Rowan Vickers

On this week's episode I sit down with one of my favorite people, Rowan Vickers. We discuss everything from his storied career working in theaters across the country to which soda brands match best with each swear word.

If you're looking for handmade wooden home decor then my Etsy shop is perfect for you! For a look at my catalog go to: JohnMadWoodworking.Etsy.com

You can find more info about my work as an actor and voiceover artist on my website at: www.johnmaddaloni.com

Thanks for listening to this week's episode. Be sure to rate the show, enable automatic downloads and, if you're interested in becoming a donor, you can go to workingclassacts.com and press the support button at the top right corner of the page to donate today!

Support the show

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
This is where we tell a story, one word each,
until uh it's a story.
Okay, let's do it.
And here we go.
Who starts?
Uh if you'd you would like to dothe honors, yeah, go for it.

SPEAKER_04 (00:11):
All right.
I'll go.
I gotta go classic.
Okay, here we go.

SPEAKER_02 (00:13):
Oh my god.
Once upon a time there was a boywho was very stupid and uh dumb.

SPEAKER_03 (00:23):
So he went to the school where he proceeded to
Phil the school with theprincipal was very angry with
the boy.
So he took him out inside oneword out to the field and

(00:53):
executed his revenge, which tookfour hours to complete he then
the principal that did executeturned into monster.

SPEAKER_02 (01:29):
The monster then disappeared.
And we don't know what hismotives might be.

SPEAKER_03 (01:41):
Oh that was a good sorry, that went really dark
there.
No, that was good.

SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
Hey, you never know where it's gonna go.
You know, sometimes you justgotta let it out.
Sometimes kids are stupid.
It's true, and principles willexecute them and turn into
monsters and things of legend.
That was really disarming.
That was good.
Hello, and welcome to workingclass acts.

SPEAKER_04 (02:28):
Um career highlights would be uh understudying uh in
the Broadway production of LobbyHero in 2018.
I did I did the first nationaltour of Tina, the Tina Turner
musical.
Um I've done some plays offBroadway, I did a world premiere
at New York Theater Workshop, Idid a New York premiere at the
New Group, um, I got to do uh anin-rep doing picnic and comeback

(02:49):
little Sheba with uh TransportGroup.
Uh um regionally I got to workat uh the California Shakespeare
Theater, Denver Center, StudioTheater in DC, Pittsburgh Public
Theater, um, Santa CruzShakespeare.
Um and in terms of TV and film,I I've I have appeared and then
very quickly disappeared on onscreens on I got a couple of

(03:11):
things.
Well that tends to happenbetween the scenes.
Yes, exactly.
I got to do a little appearanceon a show called Silo, which was
for Apple TV.
Oh, dope.
Um uh Instinct for CBS, um a plauh uh a TV show called May Day
for Discovery, and then I I wasalso in a feature for life for
lifetime called uh Yes YesLabor, Lies and Murder.

(03:32):
Um and then I'm I also recentlydid a uh an indie short that was
written and directed by ChelseaMarkantel, who's a Juilliard
playwright, and that'll becoming out later this this
spring.

SPEAKER_02 (03:42):
Um Well you heard it all from him just then.
It's Rowan Vickers.

SPEAKER_01 (03:48):
How are you doing, buddy?
I'm good, man.
Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 (03:50):
And thanks for coming on.
Wait, so wait, you understudiedwas the for Lobby Hero?
Was that the one with MichaelSarah?
Yep.
Oh my god, how was thatexperience?

SPEAKER_04 (03:57):
Yeah, it was amazing.
It was great.
I understudied Chris Evans andMichael Sarah in that.

SPEAKER_02 (04:01):
Oh my god, Chris Evans was in that too.
And um wait, the other actor toois an amazing actor.
I'm always oh my god, he's sogood on uh Atlanta.
He is so fucking good on that.
Um so Rowan.
Where are you from?

SPEAKER_03 (04:16):
Take us back to the beginning.
I'm a mic.
Tell us who Rowan is.

SPEAKER_04 (04:19):
Um, I was born in Canada.
Um, really?
Yeah, I know that.
I was born in in London,Ontario.
Um uh my parents are Bermudian,they um and they they moved they
moved to Canada to go touniversity.
They had me and my sistersthere.
Um so I grew up in in Canadauntil I was 10, and then we
moved back to Bermuda uh thesummer I turned 11.
Wow.
Um so yes, and then so Bermuda'swhere I spent my formative

(04:42):
years.
Um and then I went I came to NewYork City from from high school.

SPEAKER_02 (04:47):
Wow.
Yeah, very cool, very cool.
It's is Bermuda does it havemuch of like a theater scene out
there, or uh I know that you andyour wife and my partner uh used
to do uh uh some theater uh youhad a little theater company
going on there for a couplesummers.

SPEAKER_04 (05:03):
Yes, yeah, no, there's a there's a wonderful um
community theater uh culture inBermuda.
And um there's a there's awonderful the Gilbert and
Sullivan Society and the uh uhBMDS they call the Bermuda
Musical Dramatic Society.
They um they they're they'regreat and um they produce a lot
of really wonderful communitytheater.
That's awesome.
And they they bring a lot ofgreat people from the UK to to
work on their productions and umit's awesome for you for young

(05:26):
people to be in the it's great.
Um but yeah, we um a few yearsago um staged a production of
the Glass Menagerie for theBermuda Festival.
Oh I love it.
And then um that that was early2020, which then you know
obviously the world changed verysoon thereafter with with COVID,
and so then we turned ourattention to these summers to to
summer outreach programs forBermudian students.

(05:47):
And hopefully we made a a greatimpact on on those kids who who
kept coming back year afteryear.
And we formed relationships withthem.
You know, we we met some of themwhen they were 10, and then the
last program we did they wouldhave been 14.
We did it four summers in a row.
So you know, you really get toknow these kids.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, and so to watch them likegrow and change and evolve and
become you know, awesome youngadults was was something that

(06:08):
kind of took both uh Leah andmyself kind of by surprise.
Yeah, yeah.
We didn't necessarily expectthat, so that was kind of that's
awesome, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (06:15):
That's amazing.
I I work with um from time totime the 52nd Street Project
here in New York City, and it issuch a joy to watch these kids
like learn the basics ofcreating theater and just
telling stories.
And kids are so fucking funny,dude.
They they they have no barriers,they'll say what's ever in their
mind, and they are so creativetoo.
It's like what happens when weget to adulthood?

(06:36):
We kind of like we sort ofsquash it in ourselves, or it's
squashed in us, and then youhave to like re reintroduce
yourself to your creativity in aweird way.

SPEAKER_04 (06:46):
Yeah, yeah.
No, the kid they get it, man.
They uh yeah, and they getstories, you know.
They uh they they navigate theirlife as a story, right?
And yeah, they're immersed in TVshows and movies, and you know
that's how we navigate our lifeis through a story.
So, you know, you you guide alittle kid through a a sort of
guided improvisation, and youknow, you get them to uh you
know wander into a cave and seewhat you discover in the cave.

(07:07):
Like they they their mind opensup and they start to get really
excited, and then they theystart to get more curious about
what they don't yet understand.
Yeah, yeah.
And we we focused our summer thesummer program specifically on
on Shakespeare to try and keepShakespeare Bermuda because
there was there was a reallywonderful thing um when I was
growing up there called the uhuh International Schools

(07:28):
Shakespeare Festival, and umBermuda took part in it, and
it's schools across the world umperform, you know, a bridge
Shakespeare play sort of all atonce in the sort of like
international festival.
Oh that's great throughShakespeare.
Yeah, that's an amazing thing.
And so uh over the years, uhwhen I was a little when I was a
kid uh you know, in high schoolthere, we did several
productions and it was a bigsort of formative part of my uh

(07:50):
life, and and it's it was nolonger operational in Bermuda,
and I thought that was a greatshame.
And so I wanted to we wanted touse these summers to sort of you
know keep Shakespeare alive andwork.
Yeah, and but you know, a lot ofkids find Shakespeare very dense
and impenetrable and scary andintimidating, right?
They don't care, right?

SPEAKER_02 (08:05):
Um I'm an adult and I still find it that way some
from time to time.

SPEAKER_04 (08:09):
Who doesn't, right?
But um so we just tried toapproach everything in the
spirit of like play and fun,yeah.
And you know, it's not aboutbeing good or impressing
anybody, it's not about havingall the right or interesting
answers, it's about asking theinteresting questions and just
getting curious, right?
Yeah, and you tell that to alittle kid and and you reinforce
that in the way that you playgames and you reinforce that

(08:30):
with your own behavior, yeah.
And suddenly the kid startsgetting excited about what they
don't yet understand, ratherintimidated by it.
Totally.
That's just cool, and that'sthat's something that the kids
can take into regardless ofwhere they go in life, you know.
Regardless of if they go intothe theater or not, you know,
that's not the point.
The point was to sort of yeah,yeah, and let them encounter
Shakespeare, let them encountersomething they're really scared

(08:51):
of in a way that's fun.

SPEAKER_02 (08:53):
Yeah, totally, totally.
What so when did you startgetting into the theater arts?
Was it in Bermuda or were youlike, did you always aspire to
go to New York or yeah?

SPEAKER_04 (09:02):
No, I I got bit I got bit early.
I got I was Oh yes, wait.

SPEAKER_02 (09:05):
When did you get the bug?
Right.
I got I ask it every everyepisode.
I sh I almost didn't say it.
Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_04 (09:11):
They uh I got the bug early.
I was in third grade.
I and it's because I had anawesome I had an awesome third
grade teacher.
Um I love that.
So I was still living in Canada.
There's a there's a wonderful umCanadian uh author.
Her name's Lois Burdett, and sheThat's a great name.
Uh yeah, yeah.
Lois Burdett.
Right?
Um The Glass Manette.

(09:32):
Yes, exactly.
No, she she um I think she'sstill with us.
She um adapts and or has adaptedum Shakespeare's plays into sort
of storybook form for youngchildren, yeah.
Primarily children like underunder 10, I would say.
And my third grade teacher, uhthe school that I went to, every
year she would stage this sortof storybook version of a
Shakespeare play with her class.
It's awesome, right?

(09:53):
Um and uh my class did Romeo andJuliet, and I I just was um I
became obsessed by it.
You know, I was just um I Iwould come home every day and
and watch the Zefferelliversion, the movie version of
Romeo and Juliet, like onrepeat.
My like my parents make jokesthat it was like I'd watch it
all and then I'd like be calledto the table, and then I'd run

(10:14):
back and like watch it again orwatch specific scenes and I'd
pull out my my dad's completeworks, and yeah, and you know, I
was just sort of um enamored bythe mystery of it all.
Yeah, yeah.
Um and the the notion of likestepping inside of a story was
like insane, it was amazing tome.
Um and it just sort of uh yeah,never never let go of me from

(10:35):
there.
So I I I got it quite early andGod bless my parents.
I just have really supportive,amazing parents.
And they they now to be fair,like my there were artists in my
family too.
My my granddad was an operasinger, yeah, and uh he sang a
lot of the great tenor roles atyou know the best opera houses
in in the world.
And my his one of his sons, myuncle Bill, who was in the Glass

(10:56):
Menager, is an actor as well.
Yeah, and he he's had uh youknow him and his wife had very
illustrious careers at the umStratford Festival and the Shaw
Festival in Canada.
Oh, they've they've they'veworked their whole life in
Canada.

SPEAKER_02 (11:06):
So uh my brother uh and his wife, my sister-in-law,
they got married uh like in umNiagara on the lake.
Oh yeah, yeah.
So I I walked right but reallyyeah, it's a gorgeous little
town.
Beautiful.
Oh my god, I love it.
I love it so much.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh my god, the vineyards, it'smiles and miles and miles of
vineyards.
It's so cool.
No, it's uh but yeah, but justto say that I I walked past it.

SPEAKER_03 (11:31):
I've seen it, I've seen it, been there.

SPEAKER_02 (11:32):
I saw it from afar through the woods.

SPEAKER_04 (11:34):
Yeah, no, so they worked there like their whole
careers.
I'm I would see productions oftheirs growing up.
So like the no all this is tosay is like the notion of
someone being an actor or havinga life in the arts was not
something that was like foreignto my household.
It wasn't like, you know, be adoctor or a lawyer.
I was I was really lucky.
I had very supportive, awesomeparents who stoked that that
fire in me.
And so yeah, so when I was stilllittle and still living in

(11:54):
Canada, and and they clearly sawthat I'd just become enamored
with with Shakespeare and beingan actor, uh, you know, living
inside of stories.
I was just obsessed by it.
That um they didn't theyencouraged it in me.
And there was a um uh the thetheater in my home city, it was
called the Grand Theater, andthey were doing a production of
Peter Pan um like when I was,you know, it's the soon after my

(12:17):
debut in Romeo and Juliet inRyerson Public School.
Um they were looking, there waslike an advertisement in the
paper doing a casting call forum Lost Boys, you know, for
looking for their kids to comeand audition.
And so my mom asked if I, youknow, would you want to go and
audition?
It's like yeah.
So off I went and and I I did uhrecited a little poem for my

(12:39):
audition.
I it was a poem called DaddyFell into the Pond.
What happened to Daddy when hedidn't know?
But he definitely fell into thepond.
And I think that like it wasthis from the perspective of
like this mischievous boy whothought it was very funny that
his dad fell into the pond.
I can't remember, can'tremember.

SPEAKER_03 (12:55):
Meanwhile, his dad is drowning and freezing to
death.
That's the kid who actuallyended up getting executed by the
principal.
He's so stupid and dumb.
Goes full circle.
Um, yeah, so I ended up in thepast.

SPEAKER_02 (13:07):
Principal was in love with the father.

SPEAKER_03 (13:09):
That's the twist.
No! Of course.

SPEAKER_02 (13:11):
Oh wow, the story has gotten really Juliet's
forbidden.

SPEAKER_04 (13:16):
Oh, good, yes.
Um, so I um uh what was Isaying?

SPEAKER_02 (13:21):
I totally derailed you.
Moss Boys, oh yeah, Moss Boys,yes.
Daddy fell into the pond.

SPEAKER_04 (13:26):
I did daddy fell into the pond, and I ended up
doing this production of PeterPan where I got to play John,
the brother.
Oh, great, you know, with thetop hat and fly.
So I got to mid school and likefly around, right?

SPEAKER_03 (13:35):
And it was like, this is it.
Whatever.
I get to mid school and I get topretend before this, whatever
this is is for me.

SPEAKER_04 (13:43):
I love it.
Um and then right before wemoved to Bermuda, I got to do a
production of Macbeth atStratford at the Stratford
Festival.
And so for like obviously my myway into wanting to be an actor
really young was was Shakespeareand the sort of mystery of it.
And then I, you know, soonthereafter got the chance.
I was like, and I was in likenine or ten, I got to play young
Macduff in this production ofMacbeth.

(14:05):
Yeah, and like with theseamazing Canadian actors, uh
Graham Abbey was Macbeth, LucyPeacock was Lady Macbeth, these
um towering figures of theCanadian theater.
And um, and I got to likeimmerse myself in that in that
sort of environment.
And um it was probably like withthe most formative experience of
my life.
Awesome, you know.
Um, and I and and so after thatit was just a runaway train.

(14:27):
Um and I actually I didn't endup finishing the run.
We actually moved to Bermuda asbefore the run had concluded.
So I I left that production.
They had to find another littlekid and and replace me.
Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 (14:38):
Oh, so this was all in Bermuda.
Wait, was this this was inCanada?
That was in Canada at Stratfordin Canada.
I see I see.

SPEAKER_04 (14:42):
Yeah.
So we were still living inLondon.
I see, I see I see.
Yeah, and so London, Canada.
Yes, London, Ontario.

SPEAKER_02 (14:47):
Yes, London, oh my god, there's too many names
going on right now.
Um you can leave.
But they I'll see myself out.
It's too confusing.

SPEAKER_03 (14:53):
You should have ended it after the the execution
in the story.
Of a of a child.
Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (14:58):
Um so um so yeah, and then we moved to Bermuda
that summer, summer of 2004.
Um and then, yeah, so then uhand then I quickly j got
involved with school plays, andagain, I just got really lucky.
I had an amazing drama teacherum named uh Matt McGowan, Mr.
McGowan, and uh he was awesome.

(15:20):
And he came from the UK to toBermuda to teach at the school
that I went to.
And yeah, from when I was like12 to when I basically graduated
high school, he he was uh thedrama teacher there, and we
became close and nice and we wedid just play after play.
And I think he found uh you knowsomeone in me that was uh you

(15:40):
know, I was a student who wasjust like so gay, like more game
than game, right?
And so I think he there must beprobably appreciated that right.
He's probably it might be putyou know pulling teeth to get
kids to engage with with drama,yeah, you know.
Um and in here I was I was justlike rip roaring, I'm like I'll
do anything.
I want to I wanna get all right,put me in coach kind of
attitude.
And so we we did uh I was reallylucky he let me do like a like

(16:02):
um cool roles that's awesome.
And and really let me cut myteeth.
And um, yeah, and so then whentime came to leave um high
school, at that point Mr.
McGowan had stopped teaching atthe school.
I was on my own.
Oh god.
Oh god.
And um no, I actually I wantedto, so I by the time when the
time came to leave high school,I I was gonna go to drama

(16:24):
school.
Or you know, that was mythinking.
That's what I was uh not that Iwas sure I would.
I don't mean it like that.
I just mean like that was theplan.
Yeah, I didn't think of doinganything else anything else.

SPEAKER_02 (16:33):
When did you go to Juilliard?
What did you go to New York?
Did you have like years therewhere you were trying to find
work or did you go directly toschool or no?

SPEAKER_04 (16:41):
No, yeah.
So I went to Juilliard out ofhigh school.
So right out of high school.
Yeah.
Wow, okay, gotcha.
So so um in my senior year ofhigh school was when I started
doing my sort of auditions forfor drama school for under
undergrad.
Gotcha.
Um and because Bermuda is aBritish overseas territory, um,
and I'd done some summerprograms over in the UK
previously, like when I was 15and 16 in the summers.

(17:03):
Um, I wanted to go to dramaschool in the UK.
I I'd done summer programs atthe summer programs at Rada and
at Rose Bruford, and I lovedLondon.
You know, I got to like spendsummers over there as a teenager
and I loved it.
Fucking loved it.
Um we fucking fellow.
Yes, it's never gonna live thatday.

SPEAKER_02 (17:23):
That's gonna keep coming up in throughout the
podcast.
We've already justified thejustified it.
It's gone full circle.

SPEAKER_04 (17:29):
It's it's gone full circle.
We've tied the bow.
Um yeah, what was I saying?
Juilliard.
Yeah.
So um, oh yeah, because I was Iwanted to go to London.
I fucking fell in love withLondon.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I I wanted to go.
And so I auditioned for dramaschools in London, and but I all
but I also auditioned forJuilliard.
Juilliard was the only schoolnot in the UK that I auditioned

(17:50):
for.
I didn't audition for any otherschools in the States.
Um because I thought I was gonnago to the UK, and I also just
didn't think I was gonna go toJuilliard, and so um I was gonna
go to Central in the UK, andthat was like my mind was made
up, and then I auditioned forJuilliard anyways, and then when
I ended up getting in, it waslike, okay, I should go to
Juilliard, and um and then Idid, and that and um yeah, it

(18:12):
changed the trajectory of mylife for sure.

SPEAKER_02 (18:14):
Wait, did you get into any of the others in in the
UK if you don't mind my asking?

SPEAKER_04 (18:18):
Yeah, I I was gonna go to Central.

SPEAKER_02 (18:20):
Oh, so you got into Central as well.

SPEAKER_04 (18:22):
Yeah, I was that's where I was gonna go.

SPEAKER_02 (18:23):
So why why did you why Juilliard over Central?

SPEAKER_04 (18:27):
Um great question.
Yeah.
Um I don't ultimately know.
I just um I I loved myexperience auditioning for
Juilliard.
Yeah.
Um It was a four-year programand not three.
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 (18:41):
The fourth year is is the fourth year sort of like
a I I don't mean to trivializeit, but like sort of a play
year.
Like you you're kind of there,but you're they're trying to
like I'm not sure what it is.
Push you out of the door as muchas they can while still giving
you an education.
Sure.
I mean it that's fair.
Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_04 (18:58):
Or at least it was that I think that's fair from
when I was there.
Now I I'm I'll age myself here,but yeah, it was like 10 years
ago that I went there.
But so and I think the school'sundergone quite a lot of change
since since I left.
And so I don't I don't knowabout how it's structured now.
Sure.
Um, but at least I can speak towhen I was there.
Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_02 (19:13):
Was Feldman there?

SPEAKER_04 (19:14):
Yeah.
Yeah, love God.
He's such an incredible teacher.
Yeah, he's an incredible,incredible mentor, incredible
teacher, incredible mind, yeah.
Um beautiful human being.
He's the voice in my head.
Yeah.
When I, you know, yeah,unpacking a play.

SPEAKER_02 (19:28):
And he he's just so because he was at NYU with this
as well.
He did our scene study, one ofour scene study classes with us.
Of course.
Just his ability to just likegive you the simplest note that
cuts to the core of what you'retrying to figure out.
Yeah.
Is it's really an amazing giftslash skill that he has.

SPEAKER_04 (19:45):
Yeah, that he's able to distill in such a way that
and and just he seems to be justthis man of infinite patience,
too.
You know, oh my god, yeah.
Which is I can't imagine him soimportant.
Right, right.
Um, yeah, I mean it it's it'syeah, he's a w a fountain of
information and um yeah, abeautiful man.
Um and actually, yeah, to befair, it was ri Richard's

(20:06):
presence.
Richard's it was Richard was abig factor.
You know, I mean he made a bigimpression on me on that the
final uh callback weekend.
All the teachers did.
And so it just felt like far itfelt like too invigorating of an
environment.
It's right at Lincoln Center.
Yeah, it's four years and notthree.
It's in New York City.
Yeah.
It's uh and Bermuda's not that,you know.
I you can fly to New York Cityfrom Bermuda in an hour and a

(20:27):
half, right?
Whereas it's it's it's stilllike a seven or eight-hour
flight to go to the UK.
So I suppose it was a mix oflike heart and head, but yeah,
um and travel plans.
And travel plans, yeah, right.
The practicality of it.

SPEAKER_02 (20:40):
But no, it was like, yeah, totally different
lifestyle.
Yeah.
And yeah, away from people, yourfamily, yeah, that like
genuinely far away from that.

SPEAKER_04 (20:48):
Yes, exactly.
Yeah, and then so for then onschool breaks to then be able to
like fly an hour and a half tohome rather than slug it from
the whatever eight hours, yeah.
Um so yeah, no, and but it wasultimately the it was ultimately
the school itself.
It was the environment of theschool itself.

SPEAKER_02 (21:01):
That Juilliard has.

SPEAKER_04 (21:02):
Yeah, and it was the teachers and it was the um just
the experience of the ofauditioning there and just being
like, uh this feels this feelsright.
This feels like I have somethingthat I gotta do, you know.
And um, I'm really glad that Idid.
It was a it was a harrowing timein in my life.
I think drama school orconservatory programs like that
are a harrowing time in anyone'slife.
You can attest to that, youknow, NYU grad.
And it's conservatory programsand are they're intense.

SPEAKER_02 (21:25):
And um but it's like sort of the thing that you they
they said to us at NYU was like,we're giving you way more than
you will ever deal with in thereal world.
Yes, we do that for a reason, sothat like when you get out of
here it feels easy or easier,sure, sure, yeah.
You know, um yeah, but yeah,it's it's it's really intense.

(21:47):
It is like your your time isalmost entirely dedicated to
this place.
Yes.
Um entirely, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (21:54):
You know, it's yeah, 10 to 12 hour days, six days a
week, not exaggerating.
Yeah, like that's your schedule.
And and I f I think I found itparticularly difficult.
I think maybe I'm I've I'mgaining a little bit more
perspective on this as I get alittle bit older.
Um it I mean that's I I thinkthat time commitment and that
sort of rigor of schedule is isdifficult um on its own, let

(22:15):
alone like as a 19, 20 year oldperson.

SPEAKER_02 (22:18):
Oh my god, yeah.
Um well that's the interestingthing about Juilliard too, is it
correct me if I'm wrong, but myunderstanding is that BFA and
MFA are intermixed.
So that's it.
And it was even more so when Iwent there.
Well, was it really?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (22:31):
I mean, because I didn't go there when there was
an MFA.
I went there when it was just apostgraduate diploma.

SPEAKER_02 (22:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So yeah, yeah.
So I mean that but that's such ahuge such a huge age range of
people to be working with.
Totally, man.
Um, which I'm sure can be maybea little more trying on the
older individuals than theyounger ones.
Totally, man.
I'm sorry.
But you owned the younger ones,so you didn't care.

SPEAKER_04 (22:53):
Right.
But I it's so funny, man.
Like I I think it is symbioticin some sense, though, because
uh I have d I have a good friendMax Wartendike who's in my
class, wonderful actor,director, producer.
And I would I talked to himabout this because he was um he
was older than he was a uh apostgrad student in my class.
Sure.
And uh I think he's about uhabout 10 years older than I than

(23:17):
I am, you know, and so I would Iand I very much looked up to
him, you know.
And I would I talked to himabout about this uh you know
when we were in school, and wewere talking just about how you
you know we learn from eachother just as much as we learn
from, or maybe not just as much,but we learn from each other as
well as we learn from uh or inaddition to learning from the
professors and the classes, etc.
And and and I sort of brought upthe something, a sentiment

(23:40):
similar to what you brought up,and Max sort of said something
akin to you know the theyouthful naivete or like just
vibrance that the phase broughtdoes ru would rub off on the
postgraduate students as well,right?
There's like sort of we end upkind of pulling each other
towards the center, right?
It's like there's sort of a uhnot a jadedness, but if that's
the word you want to use, andthen there's like this bright

(24:01):
naivete, like sure, coach, putme in, I'll do whatever.

SPEAKER_02 (24:44):
Graduated Juilliard.
Did you stay right here in NewYork?
Did you travel a bit or or whatwas the Yeah?

SPEAKER_04 (24:51):
I stayed in New York and and worked uh and or as you
know, as much as I was able.
I um I I was lucky to do someplays with some awesome people,
and uh it was reallyinvigorating and and amazing.
Yeah.
Nice.
Uh so I was I was here for thefor the first uh couple years
out of school.
Yeah.
Nice.
Um and then I relocated back toback home to Bermuda for a few

(25:13):
years.
Uh and then um I I have since uhcome back.
Uh Leah and I have moved back toNew York City.
Oh my god.
Yeah.
Back in we moved back in uh wellI c I came back in to the States
in 2023 to do the the firstnational to the Tina tour.
The tour of the Tina Turnermusical.
Oh my wait, how is that?
Amazing.
Yeah, loved it.
Who did you play in it?
Um so I played um a couple ofparts, but the the main part

(25:37):
that I played was a guy calledJohn Carpenter, who's the head
of um the Carpenter.
The director?
Uh no, he's the he was the headof Capitol Records.
The director, yeah.
Uh John Carpenter's like, you'remaking like scary movies on the
side or whatever.
I'm picking up the show.

SPEAKER_02 (25:48):
I'll be directing the thing on the side over here.

SPEAKER_04 (25:51):
No, no, different John Carpenter.
Yeah, yeah.
Uh yeah, no, that this he's astudio executive, or the record
company executive.
Oh wow.
And who who ends up sort ofgetting caught in between uh
Tina's manager and the um thesort of upper suits.
Oh uh and he's sort of he hassort of like a moral quandary in
there.
So yeah, no, it was it was fun,beautiful time.
Um love the show, love thefriends that I made.

(26:13):
And um I'd never done a tourbefore.
Yeah.
Um, you know, I'd never done 400performances of a show before,
you know.
And so I was gonna say, how longare you out of here?
It was about that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (26:22):
What is that?
Almost two years?

SPEAKER_04 (26:23):
No idea was a year and a half.
Oh, that was just a year.
Yeah, it was I mean, it waseight shows a week for a year.
We did like eight shows a week,yeah.
It was a lot.
It was a lot.
You know, I'm I'm you know, uh,it's a guesstimation, but it's
something like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Three high three something.
No, we're gonna we're gonna getyou on this.
We're gonna be like, oh, he said400.
Well, but are you taking intoaccount you know the the

(26:44):
vacation time and the you knowall that stuff you're like fuck
no, no?
I'm saying four.
Yeah, no, but it was almost itwas around about that.
So it's it was a shit ton ofperformances.
And um that's of a musical too.
You know, I'd never done aprofessional uh it's the only
professional musical I've done.
Yeah, um are you a singer?
In the shower, yeah.
No, I no, I sing.
I sing, you know, I uh and butbut it was the only professional

(27:06):
musical I've I've done and andto get to do it on the road was
was amazing.
Yeah I got to make a lot ofgreat great friends and meet a
lot of the make a lot of greatfriends with the crew and the
cast.
Yeah, nice and also if fornothing else to see the country,
man.
Like I was gonna say, did you goall across West like the the
whole country?
I think there's 37 cities, anduh and we did six weeks in

(27:26):
Toronto as well.
And so I I wasn't very welltraveled in the states before
this, you know.
Um and so now I've I've been toI've been to lots of places that
I otherwise would not have been.
Yeah, and that was reallyspecial.
And so I treated it, yeah,really like an an adventure,
yeah.
Yeah, a uh see a see a see thecountry adventure.
That's so cool.
And you got to do and then atnight you go do, you know, a a a

(27:48):
Tina Turner dance party withyour friends, and and and it was
also I um I joined the tour umsoon after Tina uh Turner had
passed, and so it was um verymuch a sort of that that year we
sold very well, and people werereally excited to see the show
as a celebration of Tina Turner.

(28:08):
She's a figure obviously whomeans so much to so many people
for so many reasons.
Um so that was a real blessingtoo, just getting to like be led
into the the the life of TinaTurner in a way that I I didn't
I I knew generally who she was,I knew some of the hits, I sure
you know knew of the the movie,yeah, uh you know, but I didn't
know much about her life otherthan that, and so getting to

(28:30):
kind of uh learn about that,immerse myself in that world,
even meet some of her familymembers who would come and see
the show.
Wow, and just to see people, youknow, really affected by the
show and love the show, and youcan see them, you know,
everything that they'reovercoming in their own life.
Yeah, I don't know, to to to getto be part of a show that does
that was was awesome.

SPEAKER_02 (28:48):
I mean, I think that's one of the best parts of
being a performer, an actor islike when you get to given
material that you're like, oh Iknow this person, or like I I
know a little bit about this,and just like getting to do a
deeper dive into it and justbeing like, wow, there was so
much here that I I didn't thatmaybe I would never have
actually like taken the time tolook up or what have you.

SPEAKER_04 (29:11):
Totally um yeah, no, Tina Turner now means a lot to
me.
I think uh I'm really gratefulfor that.
Yeah, that's so no, it was itwas an awesome show.
I and I made lifelong friends onit, and um it was a real joy.

SPEAKER_02 (29:21):
That's awesome, dude.
Yeah.
So you've done a lot of regionaltheater too, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Like how how has your experiencebeen with going around the
country and performing?
Like what what's like what'syour f this is such a general
question, but like what's beenyour favorite project that
you've gotten to do?
I mean, it sounds like you'vegotten to work with so many
theater companies.

(29:42):
It's just awesome.

SPEAKER_04 (29:42):
I love the regional theater, you know, and I would I
I love traveling.
Yeah.
I love traveling.
I love going to differentplaces, and I I just love
getting the chance to do to doplays, work on plays, you know,
and uh and yeah, getting to goto really cool cities like DC.
I did a I did the DC productionof Bad Jews, the the Joshua How
did Bad Jews.
Um my favorite production thatI've probably been a part of was

(30:06):
probably I really I always comeback to this production of
Measure for Measure that I didum at West in California at Cal
Shakespeare's, which sadly um isno longer operational.
But um, I know it's it'sdevastating.
But um the CaliforniaShakespeare Theater was yeah,
was a special place.
Eric Ting was running it when Idid this production of Measure
for Measure there.
And um it was a whirl it was awhirlwind experience because I

(30:29):
um I got hired on quite lastminute and I I was playing the
Duke in Measure for Measure andValentine and Two Gentlemen of
Verona in in rep at Santa CruzShakespeare.

SPEAKER_02 (30:39):
That's quite different.
I think the Duke is one of thehardest characters in the canon.
Measure for measure, I think, islike his most high poetical
play.
Sure, sure.
So dense with imagery, but it'sMeasure for Measure is
incredible.

SPEAKER_04 (30:54):
I think I think it's that's part of the reason why I
s I think it is my favoriteproject, is because I I A didn't
know much about the play beforethe project.
I knew it to the extent that oneuh knows it when you're when
you're auditioning for it, but Iknow not nearly in as in depth
as as after having having doneit.
But yeah um it's such a problemplay, it's such an interesting
play, it's such a weird play.

(31:16):
Um, but it's also like astartlingly um beautiful play as
well.
And yeah um so so let me back upa little bit.
I'm getting carried away.
So so so can you not get carriedaway?
So that production was was donein rep originally with Santa
Cruz Shakespeare.
We did it in rep with twogentlemen of Rona.
Oh god.
And I only had a few days beforegoing out there.

(31:37):
So I was the um the just likethe amount of work that that
took to to start getting tworoles uh simultaneously up on
their feet, yeah, was harrowing.
Yeah, but then but that's alsolike why I loved it so much
because it was so rewarding.
And then we ended up taking thatproduction of Measure for
Measure, specifically was aco-production with the
California Shakespeare Theater.
So then we took that productionafter our run at Santa Cruz up

(32:00):
to Berkeley, and we ran just themeasure for measure at Califor
at Cal Shakes.
And um so it was outdoors, andthe the Cal Shakes theater was
situated like right at the footof these beautiful rolling
hills.
Um and so I was and how old wasI?
I was like 24, 23 or 24.
Um, so I was like kind of rightout of drama school, and I got

(32:23):
to like, you know, I'm I'm uhthe only time I went to
California other than that wasshowcase for school, and and
that's just you know, you're inLA for like however long you
watched.
Okay, for you.
We were there for howeverhowever long you're there for
five days a week or something,and it's just it's a crazy time,
right?

SPEAKER_02 (32:37):
Uh no, I never went.
We never did.
Okay, we never did.
Okay.
So it's a crazy time.

SPEAKER_04 (32:41):
It was a crazy time you don't went to see a lot of
California, right?
You just sort of see LA andyou're doing your thing.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, but so yeah, the chance togo to California, to Northern
California, it's so beautiful.
Do this play that I wasn'treally familiar with, but got to
come to terms with.
Um Tyne Raffaeli directed it,and she I just I can't say
enough incredible things abouther.

(33:01):
So getting getting to work withher was also just a real gift
and a joy, and something that'sa real career highlight for me.
Nice.
Um so it's like sort of thesynthesis of all those things of
like performing Shakespeareoutdoors in the hills of
California with a problem playthat I didn't get at first and
and had to really wrestle with,you know, in in a beautiful
environment.
And you know, um like I said,it's it's a tragedy that that

(33:26):
theater doesn't exist anymore,but I'm it's it's part of why
it's special too, because it'slike I I'm really glad I got to
work there.

SPEAKER_02 (33:33):
Yeah.
So wait, you said you played theDuke at age 24.

SPEAKER_04 (33:37):
So this is this is why part of why I think Tyne
Raphael is is a genius and why Iloved working with her.
And I loved our take on the playbecause it really flipped it on
his head.
Yeah.
Um and we she, Tyne, um, made alot of very bold choices that I
thought were really cool andbroke the play open in a way
that was hadn't just hadn't beenexplored.
And so, you know, obviously oneof the the problem elements of

(34:00):
that play is the the silence ofIsabella in the in the fifth act
and the proposal that you knowcomes along with that or
precedes that, I suppose.
And and we we flipped it on itshead that it it was not a
proposal, it was not romantic,but that the Duke abdicates the
throne to Isabella at the end.
And so shit, what's minereferring to the throne is
yours, and we are not worthy,you know, basically like Oh, I

(34:22):
love that's actually how he likegives her the keys to the
kingdom.
Yeah, in this way, and thereason why she's silent, the
sort of final image that Tynebuilt on the stage was what do
you say to that?
What do you do?
Right.
So then Isabella then ispresented with this temptation,
with this, you know, uh uh uh uhpower, yeah, and it's is she
going to choose to take it ornot?

(34:42):
You know.
Oh, that's great.
Oh yeah, and it all of a suddenmakes the play sing in this in
this major key rather than aminor key.
And um I fucking loved that.
And also Tyne's instinct that itwas Tyne's genius that she cast
me.

SPEAKER_03 (34:59):
No, but it's it was Tyne's genius instinct that this
It's always genius work when youcast me.
Yeah, it was her best was thebest choice she made.
Her best work.

SPEAKER_04 (35:07):
But yeah, but no, the idea of casting a young man
that like the his behavior atthe top of the show and w and
his behavior throughout theshow, yeah, it it's totally
believable as a as young folly,as a young man's mistake, yeah,
you know, that he's inheritedthis kingdom as a young person,
yeah, and um is not up to thetask.

(35:28):
And uh, and and and perhapsperhaps that abdication and
running away is is um, you know,it's like a sign of his sort of
it uh it's somewhat of a sign ofhis wisdom in that he he sort of
goes, I can't do this.
Yeah, yeah.
Um and so we really focused inon this young man at the top
who's who's overwhelmed andovercome.
Um and and and it's it's asituation that is beyond his

(35:51):
capacity to deal with.
Yeah.
Um and that then, yeah, that'swhat you know it compels him to

(36:20):
do what he does at thebeginning, and that then
eventually where he gets to, youknow, on his journey about
learning what leadership is,yeah, he ultimately learns that
he must uh you know abdicate it.
That's that's a great concept.
Amazing, right?
And so yeah, the chance to towork on a problem play like that
and ride the coattails of TyneRaffaella and get to break it

(36:41):
open in this way in the hills ofCalifornia.
Yeah, I think I peaked.

SPEAKER_02 (36:47):
You peaked on those hills.
Yeah, I did.

SPEAKER_00 (36:53):
Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 (36:57):
This is Lipton Classics.
This is where we go through theuh ten Inside the Actor Studio
questions, which were devised bythe French journalist Bernard
Pivot and were made uh obviouslyuh famous by Inside the Actors
Studios by James Lipton.
And so we are about to startwhen Rowan puts his coffee down.

(37:20):
The first question is what isyour favorite word?

SPEAKER_04 (37:25):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (37:26):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (37:27):
Uh what is that?
Look.
Look?
Look, look.

SPEAKER_04 (37:31):
I guess I don't know.
Look.
Like it's just what came tomind.
Like a filter.

SPEAKER_02 (37:36):
It just like look.

SPEAKER_04 (37:37):
Oh no, I I meant like look.

SPEAKER_02 (37:40):
So like seeing things, look.

SPEAKER_04 (37:42):
Maybe, yeah.
Um that's the most interestinganswer every day.
If someone, if you're if you'reif like you're with someone and
then like we're walking down thestreet and I all of a sudden go,
look.
Isn't that like really that'syou know, scary though?

SPEAKER_02 (37:53):
But that is a great answer.
Yeah.
I I totally get what you mean.
Yeah, like it fills you withsome like sort of impetus to to
look.
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (38:02):
Look, look and see.
Look, look.
That's my answer.
I like that.
Look.
I gen Yeah, it's got a lot ofuses.
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (38:08):
I like that, actually.
All right.
What is your least favoriteword?
Maybe.
You are giving the mostinteresting answers.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 (38:21):
Maybe what's my least favorite word?
I was gonna say no, but likethat's that just seems maybe is
worse.
Maybe is worse.
Because it's nothing.
The ambiguity of it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Maybe anything wishy-washy.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (38:34):
Anything wishy-washy?
Maybe.
Maybe.
Possibly.
Could be, potentially.

SPEAKER_04 (38:38):
That's two words, though.

SPEAKER_03 (38:39):
Could.
Could.
That's it.
That's my least favorite word.
Could.
I don't know.
Could.
I don't know.
Could that's what it is.

SPEAKER_02 (38:47):
What turns you on?

SPEAKER_03 (38:52):
Um, my beautiful wife.

SPEAKER_02 (38:54):
Yes.
Leah?
Leah.
Oh, that's so sweet.
What turns you off?
Um, wish wash.
Wish wash.
Wish wash.
Wish wash.
So so the same as almost yourleast favorite word.
You don't like anythingambiguous.

SPEAKER_04 (39:11):
It's so funny.
I mean, that's a good thing.
Or like no, because actuallywhat turned it to commit.
Maybe that you said something.
Maybe that's it.
Maybe that's it.
Yeah.
I don't know what it is.
It's like, no, because like, Idon't know.
I mean, I feel like everythingwe were talking about about why
I like I I love the ambiguity ofthings and I love the buttons
like what turns me on, turns meoff.
Oh god.

(39:31):
Oh no.
Oh, I'm gonna have to unpackthis.
The SM of it all.
Exactly.
Well that's what I mean.
Freud would have a field day.
Um no.
I think I just don't like wishwishwash in terms of like in
terms of life.
Life, like wishwash when itcomes to like art and literature
and stuff like that.
All about all about the maybe,all about the ambiguity.

(39:52):
All about that.

SPEAKER_02 (39:53):
I totally get what you mean.

SPEAKER_04 (39:55):
But but if someone's like, yeah, we'll see, or
something like fucking no, whichone is yeah, I like things to be
No, but I get what you mean.

SPEAKER_02 (40:05):
Like the the wishy-washing.
Like I love when characters andplays are like deeply rooted in
what they believe and they'rejust having strong arguments.
And I feel like there's not asmany this is so generalized, but
I do think there is somehesitancy sometimes in like
contemporary playwrights towrite characters that have very

(40:26):
strong ideals because I hate tosay it, but like cancel culture
and stuff like that.
If you put something on stage oflike someone who's like really,
you know, just like has veryextreme views or something like
that, it can be seen as likeunpalatable or like
non-commercial, so it won't selltickets or whatever.
I'm like, but we need that, weneed like characters like going

(40:49):
at it and arguing their points.
Um and just like wishy-washy inbetween, no one's really like
committed to an ideology sort ofthing.
Yeah, maybe that's it.
Maybe that's like what's whatwho are you then?
Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 (41:01):
The only way to actually wrestle with um true
ambiguity is to like take take astance and take a stance and see
what what you actually believe.

SPEAKER_02 (41:09):
The collision of those stances.
I mean, that's what theater'sall about.
It's about strong opinion andfinding out what your own
opinion is within that.
Right.
Um what is your favorite curseword?
Hmm.
Um we talked about yeah Say it.
Do it.
Say it.
I'm I guarantee you someone saidit already.

SPEAKER_04 (41:31):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (41:31):
Um it wouldn't be the first time I've said cunt
comes to mind.
But yes.
But other people have said it.
Cunt comes to mind, but but all-I have such a huge opinion about
this.

SPEAKER_04 (41:43):
But it's it's not, I don't think it is my favorite.
I think it's it's cliche andit's classic coke, but but like
fuck, fuck.
It's got it's just as fuck.
It's like you know, like fuckingSprite is amazing.
Dr.
Pepper is amazing, but like Dr.
Pepper.
Classic Coke is.
I see, I see Dr.

(42:04):
Dr.
Pepper's like con Sprite isshit.
Classic classic Coke is fuck,right?
Maybe it's the maybe it is the Itotally get what you mean of
Coke and fuck, but it's likefuck is fuck is the central
curse word of which emanatesother it's cola.

SPEAKER_02 (42:23):
It's classic coke.
And cola already owns Sprite andDr.
Pepper and all these others aswell.
So it makes total sense.
Because then you you could belike fucking cunt, fucking you
know, that sounded terribleactually, how I just used it
then.

SPEAKER_03 (42:39):
That didn't honestly.
It can be an adjective, it canbe a verb, it can be Yes, it can
be anything.

SPEAKER_04 (42:46):
It can be all sorts of things.

SPEAKER_03 (42:47):
Here let me get on my soap.

SPEAKER_02 (42:48):
Multifunctional.
I'm gonna get a little on alittle bit of a soapbox because
uh I we've talked about thisbefore.
Not you and I, but another uh uha couple other guests have said
cunt as their favorite.
And I I also like this word, Idon't use it a lot, but I'm s it
just there's something about itthat sings, and I I think it is
misogynistic not to use it.

(43:11):
And here's why.
Here is why.
First of all, it's a very widelyused term in England, and it's a
like a term of endearment to acertain degree.

SPEAKER_04 (43:21):
Yes.
I think Australia too.

SPEAKER_02 (43:23):
Yes, I think it is a sign of American misogyny that
we it's honestly, I've like soit's so serious.
I'm here for it.
I'm like I but honestly.
I think it is a sign of Americanmisogyny that we are so willing
to say, oh, you're a prick,you're a dick.

(43:44):
And we're totally okay withsomeone saying that.
Even in an endearing way, like,oh god, you're such a dick.
Okay.
Like, but when it comes to theterm price, I see, I see.
We we think the notion of femalegenitalia is so unpalatable that
it that it's consideredoffensive.
I see.
And to and to my mind, I'm like,oh, right, is massages.

(44:04):
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 (44:04):
It'd be worse if someone called you a pussy than
if they called you a person.

SPEAKER_02 (44:07):
Yes.
Right, right, right.
Yes.
And we do consider that to bethe case.
And I'm just like, well, why?

SPEAKER_03 (44:12):
If if it's I just I drink classic Coke, man.
I don't know what to tell you.
I'm all about the case.
I don't know what to fuckingtell you.

SPEAKER_00 (44:20):
I don't know what to fucking tell you.

SPEAKER_02 (44:23):
And maybe, you know, maybe I'll get lambasted in the
in the comments or whatever.
Not that people leave commentson this.
Um like and subscribe.
Oh, maybe they will.
Um, but uh I that's just how Ifeel.
I hear you, man.
I hear you.
I think it's a cunting disgrace.
I'm gonna try and just you areturning them into the yeah, I'm
such a fucking fucking feminist.

(44:45):
Um my god.
I hope I don't get in troublefor that.
Um you edit.
I know I do, but I'm gonna leaveit in.
I'm I'm all about free speech,baby, especially in this
administration.
Ooh, we're getting political.
Uh oh.
Uh what sound or noise do you?
Love.

SPEAKER_04 (45:03):
Well, um, I've always loved um ice hockey.
Growing up in Canada, I I lovethe sport of ice hockey.
And so that the a good slapshot, a good like stick meeting
puck.
I totally know what you mean.
Austin Matthews one timer fromthe dot.
Oh my god.
It's be it's a thing of beauty.

SPEAKER_02 (45:19):
My dad used to play uh hockey with his friends all
the time, and so me and mybrother would go and s like sit
and watch them play.
And so yeah, I totally get that.
Yeah, either the horrible stick.

SPEAKER_04 (45:30):
Probably the slap shot, but also like, yeah, that
when the puck ricochets off theboards and then echoes
throughout the maybe it's alsolike calling upon childhood
memories too, because I wouldplay ice hockey as a little kid.
Yeah.
I have you know fuzzy memoriesof you know 6 a.m.
games that my dad would take meto to some rundown rink
somewhere, you know, and and thesound of the puck ricocheting
again, you know, echoing throughthe halls or through the through

(45:52):
the uh rink.
Yeah.
Um it sort of does something tome.
Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 (45:56):
That's a great answer.
Um what sound or noise do youhate?

SPEAKER_04 (46:02):
It's um it's sort of a nails on a channel.
I mean a nails on a chalkboardthing, but it's it's the um you
know it's when you've got youknow when you like old sorry,
I'm putting the mic away from myface.
No, it's okay.
Like packaging, plasticpackaging for like a toy or
scissors or something.
That squeak.
Well, then you rip off the back,but you don't manage to pull it
completely away from the hardplastic.
So then there's that fuzzy, likesort of thin, fuzzy paper that

(46:27):
you have to then try and uhperforate.
Uh-huh.
That that scratching along thefuzzy cardboard.
It's very specific.
In packaging.
Fuzzy cardboard.
You know what I mean though,right?
Like I sometimes away and it'slike, oh great.
You're not talking aboutstyrofoam, right?
No, I'm talking about, you know,like what an action figure comes
in, how it's like it's placed onsort of cardboard, and then

(46:50):
there's a plastic sort of casingthat goes over the action
figure, and it's usually tied inby like wire.
Like the colour.
Oh, you know what I mean?
Yes.
And then you've got to peel thecardboard away from the plastic,
but if you don't get it all, itleaves this like thin film that
you then can't peel unless youpoke.
And every time you try and pokeit looks like that.

SPEAKER_03 (47:12):
Yeah, it's that one.
That one.
That's my favorite.
That's my least favorite.

SPEAKER_02 (47:16):
It's got to be the most specific one I've ever
heard.
I love it.
Um What profession other thanyour own would you like to
attempt?

SPEAKER_04 (47:25):
Oh, that's a good question.
Maybe like I'm not smart enough,but like uh Are you stupid and
dumb?
I'm stupid and dumb.
But like, uh Leah and I havetalked about this too.
Um something in the world oflike archaeology, something in
the world of like history.
But is that because of IndianaJones?
100%.

(47:45):
But but but but that that'sthat's it's an honest answer.
It's like I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 (47:51):
I I don't know Imagine how exciting it would be
to actually uncover somethingthat people have not seen in
hundreds, many thousands ofyears.
Like that would be thrilling.

SPEAKER_04 (48:02):
I think there's a there's a there's the the common
denominator here, I think, islike this sort of spirit of
discovery of like trying tofigure out the unknown, right?
Yeah, and so uh um I thinkthat's what it would be.
But even if it's like I said,I'm not smart enough to to
actually do it.
Um and even if it wasn't IndianaJones out in the field trying to
dig up buried treasure orwhatever, but even just like

(48:23):
yeah, maybe some kind of likehistorical textual analysis or
something that you're trying tosolve a mystery from history.
Yeah.
Whoa.
History's mysteries.

SPEAKER_02 (48:31):
History's mysteries.
This is gonna be our new show,uh ABC Thursdays at nine.

SPEAKER_04 (48:36):
So it's probably not even an archaeologist.
I'm just sort of I use that asmy frame of reference because I
just want to be Indiana Jones.
I love it.
But something in the history ofthe streets.

SPEAKER_02 (48:43):
Wait, aren't you playing the new Indiana Jones
game right now?
It's amazing.
You were just telling me aboutthis the other day.
It's amazing.
I gotta watch it.
The Great Circle.
Go get it.
The Great Circle.
It's so funny.
I'm sure that is the one withTroy Baker as I don't know who
Troy Baker is.
Oh my god, you you do.
I do, sorry, Troy.
Troy Baker, also, like is he theactors?
Does like the mocap?
Yes, he's like he's one of thegreatest video game actors of

(49:05):
all time.
Dude, he's a big thing.
He plays Joel in The Last of Us.
Oh.
He's the bad guy in Far Cry 4.
Okay.
Uh which you know, which was alittle controversial, but oh,
the the Christian nationalistone?
Oh no, the the the one thattakes place in um oh god, Tibet,
I think.
Oh, yeah, yeah, gotcha.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um he's an extraordinary actor.
Cool.

(49:25):
Like he's such an uh he can doso much with his voice.
Dude, he sounds just likeHarrison Ford.
It's a good one.
I know, it's it's it'sincredible.
Yeah, yeah.
It's incredible.
He's so good.

SPEAKER_04 (49:32):
Dude, doing mocap would be cool.
Maybe that's what I would do.

SPEAKER_02 (49:34):
That's what I want to do.
That's what it is.
I that's one I've I've gotten todo one motion capture job, and
it was for Cheetos.

unknown (49:42):
Really?

SPEAKER_02 (49:43):
I got to play Chester Cheetah.
Not really, though, because whatI can talk about this because
this was years ago.
And this this was so this is oneof the most bizarre experiences.
Actually, I'm gonna I'm gonnatake a moment to talk about
this.
Okay, please, please do.
Um many years ago.
And this was this is this willtell you how much I think or I
hope the industry has changedbecause this was a

(50:04):
simultaneously like a reallycool job that I got, and then I
got very nearly dicked over.
Um I got to play Chester Cheetoor Chester Cheetah.

SPEAKER_05 (50:16):
Chester Cheetah!

SPEAKER_02 (50:18):
And I was in a mocap, they were looking for
someone who could do animpression of Chester Cheetos,
you know, like that.
Yeah, that was it.
And and uh so I sent in thisthing.
I I told a story as ChesterCheetah.

SPEAKER_04 (50:30):
Was it about daddy falling into the pond?

SPEAKER_02 (50:33):
My father fell into a pond and I was never the same.
Um it was dangerously cheesy outthere.
Uh, so is this joke.
Uh, and so I sent in this thing,like doing an impression of
Chester Cheetah.
They liked it, and then I had tocome into the office that I was
doing the mocap for.
And they were like, as acallback, they were like, just

(50:56):
do some backstory on ChesterCheetah.
Like, just tell us a story.
And I was just like, okay.
So I made up this backstory thatI was jealous of my brothers who
were really fast runners orsomething like that.
Oh, because he's a cheetah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I was just like, I don'tthink it was so bizarre what
they were asking me to do.

(51:17):
And I was just like, okay, thisis the backstory.
And I left going, I'm notgetting that job.
That was that was atrocious.
Yeah, and I got the job.
Um, and I genuinely think it wasjust because I could do the
impression the best.
Sure.
But the reason they were askingme to do that was because it was
supposed to be for this event,like a live Cheetos event or
something where people could goup to a screen and I'm like in

(51:42):
some studio somewhere, liketalking to people, and I can
hear them and maybe see them, Ithink was supposed to be the
idea.
And uh they could interact withChester or whatever.
I go and do like one day ofrehearsal.
Rehearsal, where I get into thesuit, I do the whole thing, I
can see myself on like camera.
Oh, it's and it's mo cap.
It's mocap.

(52:03):
So and they were like showingme, and the guy, I will say the
people that I was working with,the like the engineers for the
mo cap were awesome.
They were great.
Uh, I'm not gonna mention thecompany just because I don't
want anybody to get in troubleor whatever.
I was working with theengineers, they're like, oh, it
looks great and whatnot.
And then they were like, okay,we're gonna we're gonna do a
little presentation for the theboard or whatever, the people
who are like gonna be like dolike guiding me through like how

(52:27):
the event will be run.
So essentially what they did wasthey set up a zoom camera or
before before Zoom, it was justFaceTime.
Um but like they had it set upso that they could see me as
Chester Cheetah or whatever.
And like they were getting readyand like they turned on the
camera, and I just see like aboardroom, just like a a like a

(52:47):
long table and uh just a bunchof empty chairs around it.
I was just like, oh okay, peoplehaven't shown up yet or
whatever.
I see like one person walkingaround, like trying to fix the
camera on that end, whereverthey were.
I don't know where they were.
Um, and then the the feed goesout.
I was just like, oh, maybethey're just having some like
trouble with like the feed orwhatever, and that's what they
said.
And then like ten minutes later,one of the engineers just comes

(53:10):
up to me and is just like theyscrapped it.
And I was just like, What?
We didn't even do anything.
You're like in the suit rightnow.
I'm in the mocap soup, likegetting ready to like do my
chester.
And and they're just like, Yeah,they scrapped it.
They scrapped, and I was like,Why?
What?
I was like, What like we're justnot doing it?

(53:31):
Like we didn't, I didn't evensay a word.
I don't even know that they evensaw the motion cap because there
was nobody in the room.
Man, it was very clear?
Well, this is why I said that Isaid this.
I was charged uh for notcharged, I was uh my rate, my
rate for rehearsal was onething, and then the rate for uh

(53:54):
performance, which they wereconsidering that day as a
performance, uh, was was muchhigher.
And so when it they were like,we chose to cut the day, like we
chose to scrap it, so thatwasn't a performance day, that
was just a rehearsal day.
So it would have been like nojoke, like a quarter of the
paycheck.
And I was like, that'sunacceptable.
That's crazy.

(54:14):
Because the other thing, too,and this has happened, and
people, if you're gonna scrap anidea or scrap a project or
whatever last minute, just knowthat we as artists may have been
offered another job that day,which I had been offered another
job that day.
And I'm like, I could have gonethere and made money there if

(54:37):
you at all just like made yourdecisions properly.

SPEAKER_04 (54:41):
That makes sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (54:41):
Um, and so I fought for that, and like ultimately, I
think I only lost like a hundreddollars off of it.
They still like discounted itbecause they chose to throw it
out.
But to this day, I'm like, man,that was just like so shitty.
They were they were willing tojust be like they cheetoed you.

SPEAKER_03 (54:58):
Yeah, they cheeted me.

SPEAKER_02 (55:00):
Do you at least get free Cheetos for Life or
something?
No, not at all.
Fuckers.
It was just like, it was justlike a oh god, what a bummer.
That was a flaming hot bummer.
Bummer, dude.

SPEAKER_00 (55:12):
What profession would you not like to do?

SPEAKER_02 (55:16):
Oh man.
Play Chester Cheeto.
Politician.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
I guess.

SPEAKER_04 (55:23):
I mean, not that I wouldn't want to like be of you
know, be a public servant.
I don't think that's honorable.

SPEAKER_02 (55:29):
I just like how do you be like, I it's hard for me
to look at some of like the thepoliticians I do like and are
like, man, the people you haveto deal with.

SPEAKER_04 (55:39):
Yeah, totally.
And also, yeah, I changed mymind.
I changed my mind becausebecause it's actually I changed
my mind.
That's well, that's the firstthing that came to mind, but I
could actually go into politicsmore than I think I could like
be like an accountant orsomething.
Because I'm I mean I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 (55:54):
Well, it's saying what terrible at what you not
like to do.
So it's not it's it's notnecessarily about like your
ability.
It's not what I'd be bad at.
I wouldn't like doing it, eventhough I think it what if you
are a good politician, it isprobably extremely rewarding.
Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 (56:11):
That's why I think I would like, despite more
pitfalls in the political world,I think I would like the
day-to-day of it more because Icould derive a sense of meaning
from it.
Whereas I don't think I could dothat bunch of humors.
Yes, you know.
No, I changed my I changed myanswer.
I changed my answer.
Accountants.
Accountants.
Well, just because I don't knowanything.

SPEAKER_03 (56:29):
And that would also probably not like it.
I wouldn't go around the officeand be like, I don't know how to
do math.
Anyone know help me?

SPEAKER_04 (56:34):
Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 (56:34):
Like, anyone do it?
I hate this.
I don't I'm an accountant, andI'm like, anyone know basic
arithmetic?
I got this thing called lungdivision.
Pluses, minuses, an X's.

SPEAKER_04 (56:45):
Did you know they started adding letters to the
chat?
Um that would be me.
So I would not enjoy it.
Um I wouldn't be good at it, andit doesn't light my fire.

SPEAKER_03 (56:54):
And um I would also be terrified.
Don't light my fire.

SPEAKER_04 (56:58):
Yeah, well, and I'd also be terrified I'd make a
mistake and be like, Yeah, Ican't be able to get it.
Rowan, did you carry the one?
I'm like, no.

SPEAKER_03 (57:07):
I didn't.
So probably I just threw itaway.
That was what you're supposed todo.

SPEAKER_02 (57:12):
It's an extra one.
Who needs it?

SPEAKER_03 (57:14):
Well, what does it mean to be one with something?

SPEAKER_02 (57:16):
What does it mean to really carry the one?
To carry one.
He's like, dude, you need to bean actor.
Yeah, exactly.
Like, get the fuck out of here.
The final question.
If heaven exists, what would youlike to hear God say when you
arrive at the Pearlie Gates?
So St.

(57:36):
Peter's like, yeah, Rowan,you're you're in.

SPEAKER_04 (57:39):
Such a good question.
Is this on the inside of theactor studio?

SPEAKER_02 (57:41):
Yeah, this is the final one.
Yeah, these are all the thethese are the ones.
Um really pithy.
Silly country.

SPEAKER_03 (57:51):
Yeah, I was gonna be wanted to be like, you dog.
Or like you stupid.
Or like, or or about time.
Or about time.
Oh, finally you dumb.
Like about time would be.
Yeah, that's nice.

SPEAKER_04 (58:06):
Um nice of you to show up.
Finally.
He's like, I finally get to hangout with you.
You know what?
I would love for you for God togo.
Well, there goes theneighborhood.

SPEAKER_02 (58:17):
They're fucked down there, aren't they?

SPEAKER_04 (58:21):
No, not that I've showed up.
He's like, Oh, there goesheaven.
Um no, I'm kidding.
Um uh yeah, probably somethingalong those lines, probably,
like um about time.

SPEAKER_02 (58:30):
About time.

SPEAKER_04 (58:30):
About time.
About time.

SPEAKER_02 (58:32):
The party can really start.

SPEAKER_03 (58:34):
Or uh you again?
Um You again.
You again.
That would be wild.
That would be crazy.
That would be cool.
You again would be cool,actually.

SPEAKER_04 (58:42):
Oh, well, I know that would actually wouldn't be
heaven, because then I'd spendthe whole time being like, what
is what does that mean?

SPEAKER_03 (58:46):
And that's wishwash.
We know I don't like wishwash.
Then you'd be like, God, what'sup, bro?
You gotta is that a maybe?

SPEAKER_01 (58:52):
Yeah, what does that mean?
What are we can't be a maybe,man.
What are we?
You can't be maybe gut.
You can't be a maybe gut.

SPEAKER_04 (58:59):
Yeah, no, ultimately, it's a fucking great
question.
What a fun question.
Yeah.
Ultimately, I think about timewould be about time would be
great.
Because I'd feel welcome.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, it'd be like, I youbelong here, you're always
destined for here.
Yeah.
But it took you a long time.

SPEAKER_02 (59:12):
It might it might depend on how they say it,
though, you know.
Like about time.
True.
Like, well, was I late?
Yeah, this was not the plan.
This was not the plan.
You were here supposed to behere years ago.

SPEAKER_03 (59:27):
Right, right, right.
Like, I tried to kill you withyour appendix, but no.
No, you just had to get thatremoved.
Fucked up your vision, butcontact lenses.

SPEAKER_04 (59:38):
No, I'm kidding.
Oh I love it.
Yeah, about time would be wouldbe great.
I love it.
Because there'd be a sense ofhumor, you know.
Yeah.
I would be expected.
Yeah.
I'm welcomed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, and I've lived a long time.
Yeah.
You know, it's all of those atonce in that phrase.

SPEAKER_02 (59:52):
I love it.
Well, Rowan, this year is theend of the podcast.
Anything you want to promote?
Anything uh anything going on inthe near future?
I mean, if you if anything comesup, you can always oh shit.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:05):
I'll hit you up.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:05):
Yeah, just let me know and I'll I can add it.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:07):
But no, it's a pleasure, man.
I think this is a super coolthing that you got going on.
I think it's a really like noblepursuit.
Uh you're doing a great job, andI'm I'm just chuffed to be
actually coming hang out andanswer some questions.
And I I, you know, talking aboutmyself is not necessarily a
strong suit, so I appreciate it.
No, man.
I I love it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:24):
I appreciate the the cutting together of whatever
this is being to make me uh.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:27):
Oh, this whole thing is gonna be a one-word story.
I'm just gonna cut from all overthis thing and make you say
horrible things.
Yeah.
Do you have any idea how manytimes you said fucking punch?

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:36):
I was gonna say, Oh god, you could clip this whole
thing together in such a waythat um it could be a lifelong
project.
But um, no, it's super fun, man.
This is super cool.
It's my first time doingsomething like this.
I love it.
It's a lot of people's firsttime on walking me through it.
And uh hopefully I didn't maketoo many stumbles.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:50):
No, dude, it was great.
Cool.
All right, y'all.
That's this week's episode ofWorking Class Acts.
We'll see you next time.