own care, subscribe, share the episode with a friend, and leave a review so more listeners can find it. What would you want your doctor to track with you over the next 12 months?
Guest Biography
Dr. Russell Van Maele is a functional medicine physician and founder of Black Sheep Health, where he practises what he describes as “longevity primary care”- combining proactive prevention, health optimisation and personalised primary care through a virtual model.
After completing his medical training around the emergence of widespread telemedicine during COVID, Russell transitioned into full-time virtual care. His approach emphasises healthspan, strong doctor-patient relationships, shared decision-making and understanding the individual goals and circumstances behind a patient's health.
Russell has built a telemedicine infrastructure capable of serving patients across all 50 US states and has firsthand experience navigating the clinical, technological, regulatory and entrepreneurial challenges involved in independent medical practice.
His longer-term mission includes growing Black Sheep Health around his faith and values while helping other physicians develop the confidence, infrastructure and independence to create practices of their own.
Contact Details
- Website: https://blacksheephealth.com
- Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/russell-van-maele-834511228/
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About the podcast
Voices in Health and Wellness features conversations at the intersection of medicine, lifestyle, and human potential, with clinicians, scientists, and thinkers shaping the future of care.
About Dr Andrew Greenland
UK-based medical doctor and founder of Greenland Medical, specialising in Integrative and Functional Medicine. Trained in both conventional and root-cause approaches, Andrew helps people optimise health, performance, and longevity, with a focus on cognitive resilience and healthy ageing.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:00):
So welcome back to Voices in Health and
Wellness, where I sit down withpractitioners, founders, and
innovators who are challengingthe way we think about
healthcare and have honestconversations about not only the
clinical side of what they do,but also the realities of
building and running a modernhealthcare business.
I'm your host, Dr.
Andrew Greenland, and today I'mjoined by Russell Van Maele, a
functional medicine physicianand founder of Black Sheep
(00:20):
Health.
Russell has built what hedescribes as a longevity primary
care model, a virtual practicecombining proactive data-driven
health optimization with theaccessibility and continuity of
primary care.
What makes the modelparticularly interesting is that
Black Sheep Health servicesservice patients across all 50
US states.
So behind the clinical work,there's also a fascinating story
(00:41):
around telemedicine,compliance, technology, and what
it takes to deliver highlypersonalized care at scale.
So with that, Russell, I'd loveto welcome you to the show and
thank you very much indeed forjoining me today.
Dr Russell Van Maele (00:51):
Dr.
Andrew, thank you for havingme.
It's great to be here.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:55):
So, Russell, for someone discovering
you and black sheep um healthfor the first time, can you tell
us a little bit about yourbackground?
What ultimately led you tobuild the practice that you've
been building?
Dr Russell Van Mael (01:05):
Absolutely.
Um so I'm a Christian, afollower of Jesus, I'm a husband
and I'm a father of two, athird one on the way.
So that is my hierarchy of mylife right now.
And um been blessed in thisspace to have the brain to go
(01:25):
through medical school and doall the things it took to get to
this point.
Um my start in this was reallyI was finishing up my residency
uh during COVID times.
So that was when everythingjust was in chaos and nobody
knew what healthcare was goingto be because the hospitals are
(01:46):
deserted.
We started seeing peopleonline, and that kind of
kickstarted this wholetelemedicine.
I know it's been going on foryears before that, but that was
really the kickstart of it.
And I took a I took my firstjob at um, it was kind of a a
risky contract, it wasn't one ofthose safe ones that uh it was
a direct primary care clinicthat was evolving into
(02:11):
telemedicine, and I was allabout you know, I'm a DO, so I
wanted to get my hands on peopleand be I'm very much an
in-person doctor, and uh then Igot all these licensing and I
didn't really know what to dowith it at that point, and
that's why I just thank God forthem because it's transitioned
my career completely, and I'vebeen full telehealth
(02:35):
telemedicine for the past goingon six years now, so it's uh
it's an unbelievable blessing.
I get to do the vast majorityof things I would have done in
the primary care clinic, butI've just kind of learned the
different avenues I have to gothrough to be able to prescribe
and use pharmacies, and I've gotmy own supplement line and you
(02:57):
know, sending people to getdiagnostics.
But at the end of the day,being a good doctor, and I think
I can still do that ontelehealth, telehealth,
telemedicine.
Um, I still have a goodhandshake, a good hug from
patients, but um it's just anunbelievable opportunity because
(03:18):
I get to work from home, I getto be with my wife and kids a
lot more than I would have if Iwould have been a doctor as a
hot hospitalist or in a clinic.
So it's an unbelievableblessing.
Dr Andrew Greenland (03:30):
Thank you.
Wonderful background andcontext.
So you I think you describewhat you do as longevity primary
care, if I remember correctly.
So, what does that actuallymean?
And how is it different fromthe way most people um
experience primary care?
Dr Russell Van Maele (03:41):
Yeah, so in my opinion, longevity is
health span.
It's living as many good yearsas possible.
It's not about the quantity,it's about the quality.
And I think that uh that's thebig theme in medicine right now
is is health span.
And everybody wants that, butyou gotta do the work to do to
(04:06):
get there.
And I think that you have tohave a great relationship with
your doctor to be able toachieve that because it takes a
lot of one-on-one time, care,everybody's a little bit
different in how they respond tocertain treatments or what
they're willing or not willingto do.
That all takes time, and thencomparing that to the primary
(04:29):
care model is the opposite oftime.
If I was doing the regularprimary care, in order for me to
make an honest living as aninternal medicine DO, I would
have to see 20 plus patients aday.
And if you're doing that on topof charting, on top of, you
(04:51):
know, not everybody's perfectlyon time to the appointments,
you're just at the end of theday not able to really listen to
your patients, and that'ssomething I really have uh the
luxury, which it really is aluxury of having the time to
really sit down, be calm, andnot feel like people are rushed,
(05:12):
but they actually can trust meas their doctor, and we can get
to their goals because that'sthe other thing.
It's like for me, I want to beable to run 10 miles when I'm 80
and have the be able to do 10pull-ups when I'm 80.
Most people you know eitherdon't want to do that or don't
(05:33):
even think that's possible, butthat's my goal.
You know, if your goal is justto live and watch Detroit Lions
games on Sunday afternoons, andthat's all you want to do, your
goals are gonna look a lotdifferent, and your path to get
there is gonna look a lotdifferent.
So that's why you got to havethe discernment of like, all
right, does this guy or womanneed medications or supplements,
(05:54):
or you know, do we need to getit more aggressive?
Do you need to push them?
Do you need a health coach withthis person?
Do you not need a health coach?
So there's a lot of differentthings that you can do in this
space, which is wonderful.
There's so many differentopportunities.
And I just never would have hadthat in the primary care space
because I'd have to check offthe boxes for, you know, did I
(06:18):
do all the insurance uhsatisfying criteria to make sure
this visit is legitimate, asopposed to the old school doctor
ways of just sitting there andlistening to your patient and
being a healer?
That's what I try to aspire tobe.
Dr Andrew Greenland (06:39):
Thank you.
So it's quite a shift from youknow conventional thinking.
Was there a particularexperience in medicine that made
you realize you wanted to dosomething a bit differently?
Dr Russell Van Maele (06:49):
Hmm, that's a good question.
I think that I've always been arelationship guy.
I always uh I always want toask people like, what's your
purpose?
It's something that I've alwayslike try to think of on my own,
and like what really drives youto be a better person.
So I'm always trying to likeget deeper relationships with
(07:11):
people, and that's somethingthat I I wasn't able to do in
the primary care setting.
That's part of it.
There's a lot of differentreasons I can answer this
question.
Um, and the the other thing,too, that where I want to be
different, and that's kind ofwhere I came up with Black Sheep
Health a little bit, but I wantto be different in that the
(07:31):
biggest thing, and I startedwith this.
My my relationship with Jesus,like this is my little you know,
camo Bible that I bring in mydeer stand when I go hunting.
Thank you to my lovely wife.
But why are we not talkingabout that more often in our
(07:53):
consults and in our rooms whereyou have somebody that's
extremely vulnerable to the tojust everything going on?
That's that's the the routethat I want to take.
I want to get deep and reallyfind out their their life, their
trauma, what is holding themback from getting to their
(08:14):
goals.
And I think the most importantthing in my life is my
relationship with God.
And if you don't, if you bypassthat, I think you're missing
one of the most foundationalaspects of health that in
conventional medicine they theyreally kind of push you away
from a religion or spirituality.
They're like, oh yeah, mind,body, spirit, and that's the
(08:36):
whole deo holistic mentality,mind, body, spirit.
But I don't think we'reactually doing that.
But then we go home and we talkto our families and pastors
about these things, but we can'ttalk to our doctors about it
who are in charge of our health,which for me, if my spiritual
health isn't solid, myentrepreneur skills and and my
(09:01):
drive just drops.
I'm not as good to my kids, I'mnot as good to my wife, and I'm
just not a good friend or son.
So that's where I just want tobe different in that setting and
bringing bringing that peaceinto health.
Dr Andrew Greenland (09:15):
Thank you.
So when you first started BlackSheep and Health, what did you
imagine your role was going tolook like?
And how is how different is thereality today?
Dr Russell Van Maele (09:24):
Yeah, so when I first started Black Sheep
Health, you know, from anentrepreneur lens, like this is
totally new for me.
I've been a part of thesetelehealth companies.
I've been a part of several andhelp build them and all of the
you know medical side of things.
But then when you build yourown practice, you go, wow,
(09:47):
people don't just show up onyour schedule.
I gotta, you know, put themphysically on my schedule and
send them the links and theemails and you know, make sure
there's retention, and there'sjust so many other things that
go into a business when you'rerunning it yourself.
So I've I've hired on adminsand compliance officers and you
(10:11):
know, a little bit of operationsmanagement and health coaching.
So it it's uh it's humblingwhen you run your own business,
it's very humbling.
I was very used to seeing mypatients, good, check out, go
hang out with my kids, and nowI'm like, see my patients, make
sure they're good to go for thenext time I see them.
(10:32):
And also I hope they stay, Ihope they found value because
you almost take it personallywhen uh you know, anything, a
bad outcome, or they they leave,you're like asking yourself,
like, why did why did theyleave?
What is something I did?
So the whole entrepreneurshipuh aspect of uh a doctor running
(10:53):
their own practice is isextremely humbling but and
challenging, but that's whatI've I've always wanted to do.
Another challenge.
So I get I don't want to say Iget bored really easily, but I I
definitely get I definitelyhave some ADD component.
Dr Andrew Greenland (11:09):
I think all entrepreneurs probably do
somewhere along the line.
Yeah.
So who is the typical personthat comes to black sheep health
and what are they looking forthat they haven't been able to
find elsewhere?
Dr Russell Van Maele (11:19):
Sure.
Well, I think it's somebodythat's um want wanting something
different that from thehealthcare industry than they're
getting right now.
Most people are prettyfrustrated with the the current
healthcare system, whether thatbe they're not getting the
results they want or they're notfeeling heard by their by their
doctor.
So I think it's the persongenerally falling between the
(11:43):
ages of 35 and 65, is probablymy client avatar that wants more
out of their healthcare, wantsaccess to me and direct access
to me anytime, which is what Ioffer to my clients.
And they want to know thelatest and greatest of what is
(12:05):
the best way to take care ofyourself.
And, you know, punchline, thereis no best way to take care of
yourself.
That's not one thing that youcan do, there's not one biohack
that you could do, onesupplement that you can take,
one peptide you can take.
It's a combination ofeverything, and I think it's a
lot of shared decision makingthat needs to happen.
(12:25):
And it's nice to bounce ideasoff of your doctor that has that
experience and you feelcomfortable being vulnerable
with.
Dr Andrew Greenland (12:38):
Thank you.
So I guess there are somepatients that come to you with
more immediate concerns.
Yeah.
How do you how do you balancethat against you know what
you're trying to achieve for thebigger picture, you know,
whether prevention oroptimization longevity with
those patients that just wantsomething fixed?
Dr Russell Van Maele (12:54):
Yeah, I think you know, I have I have
calls with people before.
I take them on as a client tojust kind of see kind of where
they're where they're at, whatthey're looking for.
And if I'm not the right fit,I'm not the right fit, and I
don't take it personally on belike, hey, this is a great
option for you, or hey, youmight just you just get on a few
supplements and you're gonna befine.
I don't think there's much Ican do for you.
(13:16):
But I do have a combination, Iwould say, of it.
My clients are mixed.
You know, I've got some peoplethat don't have any medical
history, but they are maybeholding on to a little bit of
belly fat, or they just feellike they're drained, fatigued,
they don't feel themselves.
But every doctor that they'vegone to has said they're fine,
(13:37):
labs are normal, and they justwant something better, they know
that there's something betterout there.
That's I would call put thatinto the optimization category,
right?
And then you have the otherside.
For example, I have a clientthat had cancer a year ago, and
now he's dealing with a lot ofthe side effects from the
(14:01):
chemotherapy that he received,and we're trying to come up with
a plan to get him back to hisnormal.
That's step one, and thenoptimize.
But you can't optimize once theif the foundation is still
shaky or if there's a lot ofissues you're dealing with.
So that's the type of personthat I'm much more hands-on
(14:21):
early, and then we can kind ofspace out our calls a little bit
better as things get better.
But um most of the time forclients like that that are
coming in for a specificconcern, it's a lot more
front-end work to get themsquared away, and then you
optimize.
Dr Andrew Greenland (14:39):
Thank you.
So, I mean, you're really doingproactive healthcare as as I
see it.
And I'm just wondering whatthat actually looks like to
patients that are not familiarwith the model on the ground.
What does it look like to themto have a you know a truly
proactive approach?
Dr Russell Van Maele (14:53):
Yeah, well, I think a proactive
approach, you'll know what theother side looks like.
What are the biggest thingsthat say if I wasn't doing
proactive medicine, I'm doingreactive medicine as a primary
care physician?
Here's the things that I'mseeing hypertension,
pre-diabetes or diabetes, uh,sleep apnea, high cholesterol.
(15:17):
Let's just start there.
That's the vast majority,right?
When you're doing prevention,you're trying to reverse all
those things because a lot oftimes those are lifestyle
diseases.
For my client that got cancer ayear ago that was a CrossFit
athlete, he that he got dealt abad card.
(15:37):
Okay, but the vast majority ofus are doing this to ourselves,
and we need to reverse that, andwe need not we do not need to
wait until it hits the fan to dosomething about it because that
is Western medicine into a T.
(15:57):
It's reactive, it's like, well,I can't really do anything for
you right now, but if you had aheart attack, I could throw a
stent in there, and I'm pickingon the interventional
cardiologist, but that's justthe you know classic case, you
you know, plaque buildup andinsulin resistance, these have
been happening for years andyears and years and years, and
now you're just seeing the finalendpoint.
(16:18):
So let's go back to thebeginning and fix you and
reverse this so that you don'tend up that way.
And I think it it's it's onceagain, it's sheer decision
making, it's not this black andwhite approach.
Every everybody wants to thinkit's so black and white.
Oh, take a statin, don't take astatin.
(16:39):
It's like the most obviousdecision ever.
It's like you're talking to areal person that has to like
literally take a pill every dayfor the rest of their life.
You better be confident thatthat is the right call for that
person.
You know, we can look at allthe data, but at the end of the
day, what is somebody willing todo?
(16:59):
And if they're not willing todo it, you gotta come up with a
better option that you're stilltaking care of that person the
best that you can.
Dr Andrew Greenland (17:09):
Thank you.
So I want to talk about theword longevity because it's
become a bit of a buzzword now.
It's gone from something beingrelatively niche to something we
hear about almost all the time.
Right.
What are the shifts you'reseeing in longevity medicine,
functional medicine, and primarycare right now from your
perspective?
Dr Russell Van Maele (17:25):
Yeah, I think you know, longevity
medicine really comes down tobiochemistry and physiology and
optimizing those keyfoundational aspects.
Um so having a firm knowledgeof those two topics is key and
in pathophysiology, right?
(17:45):
What happens when things gobad?
I think the biggest thing thatthe most uh the most people
realize right now is the GLPones in the uh longevity space.
Longevity, you're right.
It is a total buzzword, and Ialmost feel like I got to put
that on that because that's akey word that people are gonna
be searching anyway, right?
(18:06):
But it's really about livingyour best life and and removing
the things that are gonna beanti- longevity.
And you know, heart disease isone of the top things up there,
and I think one of the bestthings that we can do from a
heart disease standpoint when itcomes to plaque, when it comes
to insulin resistance, when itcomes to obesity, when it comes
(18:29):
to sleep apnea, these GOPs, it'shard to argue with the
biochemical effects, thebiomarker effects, and quality
of life improvement that we'reseeing with these.
And now they are not a perfectdrug or peptide, whatever you
want to call them, right?
It is not perfect because mostpeople are abusing them, they're
(18:52):
hitting their plateaus, they'renot changing anything in their
life.
So I try to coach peoplethrough the best way to take
those, but by far, that's thethe biggest um thing that I'm
seeing that's moving the needletowards healthier outcomes and
what truly is longevity.
Dr Andrew Greenland (19:11):
And the patients themselves becoming
more sophisticated aboutlongevity and prevention, or is
there still a massive educationgap from the patients that
you're seeing?
Dr Russell Van Maele (19:19):
I I like to think that I see a pretty
highly affluent uh patient, avery smart, um, knowledgeable
patient.
But that being said, you know,we always we joked about this in
medical school, you know, whichfor me was back in 2017, I
graduated uh medical school.
(19:40):
We joked about it like Dr.
Google, oh my patient asked Dr.
Google, right?
And the technology of AI comingup with medical answers and and
differential diagnoses isincredible.
Every doctor is using it, everyPA, every NPA.
We're all using these AIplatforms to help with our
(20:03):
clinical decision making.
It shouldn't be the only thingthat we do, otherwise robots
could could do our job.
But these patients areextremely informed.
And the same things you had todo when Dr.
Google was a problem 10 yearsago are the same things we got
to do now.
It's like most of the time it'sa lot of fear.
(20:24):
Oh, I got this, you know, I hadthe chest pain, which is from
uh I had a somebody had anxietyand it lists off I could be
having a heart attack, I shouldbe having a stroke, I could be
having this, this, this, this,this.
And you still need to gothrough that same process.
But um it's uh the thediagnostics are getting better,
(20:47):
the AI is getting better.
So people are they're much moreuh armed, if you will, when
they come to my desk of the infothat they have from, like I
said, from diagnostics toprevious biomarkers from
function or wherever else theywere at, and now to the markers
that I'm uh ordering myself.
(21:07):
But it honestly, I I love itbecause it makes for a healthier
conversation and you can almosttalk shop with somebody, you
know.
Before, and I I hate to pick ontruck drivers, but it was it's
always it's they're stereotypedas you're are you're talking to
a doctor when you're if you havea if you're I'm a doctor, I'm
talking to a patient and I'mtalking to another doctor, it's
(21:29):
a much different conversationthan if I'm a doctor talking to
somebody that knows nothing inthis space.
But now that person, thatstereotypical person that knew
nothing in this space knows alot more, and you gotta be you
gotta be on your A game, really,at the end of the day.
Dr Andrew Greenland (21:46):
And how do you personally sift through the
hype in this space?
You the genuinely usefulmedicine from the hype?
Dr Russell Van Maele (21:54):
It's a current struggle that I have,
I'll be honest.
Because there's so much hypeand You know, there's so many,
you know, I'm a 36-year-old guy,right?
There's a lot of gym bros outthere that say they're a doctor
on Instagram, and you lookactually at their credentials,
it's like, dude, I almost it's atotal pride thing, right?
(22:16):
It's it's a it's a it's man, II went through years and years
and years of school and debt andliving at my parents' house and
studying every weekend for mytest that I had to take on a
Monday morning, like I had toshut my life down for years, and
I'm still in debt at thispoint.
And now this person just jumpedon and claimed they're a
(22:38):
doctor, and you should do this.
Your doctor tells you to dothis, and I'm like, U S O B,
like you're not in the right,like you you can't you can't say
that, but I I can't we can'tstop it.
So at the end of the day, wejust need to be better.
We need to take on the thecases that aren't for the
masses, you know, the normalcomplicated ones.
(23:00):
We need to we just need to dobetter as a as a whole, and
really I think at the end of theday, you know, why I became a
do in the first place is liketruly to have great
relationships with my clients,and there is so much information
and noise, especially if youget on social media and
(23:25):
everybody and their mother willhave the protocol or the thing,
and it's it's quite honestly,it's just most of the time it's
noise, and you gotta really tellpeople it's like hey, that
that's legit.
The the the Jim Bro telling youto exercise, that yeah, you
should probably do that, okay.
(23:46):
But the the Jim Bro that'stelling you to hang upside down
and do a coffee enema five daysa week, and that's the only way
you can get healthy, it's likethat one might not might not be
it.
So yeah, it's it's somethingthat I you know I I have to deal
with on a daily basis from uhfrom a professional side and
(24:06):
then from my own from my own umknowledge base, right?
I'm on social.
If I see something, I need tosay, like, is that legitimate or
not?
Should I be implementing thisinto my practice too, or not?
So it's a lot of um it's it'sdifficult.
(24:27):
It's difficult.
It takes a lot of brain powerfor sure.
Dr Andrew Greenland (24:32):
Really interesting on that point.
I recently did a blog and Ilooked at um I got some
interesting data.
77% of health influencersonline have no credentials.
And these people are commandinghuge audiences, and you know
they are influencing with nocredentials.
And uh I think that's a reallyworrying statistic.
Dr Russell Van Maele (24:49):
It's wild.
And some of it, like you can'targue with some of it.
It's like, hey, this is a greatkettlebell complex, and this is
gonna help you put on muscle.
It's like, well, yeah, if youlift a 50-pound weight and you
lift it over your head a hundredtimes a day, you're probably
gonna get bigger shoulders,right?
So a lot of it is real, butman, it just seems like
(25:10):
everybody is impersonatingdoctors.
You know, there's even somelike everybody's like a PhD.
I don't want to go on a soapboxof like, woe is me, I have a
wonderful life and I'm veryblessed.
But even like like the PhDs andeverybody's everybody's a
doctor.
Everybody's a doctor.
I mean, and it gets it getsmore likes, it gets more follows
(25:31):
when you have legitimatemedical advice from a doctor and
you look into them, and they'rea PhD of like nothing, or
something completely opposite ofmedicine, or even like a
mid-level that got a PhD and nowthey call themselves a doctor.
I just it's frustrating.
It's just it, but at the end ofthe day, it's there.
(25:53):
I'm not gonna change it.
I'm not gonna get on the boardsof you know, the DO boards and
you know, scream from therooftops that this shouldn't be
happening.
I just have to separate myselfand be better, and that's kind
of the black sheep healthmentality.
Like just be a little differentand don't be ashamed of it.
Dr Andrew Greenland (26:14):
Totally agree.
So I think one of theinteresting things about your
model is it's deliberatelypremium and high touch.
So, what do you have to deliverconsistently for your patients
to continue seeing real value inthat relationship?
Dr Russell Van Maele (26:27):
Yeah, I really, you know, we want to say
results, right?
That's like the answer that youwant to say.
Like every single one of myclients that comes in is, you
know, did they didn't have a sixpack and now they do, right?
Or their their serious proteinwas two when they got in here
and now it's at the 0.5, right?
(26:48):
Those are great achievableobjective goals.
And don't get me wrong, that'sexactly what I'm trying to do
with most of my clients lowertheir visceral fat, lower their
body fat, improve prove theirinsulin resistance, get them off
of medications.
That's one of my biggest winsever.
If it, you know, I have one ofmy clients and she was on so
(27:09):
many different antipsychotics,antidepressants, uh,
anxiolytics.
And I asked her why.
I was like, Oh, there was apoint in my life where I was you
know depressed.
I'm like, Well, are you now?
She's like, No.
Well, let's see if we can comeoff of these in a med, like a
medically assisted way that'sjust not gonna make you go
(27:29):
through withdrawals, but we'reactually gonna get you off of
these as safely, and now she'son not on any medication.
So, like, that's that's athat's a win.
And uh to me, that's a veryobjective win.
But the real answer is why doesanybody stay with their doctor
for five, 10, 20, 30 years?
(27:52):
It's because they have a greatrelationship with that doctor,
they trust their opinions andthey truly believe that they are
getting healthier, bothsubjective and objective, while
they're under that doctor'scare.
Dr Andrew Greenland (28:09):
And what are some of the less obvious
challenges in involved in kindof delivering that level of
service that patients probablynever see?
Dr Russell Van Maele (28:18):
Less obvious challenges.
I think the I think the thething that I think about mostly
is I'm asking somebody to do alot on their own.
When my worth is determined byyour discipline, that makes for
(28:42):
um it I can look bad reallyeasily if I ask you to do, if I
give you all the protocols andgive you a coach that works with
you once a week, and and then Ishow up to your house
unannounced, and I'm like, hey,you're not, you haven't done
anything I asked you to do.
You're not working with thecoach I signed you up with, and
(29:03):
they're they're coming back tome on a quarterly basis or
monthly basis, like, hey, I'mnot achieving my goals.
Well, you're not doing what Iasked you to do.
So there's a huge component ofthis that is very much you have
to have a self-motivatedpatient, and that's honestly
something that when I'm when I'mtalking to people on my
(29:24):
discovery calls, when I firstmeet them, I'm like, hey, are
you motivated to make a change?
And who are you doing this for?
Are you doing it for yourself?
Are you doing it for somebodyelse?
Because that you gotta we gottareally assess kind of where
you're at because I think that'sthe biggest pain point in
primary care is hey, uh, youhave uh hyper hypertension, we
(29:45):
gotta treat it.
Well, you can diet andexercise, or I'm gonna give you
this pill.
And I know you're not gonna diein exercise, so I'm just gonna
give you the pill.
Okay, I don't want to take thatapproach, but I will if I if I
have to, but I don't want to.
So, as opposed to a surgeon,you know, I've got a lot of
(30:07):
friends and family that aresurgeons, people show up, clip
snip, or whatever that you know,it's obviously much more than
that, but they're in and out,and yeah, they have to deal with
follow-up, but for the majormajority of the part, they they
are not, they are in control.
That person is under anesthesiaand they're doing what they
(30:27):
have to do, and the person goeson their way.
For me, I have to work withthat person, then I have to let
them go out into the wild and dothe things that I we talked
about.
So I think that's the mostunderrated aspect of this whole
longevity space is man, yougotta do your own homework and
you gotta do what your doctorsays before you're trying to get
(30:51):
the results that you knowyou're promised, or don't make
those promises.
Dr Andrew Greenland (30:58):
And with this model, is there anything
behind the scenes that takessignificantly more time energy
time or energy than you think itshould do in kind of
maintaining this level ofservice delivery?
Dr Russell Van Maele (31:09):
Yeah, I think the whole admin aspect,
right?
There's so many things that youknow, you're talking to
basically I'm like a mom andpop, you know, clinic here.
I'm a one-man band, and peoplewant to see me and they trust
me, but I gotta do a lot ofhiring of you know, tech, of
(31:29):
marketing, of advertising.
I gotta run a it's a businessas well, and that takes just so
much more time and thoughtprocess than um I ever would
have imagined.
And uh I'm trying to hire outthose people, and I've done a
pretty good job so far, butthere's always the next step in
(31:51):
in growing your business.
You know, when you have 10patient problems are different
than a hundred patient problems,which are different than a
thousand patient problems.
I don't think I'm ever gonnaget to a hundred, a thousand, I
don't want to.
Um, but uh scaling and growingis uh it's underestimated how
(32:12):
how difficult it is.
And and everybody expects thisword of mouth, like, oh, you're
just such a good doctor,everybody's talking about you.
Reality check, uh, you gottado, you gotta get on social, you
gotta do all these things togrow your clients.
Dr Andrew Greenland (32:30):
And then there's another layer to this,
which I think is reallyfascinating.
So you haven't restricted thisto a particular geographical
location.
You're licensed across all 50states, if I remember correctly.
Dr Russell Van Maele (32:39):
Yes.
Dr Andrew Greenland (32:40):
What made you decide to build nationally
rather than focus on onegeographical target?
Dr Russell Van Maele (32:46):
Well, just simply uh if you're gonna you
know fish in in a pond, it's youknow, you're gonna catch bigger
fish when you're fishing in theocean as opposed to a little
puddle, right?
If I have I've been blessedwith the you know ability to
have all these licensing uhlicenses and maintain maintain
them over the years, that myoutreach is just gonna be
(33:09):
significantly more.
And I never have to turnanybody down.
I could see somebody in Hawaii,I could see somebody in Maine.
It doesn't, it doesn't matter,and I don't I never want to push
anybody away if I don't haveto.
Dr Andrew Greenland (33:23):
You clearly sussed out the tech for making
this um telemedicine approachwork.
Yeah.
But are there any kind of bigoperational lessons that you've
learned along the way fordelivering this level of um
personalized medicine through acompletely virtual model?
Dr Russell Van Maele (33:37):
Yeah, I think you know, you just gotta
have your your bases set up ofall the things that it takes
from from you to have a clientas a cold, like cold lead come
in to results.
And that's a huge timetable ofyou know, let's call it a year.
When that person comes in, yougot to have a a marketing
(34:00):
platform, you got to have abackbone of what you do.
Um, I'm using Go High Levelright now as my backbone, and
then I'm involved in anotherventure uh called HealthAid,
which is gonna be an EMR plus aum white label telehealth uh
(34:22):
marketplace for for otherclinics to join.
So I'm gonna be able to usethat, but you got to have you
know where are you gonna put inyour patient data, you got to
make sure it's HIPAA compliant.
You know, what are you gonnause for Zoom or Google Meets?
How are you gonna actuallyphysically or uh you know
digitally communicate with thesepeople?
Then once you write the note,are you gonna use AI to write
(34:46):
your notes?
Are you gonna manually typethem all out?
You know, I work with a lot ofcool companies like Life Force
is a company that I work for.
Incredible user experience.
You I get on this patientportal and it's beautiful.
I've got all the information Iwould ever need, and in a
beautifully set up labs that aretracking from you know 2021, 22
(35:11):
when I started there, to now wegot all this data and it's
color-coded and it's coming upwith a scoring system to their
health, which I think is kind ofa little uh gamification
overblown.
But people love that and theylove the experience that they're
getting, not just with chattingwith me and having a
relationship with me, but alsoseeing their numbers and seeing
(35:34):
their improvement objectively ina nice way.
So you got to think about allthose other things that go into
it, and then just make sureyou're like a good human,
reaching out to the clients, youknow, texting them, emailing
them, um, checking in on theirbirthdays or a loss in the in
the family or a loved one.
So um it's it's it's there's alot more things.
(36:00):
And then you talk aboutpharmacies.
I mean, I could go on and on.
I've got my own, you know,supplement line that I
white-labeled my own supplementswith, which has been awesome.
But what pharmacies are yougonna partner with?
What happens when estradiolpatches you know go out of
stock?
You gotta you gotta pivot, youknow, and you gotta do all these
things, which is which isamazing.
(36:21):
And you just gotta have, um, atthe end of the day, like with
my marriage, you gotta havegreat communication with your
people and never leave themhanging.
Let them always know thatyou're there and you will come
up with a solution.
Dr Andrew Greenland (36:37):
And you clearly developed a very
comprehensive infrastructure forrunning this show.
Um, but is there anythingthat's kind of um you still lack
at and think, well, there mustbe a better way of doing this,
even despite all of thatinfrastructure?
Is there something that's stilltoo complex that you would love
to be able to solve?
Dr Russell Van Maele (36:52):
Yeah, I would love for the automation or
making like a cloud agent orsomething like that, where I
could literally have thisconversation, like we're having
this podcast right now and callit a medical interview.
And it took everything that wesaid, made a note for the
(37:13):
patient, sent them to theiremail or portal or whatever,
made a medical note, like a soapnote for me, made a supplement
schedule that the thatautomatically sent to the
patient, set them up for theirnext call, ordered the blood
work for you know 90 days fromnow.
(37:34):
If I could just leave the call,man, that's burnout is gone.
I think that's the the biggestthing of burnout is all the
other things.
I love talking with people.
That's my favorite part.
I could talk with a wall andmake friends with the wall,
right?
And I love talking, it'ssomething I truly enjoy.
I love getting to know somebodyand take care of them as a as a
(37:58):
as a doctor.
What I don't like, I don't likewriting notes, I don't like
admin, I don't like all theseother things that it takes to
run a run a business, sotherefore you hire them out.
But man, if we could automatethat to where everything just
happened, uh, I think therewould be a lot more doctors that
(38:21):
would be willing, especially inmy standpoint, family medicine,
uh pediatrics, or internalmedicine, a lot more primary
care doctors would be willing togo off on their own.
And that's kind of in the backof my mind, and when I when I'm
partnering with other companiesand when I'm you know taking
care of my own clients, is howdo I go through all the hoops
(38:43):
and and figure this out to whereI can take that next person
that just finished up theirresidency that is like, what am
I supposed to do?
I just signed up with thisgiant healthcare system that
they're just HR is just down mythroat every single day.
And I'm not, I this is not whatI signed up for.
That's the doctor that I wantto take, and I'm very biased at
(39:07):
doctors.
I am one I want to take care ofother doctors.
I want to take that doctor andbe like, hey, come with me, be
who you whoever you are, andfind your niche of people, and
you can make it work, and thisis how I think that's like my
end goal on a completelydifferent uh aspect of health,
(39:31):
of like giving it to the nextgeneration.
And I'm still very much in theI'm very early in my career, so
but that's but that's what Iwant to do.
Dr Andrew Greenland (39:43):
Thank you.
Um so you have a 50-statemodel, yes, and that gives you a
really um big total addressablemarket for what you're doing.
But is the complexity that hasto be there to make that work
offset the advantage of havingthat reach?
Dr Russell Van Maele (40:01):
Yeah, when the complexity comes in with
making sure you can maintainyour licensure.
So I use a company calledmedlicense.com.
I've used them for the last sixyears, they're wonderful.
I know the owners, um they'rethey're wonderful.
I can't say enough about them,but I highly recommend them.
(40:22):
And anybody that is wanting toget more licensing, which I
would highly advocate for ifyou're in a single state, you
need to get more statelicensures.
Just it's just increasing yourmarketability.
But um, they have kind of takenthat weight off my shoulders.
So, you know, hey Russ, it'stime to complete your CME.
(40:44):
Hey, Russ, you need to sign upfor this, or you know, please
sign that email coming in fromWest Virginia Medical Medical
Board.
That that's a huge burden thatI think people are uh scared of
because there's a definitely anupfront cost to that, and then
there's a cost to maintenance ofthose licensing and renewals.
(41:05):
But when you have the freedomof being your own doctor, that's
and you're running your ownbusiness.
Now that's just you know awrite-off, it it's it's a it's a
great spot to be in.
So that's that's something thatuh trying to remember what the
(41:26):
initial question was.
Oh, uh 50 state license.
So that that's that'sdefinitely an aspect of it.
Um, you know, where do where doyou market to?
I think running like meta adsor um you know getting your name
out there.
There, there's this complexityto that.
So I have my own uh podcastthat I'm starting up that I'm
(41:48):
gonna have um a local one herein Arkansas that's gonna help me
with with those ads and anddoing my socials and and
whatnot, because that's a thingthat some doctors love doing it
and some doctors hate it.
I'm in the hate category.
I do not I do not like gettingin front of a camera and being
like, oh, I love creatine.
This is why.
I just think that's just not mystyle.
(42:11):
Um but there's so manydifferent aspects of how how to
grow this business, and and the50 state licensure is just it it
expands your options.
And if I were to growsignificantly, like how I am
with like uh working with someof these other companies, you
have to develop an MSO PC model,which I have a lawyer that I've
(42:34):
been using for several yearsthat um has created that model
to make sure we are compliantfrom a uh legal practice of
medicine standpoint.
Dr Andrew Greenland (42:49):
I think when we spoke previously, which
is a little while ago now, youmentioned that attracting new
clients was one of the biggerchallenges at that time.
Have you learned anything aboutmarketing a premium product
like what you offer um from yourexperiences?
Dr Russell Van Maele (43:02):
Yes, you have to be you have to be very
confident in what you who youare and kind of how you present
yourself.
That's number one.
Number two, I've I you turnaway the people that uh are just
not gonna be a good fit.
So when people come in as alead through the website or or
(43:26):
hit you up on social and you'reyou're talking with them, you
got to really find out likewho's who's gonna be willing to
be able to pay the membershipand wanting to actually work
with you.
And um I think the biggestthing for me is like sales.
You I have to be become asalesperson, which I've never
felt comfortable with.
(43:47):
I think they kind of theydefinitely uh push that away in
in medical school and residency.
Like you don't need to sellanything because that's a
conflict of interest, but youare very much selling.
Yourself, you're selling therelationship that you're gonna
have with somebody that's gonnabe on the deepest level
(44:08):
possible.
So becoming a salesperson andalso not like if I charge a
thousand dollars a month, Igotta be able to confidently say
that and not be wishy-washy andmake sure that I'm getting the
right client that is willing topay that.
So I think sales has been asomething that I've personally
(44:32):
had to, you know, read books onand talk to my wife who who is
in medical sales uh before shebecame a stay-at-home mom.
So we we have a lot ofconversations about this, but
very underestimated is the salesaspect because people think you
just like you know hang ashingle and put a sign out in
front, and then people just showup, and man, is that ever so
(44:54):
far from the truth.
Dr Andrew Greenland (44:57):
And in closing, where where's the
future for you?
What do you like to do withback black sheep health?
And do you have any particularplans for the future?
Dr Russell Van Maele (45:04):
Yeah, so I want to continue growing this
brand.
I think I really want to getinto the niche of faith-based
men and women that are alsofathers and mothers that want to
(45:27):
take care of their children andraise the next generation of
Jesus Christ followers.
And I think that's my biggestmission from a black sheep
standpoint.
Um, that's my life right now.
I think there's a big gap inthat, and that we kind of want
these things, we don't know howto get there.
And if you don't have yourhealth, you everything kind of
(45:52):
goes out the door.
If you're sick, if you're inpain, you're not gonna be able
to achieve what you what youwant in life.
So I definitely want to growblack sheep to take great care
of people, eventually, probablyhire another like-minded doctor
that uh I can trust and that Itrust is gonna take great care
(46:13):
of my patients, and then goingback to the empowerment of
taking on other physicians,developing a platform that's
like, hey, this is the roadmapto getting your own black sheep,
and I'm gonna help you in thatbecause there's so many doctors
(46:35):
out there that are probablygonna hear this or you know, are
talking to the looking at thatinfluence of being like, hey,
how did they how do they do it,or how are they seeing all these
people?
And because at the end of theday, you get some of these
celebrity doctors that got onegood referral that just kind of
you know rippled effect to allthese people, and they're the
(46:58):
they're the best doctor, there'sthe celebrity doctor, but
they're not doing anythingdifferent than than I am, or
different than that new doctor.
They're doing the same stuff,but they were able to get their
name out there, and that's youjust need one good break.
So there's a lot of things thatgo into it, but um, I
(47:18):
definitely want to give thatconfidence to to young
physicians.
Dr Andrew Greenland (47:25):
Well, with that, I'd love to thank you so
much for joining me, and I wishyou all the best with that
mission.
Um, really enjoyed theconversation today.
And I think what's reallyinteresting about what you're
building is it brings togethertwo things that healthcare often
separates the ability to dealwith something that needs to
happen today, whilst alsothinking much further ahead
about prevention andoptimization longevity.
And I really appreciate youbeing so honest and open about
(47:45):
the realities of building thebusiness and the model that you
have, because I think that sideof healthcare gets talked about
far less than it should.
So I'm very grateful, Ross.
It's been an absolute pleasureto have you on the show.
Thank you so much.
Dr Russell Van Maele (47:57):
Thank you, Dr.
Greenland.
Great meeting you.
So welcome back to Voices in Health and
Wellness, where I sit down withpractitioners, founders, and
innovators who are challengingthe way we think about
healthcare and have honestconversations about not only the
clinical side of what they do,but also the realities of
building and running a modernhealthcare business.
I'm your host, Dr.
Andrew Greenland, and today I'mjoined by Russell Van Maele, a
functional medicine physicianand founder of Black Sheep
(00:20):
Health.
Russell has built what hedescribes as a longevity primary
care model, a virtual practicecombining proactive data-driven
health optimization with theaccessibility and continuity of
primary care.
What makes the modelparticularly interesting is that
Black Sheep Health servicesservice patients across all 50
US states.
So behind the clinical work,there's also a fascinating story
(00:41):
around telemedicine,compliance, technology, and what
it takes to deliver highlypersonalized care at scale.
So with that, Russell, I'd loveto welcome you to the show and
thank you very much indeed forjoining me today.
Dr Russell Van Maele (00:51):
Dr.
Andrew, thank you for havingme.
It's great to be here.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:55):
So, Russell, for someone discovering
you and black sheep um healthfor the first time, can you tell
us a little bit about yourbackground?
What ultimately led you tobuild the practice that you've
been building?
Dr Russell Van Mael (01:05):
Absolutely.
Um so I'm a Christian, afollower of Jesus, I'm a husband
and I'm a father of two, athird one on the way.
So that is my hierarchy of mylife right now.
And um been blessed in thisspace to have the brain to go
(01:25):
through medical school and doall the things it took to get to
this point.
Um my start in this was reallyI was finishing up my residency
uh during COVID times.
So that was when everythingjust was in chaos and nobody
knew what healthcare was goingto be because the hospitals are
(01:46):
deserted.
We started seeing peopleonline, and that kind of
kickstarted this wholetelemedicine.
I know it's been going on foryears before that, but that was
really the kickstart of it.
And I took a I took my firstjob at um, it was kind of a a
risky contract, it wasn't one ofthose safe ones that uh it was
a direct primary care clinicthat was evolving into
(02:11):
telemedicine, and I was allabout you know, I'm a DO, so I
wanted to get my hands on peopleand be I'm very much an
in-person doctor, and uh then Igot all these licensing and I
didn't really know what to dowith it at that point, and
that's why I just thank God forthem because it's transitioned
my career completely, and I'vebeen full telehealth
(02:35):
telemedicine for the past goingon six years now, so it's uh
it's an unbelievable blessing.
I get to do the vast majorityof things I would have done in
the primary care clinic, butI've just kind of learned the
different avenues I have to gothrough to be able to prescribe
and use pharmacies, and I've gotmy own supplement line and you
(02:57):
know, sending people to getdiagnostics.
But at the end of the day,being a good doctor, and I think
I can still do that ontelehealth, telehealth,
telemedicine.
Um, I still have a goodhandshake, a good hug from
patients, but um it's just anunbelievable opportunity because
(03:18):
I get to work from home, I getto be with my wife and kids a
lot more than I would have if Iwould have been a doctor as a
hot hospitalist or in a clinic.
So it's an unbelievableblessing.
Dr Andrew Greenland (03:30):
Thank you.
Wonderful background andcontext.
So you I think you describewhat you do as longevity primary
care, if I remember correctly.
So, what does that actuallymean?
And how is it different fromthe way most people um
experience primary care?
Dr Russell Van Maele (03:41):
Yeah, so in my opinion, longevity is
health span.
It's living as many good yearsas possible.
It's not about the quantity,it's about the quality.
And I think that uh that's thebig theme in medicine right now
is is health span.
And everybody wants that, butyou gotta do the work to do to
(04:06):
get there.
And I think that you have tohave a great relationship with
your doctor to be able toachieve that because it takes a
lot of one-on-one time, care,everybody's a little bit
different in how they respond tocertain treatments or what
they're willing or not willingto do.
That all takes time, and thencomparing that to the primary
(04:29):
care model is the opposite oftime.
If I was doing the regularprimary care, in order for me to
make an honest living as aninternal medicine DO, I would
have to see 20 plus patients aday.
And if you're doing that on topof charting, on top of, you
(04:51):
know, not everybody's perfectlyon time to the appointments,
you're just at the end of theday not able to really listen to
your patients, and that'ssomething I really have uh the
luxury, which it really is aluxury of having the time to
really sit down, be calm, andnot feel like people are rushed,
(05:12):
but they actually can trust meas their doctor, and we can get
to their goals because that'sthe other thing.
It's like for me, I want to beable to run 10 miles when I'm 80
and have the be able to do 10pull-ups when I'm 80.
Most people you know eitherdon't want to do that or don't
(05:33):
even think that's possible, butthat's my goal.
You know, if your goal is justto live and watch Detroit Lions
games on Sunday afternoons, andthat's all you want to do, your
goals are gonna look a lotdifferent, and your path to get
there is gonna look a lotdifferent.
So that's why you got to havethe discernment of like, all
right, does this guy or womanneed medications or supplements,
(05:54):
or you know, do we need to getit more aggressive?
Do you need to push them?
Do you need a health coach withthis person?
Do you not need a health coach?
So there's a lot of differentthings that you can do in this
space, which is wonderful.
There's so many differentopportunities.
And I just never would have hadthat in the primary care space
because I'd have to check offthe boxes for, you know, did I
(06:18):
do all the insurance uhsatisfying criteria to make sure
this visit is legitimate, asopposed to the old school doctor
ways of just sitting there andlistening to your patient and
being a healer?
That's what I try to aspire tobe.
Dr Andrew Greenland (06:39):
Thank you.
So it's quite a shift from youknow conventional thinking.
Was there a particularexperience in medicine that made
you realize you wanted to dosomething a bit differently?
Dr Russell Van Maele (06:49):
Hmm, that's a good question.
I think that I've always been arelationship guy.
I always uh I always want toask people like, what's your
purpose?
It's something that I've alwayslike try to think of on my own,
and like what really drives youto be a better person.
So I'm always trying to likeget deeper relationships with
(07:11):
people, and that's somethingthat I I wasn't able to do in
the primary care setting.
That's part of it.
There's a lot of differentreasons I can answer this
question.
Um, and the the other thing,too, that where I want to be
different, and that's kind ofwhere I came up with Black Sheep
Health a little bit, but I wantto be different in that the
(07:31):
biggest thing, and I startedwith this.
My my relationship with Jesus,like this is my little you know,
camo Bible that I bring in mydeer stand when I go hunting.
Thank you to my lovely wife.
But why are we not talkingabout that more often in our
(07:53):
consults and in our rooms whereyou have somebody that's
extremely vulnerable to the tojust everything going on?
That's that's the the routethat I want to take.
I want to get deep and reallyfind out their their life, their
trauma, what is holding themback from getting to their
(08:14):
goals.
And I think the most importantthing in my life is my
relationship with God.
And if you don't, if you bypassthat, I think you're missing
one of the most foundationalaspects of health that in
conventional medicine they theyreally kind of push you away
from a religion or spirituality.
They're like, oh yeah, mind,body, spirit, and that's the
(08:36):
whole deo holistic mentality,mind, body, spirit.
But I don't think we'reactually doing that.
But then we go home and we talkto our families and pastors
about these things, but we can'ttalk to our doctors about it
who are in charge of our health,which for me, if my spiritual
health isn't solid, myentrepreneur skills and and my
(09:01):
drive just drops.
I'm not as good to my kids, I'mnot as good to my wife, and I'm
just not a good friend or son.
So that's where I just want tobe different in that setting and
bringing bringing that peaceinto health.
Dr Andrew Greenland (09:15):
Thank you.
So when you first started BlackSheep and Health, what did you
imagine your role was going tolook like?
And how is how different is thereality today?
Dr Russell Van Maele (09:24):
Yeah, so when I first started Black Sheep
Health, you know, from anentrepreneur lens, like this is
totally new for me.
I've been a part of thesetelehealth companies.
I've been a part of several andhelp build them and all of the
you know medical side of things.
But then when you build yourown practice, you go, wow,
(09:47):
people don't just show up onyour schedule.
I gotta, you know, put themphysically on my schedule and
send them the links and theemails and you know, make sure
there's retention, and there'sjust so many other things that
go into a business when you'rerunning it yourself.
So I've I've hired on adminsand compliance officers and you
(10:11):
know, a little bit of operationsmanagement and health coaching.
So it it's uh it's humblingwhen you run your own business,
it's very humbling.
I was very used to seeing mypatients, good, check out, go
hang out with my kids, and nowI'm like, see my patients, make
sure they're good to go for thenext time I see them.
(10:32):
And also I hope they stay, Ihope they found value because
you almost take it personallywhen uh you know, anything, a
bad outcome, or they they leave,you're like asking yourself,
like, why did why did theyleave?
What is something I did?
So the whole entrepreneurshipuh aspect of uh a doctor running
(10:53):
their own practice is isextremely humbling but and
challenging, but that's whatI've I've always wanted to do.
Another challenge.
So I get I don't want to say Iget bored really easily, but I I
definitely get I definitelyhave some ADD component.
Dr Andrew Greenland (11:09):
I think all entrepreneurs probably do
somewhere along the line.
Yeah.
So who is the typical personthat comes to black sheep health
and what are they looking forthat they haven't been able to
find elsewhere?
Dr Russell Van Maele (11:19):
Sure.
Well, I think it's somebodythat's um want wanting something
different that from thehealthcare industry than they're
getting right now.
Most people are prettyfrustrated with the the current
healthcare system, whether thatbe they're not getting the
results they want or they're notfeeling heard by their by their
doctor.
So I think it's the persongenerally falling between the
(11:43):
ages of 35 and 65, is probablymy client avatar that wants more
out of their healthcare, wantsaccess to me and direct access
to me anytime, which is what Ioffer to my clients.
And they want to know thelatest and greatest of what is
(12:05):
the best way to take care ofyourself.
And, you know, punchline, thereis no best way to take care of
yourself.
That's not one thing that youcan do, there's not one biohack
that you could do, onesupplement that you can take,
one peptide you can take.
It's a combination ofeverything, and I think it's a
lot of shared decision makingthat needs to happen.
(12:25):
And it's nice to bounce ideasoff of your doctor that has that
experience and you feelcomfortable being vulnerable
with.
Dr Andrew Greenland (12:38):
Thank you.
So I guess there are somepatients that come to you with
more immediate concerns.
Yeah.
How do you how do you balancethat against you know what
you're trying to achieve for thebigger picture, you know,
whether prevention oroptimization longevity with
those patients that just wantsomething fixed?
Dr Russell Van Maele (12:54):
Yeah, I think you know, I have I have
calls with people before.
I take them on as a client tojust kind of see kind of where
they're where they're at, whatthey're looking for.
And if I'm not the right fit,I'm not the right fit, and I
don't take it personally on belike, hey, this is a great
option for you, or hey, youmight just you just get on a few
supplements and you're gonna befine.
I don't think there's much Ican do for you.
(13:16):
But I do have a combination, Iwould say, of it.
My clients are mixed.
You know, I've got some peoplethat don't have any medical
history, but they are maybeholding on to a little bit of
belly fat, or they just feellike they're drained, fatigued,
they don't feel themselves.
But every doctor that they'vegone to has said they're fine,
(13:37):
labs are normal, and they justwant something better, they know
that there's something betterout there.
That's I would call put thatinto the optimization category,
right?
And then you have the otherside.
For example, I have a clientthat had cancer a year ago, and
now he's dealing with a lot ofthe side effects from the
(14:01):
chemotherapy that he received,and we're trying to come up with
a plan to get him back to hisnormal.
That's step one, and thenoptimize.
But you can't optimize once theif the foundation is still
shaky or if there's a lot ofissues you're dealing with.
So that's the type of personthat I'm much more hands-on
(14:21):
early, and then we can kind ofspace out our calls a little bit
better as things get better.
But um most of the time forclients like that that are
coming in for a specificconcern, it's a lot more
front-end work to get themsquared away, and then you
optimize.
Dr Andrew Greenland (14:39):
Thank you.
So, I mean, you're really doingproactive healthcare as as I
see it.
And I'm just wondering whatthat actually looks like to
patients that are not familiarwith the model on the ground.
What does it look like to themto have a you know a truly
proactive approach?
Dr Russell Van Maele (14:53):
Yeah, well, I think a proactive
approach, you'll know what theother side looks like.
What are the biggest thingsthat say if I wasn't doing
proactive medicine, I'm doingreactive medicine as a primary
care physician?
Here's the things that I'mseeing hypertension,
pre-diabetes or diabetes, uh,sleep apnea, high cholesterol.
(15:17):
Let's just start there.
That's the vast majority,right?
When you're doing prevention,you're trying to reverse all
those things because a lot oftimes those are lifestyle
diseases.
For my client that got cancer ayear ago that was a CrossFit
athlete, he that he got dealt abad card.
(15:37):
Okay, but the vast majority ofus are doing this to ourselves,
and we need to reverse that, andwe need not we do not need to
wait until it hits the fan to dosomething about it because that
is Western medicine into a T.
(15:57):
It's reactive, it's like, well,I can't really do anything for
you right now, but if you had aheart attack, I could throw a
stent in there, and I'm pickingon the interventional
cardiologist, but that's justthe you know classic case, you
you know, plaque buildup andinsulin resistance, these have
been happening for years andyears and years and years, and
now you're just seeing the finalendpoint.
(16:18):
So let's go back to thebeginning and fix you and
reverse this so that you don'tend up that way.
And I think it it's it's onceagain, it's sheer decision
making, it's not this black andwhite approach.
Every everybody wants to thinkit's so black and white.
Oh, take a statin, don't take astatin.
(16:39):
It's like the most obviousdecision ever.
It's like you're talking to areal person that has to like
literally take a pill every dayfor the rest of their life.
You better be confident thatthat is the right call for that
person.
You know, we can look at allthe data, but at the end of the
day, what is somebody willing todo?
(16:59):
And if they're not willing todo it, you gotta come up with a
better option that you're stilltaking care of that person the
best that you can.
Dr Andrew Greenland (17:09):
Thank you.
So I want to talk about theword longevity because it's
become a bit of a buzzword now.
It's gone from something beingrelatively niche to something we
hear about almost all the time.
Right.
What are the shifts you'reseeing in longevity medicine,
functional medicine, and primarycare right now from your
perspective?
Dr Russell Van Maele (17:25):
Yeah, I think you know, longevity
medicine really comes down tobiochemistry and physiology and
optimizing those keyfoundational aspects.
Um so having a firm knowledgeof those two topics is key and
in pathophysiology, right?
(17:45):
What happens when things gobad?
I think the biggest thing thatthe most uh the most people
realize right now is the GLPones in the uh longevity space.
Longevity, you're right.
It is a total buzzword, and Ialmost feel like I got to put
that on that because that's akey word that people are gonna
be searching anyway, right?
(18:06):
But it's really about livingyour best life and and removing
the things that are gonna beanti- longevity.
And you know, heart disease isone of the top things up there,
and I think one of the bestthings that we can do from a
heart disease standpoint when itcomes to plaque, when it comes
to insulin resistance, when itcomes to obesity, when it comes
(18:29):
to sleep apnea, these GOPs, it'shard to argue with the
biochemical effects, thebiomarker effects, and quality
of life improvement that we'reseeing with these.
And now they are not a perfectdrug or peptide, whatever you
want to call them, right?
It is not perfect because mostpeople are abusing them, they're
(18:52):
hitting their plateaus, they'renot changing anything in their
life.
So I try to coach peoplethrough the best way to take
those, but by far, that's thethe biggest um thing that I'm
seeing that's moving the needletowards healthier outcomes and
what truly is longevity.
Dr Andrew Greenland (19:11):
And the patients themselves becoming
more sophisticated aboutlongevity and prevention, or is
there still a massive educationgap from the patients that
you're seeing?
Dr Russell Van Maele (19:19):
I I like to think that I see a pretty
highly affluent uh patient, avery smart, um, knowledgeable
patient.
But that being said, you know,we always we joked about this in
medical school, you know, whichfor me was back in 2017, I
graduated uh medical school.
(19:40):
We joked about it like Dr.
Google, oh my patient asked Dr.
Google, right?
And the technology of AI comingup with medical answers and and
differential diagnoses isincredible.
Every doctor is using it, everyPA, every NPA.
We're all using these AIplatforms to help with our
(20:03):
clinical decision making.
It shouldn't be the only thingthat we do, otherwise robots
could could do our job.
But these patients areextremely informed.
And the same things you had todo when Dr.
Google was a problem 10 yearsago are the same things we got
to do now.
It's like most of the time it'sa lot of fear.
(20:24):
Oh, I got this, you know, I hadthe chest pain, which is from
uh I had a somebody had anxietyand it lists off I could be
having a heart attack, I shouldbe having a stroke, I could be
having this, this, this, this,this.
And you still need to gothrough that same process.
But um it's uh the thediagnostics are getting better,
(20:47):
the AI is getting better.
So people are they're much moreuh armed, if you will, when
they come to my desk of the infothat they have from, like I
said, from diagnostics toprevious biomarkers from
function or wherever else theywere at, and now to the markers
that I'm uh ordering myself.
(21:07):
But it honestly, I I love itbecause it makes for a healthier
conversation and you can almosttalk shop with somebody, you
know.
Before, and I I hate to pick ontruck drivers, but it was it's
always it's they're stereotypedas you're are you're talking to
a doctor when you're if you havea if you're I'm a doctor, I'm
talking to a patient and I'mtalking to another doctor, it's
(21:29):
a much different conversationthan if I'm a doctor talking to
somebody that knows nothing inthis space.
But now that person, thatstereotypical person that knew
nothing in this space knows alot more, and you gotta be you
gotta be on your A game, really,at the end of the day.
Dr Andrew Greenland (21:46):
And how do you personally sift through the
hype in this space?
You the genuinely usefulmedicine from the hype?
Dr Russell Van Maele (21:54):
It's a current struggle that I have,
I'll be honest.
Because there's so much hypeand You know, there's so many,
you know, I'm a 36-year-old guy,right?
There's a lot of gym bros outthere that say they're a doctor
on Instagram, and you lookactually at their credentials,
it's like, dude, I almost it's atotal pride thing, right?
(22:16):
It's it's a it's a it's man, II went through years and years
and years of school and debt andliving at my parents' house and
studying every weekend for mytest that I had to take on a
Monday morning, like I had toshut my life down for years, and
I'm still in debt at thispoint.
And now this person just jumpedon and claimed they're a
(22:38):
doctor, and you should do this.
Your doctor tells you to dothis, and I'm like, U S O B,
like you're not in the right,like you you can't you can't say
that, but I I can't we can'tstop it.
So at the end of the day, wejust need to be better.
We need to take on the thecases that aren't for the
masses, you know, the normalcomplicated ones.
(23:00):
We need to we just need to dobetter as a as a whole, and
really I think at the end of theday, you know, why I became a
do in the first place is liketruly to have great
relationships with my clients,and there is so much information
and noise, especially if youget on social media and
(23:25):
everybody and their mother willhave the protocol or the thing,
and it's it's quite honestly,it's just most of the time it's
noise, and you gotta really tellpeople it's like hey, that
that's legit.
The the the Jim Bro telling youto exercise, that yeah, you
should probably do that, okay.
(23:46):
But the the Jim Bro that'stelling you to hang upside down
and do a coffee enema five daysa week, and that's the only way
you can get healthy, it's likethat one might not might not be
it.
So yeah, it's it's somethingthat I you know I I have to deal
with on a daily basis from uhfrom a professional side and
(24:06):
then from my own from my own umknowledge base, right?
I'm on social.
If I see something, I need tosay, like, is that legitimate or
not?
Should I be implementing thisinto my practice too, or not?
So it's a lot of um it's it'sdifficult.
(24:27):
It's difficult.
It takes a lot of brain powerfor sure.
Dr Andrew Greenland (24:32):
Really interesting on that point.
I recently did a blog and Ilooked at um I got some
interesting data.
77% of health influencersonline have no credentials.
And these people are commandinghuge audiences, and you know
they are influencing with nocredentials.
And uh I think that's a reallyworrying statistic.
Dr Russell Van Maele (24:49):
It's wild.
And some of it, like you can'targue with some of it.
It's like, hey, this is a greatkettlebell complex, and this is
gonna help you put on muscle.
It's like, well, yeah, if youlift a 50-pound weight and you
lift it over your head a hundredtimes a day, you're probably
gonna get bigger shoulders,right?
So a lot of it is real, butman, it just seems like
(25:10):
everybody is impersonatingdoctors.
You know, there's even somelike everybody's like a PhD.
I don't want to go on a soapboxof like, woe is me, I have a
wonderful life and I'm veryblessed.
But even like like the PhDs andeverybody's everybody's a
doctor.
Everybody's a doctor.
I mean, and it gets it getsmore likes, it gets more follows
(25:31):
when you have legitimatemedical advice from a doctor and
you look into them, and they'rea PhD of like nothing, or
something completely opposite ofmedicine, or even like a
mid-level that got a PhD and nowthey call themselves a doctor.
I just it's frustrating.
It's just it, but at the end ofthe day, it's there.
(25:53):
I'm not gonna change it.
I'm not gonna get on the boardsof you know, the DO boards and
you know, scream from therooftops that this shouldn't be
happening.
I just have to separate myselfand be better, and that's kind
of the black sheep healthmentality.
Like just be a little differentand don't be ashamed of it.
Dr Andrew Greenland (26:14):
Totally agree.
So I think one of theinteresting things about your
model is it's deliberatelypremium and high touch.
So, what do you have to deliverconsistently for your patients
to continue seeing real value inthat relationship?
Dr Russell Van Maele (26:27):
Yeah, I really, you know, we want to say
results, right?
That's like the answer that youwant to say.
Like every single one of myclients that comes in is, you
know, did they didn't have a sixpack and now they do, right?
Or their their serious proteinwas two when they got in here
and now it's at the 0.5, right?
(26:48):
Those are great achievableobjective goals.
And don't get me wrong, that'sexactly what I'm trying to do
with most of my clients lowertheir visceral fat, lower their
body fat, improve prove theirinsulin resistance, get them off
of medications.
That's one of my biggest winsever.
If it, you know, I have one ofmy clients and she was on so
(27:09):
many different antipsychotics,antidepressants, uh,
anxiolytics.
And I asked her why.
I was like, Oh, there was apoint in my life where I was you
know depressed.
I'm like, Well, are you now?
She's like, No.
Well, let's see if we can comeoff of these in a med, like a
medically assisted way that'sjust not gonna make you go
(27:29):
through withdrawals, but we'reactually gonna get you off of
these as safely, and now she'son not on any medication.
So, like, that's that's athat's a win.
And uh to me, that's a veryobjective win.
But the real answer is why doesanybody stay with their doctor
for five, 10, 20, 30 years?
(27:52):
It's because they have a greatrelationship with that doctor,
they trust their opinions andthey truly believe that they are
getting healthier, bothsubjective and objective, while
they're under that doctor'scare.
Dr Andrew Greenland (28:09):
And what are some of the less obvious
challenges in involved in kindof delivering that level of
service that patients probablynever see?
Dr Russell Van Maele (28:18):
Less obvious challenges.
I think the I think the thething that I think about mostly
is I'm asking somebody to do alot on their own.
When my worth is determined byyour discipline, that makes for
(28:42):
um it I can look bad reallyeasily if I ask you to do, if I
give you all the protocols andgive you a coach that works with
you once a week, and and then Ishow up to your house
unannounced, and I'm like, hey,you're not, you haven't done
anything I asked you to do.
You're not working with thecoach I signed you up with, and
(29:03):
they're they're coming back tome on a quarterly basis or
monthly basis, like, hey, I'mnot achieving my goals.
Well, you're not doing what Iasked you to do.
So there's a huge component ofthis that is very much you have
to have a self-motivatedpatient, and that's honestly
something that when I'm when I'mtalking to people on my
(29:24):
discovery calls, when I firstmeet them, I'm like, hey, are
you motivated to make a change?
And who are you doing this for?
Are you doing it for yourself?
Are you doing it for somebodyelse?
Because that you gotta we gottareally assess kind of where
you're at because I think that'sthe biggest pain point in
primary care is hey, uh, youhave uh hyper hypertension, we
(29:45):
gotta treat it.
Well, you can diet andexercise, or I'm gonna give you
this pill.
And I know you're not gonna diein exercise, so I'm just gonna
give you the pill.
Okay, I don't want to take thatapproach, but I will if I if I
have to, but I don't want to.
So, as opposed to a surgeon,you know, I've got a lot of
(30:07):
friends and family that aresurgeons, people show up, clip
snip, or whatever that you know,it's obviously much more than
that, but they're in and out,and yeah, they have to deal with
follow-up, but for the majormajority of the part, they they
are not, they are in control.
That person is under anesthesiaand they're doing what they
(30:27):
have to do, and the person goeson their way.
For me, I have to work withthat person, then I have to let
them go out into the wild and dothe things that I we talked
about.
So I think that's the mostunderrated aspect of this whole
longevity space is man, yougotta do your own homework and
you gotta do what your doctorsays before you're trying to get
(30:51):
the results that you knowyou're promised, or don't make
those promises.
Dr Andrew Greenland (30:58):
And with this model, is there anything
behind the scenes that takessignificantly more time energy
time or energy than you think itshould do in kind of
maintaining this level ofservice delivery?
Dr Russell Van Maele (31:09):
Yeah, I think the whole admin aspect,
right?
There's so many things that youknow, you're talking to
basically I'm like a mom andpop, you know, clinic here.
I'm a one-man band, and peoplewant to see me and they trust
me, but I gotta do a lot ofhiring of you know, tech, of
(31:29):
marketing, of advertising.
I gotta run a it's a businessas well, and that takes just so
much more time and thoughtprocess than um I ever would
have imagined.
And uh I'm trying to hire outthose people, and I've done a
pretty good job so far, butthere's always the next step in
(31:51):
in growing your business.
You know, when you have 10patient problems are different
than a hundred patient problems,which are different than a
thousand patient problems.
I don't think I'm ever gonnaget to a hundred, a thousand, I
don't want to.
Um, but uh scaling and growingis uh it's underestimated how
(32:12):
how difficult it is.
And and everybody expects thisword of mouth, like, oh, you're
just such a good doctor,everybody's talking about you.
Reality check, uh, you gottado, you gotta get on social, you
gotta do all these things togrow your clients.
Dr Andrew Greenland (32:30):
And then there's another layer to this,
which I think is reallyfascinating.
So you haven't restricted thisto a particular geographical
location.
You're licensed across all 50states, if I remember correctly.
Dr Russell Van Maele (32:39):
Yes.
Dr Andrew Greenland (32:40):
What made you decide to build nationally
rather than focus on onegeographical target?
Dr Russell Van Maele (32:46):
Well, just simply uh if you're gonna you
know fish in in a pond, it's youknow, you're gonna catch bigger
fish when you're fishing in theocean as opposed to a little
puddle, right?
If I have I've been blessedwith the you know ability to
have all these licensing uhlicenses and maintain maintain
them over the years, that myoutreach is just gonna be
(33:09):
significantly more.
And I never have to turnanybody down.
I could see somebody in Hawaii,I could see somebody in Maine.
It doesn't, it doesn't matter,and I don't I never want to push
anybody away if I don't haveto.
Dr Andrew Greenland (33:23):
You clearly sussed out the tech for making
this um telemedicine approachwork.
Yeah.
But are there any kind of bigoperational lessons that you've
learned along the way fordelivering this level of um
personalized medicine through acompletely virtual model?
Dr Russell Van Maele (33:37):
Yeah, I think you know, you just gotta
have your your bases set up ofall the things that it takes
from from you to have a clientas a cold, like cold lead come
in to results.
And that's a huge timetable ofyou know, let's call it a year.
When that person comes in, yougot to have a a marketing
(34:00):
platform, you got to have abackbone of what you do.
Um, I'm using Go High Levelright now as my backbone, and
then I'm involved in anotherventure uh called HealthAid,
which is gonna be an EMR plus aum white label telehealth uh
(34:22):
marketplace for for otherclinics to join.
So I'm gonna be able to usethat, but you got to have you
know where are you gonna put inyour patient data, you got to
make sure it's HIPAA compliant.
You know, what are you gonnause for Zoom or Google Meets?
How are you gonna actuallyphysically or uh you know
digitally communicate with thesepeople?
Then once you write the note,are you gonna use AI to write
(34:46):
your notes?
Are you gonna manually typethem all out?
You know, I work with a lot ofcool companies like Life Force
is a company that I work for.
Incredible user experience.
You I get on this patientportal and it's beautiful.
I've got all the information Iwould ever need, and in a
beautifully set up labs that aretracking from you know 2021, 22
(35:11):
when I started there, to now wegot all this data and it's
color-coded and it's coming upwith a scoring system to their
health, which I think is kind ofa little uh gamification
overblown.
But people love that and theylove the experience that they're
getting, not just with chattingwith me and having a
relationship with me, but alsoseeing their numbers and seeing
(35:34):
their improvement objectively ina nice way.
So you got to think about allthose other things that go into
it, and then just make sureyou're like a good human,
reaching out to the clients, youknow, texting them, emailing
them, um, checking in on theirbirthdays or a loss in the in
the family or a loved one.
So um it's it's it's there's alot more things.
(36:00):
And then you talk aboutpharmacies.
I mean, I could go on and on.
I've got my own, you know,supplement line that I
white-labeled my own supplementswith, which has been awesome.
But what pharmacies are yougonna partner with?
What happens when estradiolpatches you know go out of
stock?
You gotta you gotta pivot, youknow, and you gotta do all these
things, which is which isamazing.
(36:21):
And you just gotta have, um, atthe end of the day, like with
my marriage, you gotta havegreat communication with your
people and never leave themhanging.
Let them always know thatyou're there and you will come
up with a solution.
Dr Andrew Greenland (36:37):
And you clearly developed a very
comprehensive infrastructure forrunning this show.
Um, but is there anythingthat's kind of um you still lack
at and think, well, there mustbe a better way of doing this,
even despite all of thatinfrastructure?
Is there something that's stilltoo complex that you would love
to be able to solve?
Dr Russell Van Maele (36:52):
Yeah, I would love for the automation or
making like a cloud agent orsomething like that, where I
could literally have thisconversation, like we're having
this podcast right now and callit a medical interview.
And it took everything that wesaid, made a note for the
(37:13):
patient, sent them to theiremail or portal or whatever,
made a medical note, like a soapnote for me, made a supplement
schedule that the thatautomatically sent to the
patient, set them up for theirnext call, ordered the blood
work for you know 90 days fromnow.
(37:34):
If I could just leave the call,man, that's burnout is gone.
I think that's the the biggestthing of burnout is all the
other things.
I love talking with people.
That's my favorite part.
I could talk with a wall andmake friends with the wall,
right?
And I love talking, it'ssomething I truly enjoy.
I love getting to know somebodyand take care of them as a as a
(37:58):
as a doctor.
What I don't like, I don't likewriting notes, I don't like
admin, I don't like all theseother things that it takes to
run a run a business, sotherefore you hire them out.
But man, if we could automatethat to where everything just
happened, uh, I think therewould be a lot more doctors that
(38:21):
would be willing, especially inmy standpoint, family medicine,
uh pediatrics, or internalmedicine, a lot more primary
care doctors would be willing togo off on their own.
And that's kind of in the backof my mind, and when I when I'm
partnering with other companiesand when I'm you know taking
care of my own clients, is howdo I go through all the hoops
(38:43):
and and figure this out to whereI can take that next person
that just finished up theirresidency that is like, what am
I supposed to do?
I just signed up with thisgiant healthcare system that
they're just HR is just down mythroat every single day.
And I'm not, I this is not whatI signed up for.
That's the doctor that I wantto take, and I'm very biased at
(39:07):
doctors.
I am one I want to take care ofother doctors.
I want to take that doctor andbe like, hey, come with me, be
who you whoever you are, andfind your niche of people, and
you can make it work, and thisis how I think that's like my
end goal on a completelydifferent uh aspect of health,
(39:31):
of like giving it to the nextgeneration.
And I'm still very much in theI'm very early in my career, so
but that's but that's what Iwant to do.
Dr Andrew Greenland (39:43):
Thank you.
Um so you have a 50-statemodel, yes, and that gives you a
really um big total addressablemarket for what you're doing.
But is the complexity that hasto be there to make that work
offset the advantage of havingthat reach?
Dr Russell Van Maele (40:01):
Yeah, when the complexity comes in with
making sure you can maintainyour licensure.
So I use a company calledmedlicense.com.
I've used them for the last sixyears, they're wonderful.
I know the owners, um they'rethey're wonderful.
I can't say enough about them,but I highly recommend them.
(40:22):
And anybody that is wanting toget more licensing, which I
would highly advocate for ifyou're in a single state, you
need to get more statelicensures.
Just it's just increasing yourmarketability.
But um, they have kind of takenthat weight off my shoulders.
So, you know, hey Russ, it'stime to complete your CME.
(40:44):
Hey, Russ, you need to sign upfor this, or you know, please
sign that email coming in fromWest Virginia Medical Medical
Board.
That that's a huge burden thatI think people are uh scared of
because there's a definitely anupfront cost to that, and then
there's a cost to maintenance ofthose licensing and renewals.
(41:05):
But when you have the freedomof being your own doctor, that's
and you're running your ownbusiness.
Now that's just you know awrite-off, it it's it's a it's a
great spot to be in.
So that's that's something thatuh trying to remember what the
(41:26):
initial question was.
Oh, uh 50 state license.
So that that's that'sdefinitely an aspect of it.
Um, you know, where do where doyou market to?
I think running like meta adsor um you know getting your name
out there.
There, there's this complexityto that.
So I have my own uh podcastthat I'm starting up that I'm
(41:48):
gonna have um a local one herein Arkansas that's gonna help me
with with those ads and anddoing my socials and and
whatnot, because that's a thingthat some doctors love doing it
and some doctors hate it.
I'm in the hate category.
I do not I do not like gettingin front of a camera and being
like, oh, I love creatine.
This is why.
I just think that's just not mystyle.
(42:11):
Um but there's so manydifferent aspects of how how to
grow this business, and and the50 state licensure is just it it
expands your options.
And if I were to growsignificantly, like how I am
with like uh working with someof these other companies, you
have to develop an MSO PC model,which I have a lawyer that I've
(42:34):
been using for several yearsthat um has created that model
to make sure we are compliantfrom a uh legal practice of
medicine standpoint.
Dr Andrew Greenland (42:49):
I think when we spoke previously, which
is a little while ago now, youmentioned that attracting new
clients was one of the biggerchallenges at that time.
Have you learned anything aboutmarketing a premium product
like what you offer um from yourexperiences?
Dr Russell Van Maele (43:02):
Yes, you have to be you have to be very
confident in what you who youare and kind of how you present
yourself.
That's number one.
Number two, I've I you turnaway the people that uh are just
not gonna be a good fit.
So when people come in as alead through the website or or
(43:26):
hit you up on social and you'reyou're talking with them, you
got to really find out likewho's who's gonna be willing to
be able to pay the membershipand wanting to actually work
with you.
And um I think the biggestthing for me is like sales.
You I have to be become asalesperson, which I've never
felt comfortable with.
(43:47):
I think they kind of theydefinitely uh push that away in
in medical school and residency.
Like you don't need to sellanything because that's a
conflict of interest, but youare very much selling.
Yourself, you're selling therelationship that you're gonna
have with somebody that's gonnabe on the deepest level
(44:08):
possible.
So becoming a salesperson andalso not like if I charge a
thousand dollars a month, Igotta be able to confidently say
that and not be wishy-washy andmake sure that I'm getting the
right client that is willing topay that.
So I think sales has been asomething that I've personally
(44:32):
had to, you know, read books onand talk to my wife who who is
in medical sales uh before shebecame a stay-at-home mom.
So we we have a lot ofconversations about this, but
very underestimated is the salesaspect because people think you
just like you know hang ashingle and put a sign out in
front, and then people just showup, and man, is that ever so
(44:54):
far from the truth.
Dr Andrew Greenland (44:57):
And in closing, where where's the
future for you?
What do you like to do withback black sheep health?
And do you have any particularplans for the future?
Dr Russell Van Maele (45:04):
Yeah, so I want to continue growing this
brand.
I think I really want to getinto the niche of faith-based
men and women that are alsofathers and mothers that want to
(45:27):
take care of their children andraise the next generation of
Jesus Christ followers.
And I think that's my biggestmission from a black sheep
standpoint.
Um, that's my life right now.
I think there's a big gap inthat, and that we kind of want
these things, we don't know howto get there.
And if you don't have yourhealth, you everything kind of
(45:52):
goes out the door.
If you're sick, if you're inpain, you're not gonna be able
to achieve what you what youwant in life.
So I definitely want to growblack sheep to take great care
of people, eventually, probablyhire another like-minded doctor
that uh I can trust and that Itrust is gonna take great care
(46:13):
of my patients, and then goingback to the empowerment of
taking on other physicians,developing a platform that's
like, hey, this is the roadmapto getting your own black sheep,
and I'm gonna help you in thatbecause there's so many doctors
(46:35):
out there that are probablygonna hear this or you know, are
talking to the looking at thatinfluence of being like, hey,
how did they how do they do it,or how are they seeing all these
people?
And because at the end of theday, you get some of these
celebrity doctors that got onegood referral that just kind of
you know rippled effect to allthese people, and they're the
(46:58):
they're the best doctor, there'sthe celebrity doctor, but
they're not doing anythingdifferent than than I am, or
different than that new doctor.
They're doing the same stuff,but they were able to get their
name out there, and that's youjust need one good break.
So there's a lot of things thatgo into it, but um, I
(47:18):
definitely want to give thatconfidence to to young
physicians.
Dr Andrew Greenland (47:25):
Well, with that, I'd love to thank you so
much for joining me, and I wishyou all the best with that
mission.
Um, really enjoyed theconversation today.
And I think what's reallyinteresting about what you're
building is it brings togethertwo things that healthcare often
separates the ability to dealwith something that needs to
happen today, whilst alsothinking much further ahead
about prevention andoptimization longevity.
And I really appreciate youbeing so honest and open about
(47:45):
the realities of building thebusiness and the model that you
have, because I think that sideof healthcare gets talked about
far less than it should.
So I'm very grateful, Ross.
It's been an absolute pleasureto have you on the show.
Thank you so much.
Dr Russell Van Maele (47:57):
Thank you, Dr.
Greenland.
Great meeting you.
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