Jacob Orr

On this week's episode I sit down with the ever-talented and ever-honest, Jacob Orr. We discuss everything from the production fluctuations of Broadway to how to ask audiences a question through a play.

If you're looking for handmade wooden home decor then my Etsy shop is perfect for you! For a look at my catalog go to: JohnMadWoodworking.Etsy.com

You can find more info about my work as an actor and voiceover artist on my website at: www.johnmaddaloni.com

Thanks for listening to this week's episode. Be sure to rate the show, enable automatic downloads and, if you're interested in becoming a donor, you can go to workingclassacts.com and press the support button at the top right corner of the page to donate today!

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
This is the theater game.
Tree or stolid.
Tree or style.
You may begin.

SPEAKER_02 (00:06):
Tree or stolid.
Tree.
Tree or a bicycle.
Damn.
Already off to a incrediblestory.

SPEAKER_01 (00:16):
I'm gonna say bicycle.
Um for a couple reasons.

SPEAKER_02 (00:19):
Can are are these physical objects, or can this be
like the feeling of being ananimal?
Maybe uh is it a noun or or isit you know?

SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
It could I take I I typically say noun, person,
place, or thing.
But it could it can be anything.

SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
Okay, but it's an un.
You've just given it in a waythat it's an.
So you said bicycle.
I did say bicycle.
Bicycle.

SPEAKER_01 (00:38):
Well, I guess mine isn't it's technically I love
that.
No, no, no, no, no.
Okay.
It's a noun.
Bicycle.
I don't know why I questionthat.

SPEAKER_02 (00:48):
Do you know what the word is?
I've actually forgotten.
Bicycle or dog.
Bicycle.
Okay.
That's huge.
Yeah.
So it's not an alive thing.
Bicycle or education.

(01:08):
I'm gonna say education.
Okay.
Education or a framed photo ofyour family.

SPEAKER_01 (01:18):
Um I don't know why I found that so funny.
You know, you're a funny family.
Uh I'm gonna stick witheducation.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:26):
Education or your best friend.
Not your best friend, but likethe general.
The idea of a best friend.
Uh I'm still gonna sayeducation.
That's a real person Iremembered as as soon as I said
it.
Uh education or uh your favoritesong?
Education.

(01:46):
Okay.
Education or uh the physicalbuilding of NYU Tish.
Ooh, the physical building ofNYU Tish.
The physical building of NYUTish or the fifth floor.

SPEAKER_01 (01:58):
I'll say the fifth floor.

SPEAKER_02 (01:59):
Okay, we're honing in.
Uh the fifth floor or the twolockers that we shared that were
right next to each other when wewere both going NYU.

SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
Oh my god.
Oh, it's not that, but fifthfloor.
Okay.
Um, I'll say fifth floor still.
Okay.
Uh see, there's so muchinterpretation.
Exactly.
The fifth floor or a torturechamber.
Hmm.
Depends on how you see it.
I was gonna say not dissimilarto something.
I'm gonna say fifth floor still.

SPEAKER_02 (02:27):
Okay.
Um not dissimilar.
Okay, so it's probably artbased.
So education, uh, a Broadwayplay.
And or a Broadway play.
Fifth floor.
Okay.
Fifth floor or a black boxtheater.

SPEAKER_01 (02:44):
I'm gonna give it to you.
Is that it?
It's theater.
Okay.
Black box theater.
Okay, but there you go.
You said it.

SPEAKER_03 (02:49):
I love it.

SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
He did it, everybody.
I'm really good at this game.
Yeah.
We should just do this in thenext step.
Welcome to Working Class Acts.

(03:16):
Hello, everyone, and welcome tothe Working Class Acts podcast.
I'm your host John Medalone.
I am joined today by such asweet, lovely, talented human
being.
He stands at six foot four.
He is a cook.
He is an actor, he is a lover ofthe arts.

(03:36):
He was in the play Punch lastyear at MTC.
He is an alum of the NYU gradacting program, and that is
where we met.
I'm here with Jacob Orr.
Hi, John.
Hey, buddy.
It's good to see you.
It's good to see you too.
For real.
We saw each other last year foruh that was last year, right?

SPEAKER_02 (03:52):
A reading?

SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
Oh, was that last year?
No.

SPEAKER_02 (03:54):
I think it was.
Might have been two years ago.
Was it really?
I know.
Jesus.
But it was for, yeah, a readingof a new play.
Um, and there was a lot of NYU.
Yeah, a lot of NY.
It was a lot of people.
It was like 20 people orsomething.

SPEAKER_01 (04:05):
No, not 20 people, maybe 15.
But it was a lot of people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's good to see you.
Good to see you too.

SPEAKER_02 (04:10):
Well, you were just out of town for another job,
weren't you?
Recently?
I was outside Philly at thistheater I've worked at called
People's Light a few times doing12th night.
People's Light, 12th night.
Exactly.
And if you want a full circlemoment, please.
I was playing Sir Andrew,obviously.
Agu cheek.
And that's the first role I everplayed as an actor, my freshman
year of high school.
Really?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wow.

(04:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (04:31):
Wait, take us back.
Take us back.
You were born.
Oh, I didn't say this before.
You were born in Oregon.
Portland, Oregon.

SPEAKER_02 (04:36):
Portland, Oregon.
Yeah.
Did you like Portland?
I love Portland.
Yeah.
I it's funny, I I think I neverfelt that much like an Oregonian
living there because I wasn'tkind of as crunchy and nature-y
as people I grew up around.
But then moving to New York nineyears ago, like the Oregon in me
was like a good one.
So now I'm incredibly Oregonian.

(04:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (04:59):
Um, and when I go home, it's like just the best.
Yeah.
I was gonna say, it didn't, I Idon't recall you being from
Oregon.
So when you said that, I waslike, is that true?

SPEAKER_02 (05:07):
No, yeah.
Like, like, like I wasn't likesmoking weed, I wasn't like
wearing Birkin stocks and stuff.
Now I'm doing uh both of thosethings, but you know, at the
time, no.
Um but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (05:19):
I love it, I love it.
Uh so when did you catch theproverbial bug, as it were?

SPEAKER_02 (05:25):
For acting.

SPEAKER_01 (05:26):
When did you start yeah, for acting?

SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
Um, I was a dancer as a kid.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
I went to uh an arts school as aas a young, young kid, and they
had uh an incredible program.
There's this amazing teachernamed Keith Goodman, who
unfortunately has passed away.
Um, and he ran a program calledBoys Dance.
Boys Dance.
So for like first through fifthgraders, it was an after-school

(05:49):
program where it was an all-boysdance class kind of company.
Um, and I just really loved it.
I think I was a very energeticchild, and so I'm sure it was
good to kind of move my body alot.
Um, but I I was a dancer, andthen I went to a middle school
where instead of PE, we haddance.
It was called Da Vinci ArtsMiddle School.

SPEAKER_01 (06:09):
You could choose PE or dance.

SPEAKER_02 (06:12):
Oh, there's j- Oh, there you go.
And where I met Art Leah Zimmer,who was in my class.
We met when we were in middleschool.
What?
Insane.
Um, but so I was a dancer.
I mean, that's what I did was Iwas a dancer.
Yeah.
And then I got to high schooland I still danced a little, but
around 14 is when the decisionbecomes, are you gonna dance or
are you gonna stop?
Like there's no, it's not likethat casually.

(06:35):
It's just that's it.

SPEAKER_01 (06:36):
Um and I decided to stop.
Was there a reason?
Like, did you feel like you'reyou you had uh inspiration to go
and try other arts, or was itjust like So I always give my
brother credit.

SPEAKER_02 (06:48):
My brother found acting when my brother's four
years older, and we went to thesame high school, not at the
same time he graduated, but hehad done theater in middle
school.
Yeah, he that's how he found it.
And so the theater department atmy high school was you know a
not a super affluent highschool, but just like a very
dedicated, cool theaterdepartment, a great teacher.
Um, and so I I think yeah, Ithere wasn't a dance program or

(07:12):
anything at the school, and Ialso think I was starting to
grow wary of like the kind ofexpressionlessness I felt like I
was seeing in dance.
Yeah, I'm now dating a dancer,yeah, and I know that that is
not true, but I think 14 yearold You were just doing it
wrong.
Right.
I was doing that.
Um but I think 14-year-old me, Ithink like I was yearning for a

(07:34):
bit more storytelling, isprobably um, and so I it was I
got to high school, had taken acouple of dance classes with my
old teachers, and then justthought, I don't know anymore.
Yeah, but my brother had lovedthe theater department, and it
was fun, you know, going, I hadgrown up watching him do plays
at this high school.
So the the like juniors andseniors, I was like, you're

(07:54):
gods.
Yeah, yeah.
I saw you when I was 12.
Yeah.
Um and I was 12.
You're like 30.
Um, but I was too afraid toaudition.
So the first thing I ever didwith theater was I ran crew,
which I like, I I think is avery informative part of who I
am as an artist.
Yeah.
Truly.
Oh, definitely.

(08:15):
That that I started doing thisfrom the backstage side.
I then quickly started acting,and then that was kind of that
was the bug was 12th night andplaying Sir Andrew.
But wow, I think that PattonOswald always talks about
finding stand-up first becausehe loved the hang.
And like I think there is truthin that for me that like I just
fell in love with the people andthe community and the group and

(08:37):
the camaraderie, and and then Ijust I love that as a concept.

SPEAKER_01 (08:41):
You love the hang.
That's so true.
Like, there is a that just likebrought me back to high school.
You've been saying that, like,all the times you're just like
hanging out with friends betweenlike rehearsing or not or not.

SPEAKER_02 (08:55):
Seminal life events that happen to me in the theater
room.
Yeah, like both uh PG andR-rated, you know what I mean?
Like, so my whole life was doingthat.
Totally.
And like, I think healthily mylife now is a lot of things.
It's not just that, but I dothink that like I say this a lot
that like every time I'm doing aprofessional show, I have a

(09:17):
moment, and then usually happensa lot, but I have a moment where
I'm like, I'm getting away withsomething.
Like, they're paying me to dothey don't they know I'm gonna
do that.
Oh, I have that moment.

SPEAKER_01 (09:26):
I don't I don't think about it in that way, but
I I remember this one moment Idid like this was years ago.
I did a Panera Bread commercial.
Hey, Panera Bread.
If you want to hire me again,I'll eat that mac and cheese all
day.
Would you?
I mean, I'm a Panera hater, Ihave to say.
I don't want it anymore afterthat shoot because I ate so
goddamn much of it.
Sorry, Panera Bread.
I am sorry.

(09:46):
This was years ago, so I can saythis.
Yeah.
Um but I do remember it was likea fun little uh it was a fun
shoot because it was like kindof Wes Anderson-y in that it was
like it was very like umchoreographed and like very like
profiled shots and stuff likethat, and like very specific.
And I just remember there was amoment where like I'm laying in
a fake bed.
A fake bed.

(10:07):
It was a real bed.
Right.
Not in the room, but yes.
And I remember just laying therelooking up at the lights and
going, God, I'm the luckiestmotherfucker in the world.
What are we doing?
What are we?
I'm getting paid a lot of moneytoday to just act up goof brawl.

SPEAKER_02 (10:22):
I I have a the a guy who I just did 12th night with
who I've worked with a bunch,Kevin Bergen, who's a great
thilly actor, wonderful guy.
He he I will always I neverforget he always, you know, tech
is hard, things get rough, yeah,people's moods get whatever.
And and the moments I've seenKevin get frustrated, he'll then
look in the mirror and he'll go,This beat's working at Walmart.

SPEAKER_01 (10:42):
And then that will like save him.
I have to tell myself that everytime I'm in my my voiceover
booth when I'm doing anaudiobook and I'm feeling like
just lethargic or whatever, I'mlike, this is better than
catering.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (10:54):
Hey, you're talking to somebody who caters.

SPEAKER_01 (10:56):
So my main side dude.
That's one of mine as well.
And I'm like, I'm slowly inchingout of it.
Okay.
Slowly with some of these audio.
I I I booked five audiobooksthis month.
So I was like feeling good aboutit and the momentum.
But that's great.
But yeah, it's it's like youlike this more than the other
stuff.
Right, right now.
But that's important,especially.
It is an important thing.

(11:16):
Because it is also a job at theend of the day, too.

SPEAKER_02 (11:18):
And and I think that like the more successful you
get, and success, I think, foran actor especially, like, it's
so vitally important that youdefine what success is for you.
Because the world's gonna tellyou it's fame and money.
And like for very few of us isthat the case.
But like, if success means,which I think it can mean, like
like we were talking aboutearlier, like m a lot of your

(11:42):
nut, as it were, being throughExcuse me?
Sorry, let me explain what thatmeans.
You're not meaning you're you'regross, your income.
Um my nut.
If if success means you'remaking most of your money doing
it.
Yes.
Rather than doing some sidekick,you're nut, as it were.
Um You are so from Portland, youdisgusting monster.

(12:06):
But but but like it can be easyto lose sight of that when like
the irony being, the more you'redoing it, the more it can feel
normal.
Yeah.
Like that is both natural andgood, I think.
I think so.
And I think it's important tolike re have ways to like
rejuvenate that excitement inyourself.
Yeah.
Of like, I'm doing this becauseI got the bug when I was 15.

(12:30):
Yeah.
And I like the idea of doingsomething else to me is like
cuckoo bananas.
I can't think of anything else Iwould rather do.
And there's stuff I would loveto do.
I I have many interests, I'dlove to do a lot of things, but
like I I feel like every yearI'm 30 now, and every year that
I, you know, every year I I feellike more people I know totally

(12:51):
naturally are start havingpriorities above doing this.
Yeah.
Whether it's financial stabilityor the ability to, you know, all
this kind of stuff.
And and I always check in withmyself.
I'm like, okay, is that true foryou now?
And every year so far, thenlike, nah, I just want to keep
doing this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And being poor.

SPEAKER_01 (13:06):
No, I dude, I'm the same way.
I'm like, if I'm gonna get rich,it's gonna be doing this.
Yeah, why not?
Why not?
It's like, would I rather doI've always work in tech?
Work in tech.
No, thank you.
I always think of that umthere's a great Alfred Molina
interview where he startstalking about his dad and he

(13:27):
says, God, oh god, it's it'sgonna get me choked up because
he's talking about like he wasworking a job that he didn't
like, but he was making a lot ofmoney.
Sure.
And then he was offered a rolein a play that he really wanted
to do, and was being offeredsome other promotion or
something like that, and so hedecided, he's like, I'm gonna do
the play, and his dad was like,Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

(13:48):
whoa, whoa, what are you doing?
He's like, I I want to do thisplay.
He's like, It's more hours, it'sless pay.
What why would you do that?
Right.
He's like, Because I love it.

SPEAKER_03 (13:57):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (13:58):
And he was like, I don't think he ever got it.
I understood that.
And you could see it in the wayit's look it up.
You if just Alfred Molina,father video, you'll find it
immediately.
Right.
Um, but it's very, very powerfuland moving.
But it is this there issomething in that that I think a
lot of like artists uh grapplewith.
The notion of just like, I uhwealth is not enough for me to

(14:23):
let go of the thing that I love.

SPEAKER_02 (14:25):
But it it is a hard every year that goes by, it's
harder.
I mean, we are absolutely likeneck deep in late stage
capitalism.
Oh my god.
You know, without getting toopolitical.
No, do it.
I don't know.
You know, in the podcast in thehellscape we're living in, you
know, it is becoming it can be aharder and harder equation to to
to be like, uh, how am I gonnasurvive?

(14:46):
Especially in the city, which isso expensive.
Yeah.
Um, and like I I have a lot ofgratitude, kind of in that same
way, for my parents who are bothteachers, and and I mean, my
parents just the only messagingthey've ever given me was like,
just do what you want to do.
Yeah, like it's just not worthit to do something else.
Yeah.
And I think like seeing them,you know, I think that they love

(15:11):
a lot of their job, and ofcourse, like any job, there's
stuff you don't love, but likethey both love working with
students, like in differentways, but that that is what
brought them brings them joy.
Um, and for me, it's like it isthe collaboration of creating
something and then sharing itwith people.

SPEAKER_01 (15:29):
Yeah, with people who choose to come and be a part
of the community as well, whichis like not an easy thing to
like do.
Like that I think that's thehardest part of any theatrical
endeavor is like just makingsure that an audience shows up
because that's where the moneyis, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 (15:48):
You know, like Yes.
Uh uh Anne Washburn, do you knowthe player Anne Washburn?
Sure, Mr.
Burns and stuff.
She did this thing a coupleyears ago at Soho Burn.
I love that play.

SPEAKER_01 (15:56):
Oh my god, you guys did such a fucking fantastic
production of.
You were so, so good in that,man.
So fun.

SPEAKER_02 (16:04):
Thank you very much.
Uh, she did this thing at SohoRep when they were closing their
space called Murder Room, whichwas basically this like
interactive exhibit where youcould come in and it was like
her deconstruction of Americantheater about like where she
thought it was going, what wasthe problem with it?
It was really interesting, andshe was there.
Um, and so I remember chattingwith her, and I said to her, I
was like, Wow, I know so manyactors, theater artists who have

(16:29):
so much energy to do this, yeah.
But we find it it it feels sohard to like get people together
to create stuff.
And I was kind of asking her,you know, what are your
thoughts?
What are your and I reallyappreciated this.
She was like, Well, it's reallyworth acknowledging that like 25
years ago, everyone's rent was$400.

(16:49):
So you could work two shifts ata cafe and then spend the rest
of your time doing shit forfree.
Yep.
Because you could afford that.
And now not only, and this iswhat I feel all the time, not
only do you have to work a lotto make your nut, um, not only
do you have to do that, but likeI feel really bad asking my
friends to do stuff for free.
Yeah.

(17:09):
Because I'm like, your time isworth so much now.
Yeah.
You know?
Um, so I totally hear whatyou're saying.
I and I said that I at this talkback we were doing uh of this
show I just did, which you know,very grateful to do it.
It wasn't necessarily in everyaspect my favorite production of
a play.
And and I remember saying to thedirector at some point, like

(17:30):
when we were talking about achoice in a moment, I I said, my
allegiance is to the audience,always.
Yeah, always.
And and we were doing a talkback, and someone asked
something along those lines, andI remember saying, like, it has
never been a more difficultproposition for people to spend
their money to come see theater.
And so, like, the least I can dois sh give them everything I

(17:52):
have when I'm out there.
They're like spending money tocome here, money that they
worked really hard for.
Maybe they're spending even morewith a baby or whatever, you
know, kind of the stereotype,but like the best I can do is is
make that worth their while.

SPEAKER_01 (18:06):
Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah.
It's interesting because whenwhen you say that, like the
people who are coming to thetheater now, are I I my my mind
immediately went to like thepast couple years of like
Broadway and where uh how itshifted a lot in who it's
casting with celebrities, butalso who the audience members
are.
Right.

(18:27):
Because I think producers dorecognize which audiences have
money and which don't, and howmuch that is affecting what gets
produced, what doesn't getproduced.
We see a lot of I say this allthe time, I'm a broken record
about it, but I do think it isworth constantly bringing up
because it sooner or later thisis gonna break or stop or change

(18:49):
in a way that's like if we'reconstantly producing things that
only adhere to one generationthat has money, like how are you
setting up the future of theaterfor ne the next audiences if
those audience members aren'tafforded?
Can't afford to go see it.

SPEAKER_02 (19:06):
I mean, I remember in in in Portland when I was
every every kid got a free ifyou went to a public high
school, you got a free bus passon four years for the public bus
system.
Wow.
And I remember there was a lotof I mean, Portland is an
incredibly white city.
I always joke Portland's a citywhere white families price black
families out of their homes andthen put a Black Lives Matter

(19:26):
sign in their yard.
Oh my god.
Um and there was a lot of talkright before I left about like,
you know, they would do dreamgirls at the expense of theater
where and it was just like theywere like this is and it was
nothing, you know what I mean?
It was still for the whiteaudio, these older white folks.
And there was a lot of talkabout how do we get black young
black folks to come see theater.
And I I I certainly didn't comeup with this, but someone was

(19:49):
like, in the same way that youget a bus pass, if you're a
public high school student, youshould get a every high school
student should get a freeticket.
Absolutely.
Just by having a and that's Ithink about the same with
Broadway.
It's like you're not gonna losemoney, these kids aren't gonna
see it no matter what.
Yeah.
So if you give it to them forfree, that's not taking away
money they're gonna spend on aBroadway show.
But like, if you want to make,like you're saying, a new

(20:11):
generation of theater makers andtheater patrons, yeah, you have
to get them in early.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
And the great thing about NewYork is that there's so much
incredible theater happeningthat isn't super expensive,
yeah.
Um, prohibitively expensive, butyou know, Broadway's Broadway.
Uh in the same way thatHollywood is Hollywood.
Like, there's so many greatsmall budget indie movies

(20:34):
happening where there's hugewells of talent, but like people
want to go to AMC.
You know, they want to go sitdown and look at it.

SPEAKER_01 (20:40):
I go to AMC all the time.
I'm on A-list.
But that's the thing.
That they at least havesomething that is a little
A-list.
Something fucking fantastic.
Oh my god, are you really?
I know.
Oh my god.
Remember that summer moviepassed when it was like$10?
I got in way too late.
Oh, that's I got in way toolate.
I was so fucking pissed.

SPEAKER_02 (20:58):
That summer, it was like we all knew this was gonna
fail.

SPEAKER_01 (21:01):
So while it works, told me the business model, I
went, that will never last, butI will buy it for now because so
many movies.

SPEAKER_02 (21:09):
I was like no way that I saw so many movies I
definitely wouldn't have seen.
And they were great.
Yeah, exactly.
But I was like, this is free forme to see this, so why wouldn't
I go see this movie?
Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (21:20):
Well, it's not technically free, but it's like
it's at a price that you canafford.

SPEAKER_02 (21:23):
I mean, yeah, I've seen nine movies a month and
it's twenty dollars for a monthof movies.
That's like what's like twodollars, two dollars and ten
cents or something.
Like movies are so expensive,but like at this point, a twenty
dollar movie ticket for threehours of entertainment in New
York, that's like a good bankbuck.
Yeah, you know?
Yeah, totally.
A three hundred dollar theaterticket at at minimum is not.

SPEAKER_01 (22:27):
This comes back to our conversation about
capitalism, which was like lastyear's Broadway gross was like
the highest in history, but itwas the least attended.
Yeah.
So it's like Well, it's like yougotta adjust gross.

SPEAKER_02 (22:41):
It's like just everything's more expensive now.
So like sure you're making moremoney, but what is that
actually?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (22:45):
I'm did you ever read the first But also think
about it this way if it's thehighest grossing but the least
attended, that actually meansyou've lost money.
You failed, yeah.
You did fail.
Because if more people attended,they would have put yeah you
would have had people buyingmore merchandise, more drinks,
more stuff like that.
Coming back.
Coming back.
Well, right.

SPEAKER_02 (23:05):
And also like and also like that that beautiful
generation of theater patrons.
Like, like working regionally,you see them.
There are these great likeseptigenarians who like love
theater and will go to it.
Yeah.
They are all getting old.
And there's not really anothernew class coming up to take that
spot because it's soprohibitively expensive.

(23:26):
Did you ever read The FerventYears by Willie?
It sounds familiar, but I'venever read it.
It's not the group theater, andit's kind of the creation of
off-Broadway Theater.
And and I don't totally know ifI agree with this, but one of
his suppositions is liketheater.
Who?
Sorry.
The author whose name I shcannot remember in the case.
I'm like desperately looking foryou.

(23:46):
I'm like, let me look it on myphone.

SPEAKER_01 (23:47):
And my as my phone is over there.

SPEAKER_02 (23:49):
Um but he says he's and again, I don't totally
necessarily agree with this100%, but he's like, theater
should not be a profitablemedium.
Because like if theater is doingwhat theater should, it should
be divisive.
It shouldn't be crowd-pleasingin the way that uh a Marvel
movie is.
And God bless a Marvel movie.
I'm not in no way shitting onthat.

(24:10):
And and also some theatershould, you know, like freaking
what's a fun Hades Town isincredible and has been running
for years.
I would say it's probably thelast great, it's the it's the
last great original musical, Iwould say, um, on Broadway.
Um but there's something aboutthat that I agree with.

SPEAKER_01 (24:29):
Really, you didn't like Margaritaville?

SPEAKER_02 (24:31):
Didn't see it.
Can't say it.
Who did?
That flew by.
Um but like that that I likethat idea that like that like we
shouldn't be making theaterbecause we're trying to make
back our investment.
We should be making it becauseit feels urgent and it feels
important and we have a story totell.
Um it's uh frankly, it's thereason why like not to bring up
punch this early in theconversation.
But like, A, I was really proudof Punch because there weren't

(24:55):
movie stars in it.
You know what I mean?
It wasn't a show that was beingfunded on the back of someone's
celebrity.
But B, it was a reallyinteresting, important,
empathetic, human piece ofwriting.
Yeah.
That like whether or not youloved it, it was a show that was
about something, yeah, and itwas and it was about something

(25:18):
in this moment in time wherelike because of the internet,
because of uh politics, like itis harder and harder to have
empathy for like people whoseexperiences you do not identify
with.
Um and I'm like, isn't that kindof what theater's about?
Like the the alchemy of sittingin a room with people doing it

(25:38):
is about that exchange ofenergy.
Yeah.
And so if you're sitting in aroom thinking, I just spent a
thousand dollars for thisticket, I better feel like I
just had the best sex of my lifeor else it wasn't worth it.

SPEAKER_00 (25:51):
That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 (25:51):
I'm like, there's I I I don't care who anyone is,
yeah, no one's performance isworth a thousand dollars.
No.
I don't give a shit if it'sTaylor Swift to whoever, no one
is performing at$1,000 a seat.
I agree.
No one.
Um but that just reminded me ofactually the author right over

(26:13):
there, uh, James Shapiro, TheYear of Lear.
Um I was listening to a podcastthat he was on, because I'm
doing like research just liketheater pieces of like different
like theater histories.
And one of them I'm doing is onthe Federal Theater Project.
And he was talking about theFederal Theater Project, and
it's the one of the only uh itis the only government subsided

(26:35):
theater programs that has everexisted uh in the country.
Uh, and it only lasted like Ithink three, four years in this
country.
Yeah.
Uh headed by Halle Flanagan.
Um, and uh anyway, I say allthis because in the podcast he
said something.
I'm not sure if he was quotingsomeone or if he was just
paraphrasing something or if hemade it up, but he was saying

(26:56):
every thriving democracy needs agood theater.
And if you have a thrivingtheater, you have a good
democracy.
Well, this just in.
I don't think we're living in athriving democracy for a lot of
people.
And that's the thing.
And that's what kills me aboutlike all the commercial theater
that we have right now, becauseI'm just like, it's just a wash
of neutrality.
Right.
And I'm like, it's boring.

(27:18):
But it's whatever happened toopinions in a pla like I can't
stand now when I hear people go,Oh, they were just trying to jam
their uh a message down ourthroats.
I'm like, that's a story.
Yes, all stories have beenbecause this is why I You can
get the fuck out of here, Jacob.

SPEAKER_02 (27:36):
Yet another reason I liked Punch was I I think I love
British writers.
I love them, I love them.
Because I do think what Britishwriters do really well in
general is they are reallycomfortable with asking really
uh thought-provoking, sometimesuncomfortable questions and not
answering them.

(27:56):
And I think American theatretends to try to answer them,
tell you what you should takefrom this.
Sure.
This is the message.
Fair enough.
And British plays in general, Idon't think they want a message,
they want you to think.
Yeah.
So like I remember, and going toyour point about you know,
federally funded arts, when Istudied abroad in London when I

(28:17):
was an undergrad, um, I saw somuch theater because you could
rush a show for like 30 pounds.
Um I mean, that's what theNational Theatre in England is.
And so, like, I saw the JenniferHaley play, The Nether.
Do you know that play?
No.
It's so good.
You gotta read it.
But I I didn't, I was just like,I it's it's 1:30 and I got
nothing to do.
This play is about to go on,I'll see it.

(28:38):
And that show rocked my socksoff.
Yeah.
And not because I came outfeeling necessarily uh hopeful
about humanity, but like it wasso um, I felt so implicated as
an audience member.
And I felt so stimulated, and Ididn't feel like I came out with
a neat little bow on what I wassupposed to think.
I'm still thinking about thatplay.

(28:59):
Yeah, 15 years later.
It hasn't been 15 years, thatwas bad math.
But I I just think that there isalso a difference between like
inviting an audience to to thinkabout things and and uh uh spoon

(29:21):
feeding an audience what youwant them to feel.
Sure.
You know?

SPEAKER_01 (29:27):
I feel that.
I underst I I to I agree withthat.
Um I think maybe I'm so reticentor I'm just so vitriolic towards
some of this stuff because Ifeel like they're not even
asking questions.
Oh, yeah, totally.
They're just doing it and andI'm like, can we shade rather
have someone speak or feed mesomething than just the general
wash of just like Can we shadecurrent Broadway shows on this

(29:49):
podcast?

SPEAKER_02 (29:50):
Oh fuck yeah.
Great.
I don't give a shit.
I my partner's parents were intown, and they had read the
hilarious New York Times articleabout Dog Day Afternoon, where
Stephen Adler Girgis was kickedout of the room because of
problems with whatever.
And so they were like, This didyou hear about this?
No.
Oh, Stephen Adler Girgis, whowrote the play, was kicked out

(30:11):
of the I think it was duringprevious.
Well, adapted, didn't he?
Technically, well, it's ascreenplay.
It's not a play.

SPEAKER_01 (30:16):
Yeah, I know, but he didn't but he didn't write Dog
Day Afternoon.
He didn't write Dog Day Afterthe original screen.
But he wrote the play Dog DayAfternoon.
Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 (30:24):
And he was Which he took, which he adapted from.
Uh article.
Yeah, yeah, okay, which wasadapted from newspaper article,
you sound up yet.
But he and they were like, thisis crazy, we gotta go see this.
And I'll I'll I'll be the firstone to say it's really not good.
Oh no.
I mean, I'm not the first I'mnot joking.
Everyone said the all thereviews are like this is really
bad.

(30:44):
It's really badly.
And to your point, like it's oneof those where I Tessa, my
partner, and I came away beinglike, what were we supposed to
think?
Think about that.
Like, besides John Bernthal's ahandsome guy.
Yeah.
Hey, I'll say it's got JohnBernthal and that other guy.

SPEAKER_01 (31:01):
And I'll say both amazing actors.

SPEAKER_02 (31:04):
Most amazing actors.
I don't know if they're doingamazing work in this play.
Oh, really?
And they're both very handsome.
They look very good up there.
But I it was, it was like anespecially.
I mean, also, so many Broadwayshows are just adaptations of
movies now.
Yeah.
And I think baseline for that,you have to be like, have you
justified making this a play?
And I would say I came out ofthat being like, maybe this one

(31:24):
should have just stayed a movie.
Like, I don't know, this shouldhave been a play.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (31:28):
Um, yeah.
Well, that always kills me.
It's just like, just go watchthe movie.
Just go watch the movie.
Why do you need the theater?
It's it's so weird.
Like, I did not realize we weregonna go on this tangent for so
long.
I feel like I haven't asked youany questions.
We can go back.
We can go back.
We can, but I will but I'mliking this a lot.
But I'm just like, it's it's sofunny to me now.
Like, people it's so funny.

(31:50):
I'm like really putting thistogether in my head right now,
which is people aren't going tosee like movies as much as they
used to.
They'd rather watch them athome.
They're seeing these celebritieshere.
If they want to go see a show onBroadway, it has to be something
they know.
So they're adapting stuff thatare movies into shows on on
Broadway.

(32:11):
And then in order to get peoplebutts in seats for these shows,
they're casting the people whoare in the TV shows and the
movies to be on stage.

SPEAKER_02 (32:21):
But the funniest part of it all is these shows
don't do very well.
Like the shows that they're alllimited runs.
Well, yes, because the showsthat do well are the original
things, yeah, but that takesseven.
I mean, how long was Hamilton indevelopment?
Years.
Yeah.
And and these theaters want tomake money now.
So, like that show with um AdeleDezim, that's not her name, but

(32:41):
Redwood.

SPEAKER_01 (32:42):
Redwood.
That one was on for like an anafternoon and a half.

SPEAKER_02 (32:45):
Well, but it it its first ever showing, thank you.
It's first ever, I'm gettingexcited, and I'm whoo! Its first
ever production was like alimited regional run or
something, and then it wentstraight to Broadway.
Of course.
Because they did not care aboutdeveloping work.
Hades Town was an album, andthen it was at the New York
Theater Workshop.
Like, these things take time.

(33:06):
It's hard to do that.

SPEAKER_01 (33:07):
Hades Town was at New York Theater Workshop like a
decade before it came toBroadway.

SPEAKER_02 (33:13):
This just in.
It's hard to write good plays.
Yeah.
It's really hard to write goodmusicals.
Yes.
And like, so so the the thing isis that all these theaters, both
before COVID, but especiallyafter COVID, they're so
desperate to make back the moneythey lost that like they're
like, just do anything.
But like the shows that actuallythey make money are shows that
took time.

SPEAKER_01 (33:34):
But this is what I'm gonna say to what you guys can
move on.
Then we can move on.
Which is it is really hard.
You know, there's that sayinganyone can act, few can direct,
no one can write.
I've never heard that, but Ilike it.
But that's a thing I don't thinkit's entirely true.
I think acting is much harderthan I'm a show.
At least don't try what we'redoing at home, folks.

(33:57):
Um so when when you do findsomeone who can write, it's like
gold and it's beautiful.
Guess what?
There are so many great writersout there.
So this idea of like, yeah, itis hard to write a good play,
yeah, but there are plenty ofpeople.
Why do you think all thesestudents are going to to school
to figure out how to write thisway?

(34:18):
Like, uh, I read like almostevery year I go to NYU and have
to and read scripts and likehelp out with like the writing c
classes and whatever.
And I'm like, there are greatwriters out here, young great
writers.
Yeah, it's it's not a matter ofI don't think producers care
about quality in that respectanymore, which I I hate saying,

(34:40):
but I think it's true because Ithey think about money.
And an extended thing, whichI've said several times, which
is producers are not creativesanymore.
Yeah, yeah, that's a good way tosay it.
And they're they're just moneypeople and they they look for
trends because trends bring inmoney.
But to your point about likegood writers, it's like it's out

(35:01):
there.

SPEAKER_02 (35:01):
Well, but plenty, yes, and like again, not to
bring up Hamilton again, butlike like it's still Lin Memoir
Miranda was an establishedincredible writer when you wrote
Hamilton.
It still took eight years.
Yeah, like that's what I'msaying.
It's not like if you're a goodwriter, you should be able to
pull out an incredible play insix months.
Like it still takes years ofdevelopment to do this, yeah,

(35:22):
because you need to see it alongevery stage of the process, no
matter how good you are.
No one works in a vacuum.
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 (35:29):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (35:30):
It's just I think there's more to be learned about
people developing their owntaste.
Yeah.
Because I do think, again, backto the the discussion about what
is good and bad theater.
It's just like, well, if you'reconstantly putting out stuff
that doesn't ask any form ofquestion or or what have you,
and has just a neutral opinionabout everything, right?

(35:53):
Then you have a whole generationof people who are watching that
stuff thinking, oh, the thecritics say this is good.
So I'll go see it.
And they've been paid to saythat it's good.
Right.
Um then everyone's gonna go seeit.
And then everyone's gonna startabsorbing it and going, Well, I
was told this is good, so itmust be good.
Right.
The greater good.

(36:13):
If you've ever seen Hot Fuzz,yes, the great fucking movie,
but it's a similar thing, it'slike a form of brainwashing.
And I do think that we're atthis point now with theater
where it's such a wash ofneutrality that and nobody wants
to get canceled for saying thewrong thing or saying
something's bad.

(36:33):
What the fuck is being canceled?
Like that's why I'm not gonna beable to do it.

SPEAKER_02 (36:35):
Being canceled is such a right-wing idea that
doesn't fucking exist.
I know it's fucking stupid.
LCK's still making so muchgoddamn money.
Who gives a fuck?

SPEAKER_01 (36:42):
Exactly.
And but it just like I'm like,we need opinion.
We need strong opinion andstrong questions.

SPEAKER_02 (36:48):
My mom, when I was in grad school, went and saw
some Adam Rat play with uhwhat's the one from Weeds?
Uh uh uh Oh, Michelle.

SPEAKER_01 (36:56):
No.
No.
No.
Michelle Pfeiffer?
No.
No, I know who you're talkingabout because I auditioned for a
movie she was in once.

SPEAKER_02 (37:03):
Yes, her.
She was in some play where sheplayed a teacher and her
student, and she and they had anaffair.
And my mom.

SPEAKER_01 (37:08):
Yeah.
Wait, this David Cromer directedit, I think.

SPEAKER_02 (37:11):
Maybe, I don't know.
She hated it.
Yeah.
Because she's a teacher and shewas like, this is horrifying.
Yeah, yeah.
But she kept talking about it.
And I was like, Mom, I thinkit's a good play because you're
thinking about it so much.

SPEAKER_01 (37:21):
Like, and that's- But here's the thing.
I think you cannot like a playand it can still have you
thinking stuff.

SPEAKER_02 (37:26):
No, that's what I'm saying.
I think if you have that strongreaction to it, it's a
successful play.
Yeah.
Because the play's job is not tomake you walk away going, that
play was awesome, I loved it.
But if it's stirring somethingin you.

SPEAKER_01 (37:37):
Well, actually, now that now you're saying this, I I
just recently saw the SuperMario Galaxy movie.
Yeah, let's go.
As a joke.
I wasn't with some friends.
Dog shit.
Did you see the first one?
Yes.
It was pretty good.
No, it wasn't.
Okay, yes.
It is the second one, it is justa wash of case sequences IP

(37:57):
fight.
It's just flashing.
It really is.
Looks beautiful.
Don't don't get me wrong, but itis trash, just like the first
one.
That's fair.
And I have a right to say that.
This is my podcast.
That's true.
Go fuck yourself.
Um where are we?
Oh my god, we have spent so muchtime on the I don't care though.
I actually wish I I should havethe show operate more like this.

(38:18):
Okay.
I feel like.
Totally.
So uh because normally I just dolike a little like character
breakdown, a bio of the stuff.
Well, we can do that too, butyou can fuck it.
We can move on to the next one.
You can get me started.
I'll get going.
I'll get going.
I think this says more about youthan than you know.

SPEAKER_02 (38:32):
Well, you know, it's funny.
I uh as you look up thisquestion, I'll say this.
Like, I just again did thisproduction of Twelfth Night that
like was really fun and reallysuccessful in some ways, and
also I think artistically wasn'tmy favorite thing.
Yeah.
And and there were moments ofreal frustration having to do
with a myriad of things.
And a friend of mine who was outthere said this to me, and I I
really resonated with it.
She was like, I'm being verypolitical, can you tell?

(38:52):
Um please, I'll I'll love it.
And and she said, um, when youlove this thing as much as you
do, not doing it well is reallyhard.
Dude.
And that's and that's the thing,is it's like, I not only do I
love acting, not only do I lovelike I think as you're saying,
like, theater is reallyimportant.

(39:12):
And so, like, when it's not, I'mnone of this is coming from this
is all coming from a place oflove.
And it's the love of being like,this can be the fucking best
thing in the world.
Absolutely.
And so when it's not, when youcan smell the consumerism, when
you can smell the the businessof it all the time, it's really
it's it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 (39:32):
I I totally feel that.
And and uh something I was gonnasay going back to what we were
saying before, though, um I Ihave strong opinions about bad
stuff too, though.
And and like so, I I'm sort ofrescinding what I said a moment
ago, which is like I actually dothink bad things make me
question more, but it doesn'tmake me question themes, it
makes me question what they weretrying to do.

(39:53):
And that and if if I'm sittingin the audience thinking after
just watching it and going,wait, what happened?
Or during it failed.
You fucking failed.
And and to give like in a majorway.

SPEAKER_02 (40:06):
Yes, and to give dog day afternoon its due, uh, a
friend of mine happened to be atthe same night we were there,
and he liked it.
And I was like, art issubjective.
Like wait, did you see it inpreviews?
I think I saw it the nightbefore it opened, maybe.
But like, oh I think it'schanged.
But like again, if you'regetting to the day before
opening and you're still like,it's like but like what I I that

(40:27):
has been another reminder for meconstantly recently, is like,
oh, art is subjective.
Like there are things that I'mlike, there's no way anyone
could like this, and people arelike, I love that.
Or there are things like onebattle after another, which I
was like, this is an incrediblefucking movie.
I love it so much.
And I knew people who wereeither hated it, which was one
thing, or were kind of lukewarmon it.
And I was like, how are youlukewarm on this?
You hated.

SPEAKER_01 (40:46):
I will say there were people that I hated in it,
and I didn't always root for theleads.
I mean that maybe soundedterrible.
I'm cutting that.
I I mean you were Sean Pennbootlicker, get out of here.
I mean, well, I he was so uhincredible in that part.
Like, holy shit, what acharacter.
Um and maybe that's what it madelike I I loved his performance

(41:11):
because there were times when Iwas just like, I don't know how
to feel about you.

SPEAKER_02 (41:15):
Oh no, you I mean he kind of has an happy ending.
Like he dies, but like in his hethinks he succeeded.
He does get what he wants.
That movie so much.
Technically, I love that movieso much.
I guess.
Um, he thinks he gets what hewants.
Yeah, he thinks he gets what hewants.
But that's all he cares aboutanyway, is thinking he's getting
it.
But that's the thing.
Yeah.
Because he lives in a world ofdelusion the entire time.
Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (41:35):
It's just so interesting.
It's so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 (41:39):
I will say I did really like that movie.
Yeah.
It's very good.
I really like that movie.
Uh, just to save my own ass.
Yeah, totally.
The big one battle after anotherfans are gonna come after you
for that.
No, it was good.
I think it was just it was alittle, it was different than
what I was I think I wasexpecting it to be.
It's very not PTA.
Oh no.
Like, I think it was thebeginning, it was like it was
hard to f You know what it was.
Yeah.

(41:59):
Now that I'm really thinkingabout it, and I will st I will
die on this hill.
Yeah.
I never believed once whenLeonardo DiCaprio would say viva
la revolution.
Oh, I totally disagree.
I'm not a single, not a singlemoment he said it.

(42:37):
I I was like, You're LeonardoDiCaprio.
I think I think he was toofamous for that part.
I I genuinely think that's true.
Because I'm I genuinely thinkthat's true.

SPEAKER_02 (42:45):
In general, not a Leo lover.
Yeah.
But I'm loving Leo in his loserera.
I love Leo playing washed uplosers.

SPEAKER_01 (42:54):
I do too.
Don't get me wrong.

SPEAKER_02 (42:56):
And so what I loved about that movie was I was like,
I'm watching a guy who knows hisbest days are behind him and is
like just falling apart.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anyway, we could we don't haveto talk about it anymore.

SPEAKER_01 (43:11):
I love it so much.
It's great.
We're gonna move on to the finalsegment.
The final segment?
Yeah.
Don't worry.
The final segment has a we'regonna keep talking.
We've been talking.
You can choose from deeperquestions.
Yes, no, and sometimes why.
Uh you can do Lipton Classics oryou can tell a audition horror

(43:31):
story slash beautiful story.
You want to do cheaperquestions?

SPEAKER_02 (43:34):
Yeah, of course.
Okay.
We just talked 45 minutes aboutthe state of America.

SPEAKER_01 (43:39):
Here we go.
Okay.
Sing the theme.

SPEAKER_02 (43:42):
Ooh, here comes deeper questions.
It's getting deep exponentiallyso.

SPEAKER_01 (43:49):
Ooh, that was a good one.
Thanks.

SPEAKER_02 (43:54):
I don't know why.

SPEAKER_01 (43:54):
Well, this is deeper questions, and as the title
implies, the questions godeeper.
These are potentially personal,political, or professional
questions.
Uh this is one question chosenat random.
Oh, okay.
And uh you can answer or not.
It's up to you.

SPEAKER_02 (44:11):
That'd be funny if I was like too deep.

SPEAKER_01 (44:12):
I mean, to I mean, you never know.
I never wanna I never wannacross a line or anything, you
know.
That's why I put it out there atthe beginning.
Uh let me see.
Choose uh number one througheight.

SPEAKER_02 (44:22):
Three.
No.
Six.
Six.
Which one's better?
Be honest.
I don't know.
Which one did you say?
Three or six.

SPEAKER_01 (44:28):
Three or six?
Okay, let me see.
They're both good.

SPEAKER_02 (44:31):
Do you want to read them both and I'll decide?
Is that kind of not in thespirit of the game?

SPEAKER_01 (44:35):
No, that's totally fine.
It's not really a game.
Like, uh, why not?
There's no reason why I can't Ishouldn't do more.
I just usually do it at the end.
So the first one is how doesrace play a part in your work?
Damn.
And the sixth one is what areyour thoughts on nepotism in the
entertainment industry?

SPEAKER_02 (44:49):
Damn.
These are both questions thatI'm sure other people have
really There are some greatquestions.

SPEAKER_01 (44:54):
Great answers to these in the past.

SPEAKER_02 (44:57):
Um I'm gonna lightly touch nepotism nepotism.
And then talk about race more.
Nepotism is interesting.
I think they are linked.
Nepotism.
Okay.
A, I think people really onlyhave a problem with nepotism
when the person's bad.
Like, there's a lot of greatnepot babies who are like,
that's fine.
You're good at acting, so wedon't give a shit.
Um, which is fair.
Yeah.
Um also, I think so often whatpeople just want is to somebody

(45:20):
to be like, yeah, I had anadvantage.
And then we go, yeah, you'reright.
Okay, great.
Yeah.
What we hate is when people arelike, I worked so hard.
In fact, it was harder for me.
That's when no.
We want honesty.
Right.
We want honesty and all anyactor wants.
And I also think that like anygood act.
The reason the world kind ofrolls their eyes at this is like
that's how business workseverywhere.
Yeah.
Your dad owns a company, hehires you.

(45:41):
Like, like you will run thecompany.

SPEAKER_01 (45:43):
Okay, I do audiobooks, and I just read a
statistic the other day thatreally like made me shit my
pants because it made me go, oh,okay.
Yeah.
Totally.
That makes sense.
Which was um only 20% of hiresare gotten through hiring
websites.

SPEAKER_00 (45:57):
Of course.

SPEAKER_01 (45:57):
All others are done through personal reference who
you know, family members.
80% of hiring decisions are madethat way.

SPEAKER_02 (46:05):
Are we calling personal references nepotism?

SPEAKER_01 (46:07):
No, no, I'm just saying that like uh uh you know,
just you have to have knownsomeone connected to the job.

SPEAKER_02 (46:15):
Well, and I think the reason it feels particularly
frustrating for actors is it itis a real shattering of the idea
of a meritocracy, which like Ialways say get with it, actors.
This isn't a meritocracy.
Uh we all know great actors whoaren't working, we all know bad
actors who work a lot.
Like, that's just what it is.
Yeah.
But like the world's not ameritocracy either.
So, like, the idea that actingis the last bastion of that is

(46:35):
kooky bananas.
Like, of course it's not.
So, nepotism ultimately I feelkind of nothing towards because
I'm like, great, if it happens,I'm not gonna shake my fist at
the sky.
That being said, I know actorswho like are going up all the
time against like the samedaughters of famous men, and
those daughters are getting theparts, that would be really

(46:57):
challenging.
So, part of it is I recognizelike uh I'm not going up against
well, whomever.
What's Meg Ryan and DennisQuaid's son?

SPEAKER_01 (47:05):
Uh oh he, you know, I've warmed up to him over the
years, but I used to be.
Not that he's bad, but likethat's everything he does.
I'm like, I think I could havedone that.
Jack Quaid.
Jack Quaid.

SPEAKER_02 (47:13):
Everything Jack Quaid does.
I'm like, I could have donethat.
Yeah.
But like similar.
I'm not, I'm not in thosefucking rooms anyway.
So who gives a shit?
I would love to see you and theboys.
I know, I think it'd be prettygood.
I gotta catch up on that show.
I don't like the more than ones.
Oh, you don't really?
It's a first two.
It's a little too South Park forme in that, like, it's like,
we're gonna skewer everything.
And I'm like, okay, fine.
I can tell white guys made it.

(47:35):
See, there's that spoon feedingthing, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (47:36):
And I'm like, I prefer that over nothing to
race.
Now, race.

SPEAKER_02 (47:42):
I mean, one of the ways race plays a a a big part
in my work is that being agigantic white dude.

SPEAKER_01 (47:52):
Can I just say when you when I saw you I'm huge
enter, I forgot how tall youare.
Everyone forgets how tall I am.

SPEAKER_02 (47:58):
And I like it.
And straight and white and adude.
And so I think one of the mainways race plays a part in my
work is that like I it is anactive practice to remind myself
that like my experience is noteveryone's experience.
You know what I mean?
In a variety of ways.

SPEAKER_03 (48:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (48:19):
Um, I don't know about you, but like I'm from
Portland, Oregon, as I said.
And like Portland, Oregon is adeeply white place where like I
remember I I studied, uh, I dida summer intensive of Meisner,
my senior, my the summer beforemy senior year of college in New
York.
And I remember like riding the Iwas living in Brooklyn and I
remember riding the train andbeing like, I'm the only white

(48:40):
person on this train.
And it didn't necessarily fillme with any emotion other than
that, but it was the realizationof like I've never had that
experience.
Yeah.
I've never had and then likegetting back to Portland riding
the bus and being noticing justnoticing yourself in in an
environment.
Being like, holy smokes.
I and I I uh actor we went to Iwent to school with always said
like the the definition of ablind spot is something you

(49:03):
cannot see until someone tellsyou.
So I I think people areaccountable to their blind spots
once they've been made aware ofthem.
Yeah, but you can't really holdsomeone accountable for
something they are blind tobecause they can't see it.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Um and so like But can I pushback a little bit on this?

SPEAKER_01 (49:20):
In that we have we are living in an information
era.
Yeah.
You can look up anything, yes,but you can also look up
misinformation.
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (49:28):
The information this is we're we're in syndrome.
Syndrome was right in TheIncredibles.
Syndrome! If everyone's super,no one is.
And like everyone has access toevery piece of information, real
or fake, kind of we have accessto nothing.
Yeah.
And and I think no matter howmuch we're on the internet all
the time, like there is nothing,there will never be anything
like someone in your lifesitting down with you and

(49:48):
talking to you and saying, Hey,you're not aware of this, but X.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (49:51):
And me, a person who spends time around you, is
observing this in you.
It's first hand account.
Right.
Nothing is nothing is strongerthan a firsthand account.

SPEAKER_02 (50:01):
Even if it's not personal, just someone you know
and love being like, I've beenthinking about this, and you're
like, Oh, I never thought aboutit that way.
Yeah.
That is going to mean so muchmore to you than reading a post
on Reddit being like, oh, theysaid that thing.
You're gonna go, and then you'regonna move on.
Yeah.
So going to NYU, which was Imoved from Portland to New York
for school, was also the firsttime in my life I had spent
legitimate time within blackcommunity.

(50:22):
Yeah, I had black friends inPortland, but they were always
like one of the two black peopleI knew.
Yeah.
It wasn't, and so like they wereexperiencing a profound sense of
kind of isolation that theyprobably never expressed to me
because I was 19 and didn't knowanything about that.
And they did not feel like theycould express that to me, I'm
sure.
So coming to NYU, where half ofmy class was black, not only was

(50:43):
I around black folks in such anintimate way, I was I was like,
oh, I'm I'm seeing black folksbeing in communion with one
another in a way that I neverexperienced as a young person.

SPEAKER_01 (50:54):
Same.
And I I lived in New York, likethe state of New York my whole
life, and have been living inthis city for like 12 years now.
I think coming up on 12.
I had the same experience.
Going to NYU is a hugelyinformative experience for me in
terms of race.
Yeah.
And having discussions aboutrace.
Like we had some reallyuncomfortable discussions.
Of course.

(51:14):
And I'm so glad we did because Irealized going through it, I was
like, oh, I can survive that.
There's nothing the theconversations about race, they
can't kill you.
Right, right.
And it's only a benefit.

SPEAKER_02 (51:26):
Well, right, and like, and like like um I think
the pr again, kind of I wouldjokingly say now, like the white
guy in me, but I mean thisearnestly, like I think that the
idea that difficultconversations surrounding
identity, whatever it is, arethings to either be avoided or

(51:48):
something you do so that you getthrough them.
I think what I have come torealize in my life in general is
like that is an active practice.
That like to be in this world inanybody is to is to come up
against uncomfortable thingswith people, you know, and
especially in this work, becausewe are doing a job where you're

(52:10):
meeting people really quicklyand really intimately, but you
don't really know them thatwell.
Yeah.
So you might know uh deep partsof their soul, but I I don't
know what makes you laugh.
I don't know where your linesare.
And the the ness what willnecessarily happen is boundaries
will be pushed, lines will becrossed, and then it's about

(52:30):
okay, then what do you do?
Yeah.
So like the idea, I think like,you know, the like 18-year-old
in me who hadn't gone to therapywho was like perfection is
attainable and I can do it.
Oh, I was the same.
Right.
And like, and that was that wasboth like within myself, but
also like in my relationship toother people.
So like trying, like, I thinkagain, like I think a beginning
part of my experience in gradschool was being like, I'm gonna
be the good white guy.

(52:51):
Like, I'm gonna be the white guywho is never the problem.

SPEAKER_01 (52:53):
But is that is maybe this is a thing among amongst
white men.
Like I know this is a thing.
Uh uh about the notion of likeperfection.
I think it is a security thing.
There's something whitesupremacist about it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (53:07):
I think that men, again, I can only speak to white
men, but most of the men I know,regardless of their race, uh I
think we're raised in a societywhere usefulness for men is is
like that's the goal.
And I think it's the reasonthere is such a real mental
health crisis with men, is it'smen feeling useless.
Yeah.
And usefulness is not one's uhpurpose, and usefulness is not

(53:32):
one's reason of yeah, that isnot the reason people exist.
But I think that men especiallycan really struggle with that
feeling of like, if I'm uselessor even worse, if I'm causing
the problem, yeah, fuck, youknow?
And so like I I I remember myfirst year, one of my black
classmates, she came in one dayand her hair was very different

(53:54):
than it was the day before.
It had been in braids and thenit wasn't, and it looked a lot
shorter to me.
Yeah.
And I remember saying, like, oh,did you get a haircut?
Yeah.
And one of my classmates,Jarvis, God bless him.
I also had the distinctprivilege of being in class with
uh a lot of queer black people,yeah, who I I just felt I
learned and and love them sofucking much.

(54:15):
But I remember him being like,You're so white.
And I remember being like, Idon't know what you're talking
about.
And then another one of myclassmates, uh, later that same
day touched that classmate'shair.

SPEAKER_00 (54:24):
Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 (54:25):
And so then this classmate of mine, she brought
us both over and kind of satdown, was like, hey, let I want
to talk about this really quick.
And A, that was not herresponsibility to do that.
Yeah, but like with mosteducation, I do unfortunately
think like the way people learnbest is someone doing more work
than they need to.
Yeah, I agree.

(54:45):
And that's like is that such afair?
No.
No.
Should that be how the world is?
No.
Is that how it is?
I think so.

SPEAKER_01 (54:51):
But what's like what we said before the world is not
a meritocracy.
The world's not a meritocracyand those instances.

SPEAKER_02 (54:57):
Well, and unfortunately, do have she made
the calculation of like it isworth me expending this effort
with these guys who I'm gonna bewith for three years to have
this conversation now, then kindof brush this aside and risk it
escalating in a way that'shappening over and over and
over.
But I remember in thatconversation being receptive, as
receptive as I could be when Iwas 21 and confused.

(55:17):
But I also remember in my headbeing like, Well, I just said
this thing, and that guy touchedyour hair.

SPEAKER_01 (55:22):
So even in- Then why am I being coupled in with this?

SPEAKER_02 (55:24):
Right, like even in that conversation, I was like, I
felt myself trying to, again, Idon't think I was externalizing
it, but I I certainly felt like,well, I'm a degree less racist,
you know.
Yeah.
And I think that like what beingin school with them, what going
through uh 2020 and all ofthese, you know, these real
moments where it was, I feltlike for me, like like

(55:48):
opportunities and moments thatthat it was necessary for me to
like do real deep exploration ofmy relationship with race, was
like uh you grow up, I grew upwith the idea of racism being
like you're a racist and you'rebad.
It's a it's a like it's abinary.
You're racist or you're not.
Yeah, yeah.

(56:08):
And the reality being, like, II'm a white person in America.
Of course, I racism existswithin me.
Like, there's no way it doesn't.
Yeah.
And I think that like that wasreally important to recognize
like like I am not, I will neverbe able to unlearn the the
racist ideology and teaching ofthis country and this world.

(56:31):
Yeah.
So instead of trying to achieve,you know, white person
perfection, it was like, how doI, how do I continue to to
educate and also like becomfortable with the reality
that, like you're saying, like,I will slip up.
I will say something because Idon't know where one person's
line is that's not anotherperson's line.

(56:51):
You know what I mean?
Um, and that's just the reality.
And the best I can do is whenand if someone has the um
courage and space to like say,hey, that thing you said sat
with me a little wrong orwhatever, to like just shut the
fuck up and listen and listenand change.
Yeah.

(57:12):
Because it's really nice to bereally receptive and be a really
good listener and sit on yourhands.
But then if you don't change,yeah, that's then then what's
that?
And again, it's like the blindspot.
If you don't know you didsomething and then someone
alerts you you did something andyou don't change, then it's your
responsibility.
Yeah, you know what I mean?
So, like the last thing I'd sayabout that right now is like one

(57:36):
of the great fucking gifts ofgrad school was like learning
how learning uh reallyprofoundly, like what is my
responsibility and what's not myresponsibility.
And and more than that beinglike how often my impulse might
be to like jump in and help, butthat is really patriarchal and

(57:56):
pretty racist a lot of thetimes, to be like, I'm gonna fix
this for you because I know howto do it.

SPEAKER_01 (58:00):
Yeah.
And and because I know whetherI'm conscious of it or not, that
my position as a white person insociety allots me a certain
amount of power.
Right.
And that I think maybe getcertain things done.
Right.
And it's like, but maybe this ismore about how people are
perceiving the situation versuswho can smooth it out the
fastest.

SPEAKER_02 (58:18):
So, like, so like when I'm in a show, like the
show I just did, like uh the Iwould say it was probably 40%
black actors and 60% whiteactors, and like I feel deeply
comfortable when someone says,Hey, could you help?
or hey, could you whatever,being like, yes, and going for
it.
But also like, I'm not gonnajump in unless someone asks me

(58:41):
to.
And and I think this is aboutrace, but it's also about
patriarchy and like being a biggigantic guy, like, you know, I
I know I saw, I saw how thewomen in my class, I saw how the
black folks in my class lookedat my white male classmates when
they would, you know, step ontoes or jump in all the time or

(59:03):
or fix it.
And I was like, I do not want tobe that guy.
Yeah, you know what I mean?
And like, and like that mightnot be the greatest motivation,
but the truth is like it is itis it has become a lot easier
for me to be like, I'm happy tonot always have to be the
savior.
Yeah, I will be the tool thatpeople ask me to be the moment
they ask me to be it, but I'mnot gonna assume I know what

(59:27):
people need.
Yeah, I'm not gonna assume Iknow what yeah, now I feel very
differently in white spaces.
If I'm around a bunch of whitepeople, I will absolutely be
like, you cannot fucking saythat.
Yeah, yeah.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, because that's myresponsibility.
Because if no one's gonna thereis no one else here.

SPEAKER_01 (59:41):
So, like if I have that thought, I'll I'll jump in.
It's true.
It's there's this great bookcalled White Supremacy and Me by
Layla F.
Said.
She talks about that, which iswhite solidarity, which is how
white people talk to each otherabout race when they're alone.
And that that is actually thespace where the most sort of
like concretizing, is that theword?

(01:00:02):
Like where you sort of likesolidify your your bias because
you are essentially going, isthat okay to another person who
is just as uninformed as youare?
Right.
Um I hope as two white peoplehaving this conversation right
now, though, that we're notdoing that.
I think we're having a prettyopen conversation about it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:18):
Right.
But also it's like, it's like,like, are like frankly, like are
you?
Was that me doing it really?
Frankly, it's like, is yourblack audience gonna get a lot
out of this?
Probably not.
But like maybe some of yourwhite audience.
You know what I mean?
Because like and and this isabout gender, but I think it's
related.
I remember I remember my secondyear of grad school, we like did
this whole thing where we split,we would have all school

(01:00:40):
meetings, and we and we and wewe we we did one about gender,
and so all the women in theschool met, and all the men in
the school met to kind of likebe a space where people could
talk.
And I think it was Oh wait,yeah, we did something like this
too at NYU.
Yeah, yeah.
And it was just grad acting, butyeah.
Oh, okay, yeah.
For us, and it was it was it wasI think tremendously helpful for

(01:01:01):
the women, of course.
And for the men, what becamevery clear very quickly was like
I was one of the people leadingwith a couple other people.
I was like, I am not equipped totalk about these things.
Like, because people were sayingthings that I was like, that's
so fucked up.
But I'm we've said this was aspace where people could talk
honestly, blah, blah, blah.
But there were some men who werein school, not necessarily my
class, who I my first impulsewas to be like, ugh, I can't

(01:01:25):
deal with these guys, they're sosexist, they're so gross.
Yeah, sure.
And then I had the thought, andthis is why I think it relates
to race, I was like, okay,Jacob, if I don't deal with
this, the options are a woman'sgonna have to deal with it.
Or no one's going to, and thenthey're never gonna change.
And that was a real wake-up callto me of like when people who
look like me say things that Ifind either morally abhorrent or

(01:01:48):
just even ignorant, if I'm notthe person to step in to be
like, hey, we need to have aconversation about that, it's
either never gonna be talkedabout and they're never gonna
change, or the bonus is gonnafall on the person who they are
actively being discriminatoryagainst.
You know what I mean?
Um, and that really was animpactful moment for me.
That's great.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:08):
Well, Jacob, that's the end of the episode.
Um, anything you want to plug?
Anything going on right now thatyou're working on?
Um I know you just got off.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:18):
I'm honestly no, like I the last year was the
most I've ever worked as anactor.
Really?

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:23):
The last like It's the least I worked.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:25):
The last like 14 months.
Um, and so I'm back in the cityand I have nothing lined up, and
it's really, really awesome.
Good for you.
Um my partner who's a dancer isin this incre is about to,
they're about to open thisincredible dance theater silent
disco piece called The Circuitthat's gonna be in Dumbo.
I think it's gonna be reallycool.
So I'll plug her because she'sfucking awesome.

(01:02:47):
Awesome.
Um, yeah, I guess just plugging,having these more kind of
conversations.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
I love it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:55):
Okay, bye.
All right, y'all.
That's this week's episode ofthe Working Class Acts podcast.
We'll see you next week.
Bye!