August 9, 2026 • 44 mins
Success in private medicine often gets defined by numbers: more patients per day, more staff, more locations, higher revenue. We challenge that story with Dr Mark Rosenberg, a board-certified emergency medicine physician and former emergency department leader at Walter Reed who chooses the opposite path: a deliberately low-volume clinical practice built around time, depth, and fewer mistakes. He explains why he sits with patients for an hour, how that changes decision-making, and why he refuses to let “throughput” become the main measure of good medicine.
Mark also shares the personal moment that redirected his career into integrative oncology and cancer research: his mother walking into the emergency department with chest pain, leading to a devastating metastatic diagnosis. From that point, he dives into the science of cancer metabolism, cancer stem cells, and the uncomfortable reality that many breakthroughs never reach patients. We explore what blocks progress in oncology: trial funding, bureaucracy, and the lack of intellectual property that can make potentially helpful treatments commercially invisible.
We also talk longevity medicine, the practical pros and cons of concierge-style fees, and why boundaries become the hidden operational risk when patients have direct access to their doctor. Mark discusses current innovation, including an extracorporeal approach aimed at circulating tumour clusters, and a canine hemangiosarcoma study designed to prove impact quickly in veterinary oncology and potentially fund human trials. The conversation ends somewhere unexpected: meaning, suffering, and how science shaped his evolving beliefs while he writes A Doctor’s Conversation With God.
If you care about patient-centred care, medical leadership, oncology innovation, and redefining what a successful medical career can look like, subscribe, share this with a colleague, and leave a review. What would you prioritise if you could redesign your working week?
Guest Biography
Dr. Mark A. Rosenberg is a board-certified Emergency Medicine physician whose career spans emergency medicine, longevity, integrative oncology, medical leadership, research and innovation.
After training and working in Emergency Medicine - including leadership of an Emergency Department at Walter Reed - Dr. Rosenberg became involved with the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine and developed a growing interest in preventive health and longevity.
His professional direction changed profoundly following his mother's diagnosis with metastatic cancer in 2004. His subsequent work has included integrative oncology, cancer stem-cell research and the development of novel approaches to cancer treatment. He has also served as Program Director for an integrative cancer fellowship and holds leadership and advisory roles across several healthcare organisations.
More recently, Dr. Rosenberg was awarded a patent relating to an extracorporeal filter intended to remove circulating tumour clusters and is working toward further studies of the technology.
Alongside his medical and research work, he writes about science, medicine, mortality and the nature of human life.
Contact Dr Rosenberg
- Website: https://amtcare.com
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-rosenberg-6092006/
- Book: 'Curing Death' https://www.amazon.com/s?k=%22Curing+Death%22+%22Mark+Rosenberg%22
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About the podcast
Voices in Health and Wellness features conversations at the intersection of medicine, lifestyle, and human potential, with clinicians, scientists, and thinkers shaping the future of care.
About Dr Andrew Greenland
UK-based medical doctor and founder of Greenland Medical, specialising in Integrative and Functional Medicine. Trained in both conventional and root-cause approaches, Andrew helps people optimise health, performance, and longevity, with a focus on cognitive resilience and healthy ageing.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:00):
So, welcome back to another episode of
Voices in Health and Wellness.
Today's guest has built amedical career that challenges
some of the conventional ideasabout what success in private
medicine is supposed to looklike.
Dr.
Mark Rosenberg is aboard-certified emergency
medicine physician who has ledan emergency department at
Walter Reed, spent decadesinvolved with the American
Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine,and developed expertise across
(00:23):
longevity medicine, integrativeoncology, and medical
innovation.
What's particularly interestingabout Mark's story is that he
hasn't pursued the conventionalmodel of building the biggest
practice possible.
He's deliberately kept hisclinical work relatively low
volume, giving himself theability to spend more time with
patients while pursuingresearch, innovation, and other
ventures alongside medicine.
(00:43):
So today we're going to explorethat journey, the choices
behind it, the challenges thatcome with it, and what Mark has
learned about building a medicalcareer around impact rather
than simply scale.
So, Mark, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
Dr Mark Rosenberg (00:55):
Thank you for having me.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:57):
So, Mark, you've had a career that's gone
in several directions that Iimagine you probably couldn't
have predicted from the outset.
So, if we go right back, howwould you describe your journey
that's taken you from emergencymedicine to the work that you're
currently doing today?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (01:10):
So it's interesting.
I I think um you and I share uhthe same specialty initially,
anyway.
And um I think many of manyemergency physicians, we become,
you know, jack of all trades,master of none.
We know we know something abouteverything.
And I think many emergencyphysicians, after a while, start
(01:32):
looking in other directions.
And so um while I was, youknow, I was very happy doing
academic emergency medicine andteaching residents.
Uh, when I moved to Florida uhin the States in 1996, uh I
heard about an academy calledthe American Academy of
Anti-Aging Medicine.
(01:52):
And to be honest, at the time,it was uh there was no science
to it, it was all really um, youknow, um um opinions is what it
was, but not science.
And um, so uh, but I wasintrigued, and I I actually I
became an advisor to them andhelped bring in um well-renowned
(02:17):
speakers, you know, doctorsfrom all over.
And um I I got hooked becauseum one of the issues that we we
always hear in the UnitedStates, we don't do health care,
we do sick care.
So we are really good uh athandling crises.
But when you look at the uhmean lifespan in the United
(02:41):
States, it's very clear that wedon't do health care, we don't
promote wellness.
Um right now the the meanlifespan in the United States is
around 77 years.
Um in Cuba, they live threeyears longer than we do.
Um I have had conversations uhwith our uh with the RFK uh
(03:06):
assistants, and uh they areaware that we are the sickest,
wealthiest nation in the world.
So um this I really gotintrigued by um by saying, hey,
can we improve health care?
Can we decrease the incidenceof illness and age-related
disease?
So that's where why I went thatway.
(03:28):
And then um, uh, notfortuitous, that's for sure.
I was still working some shiftsin the emergency department in
2004, and my mom walked in.
My mom usually would call me,but she walked in and I said,
What's going on?
She said, I just rushed overhere because I'm having this
strange chest pain.
And so I started with, ofcourse, a uh a PA and lateral
(03:49):
chest x-ray, and I see a largelung mass, and that leads to CT
chest abdomen pelvis, and she'sgot mets to liver, spleen,
bilateral, adrenal glands, andleft hip.
And and I said to myself, Oh mygod.
Um, so I of course I dug intothe literature and and um I
(04:09):
brought my mom to Philadelphia.
I went to University ofPennsylvania undergrad, and they
said, Look, Mark, you're adoctor.
So here's the deal.
If you do chemotherapy, she maylive six months.
If you don't do anything, shemay live four months, maybe six
months.
And I was blown away thatthat's what we've got.
And of course, this is beforethe time where we developed some
(04:33):
targeted drugs, likespecifically against an
alkymutation or EGFR.
Um, but I I was, of course, uhdismayed.
And so I said, you know, I haddone research in undergrad and I
was actually thinking aboutjust being a PhD instead of an
MD or an MD PhD.
And so I said, I'm gonna startdigging into the literature, and
(04:54):
and I ended up um starting apharmaceutical company um and
and brought a drug to Harvard totarget cancer stem cells.
Uh, most recently, I gotawarded a patent for developing
an extracorporeal filter thateliminates circulating tumor
clusters.
So, this is a direction Ididn't want to go in, I had no
(05:15):
interest and never knew I wasgoing in that direction.
But life takes us to placesthat we don't know we're going.
Dr Andrew Greenland (05:24):
For sure.
And thank you for sharing that.
It's really, really helpfulcontext and hearing about your
start and move move in differentdirections.
But let's look at what youknow, the starting point was
emergency medicine, and you wererunning an emergency department
at Walter Reed.
What did that part of yourcareer teach you about medicine
and leadership at that point ofyour career?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (05:42):
So, um, you know, as far as leadership, it's
actually both army because thearmy put me through med school.
So it's the leadership with uharmy as well as um uh you know
running the the emergencydepartment.
And um, you know, of course,that's where I learned a lot
about leadership because thewhole team, and when I say the
(06:04):
whole team, it's not just theother doctors and the nurses,
it's the medics, uh, and um, andof course, other departments at
Walter Reed would come to mebecause we had to actually set
up mash tents for deployment.
And so it taught me a lot aboutleadership, and and everybody
leads differently.
(06:25):
And um uh I think there's aninnate part.
Um I I will be completelytransparent.
You don't want me being the CEOof a big company, um, and and I
say that because you know, I Ialthough I I like to think I use
my my brain a lot, I use myheart a lot also.
(06:48):
And I nobody would ever call mea tough leader because I'm not.
And every once in a while I hadto do things that hurt me to
let somebody go.
Um, but um, I think it reallyshaped the leader that I became.
And and um and again, I I thinkas I've matured, I'm you know,
(07:13):
I'm 66 years old now, I thinkrather than becoming harder and
tougher of a leader, I'm moreforgiving, more loving.
And and I actually, while somepeople may not like the way I
lead, I like it, and and that'swhat I will continue to do.
Dr Andrew Greenland (07:31):
Thank you.
So you obviously talked aboutyour mother's diagnosis a few
moments ago, and I'm guessingthat was the point or which it
changed the direction of yourcareer.
But you know, you were inemergency medicine, and then
we've suddenly gone intooncology.
So what was the moment when youdecided that oncology was like
your new direction in yourcareer?
Was it that diagnosis?
And how did it kind of shape upafter that point?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (07:53):
It was exactly that.
I mean, that so after thatdiagnosis was made, um, and this
is before AI, of course, thisis 2004.
Um, I I spent hours.
I mean, I think I probablyslept a couple hours a night,
and I I spent, you know, threeweeks just exhausting the
literature, and then I presentedmy mom with about 400 pages of
(08:20):
options.
And um, and um, and but Istarted becoming fascinated.
You know, I I mean, cancer isthe uh, you know, uh just
obviously a devastating disease.
And to this day, you know, Iand I tell my patients this, we
haven't come that far.
Let's go back uh a thousandyears ago.
(08:43):
If they saw cancer, they wouldcut it out.
And if they cut it out beforeit spread, then you won the
game, they're free.
But of course, most of the timewe don't know if it spread, and
certainly they didn't have thetechnology back then.
So it so if it spread, thenthey they they eventually
succumbed to the disease.
Fast forward to 2026.
(09:04):
If it has spread, the best wecan do is utilize some of our
modalities and drugs to try tobuy some more time, but they're
still going to succumb to thedisease.
And I was aware of that when Idid my research in 2004, and I
started studying uh originallywhat's called the Warburg
(09:25):
effect, uh, which is theglycolytic nature of cancer.
And I was fascinated.
It's like, you know, cancer isterrible, but it's also it's
it's fascinating.
It's fascinating, and it'slike, you know, who's the genius
who's gonna figure this out?
So it just sucked me in.
As a matter of fact, I I had auh uh sort of he became a
(09:48):
mentor, he was a board-certifiedhematologist, oncologist, and
we used to lecture together.
And um, I ended up becoming thethe program director for the
first and only uh uh integrativecancer fellowship in the
country, and he would lecturewith me and he said, Mark, uh,
and he was 20 years older thanme, he said, I just want to warn
(10:11):
you, this will suck you in.
It's like a rabbit hole, andyou're going to you're gonna
constantly research and thinkyou've got something in, it'll
just suck you in and you won'tbe able to get out.
And he was right.
Um, you know, you can't restuntil you figure this out.
And you know, this is not aquestion you asked, but do I
(10:35):
think we'll ever have a cure forcancer?
And the answer is no, I don't.
Um, I think that our best hopeis to be able to manage it
hopefully indefinitely, soindividuals die of a different
disease.
Uh, but we're certainly notthere yet.
Dr Andrew Greenland (10:56):
Thank you.
So, one of the things I foundparticularly interesting when we
first spoke was your approachto private practice.
There's often this assumptionthat success means more
patients, hiring more people,opening more locations, and
continually increasing revenue.
But you've consciously donesomething a little bit
different.
And it's very interesting toknow why you deliberately chose
not to build a high-volumemedical practice like everybody
(11:17):
tells us that we probably shoulddo.
Sure.
Dr Mark Rosenberg (11:20):
You know, I think it's because I have other
areas of interest.
Um, you know, initially I saidum I've got a lot of things
going on.
So I'm not going to see 30patients a day.
And let me back up a littlebit.
As you, at least certainly inthe States, um, which doctors
make the most money?
(11:40):
Which are the most profitablefrom a business standpoint?
Well, it's doctors that doprocedures, like surgeons.
And then you don't have to be asurgeon, but you can do
procedures, and that's where youmake your money.
And if you are not doingprocedures, let's say you're a
standard internal medicinedoctor, well, you have to make
your money on volume.
(12:02):
And and when we say volume, Imean I'm talking 25 to 30
patients, you know, in uh, youknow, seven-hour working day,
you know, figure you get an houroff for lunch.
And um, and I realized that Ican't do good medicine that way.
Uh I sit with every patient foran hour.
(12:23):
And so I I told myself, I, youknow, I'm either going to
practice medicine the way Ithink it needs to be practiced,
or I'm not going to practiceanymore.
And um, and um certainly I haveyou know a lot of people who, a
lot of patients who have beenwith me for you know over 20
years.
And um, and so I don't make,you know, I make an okay living
(12:48):
from my practice, but it'ssubsidized by my other projects.
Um, and I I I don't regret thatat all.
Now, in the states, there's away to do what I'm doing and
make really make good money,like you were doing procedures,
and that's the concept ofconcierge medicine.
(13:10):
And so, concierge medicine, atleast in this country, the
doctors say, look, I'm onlygonna take so many patients, you
know, maybe I'll cap it at 50or 75 patients.
That's all, but I'm gonnacharge a yearly fee.
In addition to the charges thatyou'll get when you see me in
my practice, there's gonna be anupfront yearly fee, uh,
(13:31):
anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000.
To I I found out there are somedoctors in Palm Beach charging
$100,000 a year.
Now, you do the math, you get50 patients, uh, that that can
make it work.
So I think um now, what have Idone?
Um, I I feel that there are alot of patients that need me and
(13:55):
they don't have a lot of money.
So sometimes I charge aconcierge fee and sometimes I
waive it, sometimes I cut it inhalf because again, I'm not for
sustaining uh financially,sustaining myself, I'm not
relying solely on the incomefrom the practice.
Dr Andrew Greenland (14:16):
Got it.
So obviously, your prime driveris being allowed to have the
time to spend with patients,which is so important.
But are there any otheradvantages to keeping the
practice of that size andanything that it allows you to
do clinically by having thatsort of um model?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (14:29):
Yeah, I think the you know, a big advantage
is I I think there's lessmistakes.
I mean, you know, for example,in the emergency department,
when you get slammed and you'rejuggling, I remember those days,
juggling 10 to 12 patients at atime, you know, I mean, the
human brain, or at least myhuman brain, can only do so
much.
And you can start makingmistakes.
(14:51):
When I get, um, I'm sure I makemistakes that I'm not aware of,
but I think they're really veryfew.
Uh, because I spend an hourwith each patient, and um um I I
go over everything with afine-tooth comb.
So I really like um the waythat that that it the way I'm
(15:11):
practicing.
Dr Andrew Greenland (15:13):
For sure.
So obviously, um having a modelwith that size, um, you've
mentioned a number ofadvantages, and apart from the
income from the practice, arethere any other disadvantages or
trade-offs that come withkeeping the practice that small?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (15:27):
Well, as far as the disadvantages, um, you
know, I I think um number one,you and I don't know, it's not a
disadvantage to me, but umyou're keeping it small.
There's a lot of people whowant and or need to see you, uh,
(15:47):
and and they can't.
Um but um if I were to say, arethere any other disadvantages
the way I'm practicing?
It's if if I truly want tomaximize my income, what I would
do is everybody gets charged aconcierge fee.
And instead of putting my limitat 50 or 75 patients, you bring
(16:10):
in someone else like uh a nursepractitioner or PA, and now you
go up to 100, 125.
Um, so there are ways to dowhat I'm doing and make it more
profitable.
Um, I'm a little bit of acontrol freak, so I'd want to
look over the PA or nursepractitioners.
I'd end up redoing everything.
(16:32):
But um, yeah, I mean, I have tosay, with what I'm doing, do I
perceive personally anydisadvantages?
No, I'm happy doing what I'mdoing.
Dr Andrew Greenland (16:43):
Amazing.
And are there any challengesaround your own time?
Because I guess everythingcomes back to you.
If you're the sole driver ofthis and all of your patients
are your own, does that not havea sort of consequence on you
and your time?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (16:55):
It it certainly does.
Um, there's no question aboutit.
It's it's not great forfamilies, hence I'm getting
divorced.
Um uh and um yeah, it's likeyour time, and and to be honest,
the more I give, the morepatients expect.
So, way too many of my patientshave my cell phone, and and
(17:16):
they'll just have a thought,they'll be in a store, they want
to buy a supplement, andthey're like, hmm, I'll just
text Dr.
Rosenberg.
What do you think about thissupplement?
What do you think about so thatis a disadvantage, is that you
do have to set boundaries.
And I'm gonna be completelyhonest, I'm not good at setting
boundaries.
Dr Andrew Greenland (17:39):
So, what does your working week look like
at the moment?
You do lots of differentthings.
How does it all factor in?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (17:46):
So, um, what I do, uh, I mean, um it what's
interesting is um only about 20%of my income comes from my
practice.
Yet that's where 95% of my timegoes.
Um, so you know, I get up, youknow, 5 45 in the morning and
(18:06):
take care of the dogs and takecare of the kids, and and uh and
I'm in the office by seven inthe morning preparing for the
day.
And then, you know, I startseeing my first patient either
8:30 or 9.
And throughout the day, youknow, labs are coming in,
emails, and so what I do thoughis I work nonstop.
(18:28):
I don't eat, um, I don't eat,and uh so you know I start work
at seven in the morning and Itypically will finish with
patients around three o'clock.
Uh, but it's nonstop from 7a.m.
to three.
And um I do make time for lotsof coffee, of course, um, but
that doesn't interfere withseeing patients, and um, and
(18:53):
then I have to do paperwork, andso I'm pretty much done with
the office by 4:30.
Then I come home and deal witheverything in the house and the
kids, but as you can imagine, itthe emails keep coming, the
calls keep coming, so it's kindof scattered throughout the
night.
Now, in addition, um, I have tofind the time.
(19:16):
Um, like I'm also, I I think Iyeah, I said I'm the um the I'm
a KOL for the American Academyof Anti-Aging Medicine, and I
have to Fridays, Saturday, andSundays, I have to create
content, I have to to do things.
In addition, for example, nextThursday, I'm presenting um my
(19:39):
um, I'm trying to raise 1.5million for the a dog study.
We're gonna take dogs withhemangiosarcoma, which is one of
the most aggressive cancers.
The median survival oncethey're diagnosed is typically
two to three months.
So we hopefully can show byeliminating their tumor clusters
(20:00):
that we can significantlyextend health span and lifespan.
So I spent I spend time onthat.
And uh next Thursday uh we'representing to another uh entity
to hopefully um you know makesome money, uh I mean, make some
money, get some money for thedog study.
Um, in addition, uh I I like towrite and um on Saturdays and
(20:23):
Sundays, so I don't know if Ishared with this this with you,
but I wrote a book called CuringDeath, a science fiction novel.
Did I tell you that?
So it's although it's sciencefiction, it's um it's somewhat
autobiographical.
So when I say that, so MikeRoyce, Mark Rosenberg, Mike
Royce is an emergency physicianwho works in a trauma center.
(20:46):
And he's kind of cocky, he'syou know, he's very muscular,
good looking, and uh he's in his30s and very quick thinking,
and he's he's the man.
But as you know, in a traumacenter, you lose a lot of
people, a lot of people die, andum so he watches, he looks at
(21:08):
the eyes and in people that die,and and he he feels sad, and
he's like, You I have to figurethis out because he's lost, and
and by the way, in the book,there are all these emergency
medicine cases, um, and they'reall true.
They're all my cases.
Of course, the names have beenchanged, uh, but some of them
(21:31):
are horrific.
Um, some of them will make youcry, some will make you laugh,
and it's it's it's all true.
So, what he does is he asks thehospital, he said, I want to do
a study on uh terminally illpatients, and he gets permission
from the administration to dophysician assisted suicide.
And so his what he says, hegets a team together and they're
(21:54):
gonna bring people into thehospital in a ward, they're
gonna stay uh for months.
Month before they actually pushthe lethal cocktail.
And he's going to study them.
He's going to do frequent CTscans, PET scans, MRIs, lots of
labs.
And his goal is to find acommonality on everybody who's
soon to die.
(22:15):
And if he can find thatcommonality, can he intervene
and stop death?
So what he ends up finding ishe's like the day before and the
day of uh that he's going topush the lethal cocktail.
He he does a pet scan, he'sdoing a PET scan, he's looking,
and he notices that 60 minutes,it's always 60 minutes before
(22:37):
they're scheduled to have thelethal cocktail.
There's an area uh in thetemporal parietal occipital
region that lights up everytime, and then five minutes
later, it's gone.
And then, of course, they pushthe and it's always 60 minutes
it shows up, and then it's gonein five minutes.
And he said, What is that?
(22:59):
Why is that area lighting upalways 60 minutes before we push
the leaf of cocktail?
And he said, It's an energy.
I don't know if it's the soul,I don't know what it is.
And so what he ends up doing isplaying with magnets.
Um, of course, we are all uhelectrical, electromagnetic uh
(23:20):
uh beings, and he puts them uhlike a uh an MRI magnet, but the
MRI goes to three Tesla, and heturns on the magnet and nothing
happens.
The the that hot spot leavesand he turns it higher and
higher, and he can finally hegets an engineer, he turns it up
to 45 Tesla, and all of asudden, that hotspot that starts
(23:43):
to go it starts shuttering andit stops dead, and he's holding
it there as long as the magnet'son, and he pushes the lethal
cocktail and they don't die.
So, everybody that has themagnet on that holds that
energy, it doesn't matter whatyou push, they don't die.
(24:04):
So that was an amazingdiscovery, and that's all I want
to tell you because it getscrazy from there.
So there's a lot of science inthere, and all my thoughts
really.
Um, and right now, of course,it's science fiction.
Who knows uh if it'll always bescience fiction, but it's a
(24:25):
wild, wild ride, and I had anamazing time writing it.
And and interestingly, Irelived many of these horrific
experiences um watching peopledie.
And uh yeah, it was uh it wasan interesting time writing
this.
Dr Andrew Greenlan (24:41):
Fascinating.
What was what was theinspiration for writing the
book?
Was it just this lifelongcareer of all the things that
you'd seen that you wanted tokind of document and write as
cases?
What was the inspiration forputting that down and putting
the science fiction element intoit?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (24:54):
The the I think the inspiration was, you
know, I've been when I was achild, I mean, I was I was
interested in aging.
Um, you may remember the firstlife extension book that came
out by Dirk Pearson and SandyShaw in the 70s, I think.
And I read it, uh, you know, asa teenager.
(25:14):
And I've always been fascinatedwith death and why do we die
and what happens when we die,and can we stop it?
And um, and I think it it waskind of uh um the coming
together of um all my myhorrific cases in emergency
(25:34):
medicine and sadness uh combinedwith my my interest um to
figure this out.
And um, and and I will tellyou, I when I was a kid, like I
used to I wrote short stories,and I realized uh I have a or I
think I have a gift to writescience fiction short stories.
(25:54):
So I'm like, you know, I I hadnever written anything before,
and I just did it, and uh, andit's my baby.
I it was fun, it was a lot offun.
Dr Andrew Greenland (26:04):
Thank you.
So you do lots of things.
You've obviously got yourclinical practice, your
counselor work, longevitymedicine, your A4 involvement,
um, executive responsibilities.
What are the biggest timedrains in the things that you do
at the moment?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (26:20):
There's no question.
The biggest time drains are mypatients.
Um, that is, yeah, I mean, thatoccupies most of my time.
Um and and I apologize.
Um after that, um, I would saywhat I do is I try to spend
(26:40):
three to four hours at the endof every night reading the
literature, searching theliterature, and and it's much
easier now.
You know, I I have to take thatback.
Now it's probably two hours.
AI has been a great help.
And um, but I I spend at leasta couple of hours every night uh
trying to stay on top ofeverything.
(27:01):
You know, you know, I I tellpatients I want to be the AI
myself.
Um, there's really no need tonow because it's right, it's
very uh it's available, but thattakes a lot of my time.
And then, you know, there'sthere's there's another project
that I was asked to be chiefmedical officer for a new
(27:21):
telehealth longevity platform,and I have to write all the
protocols.
So yeah, I mean honestly, Imean I could make a career out
of each one of my projects.
Dr Andrew Greenland (27:33):
So if I gave you a magic wand and we
could free up that time drain,what would your kind of working
week look like?
How would it be different?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (27:42):
So I I will tell you that I would I would
like to work less in the officeseeing patients.
Um and so if you waved a magicwand, you would find someone
that is my clone or similar orhas a similar fund of knowledge
(28:03):
and say, take it over, and everyonce in a while will bring me
in to you know consult.
But that would be a huge umlift um uh of my burden if you
can create a clone for me.
Dr Andrew Greenland (28:19):
Thank you.
Um when we booked our originalum conversation, I did ask you
what your biggest operationalchallenge was in your practice.
Um what what what is that?
Because I don't think we evergot to it, or perhaps you've
already covered it already.
Dr Mark Rosenberg (28:32):
The biggest operational challenge is um uh
and and again it's it's about mesetting boundaries.
Um people the the patientsexpect so much from me, and and
they often don't so I chargecash for each visit, and what
they'll often do is they'llbypass the receptionist and just
(28:56):
call me and basically try toget a phone consult um and
bypassing the visit.
So that has been a bigchallenge, and and it's you
know, I'm the one who set thetone.
Uh, but I am now I've spokenwith my staff and I said, every
time you speak to a patient, letthem know don't call my cell
(29:17):
phone unless it's an emergency.
Everything has to come throughthem.
And so, but that's been mybiggest operational challenge,
and it's because of my own myown fault.
Dr Andrew Greenland (29:28):
Thank you, thank you, and thank you for
your honesty.
Well um, so that brings us toanother fascinating part of your
career.
So I know you've been involvednot only in treating cancer, but
also trying to develop entirelynew approaches to it.
Um, you previously worked oncancer stem cell drug that
reached animal studies butdidn't quite get to progress to
clinical trials.
So, what did that experienceteach you about the difference
between a promising medical ideaand actually getting that idea
(29:50):
into the hands of patients?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (29:52):
Yeah, so that's what um any um if you're
a cancer researcher, cancerscientist, unless you're working
for big pharma university,you're really aware of there
are, I think we all know, thereare many promising modalities,
(30:17):
medicines, uh supplements thatreally repurpose drugs that
potentially could make adifference in um in cancer
treatment.
And when I say make adifference, again, I'm not
talking about a cure, but I'mtalking about improving quality
of life and potentially quantityof life.
(30:37):
But if there's no valuableintellectual property on it, so
these these substances willsimply not be studied.
And um, and that's that's verydisappointing.
Now, in addition, there aredrugs where there is there is IP
on it, but it's um uh obviouslythere's so much bureaucracy um
(31:04):
in many governments andcertainly the United States, and
it's very expensive.
So, what I did is um uh Ibrought a drug to Harvard
because we have no drug totarget cancer stem cells.
And um we actually uh met witha uh a group out of Harvard
called that started a companycalled nanoproteogen, and they
(31:28):
make novel uh nanoparticles.
So they took the drug that Ibrought to them and they put it
in a nanoparticle, and to thatnanoparticle, because of the
leakiness or enhancedpermeability of the vascular
wall in cancer in the cancercell specifically, my drug would
(31:49):
go right there.
So we did mouse studies.
We we did ovarian cancer,prostate cancer, pancreatic
cancer, non-small cell lungcancer, triple negative breast
cancer.
We did all the tough cancers,and the results were remarkable.
Um, and uh so then we, youknow, the next step is raising
(32:10):
money, uh, presenting this data,um raising money for a human
tribe.
And that did not go well, andthe company basically got run
into the ground financially andgone, it's gone.
Um, now I I do there's a newCEO who's a good friend of mine.
(32:31):
He's very busy, but you know,potentially we can resurrect
this.
But you know, I'm sure you'reaware that most new drugs that
are developed will never see thelight of day, a very small
percentage.
But um, you know, I I know thatum there are many modalities
and and and substances out therethat could help.
(32:54):
As a matter of fact, um, so Iwas speaking with the assistants
to uh RFK, um and um and thediscussion I had with them is
that the government needs tostep up when when big pharma
can't benefit from it, even ifthe substance is very
(33:16):
interesting, uh, who's gonnafund the study?
And I said that's where thegovernment needs to step up.
And and I gave them a verysimple example.
We've been using maximumtolerated dose chemotherapy
forever, and uh it's based onfaulty preclinical data.
I have a whole PowerPoint onthis, but every oncologist knows
you need to use the highestamount so that the patient can
(33:39):
stand, so you kill most tumorcells.
The problem with that is youalso kill the immune system.
Um, and and you as you reallykill a lot of cancer cells, you
very quickly um uh cause naturalselection and you select out
for the most resistant cells andyou lose the game.
(33:59):
And so what I did is I pulleddata to some very interesting
publications where they lookedat low dose chemotherapy, high
dose chemotherapy, and thenmedium dose.
And they found in thispublication that medium dose was
the most effective.
Low dose kept the immune systemintact, but it didn't kill
enough tumor cells.
(34:20):
High dose did a great jobkilling tumor cells, but it
killed the immune system.
And the medium dose seemed todo the best of both.
And and so I spoke to theassistant to RFK and I said, the
government mean, I said we haveall these small trials using
medium dose with good results.
But what any oncologist wouldsay is until there is a large
(34:43):
randomized clinical trial usingmedium dose against high dose,
there's no way we're gonnachange.
And of course, my answer is,and that will never happen
unless the government steps up.
I don't know that that's gonnahappen.
Dr Andrew Greenland (35:01):
Wow, okay, and you I know you've got a uh
thing that you're working on atthe moment with the canine
study, you're presenting at ameeting shortly.
What's the next step after thatto get that project moving
forward?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (35:12):
So, you know, if we get, you know, we need
1.5 million.
Um, and you know, that's smallmoney when you're talking about
raising money for a big pharma.
But here's the exciting thinguh for our listeners out there
who may be interested.
So remember, I said withHimangosarcoma that the dogs
(35:32):
that we're going to be studying,so we're not hurting these
dogs, we're we're trying to helpdying dogs.
And the because the mediansurvival is about two to three
months from diagnosis, if we atsix months all the dogs are
alive and thriving, we actuallyimmediately have a veterinary
(35:54):
modality because the FDA, the USFDA, does not get involved in
veterinary medicine, and so wecan immediately start getting
revenue by selling this toveterinary oncologists around
the country, and that could helpfund a human trial.
And so it's actually a bigbusiness for both uh and you
(36:17):
know, people around the worldlove their pets and will do
anything for their dying pets.
And so it's a big business forboth veterinary medicine and
oncology, and that 1.5 millionreally could, you know, that
could launch us, you know.
Right now we're we're um we'revaluing our company arbitrarily
(36:40):
uh at $3 million.
But if during the dog study atsix months, the dogs are all
alive and thriving, we've justdoubled the survival.
And uh immediately when weapply for a human trial, uh we
will publish that and thevaluation of the company, I
don't know, 500 million, abillion.
(37:03):
Um, because this would be, Imean, there's nobody's developed
anything for homangiosarcoma toextend survival.
And if we can at least doublesurvival and quality of life,
that's a home run.
Dr Andrew Greenlan (37:18):
Fascinating.
But Mark, you know, you're 66now.
You described yourself assomeone who genuinely walks the
talk when it comes to longevity.
I guess you're not retiringanytime soon.
So, what's what's next for you?
What are your plans for thefuture professionally?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (37:31):
Well, I I think for the future, here's
what I want to do.
I want to continue research.
Uh, I want to write nonfictionand fiction, and I see myself um
being becoming a public figure,not politically, but a public
figure in science and medicineand wellness.
(37:52):
Um, and um, so I see myself,you know, on stage, I see myself
on uh on podcasts like this.
Um, and I think that's reallythat's my future.
Um, I don't know if I uh, well,you tell me if you want me to
go down that road.
I told you I did I tell you Ijust recently wrote a book that
(38:14):
I I I am uh discussing with uhliterary agents, and it's called
A Doctor's Conversation withGod.
Did I tell you that?
Dr Andrew Greenland (38:23):
No, please do expand.
Please do expand.
Dr Mark Rosenberg (38:25):
Okay, all right.
So um I started life as ateenager as an atheist.
Um, like many scientists, uh Iwas an atheist, and I actually
talked with my parents and said,you know, no offense, mom and
dad, you're not educated and youbelieve in God, and that's
great.
Um, but science doesn't supportthat, and it's really for
(38:47):
uneducated people.
Eventually, with everythingthat I've seen, uh I became an
agnostic.
And then with everything I'veseen, everything I've read, you
know, most of the the books onnear-death experiences.
Uh I've read the book, uh, manyof the books on um you may be
(39:10):
familiar with children betweenthe ages of two and five that
have complete recall of a priorlifetime.
And so I've read all this, anduh, and then um I've re-looked
at the complexity of thisuniverse.
It's so perfect.
I mean, if our if if our moonwas tilted, you know, less than
(39:31):
one degree one way, life wouldnot exist.
It's it's so incrediblyperfect.
And while I was uh I've beengoing through this very
traumatic divorce, which had agreat effect on me, and and I
got deep into depression, I goton AI and I asked it some
questions.
(39:52):
I said, Would you agree thatevery organism is composed of
DNA, RNA, or the combination?
And it said yes.
And I said, Would you agreethat that is a unique code or
program to every organism?
And it said yes.
And then I said, Can you nameone program that does not have a
(40:13):
programmer?
And of course, it said, I seewhere you're going, and that's
why even a lot of quantumphysicists are now saying there
is an organizing force, not onlyan organizing force that set it
up, but is maintaining.
And so what I said in this bookis faith did not bring me to
(40:33):
the belief in God, science did.
And so, what I started doing istalking to uh, and by the way,
I I I need to.
Are you familiar with athree-book series written by
Neil Donald Walsh in the 90scalled Conversations with God?
Are you familiar with that?
I'm not, no, I'm not.
(40:54):
So it was a three-book series,and it was about a man who is
very his life was tough, youknow.
I think he was losing his job,he's getting divorced, life was
just a bummer.
And he he started talking toGod and getting answers and
wrote it down.
And it became it was on the NewYork Times bestseller list for
two and a half years.
It's been translated intoalmost every language, it's all
(41:15):
over the place.
So I started talking, and and Isay right in the preface in my
book, I don't know if I'mtalking to Mark, a higher
version of Mark or God.
All I know is I'm getting wiseanswers.
And I started asking all thesequestions like, God, if if
you're here, when did you gethere?
How did you get here?
Um, if you're this benevolentGod, how do you let um
(41:38):
five-year-old children die ofleukemia?
How do you let um terriblepeople like Hitler kill six
million people?
Um, is there a soul?
If there's the soul, whathappens when it I ask all these
questions and I ask personal,and I said, God, what's the
answer to cancer?
Um, and I and I got all theseanswers, and I sent this to many
(42:05):
of my patients, and it's made agreat impact on their life.
And and again, I don't know ifthis is just you know a higher
version of Mark answering, butthe the answers are profound,
and um it's helped shape mylife, and uh, you know, one of
the things I've learned is thatuh the our purpose for being
(42:25):
here is to give and to love.
That's why we're here, to giveand to love.
And my own conversation hashelped me become the person I
want to become, and uh, so yeah,I hope a doctor's conversation
with God gets out there.
And I see myself, you know, I'mthe science guy, but I see
myself talking about thisbecause um, you know, I I
(42:49):
absolutely believe that there isa collective consciousness and
the universe is conscious, theentire universe.
So, anyway, I know that'scompletely different than
everything else I've done.
Dr Andrew Greenlan (43:02):
Fascinating.
I mean, such a breath to yourcareer and your interests.
Thank you.
Um, so look, you've got decadesof experience across emergency
medicine, longevity, oncology,leadership, uh, research,
entrepreneurship.
If you were starting over againtomorrow, would you do anything
differently with everythingthat you now know?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (43:19):
You know, I I think um, yeah, I didn't know
the direction medicine was goingto be heading in, and I would,
and I thought about this.
I would have gone right intoresearch um uh from the
beginning because that reallyfires me up.
That really intrigues me.
But I am also aware that, youknow, like if I got hired by a
(43:43):
pharmaceutical company, I mean,I'm following orders, right?
I mean, they'll give me acertain amount of leeway.
But honestly, I I think I wouldhave uh just gone right to you
know research, just get a PhD,and uh instead of doing clinical
medicine.
Dr Andrew Greenland (44:01):
And with that, Mark, I'd have to thank
you so much for joining ustoday.
It's been a really fascinatingconversation you've shared so
honestly um about your entirecareer and the various things
that have shaped it.
I think what's particularlyinteresting about your story is
that you've never reallyfollowed the conventional
definition of growth.
You've deliberately kept yourclinical practice relatively
small while creating room foroncology and longevity medicine
and research and innovation andother ventures.
(44:23):
And perhaps that's the biggerlesson here.
You know, growth doesn'tnecessarily mean more patients,
more employees, more locations.
Sometimes it's just aboutcreating enough freedom to spend
your time solving the problemsyou believe are worth solving.
And so, with that, I'd love tothank you so much for joining us
and uh for such a enrichingconversation.
Dr Mark Rosenberg (44:38):
Oh, thank you, Andrew.
I appreciate you having me.
So, welcome back to another episode of
Voices in Health and Wellness.
Today's guest has built amedical career that challenges
some of the conventional ideasabout what success in private
medicine is supposed to looklike.
Dr.
Mark Rosenberg is aboard-certified emergency
medicine physician who has ledan emergency department at
Walter Reed, spent decadesinvolved with the American
Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine,and developed expertise across
(00:23):
longevity medicine, integrativeoncology, and medical
innovation.
What's particularly interestingabout Mark's story is that he
hasn't pursued the conventionalmodel of building the biggest
practice possible.
He's deliberately kept hisclinical work relatively low
volume, giving himself theability to spend more time with
patients while pursuingresearch, innovation, and other
ventures alongside medicine.
(00:43):
So today we're going to explorethat journey, the choices
behind it, the challenges thatcome with it, and what Mark has
learned about building a medicalcareer around impact rather
than simply scale.
So, Mark, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
Dr Mark Rosenberg (00:55):
Thank you for having me.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:57):
So, Mark, you've had a career that's gone
in several directions that Iimagine you probably couldn't
have predicted from the outset.
So, if we go right back, howwould you describe your journey
that's taken you from emergencymedicine to the work that you're
currently doing today?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (01:10):
So it's interesting.
I I think um you and I share uhthe same specialty initially,
anyway.
And um I think many of manyemergency physicians, we become,
you know, jack of all trades,master of none.
We know we know something abouteverything.
And I think many emergencyphysicians, after a while, start
(01:32):
looking in other directions.
And so um while I was, youknow, I was very happy doing
academic emergency medicine andteaching residents.
Uh, when I moved to Florida uhin the States in 1996, uh I
heard about an academy calledthe American Academy of
Anti-Aging Medicine.
(01:52):
And to be honest, at the time,it was uh there was no science
to it, it was all really um, youknow, um um opinions is what it
was, but not science.
And um, so uh, but I wasintrigued, and I I actually I
became an advisor to them andhelped bring in um well-renowned
(02:17):
speakers, you know, doctorsfrom all over.
And um I I got hooked becauseum one of the issues that we we
always hear in the UnitedStates, we don't do health care,
we do sick care.
So we are really good uh athandling crises.
But when you look at the uhmean lifespan in the United
(02:41):
States, it's very clear that wedon't do health care, we don't
promote wellness.
Um right now the the meanlifespan in the United States is
around 77 years.
Um in Cuba, they live threeyears longer than we do.
Um I have had conversations uhwith our uh with the RFK uh
(03:06):
assistants, and uh they areaware that we are the sickest,
wealthiest nation in the world.
So um this I really gotintrigued by um by saying, hey,
can we improve health care?
Can we decrease the incidenceof illness and age-related
disease?
So that's where why I went thatway.
(03:28):
And then um, uh, notfortuitous, that's for sure.
I was still working some shiftsin the emergency department in
2004, and my mom walked in.
My mom usually would call me,but she walked in and I said,
What's going on?
She said, I just rushed overhere because I'm having this
strange chest pain.
And so I started with, ofcourse, a uh a PA and lateral
(03:49):
chest x-ray, and I see a largelung mass, and that leads to CT
chest abdomen pelvis, and she'sgot mets to liver, spleen,
bilateral, adrenal glands, andleft hip.
And and I said to myself, Oh mygod.
Um, so I of course I dug intothe literature and and um I
(04:09):
brought my mom to Philadelphia.
I went to University ofPennsylvania undergrad, and they
said, Look, Mark, you're adoctor.
So here's the deal.
If you do chemotherapy, she maylive six months.
If you don't do anything, shemay live four months, maybe six
months.
And I was blown away thatthat's what we've got.
And of course, this is beforethe time where we developed some
(04:33):
targeted drugs, likespecifically against an
alkymutation or EGFR.
Um, but I I was, of course, uhdismayed.
And so I said, you know, I haddone research in undergrad and I
was actually thinking aboutjust being a PhD instead of an
MD or an MD PhD.
And so I said, I'm gonna startdigging into the literature, and
(04:54):
and I ended up um starting apharmaceutical company um and
and brought a drug to Harvard totarget cancer stem cells.
Uh, most recently, I gotawarded a patent for developing
an extracorporeal filter thateliminates circulating tumor
clusters.
So, this is a direction Ididn't want to go in, I had no
(05:15):
interest and never knew I wasgoing in that direction.
But life takes us to placesthat we don't know we're going.
Dr Andrew Greenland (05:24):
For sure.
And thank you for sharing that.
It's really, really helpfulcontext and hearing about your
start and move move in differentdirections.
But let's look at what youknow, the starting point was
emergency medicine, and you wererunning an emergency department
at Walter Reed.
What did that part of yourcareer teach you about medicine
and leadership at that point ofyour career?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (05:42):
So, um, you know, as far as leadership, it's
actually both army because thearmy put me through med school.
So it's the leadership with uharmy as well as um uh you know
running the the emergencydepartment.
And um, you know, of course,that's where I learned a lot
about leadership because thewhole team, and when I say the
(06:04):
whole team, it's not just theother doctors and the nurses,
it's the medics, uh, and um, andof course, other departments at
Walter Reed would come to mebecause we had to actually set
up mash tents for deployment.
And so it taught me a lot aboutleadership, and and everybody
leads differently.
(06:25):
And um uh I think there's aninnate part.
Um I I will be completelytransparent.
You don't want me being the CEOof a big company, um, and and I
say that because you know, I Ialthough I I like to think I use
my my brain a lot, I use myheart a lot also.
(06:48):
And I nobody would ever call mea tough leader because I'm not.
And every once in a while I hadto do things that hurt me to
let somebody go.
Um, but um, I think it reallyshaped the leader that I became.
And and um and again, I I thinkas I've matured, I'm you know,
(07:13):
I'm 66 years old now, I thinkrather than becoming harder and
tougher of a leader, I'm moreforgiving, more loving.
And and I actually, while somepeople may not like the way I
lead, I like it, and and that'swhat I will continue to do.
Dr Andrew Greenland (07:31):
Thank you.
So you obviously talked aboutyour mother's diagnosis a few
moments ago, and I'm guessingthat was the point or which it
changed the direction of yourcareer.
But you know, you were inemergency medicine, and then
we've suddenly gone intooncology.
So what was the moment when youdecided that oncology was like
your new direction in yourcareer?
Was it that diagnosis?
And how did it kind of shape upafter that point?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (07:53):
It was exactly that.
I mean, that so after thatdiagnosis was made, um, and this
is before AI, of course, thisis 2004.
Um, I I spent hours.
I mean, I think I probablyslept a couple hours a night,
and I I spent, you know, threeweeks just exhausting the
literature, and then I presentedmy mom with about 400 pages of
(08:20):
options.
And um, and um, and but Istarted becoming fascinated.
You know, I I mean, cancer isthe uh, you know, uh just
obviously a devastating disease.
And to this day, you know, Iand I tell my patients this, we
haven't come that far.
Let's go back uh a thousandyears ago.
(08:43):
If they saw cancer, they wouldcut it out.
And if they cut it out beforeit spread, then you won the
game, they're free.
But of course, most of the timewe don't know if it spread, and
certainly they didn't have thetechnology back then.
So it so if it spread, thenthey they they eventually
succumbed to the disease.
Fast forward to 2026.
(09:04):
If it has spread, the best wecan do is utilize some of our
modalities and drugs to try tobuy some more time, but they're
still going to succumb to thedisease.
And I was aware of that when Idid my research in 2004, and I
started studying uh originallywhat's called the Warburg
(09:25):
effect, uh, which is theglycolytic nature of cancer.
And I was fascinated.
It's like, you know, cancer isterrible, but it's also it's
it's fascinating.
It's fascinating, and it'slike, you know, who's the genius
who's gonna figure this out?
So it just sucked me in.
As a matter of fact, I I had auh uh sort of he became a
(09:48):
mentor, he was a board-certifiedhematologist, oncologist, and
we used to lecture together.
And um, I ended up becoming thethe program director for the
first and only uh uh integrativecancer fellowship in the
country, and he would lecturewith me and he said, Mark, uh,
and he was 20 years older thanme, he said, I just want to warn
(10:11):
you, this will suck you in.
It's like a rabbit hole, andyou're going to you're gonna
constantly research and thinkyou've got something in, it'll
just suck you in and you won'tbe able to get out.
And he was right.
Um, you know, you can't restuntil you figure this out.
And you know, this is not aquestion you asked, but do I
(10:35):
think we'll ever have a cure forcancer?
And the answer is no, I don't.
Um, I think that our best hopeis to be able to manage it
hopefully indefinitely, soindividuals die of a different
disease.
Uh, but we're certainly notthere yet.
Dr Andrew Greenland (10:56):
Thank you.
So, one of the things I foundparticularly interesting when we
first spoke was your approachto private practice.
There's often this assumptionthat success means more
patients, hiring more people,opening more locations, and
continually increasing revenue.
But you've consciously donesomething a little bit
different.
And it's very interesting toknow why you deliberately chose
not to build a high-volumemedical practice like everybody
(11:17):
tells us that we probably shoulddo.
Sure.
Dr Mark Rosenberg (11:20):
You know, I think it's because I have other
areas of interest.
Um, you know, initially I saidum I've got a lot of things
going on.
So I'm not going to see 30patients a day.
And let me back up a littlebit.
As you, at least certainly inthe States, um, which doctors
make the most money?
(11:40):
Which are the most profitablefrom a business standpoint?
Well, it's doctors that doprocedures, like surgeons.
And then you don't have to be asurgeon, but you can do
procedures, and that's where youmake your money.
And if you are not doingprocedures, let's say you're a
standard internal medicinedoctor, well, you have to make
your money on volume.
(12:02):
And and when we say volume, Imean I'm talking 25 to 30
patients, you know, in uh, youknow, seven-hour working day,
you know, figure you get an houroff for lunch.
And um, and I realized that Ican't do good medicine that way.
Uh I sit with every patient foran hour.
(12:23):
And so I I told myself, I, youknow, I'm either going to
practice medicine the way Ithink it needs to be practiced,
or I'm not going to practiceanymore.
And um, and um certainly I haveyou know a lot of people who, a
lot of patients who have beenwith me for you know over 20
years.
And um, and so I don't make,you know, I make an okay living
(12:48):
from my practice, but it'ssubsidized by my other projects.
Um, and I I I don't regret thatat all.
Now, in the states, there's away to do what I'm doing and
make really make good money,like you were doing procedures,
and that's the concept ofconcierge medicine.
(13:10):
And so, concierge medicine, atleast in this country, the
doctors say, look, I'm onlygonna take so many patients, you
know, maybe I'll cap it at 50or 75 patients.
That's all, but I'm gonnacharge a yearly fee.
In addition to the charges thatyou'll get when you see me in
my practice, there's gonna be anupfront yearly fee, uh,
(13:31):
anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000.
To I I found out there are somedoctors in Palm Beach charging
$100,000 a year.
Now, you do the math, you get50 patients, uh, that that can
make it work.
So I think um now, what have Idone?
Um, I I feel that there are alot of patients that need me and
(13:55):
they don't have a lot of money.
So sometimes I charge aconcierge fee and sometimes I
waive it, sometimes I cut it inhalf because again, I'm not for
sustaining uh financially,sustaining myself, I'm not
relying solely on the incomefrom the practice.
Dr Andrew Greenland (14:16):
Got it.
So obviously, your prime driveris being allowed to have the
time to spend with patients,which is so important.
But are there any otheradvantages to keeping the
practice of that size andanything that it allows you to
do clinically by having thatsort of um model?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (14:29):
Yeah, I think the you know, a big advantage
is I I think there's lessmistakes.
I mean, you know, for example,in the emergency department,
when you get slammed and you'rejuggling, I remember those days,
juggling 10 to 12 patients at atime, you know, I mean, the
human brain, or at least myhuman brain, can only do so
much.
And you can start makingmistakes.
(14:51):
When I get, um, I'm sure I makemistakes that I'm not aware of,
but I think they're really veryfew.
Uh, because I spend an hourwith each patient, and um um I I
go over everything with afine-tooth comb.
So I really like um the waythat that that it the way I'm
(15:11):
practicing.
Dr Andrew Greenland (15:13):
For sure.
So obviously, um having a modelwith that size, um, you've
mentioned a number ofadvantages, and apart from the
income from the practice, arethere any other disadvantages or
trade-offs that come withkeeping the practice that small?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (15:27):
Well, as far as the disadvantages, um, you
know, I I think um number one,you and I don't know, it's not a
disadvantage to me, but umyou're keeping it small.
There's a lot of people whowant and or need to see you, uh,
(15:47):
and and they can't.
Um but um if I were to say, arethere any other disadvantages
the way I'm practicing?
It's if if I truly want tomaximize my income, what I would
do is everybody gets charged aconcierge fee.
And instead of putting my limitat 50 or 75 patients, you bring
(16:10):
in someone else like uh a nursepractitioner or PA, and now you
go up to 100, 125.
Um, so there are ways to dowhat I'm doing and make it more
profitable.
Um, I'm a little bit of acontrol freak, so I'd want to
look over the PA or nursepractitioners.
I'd end up redoing everything.
(16:32):
But um, yeah, I mean, I have tosay, with what I'm doing, do I
perceive personally anydisadvantages?
No, I'm happy doing what I'mdoing.
Dr Andrew Greenland (16:43):
Amazing.
And are there any challengesaround your own time?
Because I guess everythingcomes back to you.
If you're the sole driver ofthis and all of your patients
are your own, does that not havea sort of consequence on you
and your time?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (16:55):
It it certainly does.
Um, there's no question aboutit.
It's it's not great forfamilies, hence I'm getting
divorced.
Um uh and um yeah, it's likeyour time, and and to be honest,
the more I give, the morepatients expect.
So, way too many of my patientshave my cell phone, and and
(17:16):
they'll just have a thought,they'll be in a store, they want
to buy a supplement, andthey're like, hmm, I'll just
text Dr.
Rosenberg.
What do you think about thissupplement?
What do you think about so thatis a disadvantage, is that you
do have to set boundaries.
And I'm gonna be completelyhonest, I'm not good at setting
boundaries.
Dr Andrew Greenland (17:39):
So, what does your working week look like
at the moment?
You do lots of differentthings.
How does it all factor in?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (17:46):
So, um, what I do, uh, I mean, um it what's
interesting is um only about 20%of my income comes from my
practice.
Yet that's where 95% of my timegoes.
Um, so you know, I get up, youknow, 5 45 in the morning and
(18:06):
take care of the dogs and takecare of the kids, and and uh and
I'm in the office by seven inthe morning preparing for the
day.
And then, you know, I startseeing my first patient either
8:30 or 9.
And throughout the day, youknow, labs are coming in,
emails, and so what I do thoughis I work nonstop.
(18:28):
I don't eat, um, I don't eat,and uh so you know I start work
at seven in the morning and Itypically will finish with
patients around three o'clock.
Uh, but it's nonstop from 7a.m.
to three.
And um I do make time for lotsof coffee, of course, um, but
that doesn't interfere withseeing patients, and um, and
(18:53):
then I have to do paperwork, andso I'm pretty much done with
the office by 4:30.
Then I come home and deal witheverything in the house and the
kids, but as you can imagine, itthe emails keep coming, the
calls keep coming, so it's kindof scattered throughout the
night.
Now, in addition, um, I have tofind the time.
(19:16):
Um, like I'm also, I I think Iyeah, I said I'm the um the I'm
a KOL for the American Academyof Anti-Aging Medicine, and I
have to Fridays, Saturday, andSundays, I have to create
content, I have to to do things.
In addition, for example, nextThursday, I'm presenting um my
(19:39):
um, I'm trying to raise 1.5million for the a dog study.
We're gonna take dogs withhemangiosarcoma, which is one of
the most aggressive cancers.
The median survival oncethey're diagnosed is typically
two to three months.
So we hopefully can show byeliminating their tumor clusters
(20:00):
that we can significantlyextend health span and lifespan.
So I spent I spend time onthat.
And uh next Thursday uh we'representing to another uh entity
to hopefully um you know makesome money, uh I mean, make some
money, get some money for thedog study.
Um, in addition, uh I I like towrite and um on Saturdays and
(20:23):
Sundays, so I don't know if Ishared with this this with you,
but I wrote a book called CuringDeath, a science fiction novel.
Did I tell you that?
So it's although it's sciencefiction, it's um it's somewhat
autobiographical.
So when I say that, so MikeRoyce, Mark Rosenberg, Mike
Royce is an emergency physicianwho works in a trauma center.
(20:46):
And he's kind of cocky, he'syou know, he's very muscular,
good looking, and uh he's in his30s and very quick thinking,
and he's he's the man.
But as you know, in a traumacenter, you lose a lot of
people, a lot of people die, andum so he watches, he looks at
(21:08):
the eyes and in people that die,and and he he feels sad, and
he's like, You I have to figurethis out because he's lost, and
and by the way, in the book,there are all these emergency
medicine cases, um, and they'reall true.
They're all my cases.
Of course, the names have beenchanged, uh, but some of them
(21:31):
are horrific.
Um, some of them will make youcry, some will make you laugh,
and it's it's it's all true.
So, what he does is he asks thehospital, he said, I want to do
a study on uh terminally illpatients, and he gets permission
from the administration to dophysician assisted suicide.
And so his what he says, hegets a team together and they're
(21:54):
gonna bring people into thehospital in a ward, they're
gonna stay uh for months.
Month before they actually pushthe lethal cocktail.
And he's going to study them.
He's going to do frequent CTscans, PET scans, MRIs, lots of
labs.
And his goal is to find acommonality on everybody who's
soon to die.
(22:15):
And if he can find thatcommonality, can he intervene
and stop death?
So what he ends up finding ishe's like the day before and the
day of uh that he's going topush the lethal cocktail.
He he does a pet scan, he'sdoing a PET scan, he's looking,
and he notices that 60 minutes,it's always 60 minutes before
(22:37):
they're scheduled to have thelethal cocktail.
There's an area uh in thetemporal parietal occipital
region that lights up everytime, and then five minutes
later, it's gone.
And then, of course, they pushthe and it's always 60 minutes
it shows up, and then it's gonein five minutes.
And he said, What is that?
(22:59):
Why is that area lighting upalways 60 minutes before we push
the leaf of cocktail?
And he said, It's an energy.
I don't know if it's the soul,I don't know what it is.
And so what he ends up doing isplaying with magnets.
Um, of course, we are all uhelectrical, electromagnetic uh
(23:20):
uh beings, and he puts them uhlike a uh an MRI magnet, but the
MRI goes to three Tesla, and heturns on the magnet and nothing
happens.
The the that hot spot leavesand he turns it higher and
higher, and he can finally hegets an engineer, he turns it up
to 45 Tesla, and all of asudden, that hotspot that starts
(23:43):
to go it starts shuttering andit stops dead, and he's holding
it there as long as the magnet'son, and he pushes the lethal
cocktail and they don't die.
So, everybody that has themagnet on that holds that
energy, it doesn't matter whatyou push, they don't die.
(24:04):
So that was an amazingdiscovery, and that's all I want
to tell you because it getscrazy from there.
So there's a lot of science inthere, and all my thoughts
really.
Um, and right now, of course,it's science fiction.
Who knows uh if it'll always bescience fiction, but it's a
(24:25):
wild, wild ride, and I had anamazing time writing it.
And and interestingly, Irelived many of these horrific
experiences um watching peopledie.
And uh yeah, it was uh it wasan interesting time writing
this.
Dr Andrew Greenlan (24:41):
Fascinating.
What was what was theinspiration for writing the
book?
Was it just this lifelongcareer of all the things that
you'd seen that you wanted tokind of document and write as
cases?
What was the inspiration forputting that down and putting
the science fiction element intoit?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (24:54):
The the I think the inspiration was, you
know, I've been when I was achild, I mean, I was I was
interested in aging.
Um, you may remember the firstlife extension book that came
out by Dirk Pearson and SandyShaw in the 70s, I think.
And I read it, uh, you know, asa teenager.
(25:14):
And I've always been fascinatedwith death and why do we die
and what happens when we die,and can we stop it?
And um, and I think it it waskind of uh um the coming
together of um all my myhorrific cases in emergency
(25:34):
medicine and sadness uh combinedwith my my interest um to
figure this out.
And um, and and I will tellyou, I when I was a kid, like I
used to I wrote short stories,and I realized uh I have a or I
think I have a gift to writescience fiction short stories.
(25:54):
So I'm like, you know, I I hadnever written anything before,
and I just did it, and uh, andit's my baby.
I it was fun, it was a lot offun.
Dr Andrew Greenland (26:04):
Thank you.
So you do lots of things.
You've obviously got yourclinical practice, your
counselor work, longevitymedicine, your A4 involvement,
um, executive responsibilities.
What are the biggest timedrains in the things that you do
at the moment?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (26:20):
There's no question.
The biggest time drains are mypatients.
Um, that is, yeah, I mean, thatoccupies most of my time.
Um and and I apologize.
Um after that, um, I would saywhat I do is I try to spend
(26:40):
three to four hours at the endof every night reading the
literature, searching theliterature, and and it's much
easier now.
You know, I I have to take thatback.
Now it's probably two hours.
AI has been a great help.
And um, but I I spend at leasta couple of hours every night uh
trying to stay on top ofeverything.
(27:01):
You know, you know, I I tellpatients I want to be the AI
myself.
Um, there's really no need tonow because it's right, it's
very uh it's available, but thattakes a lot of my time.
And then, you know, there'sthere's there's another project
that I was asked to be chiefmedical officer for a new
(27:21):
telehealth longevity platform,and I have to write all the
protocols.
So yeah, I mean honestly, Imean I could make a career out
of each one of my projects.
Dr Andrew Greenland (27:33):
So if I gave you a magic wand and we
could free up that time drain,what would your kind of working
week look like?
How would it be different?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (27:42):
So I I will tell you that I would I would
like to work less in the officeseeing patients.
Um and so if you waved a magicwand, you would find someone
that is my clone or similar orhas a similar fund of knowledge
(28:03):
and say, take it over, and everyonce in a while will bring me
in to you know consult.
But that would be a huge umlift um uh of my burden if you
can create a clone for me.
Dr Andrew Greenland (28:19):
Thank you.
Um when we booked our originalum conversation, I did ask you
what your biggest operationalchallenge was in your practice.
Um what what what is that?
Because I don't think we evergot to it, or perhaps you've
already covered it already.
Dr Mark Rosenberg (28:32):
The biggest operational challenge is um uh
and and again it's it's about mesetting boundaries.
Um people the the patientsexpect so much from me, and and
they often don't so I chargecash for each visit, and what
they'll often do is they'llbypass the receptionist and just
(28:56):
call me and basically try toget a phone consult um and
bypassing the visit.
So that has been a bigchallenge, and and it's you
know, I'm the one who set thetone.
Uh, but I am now I've spokenwith my staff and I said, every
time you speak to a patient, letthem know don't call my cell
(29:17):
phone unless it's an emergency.
Everything has to come throughthem.
And so, but that's been mybiggest operational challenge,
and it's because of my own myown fault.
Dr Andrew Greenland (29:28):
Thank you, thank you, and thank you for
your honesty.
Well um, so that brings us toanother fascinating part of your
career.
So I know you've been involvednot only in treating cancer, but
also trying to develop entirelynew approaches to it.
Um, you previously worked oncancer stem cell drug that
reached animal studies butdidn't quite get to progress to
clinical trials.
So, what did that experienceteach you about the difference
between a promising medical ideaand actually getting that idea
(29:50):
into the hands of patients?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (29:52):
Yeah, so that's what um any um if you're
a cancer researcher, cancerscientist, unless you're working
for big pharma university,you're really aware of there
are, I think we all know, thereare many promising modalities,
(30:17):
medicines, uh supplements thatreally repurpose drugs that
potentially could make adifference in um in cancer
treatment.
And when I say make adifference, again, I'm not
talking about a cure, but I'mtalking about improving quality
of life and potentially quantityof life.
(30:37):
But if there's no valuableintellectual property on it, so
these these substances willsimply not be studied.
And um, and that's that's verydisappointing.
Now, in addition, there aredrugs where there is there is IP
on it, but it's um uh obviouslythere's so much bureaucracy um
(31:04):
in many governments andcertainly the United States, and
it's very expensive.
So, what I did is um uh Ibrought a drug to Harvard
because we have no drug totarget cancer stem cells.
And um we actually uh met witha uh a group out of Harvard
called that started a companycalled nanoproteogen, and they
(31:28):
make novel uh nanoparticles.
So they took the drug that Ibrought to them and they put it
in a nanoparticle, and to thatnanoparticle, because of the
leakiness or enhancedpermeability of the vascular
wall in cancer in the cancercell specifically, my drug would
(31:49):
go right there.
So we did mouse studies.
We we did ovarian cancer,prostate cancer, pancreatic
cancer, non-small cell lungcancer, triple negative breast
cancer.
We did all the tough cancers,and the results were remarkable.
Um, and uh so then we, youknow, the next step is raising
(32:10):
money, uh, presenting this data,um raising money for a human
tribe.
And that did not go well, andthe company basically got run
into the ground financially andgone, it's gone.
Um, now I I do there's a newCEO who's a good friend of mine.
(32:31):
He's very busy, but you know,potentially we can resurrect
this.
But you know, I'm sure you'reaware that most new drugs that
are developed will never see thelight of day, a very small
percentage.
But um, you know, I I know thatum there are many modalities
and and and substances out therethat could help.
(32:54):
As a matter of fact, um, so Iwas speaking with the assistants
to uh RFK, um and um and thediscussion I had with them is
that the government needs tostep up when when big pharma
can't benefit from it, even ifthe substance is very
(33:16):
interesting, uh, who's gonnafund the study?
And I said that's where thegovernment needs to step up.
And and I gave them a verysimple example.
We've been using maximumtolerated dose chemotherapy
forever, and uh it's based onfaulty preclinical data.
I have a whole PowerPoint onthis, but every oncologist knows
you need to use the highestamount so that the patient can
(33:39):
stand, so you kill most tumorcells.
The problem with that is youalso kill the immune system.
Um, and and you as you reallykill a lot of cancer cells, you
very quickly um uh cause naturalselection and you select out
for the most resistant cells andyou lose the game.
(33:59):
And so what I did is I pulleddata to some very interesting
publications where they lookedat low dose chemotherapy, high
dose chemotherapy, and thenmedium dose.
And they found in thispublication that medium dose was
the most effective.
Low dose kept the immune systemintact, but it didn't kill
enough tumor cells.
(34:20):
High dose did a great jobkilling tumor cells, but it
killed the immune system.
And the medium dose seemed todo the best of both.
And and so I spoke to theassistant to RFK and I said, the
government mean, I said we haveall these small trials using
medium dose with good results.
But what any oncologist wouldsay is until there is a large
(34:43):
randomized clinical trial usingmedium dose against high dose,
there's no way we're gonnachange.
And of course, my answer is,and that will never happen
unless the government steps up.
I don't know that that's gonnahappen.
Dr Andrew Greenland (35:01):
Wow, okay, and you I know you've got a uh
thing that you're working on atthe moment with the canine
study, you're presenting at ameeting shortly.
What's the next step after thatto get that project moving
forward?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (35:12):
So, you know, if we get, you know, we need
1.5 million.
Um, and you know, that's smallmoney when you're talking about
raising money for a big pharma.
But here's the exciting thinguh for our listeners out there
who may be interested.
So remember, I said withHimangosarcoma that the dogs
(35:32):
that we're going to be studying,so we're not hurting these
dogs, we're we're trying to helpdying dogs.
And the because the mediansurvival is about two to three
months from diagnosis, if we atsix months all the dogs are
alive and thriving, we actuallyimmediately have a veterinary
(35:54):
modality because the FDA, the USFDA, does not get involved in
veterinary medicine, and so wecan immediately start getting
revenue by selling this toveterinary oncologists around
the country, and that could helpfund a human trial.
And so it's actually a bigbusiness for both uh and you
(36:17):
know, people around the worldlove their pets and will do
anything for their dying pets.
And so it's a big business forboth veterinary medicine and
oncology, and that 1.5 millionreally could, you know, that
could launch us, you know.
Right now we're we're um we'revaluing our company arbitrarily
(36:40):
uh at $3 million.
But if during the dog study atsix months, the dogs are all
alive and thriving, we've justdoubled the survival.
And uh immediately when weapply for a human trial, uh we
will publish that and thevaluation of the company, I
don't know, 500 million, abillion.
(37:03):
Um, because this would be, Imean, there's nobody's developed
anything for homangiosarcoma toextend survival.
And if we can at least doublesurvival and quality of life,
that's a home run.
Dr Andrew Greenlan (37:18):
Fascinating.
But Mark, you know, you're 66now.
You described yourself assomeone who genuinely walks the
talk when it comes to longevity.
I guess you're not retiringanytime soon.
So, what's what's next for you?
What are your plans for thefuture professionally?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (37:31):
Well, I I think for the future, here's
what I want to do.
I want to continue research.
Uh, I want to write nonfictionand fiction, and I see myself um
being becoming a public figure,not politically, but a public
figure in science and medicineand wellness.
(37:52):
Um, and um, so I see myself,you know, on stage, I see myself
on uh on podcasts like this.
Um, and I think that's reallythat's my future.
Um, I don't know if I uh, well,you tell me if you want me to
go down that road.
I told you I did I tell you Ijust recently wrote a book that
(38:14):
I I I am uh discussing with uhliterary agents, and it's called
A Doctor's Conversation withGod.
Did I tell you that?
Dr Andrew Greenland (38:23):
No, please do expand.
Please do expand.
Dr Mark Rosenberg (38:25):
Okay, all right.
So um I started life as ateenager as an atheist.
Um, like many scientists, uh Iwas an atheist, and I actually
talked with my parents and said,you know, no offense, mom and
dad, you're not educated and youbelieve in God, and that's
great.
Um, but science doesn't supportthat, and it's really for
(38:47):
uneducated people.
Eventually, with everythingthat I've seen, uh I became an
agnostic.
And then with everything I'veseen, everything I've read, you
know, most of the the books onnear-death experiences.
Uh I've read the book, uh, manyof the books on um you may be
(39:10):
familiar with children betweenthe ages of two and five that
have complete recall of a priorlifetime.
And so I've read all this, anduh, and then um I've re-looked
at the complexity of thisuniverse.
It's so perfect.
I mean, if our if if our moonwas tilted, you know, less than
(39:31):
one degree one way, life wouldnot exist.
It's it's so incrediblyperfect.
And while I was uh I've beengoing through this very
traumatic divorce, which had agreat effect on me, and and I
got deep into depression, I goton AI and I asked it some
questions.
(39:52):
I said, Would you agree thatevery organism is composed of
DNA, RNA, or the combination?
And it said yes.
And I said, Would you agreethat that is a unique code or
program to every organism?
And it said yes.
And then I said, Can you nameone program that does not have a
(40:13):
programmer?
And of course, it said, I seewhere you're going, and that's
why even a lot of quantumphysicists are now saying there
is an organizing force, not onlyan organizing force that set it
up, but is maintaining.
And so what I said in this bookis faith did not bring me to
(40:33):
the belief in God, science did.
And so, what I started doing istalking to uh, and by the way,
I I I need to.
Are you familiar with athree-book series written by
Neil Donald Walsh in the 90scalled Conversations with God?
Are you familiar with that?
I'm not, no, I'm not.
(40:54):
So it was a three-book series,and it was about a man who is
very his life was tough, youknow.
I think he was losing his job,he's getting divorced, life was
just a bummer.
And he he started talking toGod and getting answers and
wrote it down.
And it became it was on the NewYork Times bestseller list for
two and a half years.
It's been translated intoalmost every language, it's all
(41:15):
over the place.
So I started talking, and and Isay right in the preface in my
book, I don't know if I'mtalking to Mark, a higher
version of Mark or God.
All I know is I'm getting wiseanswers.
And I started asking all thesequestions like, God, if if
you're here, when did you gethere?
How did you get here?
Um, if you're this benevolentGod, how do you let um
(41:38):
five-year-old children die ofleukemia?
How do you let um terriblepeople like Hitler kill six
million people?
Um, is there a soul?
If there's the soul, whathappens when it I ask all these
questions and I ask personal,and I said, God, what's the
answer to cancer?
Um, and I and I got all theseanswers, and I sent this to many
(42:05):
of my patients, and it's made agreat impact on their life.
And and again, I don't know ifthis is just you know a higher
version of Mark answering, butthe the answers are profound,
and um it's helped shape mylife, and uh, you know, one of
the things I've learned is thatuh the our purpose for being
(42:25):
here is to give and to love.
That's why we're here, to giveand to love.
And my own conversation hashelped me become the person I
want to become, and uh, so yeah,I hope a doctor's conversation
with God gets out there.
And I see myself, you know, I'mthe science guy, but I see
myself talking about thisbecause um, you know, I I
(42:49):
absolutely believe that there isa collective consciousness and
the universe is conscious, theentire universe.
So, anyway, I know that'scompletely different than
everything else I've done.
Dr Andrew Greenlan (43:02):
Fascinating.
I mean, such a breath to yourcareer and your interests.
Thank you.
Um, so look, you've got decadesof experience across emergency
medicine, longevity, oncology,leadership, uh, research,
entrepreneurship.
If you were starting over againtomorrow, would you do anything
differently with everythingthat you now know?
Dr Mark Rosenberg (43:19):
You know, I I think um, yeah, I didn't know
the direction medicine was goingto be heading in, and I would,
and I thought about this.
I would have gone right intoresearch um uh from the
beginning because that reallyfires me up.
That really intrigues me.
But I am also aware that, youknow, like if I got hired by a
(43:43):
pharmaceutical company, I mean,I'm following orders, right?
I mean, they'll give me acertain amount of leeway.
But honestly, I I think I wouldhave uh just gone right to you
know research, just get a PhD,and uh instead of doing clinical
medicine.
Dr Andrew Greenland (44:01):
And with that, Mark, I'd have to thank
you so much for joining ustoday.
It's been a really fascinatingconversation you've shared so
honestly um about your entirecareer and the various things
that have shaped it.
I think what's particularlyinteresting about your story is
that you've never reallyfollowed the conventional
definition of growth.
You've deliberately kept yourclinical practice relatively
small while creating room foroncology and longevity medicine
and research and innovation andother ventures.
(44:23):
And perhaps that's the biggerlesson here.
You know, growth doesn'tnecessarily mean more patients,
more employees, more locations.
Sometimes it's just aboutcreating enough freedom to spend
your time solving the problemsyou believe are worth solving.
And so, with that, I'd love tothank you so much for joining us
and uh for such a enrichingconversation.
Dr Mark Rosenberg (44:38):
Oh, thank you, Andrew.
I appreciate you having me.
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