March 10, 2026 • 62 mins
This week is a big one. For the first time ever, three romance royals sit down together: Beverly Jenkins, Tia Williams, and Kennedy Ryan. They talk about pioneering Black love stories when the industry didn’t make space for them, reshaping modern romance with depth and desire, and why a happily ever after is anything but predictable — it’s powerful. From writing Black female desire without apology to protecting your creative vision, this conversation is funny, honest, and deeply moving.
BOOKS MENTIONED:
Night Song by Beverly Jenkins
Iola Leroy by Frances Ellen Watkins Harper
Frances Harper: Poems, Prose, and Sketches – This collection features “Bury Me in a Free Land”. by Frances Ellen Watkins Harper
Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov
Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy
The Devil Wears Prada by Lauren Weisberger
The Perfect Find by Tia Williams
Can't Get Enough by Kennedy Ryan
Before I Let Go by Kennedy Ryan
Seven Days in June by Tia Williams
Through the Storm by Beverly Jenkins
Heated Rivalry by Rachel Reid
Hazard and Somerset by Gregory Ashe
Ghalen by Walter Mosely
Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club is presented by Apple Books. Hi,
I'm Danielle Robe and this is Bookmarked by Reese's book Club.
This week feels significant. Let me tell you why. For
the first time ever, generations of romance writers Beverly Jenkins,
Tia Williams, and Kennedy Ryan are in an interview together Romance.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
One of the things that drew me to it is
how opposite.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Of my worldview it is. It's like lithium literary lithium.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
Lolita is not a romance. Neither is Anna Karenina. No,
you've got a woman who throws herself under a train
because of a can I say, boy, Yeah, we.
Speaker 5 (00:47):
Are glad that you said it.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
And if you read romance, you know that this is
a big deal. And if you aren't a romance girly yet,
let me tell you this is a big deal. So
here's the rundown. Ever, really, Jenkins has been publishing since
the nineteen nineties, long before algorithms in book talk and
before romance was a billion dollar business. Right she helped
pioneer black historical romance when the industry wasn't exactly asking
(01:13):
for it. She writes these sweeping meticulously researched love stories
where black women are desired and complex and undeniably the
heroine for so many readers and writers. Beverly didn't just
publish books. She widened the doorway, and then Tia Williams
walked through it, and in her very teaway she redesigned
(01:36):
the house. One of my favorite romance books ever is
Hers Seven Days in June, And if you read that
or her novel A Love Song for Ricky Wilde, you
know that Tia can wreck us emotionally in the most
exquisite way. And before she was even a novelist, Tia
was shaping culture as a beauty editor at l Essence
(01:58):
and Glamour. No matter her medium, Tia knows how to
tell a story. And then there is Kennedy. Ryan Kennedy
builds outward. She's built a global community around romance that
does not look away from real life. Her books are
sweeping and sensual, yes, and they also confront disability, addiction,
(02:18):
reproductive rights, systemic injustice. Kennedy insists that love stories can
hold both heat and humanity. There's a few things I
deeply loved about this conversation. It wasn't just the laughter
or the banter between the three of them. It was
so cool to hear about and witness in real time
(02:38):
what a difference a generation makes. When Beverly started out,
romance novels were read in private and kind of pass
hand to hand under the table. And now Kennedy and
Tia are superstar novelists whose books get passed around like
a viral meme. So if you believe in the power
of love stories, if you've ever needed permission to take
up space on the page, or if there's just a
(03:00):
story in your heart waiting to be written, you're in
the right place. Let's turn the page with Beverly Jenkins,
Tia Williams, and Kennedy Ryan. Welcome to the club, Tia, Kennedy, Beverly,
this is so exciting.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
So thrilled to be here. Thank you for having us.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
Oh yeah, glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Is this the first time you've all been together in
one room?
Speaker 5 (03:28):
I think so, the three of us together never So
I need my screenshot before this is all over.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
Yeah, these are two of my favorite girls.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Well, I feel like I'm in the presence of romance
Royalty right now. You have given us friends to lovers,
second chances, enemies to lovers, slow burns that I think
nearly killed us the whole spectrum of falling in love.
So I'm gonna be honest with you all. I'm determined
(03:58):
to meet a man this year.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
Girl naming and claimingfication. Make sure it's a good one though.
You know there's a bunch of frogs out there right.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Well, I need the experts and with your deep knowledge
of what makes a relationship actually thrive. So what is
the best relationship wisdom that you have gained through writing
your love stories? Beverly, you are the pioneer of this
modern genre. Will you do the honors of going first
for me?
Speaker 4 (04:28):
I mean, whether it's writing books or whether it's real
love us hard work, you know. And I had my
husband for thirty years before you know, I lost him
a cancer. But there were days when I wanted to
bury him in the backyard. And I've said it before
and as the days he wanted to bury me in
the backyard. So love is hard work. So that's my.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Take, Well said and real thank you, Beverly, Tia.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
What do you think you know?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
It's funny you say you want to find a man
this year. You can find a man outside right now.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
You could go to the bodeque. They're everywhere. But the
thing is, it's the right man.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
And I feel like the right man for an evolved
woman is an evolved man. And you know, I always
say that in my books all the men have gone
to therapy. While that's not you know, it's harder to
find in real life. I think having intellectual curiosity and
emotional curiosity and a willingness to sort of unpack his layers,
(05:29):
I think that makes a great partner, assuming that you,
as a woman, have also done the work too. I
feel like we get into problems with guys when they
show up like halfway realized, like they have. They don't
really know why they do the things that they do,
and if they haven't done that work, it's hard for
them to like show up with any grace and authenticity.
(05:52):
For us, that was so much weaponized therapy talk.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I'm so embarrassed, Tiya, you're speaking to my So that's
what I run into, Kennedy, what do you think?
Speaker 5 (06:04):
Yeah, I think it kind of builds off of both
of those answers in that I'm looking for I have.
I have been married to the same man for almost
thirty years. So we got together young and we've grown together,
and I think he's a therapized man. You know, he
wasn't always neither one of us were. But it goes
(06:25):
back to what Miss Bev was saying about, like doing
the work. And I think that one thing that has
been So we've been through a lot, you know, even
when I write, I talk about people like why do
you write the hard stuff? And I'm like, really, I
think that love shines brightest when it's tested, you know,
and being with someone who you can walk through hard
things with, and that it's somebody who is secure enough
(06:46):
to support you no matter what, and you feel the same.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
What I'm hearing from you is a deep commitment, like
a not giving up regardless of the circumstance. Yeah, that's beautiful, Beverly.
You've been publishing romance for over thirty years. Jesus, you
survived fabio covers, you survived the mass market paperback era,
(07:10):
you survived the kindle revolution, and now you're surviving book talk. Okay,
So what was your oh this is it moment back
in nineteen ninety four, when did you know I'm not
just writing books, I'm shifting culture A.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Lot of things black women had been reading romance forever,
even when there was nothing in the market for us.
And the stories that I received, you know, on tour
and you know, at my pajama party and stuff about
how they reacted let me know that, you know, we
(07:44):
sort of put a shift in the world. One woman
told me that when she picked up she saw a
Night Song, which was the first book she picked it up,
she was freaked out by the cover two black people
on a romance, she said. The first thing she did
was open it up to the back to see who
had written it, she said, And when I saw it
was a black woman, she said, I sat on the
(08:05):
floor in the bookstore right there and started reading. Oh wow.
So I got a lot of stories like that, And
then I got when Indigo was published, a letter from
Dangerfield Nuby's descendants. And Dangerfield Nuby was one of the
black men who was killed with John Brown during the
(08:26):
the rated Harper's Ferry, and they were writing me to
let me know that they were so proud that I
was highlighting their ancestor and his contribution. And I was like, WHOA,
this is wild. I was, you know, I was so
moved and so just to love and respect. And you know,
(08:49):
I don't know purpose that the book served over these
thirty years. So I'm so grateful to the readers. I
don't know what to do. And these young ladies here too.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
It's not often, especially nowadays, that anyone or I have
the opportunity to speak to somebody who pioneered an industry,
and so to hear your perspective is personally just so
exciting to me but also so valuable. And I see
Tia and Kennedy as you're speaking. I can tell both
(09:21):
of you are so moved by Beverly's words. Can I
just ask you, like what you were feeling as she
was sharing.
Speaker 5 (09:27):
That every time I am with Miss Bev, I feel
incredibly moved. This is this is like now, it's like
legend for me, lore for me that the first time
I met Miss Bev was at Essence Fest maybe two or.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
Three years ago.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
But when I came face to face with Miss Bev,
I literally, Miss Bev, is this that true? Sobbing?
Speaker 4 (09:55):
It was an ugly cry It was a cry job.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
You know, and I couldn't control it. I didn't know
what was gonna happen, but I just felt like I
am standing in the presence of greatness, you know, I
felt like I am standing in front of somebody who
every time I talk about it, I get emotional. But
I just felt like I'm on this woman's shoulders, you know,
And like I am a lifelong romance reader. I started
(10:22):
reading romance in the eighth grade, which was a long
time ago, and I remember how overwhelmingly white it was,
you know, even in people who would inspire me as
a writer. And then to come back to romance later
and to see somebody like miss Bev, who I always
say it didn't exist. There was no blueprint for it,
there was no roadmap for it, and she made it
(10:44):
out of nothing, you know. And so to be in
that tradition, you know, of black romance and of romance
writing as a black woman, it's incredibly moving. Like I cry,
just every time I'm with her, I cry. I mean,
I also could be paramid a pause, but like.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
You and I have to bring up too though, that
I'm standing on shoulders, you know. I'm standing on Sandra
Kit's shoulders. I'm standing on Roslynd Wells shoulders. I'm standing
on Francis Ellen Watkins Harper. Nineteenth century abolitionists womanist, one
of the first women to ever do a whole lot
of stuff, and she wrote the very first African American romance,
(11:28):
Iola LeRoi in eighteen ninety two, she was seventy years old,
to go with her the most iconic poem in abolition,
Bury Me in a Free Land. So we are all
standing on shoulders, and I would be remiss to say
that I invented anything because I didn't.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Spoken like a true pioneer. Beverly Tia, do you remember
the first time you read a Beverly Jenkins book? Was
it a I see myself? Was it, Oh, this is
what's possible? Was it this is what I need to do?
(12:14):
What did you feel?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
So when Miss bev was telling the story about the
woman who sat down in the bookstore, that was me?
Speaker 3 (12:20):
I mean was that was not me? But that was
my reaction with nights on Wow.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
I've been a romance reader since I was nine years old,
stealing my mom's historical romances.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And you know, yes, we.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
All stand on shoulders, but in my lifetime they're just
it just didn't exist. And so I grew up with
the Jude Devereaus and the Woodow Whisses, and I loved them,
and I would recast all the characters as black people.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
In my mind. And I knew at a young age.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
That I was going to grow up and write those
kinds of books but starring us, because having to picture
yourself as the black version of something is whack. And
then so reading Night Song, just seeing the cover took
me clean out because I'm still coming from a place
and I think culturally where we're all still coming from
a place where do we even want.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
To read historical fiction starring us? Like what was really happening?
Speaker 4 (13:20):
You know?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
And I know that Miss Bev opened my mind up
to a world in which we had humanity, and we
had love, and we had all of the feelings and
the passions and the emotions that we have now then,
So yeah, it was like seeing myself for the first time.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
First of all, thank you for sharing that, Tiya, And
per usual, you bring up an even larger point I think,
which is that historical romance can sometimes romanticize the past.
And when I watch Bridgerton, I want to fall in
love with a castle and wear ball gowns. But a
lot of the stories that take place in a past
(13:59):
era where shaped by racial violence. I'm curious Beverly, How
did you thread the needle of depicting a beautiful love
story without softening the reality of the era that it's
shaped by.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
By keeping the story focused on the couple, you know,
because it's a romance. And yes, you have Jim Crow,
and yes you have you know, the Red Summer nineteen nineteen,
and you've got Tulsa and you have the Luncheons. But
our people survived that with fearlessness and cleverness and love.
(14:33):
So I focused that my story is on that relationship
and the rest of it is in the background. Because
even with like I said, even with all of the
crap that we've had to put up with as black
people in America, we still loved. We still had marriages,
our men still courted us, we still built colleges, you know,
(14:53):
so that tradition of all of the things that we face,
and we still loved.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
I was lucky enough to interviewed Tia a year or
two ago, and I learned that she sort of had
this past life before she became a novelist. She was
a beauty editor at a very prominent magazine. Tia, your
law runs so deep.
Speaker 5 (15:15):
It's pretty deep.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
I have some stories, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
I actually don't know if Beverly or Kennedy had a
past life either. Were you guys full time writers always
or did you also have a past life?
Speaker 5 (15:27):
Oh gosh, I definitely have a past life. My background
is journalism. And when my son was diagnosed with autism
when he was two, maybe within the next like two years,
I started a foundation for families with children with autism
and I ran that for eleven years. I have still
an auction that raises a lot of money for autism,
like that's connected to the book community. So autism advocacy,
(15:51):
special needs parenting, like that's something that is such a
huge part of my life and my life purpose. So
that's a big part of my life. Before I started publishing,
you know, I thought I was going to be, you know,
reporting from a war torn country, and now I'm writing,
you know, meet cutes.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
So I had no intention of being a writer. All
I ever wanted to do was work in a library,
and life gave me that. And the next thing, I know,
you know, life sometimes or the Lord of the universe
hands and stuff and says here where this hat. And
I was like, oh okay, one of my colleagues had
just gotten published and I told her about this little
(16:30):
raggedy manuscript that I was working on just for me.
Because this was like nineteen eighty five. There was no
mass market for us in romance or anything else back then,
very limited. She wanted to see it, and so I
brought it in and she said, you need to get
this published. And I'm like, where, how? With who? And
some kind of way, I found Vivian Stevens, who basically
(16:53):
invented American romance. She's the first black editor at Harlequin.
She started Silhouette. So all of that anyway, I sent
my little raggedy manuscript to her to shut Laverna up
my friend at work. She called me at the desk
less than a week later and said she wanted to
represent me.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
I think I should say that when I was growing up,
I had two dreams, and it was to be a
magazine editor, live in New York and do that whole thing,
but also to write fiction and to be a romance novelist.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
I always knew that, and.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
I moved to Brooklyn and I started as an editorial
assistant y a magazine. I was like, okay, so that dream, okay,
I can you know, check that off the list. But
now I have to write my novel. But I realized
that I didn't really have any exciting experience. I sat
down to write, and I was like, what am I
writing about? I went to college, I just graduated, and
(17:52):
now I'm doing like I hadn't really had like any
big boyfriends or any like, how am I going to
write about sex?
Speaker 3 (17:58):
What am I doing? I mean, I wasn't a virgin,
but like it was early.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Just to be clear, you're clear, I mean I was
out there, but I wasn't out there, so I wanted
to get some experience. So like fast forward four years later,
I met Glamour. I'm the first black beauty editor at Glamor. Okay,
and this was a big deal. And I was dating
a very charismatic psycho and which is what you do
(18:24):
at twenty five And this is like Devilwar's Prada magazine era.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
You know.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
I had an editor throw a bagel at my head. Okay,
Like oh wow, it was wild, and I was like,
you know what, it's a no for me.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
So I broke up with the guy, put all my
stuff in storage, quit the job at Glamour, which was
a big deal because I was the first and the
only in the room, but I felt like I was
slipping away. So in a move of self preservation, I
went to Seville, Spain for six months to teach Spanish
to third graders. And while I was there, I the
(19:00):
story of my psycho romance. But I wrote it in
my favor and made him fabulous and gave it a
happy ending. And when I got back to New York
and you know, went back to my magazine job, I
realized that that was my first book.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
I wrote it.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
That was the Eccidental Diva in two thousand and four.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
First of all, Tia, thank you for chiming in and
sharing the larger story, because I would have been so
sad if we didn't hear that. But also, I actually
I'm really curious how you guys feel about happy endings.
Do you think that a romance book requires one?
Speaker 5 (19:35):
Yes, I mean the genre, the definition by definition, in
the genre, a romance requires a happily ever after, or
it's not a romance. That's something for some reason. It's
like hotly debated now, like you can have a love
story with a tragic ending, but you can't have a romance.
And I know people are gonna be like what some
(19:56):
people still, but like a romance novel, by definition of
the genre, has a happily ever after.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
It's either a HIA or a hf N, which is
happy for now, which is most ya. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Now, do you all think that you were optimistic by
nature and so you were drawn to romance or has
the genre made you really believe in the hia the
happily ever after?
Speaker 3 (20:23):
I'm not optimistic at all.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
That's why his favorite genre is like horror, okay, And.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
I'm a big fantasy reader, so gotta have dragons.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, I mean, I prefer when everyone dies.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
At the end.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
But romance, one of the things that drew me to
it is how opposite.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Of my worldview it is. It's like lithium.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Well, literary is not a romance. Neither is Anna Karenina
throws herself under a train because of a can I say, boy.
Speaker 5 (21:03):
We are glad that you said.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
A lot of times you know blue, But that is
not a romance.
Speaker 5 (21:11):
I think the thing I love most about romance is that, like,
I write about some really difficult things, you know, like
and I enjoy that, and people are like, oh, why
do you write trauma? I'm like, we're not writing Trauma's
just life. And a lot of our white counterparts get
to write deeply emotional stories that really excavate the human experience,
(21:33):
and that's what they call it is it's deeply emotional,
excavating the human experience. But when we write it, it's like, oh,
that's it's trauma just because we as black women are
writing it. And I never write the hurt without the healing.
But I think that the thing I love about romance
is it is the safest genre landscape to unpack those
big emotions and those huge, deeply evocative human experiences. And
(21:57):
the reason I say it's safe is because we have
guaranteed joy at the end. So it's like, yes, I
am talking about something that's really deep, I'm talking about
something that's really possibly hurtful, but there is a path
to healing and there's a path to joy, and we
are the only genre that guarantees that. And so when
people talk about the predictability of the happily ever after,
(22:17):
like it's so predictable, the human experience is not predictable.
Like the journey that we are taking to become who
we become a part and together is not predictable. The
only thing that is safe is that you will get
joy in the end. And so that's my approach to romance.
You know, Kennedy Deacon, Kennedy girl.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
When you talk, it's like, listen, we're in church.
Speaker 5 (22:39):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
It's so true, it's so good.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
All of you write multi layered characters with agency and desirability.
What does it mean to write black female desire without
a apology?
Speaker 4 (23:00):
Freedom? It's revolutionary, it's radical. We look back through our history,
Dorothy Sterling says, the black women in the nineteenth century
had three gifts. We worked whether we were enslaved or free.
We had a commitment to social activism and cultural activism,
and we pushed the envelope on gender and race. We
(23:22):
are still practicing those gifts today because we have no choice.
So we are still doing all of those gifts. And
you put those with the women that we write, and
you got a complete character there.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Tia.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
At the beginning of this conversation, you were talking about
how you had to put yourself into these white characters, which,
to quote you felt whack. I agree. When you think
about readers who see themselves represented for the first time
in your books, what are you hoping that they internalize
about their own desirability and self worth.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
I really just I want, through my characters for women
and whoever to feel possibility and to see what can be.
I mean, I always say that I write for Black
women first and anyone else who comes to it. You know,
I love that, but it's really a gift for black women.
(24:25):
I want everything to be larger than life. I want everything,
every emotion to be big. I want the dialogue to
really sparkle. I want even if they're in a Starbucks,
I want it to be the most dazzling experience in
a Starbucks. I want it to be an escapist, fantasy gift.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
And through that escape.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
I want women to learn about what they like or
what they want, or what they can reach.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
For or even in the careers that.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
I give my main characters, Because like I said, I
was really into Judah Krantz and Jackie Collins and Daniel Steele,
these women in their in their books. You know, they
were art galleries, they were model agents, and you just
never saw black women, you know, in those jobs. And
also in a lot of our you know gen X
and boomer homes.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
We were taught if you're going to be anything.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
You need to be a lawyer or a doctor and
get us out of here, you know, And and the.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Artistic professions weren't really encouraged.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
So all of my main female characters are artists in
some regard. Most of the men are too, because I
want my readers to see that possibility as well, and
see a way to, you know, a way forward doing
something they really love.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
And not something they're you know, cornered or pushed into.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Well said, I love how you said that you write
for black women? And then whoever else? Kennedy and Beverly,
who do you write for me?
Speaker 4 (25:56):
Basically because Tony Morrison say, if there's a story out
there that is not being told and you want to
read it, then you need to write it. And I
grew up in the fifties. There are no books in
the you know, and I read everything in my neighborhood library.
There's nothing on the page for me. So when I
was writing Ninth Song after work, I was writing a
love story for myself.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Kennedy, how about you?
Speaker 5 (26:20):
Yeah, I think I write first for black women. I
do have. I have an indigenous main character. I have
a first generation Mexican American main character. I have an amputee.
I have a lot of the experiences that I am
writing are identities, communities, experiences that have been peripheralized, and
(26:42):
in my work, I want to bring them to the center,
you know, Like I'm constantly thinking about what is the
experience that we haven't seen at the center of narrative,
where those women haven't been told that they are worthy
of a happily ever after, that they are worthy about
pages and unconditional love. And when I'm writing, there's a
specific person in mind. So when I wrote this last book,
(27:04):
I'm thinking about women, specifically Black women who have bipolar
disorder in this country, and what does that experience look like,
and what does it look like when you're navigating something
that lifelong and difficult to have a partner come alongside
you and stand unconditionally and stand no matter what you know.
So that's constantly like the ethos of what I'm doing
(27:25):
in Romance Kennedy.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
When I read your books, I feel as if I'm
getting a story I haven't read before, And I think
the identity aspect is part of it, because you are
calling people in and it doesn't feel like a peripheral
part of the story. It is the story, which is
so cool. I think each of you have found such
a unique approach to stories of romance. And I'm curious,
(27:51):
from like a writing perspective, when you are pitching to agents,
how are you able to carve out a genre that
could feel in credit, be crowded and then get all
these people to be on board, because that seems like
a whole nother layer. And Kennedy, you are breathing heavy.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
You took it.
Speaker 5 (28:11):
You took a breath. When I said that, I think
it was the word pitch to agents.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
I was like, am I doing scary phrase? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I really wrote historical romance during a time that was
like really a time period that's overlooked in black history.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
Yeah, everywhere.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Tia, I think you blend sexy with serious in a
way that it feels like I'm reading somebody's diary, you know.
And Kennedy, you always touch on these social issues. You
each have such a path that you've carved out.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Well, I can say that, you know, and we don't
have to pitch to agents anymore. But you know, back
in the day, it was extremely hard because I came
along during this time that was like posts the nineties,
Black contemporary commercial fiction craze. Unfortunately, it ended up being
(29:13):
a trend, and honestly, I really do think the only
reason that my first novel was published is because it
was right on the heels of a lot of magazine
editor you know, Sex and the City type fiction, Devil
wors Prada, you know plum Sykes that Vogue wrote, wrote one.
You know, all the Vogue editors wrote fiction. Cannice Bushnell
(29:36):
was out here doing the lord's work, and mine was
a black one.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
And I heard that all the time.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
I mean, they even put a letto on the cover
with a very light skin foot to.
Speaker 5 (29:48):
Everyone as coble as possible. I will never forget my
skin foot.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Listen.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
The cover model, which I had no you know, control over,
was the light skin Puerto Rican you can imagine, which
would be great if my character was an extremely light
skinned perto Rican.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
But she was a black woman from Virginia like myself.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Oh man, anyway, But yeah, so you know I've come
up against and when I was selling The Perfect Find
in twenty fifteen, a year before, things changed quite drastically,
and you know, publishers were wanting diverse voices and wanting
to expand their lists beyond you know, white men and
(30:31):
then white women. It was extremely tough because it was
a novel about a fashion editor, and I had very
prominent editors would say things to me like, oh, well,
I don't think it's very believable that a black woman
would be a fashion editor on that level, or can
we change the industry from fashion to something that's more
(30:52):
believable for a black character, to which you know, it
was a no, no, no, I'm not going to change it.
And you have to stick to your And I think
back to your question of you know, how do you
pitch something that doesn't feel believable or doesn't feel real,
or you know, sort of pushing a genre that doesn't
quite exist yet.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
You just have to.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Have tremendous balls and stick to your guns if you
know that what you have is good, and if you
know that what you have is real.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Beverly, I'm so curious what it was like for you
when you started publishing.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
It was interesting and you know she's talking about you know,
them not knowing anything about who we are. That was
part of the reason why I got so many rejection letters.
They didn't have a box for it. Publishing and America
in general, when you have a nineteenth century story with
(31:49):
black people, it's supposed to be about slavery, right, So
here I come with a love story starring an Oberlin
educated school team a black buffalo soldier in an all
black town after the Great Exodus of eighteen seventy nine
on the plains of Kansas. None of that made sense
(32:12):
to anybody because the letters were like, great writing, but
great writing, but great writing. Butte and the Butt had
to do with what the hell we're supposed to do
with this. I was blessed that Ellen Edwards, who was
the executive editor at a Mine at the time, saw
the potential in the story. But you know, it was
(32:34):
a first book. You don't know what the hell you're
doing with your first book. She said, Beverly, I love
your writing, I love the love scenes, but we need
a story. I had like eight hundred pages of heat.
I mean, you need to ask Bestel's gloves to hold
on to that. And I was like, I gotta write
(32:57):
a story. It's just like, yeah, you gotta write a story.
So it didn't make sense, like I said, too, to
put all of that against a white majority background. So
I went in and did the history a little bit deeper,
because I doubt it would have been published the way it.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Was, beautifully, said Beverly Kennedy. I watched in an interview
in your latest book, Can't Get Enough, you said it's
the intersection of swoon and social commentary. And I am
so curious about your relationship with book talk. You're so
popular on there. How much do you take into account
what your fans ask for when it comes to the
(33:40):
stories you're telling.
Speaker 5 (33:41):
I don't, I don't, I don't. I don't you know, I,
like I said, like, I figure out what matters to
me right now, And I'm real, do you know about
the creative process in the sense that I feel like
I'm going to tune in and I'm going to kind
(34:03):
of dial inside and figure out what am I supposed
to be writing right now? Like when I wrote before
I Let Go, I was wrestling with my own depression
and I wrote about depression, and I wrote about therapy
and I wrote about black men getting into therapy and
healing and all of that. It was like, this is
I don't think of myself as just releasing books. And
(34:24):
this sounds so elevated, like, oh my god, you think
you're so important? But I think of myself as not
just releasing a book, but deploying a book, Like I'm
sending this book on a mission. And for me, the
mission with each book is different. And with that book
was all about mental health. It was all about therapy.
It was all about depression, destigmatizing getting help for that,
specifically in the right right. So for me, when I
(34:48):
released that, that's what I'm supposed to be writing, and
I write it when I hear from people like, oh
my gosh, I just handed that book to my husband
who refused to go to therapy. Oh my gosh. I
called my insurance company to see if they will c
you know, my therapy. Oh my gosh. I was recovering
from this, and then I read your book, Like, for me,
that is the first metric of success, and the more
(35:09):
successful you become, the harder it is to stay close
to that. Like then you're like, oh, did I list
and did I sell? And did I do this? So
I'm constantly reminding myself that my first metric for success
is that I achieved what when I dialed into that
voice inside I said was the mission for this book.
When I see it played out in my interactions with
(35:29):
my readers. That for me is the first metric of success.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Kennedy, you were speaking to my soul.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
But you know, that's why romance is so important, because that's.
Speaker 5 (35:40):
What we do.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Yes, you're right, bever That's what we do.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
We connect, you know, we change lives. You go to
signings and people say, well, my mom's in dialysis. Will
you talk to her please?
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (35:51):
I'm like sure. This past summer wanted me to talk
to his great grandmother. She's one hundred and four years old.
She loves my books. I was like, I will zone
with her. So I zoned with this one hundred and
four year old lady and she loved the Blessing series
and her best character was Cleat as Dog. So I
(36:14):
think it's why romance is so important, because of what
we do for our readers' lives and their hearts and
their mental health, and their relationship with other family members
in the world and with themselves.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
I love Beverly. You know you made me kind of wonder,
what's the farthest you've gone with a fan interaction.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
I have a pajama party for two years with my readers.
I don't do it anymore. And then Brenda Jackson has
a cruise and she's got like thousands of people on
this boat, including her pastor.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Kennedy, I saw you nodding. I think you have one.
Speaker 5 (36:52):
Yeah, I have a lot. I mean, my therapist is
constantly telling me to get off social media. She's constantly like,
get off because sometimes it's a lot, you know. But
I love the interaction with my readers and like they're
obviously at this stage, you can't be close to all
your readers, you know, but there's a core of readers
(37:13):
who I interact with on a very consistent basis and
we go pretty deep. Like they know I'm a PK
like Creature's kid, Pastor's kid. You know, my parents are pastors,
so they know that my faith is a big part
of my life. I have readers who are like mss Kennedy.
You know, they come in my dms and they're like,
I got a job interview tomorrow. Will you pray for me?
Like I have, Like it is a whole kind of
(37:37):
like ongoing thing, and it's not just like will you
pray for me? But they'll come in and you know,
ask for advice, and you know they'll come on, I
got a tattoo, you know, based on your book, you know,
and I'm like, oh, that's so cool, you know, so
you know, I it's to me. It's fueling, you.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
Know, it's very fueling.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
You know you've impacted someone when they put a tattoo
in inspired by one of your characters or something like
their world has entered yours at that point.
Speaker 5 (38:05):
Yeah, there's nothing like that, Tia, tell.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Me about yours, because your books really dig deep, like
I think you play at the edge of romance almost.
Like one of my favorites is Seven Days in June
and that deals with a lot of topics. I know,
you're hitting people in their hearts.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Yeah, I have a really sort of tight knit migraine
community among my readership because my main character in Seven
Days in June, Eva lives with chronic migraine, as do
I since I was a little girl. And it's not
really a represented disease. It's an invisible disease. It's completely
(38:45):
you know, debilitating. But you look quote unquote normal, you know,
whatever normal looks like. People will have a hard time
processing that your pain is real, especially.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
When everybody's a headache.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
You're in there when you eat some coffee or you're hungover.
So it's hard to understand how isolating that feeling is.
You feel like an alien. And so I think for
readers who have migraine to see themselves in a sexy
love story of all things, like the last things you
feel like doing.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
When you're in pain is having sex.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
So, you know, seeing the possibilities of living with this,
you know, chronic pain, but also being you know, a
fully fledged, passionate person, fully embodied person is really special
to migrainers. And then I also have to say it
was just invited to a wedding, which blew my mind?
Speaker 4 (39:38):
Did you go?
Speaker 3 (39:39):
I didn't go because I couldn't go, but I would
have gone.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
She was getting married in Vegas, and so she was like,
I'm shooting my shot, you know, will you come? I
could not go, but I sent her a bunch of
books and a gift, and you know, yeah, but I
thought that was just completely fabulous.
Speaker 4 (39:56):
That is so fabulous. Love it.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
You know, you guys seem so generous with your knowledge
and your learnings. I'm curious for emerging romance writers, what's
one piece of advice that actually matters? And then what's
one piece of advice that you think is outdated.
Speaker 4 (40:20):
Finish the book. We spend a lot of time talking
about the book. Finish the book, and then learn as
much as you can about the writing as a business,
because there are people out here who will steal your
dreams because that's their they think that's their job. So yeah,
(40:42):
those are my two little.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Ones, well said Kennedy. How about you?
Speaker 5 (40:47):
Yeah, I would say for me, what is outdated and
for some people I wouldn't say outdated, but not fits.
One size fits all is write every day.
Speaker 4 (40:58):
I don't.
Speaker 5 (40:58):
I don't write every day, you know, and actually I
write very little. What I mean by that is like
the creative process for me is usually like a lot
I mentioned you in my background is journalism. I will
spend three months just interviewing people and reading the books
they tell me I should read, and listening to the
podcast and like literally I will spend three four months
just doing that and then I'm like, oh god, now
(41:20):
I have to write them book.
Speaker 4 (41:21):
You know.
Speaker 5 (41:22):
But for me, that is writing, you know, Like I'm
in some of these groups like where they're like, you know,
how what's your word count for the day at five
thousand words? What about you?
Speaker 4 (41:30):
Kennedy?
Speaker 5 (41:30):
And I'm like, I have no words, but I did
three hours on Zoom interviewing and I read that. You know,
so for me that is writing. I think the real
takeaway from that is figure out what works best for you.
Like no one size, whatever, somebody tells you this is
the thing that you do that works for everybody. It's
usually you know, for there's somebody that's not going to fit.
(41:52):
And I think the big advice I think is it
kind of goes back to what mss bev was talking
about was craft, because I feel like there is just
like a deficit right now of like especially like a
deficit of craft, like a deficit of valuing craft. Dig
into your craft. But also business going. Inde taught me
(42:13):
how to be a business woman, taught me how to
be a creative who is running a business. And I
brought that same mentality when I came back in traditional publishing.
I brought that with me. You know, I don't work
for anyone. I don't have a boss. I have partners.
You know, we work together. We have a common goal,
which is to sell this book. You have a stake,
(42:35):
I have a steak. You have knowledge. I have knowledge.
You understand something about what you do. I understand my audience.
I understand black women. I understand who this book is
written for. That has to inform our strategy, you know.
So for me, it's like learn the business, learn how
because when you step into a lot of especially us
(42:56):
as black women, generally, black authors were not getting the
same promotional budgets. We're not getting the same strategy, We're
not getting the same level of support. You need to
understand how does this, how is this going to succeed?
What are the gaps I have to step into, because
there are gaps, you know. So that's what I would say,
is learn the craft and learn the business.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Well said Ta, I saw you nodding. I'm so curious
what your answer is to this question.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
So I really you know, I love an MFA. I
love you know, creative writing, higher education, education.
Speaker 3 (43:33):
All of that. I also really love just.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Reading everything, everything, the back of cereal boxes, everything, like
just understand the way language moves. Understand you know. When
I was a kid, I was so obsessed with Stephen King.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
I would just write in.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Longhand his paragraphs just to understand the architecture of like
how a story flows, you know, go back to the basics,
like understand the architecture of a sense, the architecture of
a story, how plot works.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
There are a million ways to get to that happily
ever after.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Yes, And it just behooves you to learn really the craft,
and you don't have to go to school for it,
but you do have to educate.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Yourself well in that vein. Usually I ask people what's
on their bedside table, but I have three absolute lovers
of language here, so I'm gonna ask you a different question,
which is, what is the last line or scene that
took your breath away? And who wrote it?
Speaker 4 (44:43):
Jesus, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Oh my god, Beverly, I know you've read some heat
recently that took your breath away.
Speaker 4 (44:52):
I have a book club on Facebook and we do
my books and so we start it over again and
we're doing them in print order.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
That's cool.
Speaker 4 (45:05):
So I've been taking out some of the old historicals
and reading them and stuff, and Through the Storm, which
is the book that we're going to do next month.
The trope is a lot of tropes, but it's also
a marriage of convenience mm hm. And Raymond, who is
the hero, has this love hate thing for the woman
(45:26):
that he has married, but he walks in on her
one night on the way to his mistress's birthday party,
and so it gets to the point where he winds
up spending the night and as he's leaving that next morning,
suit all wrinkled and stuff from being on the floor
and you know, and all of that, and he's outside
(45:46):
with his brothers who were looking at him like, where'd
you sleep last night? You look like he slept in
a garbage bind And she walks out. She got a
wrapper on. She walks out into the porch and she says, Ray,
you forgot your watch until you you're a mistress. I'm
sorry that I made you miss her birthday part. And
she just sat she's her little lass home back in
(46:08):
the house.
Speaker 5 (46:09):
And her brother was.
Speaker 4 (46:10):
Like, oh man, for me, I love that scene.
Speaker 5 (46:18):
I didn't know where it was going.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Oh my god, what a good one.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
Through the storm people through the storm.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Grab a copy, I think because we're on audio Tia
and Kennedy, Kennedy and I were trying not to laugh
too hard for those so good.
Speaker 4 (46:38):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Oh amazing, Tia and Kennedy, if you have one, I'd
love to hear. And if it's too hard, I have
a different question I can ask you.
Speaker 5 (46:47):
I have a recommendation. Like in general, I think everybody's well,
a lot of us have been obsessed with heated rivalry.
I had read those books years ago, so I loved them.
But so I have like an mm, you know, queer
story wreck queer series. There is an author named Gregory Ash.
I love procedurals, so this series is kind of like
(47:10):
True Detective, but make it queer. And Gregory Ash he
writes this couple Hazard in Somerset, and they have like
sixteen books, so it's not like a happily ever after.
It's like each book you're building a relationship over the
course of like sixteen books, you know. So eventually they
get married, eventually they adopt kids. It's this whole world
(47:31):
and there's a serial killer the keeper of these and
one of them is afraid for the other, and they
go out under the stars and they it's cold, and
they pull this blanket around each other, and there's just
this whole metaphor that Gregory builds using constellations and interstellar
language and its cosmic shifts, and it's just it's just gorgeous.
(47:56):
Like the language is gorgeous, the relationship is beautiful and
you feel like you know these characters over the course
of like sixteen novels. So it's one of my favorite series.
It's Gregory ash and it's Hazard in Summerset.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
Amazing.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Okay, So this is in the arc of Walter Mosley's
new book.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
It's called Galen, a Romance in Black.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
It's you know, obviously Walter Mosley detective God right, like
detective fiction God. But there's a love story in it
that is some of the most beautiful romance frankly writing
that I have read in ages. The main character, Galen,
is the focus of the book, but it starts off
with how his parents met and fell in love in
(48:40):
the nineties, and it's just soaring, beautiful but really simple language.
And sometimes I find as a romance writer that I
find inspiration in these places that are outside of our genre.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
You know, Beverly earlier when you said Dragons, I was
thinking to Beverly Jenkins read Fourth Wing.
Speaker 4 (49:02):
I did, Yeah, I did. I read it. I really
loved the first book. I have not had a chance
to read anything after that. But I'm a big fantasy reader.
I don't read a lot of romance these days. I
read a lot of fantasy, though I have a dragon
book in me. Also, I have pitched it to my
agent and she loves it. So I just don't know
(49:25):
when mama's gonna have the time to do it. You know.
Speaker 5 (49:28):
That's romanticy from Beverly Jenkins would be a.
Speaker 4 (49:32):
Man, I'm telling me, you know. So, yes, I got
a couple things in the pipeline right now, but I'd
love to do do my dragons because I want to
see a black woman writing a dragon And I don't
know that there have been a few people who have
done that, but you know my own spin on it.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
What are you all so obsessed with right now that
you could just write a book about it?
Speaker 5 (49:55):
I don't know that I'm as obsessed, obsessed enough like
to write a book about it. But like the obsession
I'm just coming off of, of course, is heated rivalry.
Like it was a it was at a really dangerous place.
It was in a dangerous place, like we're talking about
ordering the merch. I mean, I'm a loon. That's what
our fandom is. We're called loons. I'm in the lunacy.
(50:17):
So all of it, like think pieces, the whole thing.
So that's what I was obsessed with But I was
telling Tia, now I'm obsessed with industry, which is I
love good television, like elevated prestige television. I love it,
love it, love it. And so I'm obsessed with industry.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
Me too, Tia. What are you so obsessed with you
could write a book about it.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
So I am also in love with industry. But I'm
really really gone down a rabbit hole of nostalgia with
a love story about jfk Junior and Carolyn Bassett. And
not just because I grew up in a Kennedy house,
but I was.
Speaker 3 (50:58):
I was there, like that was my era in New York.
And you know, when I.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Worked at L I was a few floors under George Magazine,
and so John F. Kennedy Junior sighting was like everything.
And I actually saw him the day before he died
on the elevator, which is a whole other story. But
it's just giving me so much New York in the
nineties vibes, Like it's the intersection of fashion and magazine
(51:23):
and media and celebrity and the nightlife, and it's just
really bringing me back to a really exciting, precious time.
Speaker 4 (51:32):
Yeah, I'm you know, an entirely different kind of thing.
I'm obsessed with. Where the hell is spring? So I
can get outside and play in the dirt. You know,
I want to see how my rosas are doing. I
want to see how my lilies, whether the squirrel has
(51:53):
I love it, bulbs out of the box, you know.
So I'm an old lady. You know I'm a simple girl. Also,
you know, those are the things that rock my world
right now.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
So I don't know when I'm gonna have you three
back in the same room. So I want to do
the mother of all romance pitches with the three of
you together. We're gonna write a romance novel together. I'll
ask you a question, and then each of you builds
a new part of the story. Okay, ok I'm so
bad at this.
Speaker 5 (52:26):
Okay, go.
Speaker 1 (52:28):
So, Beverly, I want to start with you. What era,
time period setting?
Speaker 4 (52:33):
Oh, since they do contemporaries, let's do contemporaries so they
won't be scared. Okay, thank you? Miss Yeah. Present day
and we are in Harlem. How's that, TiO?
Speaker 1 (52:48):
What's the female main character's job or role?
Speaker 3 (52:53):
Portrait painter?
Speaker 1 (52:54):
Who Kennedy, this is your expertise? What's our meet cute.
Speaker 5 (52:59):
Okay. She is a portrait painter and a client wants
her to paint her son for his birthday, and so
their mee cute is their first session where he's sitting
for her.
Speaker 1 (53:14):
Ooh, very titanic. I love it, Beverly. Yes, what is
the job of our love interest?
Speaker 4 (53:25):
What does he do? Hmm? If it was the forties,
we could say he was a gentleman gangster. I sick.
We could do that. We'll put it in the thirties
and he's a gentleman gangster.
Speaker 5 (53:40):
I thought we were present day.
Speaker 4 (53:41):
Oh that's right. We did say preend. I won't say
I'm a pants or stuff changes.
Speaker 5 (53:48):
We're in the thirties now, Tia.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
What's the romance trope that you want to subvert and
play with?
Speaker 4 (53:56):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (53:57):
Okay, so grumpy sunshine. People always, for some reason, they
always think that the woman has to be sunshine and
the man has to be grumpy.
Speaker 3 (54:07):
So let's have the woman, the painter.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
Be really grumpy and really precious about my work and
very serious. Nothing's funny about this, no funny business. No,
you know, I'm super professional.
Speaker 3 (54:25):
Keep it in your pants. I don't do nudes.
Speaker 4 (54:28):
Mm hm.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
And maybe the gangster guy getting his portrait. Yes, his
mom gifted him this, but he is immediately in love
with her and decides to request a nude portrait. And
(54:50):
he's being very cheeky about it, you know, almost like.
Speaker 3 (54:55):
Daring her, like, oh, why are you so uptight?
Speaker 2 (54:58):
You know what, it's the human bos Like, it's I'm
just a client.
Speaker 3 (55:03):
I'm just you know, are you chicken?
Speaker 2 (55:11):
And she's like, no, I can do this, and so
she tries, you know, she paints his portrait and tries
to keep a straight face the whole time, and we
see what happens.
Speaker 1 (55:21):
Kennedy, what's our conflict? What's keeping them apart?
Speaker 5 (55:25):
What's keeping them apart is that she is a married woman.
She's a married woman. But what he doesn't know is
that it's a lavender marriage. We're in the thirties rights
a lavender marriage.
Speaker 4 (55:41):
What does that mean?
Speaker 5 (55:42):
That is when it's when a queer person is in
a marriage basically for protection, you know, it's like almost.
Speaker 3 (55:49):
Like a beard.
Speaker 5 (55:50):
Yeah, so it's a lavender marriage, but it's not something
that she can leave easily. And also the man she's
in the lavender marriage with is his arch enemy, so
he's also a gangster. He's a queer gangster. Oh my
lavender marriage with a portrait painter and his arch nemesis
(56:12):
is our sunshine gangster. So that's all right, there we go.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
Okay, we are almost there, Beverly. What's our climax? Where
do they profess their love to one another?
Speaker 4 (56:27):
Oh? My god? Okay, so we got these two men
are main heroes. Brother okay is also gay.
Speaker 5 (56:38):
Oh I love this.
Speaker 4 (56:40):
He hooks them to up so that she can step
out of that marriage. They can do their thing as
roommates or cousins. Yes, and she can step up into
(57:00):
the relationship with our sunshine gambler. All is well, we
got our hg A, we got two h e as
well the end.
Speaker 2 (57:12):
And but also the gangster can launder his money by
opening up a portrait studio for his woman.
Speaker 5 (57:20):
Yes, there you go.
Speaker 1 (57:22):
Yes, now that is a happily ever aka yay a,
we did it, We did it. Do you think it's
the best seller? I think we have a shot, guys.
Speaker 4 (57:34):
I love it. I think we own and we own
that that idea. So nobody who's listening to this.
Speaker 1 (57:43):
Sorry, and Kennedy is going to get us the cover
that we want.
Speaker 5 (57:47):
Yes, yes, that I could do, that I could do.
Speaker 1 (57:50):
I'm wanting a Kennedy to you Beverly Tour. I don't
know if that's possible. Maybe this is the beginning of
something great. But I so appreciate all of your time.
Speaker 4 (57:58):
This was so fun. Thanks for having v having good
time the best.
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(01:00:15):
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Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
He
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club is presented by Apple Books. Hi,
I'm Danielle Robe and this is Bookmarked by Reese's book Club.
This week feels significant. Let me tell you why. For
the first time ever, generations of romance writers Beverly Jenkins,
Tia Williams, and Kennedy Ryan are in an interview together Romance.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
One of the things that drew me to it is
how opposite.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Of my worldview it is. It's like lithium literary lithium.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
Lolita is not a romance. Neither is Anna Karenina. No,
you've got a woman who throws herself under a train
because of a can I say, boy, Yeah, we.
Speaker 5 (00:47):
Are glad that you said it.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
And if you read romance, you know that this is
a big deal. And if you aren't a romance girly yet,
let me tell you this is a big deal. So
here's the rundown. Ever, really, Jenkins has been publishing since
the nineteen nineties, long before algorithms in book talk and
before romance was a billion dollar business. Right she helped
pioneer black historical romance when the industry wasn't exactly asking
(01:13):
for it. She writes these sweeping meticulously researched love stories
where black women are desired and complex and undeniably the
heroine for so many readers and writers. Beverly didn't just
publish books. She widened the doorway, and then Tia Williams
walked through it, and in her very teaway she redesigned
(01:36):
the house. One of my favorite romance books ever is
Hers Seven Days in June, And if you read that
or her novel A Love Song for Ricky Wilde, you
know that Tia can wreck us emotionally in the most
exquisite way. And before she was even a novelist, Tia
was shaping culture as a beauty editor at l Essence
(01:58):
and Glamour. No matter her medium, Tia knows how to
tell a story. And then there is Kennedy. Ryan Kennedy
builds outward. She's built a global community around romance that
does not look away from real life. Her books are
sweeping and sensual, yes, and they also confront disability, addiction,
(02:18):
reproductive rights, systemic injustice. Kennedy insists that love stories can
hold both heat and humanity. There's a few things I
deeply loved about this conversation. It wasn't just the laughter
or the banter between the three of them. It was
so cool to hear about and witness in real time
(02:38):
what a difference a generation makes. When Beverly started out,
romance novels were read in private and kind of pass
hand to hand under the table. And now Kennedy and
Tia are superstar novelists whose books get passed around like
a viral meme. So if you believe in the power
of love stories, if you've ever needed permission to take
up space on the page, or if there's just a
(03:00):
story in your heart waiting to be written, you're in
the right place. Let's turn the page with Beverly Jenkins,
Tia Williams, and Kennedy Ryan. Welcome to the club, Tia, Kennedy, Beverly,
this is so exciting.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
So thrilled to be here. Thank you for having us.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
Oh yeah, glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Is this the first time you've all been together in
one room?
Speaker 5 (03:28):
I think so, the three of us together never So
I need my screenshot before this is all over.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
Yeah, these are two of my favorite girls.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Well, I feel like I'm in the presence of romance
Royalty right now. You have given us friends to lovers,
second chances, enemies to lovers, slow burns that I think
nearly killed us the whole spectrum of falling in love.
So I'm gonna be honest with you all. I'm determined
(03:58):
to meet a man this year.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
Girl naming and claimingfication. Make sure it's a good one though.
You know there's a bunch of frogs out there right.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Well, I need the experts and with your deep knowledge
of what makes a relationship actually thrive. So what is
the best relationship wisdom that you have gained through writing
your love stories? Beverly, you are the pioneer of this
modern genre. Will you do the honors of going first
for me?
Speaker 4 (04:28):
I mean, whether it's writing books or whether it's real
love us hard work, you know. And I had my
husband for thirty years before you know, I lost him
a cancer. But there were days when I wanted to
bury him in the backyard. And I've said it before
and as the days he wanted to bury me in
the backyard. So love is hard work. So that's my.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Take, Well said and real thank you, Beverly, Tia.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
What do you think you know?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
It's funny you say you want to find a man
this year. You can find a man outside right now.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
You could go to the bodeque. They're everywhere. But the
thing is, it's the right man.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
And I feel like the right man for an evolved
woman is an evolved man. And you know, I always
say that in my books all the men have gone
to therapy. While that's not you know, it's harder to
find in real life. I think having intellectual curiosity and
emotional curiosity and a willingness to sort of unpack his layers,
(05:29):
I think that makes a great partner, assuming that you,
as a woman, have also done the work too. I
feel like we get into problems with guys when they
show up like halfway realized, like they have. They don't
really know why they do the things that they do,
and if they haven't done that work, it's hard for
them to like show up with any grace and authenticity.
(05:52):
For us, that was so much weaponized therapy talk.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I'm so embarrassed, Tiya, you're speaking to my So that's
what I run into, Kennedy, what do you think?
Speaker 5 (06:04):
Yeah, I think it kind of builds off of both
of those answers in that I'm looking for I have.
I have been married to the same man for almost
thirty years. So we got together young and we've grown together,
and I think he's a therapized man. You know, he
wasn't always neither one of us were. But it goes
(06:25):
back to what Miss Bev was saying about, like doing
the work. And I think that one thing that has
been So we've been through a lot, you know, even
when I write, I talk about people like why do
you write the hard stuff? And I'm like, really, I
think that love shines brightest when it's tested, you know,
and being with someone who you can walk through hard
things with, and that it's somebody who is secure enough
(06:46):
to support you no matter what, and you feel the same.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
What I'm hearing from you is a deep commitment, like
a not giving up regardless of the circumstance. Yeah, that's beautiful, Beverly.
You've been publishing romance for over thirty years. Jesus, you
survived fabio covers, you survived the mass market paperback era,
(07:10):
you survived the kindle revolution, and now you're surviving book talk. Okay,
So what was your oh this is it moment back
in nineteen ninety four, when did you know I'm not
just writing books, I'm shifting culture A.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Lot of things black women had been reading romance forever,
even when there was nothing in the market for us.
And the stories that I received, you know, on tour
and you know, at my pajama party and stuff about
how they reacted let me know that, you know, we
(07:44):
sort of put a shift in the world. One woman
told me that when she picked up she saw a
Night Song, which was the first book she picked it up,
she was freaked out by the cover two black people
on a romance, she said. The first thing she did
was open it up to the back to see who
had written it, she said, And when I saw it
was a black woman, she said, I sat on the
(08:05):
floor in the bookstore right there and started reading. Oh wow.
So I got a lot of stories like that, And
then I got when Indigo was published, a letter from
Dangerfield Nuby's descendants. And Dangerfield Nuby was one of the
black men who was killed with John Brown during the
(08:26):
the rated Harper's Ferry, and they were writing me to
let me know that they were so proud that I
was highlighting their ancestor and his contribution. And I was like, WHOA,
this is wild. I was, you know, I was so
moved and so just to love and respect. And you know,
(08:49):
I don't know purpose that the book served over these
thirty years. So I'm so grateful to the readers. I
don't know what to do. And these young ladies here too.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
It's not often, especially nowadays, that anyone or I have
the opportunity to speak to somebody who pioneered an industry,
and so to hear your perspective is personally just so
exciting to me but also so valuable. And I see
Tia and Kennedy as you're speaking. I can tell both
(09:21):
of you are so moved by Beverly's words. Can I
just ask you, like what you were feeling as she
was sharing.
Speaker 5 (09:27):
That every time I am with Miss Bev, I feel
incredibly moved. This is this is like now, it's like
legend for me, lore for me that the first time
I met Miss Bev was at Essence Fest maybe two or.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
Three years ago.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
But when I came face to face with Miss Bev,
I literally, Miss Bev, is this that true? Sobbing?
Speaker 4 (09:55):
It was an ugly cry It was a cry job.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
You know, and I couldn't control it. I didn't know
what was gonna happen, but I just felt like I
am standing in the presence of greatness, you know, I
felt like I am standing in front of somebody who
every time I talk about it, I get emotional. But
I just felt like I'm on this woman's shoulders, you know,
And like I am a lifelong romance reader. I started
(10:22):
reading romance in the eighth grade, which was a long
time ago, and I remember how overwhelmingly white it was,
you know, even in people who would inspire me as
a writer. And then to come back to romance later
and to see somebody like miss Bev, who I always
say it didn't exist. There was no blueprint for it,
there was no roadmap for it, and she made it
(10:44):
out of nothing, you know. And so to be in
that tradition, you know, of black romance and of romance
writing as a black woman, it's incredibly moving. Like I cry,
just every time I'm with her, I cry. I mean,
I also could be paramid a pause, but like.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
You and I have to bring up too though, that
I'm standing on shoulders, you know. I'm standing on Sandra
Kit's shoulders. I'm standing on Roslynd Wells shoulders. I'm standing
on Francis Ellen Watkins Harper. Nineteenth century abolitionists womanist, one
of the first women to ever do a whole lot
of stuff, and she wrote the very first African American romance,
(11:28):
Iola LeRoi in eighteen ninety two, she was seventy years old,
to go with her the most iconic poem in abolition,
Bury Me in a Free Land. So we are all
standing on shoulders, and I would be remiss to say
that I invented anything because I didn't.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Spoken like a true pioneer. Beverly Tia, do you remember
the first time you read a Beverly Jenkins book? Was
it a I see myself? Was it, Oh, this is
what's possible? Was it this is what I need to do?
(12:14):
What did you feel?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
So when Miss bev was telling the story about the
woman who sat down in the bookstore, that was me?
Speaker 3 (12:20):
I mean was that was not me? But that was
my reaction with nights on Wow.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
I've been a romance reader since I was nine years old,
stealing my mom's historical romances.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And you know, yes, we.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
All stand on shoulders, but in my lifetime they're just
it just didn't exist. And so I grew up with
the Jude Devereaus and the Woodow Whisses, and I loved them,
and I would recast all the characters as black people.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
In my mind. And I knew at a young age.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
That I was going to grow up and write those
kinds of books but starring us, because having to picture
yourself as the black version of something is whack. And
then so reading Night Song, just seeing the cover took
me clean out because I'm still coming from a place
and I think culturally where we're all still coming from
a place where do we even want.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
To read historical fiction starring us? Like what was really happening?
Speaker 4 (13:20):
You know?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
And I know that Miss Bev opened my mind up
to a world in which we had humanity, and we
had love, and we had all of the feelings and
the passions and the emotions that we have now then,
So yeah, it was like seeing myself for the first time.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
First of all, thank you for sharing that, Tiya, And
per usual, you bring up an even larger point I think,
which is that historical romance can sometimes romanticize the past.
And when I watch Bridgerton, I want to fall in
love with a castle and wear ball gowns. But a
lot of the stories that take place in a past
(13:59):
era where shaped by racial violence. I'm curious Beverly, How
did you thread the needle of depicting a beautiful love
story without softening the reality of the era that it's
shaped by.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
By keeping the story focused on the couple, you know,
because it's a romance. And yes, you have Jim Crow,
and yes you have you know, the Red Summer nineteen nineteen,
and you've got Tulsa and you have the Luncheons. But
our people survived that with fearlessness and cleverness and love.
(14:33):
So I focused that my story is on that relationship
and the rest of it is in the background. Because
even with like I said, even with all of the
crap that we've had to put up with as black
people in America, we still loved. We still had marriages,
our men still courted us, we still built colleges, you know,
(14:53):
so that tradition of all of the things that we face,
and we still loved.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
I was lucky enough to interviewed Tia a year or
two ago, and I learned that she sort of had
this past life before she became a novelist. She was
a beauty editor at a very prominent magazine. Tia, your
law runs so deep.
Speaker 5 (15:15):
It's pretty deep.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
I have some stories, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
I actually don't know if Beverly or Kennedy had a
past life either. Were you guys full time writers always
or did you also have a past life?
Speaker 5 (15:27):
Oh gosh, I definitely have a past life. My background
is journalism. And when my son was diagnosed with autism
when he was two, maybe within the next like two years,
I started a foundation for families with children with autism
and I ran that for eleven years. I have still
an auction that raises a lot of money for autism,
like that's connected to the book community. So autism advocacy,
(15:51):
special needs parenting, like that's something that is such a
huge part of my life and my life purpose. So
that's a big part of my life. Before I started publishing,
you know, I thought I was going to be, you know,
reporting from a war torn country, and now I'm writing,
you know, meet cutes.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
So I had no intention of being a writer. All
I ever wanted to do was work in a library,
and life gave me that. And the next thing, I know,
you know, life sometimes or the Lord of the universe
hands and stuff and says here where this hat. And
I was like, oh okay, one of my colleagues had
just gotten published and I told her about this little
(16:30):
raggedy manuscript that I was working on just for me.
Because this was like nineteen eighty five. There was no
mass market for us in romance or anything else back then,
very limited. She wanted to see it, and so I
brought it in and she said, you need to get
this published. And I'm like, where, how? With who? And
some kind of way, I found Vivian Stevens, who basically
(16:53):
invented American romance. She's the first black editor at Harlequin.
She started Silhouette. So all of that anyway, I sent
my little raggedy manuscript to her to shut Laverna up
my friend at work. She called me at the desk
less than a week later and said she wanted to
represent me.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
I think I should say that when I was growing up,
I had two dreams, and it was to be a
magazine editor, live in New York and do that whole thing,
but also to write fiction and to be a romance novelist.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
I always knew that, and.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
I moved to Brooklyn and I started as an editorial
assistant y a magazine. I was like, okay, so that dream, okay,
I can you know, check that off the list. But
now I have to write my novel. But I realized
that I didn't really have any exciting experience. I sat
down to write, and I was like, what am I
writing about? I went to college, I just graduated, and
(17:52):
now I'm doing like I hadn't really had like any
big boyfriends or any like, how am I going to
write about sex?
Speaker 3 (17:58):
What am I doing? I mean, I wasn't a virgin,
but like it was early.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Just to be clear, you're clear, I mean I was
out there, but I wasn't out there, so I wanted
to get some experience. So like fast forward four years later,
I met Glamour. I'm the first black beauty editor at Glamor. Okay,
and this was a big deal. And I was dating
a very charismatic psycho and which is what you do
(18:24):
at twenty five And this is like Devilwar's Prada magazine era.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
You know.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
I had an editor throw a bagel at my head. Okay,
Like oh wow, it was wild, and I was like,
you know what, it's a no for me.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
So I broke up with the guy, put all my
stuff in storage, quit the job at Glamour, which was
a big deal because I was the first and the
only in the room, but I felt like I was
slipping away. So in a move of self preservation, I
went to Seville, Spain for six months to teach Spanish
to third graders. And while I was there, I the
(19:00):
story of my psycho romance. But I wrote it in
my favor and made him fabulous and gave it a
happy ending. And when I got back to New York
and you know, went back to my magazine job, I
realized that that was my first book.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
I wrote it.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
That was the Eccidental Diva in two thousand and four.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
First of all, Tia, thank you for chiming in and
sharing the larger story, because I would have been so
sad if we didn't hear that. But also, I actually
I'm really curious how you guys feel about happy endings.
Do you think that a romance book requires one?
Speaker 5 (19:35):
Yes, I mean the genre, the definition by definition, in
the genre, a romance requires a happily ever after, or
it's not a romance. That's something for some reason. It's
like hotly debated now, like you can have a love
story with a tragic ending, but you can't have a romance.
And I know people are gonna be like what some
(19:56):
people still, but like a romance novel, by definition of
the genre, has a happily ever after.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
It's either a HIA or a hf N, which is
happy for now, which is most ya. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Now, do you all think that you were optimistic by
nature and so you were drawn to romance or has
the genre made you really believe in the hia the
happily ever after?
Speaker 3 (20:23):
I'm not optimistic at all.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
That's why his favorite genre is like horror, okay, And.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
I'm a big fantasy reader, so gotta have dragons.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, I mean, I prefer when everyone dies.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
At the end.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
But romance, one of the things that drew me to
it is how opposite.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Of my worldview it is. It's like lithium.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Well, literary is not a romance. Neither is Anna Karenina
throws herself under a train because of a can I say, boy.
Speaker 5 (21:03):
We are glad that you said.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
A lot of times you know blue, But that is
not a romance.
Speaker 5 (21:11):
I think the thing I love most about romance is that, like,
I write about some really difficult things, you know, like
and I enjoy that, and people are like, oh, why
do you write trauma? I'm like, we're not writing Trauma's
just life. And a lot of our white counterparts get
to write deeply emotional stories that really excavate the human experience,
(21:33):
and that's what they call it is it's deeply emotional,
excavating the human experience. But when we write it, it's like, oh,
that's it's trauma just because we as black women are
writing it. And I never write the hurt without the healing.
But I think that the thing I love about romance
is it is the safest genre landscape to unpack those
big emotions and those huge, deeply evocative human experiences. And
(21:57):
the reason I say it's safe is because we have
guaranteed joy at the end. So it's like, yes, I
am talking about something that's really deep, I'm talking about
something that's really possibly hurtful, but there is a path
to healing and there's a path to joy, and we
are the only genre that guarantees that. And so when
people talk about the predictability of the happily ever after,
(22:17):
like it's so predictable, the human experience is not predictable.
Like the journey that we are taking to become who
we become a part and together is not predictable. The
only thing that is safe is that you will get
joy in the end. And so that's my approach to romance.
You know, Kennedy Deacon, Kennedy girl.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
When you talk, it's like, listen, we're in church.
Speaker 5 (22:39):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
It's so true, it's so good.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
All of you write multi layered characters with agency and desirability.
What does it mean to write black female desire without
a apology?
Speaker 4 (23:00):
Freedom? It's revolutionary, it's radical. We look back through our history,
Dorothy Sterling says, the black women in the nineteenth century
had three gifts. We worked whether we were enslaved or free.
We had a commitment to social activism and cultural activism,
and we pushed the envelope on gender and race. We
(23:22):
are still practicing those gifts today because we have no choice.
So we are still doing all of those gifts. And
you put those with the women that we write, and
you got a complete character there.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Tia.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
At the beginning of this conversation, you were talking about
how you had to put yourself into these white characters, which,
to quote you felt whack. I agree. When you think
about readers who see themselves represented for the first time
in your books, what are you hoping that they internalize
about their own desirability and self worth.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
I really just I want, through my characters for women
and whoever to feel possibility and to see what can be.
I mean, I always say that I write for Black
women first and anyone else who comes to it. You know,
I love that, but it's really a gift for black women.
(24:25):
I want everything to be larger than life. I want everything,
every emotion to be big. I want the dialogue to
really sparkle. I want even if they're in a Starbucks,
I want it to be the most dazzling experience in
a Starbucks. I want it to be an escapist, fantasy gift.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
And through that escape.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
I want women to learn about what they like or
what they want, or what they can reach.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
For or even in the careers that.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
I give my main characters, Because like I said, I
was really into Judah Krantz and Jackie Collins and Daniel Steele,
these women in their in their books. You know, they
were art galleries, they were model agents, and you just
never saw black women, you know, in those jobs. And
also in a lot of our you know gen X
and boomer homes.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
We were taught if you're going to be anything.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
You need to be a lawyer or a doctor and
get us out of here, you know, And and the.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Artistic professions weren't really encouraged.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
So all of my main female characters are artists in
some regard. Most of the men are too, because I
want my readers to see that possibility as well, and
see a way to, you know, a way forward doing
something they really love.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
And not something they're you know, cornered or pushed into.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Well said, I love how you said that you write
for black women? And then whoever else? Kennedy and Beverly,
who do you write for me?
Speaker 4 (25:56):
Basically because Tony Morrison say, if there's a story out
there that is not being told and you want to
read it, then you need to write it. And I
grew up in the fifties. There are no books in
the you know, and I read everything in my neighborhood library.
There's nothing on the page for me. So when I
was writing Ninth Song after work, I was writing a
love story for myself.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Kennedy, how about you?
Speaker 5 (26:20):
Yeah, I think I write first for black women. I
do have. I have an indigenous main character. I have
a first generation Mexican American main character. I have an amputee.
I have a lot of the experiences that I am
writing are identities, communities, experiences that have been peripheralized, and
(26:42):
in my work, I want to bring them to the center,
you know, Like I'm constantly thinking about what is the
experience that we haven't seen at the center of narrative,
where those women haven't been told that they are worthy
of a happily ever after, that they are worthy about
pages and unconditional love. And when I'm writing, there's a
specific person in mind. So when I wrote this last book,
(27:04):
I'm thinking about women, specifically Black women who have bipolar
disorder in this country, and what does that experience look like,
and what does it look like when you're navigating something
that lifelong and difficult to have a partner come alongside
you and stand unconditionally and stand no matter what you know.
So that's constantly like the ethos of what I'm doing
(27:25):
in Romance Kennedy.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
When I read your books, I feel as if I'm
getting a story I haven't read before, And I think
the identity aspect is part of it, because you are
calling people in and it doesn't feel like a peripheral
part of the story. It is the story, which is
so cool. I think each of you have found such
a unique approach to stories of romance. And I'm curious,
(27:51):
from like a writing perspective, when you are pitching to agents,
how are you able to carve out a genre that
could feel in credit, be crowded and then get all
these people to be on board, because that seems like
a whole nother layer. And Kennedy, you are breathing heavy.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
You took it.
Speaker 5 (28:11):
You took a breath. When I said that, I think
it was the word pitch to agents.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
I was like, am I doing scary phrase? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I really wrote historical romance during a time that was
like really a time period that's overlooked in black history.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
Yeah, everywhere.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Tia, I think you blend sexy with serious in a
way that it feels like I'm reading somebody's diary, you know.
And Kennedy, you always touch on these social issues. You
each have such a path that you've carved out.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Well, I can say that, you know, and we don't
have to pitch to agents anymore. But you know, back
in the day, it was extremely hard because I came
along during this time that was like posts the nineties,
Black contemporary commercial fiction craze. Unfortunately, it ended up being
(29:13):
a trend, and honestly, I really do think the only
reason that my first novel was published is because it
was right on the heels of a lot of magazine
editor you know, Sex and the City type fiction, Devil
wors Prada, you know plum Sykes that Vogue wrote, wrote one.
You know, all the Vogue editors wrote fiction. Cannice Bushnell
(29:36):
was out here doing the lord's work, and mine was
a black one.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
And I heard that all the time.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
I mean, they even put a letto on the cover
with a very light skin foot to.
Speaker 5 (29:48):
Everyone as coble as possible. I will never forget my
skin foot.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Listen.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
The cover model, which I had no you know, control over,
was the light skin Puerto Rican you can imagine, which
would be great if my character was an extremely light
skinned perto Rican.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
But she was a black woman from Virginia like myself.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Oh man, anyway, But yeah, so you know I've come
up against and when I was selling The Perfect Find
in twenty fifteen, a year before, things changed quite drastically,
and you know, publishers were wanting diverse voices and wanting
to expand their lists beyond you know, white men and
(30:31):
then white women. It was extremely tough because it was
a novel about a fashion editor, and I had very
prominent editors would say things to me like, oh, well,
I don't think it's very believable that a black woman
would be a fashion editor on that level, or can
we change the industry from fashion to something that's more
(30:52):
believable for a black character, to which you know, it
was a no, no, no, I'm not going to change it.
And you have to stick to your And I think
back to your question of you know, how do you
pitch something that doesn't feel believable or doesn't feel real,
or you know, sort of pushing a genre that doesn't
quite exist yet.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
You just have to.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Have tremendous balls and stick to your guns if you
know that what you have is good, and if you
know that what you have is real.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Beverly, I'm so curious what it was like for you
when you started publishing.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
It was interesting and you know she's talking about you know,
them not knowing anything about who we are. That was
part of the reason why I got so many rejection letters.
They didn't have a box for it. Publishing and America
in general, when you have a nineteenth century story with
(31:49):
black people, it's supposed to be about slavery, right, So
here I come with a love story starring an Oberlin
educated school team a black buffalo soldier in an all
black town after the Great Exodus of eighteen seventy nine
on the plains of Kansas. None of that made sense
(32:12):
to anybody because the letters were like, great writing, but
great writing, but great writing. Butte and the Butt had
to do with what the hell we're supposed to do
with this. I was blessed that Ellen Edwards, who was
the executive editor at a Mine at the time, saw
the potential in the story. But you know, it was
(32:34):
a first book. You don't know what the hell you're
doing with your first book. She said, Beverly, I love
your writing, I love the love scenes, but we need
a story. I had like eight hundred pages of heat.
I mean, you need to ask Bestel's gloves to hold
on to that. And I was like, I gotta write
(32:57):
a story. It's just like, yeah, you gotta write a story.
So it didn't make sense, like I said, too, to
put all of that against a white majority background. So
I went in and did the history a little bit deeper,
because I doubt it would have been published the way it.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Was, beautifully, said Beverly Kennedy. I watched in an interview
in your latest book, Can't Get Enough, you said it's
the intersection of swoon and social commentary. And I am
so curious about your relationship with book talk. You're so
popular on there. How much do you take into account
what your fans ask for when it comes to the
(33:40):
stories you're telling.
Speaker 5 (33:41):
I don't, I don't, I don't. I don't you know, I,
like I said, like, I figure out what matters to
me right now, And I'm real, do you know about
the creative process in the sense that I feel like
I'm going to tune in and I'm going to kind
(34:03):
of dial inside and figure out what am I supposed
to be writing right now? Like when I wrote before
I Let Go, I was wrestling with my own depression
and I wrote about depression, and I wrote about therapy
and I wrote about black men getting into therapy and
healing and all of that. It was like, this is
I don't think of myself as just releasing books. And
(34:24):
this sounds so elevated, like, oh my god, you think
you're so important? But I think of myself as not
just releasing a book, but deploying a book, Like I'm
sending this book on a mission. And for me, the
mission with each book is different. And with that book
was all about mental health. It was all about therapy.
It was all about depression, destigmatizing getting help for that,
specifically in the right right. So for me, when I
(34:48):
released that, that's what I'm supposed to be writing, and
I write it when I hear from people like, oh
my gosh, I just handed that book to my husband
who refused to go to therapy. Oh my gosh. I
called my insurance company to see if they will c
you know, my therapy. Oh my gosh. I was recovering
from this, and then I read your book, Like, for me,
that is the first metric of success, and the more
(35:09):
successful you become, the harder it is to stay close
to that. Like then you're like, oh, did I list
and did I sell? And did I do this? So
I'm constantly reminding myself that my first metric for success
is that I achieved what when I dialed into that
voice inside I said was the mission for this book.
When I see it played out in my interactions with
(35:29):
my readers. That for me is the first metric of success.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Kennedy, you were speaking to my soul.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
But you know, that's why romance is so important, because that's.
Speaker 5 (35:40):
What we do.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Yes, you're right, bever That's what we do.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
We connect, you know, we change lives. You go to
signings and people say, well, my mom's in dialysis. Will
you talk to her please?
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (35:51):
I'm like sure. This past summer wanted me to talk
to his great grandmother. She's one hundred and four years old.
She loves my books. I was like, I will zone
with her. So I zoned with this one hundred and
four year old lady and she loved the Blessing series
and her best character was Cleat as Dog. So I
(36:14):
think it's why romance is so important, because of what
we do for our readers' lives and their hearts and
their mental health, and their relationship with other family members
in the world and with themselves.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
I love Beverly. You know you made me kind of wonder,
what's the farthest you've gone with a fan interaction.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
I have a pajama party for two years with my readers.
I don't do it anymore. And then Brenda Jackson has
a cruise and she's got like thousands of people on
this boat, including her pastor.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Kennedy, I saw you nodding. I think you have one.
Speaker 5 (36:52):
Yeah, I have a lot. I mean, my therapist is
constantly telling me to get off social media. She's constantly like,
get off because sometimes it's a lot, you know. But
I love the interaction with my readers and like they're
obviously at this stage, you can't be close to all
your readers, you know, but there's a core of readers
(37:13):
who I interact with on a very consistent basis and
we go pretty deep. Like they know I'm a PK
like Creature's kid, Pastor's kid. You know, my parents are pastors,
so they know that my faith is a big part
of my life. I have readers who are like mss Kennedy.
You know, they come in my dms and they're like,
I got a job interview tomorrow. Will you pray for me?
Like I have, Like it is a whole kind of
(37:37):
like ongoing thing, and it's not just like will you
pray for me? But they'll come in and you know,
ask for advice, and you know they'll come on, I
got a tattoo, you know, based on your book, you know,
and I'm like, oh, that's so cool, you know, so
you know, I it's to me. It's fueling, you.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
Know, it's very fueling.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
You know you've impacted someone when they put a tattoo
in inspired by one of your characters or something like
their world has entered yours at that point.
Speaker 5 (38:05):
Yeah, there's nothing like that, Tia, tell.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Me about yours, because your books really dig deep, like
I think you play at the edge of romance almost.
Like one of my favorites is Seven Days in June
and that deals with a lot of topics. I know,
you're hitting people in their hearts.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Yeah, I have a really sort of tight knit migraine
community among my readership because my main character in Seven
Days in June, Eva lives with chronic migraine, as do
I since I was a little girl. And it's not
really a represented disease. It's an invisible disease. It's completely
(38:45):
you know, debilitating. But you look quote unquote normal, you know,
whatever normal looks like. People will have a hard time
processing that your pain is real, especially.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
When everybody's a headache.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
You're in there when you eat some coffee or you're hungover.
So it's hard to understand how isolating that feeling is.
You feel like an alien. And so I think for
readers who have migraine to see themselves in a sexy
love story of all things, like the last things you
feel like doing.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
When you're in pain is having sex.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
So, you know, seeing the possibilities of living with this,
you know, chronic pain, but also being you know, a
fully fledged, passionate person, fully embodied person is really special
to migrainers. And then I also have to say it
was just invited to a wedding, which blew my mind?
Speaker 4 (39:38):
Did you go?
Speaker 3 (39:39):
I didn't go because I couldn't go, but I would
have gone.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
She was getting married in Vegas, and so she was like,
I'm shooting my shot, you know, will you come? I
could not go, but I sent her a bunch of
books and a gift, and you know, yeah, but I
thought that was just completely fabulous.
Speaker 4 (39:56):
That is so fabulous. Love it.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
You know, you guys seem so generous with your knowledge
and your learnings. I'm curious for emerging romance writers, what's
one piece of advice that actually matters? And then what's
one piece of advice that you think is outdated.
Speaker 4 (40:20):
Finish the book. We spend a lot of time talking
about the book. Finish the book, and then learn as
much as you can about the writing as a business,
because there are people out here who will steal your
dreams because that's their they think that's their job. So yeah,
(40:42):
those are my two little.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Ones, well said Kennedy. How about you?
Speaker 5 (40:47):
Yeah, I would say for me, what is outdated and
for some people I wouldn't say outdated, but not fits.
One size fits all is write every day.
Speaker 4 (40:58):
I don't.
Speaker 5 (40:58):
I don't write every day, you know, and actually I
write very little. What I mean by that is like
the creative process for me is usually like a lot
I mentioned you in my background is journalism. I will
spend three months just interviewing people and reading the books
they tell me I should read, and listening to the
podcast and like literally I will spend three four months
just doing that and then I'm like, oh god, now
(41:20):
I have to write them book.
Speaker 4 (41:21):
You know.
Speaker 5 (41:22):
But for me, that is writing, you know, Like I'm
in some of these groups like where they're like, you know,
how what's your word count for the day at five
thousand words? What about you?
Speaker 4 (41:30):
Kennedy?
Speaker 5 (41:30):
And I'm like, I have no words, but I did
three hours on Zoom interviewing and I read that. You know,
so for me that is writing. I think the real
takeaway from that is figure out what works best for you.
Like no one size, whatever, somebody tells you this is
the thing that you do that works for everybody. It's
usually you know, for there's somebody that's not going to fit.
(41:52):
And I think the big advice I think is it
kind of goes back to what mss bev was talking
about was craft, because I feel like there is just
like a deficit right now of like especially like a
deficit of craft, like a deficit of valuing craft. Dig
into your craft. But also business going. Inde taught me
(42:13):
how to be a business woman, taught me how to
be a creative who is running a business. And I
brought that same mentality when I came back in traditional publishing.
I brought that with me. You know, I don't work
for anyone. I don't have a boss. I have partners.
You know, we work together. We have a common goal,
which is to sell this book. You have a stake,
(42:35):
I have a steak. You have knowledge. I have knowledge.
You understand something about what you do. I understand my audience.
I understand black women. I understand who this book is
written for. That has to inform our strategy, you know.
So for me, it's like learn the business, learn how
because when you step into a lot of especially us
(42:56):
as black women, generally, black authors were not getting the
same promotional budgets. We're not getting the same strategy, We're
not getting the same level of support. You need to
understand how does this, how is this going to succeed?
What are the gaps I have to step into, because
there are gaps, you know. So that's what I would say,
is learn the craft and learn the business.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Well said Ta, I saw you nodding. I'm so curious
what your answer is to this question.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
So I really you know, I love an MFA. I
love you know, creative writing, higher education, education.
Speaker 3 (43:33):
All of that. I also really love just.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Reading everything, everything, the back of cereal boxes, everything, like
just understand the way language moves. Understand you know. When
I was a kid, I was so obsessed with Stephen King.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
I would just write in.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Longhand his paragraphs just to understand the architecture of like
how a story flows, you know, go back to the basics,
like understand the architecture of a sense, the architecture of
a story, how plot works.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
There are a million ways to get to that happily
ever after.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Yes, And it just behooves you to learn really the craft,
and you don't have to go to school for it,
but you do have to educate.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Yourself well in that vein. Usually I ask people what's
on their bedside table, but I have three absolute lovers
of language here, so I'm gonna ask you a different question,
which is, what is the last line or scene that
took your breath away? And who wrote it?
Speaker 4 (44:43):
Jesus, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Oh my god, Beverly, I know you've read some heat
recently that took your breath away.
Speaker 4 (44:52):
I have a book club on Facebook and we do
my books and so we start it over again and
we're doing them in print order.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
That's cool.
Speaker 4 (45:05):
So I've been taking out some of the old historicals
and reading them and stuff, and Through the Storm, which
is the book that we're going to do next month.
The trope is a lot of tropes, but it's also
a marriage of convenience mm hm. And Raymond, who is
the hero, has this love hate thing for the woman
(45:26):
that he has married, but he walks in on her
one night on the way to his mistress's birthday party,
and so it gets to the point where he winds
up spending the night and as he's leaving that next morning,
suit all wrinkled and stuff from being on the floor
and you know, and all of that, and he's outside
(45:46):
with his brothers who were looking at him like, where'd
you sleep last night? You look like he slept in
a garbage bind And she walks out. She got a
wrapper on. She walks out into the porch and she says, Ray,
you forgot your watch until you you're a mistress. I'm
sorry that I made you miss her birthday part. And
she just sat she's her little lass home back in
(46:08):
the house.
Speaker 5 (46:09):
And her brother was.
Speaker 4 (46:10):
Like, oh man, for me, I love that scene.
Speaker 5 (46:18):
I didn't know where it was going.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Oh my god, what a good one.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
Through the storm people through the storm.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Grab a copy, I think because we're on audio Tia
and Kennedy, Kennedy and I were trying not to laugh
too hard for those so good.
Speaker 4 (46:38):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Oh amazing, Tia and Kennedy, if you have one, I'd
love to hear. And if it's too hard, I have
a different question I can ask you.
Speaker 5 (46:47):
I have a recommendation. Like in general, I think everybody's well,
a lot of us have been obsessed with heated rivalry.
I had read those books years ago, so I loved them.
But so I have like an mm, you know, queer
story wreck queer series. There is an author named Gregory Ash.
I love procedurals, so this series is kind of like
(47:10):
True Detective, but make it queer. And Gregory Ash he
writes this couple Hazard in Somerset, and they have like
sixteen books, so it's not like a happily ever after.
It's like each book you're building a relationship over the
course of like sixteen books, you know. So eventually they
get married, eventually they adopt kids. It's this whole world
(47:31):
and there's a serial killer the keeper of these and
one of them is afraid for the other, and they
go out under the stars and they it's cold, and
they pull this blanket around each other, and there's just
this whole metaphor that Gregory builds using constellations and interstellar
language and its cosmic shifts, and it's just it's just gorgeous.
(47:56):
Like the language is gorgeous, the relationship is beautiful and
you feel like you know these characters over the course
of like sixteen novels. So it's one of my favorite series.
It's Gregory ash and it's Hazard in Summerset.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
Amazing.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Okay, So this is in the arc of Walter Mosley's
new book.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
It's called Galen, a Romance in Black.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
It's you know, obviously Walter Mosley detective God right, like
detective fiction God. But there's a love story in it
that is some of the most beautiful romance frankly writing
that I have read in ages. The main character, Galen,
is the focus of the book, but it starts off
with how his parents met and fell in love in
(48:40):
the nineties, and it's just soaring, beautiful but really simple language.
And sometimes I find as a romance writer that I
find inspiration in these places that are outside of our genre.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
You know, Beverly earlier when you said Dragons, I was
thinking to Beverly Jenkins read Fourth Wing.
Speaker 4 (49:02):
I did, Yeah, I did. I read it. I really
loved the first book. I have not had a chance
to read anything after that. But I'm a big fantasy reader.
I don't read a lot of romance these days. I
read a lot of fantasy, though I have a dragon
book in me. Also, I have pitched it to my
agent and she loves it. So I just don't know
(49:25):
when mama's gonna have the time to do it. You know.
Speaker 5 (49:28):
That's romanticy from Beverly Jenkins would be a.
Speaker 4 (49:32):
Man, I'm telling me, you know. So, yes, I got
a couple things in the pipeline right now, but I'd
love to do do my dragons because I want to
see a black woman writing a dragon And I don't
know that there have been a few people who have
done that, but you know my own spin on it.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
What are you all so obsessed with right now that
you could just write a book about it?
Speaker 5 (49:55):
I don't know that I'm as obsessed, obsessed enough like
to write a book about it. But like the obsession
I'm just coming off of, of course, is heated rivalry.
Like it was a it was at a really dangerous place.
It was in a dangerous place, like we're talking about
ordering the merch. I mean, I'm a loon. That's what
our fandom is. We're called loons. I'm in the lunacy.
(50:17):
So all of it, like think pieces, the whole thing.
So that's what I was obsessed with But I was
telling Tia, now I'm obsessed with industry, which is I
love good television, like elevated prestige television. I love it,
love it, love it. And so I'm obsessed with industry.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
Me too, Tia. What are you so obsessed with you
could write a book about it.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
So I am also in love with industry. But I'm
really really gone down a rabbit hole of nostalgia with
a love story about jfk Junior and Carolyn Bassett. And
not just because I grew up in a Kennedy house,
but I was.
Speaker 3 (50:58):
I was there, like that was my era in New York.
And you know, when I.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Worked at L I was a few floors under George Magazine,
and so John F. Kennedy Junior sighting was like everything.
And I actually saw him the day before he died
on the elevator, which is a whole other story. But
it's just giving me so much New York in the
nineties vibes, Like it's the intersection of fashion and magazine
(51:23):
and media and celebrity and the nightlife, and it's just
really bringing me back to a really exciting, precious time.
Speaker 4 (51:32):
Yeah, I'm you know, an entirely different kind of thing.
I'm obsessed with. Where the hell is spring? So I
can get outside and play in the dirt. You know,
I want to see how my rosas are doing. I
want to see how my lilies, whether the squirrel has
(51:53):
I love it, bulbs out of the box, you know.
So I'm an old lady. You know I'm a simple girl. Also,
you know, those are the things that rock my world
right now.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
So I don't know when I'm gonna have you three
back in the same room. So I want to do
the mother of all romance pitches with the three of
you together. We're gonna write a romance novel together. I'll
ask you a question, and then each of you builds
a new part of the story. Okay, ok I'm so
bad at this.
Speaker 5 (52:26):
Okay, go.
Speaker 1 (52:28):
So, Beverly, I want to start with you. What era,
time period setting?
Speaker 4 (52:33):
Oh, since they do contemporaries, let's do contemporaries so they
won't be scared. Okay, thank you? Miss Yeah. Present day
and we are in Harlem. How's that, TiO?
Speaker 1 (52:48):
What's the female main character's job or role?
Speaker 3 (52:53):
Portrait painter?
Speaker 1 (52:54):
Who Kennedy, this is your expertise? What's our meet cute.
Speaker 5 (52:59):
Okay. She is a portrait painter and a client wants
her to paint her son for his birthday, and so
their mee cute is their first session where he's sitting
for her.
Speaker 1 (53:14):
Ooh, very titanic. I love it, Beverly. Yes, what is
the job of our love interest?
Speaker 4 (53:25):
What does he do? Hmm? If it was the forties,
we could say he was a gentleman gangster. I sick.
We could do that. We'll put it in the thirties
and he's a gentleman gangster.
Speaker 5 (53:40):
I thought we were present day.
Speaker 4 (53:41):
Oh that's right. We did say preend. I won't say
I'm a pants or stuff changes.
Speaker 5 (53:48):
We're in the thirties now, Tia.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
What's the romance trope that you want to subvert and
play with?
Speaker 4 (53:56):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (53:57):
Okay, so grumpy sunshine. People always, for some reason, they
always think that the woman has to be sunshine and
the man has to be grumpy.
Speaker 3 (54:07):
So let's have the woman, the painter.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
Be really grumpy and really precious about my work and
very serious. Nothing's funny about this, no funny business. No,
you know, I'm super professional.
Speaker 3 (54:25):
Keep it in your pants. I don't do nudes.
Speaker 4 (54:28):
Mm hm.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
And maybe the gangster guy getting his portrait. Yes, his
mom gifted him this, but he is immediately in love
with her and decides to request a nude portrait. And
(54:50):
he's being very cheeky about it, you know, almost like.
Speaker 3 (54:55):
Daring her, like, oh, why are you so uptight?
Speaker 2 (54:58):
You know what, it's the human bos Like, it's I'm
just a client.
Speaker 3 (55:03):
I'm just you know, are you chicken?
Speaker 2 (55:11):
And she's like, no, I can do this, and so
she tries, you know, she paints his portrait and tries
to keep a straight face the whole time, and we
see what happens.
Speaker 1 (55:21):
Kennedy, what's our conflict? What's keeping them apart?
Speaker 5 (55:25):
What's keeping them apart is that she is a married woman.
She's a married woman. But what he doesn't know is
that it's a lavender marriage. We're in the thirties rights
a lavender marriage.
Speaker 4 (55:41):
What does that mean?
Speaker 5 (55:42):
That is when it's when a queer person is in
a marriage basically for protection, you know, it's like almost.
Speaker 3 (55:49):
Like a beard.
Speaker 5 (55:50):
Yeah, so it's a lavender marriage, but it's not something
that she can leave easily. And also the man she's
in the lavender marriage with is his arch enemy, so
he's also a gangster. He's a queer gangster. Oh my
lavender marriage with a portrait painter and his arch nemesis
(56:12):
is our sunshine gangster. So that's all right, there we go.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
Okay, we are almost there, Beverly. What's our climax? Where
do they profess their love to one another?
Speaker 4 (56:27):
Oh? My god? Okay, so we got these two men
are main heroes. Brother okay is also gay.
Speaker 5 (56:38):
Oh I love this.
Speaker 4 (56:40):
He hooks them to up so that she can step
out of that marriage. They can do their thing as
roommates or cousins. Yes, and she can step up into
(57:00):
the relationship with our sunshine gambler. All is well, we
got our hg A, we got two h e as
well the end.
Speaker 2 (57:12):
And but also the gangster can launder his money by
opening up a portrait studio for his woman.
Speaker 5 (57:20):
Yes, there you go.
Speaker 1 (57:22):
Yes, now that is a happily ever aka yay a,
we did it, We did it. Do you think it's
the best seller? I think we have a shot, guys.
Speaker 4 (57:34):
I love it. I think we own and we own
that that idea. So nobody who's listening to this.
Speaker 1 (57:43):
Sorry, and Kennedy is going to get us the cover
that we want.
Speaker 5 (57:47):
Yes, yes, that I could do, that I could do.
Speaker 1 (57:50):
I'm wanting a Kennedy to you Beverly Tour. I don't
know if that's possible. Maybe this is the beginning of
something great. But I so appreciate all of your time.
Speaker 4 (57:58):
This was so fun. Thanks for having v having good
time the best.
Speaker 1 (58:07):
I want to talk to you guys about Garden of Life,
a brand that's all about women's wellness and creating supplements
designed specifically to support women through every stage of life.
I love that Garden of Life really recognizes that supplements
aren't one.
Speaker 3 (58:21):
Size fits all.
Speaker 1 (58:22):
Women have unique nutritional needs, and their formulas are developed
with that in mind. They focus on real, traceable ingredients
and thoughtfully crafted blends designed to support women from prenatal
years through menopause. One of their standout products is the
Doctor Formulated one daily Women's Probiotic. It's designed to support
women's microbiome with clinically studied strains to support women's digestive, vaginal,
(58:45):
and immune health, and it's super easy to incorporate just
one capsule a day if you're looking for something foundational.
Their Organics Women's one daily Multivitamin is another great option.
It's sourced from over thirty organic fruits, vegetables, and herbs
with vitamins and minerals including biotin to support skin and nails,
vitamin D three for immune support, and iron for red
(59:07):
blood cell production to give women the support they deserve.
It's a simple way to help fill nutrient gaps and
support your overall wellness, especially if you want something you
can just take once daily and move on with your mourning.
For anyone who's pregnant or thinking about it, Garden of
Life also offers the organics Prenatal Multi, which is formulated
with key nutrients to support mom and baby during.
Speaker 3 (59:28):
The important stage.
Speaker 1 (59:30):
Again, it's made with organic, whole food ingredients that are
traceable back to real sources and I'm excited about this one.
Coming soon in April, they're launching doctor Formulated Probiotics Menopause.
It's designed specifically for women navigating menopause, with Black Cohosh
selected for that stage of life. Across their women's wellness line,
from probiotics to multivitamins to life stage formulas, Garden of
(59:52):
Life emphasizes traceability, third party certifications, and carefully developed formulas.
There are organic multivitamins are made from Whole Foods and
their doctor formulated probiotics are created with expert input. If
you want to learn more or see which product might
fit into your daily routine, shop now on Amazon. These
statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration.
(01:00:15):
These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or
prevent any disease. And if you want a little bit
more from us, come hang with us on socials. We're
at Reese's book Club on Instagram, serving up books, vibes
and behind the scenes magic. And I'm at Danielle Robe
Roba y come say hi and df me. And if
(01:00:37):
you want to go nineties on us, call us Okay,
our phone line is open, so call now at one
five zero one two nine one three three seven nine.
That's one five oh one two nine one three three
seven nine. Share your literary hot takes, book recommendations, questions
(01:00:58):
about the monthly pick, or let us know what you
think about the episode you just heard, and who knows,
you might just hear yourself in our next episode, so
don't be shy. Give us a ring, and of course,
make sure to follow bookmarked by Reese's book Club on
the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your
shows until then see in the next chapter. Bookmarked is
(01:01:21):
a production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart podcast. It's executive
produced by Reese Witherspoon and me Danielle Robe. Production is
by ACAST Creative Studios. Our producers are Matty Foley, Brittany Martinez,
Sarah Schleid. Our production assistant is Avery Loftus. Jenny Kaplan
and Emily Rudder are the executive producers for A Cast
(01:01:42):
Creative Studios. Maureene Polo and Reese Witherspoon are the executive
producers for Hello Sunshine, Olga Cominwa, Kristin Perla and Ashley
Rappaport our associate producers for Reese's book Club. Ali Perry
and Lauren Hansen are the executive producers for iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
He
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