April 21, 2026 • 44 mins
This week, Danielle is chatting with Veronica Roth, who’s fresh off a major announcement: Divergent. Is. Back. The original trilogy has sold over 35 million copies since it debuted 15 years ago. Veronica has been publishing countless novels and short stories ever since, but now she’s ready to revisit the Divergent universe — with a new twist. “The Sixth Faction” is an alternate universe retelling that dares to ask: what if Tris never left Abnegation, and joined Dauntless? Danielle and Veronica talk about hot tubs, dystopian fiction, and learning to love your own work in all its imperfections. And don’t worry — Tris and Four will still have a meet-cute.
Books Mentioned:
Divergent by Veronica Roth
The Sixth Faction by Veronica Roth
Four: A Divergent Collection by Veronica Roth
1984 by George Orwell
Allegiant by Veronica Roth
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Bookmarked by Reese's book Club is presented by Apple Books. Hi,
I'm Danielle Robe and welcome to Bookmarked by Reese's book Club. Today,
I'm bringing you the hottest piece of news from bookcom
Are you ready? Okay, drum roll please? Divergent is back.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
It's kind of like a Trists for a new generation.
She is, throughout the course of the new novel, discovering
the ways that authorities in her life have failed her
and continue to fail her. And I think that just
feels like, I don't know, that feels like exactly the
moment that we're in right now.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
So if you need a little refresher or you're discovering
it for the first time, here's the world Veronica built.
Divergent is a ya dystopia set in a future Chicago
where society is divided into factions based on personality traits.
But the main character, Tris doesn't really fit neatly into
one box, and so her story begins. If you remember,
(01:02):
Divergent sold more than thirty five million copies worldwide. It
was a phenomenon since it came out fifteen years ago,
and now it's author of Veronica Roth, is ready to
revisit the trilogy. In this alternate universe retelling, it's called
the six Faction, and it asked this question, what if
Tris's never actually left home, never took the jump, and
(01:26):
never joined Dauntless in the first place, and if we
zoom out a little. Just like all great dystopian novels,
the six Faction asks a question that feels ripped from
right now. What happens when the authorities in your life
fail you and you have to figure out who you
are without them. It's Tris as you've never seen her
in a world that feels very familiar. So if you've
(01:49):
ever had to find yourself on the other side of
a system that let you down, or if you've ever
looked around and thought who actually has the answers here,
you're in the right place. Let's turn the page with
Veronica Roth. Veronica, welcome to the club.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
I'm so happy to have you here. It is so
cool to talk to the author of a phenomenon.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Weoll aw shucks.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
It has been fifteen years since the last Divergent novel
was in the hands of teenagers across the country, and
I feel like your audience has grown up with you,
but I can imagine that you've grown a lot over
the last fifteen years. So my first question for you is,
how are you? What's going on? What's been happening the
last fifteen years.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I've just been writing books for the last fifteen years.
I feel like this is news to people every time
I say it. But yeah, there's been I think twelve
thirteen books altogether, so you know.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I've been busy, So almost a book a year. Yeah,
about and personally has a lot changed for you, because
like you grew up, did you get married?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So before Divergent came out, I was still in college
and you know, had no money and no job and
not married. And then you know, after the series was finished,
I was married and stable and had a job.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
So it really was like the transitional moment of my
young adulthood.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I would say, well, you rocked. Book called with a
huge announcement Divergent is coming back, so you got to
give me the dates on the new book.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
So the six Faction is an alternate universe sort of
a retelling, but not really. It's an alternate universe story
of Divergent in which Tris makes a different choice of faction,
so that's its basic premise.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
How did it feel to make the announcement and put
it out into the world.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
I mean, it felt like a relief.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I have been working on this for a few years now,
so and it just feels like a really big secret
that I've been carrying around, and it's nice to have
it finally out in the open so I can talk
about what this project has meant to me and you know,
just share it with people.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Finally, why did you feel like now was the time
all these years to return to the original character.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
It's a kind of complicated answer to this question, so
bear with me. But Divergent did a whole lot in
my life, and being honest about it means talking about
the good and the bad, right, But I have always
hesitated to talk about the bad because I don't want to.
I don't want to sound ungrateful for the tremendous things
that it did for me and the opportunities that it
gave me. But there is a kind of dark side
(04:25):
to it, which is that because I'm an anxious person,
I kind of process negativity better than positivity a lot
of the time. And the series itself, not just the ending,
but the whole series attracted a lot of negativity because
it was so popular, which is great, but I kind
of held that in for a long time, and I
think in order to protect myself from the negativity, I
(04:47):
started to agree with it because if I hate the
series too, then it can't hurt me that you hate
it right, not you, but the general use.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
And it was only recently, you.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Know, after a lot of therapy, that I realized that
I don't need to do that, that I can.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Love the work that I made, even if it's imperfect.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
And I wanted to heal my relationship with it, and
for me, as a creative person, the best way to
do that is to make.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Something generative, make it new.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
And I was searching for ways to kind of mend
the way that I feel about Divergent since it's not
going anywhere, which is great, and that's where this project
came from. It was just like a personal quest to
love Divergent again. And I think it worked actually because
writing it was like a way of appreciating when I
did really well the first time around and acknowledging how
(05:37):
much I've grown.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Wow, first of all things, for sharing all of that,
because that's not easy and it's very personal. I can
tell the way you're describing it if you're willing to
share the moment that you decided you were going to
go down this road, because I can imagine you've been
playing with the idea for a while.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
So I went on vacation with my family and Vermont.
It was like a family reunion kind of, And while
I was there, I just I'd been feeling like it's
time to kind of reread or rediscover the books. And
I started with Four, which is the collection of short
stories told from Tobias' perspective that's kind of the fourth
book in the series a little bit, and I just listened.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
To why did you start with four?
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Because I think it felt a little more distant.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I wrote it last, so it was kind of it
was like my most mature, divergent self wrote those stories,
and I thought, you know, he's a little less like
attached to me. You know, she trists, I mean, is
really close to my heart. So I think I wanted
to start at a distance a little bit. And I
listened to it while I was walking back and forth
(06:41):
between the airbnb where I was staying and where my
mother was staying with her brothers and sisters. So I
think I was really worried, like, am I going to
listen to this and feel embarrassed because it's the work
that I did when I was really young and I didn't,
And I think that started my thought like maybe I
could go back to this world, maybe it would be
fun to rehn with these characters again.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
I also feel like it's really important to share with
everyone listening if they're not familiar that you wrote this.
You're the original book on winter break while you were
in college. Winter break is like two weeks long.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
No no ours is forty days because we're on like
a quarter system.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
So it was five weeks.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
It was longer than two weeks. I just want to
be clear about that.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
So you were a senior in college, which made you
what twenty one or twenty two years old? On me too,
twenty two. You wrote this in forty days or so?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Well, I wrote a much shorter version of it in
forty days, So it was I'm not trying to say
that it wasn't like a lot of writing for that time,
but I think that when you look at how chunky
this book is, it's like, how is that possible? But
it was a kind of half as long version of
this when I was twenty two years old.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
I think it's important because the way you're talking about
it is like you were saying, was I going to
be embarrassed going back to it? And when you originally
wrote the book, you were just a few years older
than the characters you were writing about. Yeah, And now
fifteen years later you're like, I don't know the definition
of a generation, but you're kind of like a generation
ahead of them now. So I just I do think
(08:15):
you looked at everything with different eyes.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah, And I think any work that you do when
you're twenty two years old, you're going to look back
at and be like, oh god, okay. I think that's
just natural. But when it's the thing that you're the
most well known for, it becomes a little complicated.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
I can imagine that we're getting this sort of alternate
reality version of the story with Tris all over again.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
So what do you think OG readers can expect to
get out of the retelling?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I think alternate universe is so much fun because it's
it introduces things that you're familiar with back to you
in different contexts. So I think it feels like discovering
a bunch of easter eggs, a little bit like, oh, man,
is she going to find a way to incorporate this
or how will this significant event in the original change
because of these choices? So it's I think it's a
(09:07):
little bit like a word search or a crossword puzzle
in addition to being hopefully entertaining and meaningful in the
way that every book is. I think it will be
a lot of fun for people to read. It was
fun for me to write.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
If it was fun to write, it'll be fun to read.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
That's the hope. Anyway.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, well, I think most dystopian stories start with a rebel,
and yours is asking the opposite. You're asking what if
the protagonist never chose to leave and just stayed home.
It's kind of like the anti hero hero journey. Yeah,
what about that? What if was so interesting to you? Well?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
When I first proposed it, my agent, who's the only
one I would talk to about it for a long
time because it was so top secret feeling, and then
it was top secret for a while, but she was like, well,
how could she choose am negation?
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Like who? How will that be interesting? And I was like, oh,
just wait.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
So I think it felt like a new challenge to
the this choice that felt really boring to me originally.
You know, when I originally chose for Trist to choose dauntless,
it was like, well, that's the only way that the
story can work. And I've said that in quite a
few interviews over the last fifteen years, like the story
does not go if she doesn't choose this faction, and
(10:17):
to walk that back and try and find something interesting
in the midst of it, it felt like rediscovering her
and who she could be, you know, without this defining character.
And it's kind of like a Trists for a new
generation too, because the struggles of teenagers now are a
lot different from when I was a teenager.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Can you say more about that?
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah, I think I've really connected in the past few
years with you know ya novels that explore kind of
loss of innocence or faith in the systems that are
supposed to support them, and I think this is an
example of that. She is, throughout the course of the
new novel, discovering the ways that authorities in her life
(11:00):
have failed her and continue to fail her. And I
think that just feels like I don't know that feels
like exactly the moment that we're in right now.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I always think that dystopian stories reflect where we are
in culture.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yes, yeah, especially like the classic nineteen eighty four was
supposed to be a critique of, you know, what was
going on at the time, and of course now it
feels predictive and it feels so scary relevant. But in
the moment, it's just supposed to be a social critique of, like,
what's happening around him at the time that he's writing.
So I think since our most famous examples of dystopian
(11:37):
fiction that has been you know, they're just like an
exaggeration of what's going on now.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Do you consider this new novel a social critique?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
I think it's unavoidable to do social critique, especially in
dystopian fiction, because you're looking at you know, what's around
you now and trying to exaggerate it or shine a
light on it in a new way. But I will
say that Divergent of all the y a dystope feels most.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Like fantasy to me.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
It's not you know, we're not like on the verge
of dividing into five virtue based factions. That feels like
more like a like a fun thought experiment than an
actual social critique.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
So while there's room for that in.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
The story, as there is in any story, I wouldn't
say that it's like primarily a social critique.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
No, yeah, it's not a mirror. It's not reflective.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Yeah, it's more like it's an adventure.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Was Tris in the original reflective of you at all?
Speaker 3 (12:28):
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
I think Tris did what I could never have imagined doing,
you know, I was. I'm not I'm a very reserved person.
I'm not a particularly brave person. I have a lot
of anxiety, you know, and I am always trying to
be considerate of the people around me, even when I'm
not able to do so. So I think all those
qualities they're not Ris qualities. She's like a little bit
(12:51):
of a like a dream self, you know, like what
if I could do all these things that I'm afraid of?
And I think writing about her doing things made me
feel almost like I was preparing myself to do them.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
She's fun.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
How did you share her bravery which is such a
defining characteristic for her in this new novel When she's
staying at home and I say that in a very
sort of just like colloquial, simplified way.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
She's still brave.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
She still cares about what's right, and I think focusing
on that quality, that commitment to finding some kind of
righteous path forward even if it's difficult, is a quality
that she carries over So that makes her brave even
when she's not choosing dauntless.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Does her choice to stay at home relate to you
more than it did when you were twenty two and
wrote this originally?
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yeah, I think this feeling of loyalty to family is
really what it's about in that moment, Like she doesn't
want to, she doesn't want to avoid difficult things. She
just feels that in that moment her priority is with family,
and I think I relate to that. You know, as
someone whose parents are getting older, it feels more important
than ever to connect with them and make sure that
(14:02):
you make the most of the time you have left.
So I think that part of it felt really relevant
to where I'm at now. Although it was hard to
get back into a sixteen year old headspace, I will
tell you.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I can imagine. But I think also the fans of
the book originally are now in their thirties, so it'll
find a new set of fans. And also I think
these thirty something year olds will be really excited to
connect with a new version of her.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yes, And then I will also note that there are
still people finding these books, and I know that because
they'll they'll send me direct messages on Instagram or wherever.
They'll be like, I'm in the middle of a legion.
I love this series, and I'll be like, oh, no,
good luck.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Well, actually, how do you feel when people write you
if you had such a fraught relationship with the series
for so long.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Well, the part of me that has a fraught relationship
with it is it's not about the readers, and it
never has been. They've always been wonderful, even when they're
yelling at me, you know. I just I love that
anyone connects to my work and that they continue to
connect with it as kind of like a miracle. So
I'm always happy when people reach out. My complex feelings
are more about, like you know, creative work and trying
(15:12):
to grow and all that stuff.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
So it's separate from them.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
So it wasn't about the stories. It was about you
wanting to do something else.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
No, I think it's more about wanting to know that
you can grow as a creative person and people will
let you. So when people keep referring to the work
that you started your career with, I think it's natural
to feel a little complicated about that because you're like, Okay,
but I'm still working and I would love the freedom
to do, you know, the things that I'm excited about
now and not just have to stick with what I
(15:42):
did when I was twenty two for the rest of
my life. So I think that is that's the complicated
part that's a little hard to explain to people Like I.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I get that, yeah, and there's.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Just things that like I wish I'd done better in
the original obviously because it's a fifteen year old work.
So if I wasn't realizing what I would have done
differently than I'm not growing.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
So did you make those corrections, so to speak, in
this new version?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
I did, Yeah, And that was kind of a relief
to do is like popping a pimple or something. It
was like, yes, I can finally, you know, just like
make this sturdier. I feel like the world building for me,
what I most wanted to correct was just to make
everything feel like a better built structure. So maybe readers
(16:24):
will care about it, maybe they won't, but for me
it was a relief.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
How do you feel like you got better at world
building over the last fifteen years? Did you take classes?
Did you read other people's work? How did that happen?
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Well, to get better at writing, there's two things you
need to do, and one is read books, and not
just read them, because you can kind of passively absorb
something without learning from it, but to read it really
thoughtfully and to look at how it's constructed and to
make note of the things that you admire.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
And the other thing is just to practice.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
So the more stories you write, the better you'll get
at the art of writing. So I think just through repetition,
I've gotten better and I know what kind of questions
to ask myself, and I've observed more about the world
around us, so it's easier to like extrapolate it from there.
And you know, time is a useful teacher.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Are there any questions that you could share that you
specifically ask yourself when you write? I think that would
be so helpful to hear.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
This is going to sound silly, but I promise it's
bigger than it sounds. But when Neil Berger, the director
of the first Divergent movie, was trying to plan, he
called me and he asked me how the plumbing works,
and I was like, Neil, I don't know. I actually
don't know how the plumbing works in this city, like
who's doing it?
Speaker 4 (17:42):
Does?
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Where is it?
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Like who's running the water filtration center anyway, So there's
a little bit of a nod to that in the
six Faction. There is an answer to that question, Neil,
if you're listening, and I think.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
It, that's a kind of bigger question.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
So it's more about like who are the people who
are doing the thankless work in this world? And you know,
how do we how do we explore that and at
least have an answer to those questions about like how
the clock ticks basically.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
So I'm glad he asked me that question.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I would have never thought of that, I know it.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
And I was like, what about currency, Neil, stop asking
me things I still don't.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Definitely don't ask me about money.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, Like I didn't build you just there's so many
systems that make the world run, and I think now
that I'm older, I just have encountered more of them.
You know, when I wrote this original book, I hadn't
paid taxes, so it would or rent like because I
was living in a dorm. So it's just you know,
it was a.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Great Probably had a debit card.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
I did.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
I had a debit card with all of one hundred
dollars on it at any given time, which actually was
you know, that can go a long way in column.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Okay. I have a question about the phenomenon of it
all because when we opened our conversation and I call
it a phenomenon, you winced.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I mean, I think this is the Midwest jumping out right.
I'm just like, oh god.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Ugh, I so get it. We have a built in humility. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
I think it's kind of encouraged culturally to be like
as salt of the earth kind of person. And so
when people describe your work as a phenomenon, imagine if
I was like, yeah, it really is, isn't it like
that would feel.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
It would feel an authentic let's put it that way.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Well, I want to ask about it only because you
had sort of this meteoric rise, and not only is
that rare in general, it's rare for authors. I'm so
curious to hear what you felt unprepared for.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
I think just the sheer amount of eyes was shocking.
I just I don't like to be perceived. You know,
I'm an author, so I volunteered to spend years at
a time alone in a room with my own thoughts.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
That's what writing books is, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So to ask someone with that personality to go to
a movie premiere, it's like a Really it's a big ask,
and I tried to rise to the occasion, and I
think I did a pretty good job.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
But I it was just like it was.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
A lot, and I was unmedicated at that time, so
I have rectified that since then.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Did you have like, I cannot believe this is my life,
like a moment where you felt that way? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (20:28):
I had.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
I mean, I had so many of those moments, But
I think the most memorable one is probably stepping on
set for the first time, because I don't know, I
had never you know, I never thought I would see
a movie set and for it to be It was
in Chicago, so we just kind of drove there, me
and my husband, and it felt like walking into my
own brain in the weirdest way possible. Because some parts
(20:49):
of the Divergent movie are very different from what I
thought they would look like, but a lot of them
are very similar, especially the fighting arenas.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
The whole Dauntless compound is very similar.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
So that's where I went the first day, and it
was unreal. It was I mean, I also had like
panic bladder. I was like, Oh, no, where do I
go in this warehouse?
Speaker 1 (21:09):
I cannot imagine what that was like to step onto
a set and you had imagined all of this in
your brain.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah, and they were The Chicago Teamsters Union was hard
on me.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Occasionally. They were like, why did you do this? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Only only in a fun way, but they had to
like reconstruct an L train car, you know, like from scratch.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Speaking of revisiting your work, you did something very few stories.
Do you killed your main character in a first person
death scene. What was the craziest fan theory that you
saw come out of the trilogy.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I think the the craziest one is that Tris was
pregnant when she was killed, And I'm like.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
That's just so dark for no reason. It's already dark.
We don't need to make it darker.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah, but there's also the like, oh, was it all
a dream? You know, it's all a simulation that fan theory.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Is pretty funny.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
I read that one.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
I mean, people should write all the fan pic I
support it.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
You're into it, Yeah, you read through all of it.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
No, I think it's really not it's not my space,
Like it's not for me, but I love that it's happening.
I feel like it's very similar to what I ended
up doing with the six faction. It's just like, yeah,
people take like to take the framework that exists and
play with it. And that's the wonderful thing about fan
fiction is that you get to use someone else's sandbox.
(22:34):
So there's some things that are already developed, so you
don't have to do every piece of work with world building,
but you get to make the characters more flexible and
adjust the world building. And I've seen, I don't know,
I've seen some really amazing stuff come out of fan fiction.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
So it's great.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
If a producer called Tomorrow and said they wanted to
reboot the film series of Divergent, what would you say,
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
I mean, I think movie adaptations, even when they're not
faithful to the source material, are good for authors. So
and a strictly practical business level, it gives you a
reach that you will never get without it, so it's
really hard to say no to it. And I have
experienced that firsthand, so I don't think I would say no,
But you know, you want something good and like interesting
(23:26):
to come out of it, you know, I think i'd
want them to have like a new take. Oh you know,
what do you feel that you didn't get the first
time that you want to do this time?
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I love this quote that I read from you in
an interview with Slate. Divergent was the first time I
really let myself be the writer I actually was, instead
of the one I thought I was supposed to be.
Who did you think you were supposed to be? Well?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
It came from the Creative Writing program at Northwestern University,
which is a very prestigious writing program that I'm super
grateful to have been accepted into, and it taught me
so much. But what it trains you to do is
to be an author or a writer of literary fiction,
which is I mean, I still read literary fiction and
I love it, but it was just not what I
(24:09):
was interested in writing because I'm such a committed science
fiction and fantasy reader and writer, and so I think
I felt like I don't know, I had to write
something I don't know, more lyrical, more poetic, and my
actual style is pretty pared down and straightforward. It's grown
since then, but you know, if you read Divergent, you'll
(24:30):
see it at its peak form.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
It's just like really spare writing.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
And so I think I just when I wrote Diversion,
I kind of freed myself to have that kind of
voice and to like, you know, all the quote unquote
silly genre things that I liked. I've since gone back
to Northwestern to talk to my professors, and I think
it's become more flexible in the years since I attended,
So that's really exciting. I mean, there's ways to do
genre fiction that are still very literary. So I'm glad
(24:55):
that students in the program now are exploring that a
little more. But when I was there, I felt I
think it was self imposed, like, oh I am in
order to be serious, I can't write about these things.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
How would you describe yourself as a writer today?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I think I'm a thoughtful writer. I'm very very concerned
with the emotional, like inner lives of my characters. I
think I'm an emotional writer too, Like the world building
is great, I love it. I love like engaging the
puzzle solving part of my brain, which I think is
what is active when you're building a world. It's like, Okay,
(25:28):
how do all these pieces fit together?
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (25:30):
And how do I answer all of these questions and
make this feel like it a machine that works? So
I like that, but I think for me, it will
always be in service to the emotional lives of the
characters and you know what they're doing moving forward.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
So I have a question about the puzzle piece. So
I've heard you describe your writing as pared down and straightforward,
and I think dystopia is such a huge genre, like
how do you write small inside of a big world?
Speaker 2 (25:58):
I think you have to focus on the intimacy between
the characters. So I think this is done with mixed
success in the Divergent series. In some ways, it got
way too big for me, and because I think when
I was writing it, it had changed so much about
my life that I felt like the story needed to
take up as much space as possible because it took
up so much space for me.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
And that's why in the last book.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
It's so much world building and such big moments and
big character beats, and you know, just as big as
possible in some ways. But what actually works about Allegiance
still is the Tobias Evelyn storyline. So that's an intimate
mother son like growth arc, like the way that they
(26:40):
deal with each other. I feel still emotional about it
when I reread it, and so I look back at
that and think like, ah, if only you had understood
that keeping things small is a way of making them
feel big.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
And you see that with like.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
The Pit, right, Like the Pit takes plays over the
TV show in case anyone is confused about the Pit
at this point, TV show takes place over fifteen hours.
So that's a really small story like it's but because
you care so much about everybody involved in it, like
you don't need you know, big huge swells of music
and like heroic character death in order for the story
(27:16):
to feel important. So I think I've learned that over
the last you know, fifteen years.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
It just seems like it'd be particularly hard to do
in the genre that you write. It's really amazing.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Thanks, Yeah, yeah, I mean you just keep it, keep
it about the people.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
I guess it's the big piece of advice.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Can I ask you what other advice you would share
with young writers who are looking to find their voice.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Well, I think for young writers specifically, they put a
lot of pressure on themselves to finish and I don't know.
My main piece of advice is to focus on school. Sorry, okay, mom, No,
I mean writing should be fun. It should be a release.
It should be it should be playful, it should be mental.
And that's like what's going to carry you through the
(28:02):
rest of your life, Like it's not getting a book done. Like,
if you want to do that, then great, But I
just don't think young people should be putting all this.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Pressure on themselves. This world is already hard enough.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
You just you should teach yourself to have fun with
writing because when hard things happen as a writer, and
they happen to us all, eventually, what carries you through
is the love of the work that you're doing. So
if you can learn that early, then you'll be set.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Do you think that there's a way to tell that
you've found your voice? Does something click for me?
Speaker 2 (28:34):
In the writing program in Northwestern I had to do
nonfiction because everyone does poetry, fiction and creative nonfiction. I
got a piece back that was a nonfiction piece, and
my teacher circled a paragraph in it and she was like,
this is the good writing in the piece.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Huh.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Just pretty straightforward.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
I mean, it was kind of a devastating thing to see,
but she was right, and it was more like the
divergent voice.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
It was just very, very crisp and clear.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
And I started to focus on clarity at that point,
because clarity.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Is hard, really hard.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yes, so I think people underestimate that in writing. But
I think that kind of moment, like, Aha, she's right,
this is the best writing, and what if I could
do that more so I hope. I don't know how
it works for other people. Maybe they have those little
aha moments themselves, but that's how it worked for me.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
That's cool to hear because I love to write, and
I think there's probably a lot of listeners who love
to write, and it's really hard to think about getting
better without a program. So I love hearing that.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
No, you don't need school to become better at writing.
You heard it here first. One of my best writer
friends is Courtney Summers, and she did not I think
she got her ged.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
She finished high school. She's an amazing writer. She's just
a student of the written word.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
What are you so obsessed with right now that you
could write a book about it?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
You know what I am noticing I love is procedurals.
So police procedurals, yes, but medical procedurals. And I'm just like,
clearly you're destined to write a mystery or some kind
of crime solving, like I just it has to happen eventually.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yes, we need a Veronica Rof mystery.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, I dipped a toe before, but I think I
don't know, I'm figuring out. You know, you have to
pay attention to what you're obsessed with as a writer
because it's going to come up eventually.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
So like, besides the pit are you, you're watching SVU?
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Like, what are you?
Speaker 1 (30:38):
What are you obsessing over?
Speaker 4 (30:39):
Well?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
I told a joke online recently that you can tell
where I'm at emotionally by which crime drama I'm currently rewatching.
And I think it was most recently was.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
The Good Wife. And that's a good place to be
for me. The Good Wife is a plus.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Well, first of all, we love the Chicago like you
really stayed true to your roots. I know I do.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
I love my Citias too.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
I love that about you. I interviewed Julianne Marglice, and
I was like, how the hell did you memorize all
those words?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
I mean, first of all, what did you do? I mean,
just looking at her, I'm like, Wow, what a face.
I can't even pay attention.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
She's so special. So when you imagine new teenagers finding
this new version of Divergent, what are you hoping that
they feel and take away from the book.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
I mean, mostly when people read my work, what I
hope is that they're entertained by it, because I mean
that sounds like a small thing, but especially teenagers like
just need a break, you know. That's what I remember
about being an adolescent in general, is that I just
needed like moments of respite. So I hope that it
is primarily a good time, but I hope they feel
(31:48):
seen by it too. I really reflected a lot on
what they're dealing with generationally right now as I was
writing it, and tried to keep it true to what
an actual sixteen year old would do and how they
would act. So I don't know, Yeah, I hope it
resonates with them.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
If I put five million dollars on the table right
now and I said, you can have this if you
go back to being sixteen. Would you do it? No? No,
absolutely me neither. Yeah, being sixteen was so hard.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
It was rough.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Man.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
I had no tools to get through it either.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
You feel so grown up but you don't know anything.
That's a that's a terrible place to be, just delusional.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah, that is the epitome of delulu is being sixteen.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
I know, but there's it's unavoidable there. It's just how
it is to be that age. So God bless them.
I do love teenagers a lot. I miss I miss
doing school visits and talking to them more.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Did you find yourself drawn to anything new while you
were writing this one, because I feel like the genre
requires a slice of reality too, even though it's dystopian fiction.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
I think I was drawn a lot more to the
adult characters and what they're planning, and of course, like
that makes perfect sense because I'm older now and I'm like,
but you know, it always has to.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Be in relation to our young characters.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Otherwise it's not really why a so I try to
keep the focus on them. But I was much more
interested in especially mother figures in the six faction, so
it's not just Tris's mom but other women in the city.
Who are very important and whose you know, whose manipulations
affect her?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Can I ask you why?
Speaker 3 (33:28):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
I think it comes from because it's a much more
of a mother daughter story than the original series. Because
in the original series, her mom, by necessity, has to
like disappear for a lot of it. But in the
new one, you know, she stays in her faction for
a while, so they just have to interact more, and
I think you get to know her a lot better,
And so it kind of comes from that.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Is there anything from the original that returned that? Yeah,
you're smiling.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Yes, I just think people probably be worried. Does she
have a different love interest because she doesn't join Dauntless
you know? But no she doesn't.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Oh wait, that's very exciting to learn.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
Yeah, I just found a different way for them.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Yeah, to a different meat cute.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Oh yeah, do you just wait?
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Is it a meat cute or is it a is
it a meat hopelessness or harps? Say?
Speaker 3 (34:24):
I think it's a meat tense great in a hot way.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
That's exciting. I'm really happy you shared that. Thank you.
I'm hoping and wondering if you're willing to create a
world with me today.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Oh god.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Okay, yeah, sure, we're going to do it together. Okay, okay,
so we're going to write a dystopian novel. What do
you think the time and setting is? What's the world
we're in?
Speaker 3 (34:50):
I mean?
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Okay, so timeline is like my is my the bane
of my existence? Because I don't feel like I understand
how long it takes to do anything.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Okay, I'll do this one. Yes, the time is year
three thousand.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Who's in charge? Who's the regime?
Speaker 3 (35:05):
Well?
Speaker 2 (35:07):
I always start by building a system. So that's like
an educational system, a government, a religion. And I in
college almost majored in religious studies, which is the secular
study of religion at Northwestern. So I feel like we
should have a weird religion have taken over? But what
are they into?
Speaker 1 (35:25):
What are they into? They are into hot tubbing.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Hot dubbing okay, yeah, pro hot tubbing.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
So have they then settled on all of the hot
springs of the planet, Yes, for energy conservation purposes.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
And what is the central rule that they must obey?
Speaker 3 (35:45):
No peeing in the hot tub? So it's really important
self monitoring behavior. Yes, shower before you.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Know, yeah, and if you pee it turns bright purple.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
Yeah, everyone knows.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Public shaming.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Yes, public shaming is a big part of the hot
tubbing people's lifestyle.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Oh God, who is our main character? Who are we following?
Speaker 2 (36:09):
I think we need someone who for some reason cannot
or does not want to engage with the hot tubbing.
So maybe they're like they melt, yeah, or they're like
allergic to water. They can't fit in you know, right,
can't participate in the religion of the hot tubbists.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, the hot tub hotties. How old are they?
Speaker 2 (36:30):
I mean sixteen? This is the prime hot tubbing time.
That's the most hot tumming.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
I ever did was when I was sixteen, especially in.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Chicago, you know, with the snow falling, Like someone has
a cabin somewhere, that's the dream.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
What's the moment that cracks their world open? What's our
inciting incident?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Well, it's gotta be some kind of conspiracy. Yeah, So
what's a hot dub conspiracy. Maybe it's been uh, they've
been exaggerating the health benefits of the hot tub that's great. Yeah,
and this character thinks that's bullsh and goes on a
quest to discover the truth, which is that there's no
health benefits and in fact, you know they're bacteria assessments.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Right, and they discovered a lie. What is our emotional core?
What is this story really all about?
Speaker 2 (37:13):
It feels like it's about fitting in, right, Yeah, belonging, belonging?
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Where do I belong? The central question of YA in general?
Speaker 1 (37:21):
What's the climax? What's our final showdown?
Speaker 2 (37:23):
I think it's you got to like unplug all the
hot tubs or something like force people to live without them.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Woe freaks out.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Yeah, it's like that.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Which season of Mister Robot did they like end the
internet basically? Or oh they ended like currency?
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Yeah that was Y two K where we ended the Internet?
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Remember?
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Yeah, my gosh, we're so worried.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
It's so much bottled water in my basement?
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Did you man?
Speaker 2 (37:46):
I don't even remember. I don't think I did anything.
I was like, I'm just gonna lay down and see
what happens.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Okay, what's our ending? Are we hopeful? Are we bittersweet?
Does the revolution succeed?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I think you need a hopeful ending. You don't need it,
but I like a hopeful ending. I've already done my
dark endings. I think I was gonna.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Say I've had my phil Do we have a sequel? Hook?
What is the lingering threat that makes readers desperate for
book two? You know what?
Speaker 2 (38:12):
I want to see a love triangle. I know it's controversial,
but I miss them. I want them back, Team Edward,
team Jacob, give it to me. I love it, Yeah,
because we're better than in a hot tub exactly. And
I feel like it's always a choice between identity, you know,
So it's like who do I want to be? Do
I want to be a rebel hot tub person? Or
do I want to maybe like investigate the status quo?
(38:34):
So like maybe there's dream hot tub guy. This is
getting sillier the more I think about it.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
First of all, I ruined it by calling out the
hot tub people. But Veronica, thank you, thank you for
joining us. You've been so fun.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Okay friends. Before we wrap today's episode, I'm bringing back
our monthly comfort segment from Cotton, called the Book Nook.
This is where we explore the rituals that make reading
feel just right. And with spring officially here, it feels
like the perfect time to talk about those fresh air
(39:13):
reading moments, the ones where you can finally take your
book outside and soak it all in. As you know,
cotton is at the heart of so many of those
everyday comforts, whether it's your softest worn in tea, a
breathable sun dress, or a lightweight blanket you can stretch
out in the grass. Cotton helps keep us cool, comfortable,
and grounded, which makes it the perfect companion for a
(39:34):
good book. Let's hear from another Bookmarked listener sharing their
ideal reading setup.
Speaker 4 (39:40):
Hi, Bookmark ty Danielle. This is Maddie calling in from Cleveland, Ohio.
My favorite reading setup is a little seasonal, but I
love going over to my parents' house and they live
in a more real part of Ohio, and they have
(40:04):
a huge backyard garden, and I love in like the
early spring, early summer before it gets too hot, laying
out on a big blanket on the grass next to
the garden and reading. I love feeling the sun on
my face as I finish a new chapter. I love
(40:26):
hearing all of the tiny little sounds of nature around me.
And I love when what's going on around me and
what's going on in the page sort of blend and
blur together, so it's I have a lot of memories
of finishing a book or finishing a chapter. With all
(40:50):
of that happening, it makes it feel really visceral, which
totally makes sense, because the best kind of writing off
the page and really transports you.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Mattie, this is so beautiful that early spring light, the
quiet helm of a garden waking up, and a blanket
stretched out under you. It's the kind of setting that
turns reading into a full sensory experience. I love how
you describe the blur between the world around you and
the story in your hands. That's exactly the magic we're
all chasing, isn't it. And there's something so special about
(41:30):
those in between seasons, when the air is soft, the
sun isn't too strong, and you can settle in comfortably,
maybe in your favorite cotton tea, and just get lost
in a book. It feels like a reset in the
very best way. So friends, keep your ideal reading setups coming.
What are you wearing? What's around you? Are you stretched
out in the sunshine, curled up by an open window,
(41:52):
under a cotton throw or your coziest layers? Take me
right into your perfect reading ritual. Leave me a voicemail
at five zearo O one two night one three three
seven nine, or email me a voice memo to Bookmark
at Reese's book Club dot com. Thanks to Cotton for
bringing this segment to life and reminding us that comfort
and style can go hand in hand. Don't forget to
(42:13):
check the tag for Cotton, and if you want to
learn more, head to the fabric of OurLives dot com.
That's it for this episode of Bookmarked by Reese's book Club.
Our phone line is now open, so if you want
to go nineties on us, give us a call at
(42:34):
one five zero one two nine to one three three
seven nine. That's one five zero one two nine to
one three three seven nine. Share your literary hot takes,
your book recommendations, questions about the monthly pick, or let
us know what you think about the episode you just heard,
and who knows, you might just hear yourself in our
(42:56):
next episode, so don't overthink it. Give us a ring,
and if you want more, come hang with us. Reese's
book Club is on Instagram, serving up books, good vibes,
and all the behind the scenes stuff you love. And
I'm at Danielle robe ro ba y, so come say
hi and please seriously DM me because I actually read them,
and I love hearing what you think about the episodes,
(43:18):
and don't forget to follow. Bookmarked by Reese's book Club
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.
We'll see you in the next chapter. Bookmarked is a
production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts, Executive produced by
Reese Witherspoon and me Danielle Robe, production by Acast Creative Studios.
Our producers are Matty Foley, Brittany Martinez, and Sarah Schleid.
(43:41):
Our editor is Carmen Borca Carrillo. Our production assistant is
Avery Loftis. Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder are executive producers
for a Cast Creative Studios. Maureene Polo and Reese Witherspoon
are executive producers for Hello Sunshine. Olga Cominwa, Kristin Perla,
Ashley Rappaport and Sarah Kernerman are associate producers for Reese's
(44:01):
book Club, and Ali Perry is executive producer for iHeart Podcasts.
Bookmarked by Reese's book Club is presented by Apple Books. Hi,
I'm Danielle Robe and welcome to Bookmarked by Reese's book Club. Today,
I'm bringing you the hottest piece of news from bookcom
Are you ready? Okay, drum roll please? Divergent is back.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
It's kind of like a Trists for a new generation.
She is, throughout the course of the new novel, discovering
the ways that authorities in her life have failed her
and continue to fail her. And I think that just
feels like, I don't know, that feels like exactly the
moment that we're in right now.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
So if you need a little refresher or you're discovering
it for the first time, here's the world Veronica built.
Divergent is a ya dystopia set in a future Chicago
where society is divided into factions based on personality traits.
But the main character, Tris doesn't really fit neatly into
one box, and so her story begins. If you remember,
(01:02):
Divergent sold more than thirty five million copies worldwide. It
was a phenomenon since it came out fifteen years ago,
and now it's author of Veronica Roth, is ready to
revisit the trilogy. In this alternate universe retelling, it's called
the six Faction, and it asked this question, what if
Tris's never actually left home, never took the jump, and
(01:26):
never joined Dauntless in the first place, and if we
zoom out a little. Just like all great dystopian novels,
the six Faction asks a question that feels ripped from
right now. What happens when the authorities in your life
fail you and you have to figure out who you
are without them. It's Tris as you've never seen her
in a world that feels very familiar. So if you've
(01:49):
ever had to find yourself on the other side of
a system that let you down, or if you've ever
looked around and thought who actually has the answers here,
you're in the right place. Let's turn the page with
Veronica Roth. Veronica, welcome to the club.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
I'm so happy to have you here. It is so
cool to talk to the author of a phenomenon.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Weoll aw shucks.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
It has been fifteen years since the last Divergent novel
was in the hands of teenagers across the country, and
I feel like your audience has grown up with you,
but I can imagine that you've grown a lot over
the last fifteen years. So my first question for you is,
how are you? What's going on? What's been happening the
last fifteen years.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I've just been writing books for the last fifteen years.
I feel like this is news to people every time
I say it. But yeah, there's been I think twelve
thirteen books altogether, so you know.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I've been busy, So almost a book a year. Yeah,
about and personally has a lot changed for you, because
like you grew up, did you get married?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So before Divergent came out, I was still in college
and you know, had no money and no job and
not married. And then you know, after the series was finished,
I was married and stable and had a job.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
So it really was like the transitional moment of my
young adulthood.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I would say, well, you rocked. Book called with a
huge announcement Divergent is coming back, so you got to
give me the dates on the new book.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
So the six Faction is an alternate universe sort of
a retelling, but not really. It's an alternate universe story
of Divergent in which Tris makes a different choice of faction,
so that's its basic premise.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
How did it feel to make the announcement and put
it out into the world.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
I mean, it felt like a relief.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I have been working on this for a few years now,
so and it just feels like a really big secret
that I've been carrying around, and it's nice to have
it finally out in the open so I can talk
about what this project has meant to me and you know,
just share it with people.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Finally, why did you feel like now was the time
all these years to return to the original character.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
It's a kind of complicated answer to this question, so
bear with me. But Divergent did a whole lot in
my life, and being honest about it means talking about
the good and the bad, right, But I have always
hesitated to talk about the bad because I don't want to.
I don't want to sound ungrateful for the tremendous things
that it did for me and the opportunities that it
gave me. But there is a kind of dark side
(04:25):
to it, which is that because I'm an anxious person,
I kind of process negativity better than positivity a lot
of the time. And the series itself, not just the ending,
but the whole series attracted a lot of negativity because
it was so popular, which is great, but I kind
of held that in for a long time, and I
think in order to protect myself from the negativity, I
(04:47):
started to agree with it because if I hate the
series too, then it can't hurt me that you hate
it right, not you, but the general use.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
And it was only recently, you.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Know, after a lot of therapy, that I realized that
I don't need to do that, that I can.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Love the work that I made, even if it's imperfect.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
And I wanted to heal my relationship with it, and
for me, as a creative person, the best way to
do that is to make.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Something generative, make it new.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
And I was searching for ways to kind of mend
the way that I feel about Divergent since it's not
going anywhere, which is great, and that's where this project
came from. It was just like a personal quest to
love Divergent again. And I think it worked actually because
writing it was like a way of appreciating when I
did really well the first time around and acknowledging how
(05:37):
much I've grown.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Wow, first of all things, for sharing all of that,
because that's not easy and it's very personal. I can
tell the way you're describing it if you're willing to
share the moment that you decided you were going to
go down this road, because I can imagine you've been
playing with the idea for a while.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
So I went on vacation with my family and Vermont.
It was like a family reunion kind of, And while
I was there, I just I'd been feeling like it's
time to kind of reread or rediscover the books. And
I started with Four, which is the collection of short
stories told from Tobias' perspective that's kind of the fourth
book in the series a little bit, and I just listened.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
To why did you start with four?
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Because I think it felt a little more distant.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I wrote it last, so it was kind of it
was like my most mature, divergent self wrote those stories,
and I thought, you know, he's a little less like
attached to me. You know, she trists, I mean, is
really close to my heart. So I think I wanted
to start at a distance a little bit. And I
listened to it while I was walking back and forth
(06:41):
between the airbnb where I was staying and where my
mother was staying with her brothers and sisters. So I
think I was really worried, like, am I going to
listen to this and feel embarrassed because it's the work
that I did when I was really young and I didn't,
And I think that started my thought like maybe I
could go back to this world, maybe it would be
fun to rehn with these characters again.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
I also feel like it's really important to share with
everyone listening if they're not familiar that you wrote this.
You're the original book on winter break while you were
in college. Winter break is like two weeks long.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
No no ours is forty days because we're on like
a quarter system.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
So it was five weeks.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
It was longer than two weeks. I just want to
be clear about that.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
So you were a senior in college, which made you
what twenty one or twenty two years old? On me too,
twenty two. You wrote this in forty days or so?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Well, I wrote a much shorter version of it in
forty days, So it was I'm not trying to say
that it wasn't like a lot of writing for that time,
but I think that when you look at how chunky
this book is, it's like, how is that possible? But
it was a kind of half as long version of
this when I was twenty two years old.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
I think it's important because the way you're talking about
it is like you were saying, was I going to
be embarrassed going back to it? And when you originally
wrote the book, you were just a few years older
than the characters you were writing about. Yeah, And now
fifteen years later you're like, I don't know the definition
of a generation, but you're kind of like a generation
ahead of them now. So I just I do think
(08:15):
you looked at everything with different eyes.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah, And I think any work that you do when
you're twenty two years old, you're going to look back
at and be like, oh god, okay. I think that's
just natural. But when it's the thing that you're the
most well known for, it becomes a little complicated.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
I can imagine that we're getting this sort of alternate
reality version of the story with Tris all over again.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
So what do you think OG readers can expect to
get out of the retelling?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I think alternate universe is so much fun because it's
it introduces things that you're familiar with back to you
in different contexts. So I think it feels like discovering
a bunch of easter eggs, a little bit like, oh, man,
is she going to find a way to incorporate this
or how will this significant event in the original change
because of these choices? So it's I think it's a
(09:07):
little bit like a word search or a crossword puzzle
in addition to being hopefully entertaining and meaningful in the
way that every book is. I think it will be
a lot of fun for people to read. It was
fun for me to write.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
If it was fun to write, it'll be fun to read.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
That's the hope. Anyway.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, well, I think most dystopian stories start with a rebel,
and yours is asking the opposite. You're asking what if
the protagonist never chose to leave and just stayed home.
It's kind of like the anti hero hero journey. Yeah,
what about that? What if was so interesting to you? Well?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
When I first proposed it, my agent, who's the only
one I would talk to about it for a long
time because it was so top secret feeling, and then
it was top secret for a while, but she was like, well,
how could she choose am negation?
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Like who? How will that be interesting? And I was like, oh,
just wait.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
So I think it felt like a new challenge to
the this choice that felt really boring to me originally.
You know, when I originally chose for Trist to choose dauntless,
it was like, well, that's the only way that the
story can work. And I've said that in quite a
few interviews over the last fifteen years, like the story
does not go if she doesn't choose this faction, and
(10:17):
to walk that back and try and find something interesting
in the midst of it, it felt like rediscovering her
and who she could be, you know, without this defining character.
And it's kind of like a Trists for a new
generation too, because the struggles of teenagers now are a
lot different from when I was a teenager.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Can you say more about that?
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah, I think I've really connected in the past few
years with you know ya novels that explore kind of
loss of innocence or faith in the systems that are
supposed to support them, and I think this is an
example of that. She is, throughout the course of the
new novel, discovering the ways that authorities in her life
(11:00):
have failed her and continue to fail her. And I
think that just feels like I don't know that feels
like exactly the moment that we're in right now.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I always think that dystopian stories reflect where we are
in culture.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yes, yeah, especially like the classic nineteen eighty four was
supposed to be a critique of, you know, what was
going on at the time, and of course now it
feels predictive and it feels so scary relevant. But in
the moment, it's just supposed to be a social critique of, like,
what's happening around him at the time that he's writing.
So I think since our most famous examples of dystopian
(11:37):
fiction that has been you know, they're just like an
exaggeration of what's going on now.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Do you consider this new novel a social critique?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
I think it's unavoidable to do social critique, especially in
dystopian fiction, because you're looking at you know, what's around
you now and trying to exaggerate it or shine a
light on it in a new way. But I will
say that Divergent of all the y a dystope feels most.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Like fantasy to me.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
It's not you know, we're not like on the verge
of dividing into five virtue based factions. That feels like
more like a like a fun thought experiment than an
actual social critique.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
So while there's room for that in.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
The story, as there is in any story, I wouldn't
say that it's like primarily a social critique.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
No, yeah, it's not a mirror. It's not reflective.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Yeah, it's more like it's an adventure.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Was Tris in the original reflective of you at all?
Speaker 3 (12:28):
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
I think Tris did what I could never have imagined doing,
you know, I was. I'm not I'm a very reserved person.
I'm not a particularly brave person. I have a lot
of anxiety, you know, and I am always trying to
be considerate of the people around me, even when I'm
not able to do so. So I think all those
qualities they're not Ris qualities. She's like a little bit
(12:51):
of a like a dream self, you know, like what
if I could do all these things that I'm afraid of?
And I think writing about her doing things made me
feel almost like I was preparing myself to do them.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
She's fun.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
How did you share her bravery which is such a
defining characteristic for her in this new novel When she's
staying at home and I say that in a very
sort of just like colloquial, simplified way.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
She's still brave.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
She still cares about what's right, and I think focusing
on that quality, that commitment to finding some kind of
righteous path forward even if it's difficult, is a quality
that she carries over So that makes her brave even
when she's not choosing dauntless.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Does her choice to stay at home relate to you
more than it did when you were twenty two and
wrote this originally?
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yeah, I think this feeling of loyalty to family is
really what it's about in that moment, Like she doesn't
want to, she doesn't want to avoid difficult things. She
just feels that in that moment her priority is with family,
and I think I relate to that. You know, as
someone whose parents are getting older, it feels more important
than ever to connect with them and make sure that
(14:02):
you make the most of the time you have left.
So I think that part of it felt really relevant
to where I'm at now. Although it was hard to
get back into a sixteen year old headspace, I will
tell you.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I can imagine. But I think also the fans of
the book originally are now in their thirties, so it'll
find a new set of fans. And also I think
these thirty something year olds will be really excited to
connect with a new version of her.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yes, And then I will also note that there are
still people finding these books, and I know that because
they'll they'll send me direct messages on Instagram or wherever.
They'll be like, I'm in the middle of a legion.
I love this series, and I'll be like, oh, no,
good luck.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Well, actually, how do you feel when people write you
if you had such a fraught relationship with the series
for so long.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Well, the part of me that has a fraught relationship
with it is it's not about the readers, and it
never has been. They've always been wonderful, even when they're
yelling at me, you know. I just I love that
anyone connects to my work and that they continue to
connect with it as kind of like a miracle. So
I'm always happy when people reach out. My complex feelings
are more about, like you know, creative work and trying
(15:12):
to grow and all that stuff.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
So it's separate from them.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
So it wasn't about the stories. It was about you
wanting to do something else.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
No, I think it's more about wanting to know that
you can grow as a creative person and people will
let you. So when people keep referring to the work
that you started your career with, I think it's natural
to feel a little complicated about that because you're like, Okay,
but I'm still working and I would love the freedom
to do, you know, the things that I'm excited about
now and not just have to stick with what I
(15:42):
did when I was twenty two for the rest of
my life. So I think that is that's the complicated
part that's a little hard to explain to people Like I.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I get that, yeah, and there's.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Just things that like I wish I'd done better in
the original obviously because it's a fifteen year old work.
So if I wasn't realizing what I would have done
differently than I'm not growing.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
So did you make those corrections, so to speak, in
this new version?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
I did, Yeah, And that was kind of a relief
to do is like popping a pimple or something. It
was like, yes, I can finally, you know, just like
make this sturdier. I feel like the world building for me,
what I most wanted to correct was just to make
everything feel like a better built structure. So maybe readers
(16:24):
will care about it, maybe they won't, but for me
it was a relief.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
How do you feel like you got better at world
building over the last fifteen years? Did you take classes?
Did you read other people's work? How did that happen?
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Well, to get better at writing, there's two things you
need to do, and one is read books, and not
just read them, because you can kind of passively absorb
something without learning from it, but to read it really
thoughtfully and to look at how it's constructed and to
make note of the things that you admire.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
And the other thing is just to practice.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
So the more stories you write, the better you'll get
at the art of writing. So I think just through repetition,
I've gotten better and I know what kind of questions
to ask myself, and I've observed more about the world
around us, so it's easier to like extrapolate it from there.
And you know, time is a useful teacher.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Are there any questions that you could share that you
specifically ask yourself when you write? I think that would
be so helpful to hear.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
This is going to sound silly, but I promise it's
bigger than it sounds. But when Neil Berger, the director
of the first Divergent movie, was trying to plan, he
called me and he asked me how the plumbing works,
and I was like, Neil, I don't know. I actually
don't know how the plumbing works in this city, like
who's doing it?
Speaker 4 (17:42):
Does?
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Where is it?
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Like who's running the water filtration center anyway, So there's
a little bit of a nod to that in the
six Faction. There is an answer to that question, Neil,
if you're listening, and I think.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
It, that's a kind of bigger question.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
So it's more about like who are the people who
are doing the thankless work in this world? And you know,
how do we how do we explore that and at
least have an answer to those questions about like how
the clock ticks basically.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
So I'm glad he asked me that question.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I would have never thought of that, I know it.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
And I was like, what about currency, Neil, stop asking
me things I still don't.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Definitely don't ask me about money.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, Like I didn't build you just there's so many
systems that make the world run, and I think now
that I'm older, I just have encountered more of them.
You know, when I wrote this original book, I hadn't
paid taxes, so it would or rent like because I
was living in a dorm. So it's just you know,
it was a.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Great Probably had a debit card.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
I did.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
I had a debit card with all of one hundred
dollars on it at any given time, which actually was
you know, that can go a long way in column.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Okay. I have a question about the phenomenon of it
all because when we opened our conversation and I call
it a phenomenon, you winced.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I mean, I think this is the Midwest jumping out right.
I'm just like, oh god.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Ugh, I so get it. We have a built in humility. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
I think it's kind of encouraged culturally to be like
as salt of the earth kind of person. And so
when people describe your work as a phenomenon, imagine if
I was like, yeah, it really is, isn't it like
that would feel.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
It would feel an authentic let's put it that way.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Well, I want to ask about it only because you
had sort of this meteoric rise, and not only is
that rare in general, it's rare for authors. I'm so
curious to hear what you felt unprepared for.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
I think just the sheer amount of eyes was shocking.
I just I don't like to be perceived. You know,
I'm an author, so I volunteered to spend years at
a time alone in a room with my own thoughts.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
That's what writing books is, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So to ask someone with that personality to go to
a movie premiere, it's like a Really it's a big ask,
and I tried to rise to the occasion, and I
think I did a pretty good job.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
But I it was just like it was.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
A lot, and I was unmedicated at that time, so
I have rectified that since then.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Did you have like, I cannot believe this is my life,
like a moment where you felt that way? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (20:28):
I had.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
I mean, I had so many of those moments, But
I think the most memorable one is probably stepping on
set for the first time, because I don't know, I
had never you know, I never thought I would see
a movie set and for it to be It was
in Chicago, so we just kind of drove there, me
and my husband, and it felt like walking into my
own brain in the weirdest way possible. Because some parts
(20:49):
of the Divergent movie are very different from what I
thought they would look like, but a lot of them
are very similar, especially the fighting arenas.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
The whole Dauntless compound is very similar.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
So that's where I went the first day, and it
was unreal. It was I mean, I also had like
panic bladder. I was like, Oh, no, where do I
go in this warehouse?
Speaker 1 (21:09):
I cannot imagine what that was like to step onto
a set and you had imagined all of this in
your brain.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah, and they were The Chicago Teamsters Union was hard
on me.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Occasionally. They were like, why did you do this? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Only only in a fun way, but they had to
like reconstruct an L train car, you know, like from scratch.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Speaking of revisiting your work, you did something very few stories.
Do you killed your main character in a first person
death scene. What was the craziest fan theory that you
saw come out of the trilogy.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I think the the craziest one is that Tris was
pregnant when she was killed, And I'm like.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
That's just so dark for no reason. It's already dark.
We don't need to make it darker.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah, but there's also the like, oh, was it all
a dream? You know, it's all a simulation that fan theory.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Is pretty funny.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
I read that one.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
I mean, people should write all the fan pic I
support it.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
You're into it, Yeah, you read through all of it.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
No, I think it's really not it's not my space,
Like it's not for me, but I love that it's happening.
I feel like it's very similar to what I ended
up doing with the six faction. It's just like, yeah,
people take like to take the framework that exists and
play with it. And that's the wonderful thing about fan
fiction is that you get to use someone else's sandbox.
(22:34):
So there's some things that are already developed, so you
don't have to do every piece of work with world building,
but you get to make the characters more flexible and
adjust the world building. And I've seen, I don't know,
I've seen some really amazing stuff come out of fan fiction.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
So it's great.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
If a producer called Tomorrow and said they wanted to
reboot the film series of Divergent, what would you say,
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
I mean, I think movie adaptations, even when they're not
faithful to the source material, are good for authors. So
and a strictly practical business level, it gives you a
reach that you will never get without it, so it's
really hard to say no to it. And I have
experienced that firsthand, so I don't think I would say no,
But you know, you want something good and like interesting
(23:26):
to come out of it, you know, I think i'd
want them to have like a new take. Oh you know,
what do you feel that you didn't get the first
time that you want to do this time?
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I love this quote that I read from you in
an interview with Slate. Divergent was the first time I
really let myself be the writer I actually was, instead
of the one I thought I was supposed to be.
Who did you think you were supposed to be? Well?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
It came from the Creative Writing program at Northwestern University,
which is a very prestigious writing program that I'm super
grateful to have been accepted into, and it taught me
so much. But what it trains you to do is
to be an author or a writer of literary fiction,
which is I mean, I still read literary fiction and
I love it, but it was just not what I
(24:09):
was interested in writing because I'm such a committed science
fiction and fantasy reader and writer, and so I think
I felt like I don't know, I had to write
something I don't know, more lyrical, more poetic, and my
actual style is pretty pared down and straightforward. It's grown
since then, but you know, if you read Divergent, you'll
(24:30):
see it at its peak form.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
It's just like really spare writing.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
And so I think I just when I wrote Diversion,
I kind of freed myself to have that kind of
voice and to like, you know, all the quote unquote
silly genre things that I liked. I've since gone back
to Northwestern to talk to my professors, and I think
it's become more flexible in the years since I attended,
So that's really exciting. I mean, there's ways to do
genre fiction that are still very literary. So I'm glad
(24:55):
that students in the program now are exploring that a
little more. But when I was there, I felt I
think it was self imposed, like, oh I am in
order to be serious, I can't write about these things.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
How would you describe yourself as a writer today?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I think I'm a thoughtful writer. I'm very very concerned
with the emotional, like inner lives of my characters. I
think I'm an emotional writer too, Like the world building
is great, I love it. I love like engaging the
puzzle solving part of my brain, which I think is
what is active when you're building a world. It's like, Okay,
(25:28):
how do all these pieces fit together?
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (25:30):
And how do I answer all of these questions and
make this feel like it a machine that works? So
I like that, but I think for me, it will
always be in service to the emotional lives of the
characters and you know what they're doing moving forward.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
So I have a question about the puzzle piece. So
I've heard you describe your writing as pared down and straightforward,
and I think dystopia is such a huge genre, like
how do you write small inside of a big world?
Speaker 2 (25:58):
I think you have to focus on the intimacy between
the characters. So I think this is done with mixed
success in the Divergent series. In some ways, it got
way too big for me, and because I think when
I was writing it, it had changed so much about
my life that I felt like the story needed to
take up as much space as possible because it took
up so much space for me.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
And that's why in the last book.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
It's so much world building and such big moments and
big character beats, and you know, just as big as
possible in some ways. But what actually works about Allegiance
still is the Tobias Evelyn storyline. So that's an intimate
mother son like growth arc, like the way that they
(26:40):
deal with each other. I feel still emotional about it
when I reread it, and so I look back at
that and think like, ah, if only you had understood
that keeping things small is a way of making them
feel big.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
And you see that with like.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
The Pit, right, Like the Pit takes plays over the
TV show in case anyone is confused about the Pit
at this point, TV show takes place over fifteen hours.
So that's a really small story like it's but because
you care so much about everybody involved in it, like
you don't need you know, big huge swells of music
and like heroic character death in order for the story
(27:16):
to feel important. So I think I've learned that over
the last you know, fifteen years.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
It just seems like it'd be particularly hard to do
in the genre that you write. It's really amazing.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Thanks, Yeah, yeah, I mean you just keep it, keep
it about the people.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
I guess it's the big piece of advice.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Can I ask you what other advice you would share
with young writers who are looking to find their voice.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Well, I think for young writers specifically, they put a
lot of pressure on themselves to finish and I don't know.
My main piece of advice is to focus on school. Sorry, okay, mom, No,
I mean writing should be fun. It should be a release.
It should be it should be playful, it should be mental.
And that's like what's going to carry you through the
(28:02):
rest of your life, Like it's not getting a book done. Like,
if you want to do that, then great, But I
just don't think young people should be putting all this.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Pressure on themselves. This world is already hard enough.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
You just you should teach yourself to have fun with
writing because when hard things happen as a writer, and
they happen to us all, eventually, what carries you through
is the love of the work that you're doing. So
if you can learn that early, then you'll be set.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Do you think that there's a way to tell that
you've found your voice? Does something click for me?
Speaker 2 (28:34):
In the writing program in Northwestern I had to do
nonfiction because everyone does poetry, fiction and creative nonfiction. I
got a piece back that was a nonfiction piece, and
my teacher circled a paragraph in it and she was like,
this is the good writing in the piece.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Huh.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Just pretty straightforward.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
I mean, it was kind of a devastating thing to see,
but she was right, and it was more like the
divergent voice.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
It was just very, very crisp and clear.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
And I started to focus on clarity at that point,
because clarity.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Is hard, really hard.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yes, so I think people underestimate that in writing. But
I think that kind of moment, like, Aha, she's right,
this is the best writing, and what if I could
do that more so I hope. I don't know how
it works for other people. Maybe they have those little
aha moments themselves, but that's how it worked for me.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
That's cool to hear because I love to write, and
I think there's probably a lot of listeners who love
to write, and it's really hard to think about getting
better without a program. So I love hearing that.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
No, you don't need school to become better at writing.
You heard it here first. One of my best writer
friends is Courtney Summers, and she did not I think
she got her ged.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
She finished high school. She's an amazing writer. She's just
a student of the written word.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
What are you so obsessed with right now that you
could write a book about it?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
You know what I am noticing I love is procedurals.
So police procedurals, yes, but medical procedurals. And I'm just like,
clearly you're destined to write a mystery or some kind
of crime solving, like I just it has to happen eventually.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yes, we need a Veronica Rof mystery.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, I dipped a toe before, but I think I
don't know, I'm figuring out. You know, you have to
pay attention to what you're obsessed with as a writer
because it's going to come up eventually.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
So like, besides the pit are you, you're watching SVU?
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Like, what are you?
Speaker 1 (30:38):
What are you obsessing over?
Speaker 4 (30:39):
Well?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
I told a joke online recently that you can tell
where I'm at emotionally by which crime drama I'm currently rewatching.
And I think it was most recently was.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
The Good Wife. And that's a good place to be
for me. The Good Wife is a plus.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Well, first of all, we love the Chicago like you
really stayed true to your roots. I know I do.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
I love my Citias too.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
I love that about you. I interviewed Julianne Marglice, and
I was like, how the hell did you memorize all
those words?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
I mean, first of all, what did you do? I mean,
just looking at her, I'm like, Wow, what a face.
I can't even pay attention.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
She's so special. So when you imagine new teenagers finding
this new version of Divergent, what are you hoping that
they feel and take away from the book.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
I mean, mostly when people read my work, what I
hope is that they're entertained by it, because I mean
that sounds like a small thing, but especially teenagers like
just need a break, you know. That's what I remember
about being an adolescent in general, is that I just
needed like moments of respite. So I hope that it
is primarily a good time, but I hope they feel
(31:48):
seen by it too. I really reflected a lot on
what they're dealing with generationally right now as I was
writing it, and tried to keep it true to what
an actual sixteen year old would do and how they
would act. So I don't know, Yeah, I hope it
resonates with them.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
If I put five million dollars on the table right
now and I said, you can have this if you
go back to being sixteen. Would you do it? No? No,
absolutely me neither. Yeah, being sixteen was so hard.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
It was rough.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Man.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
I had no tools to get through it either.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
You feel so grown up but you don't know anything.
That's a that's a terrible place to be, just delusional.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah, that is the epitome of delulu is being sixteen.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
I know, but there's it's unavoidable there. It's just how
it is to be that age. So God bless them.
I do love teenagers a lot. I miss I miss
doing school visits and talking to them more.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Did you find yourself drawn to anything new while you
were writing this one, because I feel like the genre
requires a slice of reality too, even though it's dystopian fiction.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
I think I was drawn a lot more to the
adult characters and what they're planning, and of course, like
that makes perfect sense because I'm older now and I'm like,
but you know, it always has to.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Be in relation to our young characters.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Otherwise it's not really why a so I try to
keep the focus on them. But I was much more
interested in especially mother figures in the six faction, so
it's not just Tris's mom but other women in the city.
Who are very important and whose you know, whose manipulations
affect her?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Can I ask you why?
Speaker 3 (33:28):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
I think it comes from because it's a much more
of a mother daughter story than the original series. Because
in the original series, her mom, by necessity, has to
like disappear for a lot of it. But in the
new one, you know, she stays in her faction for
a while, so they just have to interact more, and
I think you get to know her a lot better,
And so it kind of comes from that.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Is there anything from the original that returned that? Yeah,
you're smiling.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Yes, I just think people probably be worried. Does she
have a different love interest because she doesn't join Dauntless
you know? But no she doesn't.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Oh wait, that's very exciting to learn.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
Yeah, I just found a different way for them.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Yeah, to a different meat cute.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Oh yeah, do you just wait?
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Is it a meat cute or is it a is
it a meat hopelessness or harps? Say?
Speaker 3 (34:24):
I think it's a meat tense great in a hot way.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
That's exciting. I'm really happy you shared that. Thank you.
I'm hoping and wondering if you're willing to create a
world with me today.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Oh god.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Okay, yeah, sure, we're going to do it together. Okay, okay,
so we're going to write a dystopian novel. What do
you think the time and setting is? What's the world
we're in?
Speaker 3 (34:50):
I mean?
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Okay, so timeline is like my is my the bane
of my existence? Because I don't feel like I understand
how long it takes to do anything.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Okay, I'll do this one. Yes, the time is year
three thousand.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Who's in charge? Who's the regime?
Speaker 3 (35:05):
Well?
Speaker 2 (35:07):
I always start by building a system. So that's like
an educational system, a government, a religion. And I in
college almost majored in religious studies, which is the secular
study of religion at Northwestern. So I feel like we
should have a weird religion have taken over? But what
are they into?
Speaker 1 (35:25):
What are they into? They are into hot tubbing.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Hot dubbing okay, yeah, pro hot tubbing.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
So have they then settled on all of the hot
springs of the planet, Yes, for energy conservation purposes.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
And what is the central rule that they must obey?
Speaker 3 (35:45):
No peeing in the hot tub? So it's really important
self monitoring behavior. Yes, shower before you.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Know, yeah, and if you pee it turns bright purple.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
Yeah, everyone knows.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Public shaming.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Yes, public shaming is a big part of the hot
tubbing people's lifestyle.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Oh God, who is our main character? Who are we following?
Speaker 2 (36:09):
I think we need someone who for some reason cannot
or does not want to engage with the hot tubbing.
So maybe they're like they melt, yeah, or they're like
allergic to water. They can't fit in you know, right,
can't participate in the religion of the hot tubbists.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, the hot tub hotties. How old are they?
Speaker 2 (36:30):
I mean sixteen? This is the prime hot tubbing time.
That's the most hot tumming.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
I ever did was when I was sixteen, especially in.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Chicago, you know, with the snow falling, Like someone has
a cabin somewhere, that's the dream.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
What's the moment that cracks their world open? What's our
inciting incident?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Well, it's gotta be some kind of conspiracy. Yeah, So
what's a hot dub conspiracy. Maybe it's been uh, they've
been exaggerating the health benefits of the hot tub that's great. Yeah,
and this character thinks that's bullsh and goes on a
quest to discover the truth, which is that there's no
health benefits and in fact, you know they're bacteria assessments.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Right, and they discovered a lie. What is our emotional core?
What is this story really all about?
Speaker 2 (37:13):
It feels like it's about fitting in, right, Yeah, belonging, belonging?
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Where do I belong? The central question of YA in general?
Speaker 1 (37:21):
What's the climax? What's our final showdown?
Speaker 2 (37:23):
I think it's you got to like unplug all the
hot tubs or something like force people to live without them.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Woe freaks out.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Yeah, it's like that.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Which season of Mister Robot did they like end the
internet basically? Or oh they ended like currency?
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Yeah that was Y two K where we ended the Internet?
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Remember?
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Yeah, my gosh, we're so worried.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
It's so much bottled water in my basement?
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Did you man?
Speaker 2 (37:46):
I don't even remember. I don't think I did anything.
I was like, I'm just gonna lay down and see
what happens.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Okay, what's our ending? Are we hopeful? Are we bittersweet?
Does the revolution succeed?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I think you need a hopeful ending. You don't need it,
but I like a hopeful ending. I've already done my
dark endings. I think I was gonna.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Say I've had my phil Do we have a sequel? Hook?
What is the lingering threat that makes readers desperate for
book two? You know what?
Speaker 2 (38:12):
I want to see a love triangle. I know it's controversial,
but I miss them. I want them back, Team Edward,
team Jacob, give it to me. I love it, Yeah,
because we're better than in a hot tub exactly. And
I feel like it's always a choice between identity, you know,
So it's like who do I want to be? Do
I want to be a rebel hot tub person? Or
do I want to maybe like investigate the status quo?
(38:34):
So like maybe there's dream hot tub guy. This is
getting sillier the more I think about it.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
First of all, I ruined it by calling out the
hot tub people. But Veronica, thank you, thank you for
joining us. You've been so fun.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Okay friends. Before we wrap today's episode, I'm bringing back
our monthly comfort segment from Cotton, called the Book Nook.
This is where we explore the rituals that make reading
feel just right. And with spring officially here, it feels
like the perfect time to talk about those fresh air
(39:13):
reading moments, the ones where you can finally take your
book outside and soak it all in. As you know,
cotton is at the heart of so many of those
everyday comforts, whether it's your softest worn in tea, a
breathable sun dress, or a lightweight blanket you can stretch
out in the grass. Cotton helps keep us cool, comfortable,
and grounded, which makes it the perfect companion for a
(39:34):
good book. Let's hear from another Bookmarked listener sharing their
ideal reading setup.
Speaker 4 (39:40):
Hi, Bookmark ty Danielle. This is Maddie calling in from Cleveland, Ohio.
My favorite reading setup is a little seasonal, but I
love going over to my parents' house and they live
in a more real part of Ohio, and they have
(40:04):
a huge backyard garden, and I love in like the
early spring, early summer before it gets too hot, laying
out on a big blanket on the grass next to
the garden and reading. I love feeling the sun on
my face as I finish a new chapter. I love
(40:26):
hearing all of the tiny little sounds of nature around me.
And I love when what's going on around me and
what's going on in the page sort of blend and
blur together, so it's I have a lot of memories
of finishing a book or finishing a chapter. With all
(40:50):
of that happening, it makes it feel really visceral, which
totally makes sense, because the best kind of writing off
the page and really transports you.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Mattie, this is so beautiful that early spring light, the
quiet helm of a garden waking up, and a blanket
stretched out under you. It's the kind of setting that
turns reading into a full sensory experience. I love how
you describe the blur between the world around you and
the story in your hands. That's exactly the magic we're
all chasing, isn't it. And there's something so special about
(41:30):
those in between seasons, when the air is soft, the
sun isn't too strong, and you can settle in comfortably,
maybe in your favorite cotton tea, and just get lost
in a book. It feels like a reset in the
very best way. So friends, keep your ideal reading setups coming.
What are you wearing? What's around you? Are you stretched
out in the sunshine, curled up by an open window,
(41:52):
under a cotton throw or your coziest layers? Take me
right into your perfect reading ritual. Leave me a voicemail
at five zearo O one two night one three three
seven nine, or email me a voice memo to Bookmark
at Reese's book Club dot com. Thanks to Cotton for
bringing this segment to life and reminding us that comfort
and style can go hand in hand. Don't forget to
(42:13):
check the tag for Cotton, and if you want to
learn more, head to the fabric of OurLives dot com.
That's it for this episode of Bookmarked by Reese's book Club.
Our phone line is now open, so if you want
to go nineties on us, give us a call at
(42:34):
one five zero one two nine to one three three
seven nine. That's one five zero one two nine to
one three three seven nine. Share your literary hot takes,
your book recommendations, questions about the monthly pick, or let
us know what you think about the episode you just heard,
and who knows, you might just hear yourself in our
(42:56):
next episode, so don't overthink it. Give us a ring,
and if you want more, come hang with us. Reese's
book Club is on Instagram, serving up books, good vibes,
and all the behind the scenes stuff you love. And
I'm at Danielle robe ro ba y, so come say
hi and please seriously DM me because I actually read them,
and I love hearing what you think about the episodes,
(43:18):
and don't forget to follow. Bookmarked by Reese's book Club
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.
We'll see you in the next chapter. Bookmarked is a
production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts, Executive produced by
Reese Witherspoon and me Danielle Robe, production by Acast Creative Studios.
Our producers are Matty Foley, Brittany Martinez, and Sarah Schleid.
(43:41):
Our editor is Carmen Borca Carrillo. Our production assistant is
Avery Loftis. Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder are executive producers
for a Cast Creative Studios. Maureene Polo and Reese Witherspoon
are executive producers for Hello Sunshine. Olga Cominwa, Kristin Perla,
Ashley Rappaport and Sarah Kernerman are associate producers for Reese's
(44:01):
book Club, and Ali Perry is executive producer for iHeart Podcasts.
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