Gail Shalan

On this week's episode I sit down with the wonderful and dulcet tones of Gail Shalan. We discuss everything from the world of audiobooks to doing puppet Shakespeare!

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You can find more info about my work as an actor and voiceover artist on my website at: www.johnmaddaloni.com

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Do you want to be the person guessing or uh or
with the thing in their head?

SPEAKER_04 (00:06):
I'll guess.
You'll guess?

SPEAKER_01 (00:07):
Okay, good.
That is probably for the best.
I'll I'll try to make iteasy-ish.
Um no, I got one.
I got one.
Nice.

SPEAKER_05 (00:17):
Okay.
Tree or Stalin?

SPEAKER_01 (00:19):
Uh tree.
Oh wait, actually.
See, this is the thing.
It's an interpretation game.

SPEAKER_05 (00:25):
It really is.
And hard to play with astranger.

SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
Wait, oh, this is actually quite hard.
Okay.
I'm gonna say tree.
But Yes, I'm gonna say tree.
I'm gonna say tree there.
Okay.

SPEAKER_05 (00:36):
Yeah.
Tree or child.
A child just screaming.

SPEAKER_01 (00:40):
Yeah, I was just gonna say neighbor, oh their kid
is always screaming.
It's so funny.
Um goddamn.
Why did I ch this is harder thanI thought for some reason.

SPEAKER_03 (00:48):
Uh-oh.
This is a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 (00:49):
Because there's so many different ways you can
interpret this, but I think youknow, I'll go child.
That's like sacrilegious what Ijust did, but going from like an
object to a person.
I asked.
I'll say children.

SPEAKER_05 (01:03):
That was the initial question as well.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05):
I know, but usually that narrows it down, and I feel
like I'm sort of sw swapping itaround.

SPEAKER_05 (01:09):
No, no, no, it's okay.
Child or butterfly?

SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
I'll say child.
Yeah, child.

SPEAKER_05 (01:14):
Okay.
Child or butterfly.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17):
I fear I've made it even harder.
Um child.

SPEAKER_05 (01:21):
Yeah, this is gonna get a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 (01:23):
I know, I made this hard.
I I've confused, I feel likeI've I've created a confusion
here.

SPEAKER_05 (01:27):
Child or library book.

SPEAKER_01 (01:29):
Library book.

SPEAKER_05 (01:30):
Whoa, okay, we're onto something now.
Okay, okay.
Whoa, okay.
Library book or bookstore book.

SPEAKER_01 (01:38):
I'm gonna say library book still.

SPEAKER_05 (01:40):
Okay, okay.
Um library book or uh Subwaycar.

SPEAKER_01 (01:48):
Library book.

SPEAKER_05 (01:50):
This is a really hard game.
You are surprisingly close rightnow.
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:55):
I I was uh that's why I got so excited.
You got very close very quickly.

SPEAKER_05 (01:59):
Uh library book or I'm like almost about to mouth
it.

SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
I don't know why.

SPEAKER_05 (02:06):
Can we get some miming involved?

SPEAKER_01 (02:09):
Uh no, I think you can get it.
Library book is very close.

SPEAKER_05 (02:14):
Library book or um audiobook?
Yeah!

SPEAKER_06 (02:19):
Oh, we had a theme that I should have known.

SPEAKER_01 (02:25):
I was like, so do you do you get why?
Uh because I'm like, it's athing, but it's it's voiced by
people.
So I'm like, it like that's whyI was like Tree or Stalin.
I was like, okay, well, it'skind of a it's a little bit of
both in a way.

SPEAKER_05 (02:38):
I could also see the logic of like a book is made of
paper, maybe made of it.

SPEAKER_01 (02:43):
Oh okay, yeah, yeah.
You're you're making it But youcould really go either way,
right?
You're giving me more creditthan I think I deserve,
honestly.

SPEAKER_05 (02:51):
Just trying to be supportive.

SPEAKER_01 (02:53):
I appreciate it.
Welcome to Working Class Acts.

(03:15):
Hello and welcome to the WorkingClass Acts podcast.
I'm your host, John Matalone.
My guest is staring at me like,what the fuck were you just
doing?
Who are you?
It's something I do literallyevery episode.
Uh I am here today with a newfriend.
I'm gonna say that, a newfriend.

(03:36):
She is a storyteller on screen,on stage, and behind the mic.
She is a three-time Audiaward-winning audiobook
narrator.
She is an alum of the BristolOld Vic Theater Program, and she
is a what was the last thing yousaid?
And she's just a great person.
She's just what I said.

SPEAKER_05 (03:55):
I'm like, I'm a great person.

SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
She's a great person.

SPEAKER_05 (03:59):
She's a curious human.

SPEAKER_01 (04:00):
She's a curious human.
That is it.
And that is true because we'vebeen chatting up a storm even
before she got on the mic.
It's Gail Shallon.
Gail Shallon.
How are you, Gail?

SPEAKER_04 (04:10):
Hey, John.

SPEAKER_01 (04:12):
I'm so glad you're finally here.
You're a great person.
Great, curious person.
Um, well, I'm so glad you'rehere.
It's been a couple of yearswe've been trying to get you on
the podcast now, and we'refinally here doing it, and we've
already been having some greatconversations.
It's been so fun.

SPEAKER_04 (04:27):
Yes, it's true.
It's so good talking with youalready.

SPEAKER_01 (04:30):
Oh my god, yes.
Um, so Gail, you know uh youknow Britton Seibert.
That's how we kind of got incontact.
Yes.
That's season one, episode onefor those uh listening,
watching, whatever you do.
I listened.
Yes.
Um, how did you get to know uhBritton?
You were saying that you met atat school, yes?

SPEAKER_05 (04:48):
Yeah, Brittany and I met in our undergrad training at
Boston University.
We were in the same class.
Oh my god, fantastic.
A pleasure and a delight.

SPEAKER_02 (04:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (04:56):
Um, and we also did study abroad together and have
kept in touch.
And it's just lovely to have herin my life.

SPEAKER_01 (05:03):
Oh, that's so lovely.
She's such a sweet person.
Yes.
Um So, Gail, take me back.
Show me where where did you growup?
Where where were you born?

SPEAKER_05 (05:14):
Okay.
Two different answers there.
There you go.
Um, I was born in Chicago,Illinois.

SPEAKER_01 (05:20):
Okay.

SPEAKER_05 (05:20):
I lived there for approximately six months of my
life.

SPEAKER_02 (05:23):
Okay.

SPEAKER_05 (05:24):
Um, and then my folks kind of hopped around a
little bit, um, mostly in theNew England area.
So after Chicago, they moved toProvidence and then uh
Kennybunkport, Maine.

SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
Kennybunk?

SPEAKER_05 (05:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (05:39):
That's a fun name.

SPEAKER_05 (05:41):
Yeah.
We're full of them in NewEngland.

SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
I am easily distracted.

SPEAKER_05 (05:46):
So I have ADHD, so we're good.
Yeah.
Um, and and then settled in uhStockbridge, Massachusetts, in
the Berkshires, which was agreat place to grow up as a
little bartsy child.

SPEAKER_01 (05:57):
I'm from uh I'm from just outside Albany, New York,
so not terribly far from theBerkshires.

SPEAKER_05 (06:02):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (06:02):
Um well that's great.
So you you spent most of youryour childhood.

SPEAKER_05 (06:05):
Yes, I grew up, I would say I grew up in the
Berkshires, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (06:08):
Fantastic.
And did you enjoy it out there?

SPEAKER_05 (06:10):
Beautiful.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's just the best.
And like truly to be a wild,free, hippie child and run
around in the woods is somethingpossible, and also to be a weird
theater kid is also verypossible in the Berkshires.

SPEAKER_01 (06:24):
I love it.
Yeah.
And where did you catch theproverbial bug, as it were, for
storytelling?

SPEAKER_05 (06:30):
Right.
Yeah.
Um the tale goes that I was bornwith it, really.
Uh no, kind of came out.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Came out quoting Shakespeare andjust went from there.
She's a genius, she hasn't evenread it yet.
Whoa, osmosis.
Uh my um my grandparents used totake me around the neighborhood

(06:51):
as a very wee one, and I wouldintroduce them to everybody in
the neighborhood and ask if wecould go play in their backyard.
And that's where my mother saysmy very uncharacteristic uh
desire to sort of go for it andbe in the spotlight came from.
But I think um I recognized thatI wanted to do this
professionally when I was abouteight or nine years old.

(07:14):
Um, I was living in theBerkshires.
There was an amazing theatercompany called Shakespeare and
Company that was like 10 minutesfrom my house.
Yeah.
And they had a great summerprogram uh for kids.
So I was doing the Scottish playat age nine and going like this
is my jam.
Also in the school play was Jackand Jack and the Giant, the Jack

(07:35):
the Gentle Giant Killer.
Oh, yeah.
I got to play Jack the GentleGiant Killer.

SPEAKER_01 (07:39):
And then Gentle Giant Killer.

SPEAKER_05 (07:41):
I know, seems like a bit of an oxymoron, but that
therein lies the rub, right?
I love it.
So yeah.
Wait, I want to see that show.
Come on.
So fantastic.
And then was also in my firstindie feature that year.
So like all these things werehappening, and I was like, this
is it.
Yeah, this is the life.
Let's go.
Um and the and yeah, neverlooked back, really.

SPEAKER_01 (08:02):
Oh, that's awesome.
That's so wonderful.
Yeah.
And did you go and and did youlike, was there like a drama
club that you would like be apart of?
Did you do like any of thoseextracurriculars or something
like that?

SPEAKER_05 (08:12):
Or as many as I could fit in.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I often had an issue becauseShakespeare and Company would
run this great uh teen programin the spring for students in
the area, and the school wouldhave the musical on at the same
time, and I would try to do themboth.
Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 (08:31):
A terrible idea.
Did were you successful at atleast pulling it off, or was it
like just it was just too much?

SPEAKER_05 (08:39):
I think I did it one year and was like, I should
probably never do this again.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (08:43):
Fair enough.
Fair enough.
Well, we were that's kind offunny that you say that because
we were just talking before uhbefore we were recording about
like the notion of schedulingand all this stuff because we
both do audiobooks.
It's such a challenge.
It's that's that's a job in andof itself, is just the
scheduling of it all.
Like uh like for audiobooks andstuff like that.
It's you have to really breakdown your schedules and stuff.

(09:05):
Um well that's wonderful.
Shakespeare and Co.
Uh, when was like the decision Ithink I want to do this with my
life?
Did what did you make thatdecision pretty early on, or was
that something you had togradually get to?

SPEAKER_05 (09:20):
I I'm being a little facetious, but but that was the
moment that I really knew andand and told everybody.
And then it was sort of anuphill battle of convincing
those who supported me that thatit was something smart to go
for.
Sure.
Um, but you know, growing up inthat area, there was just an
unlimited uh series ofopportunities to take advantage

(09:42):
of creative development and andpre-professional development.

SPEAKER_02 (09:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (09:46):
And so then when time for uh university came, I
was sort of already decided thatI would be going to an acting
conservatory because that wasthe way to become an actor from
what I researched.

SPEAKER_01 (10:00):
Bury yourself in it, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (10:02):
Question that theory, listeners.
But but but that's what I knewat the time and had a lot of
great mentors and reallysupportive parents in in sort of
figuring that out.
And the compromise with my folkswas um they would help me
financially through school if Ialso got a liberal arts degree.
So so then it kind of narroweddown where I was looking.

SPEAKER_06 (10:22):
Sure.

SPEAKER_05 (10:22):
And I knew I'd I'd gone to um London as a part of a
choir trip when I was 13 or 14years old and stepped on the
ground and was like, this iswhere I belong.
Yeah.
And saw some theater while I wasthere and was like, oh, it's
better here.
It just felt more aligned.
There was something magicalabout it for me.

SPEAKER_02 (10:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (10:42):
And so I knew I wanted to get back to the UK.
So the way I made my list ofschools to apply to was which
ones have abroad programs in theUK.
I mean, kind of convoluted, butyeah, it did get me there.

SPEAKER_01 (10:54):
I'm sure it sort of narrows down, like you need a
liberal arts degree, you a placethat can also go overseas at
some point.
I mean, I'm sure that willnarrow it down to a certain
point.

SPEAKER_05 (11:04):
For those of us who have a hard time making choices,
yeah, it was a process ofelimination, and then and then
the real elimination was whowould take me as a student.

SPEAKER_01 (11:13):
And then you audition.

SPEAKER_05 (11:14):
Yeah.
Oh, right.
That part.
Yeah, that bit.
Um so so then I ended up atBoston University, um, which was
a great place to be, and likejust far enough away from home,
but not too far.
Yeah, yeah.
Uh a fantastic city to be astudent in.
Yeah, just great.

SPEAKER_01 (11:30):
Um going back a little bit, uh when you were
saying that like there was uhmaybe a little pushback from
from people who were trying tosupport you.
Are there any other people inyour family that are like
artists or kind of understandthis this world, this
entertainment world?

SPEAKER_05 (11:45):
I I mean I felt pretty alone as a performer.
I there's a lot of creatives inmy family, a lot of artists.
My brother and mother areceramic artists.

SPEAKER_02 (11:54):
Oh, awesome.

SPEAKER_05 (11:55):
Um, my uh my whole family's very creative.
Um and and I have an aunt anduncle who are in filmmaking, but
we never really as a youngperson connected over those
things.

SPEAKER_02 (12:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (12:08):
Um I don't know.
Maybe my my parents can be uhprivate people.
Sure.
Um and I think there was somewariness also about the
practicality of of thatdecision.
Of course.
Of course, yeah.
Um but no, I don't think uh inmy in my immediate family I had
a lot of direct exposure to theperforming arts.

SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
Yeah, gotcha.
Fascinating.
I love that.
I love hearing people's journeyto actually getting to like the
study of it all becauseeverybody's journey is
different.
Uh you know, I had some peoplein my grad school who didn't
study theater at all before theywent there.
And it's like I I'm just alwaysso fascinated by the decision
and like the follow-through.

SPEAKER_05 (12:50):
Well, and I should say, like, I think I think
you're right that there's lotsof pathways here.
And um in hindsight, I had areally creative, you know,
artist's upbringing.
I had an artist's vocabulary andpoint of view from um from both
of my parents, and also I wentto a Waldorf school as a young
person, which is an incrediblycreative private education.

(13:13):
Okay.
Um that's very holistic in itsstyle.
And so we would we would do aplay every year.
Yeah.
And in that program, one of myclassmates' fathers was a
professional actor who, RobertBiggs, who ended up becoming a
mentor of mine, and uh actuallyprobably was my gateway into
puppetry, which I think alsopuppetry.

SPEAKER_00 (13:32):
I missed puppetry.
I didn't say puppetry in thebeginning.
That's she does puppetrypuppetry.

SPEAKER_05 (13:36):
I like puppets too.
She likes puppets.
Um but no, I don't know.
It's it when I I'm really intothat stuff, and when I think
about it, I I think because amaybe of a slightly more
unconventional seating ofcreativity, there's an interest
in that form of storytelling orart making as well.

SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (13:52):
Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (13:53):
Especially the past couple of years, I feel like the
past decade in particular,puppetry within the theater
community.
I think it's really awesome.
Like some of the stuff, like Imean, I think the most obvious
example is like Warhorse, whichI think was the thing that
really, I think, probably gavepupp puppetry uh more of a I
don't want to say a legitimacy,it's always had a legitimacy,
but something that people reallyview as like, oh, this is a

(14:17):
really great way of tellingstories and can add so much to
the story.

SPEAKER_05 (14:21):
I think it did kind of do that thing of like we we
as actors talk about like legitwork.
It did definitely capital Llegit puppets, right?

SPEAKER_01 (14:28):
It's like so much.
You have a legit agent.
It's not just Sesame Street andAvenue Q anymore.
Like, yeah.
Oh, I loved Avenue Q as a kid,though.
Brilliant puppetry.
Brilliant.
And also just like in a way thatyou would never expect.
Totally.
Like taking, you know, whatmight be presumed a child-like
form and having them curse andfuck and be subversive with a

(14:50):
literally fuck.
Totally.

SPEAKER_04 (14:52):
Yeah, puppets fucking.
That's a big thing.
Yeah, that's a big thing.

SPEAKER_01 (14:55):
Did you see Hand to God?

SPEAKER_04 (14:56):
I haven't seen Hand to God.

SPEAKER_01 (14:58):
Oh my god, I saw it twice when it was on Broad.
I loved it.
Yeah.
Um, actually, funnily enough, ifI I don't know if I've told this
story, but I it was one of mypieces to get into grad school.
I did Hand to God.
I made my own little puppet.
Yes.
Um, I'm looking around the roomas if I like nearby.
I don't know where uh my puppetsare.
I see a mask.
I mean it's possible.
I converted him into a catpuppet later for another show I

(15:19):
was doing.

SPEAKER_05 (15:19):
So um actor, a real transformative actor.

SPEAKER_01 (15:22):
Oh yeah, yeah, my hand.
Um so you went to BU.

SPEAKER_05 (15:26):
Yes.
I got a great education.
It's an incredibly well-roundededucation um with a lot of
opportunity to carve your ownpathway and and decide who you
want to be as an artist and disand sort of discover that.
Yeah.
Um and and actually a puppetstory from a sock puppet story

(15:47):
from BU.
I I chose Britton and I bothwere acting majors.
So there's two choices for theconservatory.
You can either be acting ortheater arts, or at least this
is how it was when we werethere.
Um and theater arts is a bitmore uh devising-based.
Folks who are maybemultidisciplinary in some way um

(16:07):
might choose that.
And acting is much more the sortof uh standard old school um UK
French-based acting conservatorytraining.
Um and I didn't know at the timethat I had ADHD, but something
in me really knew that I neededthe structure in order to be
free.

SPEAKER_01 (16:23):
Sure.
Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 (16:24):
So that's where the choice came from.
Uh and we had a final projectwhere we would do 10 different
pieces and they each had to fitinto a certain structure.
Um, you know, one piece from uhShakespeare, one piece from um
modern American theater, onepiece that was a monologue, one
that was a blah blah blah.
Yeah.

(16:44):
Um and so for my Shakespearepiece, I did uh white and black
sock puppet Othello.

SPEAKER_00 (16:51):
Othello Iago scene.
Oh my god.
So, you know, I love that.

SPEAKER_05 (16:56):
Even then the sock puppets were having a moment, at
least at Boston University.

SPEAKER_01 (17:00):
That's kind of brilliant.

SPEAKER_05 (17:01):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 (17:02):
And I thought so.
Yes.

SPEAKER_05 (17:04):
Yeah, and then I'm really proud of this.
And then I was like, and then Ilike viciously ripped them off
my hands and went into an Iagomonologue and was like, yes,
wait, that's so creative.

SPEAKER_01 (17:13):
I love that.
Wait, that's really, reallycool.

SPEAKER_05 (17:15):
It was it was fun.
They were really good aboutgiving us creative space.

SPEAKER_01 (17:17):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Oh, that's awesome.
Now, to during your time at BU,you said you went to Lambda.
Like that was that that was thestudy abroad.

SPEAKER_05 (17:24):
That was one of the study abroad options that the
acting major was encouraged todo.
Sure.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (17:29):
And you you took that, yes?

SPEAKER_05 (17:31):
And I sure did.
That was the whole reason I wasthere.

SPEAKER_01 (17:33):
Oh my god, I love it.
So wait, so it forgive me if I'mif I'm losing track a little
bit.
Because you went to Lambda, butyou also did the old Vic the the
That's right.

SPEAKER_05 (17:43):
So that was a graduate program.
Old Vic was uh grad school.
And um definitely found my wayback there because of my study
abroad.
Yeah.
Nice.

SPEAKER_01 (17:53):
And how much time between like BU and and choosing
uh the old Vic, well like howmuch time had passed?
What was the what was thedecision behind that?
Because that can be verydifferent for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_05 (18:05):
It definitely is.
I think it's really personal.
And I think one of the thingsI'm proud of in my grad school
application process is that I Ilearned that choosing to go to
school in the first place, butchoosing to go back to school as
well for further graduate degreeum is is for me, right?

(18:25):
Is I I have personal reasonsthat I'm choosing to do that.
And so things you want to workon.
I'm auditioning the schools,right?
Versus versus the opposite,which is you know also true.

SPEAKER_01 (18:35):
They're trying to find the right fit, but that
that is I think you should saythat again because uh honestly,
because that that was I wishsomeone had said that to me.
Yeah.
Because it it it can be verydaunting to to go and audition
for these big schools.
Yeah.
And you're auditioning them justas much as they're auditioning
you.

SPEAKER_05 (18:53):
Right.
And I think I think what Ilearned from BU is as solid as
the education was, and as manyamazing people as I was in that
program with, it there were manythings about it that weren't
quite the right fit for me.
But I was so keen to be uh in aconservatory program, and just I
was very in a people-pleasingspace in my life, of course, and

(19:14):
was like, you know, pick me,pick me.
And uh they did, and I went,wee, yes, of course.
You you checked all those boxes,so here we go.
Um but I didn't really take thetime to go, does this feel
right?
Yeah.
And and so my process of pickinga graduate school um came from a
moment in my life where I wasdeeply unsatisfied with the

(19:38):
shape of it.

SPEAKER_02 (19:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (19:39):
Um, and yearning, like regularly in tears,
yearning for the UK.
Just really missing being thereand and the the people there,
the culture there, theespecially uh culture with a
capital C around theater makingand the arts.

SPEAKER_01 (19:57):
Um London is just such a fucking great city, too.
It's the awesome.

SPEAKER_05 (20:03):
Yeah, yeah.
So I was just like, everythingfeels more right there.
Yeah, it feels more aligned withwhat I want, uh, especially as
an artist.
And how do I get back there?
That's that's the question.
So then I started to look at UKgraduate programs and did some
another another hot tip forthose thinking about graduate

(20:24):
school.
Hot tip, coming to right, folks.
Come in.
Um shop the schools, go visitthem, do a short course.
I did like weekend and week-longcourses at maybe two or three of
the schools I was interested ingoing to.
Oh, it's a great idea.
Some interviews with grads andinterviews with faculty at other
ones.

SPEAKER_06 (20:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (20:43):
Um and then kind of had a magical experience of
getting into graduate school.
That's great.
Happy to tell you about if youwant to.
Please, I love I love hearingpeople's stories.
I knew that I was looking atthese schools.
I'd sort of made a short list.
I had a fantastic experience atBristol Old Vic.
I did uh musical theater singingcourse.
Oh, fun.
It was very fun.
Um which like singing was umscared me a little bit at that

(21:05):
time.
Oh, yeah.
Still does, actually, to behonest.
But I was like, yo, okay, I'mgonna do this because it's
scary.
Yeah.
And I was the only uh person whowas interested in the school for
another reason who was there.
Yeah.
So they kind of figured that outabout me in that week.
And they were like, well, whydon't you sit down with the
person who runs the master'sprogram?
And I had a nice little chatwith him and we met, and I I

(21:25):
really got to get a feel of thespace and the place for myself.

SPEAKER_02 (21:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (21:29):
Um and then I came back to Massachusetts, and a
friend of mine who I'd metthrough Williamstown Theater
Festival had graduated.
You went to Williamstown aswell.

SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
Oh my god, we had so much to talk about.
Oh my god, were you anapprentice?

SPEAKER_05 (21:45):
Yes, were you?
Yeah.
Oh my god, should we talk aboutthat weekend on this podcast?

SPEAKER_01 (21:49):
I've talked about it.
Trust me, I've had at leastthree other people have talked
about Williamstown apprentice.
We we hold nothing back.

SPEAKER_05 (21:56):
Another experience that was like maybe not great in
and of itself.
But led to many, many greatthings.

SPEAKER_01 (22:02):
I would agree with that for myself as well.
Like a lot of like it wasgrueling.

SPEAKER_05 (22:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (22:08):
Um, I I got lucky when I was there that I was
like, I got cast in the cabaret,so I had something I got to
every week.

SPEAKER_05 (22:16):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (22:17):
Because there was no guarantee of performing.
Sure was not.
There wasn't.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, which is I I've said this somany times before, but I think
every I'm gonna say this rightinto the camera.
If you're an educationalinstitution, you need to have
parameters around how many timespeople get to perform.
I hate the bullshit excuse of,well, in the real world,

(22:38):
rejection is a big thing.
Fuck you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Fuck you.
This is an educationalinstitution.
People need to build up theirreps so that the real world,
they'll learn about rejection inthe real world.
We all learn about it.

SPEAKER_05 (22:49):
Is pay to play and how it's fake system.

SPEAKER_01 (22:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's so true.
Um but hey, let's go.
Uh finish finish your first one,and then we we can talk more
about Williamstown.

SPEAKER_05 (23:02):
That's great.
Yeah, so so I I felt really umtaken care of, wanted heard
included in even that shortmoment, and was like, I have a
good feeling about this.

SPEAKER_02 (23:15):
Good.

SPEAKER_05 (23:15):
Moved back to Mass, connected with a friend who'd
gone to the program who I knewthrough Williamstown.

SPEAKER_02 (23:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (23:21):
And she was like, hey, you know, they're having
their New York New Yorkauditions uh in like a week or
two.
You could just come to New YorkCity and just, you know, sit
down again with the person andjust refresh your face to them
and like, you know, make thatconnection.
And at the time I was like, ohno, I can't, I I could never do
that.
That's just like wildly erraticand unplanned.

(23:44):
And what am I thinking?
Um tells you a lot about whatI'm my brain is like this day is
like take a bus from WesternMass to New York City, you'll be
fine.
Hell yeah.
Um and so I had this dream thatthat Kim Durham, who was running
the program at the time, uh, satdown with me for a coffee and
was like, you know, would youlike to audition right now?
We're ready for you.

SPEAKER_06 (24:05):
Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_05 (24:06):
And I was like, um, sure.
Which was very uncharacteristicat the time because I didn't
even want to get on the bus andgo to New York City.
So I don't know why I said yes.
And the dream I said yes.
And I did a Rosalind piece fromAs You Like It.
Of course.
And I oh oh oh they had a singand I did a sound of music
piece, and I I don't rememberwhat the other contemporary.

(24:28):
Oh no, it was it was a CQQuintana piece from Scissoring.
What is oh from C CQ Quintana?
Do you know?
No, I don't think they're anamazing playwright.
Oh no, I'll have them allplayers.

SPEAKER_02 (24:38):
I'll look them up.

SPEAKER_05 (24:39):
Um and who I met at Williamstown.
I'm at CQ.
Yeah, see good things, goodpeople.
See, it's true.

SPEAKER_01 (24:45):
There are a lot of metal.
They got a lot of good stufffrom that.
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 (24:48):
Yeah, and they got a lot of free labor.
Yeah, paid paid for labor.
Okay.
So can't believe it.

SPEAKER_01 (24:54):
I look back on it now, and I'm just like so
embarrassed by it.

SPEAKER_05 (24:57):
But isn't it also gratifying that we've come
around to this place where likeit's like it's like oh goodness?

SPEAKER_01 (25:01):
Yeah, yeah.
And they were like, yeah, no, weyou can't do that.
That was not okay.
It's not okay.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (25:06):
Our bad.
We were wrong.
It feels good.
It feels good.

SPEAKER_01 (25:10):
It does.

SPEAKER_05 (25:11):
Um, so in the dream, I do all these pieces, and Kim
is like, that was great.
Would you like to come to theschool?
Wow, she offered it right in.
What?
Yeah.
And I was like, okay, well,that's a dream.
So fuck yeah.
And then I was like, Yes, and Inever woke up again.
I'm still there right now.

(25:32):
Um the coin is it no, it's a topand the um so we my friend was
like, well, just come and alsomaybe like have a monologue.
So I emailed Kim and he waslike, Yeah, let's go, let's go
get coffee.
That sounds great.
Monday.

SPEAKER_01 (25:51):
You're like, Are you gonna ask me to audition for
you?
Oh no.

SPEAKER_05 (25:54):
Well, so then he goes, he's like, So, like, are
are you thinking that you mightwant to audition for the program
next year?
And I was like, Yeah, that's mythought.
He's like, You wouldn't have tohave anything with you today,
would you?
Because we have an open slot.
We just happen to have an openslot in like two hours.
I I that might be too much.
I understand if you don't havethings together and it's too
fast.
He's like, but if you'd like.

(26:16):
And I was like, holy shit, yes.
Okay, all right, I gotta dothis, do this, girl, do this.
And so I did it.

SPEAKER_01 (26:23):
Did you tell them in that moment?

SPEAKER_05 (26:25):
I just had a dream where you literally, I don't
know if I've ever told Kim this.
I might have told him, I don'tknow.
But but much later, after I gotinto the course.

SPEAKER_01 (26:33):
Whoa, that's wild.

SPEAKER_05 (26:34):
The pieces, the notes he gave me in my dream
were the notes he gave me in theaudition.

SPEAKER_01 (26:40):
Stop it.

SPEAKER_05 (26:41):
I can't.
It's real.
I also had a prophetic dreamabout a snowplow, actually.
Be but that's a different thing.
But okay.

SPEAKER_01 (26:48):
So a totally separate dream.
I was the snowplow.

SPEAKER_05 (26:52):
Same witchcraft, different character.
Um, and so I did the auditionand he was like, This is our
first stop, so I can'tofficially say anything, but I
think you'd be a really greatfit for this program.
Oh my god.
Can you work on getting yourfinances together to come over?
Because I think that would begreat.
And I was like, this hasliterally never happened to me.

(27:13):
I was at such a low point, my myself-esteem was so, so low.
And I was just like, it justfelt like a trick or like just
totally fake and but alsocompletely aligned, which I'm
learning more now.
It was this like intuitive sensethat um has been so so helpful
in my creative career that Ijust completely distrusted at

(27:36):
that time in my life.
Yeah.
And it was the first real ping.
I mean, maybe the chorus trip toLondon when I was 13 was the
first real ping.
But it was the first sort oflike, oh, I'm supposed to be
here.
This feels right.
And instead of this like highlyanxious, frenetic experience, I
suddenly felt super grounded.
I was like, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 (27:54):
Yeah.

(28:35):
Grad school was extremelyrehabilitating for me as well.
Yeah.
I I it was, you know, it was Ihad like many years where I
wasn't really working that much,or was just getting jobs that
like weren't really, you know,what I was looking to do, and
and or was just like notterribly fulfilling, or just not
paid enough, or yeah, you know,so many things.
Um I was working as a dogwalker, and like that was

(28:56):
exhausting.
And just like yeah, just likegetting into this program that
here here's a little story I'lltell.
And then maybe this is just likevery grandiose or whatever, or
or just like so when I was akid, there was a show I watched,
I'm sure you've all heard of it.
It's called Dexter, starringMichael C.
Hall.

(29:17):
Yeah, it's about uh uhaltruistic serial killer, I
guess you could say is what it'sabout.
He kills only bad people, but itMichael C.
Hall was the lead of this show.
They've had a couple ofspinoffs, uh, and I just loved
his performance.
I thought he was just fuckingamazing.

SPEAKER_00 (29:33):
Incredible.

SPEAKER_01 (29:33):
I was like, oh, where like where did this guy
study or whatever?
I'm like 13 at the time, andthat's when I found out about
Tish and NYU.
Yeah, um, and then many yearslater, after I got in, I got to
meet him and told him that, andhe was just so nice and sweet.
Um, and I don't know, I I Iguess I say this to say, like,
some things are a little bitkismet.

(29:54):
Like, if you're connecting tosomething, yes, really do the
research on why you connect withit.
Yes.
And now that I say that, I'mlike, he was playing a serial
killer.
What does that say about me?
Um, but there was somethingabout his performance.
He just was so he clearlyunderstood the parameters of
this character, and like therewas something about it that made

(30:16):
me go, I need to pursue that.
And it was just a wildexperience to be like accepted
at that school, and I was like,oh yeah, even back then, I I
sensed something about coming tothis place was right there.

SPEAKER_05 (30:29):
It's it is this deeper uh animalistic knowledge
that you have of your ownsensibilities aligning with what
the how this person is exploringstorytelling.
Yeah, it's like, and and maybeyou don't have all the words for
that or all the experience toadd all that up, but there's
something in you that is deeplyintelligent.
Yeah, like like recognizes like,right?

(30:50):
You're like, oh, this is we I amof this thing.
Yeah.
And and I I listened to JonathanGroff recently on on Amy Polar.
Jonathan Groff.
Oh, on Amy Polar.
I love Amy Polar.
Yeah, oh my gosh.
And that that episode isfantastic.
But he was talking about hisexperience in Spring Awakening
and how he sort of he he had aconversation with the director

(31:10):
where he was like, I think itwas during the audition process,
he was like, please give me thisopportunity because I know how
good I can be, even though I'mnot that good yet.
Oh, and he and he was like, andI I meant that.
Like I knew that I could growinto this thing.
And it was he's like, I feellike I've gotten there, but I'm
paraphrasing, but like but likebut I wasn't there.
Yeah, and and I was like, oh mygosh, that feeling.

(31:31):
Like I so recognize that of likethis is subjective what we do.
Yeah.
But you can see what you thinkis great and and know that you
have a way to find your paththere, even if you don't know
what that way is.

SPEAKER_01 (31:44):
Here's a question.

SPEAKER_05 (31:45):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (31:46):
Is connection subjective or objective?

SPEAKER_05 (31:51):
Give me more than that.

SPEAKER_01 (31:52):
I don't know.
I it's just a qu it's a questionthat really just came into my
head right now of just likewell, I had this subjectively,
like so going back to Dexter.
Yeah.
Subjectively, I watched the showand was like, I think this show
is great.
It's good.

SPEAKER_03 (32:06):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (32:07):
I'm connecting with it somehow.

SPEAKER_03 (32:09):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (32:10):
And then and then many years later, I got into a
school that that this personalso went to.
And like I connected with that,and that was somewhat objective
in a way.
Like like my my body and mymind, so I don't even know where
this question is going.
But there, I'm like, that is anI think there's something in

(32:33):
that.
Is connection subjective orobjective?

SPEAKER_05 (32:36):
Yeah, I I wonder whether I guess it's both.
I guess I guess I feel like thisgoes into the the the nature and
nurture space.
Yeah, yeah.
And that and that so I Irecently narrated a book about
brains, about neuroscience.
Oh god, wow.
Oh god.

SPEAKER_01 (32:57):
I'm sure it was very enlightening.

SPEAKER_05 (32:59):
It was very enlightening.
It's called The Fox, The Shrew,and You.
Oh.
And uh forgive me, I cannotremember the author's name.
Somebody very smart, very smartneuroscientist.
Um but the the thesis of thebook is um looking at uh all
animals throughout all ofEarth's history's brains and how

(33:22):
that led to how the human brainhas specialized and developed to
be this amazing machine foradaptation, sensory awareness,
mostly through the sense ofsight as the primary driver.
Yeah, and the like ability toperceive on many levels what

(33:44):
we're picking up around us, andthen translate that in a very
short amount of time to what itmeans for us to do to survive.

SPEAKER_02 (33:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (33:52):
Um in a very subjective way, because the
other creatures that we'reinteracting with are subjective.
So it is both, I guess,objective in the sense of it's a
scientific process, yeah, buthighly subjective in that it's
there's it's idiosyncraticallydifferent for every single
person every single time.

SPEAKER_02 (34:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (34:10):
Um, and they did this uh wild study on cab
drivers in London because thestreets of London are so mad.
Yeah, just for years they trainwalking, scooters, bikes to get
a mind map of the streets ofLondon so that they, you know,
hypothetically pre-GPS.
I don't know, but they're notrelying on that system, right?
They know.
And it changed their brainchemistry and it changed the way

(34:32):
that their brain works so thatthey became like super experts
at geographic location.
Yeah.
Their brain started tounderstand spatial awareness in
a way that most human brainsjust don't.

SPEAKER_02 (34:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (34:45):
And that was an example of how quickly we adapt
to things, how specialized wecan get, and then how quickly we
lose that when we're not payingattention.
So I come back around to this.

SPEAKER_01 (34:55):
Or if when you replace it with something else
like a phone that can just tellyou this information.
And it's like, okay, well, nowI'm dumber.
Or not as intuitive.

SPEAKER_05 (35:03):
Yes.
And so that's my point is that Ithink the it is both subjective
and objective.
Connections, when you when youpay attention to them, it
becomes more an objective partof your scientific process as a
creature to notice them, tofollow them, to align yourself
with them.
You're programming yourself todo that.
And as actors, we are trainingour systems to be emotionally

(35:26):
intelligent.
Yeah.
So we are actually objectivelymuch better at that,
hypothetically, if we're goodactors over over a long process
of time.
Yeah.
Um, it's a muscle.
We grow the muscle.
Yeah.
And we probably have some innateinclination toward it to begin
with.
Maybe that drew us toward thething.
But there's subjectivity is theentire you know, ground rule for

(35:49):
that whole thing.
Like that, that's it's allsubjective.

unknown (35:52):
Wow.

SPEAKER_05 (35:53):
So it's a yes and.

SPEAKER_01 (35:54):
My my mind.
Wow.
I could listen to you talk aboutthat for ages.
Okay, so well let's let's goback then to um so you went
through the old Vic program.
Yes.
What was it like getting out ofthere?
And when did you come back?
Did you come right back to theU.S.
after that?
Right.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (36:13):
I mean, I I tried to game the system and stay as long
as I could.
And actually, at the time that Iwas at Bristol, uh, we had this
amazing teacher, Kate Siebert,who lives here in New York, who
is an amazing actress andfantastic acting coach, and also
business of acting coach.
And so she facilitated ourentrance into wherever we were

(36:33):
going in the globe because oneof the great parts of my program
is that it was international.
Oh, great.
So everybody was from all overthe world in my course.
Which was very cool.
Yeah.
And also has challenges on theprofessional side of things.
Because we don't necessarilygraduate with a network.
Um, we're not graduating intothe industry that we trained in,
right?
We don't have the connectionsthat Tish has, we don't have the

(36:55):
connections that Yale School ofDrama has.
I mean, we we do, but we legallycan't work in the country that
we have them for most of us.

SPEAKER_01 (37:02):
That is a very astute observation.
I never even thought about that.
Right.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (37:06):
And so, but Kate did.
She was on it because she wasactually a graduate, American
graduate of the program.
And so she facilitated ashowcase for us here in New York
and also a lot of great umprofessional entry points uh
here in the city and continuesto foster that community here.

SPEAKER_02 (37:21):
Right.

SPEAKER_05 (37:22):
However, so so long story long, she encouraged us to
come to the US to get headshotsif we were gonna work in the US,
which is a great piece ofadvice.
So I'd come back to the US toget headshots after our classes
ended.
Um our showcase was severalmonths later, and my visa also
expired several months later.
So then promptly jetted rightback over to the UK and

(37:46):
basically stayed out as long asI could and booked an audiobook
with Audible UK.
Oh, nice.
And recorded on the last threedays of my visa.

(38:18):
So if there were pickups, that'stoo bad.

SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
I never got better hope and pray that we got it
right the first time.

SPEAKER_05 (38:25):
Yeah, correct.
Um just edit the book.

SPEAKER_01 (38:28):
Right.

SPEAKER_05 (38:30):
Yeah, exactly.
So that was that was thatexperience.
And then unfortunately, I mygrandmother was on her way out
of this world and she lived inNew Jersey, and I wanted to be
there for that.
So that was a a good reason tocome home.

SPEAKER_02 (38:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (38:43):
Um, and then kind of against my will, was like, well,
I guess I gotta make New Yorkwork.

SPEAKER_01 (38:47):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (38:48):
And it's been the best thing that ever happened to
me.

SPEAKER_01 (38:50):
Good.
I'm glad.
I know this city is fuckingawesome.

SPEAKER_00 (38:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (38:56):
This is Yes, No, and sometimes why.
This is where I ask three roundsof rapid fire, yes or no
questions to Gail.
And whenever my interest ispiqued, I'll just ask why
intermittently.
And she'll answer.
So here we go.
Okay.
Are you ready to go?
I'm ready.
Here we go.
Oh, and all these questions weresourced from you guessed it,

(39:17):
teambuilding.com.
Wow.
Let's go, team.
Yes, team building.
Round one.
You ready, Gail?
Yes.
Here we go.
Do you like spiders?

SPEAKER_05 (39:26):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (39:27):
Why?

SPEAKER_05 (39:28):
Oh, I just Charlotte's Webb, really.
Really?
Yeah, that's probably the reasonwhy.

SPEAKER_01 (39:32):
Okay.
But that's the one.
That's the first time though.
Oh, I think I've done a why onthe first one.
Oh, that's probably not true.
I don't know.
But a lot of people say no tothat.

SPEAKER_05 (39:39):
Oh, I know.
I know, but they're justfascinating magical creatures
and they take care of us.
Yeah, they really do.
Beautiful.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (39:44):
They're incredible.
Have you ever been to summercamp?

SPEAKER_03 (39:47):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (39:47):
Do you have an imaginary friend?

SPEAKER_03 (39:49):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (39:49):
Have you ever caught a fish?

SPEAKER_03 (39:51):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (39:53):
Why?
And what happened?

SPEAKER_05 (39:55):
Um uh we used to go fishing at my grandparents'
place.
They had a little like lakenearby.
Oh.
And I was quite young, and Idon't know, maybe seven or
eight.
And I was a bad fisher.
Like I was really hard.
And my brother was like reallygood.
My brother's like very good ateverything.
And he would always catch afish.
He'd be like, yeah, and like I'mstrong.

(40:17):
And I'd be like, oh, I suck atfishing.
And then one day I caught one.
And I don't know what I thoughtwas gonna happen.
Like I'd watched him catch afish.
Like, but I think I thought itwas gonna be like in the
cartoons or something where itwas just like on the string, but
it was it's still alive when youcatch it.
Oh, yeah.
And it was like flailing around.
It was like a hook stuff.
And like and then and then mypop was like, okay, now you

(40:38):
gotta like take the hook out ofits mouth.
And I was and I just freakedout.
And they lived on top of thishill.
And I literally dropped thething and ran all the way back
up to their house and was like,I'm never fishing again.
And I don't think I have since.

SPEAKER_01 (40:52):
Well, see, that's the trouble with cartoons, you
know.
Sometimes it like what because Ithought the same thing for a lot
that they were just like, oh,they're hanging on because
they're still eating the thingthat you put on the bait, you
know.
Without a snack and then they'llbe on the room.
Oh no, it's like you've piercedtheir skin with a torture.
I know, poor, poor things.
Are you an only child?

SPEAKER_05 (41:11):
No.

SPEAKER_01 (41:11):
Do you work full-time?

SPEAKER_05 (41:13):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (41:13):
Do you like your job?

SPEAKER_05 (41:14):
What does that question mean?
Can I ask class why?

SPEAKER_01 (41:17):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (41:18):
How do we define that?

SPEAKER_01 (41:19):
That I you know, that is a great question.
I think it's a it's a nine tofive question.
Uh-huh.
You know, like I think that's aquestion for nine to fivers.
Okay.
You know, and as artists, that'ssuch an abstract concept.
Or I guess it's not an abstractcontract, but a concept.
Right.
It's just a distant concept, Ifeel like, because we work just

(41:43):
weird hours whenever we'recalled or whatever.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (41:47):
Yeah.
Well, it's in that'sinteresting.
I I sometimes do structure mydays as much.
Well, it depends.
It depends phases of my life.
I've tried.

SPEAKER_01 (41:56):
Yeah.
I've given it a good go.
I love it.
Are you married?

SPEAKER_05 (42:02):
No.

SPEAKER_01 (42:03):
Do you have kids?

SPEAKER_03 (42:04):
No.

SPEAKER_01 (42:04):
Do you drive?

SPEAKER_03 (42:05):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (42:06):
Do you know how to cook?

SPEAKER_03 (42:07):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (42:08):
Have you ever had stitches?

SPEAKER_03 (42:09):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (42:10):
Why?

SPEAKER_03 (42:12):
Uh uh wisdom teeth.

SPEAKER_05 (42:15):
Oh.

SPEAKER_01 (42:16):
Yeah.
Oh, God.
I might have to get mine out.
Oh.
They they apparently well, likemy dentist said the two of them
are are looking like they'recoming in.
And I'm like, Really?
Now?
Now?
That's what I was saying.
I was like, I thought that waslike for for when you're
younger.
I thought it was past it.

SPEAKER_05 (42:32):
I got them out in high school.

SPEAKER_01 (42:33):
My brother got them out in high school.
He got four of them out.
Yeah, me too.
All four?
Awful.
Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 (42:38):
Awful.
And Per Cassette, worse.
Worse.
And then I chose to watch TheTenth Kingdom, which is the
trippiest series you've everseen.
And Pan's Labyrinth.

SPEAKER_00 (42:49):
Why are you watching all these?
And the science of sleep.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I was a very pretentious17-year-old.

SPEAKER_05 (42:56):
And I was like, yeah, I don't know.
But it was a it was not a goodtime.

SPEAKER_01 (43:01):
Oh my god.
Well, that's the end of roundone.
Perfect.
Okay.
How are we feeling?
How are we feeling?
Great.
I love this.
Good.
Okay, great.
Here we go.
The questions get progressivelyharder, quote unquote.

SPEAKER_05 (43:12):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (43:13):
Um, third round is existential.
Oh, I'm great.

SPEAKER_05 (43:16):
I'm already ready.

SPEAKER_01 (43:17):
Round two.
Ready?
Yeah.
Here we go.
Do you have any hobbies?
Yeah.
Do you believe in ghosts?
Yes.
Are you watching any new TVshows at the moment?

SPEAKER_03 (43:25):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (43:26):
Have you ever been in a band?

SPEAKER_03 (43:28):
Um, yes.

SPEAKER_01 (43:30):
Why?

SPEAKER_03 (43:31):
Why have I been in a band?
Yeah, why?
Because uh Yeah, sometimes it'sfunny.

SPEAKER_01 (43:36):
I'm like, it probably should be yes, no, and
sometimes why and what and allthe other details.

SPEAKER_05 (43:41):
Um yeah, uh why is actually because my uh writing
partner now, we we write scriptstogether.
Um when we were in grad schooltogether, we were looking for a
quiet way to connect, I think,really is what it was.
Um and we were also bothlearning instruments.

(44:02):
Uh they were learning guitar andI was learning ukulele and we
were we were singing so fun, andwe were like, let's do some
covers.
And then we started to playmusic in the morning before our
our warm-up.
So we'd get there like superearly at school and we'd play
music, and people kept walkingthrough being like, We really
like your music.
And like, and then we started towrite some original songs, and

(44:22):
then the um sound tutor atBristol Old Vic, Andy Jenks,
recorded an album for us.
Whoa.
Um, so we graduated with alittle folk album.

SPEAKER_01 (44:31):
That's awesome.
And this was only uh this is uhstarted at your time at grad
school.

SPEAKER_05 (44:35):
This was in grad school.
We were called the Strange BadFellows.
You can find us on umSoundCloud.
Um my god, I'm definitelylooking at it.
And uh, but Kaya lives inAustralia, and so it was
difficult to continue makingmusic, so that's why we started
writing.
So I love that.
There we go.

SPEAKER_01 (44:50):
And they're still out in Australia now and based
in Melbourne at the moment.

SPEAKER_05 (44:53):
Yeah.
Oh my god.
Wow, that's very cool.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (44:57):
Have you ever done stand up comedy?

SPEAKER_05 (44:59):
Uh no.

SPEAKER_01 (45:01):
Why?
I'll ask why.

SPEAKER_05 (45:03):
I I just think it's the it's the hardest, most
terrifying performing art.

SPEAKER_01 (45:08):
Yeah.
It is.
I tried it once and it's reallyit's so nerve-wracking to be up
there on your own.
Because like if you bomb or ifyou're just like you get lost,
you're good.
You're lost.

SPEAKER_05 (45:22):
Although I will say, Mae Martin, I saw them perform
last week, and and they broughta whole new meeting to not all
who wander are lost in astand-up set.
I mean, they like brought usevery which way around and back
through who knows where.

SPEAKER_00 (45:37):
But it all came together.

SPEAKER_05 (45:38):
And it all came together, and it seemed like
maybe there was a plan and alsono plan.
And it was, they're just genius.

SPEAKER_01 (45:44):
I love that.
Yeah.
Do you speak more than onelanguage?

SPEAKER_05 (45:47):
No.

SPEAKER_01 (45:48):
Do you know how to code?

unknown (45:50):
No.

SPEAKER_05 (45:51):
That's the same question, though, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 (45:54):
You know, it kind of is.
Actually, yeah.
Depending on your answer.
I mean, coding is absolutely itsown language.
Um, that's funny.
Are your brothers and sistersannoying?

SPEAKER_05 (46:04):
Yes.
Love you.
Um, because they're my brothers.
Yes.
Do you just have brothers?
I just have two little brothers.
Two little brothers.
Little brothers.
I mean, come on.
You have to.
If you're a little are you alittle brother?

SPEAKER_01 (46:17):
I am a little brother.
You have to be annoying, right?
It's it's like on the tin.
You gotta do it.
Yeah, it's in it's inherent,it's a dominant trait.
That's right.
That's right.
Um Do your parents everembarrass you?
Yes.
Do you have a favorite dinosaur?

SPEAKER_05 (46:30):
Ooh.
I mean, Sarah, the triceratopsfrom Land Before Time.
Oh my god, yes.

SPEAKER_01 (46:39):
Very specific.
Okay, then let me ask you why.
Why Sarah from The Land BeforeTime?

SPEAKER_05 (46:45):
Like, yeah, she just got this little personality.
She kind of reminds me of my dogwho's a French bulldog.

SPEAKER_01 (46:51):
Oh my god, I love it.

SPEAKER_05 (46:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (46:53):
We'll end round two on that one.
Sarah the baddie.
Um, all right, round three.
We ready?
Yes.
This is where we get these areexistential.

SPEAKER_03 (47:02):
Oh.

SPEAKER_01 (47:03):
This is where you get a little crazy.
These are less yes and no.
These will probably just promptdiscussion.

SPEAKER_03 (47:10):
Great.

SPEAKER_01 (47:11):
Would you want to be a millionaire if it meant you
never found true love?

SPEAKER_03 (47:16):
No.

SPEAKER_01 (47:17):
Let me let me let me ask that one again, actually.

SPEAKER_05 (47:20):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (47:21):
Would you want to be a billionaire if it meant you
would never find true love?

SPEAKER_05 (47:25):
Definitely not.

SPEAKER_01 (47:27):
You're doubling down even then.

SPEAKER_05 (47:29):
I would think about the millionaire thing.
I would definitely not want tobe a billionaire.

SPEAKER_01 (47:32):
I know.
It's like, what's the point?

SPEAKER_05 (47:33):
Too much responsibility and and no
ethics.
No, no, I mean maybe like Iguess you could argue about like
if I had that money and then Icould give it away in in good
ways, maybe.
Sure, sure.
Like using it to funds.
Self-sacrificial for my taste.

SPEAKER_01 (47:47):
I totally I hear that.

unknown (47:49):
God.

SPEAKER_01 (47:49):
There's just no excuse for it anymore.

SPEAKER_05 (47:51):
Oh god, no.
Let's get rid of them.
That's my point.
Nobody should be.
No, that's that's my feelingtoo.

SPEAKER_01 (47:57):
There is absolutely no justifying the thing.
And we need way more love.
So I'm on team love.
Absolutely right now.
Do you think justice reallyexists?

SPEAKER_05 (48:06):
Yeah.
Yes, I do.
Is it served often?
No.
Um but I I think I I do think umwe have we have the concept of
it for a reason.
And um many of us have analigned sense of of what is uh

(48:30):
what is right, what is good.
And when when we work togetherand we work with systems that
work, um we can see that tofruition.
It does I again, I don't thinkit happens very often, but I do
think it happens.

SPEAKER_01 (48:43):
I think too, like, I agree.
I I think too sometimes thenotion of justice and karma are
sometimes conflated with eachother.
And it's like I think it's I'vebeen watching a lot of
documentaries recently.
Cool, yes.
I'm currently watching The Vow,and I'm before that.
The Vow is about the Nexium,okay, which was this like

(49:06):
funnily enough, sort of ateam-building leadership
conference company uh that waslike taking place, no joke, like
very close to where I grew up.
Um but it turned into this wholesex cult.
Whoa.
Um, and there's a lot of like itit it's nuts.
That one and Wild Wild Country.

SPEAKER_05 (49:27):
Okay, so you're you're into cult documentaries.

SPEAKER_01 (49:29):
I I am now, I because I'm really getting into
them now.
And yeah, if you want to watchan amazing documentary, Wild
Wild Country, we'll prove to youeverything we'll we'll show to
you what is possible in America.

SPEAKER_05 (49:41):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (49:42):
Good and bad.

SPEAKER_03 (49:43):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (49:43):
Um where was I going with this?
Justice.
Yes.
So in any way, uh, in the vow, Ione someone said something that
like kind of hit me, which waslike, you you have to make
justice.
Justice isn't like a guarantee.
Like if something bad happens,there's no guarantee that like
that that like some sort ofkarma will come back around to
level the playing field.

(50:05):
Um, it's like, no, you have toactively seek justice and make
justice in order for bad actorsto be held accountable.
It's like, oh, that person's apiece of shit, they'll get
what's coming to them.
It's like, no, you have to givethem what's coming to them.

SPEAKER_05 (50:17):
Well, and we're kind of back to the subjective
objective thing again, right?
Like, I don't think nature givesa shit about our concept of
justice because it's a it's aconceit that is agreed upon.
Yeah right.
Like I personally, I don't thinkthat there is how do I want to
phrase this?
That we we as human beings, thisidea of morality is a human

(50:38):
concept.

SPEAKER_00 (50:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (50:39):
I th I don't think that makes it not real.
I just think that other beingson this planet are not
preoccupied with this idea ofright and wrong and justice.
Yeah.
Now, I don't have enough scienceto say that in my in my brain.
Because I do feel like there arethere are species that do I do

(51:01):
know that there are species ofmonkeys in particular that will
ostracize certain members of thepack for bad behavior.
Feel they've done somethingwrong for dangerous bad
behavior.
But they're so they're socialistcreatures like we are.
So they do have this conceit ofjustice.

SPEAKER_01 (51:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (51:20):
But I don't think that's a that's an inherently
natural thing of this earth orsomething like that.
I mean, I do I do also thinkthough, like life persists.
So like if if goodness andgrowth in life, if goodness is
growth in life, then maybe thereis some inherent sense of
morality and and justice.
Because like are you watchingParadise?

SPEAKER_01 (51:41):
No, but I should.

SPEAKER_05 (51:42):
Oh my god.
Um yeah, we're really interimingabout it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (51:45):
And why are you alone?

SPEAKER_05 (51:46):
This show is I've been having a lot of
conversations about this withfolks.
This show is post-apocalyptic.
There are elements that couldappear dystopian, but I do think
it's a utopian show.
Interesting.
Because there's inherentmessages of hope.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, but that title'smaybe a little subversive.
Um there's this inherent messageof hope, and it is that despite

(52:09):
our attempts to control us as ahuman species, the earth will
continue on.
Yeah.
And maybe even our species willcontinue on, but in ways that
are not in our control.

SPEAKER_02 (52:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (52:21):
And I I worked on this amazing series by Gabrielle
Korn.
Um The Shutouts was the book Inarrated.
The book before it is calledYours for the Taking.
Also questioning this idea ofwhat is like hope and and life
look like after we destroyeverything.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So so I think that there is anatural sense of hope, and if

(52:42):
hope and goodness, and if thatis growth, and if that is
justice, then maybe yes.

SPEAKER_01 (52:46):
Yeah.
I don't know.
Great answers.
Great stuff.
We'll do one more.
One last one.
If you found out the world wasending in 30 minutes, do you
know what you would do in thathalf hour?

SPEAKER_05 (53:00):
Oh, no, I don't think I do.

SPEAKER_01 (53:03):
It's quite a short amount of time.
Yeah.
Especially if you found outright now.
Yeah.
I'd be like, oh God, Gail, I'mso sorry.
Sorry, the last thing you did onthis earth was come on my
podcast.
I'm sure you'd rather spend itwith family or people you
haven't known for only an hour.
No, it was this.
It was to be on this podcast.
Okay, good.
Perfect.

(53:24):
Great.

SPEAKER_05 (53:24):
Yeah.
Uh, you know, that that is areally I think I would I think I
would, if I could work it out inreal time.
I think I would want to be innature with the people and
creatures I love the most.

SPEAKER_01 (53:41):
Yeah.
You just run to Central Park?

SPEAKER_05 (53:43):
Yeah.
I just frolic in the park.

SPEAKER_01 (53:45):
That's not a bad answer.

SPEAKER_05 (53:47):
Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 (53:47):
That's a great answer, actually.
I might do the same.

SPEAKER_05 (53:49):
Join us.

SPEAKER_01 (53:50):
Calling my girlfriend, being like, meet
meet me and Gail at the park.
We need to have a good time.
We have 30 minutes.
Let's go.
Central Park, the one in themiddle.
On that note, then, Gail.
That's the end of Yes, No,Sometimes Why.

SPEAKER_00 (54:04):
And we're at the end of the show.

SPEAKER_01 (54:06):
This was so fun, Gail.
This is so fun.
This was such a great time.
I'm so glad we finally got toget to know each other.

SPEAKER_03 (54:12):
Yes, likewise.

SPEAKER_01 (54:14):
Um anything you'd like to plug?
Like anything you're working onor coming out in the near future
or what have you?

SPEAKER_05 (54:21):
Um, stay tuned.
I can't talk about things yet.
Okay.
They're gonna be very exciting.
And we're we're very thrilledabout them.
So you can follow along onsocial media for now.
I'm I'm always playing withgetting rid of all of it, which
I really like.

SPEAKER_01 (54:35):
Trust me, I I delete Instagram.
I haven't been on Facebook in along time.
Good for you.
Fantastic.

SPEAKER_05 (54:41):
Yeah, you're not missing anything.

SPEAKER_01 (54:42):
I only go on like maybe once or twice a year now.
That is fantastic.
I don't miss it either.
Instagram is another thingthough.

SPEAKER_05 (54:50):
Yeah, same.
Likewise.

SPEAKER_01 (54:51):
Highly more addictive.
Yeah, very much so.
In a bad way.

SPEAKER_05 (54:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (54:54):
Um, but uh But that's where I'll talk about the
things.
Oh, great.
So so on Instagram?

SPEAKER_05 (54:59):
My handles at G-R-S-H-A-L-A-N, which is my
last name.
There you go.
Um you know what I will plug?
What?
Here we go.
Go for it.
Um I got an opportunity to workon a fantastic, unique audiobook
at the top of this year.

SPEAKER_02 (55:12):
Oh, great.

SPEAKER_05 (55:13):
Um, that I'm very excited about.
It's called Wait for Me by AmyJoe Burns.
Okay.
And it is the story of um ayoung woman in the 90s who's a
folk musician, sort ofdiscovering herself and has a
mysterious missing part of herpast, and a woman, uh a country
folk star in the 70s who is umalso full, her full story is

(55:38):
full of mystery, and they kindof intertwine.
And the the audition is thefirst audition I ever had that
had songs for an audiobook.

SPEAKER_00 (55:45):
Oh wow.

SPEAKER_05 (55:46):
And then it slowly went from two original songs
that the author had written umto an entire score for the
piece, or uh yes, I I would saylike it's not it's not scored,
it's um there are snippets ofsongs that are woven into the
audiobook, and there's musicthroughout some of it
underneath.

SPEAKER_01 (56:04):
But that's kind of atypical for audiobooks, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (56:07):
And and it's uh I think it's becoming more the
people are exploring what ispossible in audiobooks now in a
way that's very exciting to me.
Um, but yeah, we had MarkSanderlin, who's an incredible
narrator, but he's also acomposer, a ranger, and he was a
musical director.
He basically took all theselyrics and the context of the
story and what he knew aboutmusic from that time and wrote
like I don't know, maybe 25, 30original like snippets of songs.

(56:31):
Amazing.
And then so he he's a singer init, and I sing, and the amazing
Patty Murin is also a narratorand singer in the audiobook.
And it's just yeah, it was likenothing I've ever done before.
It was so much fun, and I hopeit's like a lot of things that
we'll do in the future.

SPEAKER_01 (56:45):
So oh my god, that's so cool.
Is that out now?
It's out now.
What's it called again?

SPEAKER_05 (56:49):
It's called Wait for Me by Amy Joe Burns.
It's it's gotten some good, goodpublicity.
It was like uh um today's show,uh Jenna's book club pick.
So it's been promoted up thewazoo, but I'm also very proud
of it.

SPEAKER_01 (57:01):
So that is so cool.
I'm definitely gonna listen tothat.
That's so cool.
Um, well, thank you so muchagain, Gail, for coming on.
This was so much fun.

SPEAKER_04 (57:09):
Thank you.
I had a great time.

SPEAKER_01 (57:10):
All right, y'all.
That's this week's episode ofthe Working Class Acts podcast.
We'll see you next week.

unknown (57:17):
Bye.

SPEAKER_03 (57:19):
Goodbye now.