Lucas Iverson

On this week's episode I sit down with an old friend and supremely talented Lucas Iverson. We discuss everything from his time working on HBO Max's second season of The Pitt to our silly (and my embarrassing) history with the Tarantella.

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You can find more info about my work as an actor and voiceover artist on my website at: www.johnmaddaloni.com

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
So, what I was doing last season, I was doing like a
lot of games, like theatergames, like verbal theater
games.
But I thought it would be kindof interesting if we tried a
theater game that we learned atAdelphi.
It's not really a theater game,but the do you remember the
Tarantella?
Let's find out if we rememberthe Tarantella.
I have a story to tell afterthis, but okay.
This might be a train wreck.
I was trying to think of it andI could only think of like 80%

(00:22):
of it this morning.

SPEAKER_01 (00:24):
I have maybe 10.
Oh shit.

SPEAKER_02 (00:26):
Then this is my own.
Let's go.
And we just keep going until oneof us or both of us die.
Yeah, we'll mind meld itsomehow.
Okay.
Ready, ready?

SPEAKER_00 (00:34):
Do you remember an inmiranda?
Do you remember an in?
And the tetting and thespreading of the straw for the
bedding and the fleas that teasein the high pyrenees and the
wine that tastes into the tar?
And the tears and the jeers ofthe young muleteers under the
line of the dark veranda.
Do you remember an inn Miranda?
Do you remember an in?
And the tears and the cheers ofthe young muleteers and the who
haven't got a penny and whoweren't giving any and the

(00:55):
hammer of the twirl of the tin?
And the hip-hop hop and the clapof the penny and the penny of
the bottom.
No, no, no.
The hip-hop happened.
Dancing, glancing, backing andadvancing.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07):
Backing romantic ting with the guitar?
Yes.
Do you remember an inn or do youremember a nin?

unknown (01:20):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21):
Something about the waterfall or something.

SPEAKER_02 (01:23):
Yeah.
Is there a dragon in there?
There's just a dragon in themirror.
I don't know.
Donna would be so upset.
I think she'd be thrilled at howfar we have.
That was a long time ago.

SPEAKER_00 (01:34):
Honestly, I didn't res I didn't expect you to know
any of it.
With how well you behaved inclass.

SPEAKER_02 (01:40):
Welcome to Working Class Acts.

(02:00):
Hello, everybody.
Welcome to the Working ClassActs Podcast.
I'm your host.

SPEAKER_00 (02:06):
John Maloney.

SPEAKER_02 (02:08):
Oh, he did it.
You heard his voice just then.
The person that I'm about tointerview is a lovely.
That was terrible.
I need to start that again.
I am joined today by such alovely human being, an
incredibly talented actor.
We actually met an undergrad ata Delphi University out there on

(02:30):
good old Long Island.
And you can catch him now onseason two of the Emmy
Award-winning HBO Hit The Pit.
Great rhyme.
I am here.
Whoa, I didn't even try that.
I'm here with Lucas Iverson.

SPEAKER_01 (02:44):
Hi.
Hi, John.

SPEAKER_02 (02:45):
It's so good to see you, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 (02:46):
Oh my god, it's been too long, man.
Yeah, man.
It's been a country mile oftimes.

SPEAKER_02 (02:50):
Yeah.
Well, I was trying to rememberthe last time.
I feel like it was pro the lasttime I saw you, I think, was
right before you were going toaudition for grad school.

SPEAKER_01 (03:00):
This was probably true.
Um, I don't know.
We got together at that coffeeplace.
We did.
We talked grad school.
Yeah.
I don't think I saw you when Iwas there for callback weekend
at Edwards.
No, I don't think so.
So it was remember when thatwas.
But I peed next to you on thefifth floor.
I think the day I auditioned,yeah.
Did you?
Or like sometime in that longday of the callbacks, I went to

(03:20):
the bathroom and you were there.
And we did next to each other.

SPEAKER_02 (03:23):
Yes, we talked in the while peeing, which is
controversial.
Did we really?
Oh, good.
Oh, well, but that's just showshow, you know, there's a close
bond here.
I would do that for no otherperson.
Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
That means the world to me.
I feel really included rightnow.

SPEAKER_02 (03:38):
Well, that's amazing.
I mean, you graduated from Yale,the grab program.
How is that whole experiencegetting into there?

SPEAKER_01 (03:44):
I loved it.
Yeah.
I I loved Yale.
Getting into Yale was great too,actually.

SPEAKER_02 (03:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (03:50):
It's fun.
You know, you you find the placethat I think is right for you.
I think it's different foreverybody.
And it just feels like acontinual series of yes.
Yeah.
And and I felt that with Yalevery strongly.

SPEAKER_02 (03:59):
So I feel the same way when with NYU.
It took me like two years to getin, and but there was just a
sense of the place that like I Igelled with and I loved it.
Um up there on the fifth floor.
That fifth floor, that famous.
That famous fifth floor.
Um Lucas.
John.
Let's take it back to thebeginning.

SPEAKER_01 (04:20):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (04:21):
Where were you born?
Where were you from?

SPEAKER_01 (04:22):
Oh my gosh.
That is the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 (04:24):
That is really the beginning.
Um of your time.

SPEAKER_01 (04:26):
Fun, fun, fun.
Uh I was born in Baltimore,Maryland.
Ah yes.
And grew up there and then fledwhen I was 17 to Long Island.
Fled.
Fled.
Couldn't get out of there fastenough.

SPEAKER_02 (04:40):
Did you like growing up in Baltimore?

SPEAKER_01 (04:42):
Um, no.
No.
I mean, yes, because of myfamily.
Of course.
And it just felt like, you know,we were in the city, um, but we
had like a a decent enough,nice, quietish neighborhood.
And um but you still weren'tallowed to like go play outside
a ton.
Really?
You know what I mean?
Um I was also like a very sickchild.

(05:04):
Oh.
So I was feeling frail.
Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_02 (05:10):
Do you mind if I ask you like what what what you did
were were you suffering fromsome sort of ailment or
something?

SPEAKER_01 (05:15):
I was born with a uh birth defect disability thing.
I had a lot of surgeries, I wasin and out of hospitals, was
like BFS with my doctors kind ofthing.
Really?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, who I'm still in touch withnow, and now being on the pit,
so it's like a full.

SPEAKER_02 (05:31):
I was just gonna say, is that like, do you feel
that that sort of experiencemaybe informed 100%?

SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
I mean it didn't inform I don't know if it
informed my character on the pitso much because he is kind of a
jerk.
Um it took me a long I hated himfor a long time of the season.
Yeah.
Um, but being a part ofsomething that gives reverence
to doctors.
Yeah.
What's the word for like whenyou pedestalize something, but

(05:58):
it's right?

SPEAKER_02 (05:59):
Oh, I don't know.
I think reverence is a greatword.

SPEAKER_01 (06:01):
Maybe that is the word.

SPEAKER_02 (06:03):
Put I mean I would just say put up on a pedestal,
but that gives the impressionthat it's like you're you're
raising it to too high of aheight.
Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 (06:10):
That there's this there's this connotation of like
falsehood or something not beingcompletely deserving if we
pedestalize it.
Yeah, yeah.
But it is accurate pedestal.

SPEAKER_02 (06:19):
Oh, it is such a great show, dude.
Honestly, it's like I am so inawe of so many moving parts on
that show.
So many moving parts, so manydifficult scenarios.
Yeah, that the show does alsowhat I really love about the
show is the show does such agreat job of revealing the truth
of like the grief that happensin hospitals, but then like the

(06:42):
comic relief that comes likeright next to these like
horrible events.
Yeah, it's just it's wild towatch, but it feels so authentic
and it's really, really lovely.
I will be honest, I have notgotten to the second season yet.
Okay, I am nearing the end ofthe first and honest well,
honestly, I was like, I binged alot of it yesterday, and then

(07:02):
after a while I had to take abreak because it was just like,
whoa, it's the the up closeshots of incisions of people's
bodies.
I mean, like, it's verydetailed.
Yeah, it's extremely detailed.

SPEAKER_01 (07:13):
I mean, like, I would never ask, I never ask
anybody to watch this show.
Yeah, you know what I mean?
I never hold it against somebodyif they haven't.
I know that it can be reallyintense.
I experienced it as a viewer atfirst, yeah, and I was like,
whoa, I need to chill the f outa little bit.
Yeah, because it it's gruesomeand graphic and also so
emotional at points.
Yeah.
So it's uh it's it's a big askto ask somebody to like watch

(07:37):
this for me.
Yeah, and that just feels sowell.

SPEAKER_02 (07:40):
Also, the the interesting aspect of it too is
like in a sort of 24 style,yeah, it's just hour after hour
after hour.
So you just like feel thismounting tension that feels
constant.
Um, but yeah, dude, it's it's sogood.
I'm so proud of you.
Um so Baltimore, then off toAdelphi.

SPEAKER_01 (08:02):
Then off to Adelphi.
Yes.
Um, I started doing a little bitof theater in Baltimore.

SPEAKER_02 (08:06):
I was gonna say, yeah, where did you catch the
proverbial bug?

SPEAKER_01 (08:09):
Great question.
I really struggled with friendsgrowing up.
Me too.
Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (08:15):
That's kind of how I yeah, that's how I sort of found
friends too.

SPEAKER_01 (08:19):
There was this one night where my mom was driving
me home from school and I waslike playing on my Game Boy or
something.
Of course, alone and miserable.

SPEAKER_02 (08:27):
I got my Game Boy over there.

SPEAKER_01 (08:28):
I've got a color that's in my being over there.
That's gorgeous.
Um and I uh was sad and alone,and she was like, You should
audition for this school play.
Oh.
And I was like, okay.
And rarely me saying yes tosomething instead of no.

SPEAKER_02 (08:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (08:43):
Um, and then I learned a Shell Silverstein poem
for when I was in middle schoolfor the high school play.
Can you believe it?
Look at that.
Ambitious.
Wait, what was the play?
Bleacher Bums.

SPEAKER_02 (08:53):
Bleacher Bums?
Did you know about this?
No, but I I love the title.

SPEAKER_01 (08:57):
I don't know the playwright.
I'm sorry to say, that's soembarrassing.
It's like a one-act comedy thattakes place over the course of a
baseball game.
Oh, fantastic.
It's like romances, I think, ifI remember right, come together
and fall apart.
I was not in the main cast.

SPEAKER_02 (09:11):
You were out there doing a poem.

SPEAKER_01 (09:14):
Well, they were trying to cast an ensemble of
dancing baseball players.
Oh.
Because they wanted to do itdinner theater style.

SPEAKER_02 (09:20):
Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 (09:21):
And you would be a waiter and you'd have to do one
dance where you toss bats backand forth.

SPEAKER_02 (09:25):
Oh, so this was like at a proper theater.
This wasn't like fighting.
This was my high school.
Oh, it was your high school.
Middle school, high school.
Totally is.
You're like, okay, and you'realso gonna be cooking the food.

SPEAKER_00 (09:38):
But I mean, like, I went to Williamstown, you know
what I mean?
Do me too.
If you say one is you're like,I'll do anything.

SPEAKER_02 (09:48):
I have to do everything, apparently.

SPEAKER_01 (09:50):
And I'll just say, both great experiences.
Yeah, yeah.
Can't complain.

SPEAKER_02 (09:54):
You know what's so funny about that?
I was talking to uh my mygirlfriend just now before this,
and I was like, I think I'mgonna try and do the Tarantella
with uh with Lucas.
But um what's funny why thatconnects to Williamstown is
because when I was there theywere doing a production.
When were you there?
Uh I was uh there 2011.
Okay.
And uh, but we were one of theproductions they were doing was

(10:16):
a doll's house.
And in that, um, what's thelead's name?
Uh Nina or Nora?
Nora, thank you.
Nora is dis dances theTarantella.

SPEAKER_00 (10:26):
Terantella, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 (10:27):
I did not know that there, I didn't know the doll's
house well enough at the time,which is like embarrassing.
But we were backstage, we weredoing some all-night strike or
whatever.
God, um, and people were like,Yeah, the Tarantella is very
hard.
I'm interested to see how uhLily Rabe does it, because she

(10:48):
was playing Nora at the time,and I was like, Oh, I can do the
Tarantella.
And people were like, Really?
And I was like, Yeah, I could doit right now.
They're like, serious?
I literally started doing andthey're like, What the fuck?
And I'm like, Do you rememberAnin Miranda?
Do you remember Anin's?
And like I get like halfwaythrough it, and one of them just

(11:08):
steps in and goes, What are youdoing?
And I was like, Come on, comeon, the Tarantella.
The Tarantella's a dance.
I mean, literally, though, thatis what happened.
I'm like, it is one of the topfive most embarrassing things
because I had Williamstown wassuch a like such a back and
forth experience for me becauseI was very like I was very

(11:30):
grateful to be there.
Uh I got to be a part of thecabaret, which was really fun.
Yeah.
Uh, and Louis Black was hostingat the time.
It was really it was just like areally great time, and also got
to sing backup for like reallysome incredible people, even
Gavin Creel, which was like sucha treat.
He is he was maybe present.
He was in such an incredible,incredible performer and singer.

(11:53):
Um, but uh that it was before Iwas like drinking or partying or
anything, and as you know,Williamstown is in the middle of
nowhere.
Yeah, yeah.
Um it's a beautiful little town,but like the culture is like at
the end of the day, you go tothe bar and that's how you hang
out.
And like I was just not, firstof all, I was not of age.
Uh and also I wasn't drinking.
So you can't get me, cops.

SPEAKER_00 (12:13):
Um Statue of Limitations.

SPEAKER_02 (12:15):
Statue of Limitations for a thing I did
not do.
But it but it was an amazing Iscot to see Sam Rockwell in
Streetcarn in Desire.
Like it was a great season andit was like such an amazing
space.
Um but as you know were you werethere as an apprentice?

SPEAKER_01 (12:31):
I was there as an apprentice in 2016, yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (12:34):
Oh, so you see so you did a few wait, when okay,
back to Adelphi.

SPEAKER_01 (12:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (12:38):
What year were you again in the first time?

SPEAKER_01 (12:40):
I started in 2013.
Didn't you graduate in 2013?
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (12:43):
No, 2013.
Oh, that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 (12:45):
So you were so your first year when I was we were
the first generational gap, butwe had so many mutual friends.
Yes, we did.
That I think I learned of youand met you that same year that
I began attending.

SPEAKER_02 (12:55):
Yeah, definitely.
Like I definitely I had a lot ofa lot of my closest friends, I
would say, were in the yearsbelow me.
Right.
Um but Tim.
Yeah, Tim.
Steve was in your class, Ithink.
Uh Michael.
Michael, uh Kate McLeod.
Yeah.
Who's been on the podcast?

SPEAKER_01 (13:14):
Oh, shout out Kate McLeod.

SPEAKER_02 (13:15):
Big fan.
So Adelphi, you got out ofAdelphi.

SPEAKER_01 (13:20):
Got out of a Delphi.
Jumped into the real world.
Jumped, I missed graduationbecause I had a regional theater
gig.
And I was so happy about that.
Where where was it?
Um, it was the Texas ShakespeareFestival.
Fantastic.
It was uh you know, you do theUrta's and all of that stuff.
Or not the Urda's.
What is that thing that Maggietakes us to?

SPEAKER_02 (13:37):
Um You know what I'm talking about?

SPEAKER_01 (13:38):
I do know.
Did you do this as well?

SPEAKER_02 (13:40):
Well, I did one that was in was it in Memphis?
Yes, yes, yes.
I know exactly what it is, andI'm totally blanking to.
Um but yeah, it's like a unifiedaudition.
Yes, yes, yes, exactly.
Several regional theaters, somegrad schools, but I think that
one's mainly regional theaters.

SPEAKER_01 (13:53):
Yeah, Urta's is predominantly grad schools.
Whatever the Urda equivalent.
No, it's not the Urda's, it's uhsomething else.
Um we went to that something wewent to that something else.
And um and there I was lookingat all the jobs in advance, and
I was like, ooh, the TexasShakespeare Festival looks
great.
Ooh, Richard III and Cyroneau deBergerac.
Oh, now and I got it, and thatwas so lucky.

(14:17):
Uh I was little intern, andthere little intern?
I was just a little intern.

SPEAKER_02 (14:22):
Oh, oh, I was like, who is that in Cyrene O or
Richard III?

SPEAKER_01 (14:26):
The one character that overlaps.

SPEAKER_02 (14:29):
And I was intern, excuse me.
I was little intern in RichardIII and Cyrino.

SPEAKER_00 (14:36):
You don't remember him?
He kills Richard.
Huge part.
Not to brag or little intern,huge part.
No such thing as a small actor.
Um that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 (14:53):
Wait, so what was the intern?
It was an internship for TexasShakespeare?

SPEAKER_01 (14:58):
Yes.
So there's like different typesof internships that they have in
their thing.
And you're you have smallerparts in the main plays, like uh
somebody's gotta be themessengers, you know, the the
people who are.

SPEAKER_02 (15:08):
Oh, so it's kind of like Williamstowns had like an
intern program.
Intern where it was like morethan like non-union grad school.

SPEAKER_01 (15:16):
They they had the non-ac thing, and that had a
little more prestige than those.
Of course.
Um, but this is like, oh, you'rein much-doo, and you have to
give the book when they're doingthe hiding scene, and you come
in and deliver this book.
This guy, George Judy, I thinkhe's uh a professor at LSU, he
directed that.
Amazing.
Yeah, I I just fell in love withum that community.

(15:37):
I thought the plays were really,really good.
And I met who what would becomemy girlfriend for the next five
and a half years there.
Wow.
So that was also so formative.
Lovely.
And we're still very close.

SPEAKER_02 (15:48):
That's great.

SPEAKER_01 (15:49):
That's great.
It was great.
It was such a beautiful, likelife opening experience straight
out of underground.

SPEAKER_02 (15:54):
And that's what the theater should be for.
And that's what it should be foropening experiences.

SPEAKER_01 (15:57):
For the people on stage, screw everybody else.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (16:47):
So did you come back to New York City after that?

SPEAKER_01 (16:50):
Yep, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_02 (16:51):
Um back to New York.
Yeah, what was what was like thethe gap between you doing that
regional gig and and decidingyou wanted to go on to grad
school?
Was it a long period of time?
Probably not.

SPEAKER_01 (17:03):
I was I think it was like three to four years.
It was in that third or fourthyear that um Leah, my partner at
the time, sat me down and waslike, I think you need to
consider grad school.
She had so she had gone toCarnegie Mellon.
Oh, great, and had gottenrepresentation out of school and
was constantly auditioning forthings and working, and uh being

(17:25):
an excellent, amazing actor thatshe is, so talented and
hardworking, well like really agreat sort of role model for me
while I was dating her, beinglike, Wow, you got this
opportunity and you'recapitalizing on it.
Yeah, how do I get there?
Yeah, and I really tried to getrepresentation.
I tried so hard.

SPEAKER_02 (17:42):
Did you not get anything out of the Adele 5?

SPEAKER_01 (17:44):
No, if I remember right from Showcase, we had one
agent RSVP, and then that persondidn't show up.
So we had like a couple ofclasses kind of thing.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, it was um tough.

SPEAKER_02 (17:55):
Yeah, yeah.
Showcase stuff out of undergradprograms, it's like it's yeah,
it can be really difficultbecause you're like you're young
and you're like looking for somesort of outside validation or or
even just a tether to theoutside world that's going to
say, yeah, you're gonna keepmoving forward.
And I I for myself, I Ifreelanced with some people

(18:16):
after Adelphi, and then it justfizzled out.
And that sort of like, did youfeel that sort of like abyss
almost of like, how do I moveforward from here?
Or totally.

SPEAKER_01 (18:28):
I mean, the the image that I used constantly was
that um it in comparison withLeah and myself, right?
She had access to opportunitiesthat I I want to just be able to
get in those rooms.
Yeah, not don't need to book ajob, just wanted to be able to
audition at that level.
Len, I was you know, ushering atthe public and stuff and
watching plays all the time andbeing like, how do I get yeah,

(18:48):
how do you how do I make sureyou know that I exist?

SPEAKER_02 (18:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (18:51):
And it felt like there was this giant iron wall,
infinite high, infinite wide,infinite below, can't dig under.
Yeah, and if you can get to theother side there, yeah.
Tried everything.
I feel like I had a shovel, Ihad some dynamite.
Um, it it felt like if you couldget to the other side, that was
the land of bounty.
Yeah, there's such access andprivilege from from at least
from where I was at that momentin time.

(19:13):
And I said, grass is greener, Iwant to be there, and everything
I tried, I couldn't do it.
Yeah, so I was working from timeto time on my own, just getting
auditions and grinding andhustling and and scraping up
these small parts at these localregional theaters and stuff.
Um, but Leah was the person whowas like, I think you deserve
more than what you have rightnow, yeah, and should consider

(19:35):
grad school.
Yeah.
And I was like, There's no shotI get into a single grad school.
As if.

SPEAKER_02 (19:42):
Why did you think that?
Because you felt like that thatyou were hitting so many walls,
like how could it possibly howcould that be different?

SPEAKER_01 (19:48):
I think the with the the uh catalyst for that
conversation exactly was that Ihad gotten really far with this
agent, um, who I won't name, andum the agent sat me down in a
meeting and said, Look, I justwith what you look like, I don't
know where I could put you.
Um and I was like, okay, and Icarried that bruise for a really

(20:10):
good up until when we werepreparing for the Yale showcase.
Yeah.
I was like, I don't think I'mgonna get representation.
Yeah.
That's always the fear.

SPEAKER_02 (20:18):
I mean, that's always the fear.
And it's like, yes,representation is incredibly
helpful.
And I know so many actors andactresses and performers who
figure it out absolutely.
Without representation, there isno one way.
And and I think I say all thisbecause I think we need to
destigmatize this notion thatlike representation is the end

(20:39):
all be all of your career, uh,because it's just not true.
I agree.
Um, but it is very helpful, butit it does that thing uh that
you were just experiencing oflike putting all of this
unnecessary pressure on you tolike somehow perform better than
just being yourself.
Yeah.
Um, and because it like it'slike clockwork every year, the

(21:03):
grad students in these programs,uh which I'm sure you've seen
and and like at my own, whereit's just like everyone is high
strung.
Oh my god.
And it's it's really hard.
It's really hard to just likekeep a level head when you're
around so many people who are inthat position uh because
everyone's vying forrepresentation.

(21:24):
And it's so funny because it'slike you can't guess what they
want or what they're lookingfor, so it doesn't matter.
Like you just have to go outthere and be you, and like
that's gonna be it, which youknow easier said than that.

SPEAKER_01 (21:35):
I think also like a very key component is um
thinking of the future, not interms of your career as an
actor, but your life as anartist.
Yes, you know, yes, and and themore Well so I was just back to
talk to the Yale kids about likeleaving, right?
And I think this is reallyinteresting too, talking about
agents and showcases and blahblah blah blah blah.

(21:56):
So I I think struggled the mostwith representation again out of
the Yale showcase of my class.
I still got representation, weall did.
Yeah, but um I got the fewestresponses.

SPEAKER_02 (22:08):
And so it ultimately I got I only I I got like one
and a half, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 (22:13):
Same, same.
I got one and a half.
Yeah, I got one person who I'mwith now who I door.
Me too.
That's the door my manager.

SPEAKER_02 (22:20):
I it's like the people who see you see you.
Completely and like that it goon, go on.
You really do.
I'm happy to hear from this.

SPEAKER_01 (22:27):
It's just so the half was another company who I
also won't name.
Uh being like, Hey, are youwilling to wait?
We really loved your work.
Yeah.
Are you willing to wait a fewmonths to see if we have space?

SPEAKER_02 (22:38):
Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 (22:38):
And I was like, so I'm a I'm a second choice.

SPEAKER_02 (22:42):
Yeah.
And did that sort of did thathurt you psychologically in a
did that hurt youpsychologically?
Is that like a psychpsychological for you?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (22:55):
Yes, absolutely.
Would that be with you for therest of your life?
It w it was.
And I um had to sort of killacting in my heart.
Oh yeah.
A little bit.
Because I thought I felt, andthis was self-imposed.
The school did not do this.
My classmates did not do this.
I was so lucky to be in schoolwith like 15 of the most
generous, talented, kindestsouls, um, who I think are

(23:19):
amazing and I still love themall so dearly.
Um I put this pressure solely onmyself.
Yeah.
That if I don't getrepresentation, I won't be an
actor.
And I never thought of it socoherently, but that was my
underlying emotional truth.
Yeah, you know.
So I was like, oh God, I'llnever be an actor.

SPEAKER_02 (23:37):
But that's a subconscious thing, like like
going back to the representationthing.
It is a subconscious thing thatsomehow gets ingrained to in
into actors who are joining theindustry, like, I need
representation to live, or elseI'm not legitimate in some way,
you know, which is ridiculous.
In in many ways, I know so manypeople who don't have

(23:57):
representation and work way morethan me.

SPEAKER_01 (23:59):
Sam, and some of the best actors I know don't have
representation right now, youknow?
And they're either just like,I'm but I know one guy who's
just like, yeah, I I am notreally into into it.
I don't need it right now, Idon't want to be giving my money
away.
Hey, and so I'm just saying no.
And I feel like he's only gottenbetter and better in his craft,
yeah, without which I think is areally interesting dynamic too.

(24:21):
Yeah.
Um yeah, all this to say that itjust it takes one person, and
then once you're out there, ifyou're if you've got that one
person, or even if not, yeah, umthe goal that you had in grad
school cannot be the goal thatyou have when you leave, right?
Like in grad school, you'relike, Yeah, oh, I get to commit

(24:42):
myself every day to being thebest actor I can possibly be.

SPEAKER_02 (24:47):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (24:48):
To growing as an actor.
Yeah.
And this is my life for thesethree, four years.
Yeah.
And then you leave and you havethe foundation in support while
you're there, yeah, and then itvanishes.
Yeah, it's like the rug ispulled out from beneath you.
Yeah.
And trying to keep that goalwhen you're out in the world
without the foundation thatallows you to progress in that
thing is, I think, so harmful topeople.

(25:09):
Talk about a trauma, you knowwhat I mean?
Yeah, yeah.
Um, and so I was just talking tothe the current Yale students
about to graduate about how someof the people I saw who were
like, I'm so ready to leave, Ithink struggled a lot in
leaving.
Um and it all balanced out afterlike the six, eight month mark.
But I think that initial here Igo, yeah, and then seeing the

(25:31):
reality of the world issomething else.

SPEAKER_02 (25:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (25:33):
And so I was like, well, if I kill acting, back to
this.
If I kill it in my heart, if Ikill it in my heart, then the
goal becomes how can I have abeautiful, fulfilling, vigorous
life for myself.
And that's what I did for thatyear, and that was like the
happiest year of my life.

SPEAKER_02 (25:48):
I think that's so beautiful, dude.
Because like that's sointeresting, because like I've
been struggling with that.
Like this past year was like theone of the deadest years for me.
Oh, yeah.
And it's hard not to take thatpersonally or to feel like my
who I am is not needed in theworld, like entertainment-wise
or what have you, which isridiculous because I'm a

(26:09):
straight cisgendered white male.
Like, there will always beopportunity for me.
There are always is.
Um, and but that being said, islike when you start when you
define yourself like you defineyour happiness around the job,
it's it's almost impossible.
Even with this commercial shootthat I just did the other day, I
mentioned to you, like I felt sofulfilled.

(26:30):
And it was it was really nice tobe on a set for those two days
and to do the work and just havefun and meet some really great
people.
And I'm now out of it, and I'mlike sort of riding that little
high of of being off of it.
And and but it's like I don'tknow where my point is really in
this, and that it's just likesomething that I'm still working
on.
Yeah.
That sort of letting go.

(26:51):
And like, I think I'm gettingbetter at it about like just
saying fuck it and entering theroom.
This room, because it's where Iself-tape.
Um I see the hooks.
There they are.
Yeah.
But just the notion of just likeenter the room as you are.
I'm trying to do be that as muchas possible.
Even if I'm like having a badday, yeah, just being like, hey,

(27:12):
John Matalone 5.8.
Like, if I'm like dad, like thisis just who I am today.
But the thing is, I think thatreads way more honest.
I think so too.
And just like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (27:23):
There's something about I think honesty and fun
are both shortcuts to like thisauthenticity thing that people
respond to with tapes.
Do you know?
Totally.
Totally.
My first ever screen test wasfor a small part in what would
become a big movie.
Maybe I shouldn't say the name.
I won't say the name.
Has it come out?

(27:43):
Yes, it's out.
Um and obviously I'm not a youcan guess.

SPEAKER_02 (27:48):
Was it Dune part two?
Wait, did I honestly just be?
Oh my god, I but there's there'san open.
You were silent in a way thatmade me go, did I really just
hit it on the first go?

SPEAKER_00 (28:00):
Um, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 (28:02):
It was something we were supposed to replace Timothy
Chalabet.

SPEAKER_00 (28:05):
Well, it was a different one.

SPEAKER_01 (28:08):
Timmy wanted what, 15 mil.
Yeah, god.
And um I anyway, joking, sorryTimmy.
Uh well the they wanted like aslate, and I was driving back
from a weekend visiting a friendat Chautauqua with like a whole
car full of friends.
Sure.
And this I had to do this andlike send it off, and they

(28:29):
needed a specific slate that wasnot one of my pre-recorded.
Oh, sure.
So I had done the tape for theinitial, and I was like, okay,
great, send that off, and I'lljust attach this slate.
And then I'm driving and mymanager calls, and he's like, We
need a different slate.
You need to say this.
Oh my god.
And I was like, Oh my god, whatdo I do?
We pull over and there's like aplayground on the side of the
highway, and there's a nowthere's a video of me like at

(28:50):
the top of a children's slide,being like, Hi, Lucas Iverson,
6'2, New York, and whateverother information I needed.
And then it zooms out, it pan,the person walks back, and I
slide down the slide.

SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
And that got me to co it go into the room for that.

SPEAKER_02 (29:04):
That is hilarious.
Isn't that insane?
I love that.
Yeah, maybe that's what I shoulddo.
I just drive out to a big fieldsomewhere and like just do it
from like a mile away.
John Buttle.
And then you start cropping.
I just start cutting the wheat.
I have a sigh with me.
So I'd remember it's it'srememberable.

(29:24):
Well, I think it's fun.

SPEAKER_01 (29:26):
Memorable.

SPEAKER_02 (29:28):
Rememberable.

SPEAKER_01 (29:29):
As in I did it the first time.
I I think like that's the samething about that honesty of
like, oh, this guy is not hereto impress or blah blah blah
blah blah.

SPEAKER_02 (29:38):
Also, he's like not home right now.
So we can still like do thiswhere he is.
I can do it.

SPEAKER_01 (29:44):
Hear the highway.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, it was it was I thinkthere's something about just
like the fun and freedom.
Both of these things arefreedom, right?
Yeah, they are is what it is.
Freedom within the form of thetape.

SPEAKER_02 (29:57):
Totally, totally.
It's so funny.
You learn like as an actor, thething you learn is just like the
hardest thing you will ever haveto do on stage is just be
yourself.
It's like this, you think it'sit's it's that weird thing of
like you watch these greatperformances, or like
particularly like characterperformances, where like you see
a transformative actor doingtheir thing, and it's amazing,

(30:17):
but it's like that's like such asmall pocket of the characters
that you play are the ones thatare like transformative.
The rest of it is really likejust be how you would be in that
moment, and it will be thecharacter, like people will see
the character.

SPEAKER_01 (30:34):
Play the what's what's that thing?
Um Ron Van Lew talks about howuh there's like a a phase of
negotiation when you begin anyprocess, yeah.
And the actor speaks to thecharacter within themselves and

(31:12):
tries to identify what is yours,what is mine, where do we
overlap.
Yeah, and when I'm borrowingfrom one of us, which of us am I
borrowing from?
Yeah.
And I love that, and I thinkthat that's so true.
Because most of the time, it'sthat Merrill quote, right, about
like the elevator, and all thecharacters just ride the
elevator up.
They're already in you.

(31:33):
I like that.
Um, I think that it you're justlike, which parts of me are are
you?
Yeah.
Yep.
And really, and then you'relike, what are the other parts?
But those are you too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (31:44):
To bring it to the surface.
All you have is you to workfrom.
So true.
Yeah.
Remember that, kids.
This is audition horror story.

SPEAKER_01 (31:59):
Once upon a time.
Once upon a time.
Um I was doing a self-tape atthe end of a week of self-tapes.
Oh god.
It was all it was like four filmand TV stuff and then one play.
Sure.
And I do the play kind of lastminute.
Uh-huh.
I've been busy.

(32:19):
I also have like two jobs thatI'm working.
Of course.
I'm like, oh, sweat, sweat,sweat.
Um, just trying to figure outwhat to do.
I learned the sides what Ithought was well enough.

SPEAKER_02 (32:31):
Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_01 (32:32):
Send it off.

SPEAKER_02 (32:33):
As the first uh pickup in the story.

SPEAKER_01 (32:36):
Yeah, you can see where this is going.
I thought I knew them wellenough.
And um the next day, which Ibelieve was like a Saturday,
uh-huh.
Um, my manager gets an emailfrom the casting director, who I
won't also name.
Oh no.
And it's like, I am writing dueto my shocked response at

(32:56):
Lucas's tape.
I understand that actors havethe pressures of other tapes and
blah blah blah blah blah andblah blah blah blah blah, and
that they are not required tomemorize their lines.
However, I am appalled thatsomeone who has graduated from
Yale, like Lucas had, would beso inconsiderate with the
specific language that it was uma tirade like that?

(33:20):
I mean, like I have it saved.
Oh my god, dude.
I'm so sorry.
Well, it's okay.
It be it's a good story.

SPEAKER_02 (33:26):
You're gonna laugh at them now, all the way to the
bank.
He's on a pit now.

SPEAKER_00 (33:31):
I feel no bad feelings to this casting
director.

SPEAKER_01 (33:34):
No, no, he hates But it was it was like intense, and
it was like this playwrightwrites with a scalpel, and uh, I
would anticipate that an actorwould understand that to the
point where it's like Lucas'slanguage was so inaccurate that
I can only assume that it islaziness or uh what was the
other thing?

(33:54):
Disregard or worse, both.

SPEAKER_02 (33:57):
Oh my god.
But is that necessary?

SPEAKER_01 (34:01):
Well, I think I don't understand.

SPEAKER_02 (34:03):
Like that's not if you if if you're seeing
something that's like notpeaking your fans, because I
know you.
I know you are a great actor.
That's very kind of.
And also, we do uh it's hardtimes, folks.
We are a generation that has tohold several part-time jobs and
do and memorize stuff like I'msorry, it's just not the same as

(34:25):
it used to be in terms ofpreparation, time of
preparation.
Everything is about efficiencynow and convenience.
I'm sorry.
I'm s oh man, that makes me madfor the time.

SPEAKER_00 (34:33):
Metalone 2028.

SPEAKER_02 (34:35):
Oh my god, it kills me.
I'm just like, sorry, but I'm sosorry that happened to you.
It's not fair.

SPEAKER_01 (34:40):
It's not over.
Oh shit.
Um I think I hit all the bignotes from the email.
Oh my god.
So what I do is I get that, I'mmortified.
I he my manager reads it to meon the phone.
I'm on speaker because my withmy friend.
Oh she's hearing this too.
And I I'm about to go back towork.
I call out sick, I go home, Imemorize the scenes word

(35:00):
perfect.
I construct, um, I constructlike a detailed list of things.
You know that um that clip thatlike I'm not on TikTok, but that
like TikTok uses all the time ofJeremy Allen White and the bear
being like some a switch flippedto me, and I was like, okay,
fuck you, watch this.
That was that was me.

SPEAKER_00 (35:21):
And I'm like, let me get in the kitchen.

SPEAKER_02 (35:24):
You send them food, they're like, I don't
understand.
I made the food.
Yeah, yeah.
It's like, what no, what?

SPEAKER_00 (35:30):
It's like Michelin grade food.

SPEAKER_02 (35:32):
It's like it's excellent, but what the fuck is
this now?
Fuck you, watch this.
So you just go hard into it.

SPEAKER_01 (35:39):
Yeah, learn it perfect.
Yeah, tape it again the nextmorning, do maybe one of one of
the best self-tapes of my life,send it off with an apology.
We send it via WeTransferbecause the you know, the same.
Yeah, yeah, it's it's neverdownloaded.
They never downloaded it.
It was never downloaded, andthen get this though.

(35:59):
This is where it's crazy.
A month later, I'm in LA.
I've booked the pit.
Yeah.
So I this is old news.
Oh my god.
Then um that person's partner,that's a two people on this
team.
Oh, sure.
Contacts my manager and is like,hey, a veil check is Lucas free
for that project.
For the one that got the page.
For the one that I got thehorrible thing on.
And then we were like, no,sorry.

(36:20):
He's what we thought was eightepisodes at the time.
He's doing eight episodes of thepit, and it ended up being way
more, thank goodness.
Oh, nice, dude.
Um my manager's like, no, sorry,he's busy.
He's booked on the pit.
And the person's like, oh, okay.
Also, we seem to not be able tofind the second round of tapes
that he sent.
Could you resend those for usjust for our records?

SPEAKER_02 (36:40):
Um So they knew you were on the pit.

SPEAKER_01 (36:42):
So they knew I was on the pit.

SPEAKER_02 (36:44):
They knew they wanted to turn around and go,
let's get get in while thisguy's hot.

SPEAKER_01 (36:48):
Oh, maybe that is it.

SPEAKER_02 (36:49):
I bet.
I mean, that wouldn't shock meat all.

SPEAKER_01 (36:52):
It could be that.
I it was just.
What did you think, though?
Well, it was such a mystery tome.
I think that was it.
It you're it's very possible.
And that provides a lot ofanswers.
The questions that we had waslike Casting Director A sent
that email.

SPEAKER_02 (37:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (37:05):
Hates my guts, presumably.
Forever and ever.
Clearly.
And casting director B, partner,knows that there's a second set
of tapes, but that second setwas never watched.

SPEAKER_02 (37:15):
So they saw it in their email and decided not to
download it.

SPEAKER_01 (37:18):
We sent it to just casting director A, not the
team.
Oh, oh.
So how do they know?

SPEAKER_02 (37:24):
Well, they probably do you think uh talked it, but
maybe that he or she, I don'tknow, whatever.
Uh they probably must havementioned it and been like, he
did send a second.
And they were like, You fired.
We didn't want the second tape.
It's on the front.

SPEAKER_01 (37:42):
Well, I don't know what it is, but it was so That
is wild, dude.
And then we get we got to getthe avail check after all of
that.

SPEAKER_02 (37:48):
Oh my god, but you were like, sorry, booked and
blessed.
Sorry, booked booked andblessed.
Yeah, sorry, Karma.
It was insane.
Yeah.
Oh my god, dude.
That's wow, you've had someexperiences with people like
telling you really cruelly, likewhat they say.
That's like part of theindustry.
I don't know if that's unique tome though.

(38:08):
No, it's just I mean, it's it'sa thing.
I oh, I've definitely had somepeople say things like me, my
body.
Oh, I maybe I don't want to be.
I won't mention one part of thisthing.
I will mention someone else thatsaid this.
Deal.
But I did like uh I've hadpeople make comments about my
hairy chest.

SPEAKER_01 (38:28):
Wait, your hairy chest is so luscious.

SPEAKER_02 (38:30):
Thank you.
I am proud of it.
Yeah.
Look at it.

SPEAKER_01 (38:33):
As you should be.

SPEAKER_02 (38:34):
Look at that.
I'm very Italian.

SPEAKER_01 (38:36):
Few people can do what you do there.
It is a unique.

SPEAKER_02 (38:41):
But it's this interest, like, people will like
the industry creates aperception of what you think you
need to look like to be oncamera or to be on stage or
whatever.
What is the consideredattractive or like base I don't
look for actors?
Yeah.
And the hairy chest one, I getit a lot.
It's just a problem.

(39:02):
Just people making commentsabout it.
In one instance, someone hadexpressed that it was a like
quote unquote problem, or wouldnot be viewed as professional or
something.
Yeah, it's very weird.
Fuck off.
I have hair.

SPEAKER_01 (39:17):
Especially because John does all of his scenes in
every project shirtless.
I do.

SPEAKER_02 (39:22):
I'm constantly my shirt is constantly off.

SPEAKER_01 (39:24):
Yeah, yeah.
He's what we call a nudistartist these days.
So I I guess I understand inthat.

SPEAKER_02 (39:30):
Maybe that's the route I need to go.
It's like I'll really stand outall my slates.
I'm buttass naked.
Fuck you.
Watch this.
Hi, John Metalone.
I'm like having a hard day.
John Mendaloni 5.8.
Naked uh New York City.

SPEAKER_01 (39:43):
Uh John Mendelone 5.8.
Um, yes, I'll cut my hair.
No, I want more clothes.

SPEAKER_02 (39:49):
This hair, though.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nothing else.
I pointed to my hair on my headfor those just listening.
Just listening.

SPEAKER_01 (39:59):
It was the head hair.

SPEAKER_02 (40:01):
Wow.
Okay, that's a pretty wildhorror story, but kind of
weirdly has uh like a karmicending in.
I guess.
I guess.

SPEAKER_01 (40:10):
I don't know.
I don't know if there's agreater message there.
I'm inclined to say that there'snot, and it's all just chaos.

SPEAKER_02 (40:16):
Did you feel like any sense of redemption though,
in that?
In in he in hearing them likebecause you like given that
message, yeah, it felt like avery definitive no.
Well, it was and then all of asudden a yes.

SPEAKER_01 (40:33):
I I'm remembering with one part that I left out,
which is just that this castingdirector said in their email, I
really don't want to have to putan asterisk next to his name
this early on in his career.
So it felt like a blacklisting.
So to then talk about this.
Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 (40:50):
I well keep going.
I'll just like the notion ofblacklisting or I I agree
completely.

SPEAKER_01 (40:55):
So to then get that turnaround, I think the thing
that it felt like um it feltlike validation that if I do my
Jeremy Allen White switch, if Iflip that thing, um I I do have
some agency in this world.

SPEAKER_02 (41:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (41:14):
Which maybe is a lie.

SPEAKER_02 (41:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (41:15):
Oh but felt good.
You know what I mean?
In that moment, to be like,okay, somebody presented a
problem to me.
I listened graciously, Iexplained myself and said, This
is a miscommunication.
Yeah.
More than anything.
Yeah.
I apologize.
Here's my apology made manifest,so you have more than my word to
go on.
Yeah.
In these tapes.

(41:36):
Yeah.
And that was enough to causesome sort of chain reaction.
Interesting.
And so that was the affirmation.
The wound, the trauma, stillthere.

SPEAKER_02 (41:46):
I can see it.
You're crying a little bit.
But I think that is such ahealthy way of looking at it.
Like that, there's somethingabout that that sounds very um
It's like you, you, like yousaid, you took on whatever the
the note that was in there underall of the I think unnecessary
additives.
Um and just went, I can dobetter.

(42:08):
And I hope you can see that.
Uh and you took the time to doit again.
So yeah, maybe there was a chainreaction.
I wouldn't I wouldn't besurprised to find that's true.

SPEAKER_01 (42:17):
I hope so.
I've gone in for that partner acouple other times since then.
So that's good.
Well, that's good.
And I'm hoping that that mainperson comes around eventually.
There's always space in my heartfor you if you hear this.
I would love to work with you atsome point.

SPEAKER_02 (42:30):
What a sweetheart.
Even even And I'm still sorry.
You don't need to say sorryanymore.
You feel it, though.
No, I know.
But that's the thing.
Like, it's just like we'resensitive creatures, actors, you
know?
Like, we really feel what youtell us.
You know, like we'll take it toheart.
We'll take it to heart foryears.

(42:52):
Seriously.

SPEAKER_01 (42:53):
Seriously.
Um there's so few.
Oh.

SPEAKER_02 (42:56):
I'm sorry, I was just remembering the thing that
I wanted to say from beforeabout the blacklisting, the
notion of blacklisting, which islike I think this like old
Hollywood sort of notion thathas like McCarthyism era.
Yes, what are we doing with itnow?
No, it really is.
But like the uh just the notionthat like certain individuals
who hold power, it like I'm notgonna deny, yeah, casting

(43:18):
directors hold power, producershold power.
Absolutely.
But we as actors also hold powerbecause like the show cannot get
made without us, like it can't,like all like no no part of the
show can be or film orproduction can subsist if a
department is removed.

(43:39):
It will be wildly less quality.
Agreed.
And so I think too, sometimesbecause we're living in a world
where there's just like a adesperate need, or maybe not
even a need, just a desperatewant for like content to
constantly be putting out there.
Right.
There's it feels like there's notime.
And I feel like that feeling isgetting shorter and shorter and

(44:00):
shorter, what people think, likehow fast things need to get
done.
And I think that's why the thejumping into a new topic around
AI.
Oh my god.
Like the notion of AI being likethis immediate thing that can
create faster, but it's likeit's not better, it's not human.
And also, then what's the pointat the end of the day?

(44:21):
You know?
I think if it's all just forefficiency sake, right.
What's the point of creatingart?

SPEAKER_01 (44:29):
What's that what's that saying?
It's like really good, reallycheap, really fast.
You can only have two.

SPEAKER_02 (44:35):
Ooh.
I like that.
I I hear that though.
And if really good, really fast,or really cheap.

SPEAKER_01 (44:40):
So if you want to do it good and cheap, it's gotta
take its time.
Yeah.
If you want to do it good andfast, it's gonna be expensive.
Yeah.
And if you don't want good, thenyou can do the other signal.

SPEAKER_02 (44:52):
You can do it really fast and cheap.

SPEAKER_01 (44:54):
And that's sort of what it feels like AI is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think also that that is sotrue.
There's something representativeon film and TV that I think we
itch for that we get fully inthe theater.
Yeah.
Which is um the quality ofliveness.
There's a magic to liveness.

SPEAKER_02 (45:14):
Oh my god, yes.
It's like um well, I was justgonna say, like uh being on this
set the other day and like thetime between when you perform
and when you don't, it reallystruck me how like God, I really
do love theater.
It really is the actor's medium.
Yeah.
It's really nice to be able tojust go and run the full gamut

(45:35):
of this character's life,whatever it is over the course
of just like 90 minutes or likeeven a lifetime, depending on
what the production or thecharacter is.
There's just something soliberating and there's just a a
kinetic energy to it that is soinfectious and like, oh my god,
give me more.
I agree completely.
That when you're doing film andtelevision, it's like it really

(45:55):
is just hurry up and wait, andlike being able to turn on when
it's like we're going, even atthe pace that we're moving.

SPEAKER_01 (46:03):
It's um and I think ultimately, like um well, now
we're sort of getting into likethe difference between theater
and film and TV.

SPEAKER_02 (46:10):
Yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 (46:11):
Which I learned so much about over those seven
months in LA shooting the show.

SPEAKER_02 (46:16):
I bet.

SPEAKER_01 (46:17):
Um, obviously I've done theater my entire life,
right?
Before the pit, I had done fourlines as a co-star on the Gilded
Age.
Oh, nice.
And then to jump from that to Xamount of episodes on the pit,
like a season of television,yeah, yeah.
And joining the main cast ofthese people.

SPEAKER_02 (46:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (46:36):
Is insane.
Yeah.
It's an insane jump.
And I still to this point haveonly seen, I'll confess to you,
here, um, two episodes of theseason.
Because I'm so I when I when Iwe watch those screeners, I see
myself learning the job on thejob.

SPEAKER_02 (46:53):
That's so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 (46:54):
And I'm so intensely like Martha Graham level,
dissatisfied with my work onthat show.
Um really?
Yes.
And the response has been reallygood, and I'm lucky for that
because I didn't know what I wasdoing, and I don't know if I
still do.
But the the difference is sointeresting.
It's like, um, here's what Ilearned.

(47:15):
Here's a good story.
Please.
So day one, I am playing thisnew med student, right?
My guy is a gunner.
I I find out about this allwhile I'm getting my costume
fitting.
Uh-huh.
Like it's it felt like Iauditioned for a different
version of the character than Ifound out I would be playing.
Oh, interesting.
And that ended up becoming truebecause they ended up rewriting
the end of the character, but wecan talk about that too, too.

SPEAKER_02 (47:35):
So having to l like learn who the character is now.
Through word of mouth.
Yeah, as it's being developedlike on set, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 (47:43):
This is the other thing.
Okay, so there's so many thingsto talk about.
Please, I love it.
I love it.
One big principle is with TV,you get one episode at a time.

SPEAKER_02 (47:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (47:52):
So you don't see what your character's doing in
episode 15.

SPEAKER_02 (47:56):
So you don't know what the arc means.

SPEAKER_01 (47:57):
You don't know the arc.
And you know that there's thisactors love, love, love, love,
love an arc.
To have an arc and givethemselves the if they know
where they land, they can givethemselves the furthest possible
distance to fall.

SPEAKER_02 (48:10):
For Noah?

SPEAKER_01 (48:11):
I think so, because uh they weren't done writing
this season, and I they ended upThat's even more impressive.
They ended up making somesubstantial changes part way
through.
Yeah.
I hope I'm allowed to say that.
I think I am.
Uh yes, so I think even Noahdoesn't fully know the I think
he has some ideas.
He's a writer on the show,obviously.

SPEAKER_02 (48:29):
Um, he's a writer on the show as well.

SPEAKER_01 (48:31):
Yes, so in season talented.
He is insane.
Insane.
And as a director, he's amazing.
He's directing as well.
He directs, he writes, he acts.
I clearly did not do enoughresearch.

SPEAKER_02 (48:42):
I'm like, Noah, I know his name is Noah.

SPEAKER_01 (48:45):
Yeah, that's true.
And I love that man.
Yeah.
Um I bet.
I have such strong affection forhim.
Um, yes, so you don't get yourarc.
Yeah.
So you you can't plant things,right?
You can't set little seeds or dolittle actions that then pay off
later.
Yeah.
Hardly.
Um, additionally, so the firstday that I was going to be
shooting, uh-huh.
One thing about the Pip is we'reall on that sound stage, unless

(49:08):
you're doing exteriors, in whichcase we fly you out to
Pittsburgh and we shoot.
And you do it on Pittsburgh, ohwow, we do it in Pittsburgh,
which was awesome.
Awesome.
All in one week.
I'd love to hear that.
I did all three days.
It was such a great experience.
That's so cool.
And uh otherwise, you're justthere.
And it's this very realisticset.
Nina, our set designer, amazing,skillful.
Doctors come in and they'relike, we could treat people

(49:30):
here, you know.
I keep lip brushing them.

SPEAKER_02 (49:32):
Like you keep licking it.
Give it a little kiss.

SPEAKER_01 (49:37):
And um, you're constantly visible on the set of
the pit when some other scene isshooting.
Yeah.
Right.
So if you're doing XYZ over hereand that's what we shoot today,
but we're gonna be getting toyou tomorrow and you're in the
background, well then you haveto be there both days in the
background.
There's a lot of backgroundwork.

SPEAKER_02 (49:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
You can basically see the wholefloor, like any given shot.

SPEAKER_01 (50:01):
It's so transparent, which I think in season two, I I
saw still of episode six, whichis a nurse's episode.
Yeah.
And where they cut from onenurse treating on somebody to a
nurse like walking somebody downa hallway to another nurse
treating somebody in the roombehind, and they're all like
looking at each other throughthe glass.
Really beautiful, powerfulvisual storytelling.
Yeah.
Our DP Jojo, she's incredible.
Um, anyways, so I was told I wasgonna be doing background on day

(50:24):
one, and that my real scenewouldn't start till Monday.
We started shooting Friday, June13th.
We have the weekends off, so Iwas like, great, I don't have to
shoot my scene until Monday.
So we're doing a wonder um tostart the season where Robbie
and Shan are like walking backinto the pit.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah.
And uh, I'm like, okay, this isgonna take all day.

(50:44):
John Wells is an amazingdirector, he's being so specific
and he loves his takes.
Thank God.
Um so they're like going throughit, and I'm like sort of
watching, learning.
I've had one day on aprofessional set before this,
yeah, and then it's lunch, andI'm like, wow, that was so
interesting.
You see, I've had to do CPR inthe background for a little bit.
And then um we cut to cut tolunch, and we get a text like,

(51:07):
hey, we're moving fast, yourscene's happening in an hour.

SPEAKER_02 (51:11):
Oh my god.
So you have to do you know thescene at all?
Yes, I'm I'm freaked, so Imemorized the whole episode.
Yeah, of course.
So we wow, okay, so thepressure's on.

SPEAKER_01 (51:21):
Pressure's way on.
We go to uh and I'm also likemeeting these people who I've
seen on TV.
Yeah, you know what I mean?
Such a weird thing, and nowwe're gonna be working together.

SPEAKER_02 (51:29):
That probably feels very surreal too.
Just like yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (51:32):
And you there's no real time to get over it.
You just have to sort of say yesand go.

SPEAKER_02 (51:36):
Which is what we did.

SPEAKER_01 (51:37):
So we like went to Shabana's dressing room, I
believe.
And it was her, Garen, and I.
And then Irene is also in thescene, but we couldn't get her,
or she was somewhere else, orsomething.
So it's the three of us readingin for Irene's lines too, and
we're just like going throughdoing what we think the
blocking's gonna be, yeah, goingover the lines over and over
again.
I'm screaming into a pillow atone point.
I'm like, this is gonna fuckingso I feel so crazy.

(52:03):
Then we go and we startshooting, and it is crazy.
Now back to the main topic athand, which is the difference
between theater and acting.
Ah, yes, yes, yes.
So I'm Yale's model is like I dosomething to make you feel
something.

SPEAKER_02 (52:18):
Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 (52:19):
And you are the thing that matters, not what I'm
doing.

SPEAKER_02 (52:21):
You're always trying to change the other person.
Yeah, yes, affect the target.
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (52:25):
Yep.
And uh so I'm sending my energyto this other person, Garen in
this case, and I want to makehim feel I think Ogilvy wants to
make Whitaker feel like I'mgrinding his bones into dust for
saying the wrong thing rightnow.

SPEAKER_02 (52:39):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (52:40):
Which I think is a very right for that character,
from what I understand of thatcharacter.
And I was like, let me just trythis.
Yeah.
So we start the scene, we'regoing through it.
It's we're trying to save thisperson, it's high stakes.
Um, he says something, and Icorrect him.

SPEAKER_02 (52:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (52:54):
And I shoot my energy to him, and it wasn't
vocally too loud, but yeah.
It wasn't energetically tooloud, or it wasn't visually too
loud, but energetically.
I could feel it like a like ahot knife through butter.

SPEAKER_02 (53:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (53:05):
And I was like, But that's not what we do.
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 (53:12):
Like as a theater performer, so you were feeling
like it was too much energy.

SPEAKER_01 (53:18):
And just in you know that like sort of it's not quite
tactile, but that visceralenergetic exchange between
actors with the camera rightthere.
I was like, oh, that the volumeis too loud, and not in any
tangible way, just in what I wasdoing, yeah.
It was not the room and it wasnot the scene.

(53:39):
So then I'm like stranded.
There goes my technique.
Yeah.
And I'm like trying to send myenergy, but dilute it by like
looking at the monitor.
So now the arrow is not goingboom, it's going like trying all
this stuff.
I f I get home after shootingthat scene.
I call my Yale teachers and I'mlike, hey, Gregory, I think that

(53:59):
I fucked that up.
And he was like, Yeah, you know,you you can't send your energy
in the way you can in theater.
Yeah.
Here's why.
Ron Van Lou.
Acting is not what you do orwhat I do, it's a thing that
happens between us.
And that beautiful livenessfeeling, the audience gets to
experience that same thingbetween you.
Yeah.
On camera, they're using a shotof me and a shot of you, and

(54:20):
it's like, take two and take sixover here.
Yeah.
So it's this Frankensteinconnection.
Yeah.
The story is told solely throughthe image of the connection.
The audience, unless it's atour, doesn't actually get to
experience that liveness betweenyou at all.
Yeah.
They don't see the ball beingthrown, they see the picture of
the ball being thrown.

SPEAKER_02 (54:37):
That's what Bob Krakower says in Israel.
We tell stories through picturesin film and television.
I just didn't realize how truethat is.
It's it's it's hard to sort oflike turn it's not even like
turning off the training oranything.
Like it's all there, but it justit exists in a way that's like

(54:58):
because I had to do this on thatcommercial suit recently too.
Just like, oh yeah, I gotta kindof bring down the like I was
like projecting.
And I was just like, oh dude,dude, like cool down, breathe.
Easy.
It's re it yeah, it's it's it iseasier than you think.
It will be.
And I put that in quotes.
Yes, require that is a betterway of saying it.

(55:19):
It requires more ease.

SPEAKER_01 (55:20):
Or I I think it um it reads ease better.
Yeah.
The camera.
Ease reads better than effort.

SPEAKER_02 (55:29):
Yes.
So then if what you're feelingfeels real.
Yes.
Which which is the real mindfuck sometimes of uh of of
acting on camera is just likenot trying to to oversell it or
something.

SPEAKER_01 (55:44):
I remember I went to um ADR one day.

SPEAKER_02 (55:47):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (55:48):
And we do it periodically while we're
shooting, you know.
Uh it's all there on the WarnerBrothers lot, so it's not a far
trip.
You you come into work early oryou stay late, or you come in on
a day that you have off.
Yeah.
And um I went and I had to dothis one line for the scene
where I give somebody bad newsin a very kind of cro crass way.
Um, which recently went out andthe whole internet got so mad at

(56:13):
me.
Oh no, what?
Oh, my character.
Oh, okay, good.
But here's here's what I saw.
Oh, good, good, good.
Good, good, good.
And those are different people.
That's a different part of you.
Yeah.
Well, the negotiation stage isstill on going.
Um so so what I saw was this,right?
I was with Garen in this scene.
Garen has been acting since hewas like a teenager on camera.
He was like young Dracula inBBC.

(56:35):
He's storied, experienced, anamazing, amazing actor.
I love that guy.
I look up to him tremendously.
And um remind me who does heplay?
He plays Whitaker.

SPEAKER_02 (56:43):
I love him.
He's so good.
Okay, I thought that wasWhitaker.
He's so good on the show.
I really he's one of myfavorites on the show.
He's so good.

SPEAKER_01 (56:49):
He got he gets an upgrade in season two, so I
think you'll you'll enjoy.
Um, we're doing this scene.
I I see the footage of me, andwhat I see, this is camera,
yeah, or your camera.
Let's do your camera.
Okay.
No, for them.
Let's do this camera.
Yeah, yeah.
Do it.
This is camera, and I'm lookinglike this to see the rest of the
hospital and see what's readyfor me, what's next.
But the picture that you'regetting, you're getting this.

(57:11):
Yeah.
So Garen is now um camera.
Yep.
And I'm over there.
And Garen is like getting thebad news, and he's like, This,
what?
And what the camera gets is likeway more availability than that.
So in theater school, I'm like,I see this thing, I do it all
the way.
And now there's this addedcomponent of um the audience

(57:34):
being not something that can bethey can't be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 (57:36):
They're not feeling on the fourth wall.
No.
They're every wall, they're atevery angle, depending on where
they choose to put the camera.
The camera is.
So it's like, yeah, it's thatmind fuck of like having to look
over here when in actuality, ifyou're playing within the space,
the person is like over there,you it like further over.
Yeah, it's like we're cheatingit.
It will look like you're lookingover there, but you're ha you

(57:59):
have to look here for it to makesense visually.

SPEAKER_01 (58:02):
And if you're lucky enough to have like a great
actor, that person will go toyour site.
Exactly.
Which we are we are fortunateenough to have on the back.
Yeah, yeah.
Everybody's so generous.
But it's that thing of like,okay, so this is my new
understanding of technique, andit's about generosity and
inclusion and access to me.
What gives that thing and allthe people watching who I want

(58:22):
to be moved by this story thebest possible access to me?
Yeah.
And how do I have that sense oftruth that I hone in grad
school?
Which makes me want to do this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right?
But I think eventually, likewhat I see in Noah, right, is
the ability to have both.
Yes.
And I think I think eventuallyyou do come back around to

(58:44):
where, like, there was this onetime so incredibly expressive
without doing much.

SPEAKER_02 (58:49):
Anything.
It's it's so it's really, reallyincredible to watch what he's
doing.

SPEAKER_01 (58:53):
And he's an artist's artist.
Yeah.
Like we had so many greatconversations.
Uh I don't even know where tobegin.
One of my favorite things abouthim is I sometimes on set.
I hope this isn't outing him.
Um I'll text him and ask him ifthis is okay to say.
Even if it's not, we can cut it.
But um, one of the things thathe does on set is I see him go
like this.
Oh, yeah.
Sometimes before a take.
Yeah.
And eventually I was like, hey,what is that?

(59:16):
Yeah, what is that?
And he was like, Oh, I workedwith an actor, and I'm blanking
on the name of the actor who heworked with.
But that actor told he saw thatactor doing that, somebody he
really respected.
That person told the story abouthow when Michelangelo was
painting this the roof of theSistine Chapel.
Yeah, yeah.
Every day he would like offer uphis hands to God and say, Lord,

(59:36):
rid me of myself so that I mayplease thee.
Wow.
Which is now like Noah's go-tothing before a take sometimes.
When he when he feels that hehimself is getting in the way,
yeah.
His desire, his ego, etc., heasks to be rid of it.

SPEAKER_02 (59:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (59:55):
So that he may better serve the story.
And if that's not a theateractor, through and through,
yeah, but his skill set is somasterful.
There was this one time we weredoing this scene in a trauma
pay, and um there we could hearin video village that they're
like talking about the Sean'snot quite working, not quite
working.
Noah's like about to startworking on something.
He looks at the camera, he says,Amy, are you on a 50?

(01:00:18):
And Amy goes, Yeah, camera up.
And Noah goes.
And then the whole room, VideoVillage, goes, Oh, perfect!

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:25):
Oh my god.
But then that's a pro.
That's a fucking pro rightthere.
He knows exactly what the framelooks like.
He knows the picture withouteven seeing it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:33):
Nope.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:34):
That's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:35):
That's 390 episodes of ER for you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:37):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:38):
I mean, that's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:40):
It's but that's but that's the other thing.
That's the thing that I want tostart really learning more about
is the is the technique ofcamera.
Same.
Because like the lens, the thesimple change of a lens has
total different ramificationsfor the scene.
Oh my god.
What it looks like, how you'repositioned within the frame.
It's really it's uh such anincredible.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:00):
And an actor's responsibility to truth changes
depending on the lens, dependingon the distance, depending on
the shot.
And eventually, I think the realpros, which I do not consider
myself part of yet, um, knowhe's a pro.
I watch this show and I go, ooh,didn't feel that frame.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:17):
But watching yourself on camera is always
hard.
It's always difficult.
Really hard.
You know, I was gonna say uh uhwhen you said the uh what Noah
does for with his hands and andGod, uh it reminded me of
something Dr.
Brian Rose, which was uh duringa rehearsal one day, he just
pulled out one, you know, he hewas always pulling out quips and
like great one-liners.

(01:01:40):
Uh someone uh was asking, like,should I can I start the scene
now?
And Dr.
Brian Rose goes, Go when the Godinside you moves.
And I was like, whoa.
Yeah, but that stuck with me.
I was like, that's a beautifulsentiment.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:57):
He kind of drips profundity.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:59):
Oh my god, yes, he does.
Yeah.
I hope he's well wherever he is.
I'm sure I hope he is too.
Miss him.
Lucas.
John.
I think this is the end of theepisode, which is crazy to me,
but dude, oh god, we need tohang out more.
We definitely missed it.
So good to see you again.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:15):
So good to see you, buddy.
I've missed you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:17):
Yeah, I've missed you too, man.
Why are we missing each other?
We live in the same city, welive pretty close to each other.
It's 25 minutes to get here, soit's really not bad.
Honestly, dude, so good to seeyou.
Such a treat.
Thank you for having me.
Else you want to like uh plugbeyond the pit or anything else
you're you're working on?

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:33):
If anybody's in DC, you can come see Othello in May.
Me and Wendell Pierce.
Dude, really, good for you, man.
And a couple other great peoplefrom Yale and some other awesome
actors at STC.
Um, some other episodes of someother shows I'm about to shoot,
but you'll see I don't know whenthat's coming out.
So I don't know if I'm allowedto talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:50):
Hey, that's totally fine.
When is uh when is Othello?

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:52):
Did you say Um We will begin playing in May,
mid-May?
It's at the Shakespeare TheaterCompany.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:57):
Oh, perfect.
That's great.
That's perfect.
That should come out uh rightaround that time.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:02):
Anything else to plug?
Um, John Matalone is anincredible actor who I have
looked up to because of histalent and his heart and his
kindness for a really long time.
Luke is.
So I'd love to plug thispodcast.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:15):
Dude, that really that you're gonna get me choked
up.
That really means a lot to me,man.
It's all true.
Love you, dude.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:20):
Love you, man.
Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:22):
Of course.
All right, y'all.
That's this week.
I'm gonna cry.
That's this week's episode ofthe Working Class Acts podcast.
We'll catch you next week.