May 10, 2026 • 44 mins
-- Now what? You're trained and you carry a gun, and now you had to draw it in self protection or to help someone. How do you let the responding police know you are a good guy before they shoot you? Mike Lessman at DSM Safety Products came up with an answer.
-- Is the media really biased against guns and gun owners or is it just matter of ignorance? Katie Pavlich has been at the forefront of national media, including Fox News, for years. She's also highly trained in the use of firearms for defense. She shares what she learned about how the media approaches things that go bang.
-- Guns for women. On Mother's Day it's a chance to revisit what guns work for women, and is there really a need to even have different handguns for the sexes?
Gun Talk 05.10.26 Hour 2
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
-- Is the media really biased against guns and gun owners or is it just matter of ignorance? Katie Pavlich has been at the forefront of national media, including Fox News, for years. She's also highly trained in the use of firearms for defense. She shares what she learned about how the media approaches things that go bang.
-- Guns for women. On Mother's Day it's a chance to revisit what guns work for women, and is there really a need to even have different handguns for the sexes?
Gun Talk 05.10.26 Hour 2
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 3 (00:29):
We're still having fun around here. I'm Tom Gresham. This
is gun Talk. Yeah, we're doing live broadcast to day remote.
We're up in I don't know central north central Arizona,
where near Paulton it is. We're actually I guess you
could call it the ground Central if you would. For
defensive firearms training in the US. Its gun Site is
the place that was founded by Jeff Cooper. Today would
(00:51):
be the one hundred and sixth birthday of Colonel Jeff Cooper,
and we're in the fiftieth year of Gunsite celebrating all
sorts of fun things. Of course, it's Mother's day as well.
I may have a mother's story for you here. As
we go along, and we are visiting with a bunch
of our friends and people that we are new friends with,
because everybody you meet at gunsight is your instant friend
(01:12):
because you have shared values, shared experiences.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
The ratio of jerks here is really really small.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
It's what you find. What do they say, an armed
society is a polite society. Thank you, Robert Heinman. All right,
so we are joining right now by Mike Lessman. And Mike,
you got DSM safety products, and you were telling me
during the break that we actually talked four years ago
something like that.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
I mean I kind of barely remember that.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
Probably about five four or five years ago you'd called me.
I was in my office and we talked about DSM
and you said, why don't you make a CCW one.
I kind of explain that. Well, the CCW public kind
of didn't get it at the time.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
All right, Well, first of all, you got what the
product is because we had to tell people because a
lot of people don't know what we're talking about here.
Speaker 5 (02:04):
Well, the DSM safety banner. I was a marine before
I was a policeman, and so things have to be
really simple with me. DSM stands for don't shoot Me.
Speaker 6 (02:12):
What it is.
Speaker 5 (02:13):
It's a critical incident identification system that looks very much
like a beauty queen sash. We've been coined that before, okay,
but it's very effective at good way of explaining it, Yeah,
very effective at identifying a person during a critical incident,
so you don't have friendly fire issues.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
The idea being that if say, if I were consier
carrying and a shooting broke out somewhere and I pulled
my gun out and either did or did not dispatch
the bad guy. Either way, I got a gun out
in the middle of this thing, and the cop show
up and all they know is that people are getting shot,
and they see a guy carrying a gun, right and
I'm that guy carrying a gun. They can't see my
halo from back there where theyrever they are. So this
(02:53):
is a way that I would pull this thing over
my head and it says basically, it's whatever the verbiage is,
but it's basically, they don't shoot me, sad.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
Basically, Yeah. The verbiage could either be anything from a
school guardian to a church safety team that says safety
on it, to a security officer of an executive protection team,
to a law enforcement officer where it says police or
sheriff too. Because of Liosa, it could also say police
(03:22):
was retired off top of it.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Okay, sure, Now, we just saw some of these being used.
I mean, just two weeks ago in the news from
the White House Correspondence dinner, we saw there were security
or officers actually flipped these things up.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
Were they your product? They were using?
Speaker 5 (03:36):
They were I believe that was US Capitol Police that
was doing a protective detail for the Senate whip h.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Okay, well, and they were very effective because when you
looked at the music, yep, that is my first thought is, well,
that's a cop.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Well, which is true.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
It's a cop of some former fashion and somebody involved
in law enforcement, if you will.
Speaker 5 (03:59):
It's the good guy banner right. Well, and what's pretty funny.
I just had a conversation with kind of a non
believer who said, well, you didn't really need that. You
knew who everybody was. And you know, on one of
the pictures there was a guy in a like a
Hawaiian type of shirt by the elevator that had no markings,
no lanyards. I mean you could tell like the Secret
(04:21):
Service guys had like red lanyards, right, but he had
no markings whatsoever. And I was like, all right, tell
me who that guy is. Tell me if you had
a way.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
And shirt with a gun, are we supposed shoot him
or not?
Speaker 5 (04:34):
Exactly?
Speaker 4 (04:35):
That really is what?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
All right, So let's go back to this conversation that
you and I had five years ago now and what
transpired out of that, Well, what ends.
Speaker 5 (04:42):
Up happening was when we originally came out with it,
I was still working at the at my police department,
and we had both. We didn't know which way would
take off. We didn't know whether law enforcement and security
would adapt it, or whether the CCW world would adapt
it or both. And the law enforcement world and security
world just took off. I mean we sell them all
(05:04):
over the world now, I mean we outfit cities in Germany,
citizen in Switzerland, all of the Netherlands, so the Dutch
National Police used them, all of Australia. So it really
has gone worldwide. But what your challenge? And then the
Aravada incident that occurred shortly after that, where a good
(05:26):
guy sees a bad guy shoot a policeman. He ends
up shooting the bad guy and then for some reason
we'll never know why. Goes to clear the bad guy's AR.
Police see him again, came out.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
They shoot the good guy because you a carry guy.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
Yes, And that kind of motivated me to rethink my
stance on that. And so we had started a different
version of the safety banner call the ACID system, and
it's ACID spelled with two c's two eyes, so it's
Armed Citizen, Critical Incident ID. It's about the size one.
(06:05):
It's all folded up. It's about the size of your smartphone, okay,
and it deploys out. It's all black on the exterior,
bright hunter orange on the interior, and it says armed citizen.
And we had started a second company with that. Recently
we've collapsed that company and ACID is going to be
part of DSM as just another product.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
My think, I'm just thinking about how this AR works
and you get into a situation you pulled this out
and you got a sash on, you got this thing on.
It's got some writing on it and it he just
says police or security or whatever. Generally, I'm just thinking,
you've gone through all the training and you've been a
police officer. People are probably not so much reading the
(06:50):
text on there as they are simply seeing this and
it buys you a few seconds.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
It's a micro speed bump into oodle loop, if you will. Basically,
it's just a tap on the brakes, just you know,
see the gun. What is that? What you know? It's
you know. And we picked colors that are ANTSI certified,
so that I mean, unless you're at a highway workers
convention or a cyclist convention, normal people don't wear these colors.
(07:20):
We've had agencies come to me and say we want blue.
Blue is police color. However, the problem is is when
you're people wear blue. People wear blue. It's a common
associated color, all different shades of blue. And so we
were like, no, we ANTSI did their study for a reason,
and we want to stay with why reinvent the wheel.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
You're telling them that actually won't be effective. It's not
what you think it's going to be, right, it won't
be recognized. Okay, So what does the thing cost and
who can get it and how do they go about it?
Speaker 5 (07:49):
On the ASCID system right now, cost is forty five
ninety nine apiece. You could go to dsmsafety dot com
or you can call me and my number seven seven
five two five zero five five two three, and we
can get you set up with that gun site right
(08:10):
here has the acid system in their pro shop. Yeah,
and so we were out here with with that. And
if you're belowng to a either law enforcement organization, a
security team, or a safety team DSM safety dot com,
we got you all covered with that. Uh, we vet
because it's a very reasonable question, Hey, how do we
(08:32):
stop bad guys from getting these? When I first started
the company, that was a tenant of the of the
company was it's about keeping people alive, not bottom line.
And so if you get on on our website and
order let's say a security one, and you're shipping it
(08:54):
to your hometom, we google every address that comes through
and we see it's a residential atta. So you're going
to get an email from us to say, hey, where
do you provide security at, whether paid or voluntarily, and
you respond back to me, you know, first Baptist Church
in Salem, Oregon. We will actually call the first Baptist
Church in Salem and go, hey, do you know Tom
(09:16):
is Tom Freshman part of your security team? And then
we vet it from there. It takes us an extra step,
you know, let you sleep better at night. It's not
about bottom line. Again, retired police officer have an income
coming in. This doesn't put food on my table. So
it's one of those things I could be picky.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
So what are you doing here right now? You're taking
this class with me, aren't you?
Speaker 5 (09:38):
Yeah, come out to take the Jeff Cooper nineteen eleven class.
Nineteen eleven was actually the first handgun that ever fired.
Was in Marine Corps boot camp at Paris Island and
went to a fan course and they basically said, have
you ever fired a pistol before? When I got up
on the fire line that grew up in Brooklyn, New York, No,
(09:59):
we're never fired before, And that became my adopted pistol system.
So when I went when I got out of the
Marine Corps, actually went into executive security for two years
prior to being a policeman, and John Farnham was my
teacher at ESI. That's not as good as it gets,
(10:20):
and I had a cult combat elite and that was
my main carry pistol. And then when I went into
police work, we weren't carrying nineteen elevens. So I got
away from nineteen elevens for almost two decades and now
kind of always kind of loved the nineteen eleven system.
So this was the perfect class, the perfect timing it is.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
And when somebody asks you and they do, I know,
So what is it about the nineteen eleven that you
like so much? You know?
Speaker 5 (10:51):
The two systems that I really really like is the
nineteen eleven system in the Glock system for their simplicity.
You could the entire pistol down with no tools, and
the way it was designed, I mean thinking about John
Moses Browning in nineteen oh seven figuring this out right
(11:12):
and making the different advances in the different iterations of
the nineteen eleven where you could actually pop the firing
pin out to use it to take down the pistol,
the rim of the forty five acp brass, to take
off the side panels of the of the grip. It
(11:32):
was just well thought out to think about that over
one hundred years ago. Same simplicity with the glock about
the only the only advantage that I like about the
Glock system over the nineteen eleven. It's plug and play.
It's a mister potato head gun. You take a part,
you take off a bad part, you throw it away
and put into good works. Yes, there's no gunsmithing.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
But it's also a seventy five year later creation, if
you will.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Absolute like that. So yeah, we evolve. I appreciate. I'm
looking forward to spend some time with you this week.
We're going to be shooting a lot of guns, shooting
a lot of ammo.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
Tom. It'll be fun time, absolutely, it really will.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
All right, tell people about your website one more time.
Speaker 5 (12:11):
All right, it's DSM Safety. Just remember, don't shoot me
dsmsafety dot com and we'll keep you safe. It's one
of those things. It's like we're in a seatbelt. You
can drive thousands and thousands of miles without ever needing
a seatbelt, but the one time you need it, it'll
save your life.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
There you go, all right, don't go far, gun and talk.
I'll be right back.
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Speaker 4 (13:12):
Put all your.
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Speaker 5 (13:20):
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Speaker 4 (13:24):
What's it like to be blown up?
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Speaker 8 (13:35):
AJ you're really dating yourself by calling things crosshairs.
Speaker 5 (13:38):
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The LCPM Max Carry Light Live Ready. We're having so
much fun around here. I am Tom Gresham. This is
gun Talk.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Check it out gun talk dot com over on x
I am at gun Talk over there, talk with some
of our friends around here. We're at Gun Site Training
Academy out here. We're doing the Jeff Cooper two fifty class.
Two fifty is their introductory class. But it's a five
day class. People say, really five days for the introductory class. Yep,
it sure is. That's exactly what it is. So it
(15:51):
is a it's a fun thing. I think sometimes we
forget to mention how much fun it is. I mean,
you're learning a lot, and it's fun to learn, and
you come away honestly, I think you come away a
change person. But it's great fun. But in the meantime,
there are things happening throughout the week, and oh yeah,
coming up in just a few minutes, we're going to
have it's gonna be great.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
We're gonna have Katie Pavlich of.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Course, uh, top journalist, former Fox News contributor and actually
have guns like graduate. So we'll have Katie on here
as well. I did want to talk just a minute
about some things that are going on in the news.
You may have seen the story the United States Postal Service. Yeah,
the post Office. They're looking at revamping a century old
(16:36):
rule they have where you cannot mail handguns. Now if
you're an ffl if you're a gun store, you can
mail a handgun, but the rest of us cannot mail handguns.
We can mail long guns, we can mail rifles and shotguns.
But they're looking at changing that rule. This is another
Trump administration, one more thing that they're doing there, and
(16:58):
people are losing their minds. Oh my god, what if
they fell into the wrong hands, What if?
Speaker 4 (17:01):
What if?
Speaker 5 (17:02):
What if?
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Oh my heavenly days, We're already mailing ars. I can
mail in the United States, mail, I can mail an ar.
Why are we worried about the handguns? Well, let me
tell you what where this came from. If you go
back one hundred years ago, the gun ban lobby, the
gun ban industry was interested only in handguns. They weren't
(17:27):
talking about rifles or shotguns. Back then, they were talking about,
we've got to get rid of handguns. We've got to
do something about handguns. They were really, really worried about handguns,
and so we had all these regulations that had to
do with handguns. So I keep looking at and thinking, well,
why would anybody care if you could mail a rifle
or a shotgun. Why shouldn't you be able to mail
a handgun. Well, that's going to happen. I mean, they
(17:50):
just closed the comment period on that, and that is
definitely going to happen.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
So that's going to change.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Obviously, all the laws still apply in terms of selling
guns going across state lines else. I mean, there are
details to know about that, but all this means is
that the Post Office won't restrict you and say you
cannot mail a handgun. Two other things happened this week
that were very interesting, And of course we've had Harmeat
Dylan on the show here before, and she is the
(18:16):
Assistant US Attorney General in the Department of Justice. She's
in charge of the Civil Rights Division, and inside the
Civil Rights Division, they created a new section for the
Second Amendment. So there's a Second Amendment section inside the
Civil Rights Division. And she filed two lawsuits this week,
(18:37):
one suing Denver, the city of Denver, and one suing
the state of Colorado. In Denver, she's suing because they
have a ban on semi automatic rifles on AR fifteens,
if you will, and the Department of Justice, I mean,
I want you to listen up here, the Department of
Justice is saying, nope, that is a violation of the
(18:58):
Second Amendment.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
You can not ban the ownership of air fifteen's. Can't
do it.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
That's a gun that's in common use for lawful purposes,
and according to the Heller and Brewing decisions, you can't
ban them. And then they turn right around and sue
the entire state of Colorado, where they have a ban
on magazines that hold more than fifteen rounds.
Speaker 5 (19:21):
Same thing.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
These are arms.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Magazines are arms under the definition, and they're saying, no,
you can't ban those either. Well, this is a big deal.
All right, Hold on a second, I gotta do this
call thing. Okay, sorry about that. I told you I
was fighting the salary here, and so you're gonna have
a little time out from me now and then I'm
(19:45):
back with you. So the DOJ is saying to the
city of Denver and the state of Colorado, no, you
cannot ban these arms. Assuming this goes through, and assuming
they are successful with this, there are other states and
there are other cities that have banned various guns or
(20:07):
have magazine capacity limits. The idea, of course, is to
get rid of those now. Harmy Dillon, the Assistant US
Attorney General, has said, Look, the Supreme Court is going
to rule that it's perfectly legal to own ar fifteens.
She has said she predicted that Supreme Court is going
to remove all these bans on RS.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
I hope she's right. I actually think she's right.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
If you honestly, if you can read, you can read
the Heller decision where they said you cannot ban the
government cannot ban guns that are in common use for
lawful purposes. Now, the thing that gets twisted on that
is the Supreme Court said, they said you cannot ban
(20:58):
guns that are in common use for lawful purposes such
as self defense. That has gotten twisted by a number
of the states where they say, well, you can't. It
says you can't ban guns that are used for common
defense or for self defense. No, that's not what it says.
It says you can't ban guns that are in common
(21:19):
use for lawful purposes. And then it gives self defense
as one of the examples of number of other things
you could use a gun for lawfully. And so this
twisting of the Heller decision is where they're hanging their peg,
if you will. They're hanging their arguments on that. And
(21:40):
now you've got a harmy Dillon who's saying, no, that's
not gonna fly. We know it's not true. You know
it's not true. You're just getting away with it with
these state legislatures that want to ban these guns. Actually
they would like to ban all guns. And it's a
funny part as occasionally they will actually come out and
say that. I mean, was it Gabby Gifford said no
more guns? Says bottom line is no more guns. Really
(22:04):
you said the quiet part out loud, didn't you. Yeah,
that's true. All right, tell you what coming up, We're
going to have kaith Hats join us right here. Uh,
fascinating where I want to get a look at her
take on media bias versus media ignorance when it comes
to firearms. Is it willful or is it just that
(22:26):
don't know the difference. I'm Tom Gresham.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
This is gun Talk. Be right back, all right, we're
back with you. I'm Tom Gresham. This is gun talk.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Yeah, we're live or so. We're still over here having
a ball over at gun site. We've got people wandering
in and out, and you know we talked about being
to hot range. Everybody here walks by. Its carry the gun.
I love it and yep, I'm assuming they're all loaded
it because of or not Why wouldn't you carry it
in the first place.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
It'd be a silly thing, all right.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
So this is It sounds a little strange when you
say this is a special place, but it is. You know,
those who've been here, they understand that, and they get
that and it kind of changes you. And it's like,
oh wow, you become part of the Gunsite family. And
there's a person I really wanted to get in here
because she has been to Gunsite, she's been through the classes.
(23:19):
But she's also part of the national media. We're joining
right now by Katie Pavlich. She is an anchor on
News Nation. She's been a contributor, regular contributor on Fox News,
and of course at town Hall, was the editor for
many many years.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
Katie, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 11 (23:36):
Hey Ton, thanks so much for having me. It's great
to be on your show.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
I got a friend of your sitting right here and
he didn't think I was going to turn his mic on,
but I just did.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Hey buzzs Hey, Katie, II fuzz wow.
Speaker 11 (23:49):
A treat for me to have both of you. Awesome voice.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Buzz It's great to hear your voice.
Speaker 6 (23:56):
I was with the family yesterday, the in laws and
the Outlaws, and Tom's here today and you know he's
he talks about Godsite being a special place. Well, you know,
god Talk is a special place. I hope we find
out more about it.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Oh yeah, well I just had to. He wanted to
listen in. I said, well, you know, if you're going
to listen, I got open your mic for just a
minute to say hi.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
Anyway, you have that, all right, We're gonna let him
listen in here, Katie, I got to ask you a question.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
You've been in the media for well, if I can
see how long it starts to give away your age.
Speaker 11 (24:32):
I hate to do that to you, but that's okay,
it's okay.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
You've been doing this for h right out a couple
of decades.
Speaker 11 (24:40):
I would think, Yeah, I've been doing this for sixteen
years now, so quite a long time.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
So tell me about the new gig, the News Nation
gig you're doing.
Speaker 11 (24:51):
Yeah. So I moved over to Newsation in January. I
was at Fox for fifteen years and it was an
amazing experience, but it was time to grow and be
part of what was happening in Washington, d C. And
so every night now Monday through Friday, I have a
primetime show on News Nation at ten pm Eastern and
recovering you know, lots of different things happening in DC,
things happening outside of DC, and it's just an amazing
(25:15):
privileged opportunity to be able to do that. And I'm
having fun. I have a great team with the creative
process every day. Some days are more chaotic than others,
just depending on what's happening in the world. But it's
been really fun.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Isn't it great to have a job where you get
up excited and ready to go to work and just
can't wait.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
To go do it.
Speaker 11 (25:34):
Yeah, that's great. It means you're not working, right, that's
the thing. Don't work at any now. You'd love what
to do there.
Speaker 4 (25:40):
It is all right. You are, in fact a Gunsight graduate.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
If you would tell people what that means and how
it affects you the first time you go through the
classes here.
Speaker 11 (25:52):
Yeah, many years ago, Buzzmills invited me out to Gunsite
to take my first pistol to fifty class and I
I got out there and I was actually writing and
covering it for town Hall, and I did a package
for Sean Hannity's show to talk about you know, self
defense and that kind of thing. And it was amazing
to go through the class because not only have you become,
(26:14):
you know, trained in defensive pistol and you learn all
about the history of gunsite and it's importance to defensive
pistol training throughout the country, but also for me, it
was the mental aspect of it, being situationally aware, how
to set yourself up for success, how to avoid confrontation,
how to remain calm when a situation arises. You know,
(26:36):
assume that something can happen. We hope that it doesn't,
but it absolutely can. So I've loved taking that class,
worked really hard all day on the range, and then
came back to write the stories about what was happening
for the day, to try and teach the rest of
the country who would read my work about how the
importance of training, and most importantly that we have a
(27:00):
second Amendment and Americans should take it seriously and they
should learn how to defend themselves should the situation arise.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Okay, let's take that information. What you learned here, how
to operate under stress. You were just at the White
House correspondence dinner where you had all of that going
on with guns out and security running around and everything else.
You were to talk us through that mental aspect that
you had. I mean, everybody's seen what happened, they've seen
(27:28):
all the videos, but you're in the middle of that,
and I'm thinking, how does your gun site experience and training.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
Factor and all of that.
Speaker 11 (27:36):
It was so key in remaining calm and trying to
assess what was happening and understanding what was going on.
So we had been in the room. We got into
the room. There's probably three thousand people in this ballroom.
It's the Washington Hilton, which is the same place that
Ronald Reagan was shot actually many many years ago, and
(27:56):
so the president had just arrived and they shut down
all the doors so you can't get in and out
when he's in the room, and we all had just
sat down for dinner. We heard the shots because we
were closer to the door, and to me, they sounded
like they happened outside, but we weren't sure. And then
immediately people start diving under tables. There's a lot of
(28:17):
glass breakings, so there's a lot of noise happening because
of people's reactions, right, So you're trying not to mix
up what people's reaction is with an active situation. Then
you had a number of different cabinet officials there as well,
in addition to the secret service for the president and
the vice president. So there were details trying to get
throughout the room to grab their people. And that room
(28:38):
is packed so full that you can't even walk around
on a normal day, not to mention when everybody's on
the floor. So I did not dive on the floor
based on what I heard, and it stopped. There were
five shots and it was over. So I was thinking,
based on how many officers I saw upstairs with firearms,
(28:59):
that the thing was over. There wasn't a gunfight going on.
I didn't know if the guy had been shot dead.
I didn't know if he had been shot at all.
Turns out he wasn't, but there wasn't a gun fight happening,
and so once I realized you know that, and that
the person was not in the room, it was pretty
obvious that it was going to be fine.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
To me, well, and no, to your credit, you have
been through a lot of shots fired on the range.
You recognize shots. And you also said, okay, if they're
not shooting anymore, this thing's over.
Speaker 11 (29:31):
Yeah, it's it just as clear to me, just based
on the cadence and the consistency of the shots, it
sounded to me like there was a returning a fire
because of the consistency of the shot. It wasn't you know,
one shot here, one shot there. It seemed like it
was a professional for the most part doing it and
then it was over. So you know, I was in
(29:53):
the room so that you couldn't see that obviously from
the outside, but just based on my experience I've had,
as you mentioned, on the range and you know, the
classroom work at gun site many times over the years,
it was I was very grateful to have that because
it allowed me to just kind of remain calm and
not to panic in a situation like that, because a
(30:14):
lot of people understandably did because they haven't had that
kind of training.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
Well exactly, all right, let me switch on you, Hair.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
You've been in the national media for a long time now,
and you have this interesting background, which frankly, a lot
of people in the national media don't have. You know, guns,
you've been around guns, you you shoot guns, you own guns.
In your experience, and we see so many things that
the media general media gets wrong. And I always wonder
how much of it is a bias that they bring
(30:44):
to it, how much of it's just pure ignorance where
they just don't know anything.
Speaker 11 (30:50):
Well, it's three things. It's it's a combination of three
terrible things. A. The bias be they don't know anything
but think that they do, and see they don't play
on learning anything about it. I found that most people
who work in my field, at least on the East
Coast in New York City and Washington, DC, you know,
they don't have a real diversity of a background. They
(31:13):
don't gauge with the culture of America in the terms
of the Second Amendment. They you know, if they're from
New York, they have this idea that the only people
who own guns are gangsters in the Bronx or in
Queens or you know, people who are committing crimes. So
their perspective of firearms is a tainted one and a
very negative direction. And they've never taken the time to
(31:36):
go try and understand an issue that they happen to
cover all the time. And so I think that if
you're a media and you're a journalist and you don't
have experience with the topic or an issue, but you're
planning on covering it, even if you don't have a background,
extensive background like I do. You know, growing up with
guns as a kid and then going to gunsite, you
have an obligation to go learn more, to at least
(31:57):
engage and immerse yourself in a field for some period
of time to at least understand if you're going to be.
Speaker 5 (32:03):
Covering it on a.
Speaker 11 (32:06):
High level, especially when you're speaking to billions of people.
So unfortunately, they all love the First Amendment, which is fantastic,
but for some reason, they don't have much respect for
the Second Amendment. And I always say, look, I'm a
member of the White House Correspondence Association, which is allowed
because of the First Amendment, but I also am a
lifelong member of the NRA because of the Second Amendment,
(32:29):
and they go well together. As an American.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
It's funny you say that, because I was thinking about
the reaction. I've heard people in the media say I
don't need to know about that, and I thought that
is such an interesting and arrogant viewpoint.
Speaker 11 (32:45):
Yeah, it is. I don't quite understand that, especially if
you're someone who's supposed to be enlightening others, you should
want to know things about everything, especially a constitutional right
that is something that affects people's lives every single day,
and legislation is written all the time to impede on
(33:06):
that right, and so you should should at least know
more and talk to people who have more experience in
practice with it at the bare minimum.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
If you would. Katie in a little bit of time,
he got left here. It just addressed because I know
there are people who say, well, why do we care
how the media covers things?
Speaker 4 (33:25):
And I try to explain it.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Look, this is establishing a baseline of what the public,
with quotes around it, knows to be true, and that
baseline actually ends up informing and shaping public policy.
Speaker 11 (33:38):
Right one hundred percent. Yes, I used to hope that
the media didn't have as much influence as it does
on policymaking and the way legislation is written, but it
absolutely has a huge impact. And I always say, you know, look,
the first draft of history is written by journalists, people
(33:58):
in the media of American histy, and unfortunately most of
the people working in those jobs don't really love America
very much. So the same kind of thing can be
applied to the Second Amendment, and these issues. You have
to have people who understand the issue in order to
protect the right because it's under attack constantly by people
(34:21):
in power. And the media does have a lot of influence,
especially in Washington, and now you know that that we
have social media and people with big followings that kind
of thing. It absolutely has an impact and can change
the way that things are written or the way things
maybe don't go through as a result. So you know,
(34:41):
you can say that doesn't matter, but we need more
people out there to talk about the Second Amendment because
it absolutely does matter, and a lot of people talking
about it now either don't like it or they're ignorant
of it.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Well, and then there are those who simply have an agenda.
They don't mind lying about it that too.
Speaker 11 (35:01):
Yeah, they call them to the journalists, but they're actually activists.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
So and then you've got that weird thing of Michael
Bloomberg's PR firm, which is called the Trace, who builds
themselves as a news organization, but they're really just paid
propagandas for the gun band lobby.
Speaker 11 (35:19):
Well, and that's the thing too, is you look at
who these media reporters and media who they're quoting, right,
they quote groups like that as as supposed experts. They
they use Moms Demand studies, for example, to push out
into their news stories as if they are facts. So
they're using sources that are actively working against the Second
(35:42):
Amendment every single day to shape public policy and to
shape opinion about the Second Amendment and gun ownership that
is completely tainted and run by these these organizations that
the media simply uses and doesn't get, you know, the
other side of the story. They oftentimes vilify the NRA,
they vilify Second Amendment advocates, they vilify gun owners, and
(36:06):
they set up the narrative as if those groups that
are anti are the ones who are the authority on
the issue, when we both know that lots of times
they put out false data, they put out false narratives,
and they themselves don't have enough information about what's actually
going on.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Well, they're trying to set up a baseline of, if
you will, what the science is. And I am convinced
at this point, Katie, to throw this out for you
to consider and to maybe go forward with it, that
I think there's an active effort to seed AI models
with this bias, hoping that when people come back in
and they do this study. Later on, they'll say, well,
(36:43):
obviously this is all true because it's what AI is returning,
and I think that's.
Speaker 4 (36:46):
Going on right now.
Speaker 11 (36:48):
It is because AI just scrapes what's already out there, right, So,
when you have mountains and mountains of false propaganda that's
anti Second Amendment, AI just takes that and spit back
out at fact, which is clearly you know, it's garbage
and garbage out kind of thing. So I know that
(37:09):
Elon Musk is working on his AI not to operate
that way, but generally, you know, the Silicon Valley types,
the tech titans, they're more than happy with having an
anti Second Amendment stance in their AI models and calling
it fact.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
No exactly, You are right, all right? Can tell people
where they can catch up with you and find out
more about what you're doing.
Speaker 11 (37:30):
Well, first, you can watch my show News Nation Monday
through Friday, ten pm Eastern. Would love to have you there.
And then you can follow me on Instagram at Katie
Pavlich and you can also follow me on X so
that is basically where you can find me. And you
can find me at gun site in October for the
big anniversary we have for the gas match, So looking
forward to seeing everybody there.
Speaker 4 (37:50):
You're going to be at the gas match for the
fiftieth year anniversary.
Speaker 11 (37:53):
Absolutely, I'm the back to back shoot house champ. I
got to show up what.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
You've been. You're the shootouse champ.
Speaker 11 (38:02):
Yeah for the women got a dog?
Speaker 8 (38:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (38:06):
Do you ever? Do you ever get to practice now?
Or where do you live?
Speaker 11 (38:10):
Not as much as I should, but I do try
to get to the range to keep myself fresh. I
know it's as Ken always says, it's a perishable skill.
So yes, I know. Thank you there it is.
Speaker 4 (38:20):
Katie, Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to have
you here. We'll get you back on sometime.
Speaker 11 (38:24):
All right, talk to you guys soon. Thank you, all right?
Speaker 4 (38:27):
Do you take care? Yeah? Kay Pavlich, what a joy?
That was fun.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
We had Ken walking in here and she's quoting can't
just so you know, Katie's talking about you over here,
so just letting you know. Yeah, I know again, right,
just right, everybody does. Kn's line, of course is you
know Winter, are you coming to gunsite? And it's true,
whatever it is. I was going to ask her that,
but then she filled it in. She's going to be
here for the gas match. Gas is gun a gun
Site alumni shoot. In case you don't know, you have to.
(38:52):
If there's prerequisites, you have to have been through at
least a three day pistol class at gun Site before
you can get in here, and then you become part
of the gun fite family. I know it sounds corny
and it sounds goofy, but it's true. And if you've
been here, you understand. If you got a raven on
the back of your car, there are only a few
people will know what that is. But the ones who do,
(39:12):
you're gonna go, yeah, yeah, we're part of this together.
There you go, Hey, don't go far. We'll be right
back with more to gun talk. I am Tom Gresham. Yeah,
we're still talking about guns around here. What else are
you gonna do? We're at gun Sight. We're talking with
(39:32):
Buzz who owns guns gun Site. We've got good ken over.
He wo's the CEO. Got my friend Bob Shimazoo, who
is like taking out every class you can take over here,
actually came down. He's gonna take the class. We're gonna
take the class together. It's gonna stay with me. That
doesn't sound right. We're taking the class together shooting old
guns and old holsters with old sites cause the old guys.
Speaker 4 (39:51):
So there you go, that's what we do. Something happened
in Florida this week that I wanted to address.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
It was interesting, and I think it's a chance for
USh revisit what constitutes effective activism. There's a major I
guess the major grocery store in Florida's publics, Publix.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
Big big chain.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
And when they got constitutional carry there and got open
carry was legalized in Florida several years ago, a number
of the stores in the state, outlets decided they would
block that put up signs no open carry public says,
now we're going to allow that's not a problem. Well,
then this past week they put out word put out
signs that says we're going to ask patrons not to
(40:37):
open carry. Only law enforcement could open carry in publics.
And Lee Williams, who's known as the Gun Writer, was
writing about that. I said, Lee, he's down in Florida,
said let me explain to you an activism effort that
I have done in the past that I found to
be very effective because you got to find where the
leverage is, what's important to the people running publics only
(41:00):
one thing profit. This the only thing that matters, not
public opinion unless it affects profit. So this is real simple.
You and a thousand of your friends go shopping, get
their competitors, and every week when you go shop and
get the competitors, you take a picture of your receipt
of how much you spend at their competitor, and you
(41:22):
send an email with a picture of that receipt to
the CEO and to the chairman of the board, people
who are responsible for the bottom line, and you say,
I am no longer shopping at publics because of your policy,
your anti Second Amendment or anti constitutional policy there. If, however,
(41:43):
you change your policy, I will be happy to come
back and spend my money with your store. It's not
being mean, it's not being nasty. It's just you made
me unwelcome there, and I'm spending my money somewhere else.
If one person does it, it's ignorable. If ten people
do it, it's still ignorable. If one hundred people do it,
(42:03):
they go what's going on? But if a thousand people
do it, and they're getting a thousand emails a week
for people who say I'm not spending money at your store,
I'm spending it with your competitor because of this. It's
that's a lot of money. That's a lot of money
that's not flowing to the bottom line. And if you
have somebody like you get a statewide gun owners organization
(42:27):
and all the members, let's say it's ten thousand people
doing that, it will not be ignored because there's only
one reason that that company exists, and there's only one
reason that there's a CEO and a chairman of the
board and a board of directors, and it's to make money,
to turn a profit. And turning a profit is a
(42:48):
good American thing. It's always say that the number one
obligation that a company has to its customers is to
make a profit.
Speaker 4 (42:56):
And people go, what are you talking about it?
Speaker 3 (42:57):
So, well, you if they're not making profit, they're not
going to be there to continue to service their customers.
So you've got to make a profit, and that's how
you take care of your customers. In this case, you
simply say, you know, I'm simply not spending money with
you anymore, and neither of my friends, as you can
see from the thousands of emails you're getting every week
(43:19):
with a not just I'm saying this, but oh no,
here's a copy of the receipt. This is how much
I didn't spend with you this week. I will guarantee
you it will have an impact. I have used this
before on several companies, several national companies, and they have
all reversed their policy.
Speaker 4 (43:38):
So there you go.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
If you were in Florida, jump on this, start working
on this, get together with your friends, get your state
organization involved.
Speaker 4 (43:46):
Let's see if we can get this thing turned around.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
Don't have to be nasty about it, but you do
have to be committed, and that becomes being effective.
Speaker 4 (43:55):
All right, we'll be right back with more gun talk
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Speaker 3 (00:29):
We're still having fun around here. I'm Tom Gresham. This
is gun Talk. Yeah, we're doing live broadcast to day remote.
We're up in I don't know central north central Arizona,
where near Paulton it is. We're actually I guess you
could call it the ground Central if you would. For
defensive firearms training in the US. Its gun Site is
the place that was founded by Jeff Cooper. Today would
(00:51):
be the one hundred and sixth birthday of Colonel Jeff Cooper,
and we're in the fiftieth year of Gunsite celebrating all
sorts of fun things. Of course, it's Mother's day as well.
I may have a mother's story for you here. As
we go along, and we are visiting with a bunch
of our friends and people that we are new friends with,
because everybody you meet at gunsight is your instant friend
(01:12):
because you have shared values, shared experiences.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
The ratio of jerks here is really really small.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
It's what you find. What do they say, an armed
society is a polite society. Thank you, Robert Heinman. All right,
so we are joining right now by Mike Lessman. And Mike,
you got DSM safety products, and you were telling me
during the break that we actually talked four years ago
something like that.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
I mean I kind of barely remember that.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
Probably about five four or five years ago you'd called me.
I was in my office and we talked about DSM
and you said, why don't you make a CCW one.
I kind of explain that. Well, the CCW public kind
of didn't get it at the time.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
All right, Well, first of all, you got what the
product is because we had to tell people because a
lot of people don't know what we're talking about here.
Speaker 5 (02:04):
Well, the DSM safety banner. I was a marine before
I was a policeman, and so things have to be
really simple with me. DSM stands for don't shoot Me.
Speaker 6 (02:12):
What it is.
Speaker 5 (02:13):
It's a critical incident identification system that looks very much
like a beauty queen sash. We've been coined that before, okay,
but it's very effective at good way of explaining it, Yeah,
very effective at identifying a person during a critical incident,
so you don't have friendly fire issues.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
The idea being that if say, if I were consier
carrying and a shooting broke out somewhere and I pulled
my gun out and either did or did not dispatch
the bad guy. Either way, I got a gun out
in the middle of this thing, and the cop show
up and all they know is that people are getting shot,
and they see a guy carrying a gun, right and
I'm that guy carrying a gun. They can't see my
halo from back there where theyrever they are. So this
(02:53):
is a way that I would pull this thing over
my head and it says basically, it's whatever the verbiage is,
but it's basically, they don't shoot me, sad.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
Basically, Yeah. The verbiage could either be anything from a
school guardian to a church safety team that says safety
on it, to a security officer of an executive protection team,
to a law enforcement officer where it says police or
sheriff too. Because of Liosa, it could also say police
(03:22):
was retired off top of it.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Okay, sure, Now, we just saw some of these being used.
I mean, just two weeks ago in the news from
the White House Correspondence dinner, we saw there were security
or officers actually flipped these things up.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
Were they your product? They were using?
Speaker 5 (03:36):
They were I believe that was US Capitol Police that
was doing a protective detail for the Senate whip h.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Okay, well, and they were very effective because when you
looked at the music, yep, that is my first thought is, well,
that's a cop.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Well, which is true.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
It's a cop of some former fashion and somebody involved
in law enforcement, if you will.
Speaker 5 (03:59):
It's the good guy banner right. Well, and what's pretty funny.
I just had a conversation with kind of a non
believer who said, well, you didn't really need that. You
knew who everybody was. And you know, on one of
the pictures there was a guy in a like a
Hawaiian type of shirt by the elevator that had no markings,
no lanyards. I mean you could tell like the Secret
(04:21):
Service guys had like red lanyards, right, but he had
no markings whatsoever. And I was like, all right, tell
me who that guy is. Tell me if you had
a way.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
And shirt with a gun, are we supposed shoot him
or not?
Speaker 5 (04:34):
Exactly?
Speaker 4 (04:35):
That really is what?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
All right, So let's go back to this conversation that
you and I had five years ago now and what
transpired out of that, Well, what ends.
Speaker 5 (04:42):
Up happening was when we originally came out with it,
I was still working at the at my police department,
and we had both. We didn't know which way would
take off. We didn't know whether law enforcement and security
would adapt it, or whether the CCW world would adapt
it or both. And the law enforcement world and security
world just took off. I mean we sell them all
(05:04):
over the world now, I mean we outfit cities in Germany,
citizen in Switzerland, all of the Netherlands, so the Dutch
National Police used them, all of Australia. So it really
has gone worldwide. But what your challenge? And then the
Aravada incident that occurred shortly after that, where a good
(05:26):
guy sees a bad guy shoot a policeman. He ends
up shooting the bad guy and then for some reason
we'll never know why. Goes to clear the bad guy's AR.
Police see him again, came out.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
They shoot the good guy because you a carry guy.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
Yes, And that kind of motivated me to rethink my
stance on that. And so we had started a different
version of the safety banner call the ACID system, and
it's ACID spelled with two c's two eyes, so it's
Armed Citizen, Critical Incident ID. It's about the size one.
(06:05):
It's all folded up. It's about the size of your smartphone, okay,
and it deploys out. It's all black on the exterior,
bright hunter orange on the interior, and it says armed citizen.
And we had started a second company with that. Recently
we've collapsed that company and ACID is going to be
part of DSM as just another product.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
My think, I'm just thinking about how this AR works
and you get into a situation you pulled this out
and you got a sash on, you got this thing on.
It's got some writing on it and it he just
says police or security or whatever. Generally, I'm just thinking,
you've gone through all the training and you've been a
police officer. People are probably not so much reading the
(06:50):
text on there as they are simply seeing this and
it buys you a few seconds.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
It's a micro speed bump into oodle loop, if you will. Basically,
it's just a tap on the brakes, just you know,
see the gun. What is that? What you know? It's
you know. And we picked colors that are ANTSI certified,
so that I mean, unless you're at a highway workers
convention or a cyclist convention, normal people don't wear these colors.
(07:20):
We've had agencies come to me and say we want blue.
Blue is police color. However, the problem is is when
you're people wear blue. People wear blue. It's a common
associated color, all different shades of blue. And so we
were like, no, we ANTSI did their study for a reason,
and we want to stay with why reinvent the wheel.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
You're telling them that actually won't be effective. It's not
what you think it's going to be, right, it won't
be recognized. Okay, So what does the thing cost and
who can get it and how do they go about it?
Speaker 5 (07:49):
On the ASCID system right now, cost is forty five
ninety nine apiece. You could go to dsmsafety dot com
or you can call me and my number seven seven
five two five zero five five two three, and we
can get you set up with that gun site right
(08:10):
here has the acid system in their pro shop. Yeah,
and so we were out here with with that. And
if you're belowng to a either law enforcement organization, a
security team, or a safety team DSM safety dot com,
we got you all covered with that. Uh, we vet
because it's a very reasonable question, Hey, how do we
(08:32):
stop bad guys from getting these? When I first started
the company, that was a tenant of the of the
company was it's about keeping people alive, not bottom line.
And so if you get on on our website and
order let's say a security one, and you're shipping it
(08:54):
to your hometom, we google every address that comes through
and we see it's a residential atta. So you're going
to get an email from us to say, hey, where
do you provide security at, whether paid or voluntarily, and
you respond back to me, you know, first Baptist Church
in Salem, Oregon. We will actually call the first Baptist
Church in Salem and go, hey, do you know Tom
(09:16):
is Tom Freshman part of your security team? And then
we vet it from there. It takes us an extra step,
you know, let you sleep better at night. It's not
about bottom line. Again, retired police officer have an income
coming in. This doesn't put food on my table. So
it's one of those things I could be picky.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
So what are you doing here right now? You're taking
this class with me, aren't you?
Speaker 5 (09:38):
Yeah, come out to take the Jeff Cooper nineteen eleven class.
Nineteen eleven was actually the first handgun that ever fired.
Was in Marine Corps boot camp at Paris Island and
went to a fan course and they basically said, have
you ever fired a pistol before? When I got up
on the fire line that grew up in Brooklyn, New York, No,
(09:59):
we're never fired before, And that became my adopted pistol system.
So when I went when I got out of the
Marine Corps, actually went into executive security for two years
prior to being a policeman, and John Farnham was my
teacher at ESI. That's not as good as it gets,
(10:20):
and I had a cult combat elite and that was
my main carry pistol. And then when I went into
police work, we weren't carrying nineteen elevens. So I got
away from nineteen elevens for almost two decades and now
kind of always kind of loved the nineteen eleven system.
So this was the perfect class, the perfect timing it is.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
And when somebody asks you and they do, I know,
So what is it about the nineteen eleven that you
like so much? You know?
Speaker 5 (10:51):
The two systems that I really really like is the
nineteen eleven system in the Glock system for their simplicity.
You could the entire pistol down with no tools, and
the way it was designed, I mean thinking about John
Moses Browning in nineteen oh seven figuring this out right
(11:12):
and making the different advances in the different iterations of
the nineteen eleven where you could actually pop the firing
pin out to use it to take down the pistol,
the rim of the forty five acp brass, to take
off the side panels of the of the grip. It
(11:32):
was just well thought out to think about that over
one hundred years ago. Same simplicity with the glock about
the only the only advantage that I like about the
Glock system over the nineteen eleven. It's plug and play.
It's a mister potato head gun. You take a part,
you take off a bad part, you throw it away
and put into good works. Yes, there's no gunsmithing.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
But it's also a seventy five year later creation, if
you will.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Absolute like that. So yeah, we evolve. I appreciate. I'm
looking forward to spend some time with you this week.
We're going to be shooting a lot of guns, shooting
a lot of ammo.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
Tom. It'll be fun time, absolutely, it really will.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
All right, tell people about your website one more time.
Speaker 5 (12:11):
All right, it's DSM Safety. Just remember, don't shoot me
dsmsafety dot com and we'll keep you safe. It's one
of those things. It's like we're in a seatbelt. You
can drive thousands and thousands of miles without ever needing
a seatbelt, but the one time you need it, it'll
save your life.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
There you go, all right, don't go far, gun and talk.
I'll be right back.
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Put all your.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Gear on that you carry and then roll around on
the ground. Now, get up all your gear that's on
the ground. That's what you're not going to have in
a fight.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
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Speaker 4 (13:24):
What's it like to be blown up?
Speaker 5 (13:26):
You know, if it's like C four, it's almost like
a smack hunting. Yeah, we talk about that too. On
your crosshairs, I like a thin crosshair.
Speaker 8 (13:35):
AJ you're really dating yourself by calling things crosshairs.
Speaker 5 (13:38):
You're redical whatever. Have some fun and stay informed with
the gun Talk podcast.
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The LCPM Max Carry Light Live Ready. We're having so
much fun around here. I am Tom Gresham. This is
gun Talk.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Check it out gun talk dot com over on x
I am at gun Talk over there, talk with some
of our friends around here. We're at Gun Site Training
Academy out here. We're doing the Jeff Cooper two fifty class.
Two fifty is their introductory class. But it's a five
day class. People say, really five days for the introductory class. Yep,
it sure is. That's exactly what it is. So it
(15:51):
is a it's a fun thing. I think sometimes we
forget to mention how much fun it is. I mean,
you're learning a lot, and it's fun to learn, and
you come away honestly, I think you come away a
change person. But it's great fun. But in the meantime,
there are things happening throughout the week, and oh yeah,
coming up in just a few minutes, we're going to
have it's gonna be great.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
We're gonna have Katie Pavlich of.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Course, uh, top journalist, former Fox News contributor and actually
have guns like graduate. So we'll have Katie on here
as well. I did want to talk just a minute
about some things that are going on in the news.
You may have seen the story the United States Postal Service. Yeah,
the post Office. They're looking at revamping a century old
(16:36):
rule they have where you cannot mail handguns. Now if
you're an ffl if you're a gun store, you can
mail a handgun, but the rest of us cannot mail handguns.
We can mail long guns, we can mail rifles and shotguns.
But they're looking at changing that rule. This is another
Trump administration, one more thing that they're doing there, and
(16:58):
people are losing their minds. Oh my god, what if
they fell into the wrong hands, What if?
Speaker 4 (17:01):
What if?
Speaker 5 (17:02):
What if?
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Oh my heavenly days, We're already mailing ars. I can
mail in the United States, mail, I can mail an ar.
Why are we worried about the handguns? Well, let me
tell you what where this came from. If you go
back one hundred years ago, the gun ban lobby, the
gun ban industry was interested only in handguns. They weren't
(17:27):
talking about rifles or shotguns. Back then, they were talking about,
we've got to get rid of handguns. We've got to
do something about handguns. They were really, really worried about handguns,
and so we had all these regulations that had to
do with handguns. So I keep looking at and thinking, well,
why would anybody care if you could mail a rifle
or a shotgun. Why shouldn't you be able to mail
a handgun. Well, that's going to happen. I mean, they
(17:50):
just closed the comment period on that, and that is
definitely going to happen.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
So that's going to change.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Obviously, all the laws still apply in terms of selling
guns going across state lines else. I mean, there are
details to know about that, but all this means is
that the Post Office won't restrict you and say you
cannot mail a handgun. Two other things happened this week
that were very interesting, And of course we've had Harmeat
Dylan on the show here before, and she is the
(18:16):
Assistant US Attorney General in the Department of Justice. She's
in charge of the Civil Rights Division, and inside the
Civil Rights Division, they created a new section for the
Second Amendment. So there's a Second Amendment section inside the
Civil Rights Division. And she filed two lawsuits this week,
(18:37):
one suing Denver, the city of Denver, and one suing
the state of Colorado. In Denver, she's suing because they
have a ban on semi automatic rifles on AR fifteens,
if you will, and the Department of Justice, I mean,
I want you to listen up here, the Department of
Justice is saying, nope, that is a violation of the
(18:58):
Second Amendment.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
You can not ban the ownership of air fifteen's. Can't
do it.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
That's a gun that's in common use for lawful purposes,
and according to the Heller and Brewing decisions, you can't
ban them. And then they turn right around and sue
the entire state of Colorado, where they have a ban
on magazines that hold more than fifteen rounds.
Speaker 5 (19:21):
Same thing.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
These are arms.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Magazines are arms under the definition, and they're saying, no,
you can't ban those either. Well, this is a big deal.
All right, Hold on a second, I gotta do this
call thing. Okay, sorry about that. I told you I
was fighting the salary here, and so you're gonna have
a little time out from me now and then I'm
(19:45):
back with you. So the DOJ is saying to the
city of Denver and the state of Colorado, no, you
cannot ban these arms. Assuming this goes through, and assuming
they are successful with this, there are other states and
there are other cities that have banned various guns or
(20:07):
have magazine capacity limits. The idea, of course, is to
get rid of those now. Harmy Dillon, the Assistant US
Attorney General, has said, Look, the Supreme Court is going
to rule that it's perfectly legal to own ar fifteens.
She has said she predicted that Supreme Court is going
to remove all these bans on RS.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
I hope she's right. I actually think she's right.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
If you honestly, if you can read, you can read
the Heller decision where they said you cannot ban the
government cannot ban guns that are in common use for
lawful purposes. Now, the thing that gets twisted on that
is the Supreme Court said, they said you cannot ban
(20:58):
guns that are in common use for lawful purposes such
as self defense. That has gotten twisted by a number
of the states where they say, well, you can't. It
says you can't ban guns that are used for common
defense or for self defense. No, that's not what it says.
It says you can't ban guns that are in common
(21:19):
use for lawful purposes. And then it gives self defense
as one of the examples of number of other things
you could use a gun for lawfully. And so this
twisting of the Heller decision is where they're hanging their peg,
if you will. They're hanging their arguments on that. And
(21:40):
now you've got a harmy Dillon who's saying, no, that's
not gonna fly. We know it's not true. You know
it's not true. You're just getting away with it with
these state legislatures that want to ban these guns. Actually
they would like to ban all guns. And it's a
funny part as occasionally they will actually come out and
say that. I mean, was it Gabby Gifford said no
more guns? Says bottom line is no more guns. Really
(22:04):
you said the quiet part out loud, didn't you. Yeah,
that's true. All right, tell you what coming up, We're
going to have kaith Hats join us right here. Uh,
fascinating where I want to get a look at her
take on media bias versus media ignorance when it comes
to firearms. Is it willful or is it just that
(22:26):
don't know the difference. I'm Tom Gresham.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
This is gun Talk. Be right back, all right, we're
back with you. I'm Tom Gresham. This is gun talk.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Yeah, we're live or so. We're still over here having
a ball over at gun site. We've got people wandering
in and out, and you know we talked about being
to hot range. Everybody here walks by. Its carry the gun.
I love it and yep, I'm assuming they're all loaded
it because of or not Why wouldn't you carry it
in the first place.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
It'd be a silly thing, all right.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
So this is It sounds a little strange when you
say this is a special place, but it is. You know,
those who've been here, they understand that, and they get
that and it kind of changes you. And it's like,
oh wow, you become part of the Gunsite family. And
there's a person I really wanted to get in here
because she has been to Gunsite, she's been through the classes.
(23:19):
But she's also part of the national media. We're joining
right now by Katie Pavlich. She is an anchor on
News Nation. She's been a contributor, regular contributor on Fox News,
and of course at town Hall, was the editor for
many many years.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
Katie, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 11 (23:36):
Hey Ton, thanks so much for having me. It's great
to be on your show.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
I got a friend of your sitting right here and
he didn't think I was going to turn his mic on,
but I just did.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Hey buzzs Hey, Katie, II fuzz wow.
Speaker 11 (23:49):
A treat for me to have both of you. Awesome voice.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Buzz It's great to hear your voice.
Speaker 6 (23:56):
I was with the family yesterday, the in laws and
the Outlaws, and Tom's here today and you know he's
he talks about Godsite being a special place. Well, you know,
god Talk is a special place. I hope we find
out more about it.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Oh yeah, well I just had to. He wanted to
listen in. I said, well, you know, if you're going
to listen, I got open your mic for just a
minute to say hi.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
Anyway, you have that, all right, We're gonna let him
listen in here, Katie, I got to ask you a question.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
You've been in the media for well, if I can
see how long it starts to give away your age.
Speaker 11 (24:32):
I hate to do that to you, but that's okay,
it's okay.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
You've been doing this for h right out a couple
of decades.
Speaker 11 (24:40):
I would think, Yeah, I've been doing this for sixteen
years now, so quite a long time.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
So tell me about the new gig, the News Nation
gig you're doing.
Speaker 11 (24:51):
Yeah. So I moved over to Newsation in January. I
was at Fox for fifteen years and it was an
amazing experience, but it was time to grow and be
part of what was happening in Washington, d C. And
so every night now Monday through Friday, I have a
primetime show on News Nation at ten pm Eastern and
recovering you know, lots of different things happening in DC,
things happening outside of DC, and it's just an amazing
(25:15):
privileged opportunity to be able to do that. And I'm
having fun. I have a great team with the creative
process every day. Some days are more chaotic than others,
just depending on what's happening in the world. But it's
been really fun.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Isn't it great to have a job where you get
up excited and ready to go to work and just
can't wait.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
To go do it.
Speaker 11 (25:34):
Yeah, that's great. It means you're not working, right, that's
the thing. Don't work at any now. You'd love what
to do there.
Speaker 4 (25:40):
It is all right. You are, in fact a Gunsight graduate.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
If you would tell people what that means and how
it affects you the first time you go through the
classes here.
Speaker 11 (25:52):
Yeah, many years ago, Buzzmills invited me out to Gunsite
to take my first pistol to fifty class and I
I got out there and I was actually writing and
covering it for town Hall, and I did a package
for Sean Hannity's show to talk about you know, self
defense and that kind of thing. And it was amazing
to go through the class because not only have you become,
(26:14):
you know, trained in defensive pistol and you learn all
about the history of gunsite and it's importance to defensive
pistol training throughout the country, but also for me, it
was the mental aspect of it, being situationally aware, how
to set yourself up for success, how to avoid confrontation,
how to remain calm when a situation arises. You know,
(26:36):
assume that something can happen. We hope that it doesn't,
but it absolutely can. So I've loved taking that class,
worked really hard all day on the range, and then
came back to write the stories about what was happening
for the day, to try and teach the rest of
the country who would read my work about how the
importance of training, and most importantly that we have a
(27:00):
second Amendment and Americans should take it seriously and they
should learn how to defend themselves should the situation arise.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Okay, let's take that information. What you learned here, how
to operate under stress. You were just at the White
House correspondence dinner where you had all of that going
on with guns out and security running around and everything else.
You were to talk us through that mental aspect that
you had. I mean, everybody's seen what happened, they've seen
(27:28):
all the videos, but you're in the middle of that,
and I'm thinking, how does your gun site experience and training.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
Factor and all of that.
Speaker 11 (27:36):
It was so key in remaining calm and trying to
assess what was happening and understanding what was going on.
So we had been in the room. We got into
the room. There's probably three thousand people in this ballroom.
It's the Washington Hilton, which is the same place that
Ronald Reagan was shot actually many many years ago, and
(27:56):
so the president had just arrived and they shut down
all the doors so you can't get in and out
when he's in the room, and we all had just
sat down for dinner. We heard the shots because we
were closer to the door, and to me, they sounded
like they happened outside, but we weren't sure. And then
immediately people start diving under tables. There's a lot of
(28:17):
glass breakings, so there's a lot of noise happening because
of people's reactions, right, So you're trying not to mix
up what people's reaction is with an active situation. Then
you had a number of different cabinet officials there as well,
in addition to the secret service for the president and
the vice president. So there were details trying to get
throughout the room to grab their people. And that room
(28:38):
is packed so full that you can't even walk around
on a normal day, not to mention when everybody's on
the floor. So I did not dive on the floor
based on what I heard, and it stopped. There were
five shots and it was over. So I was thinking,
based on how many officers I saw upstairs with firearms,
(28:59):
that the thing was over. There wasn't a gunfight going on.
I didn't know if the guy had been shot dead.
I didn't know if he had been shot at all.
Turns out he wasn't, but there wasn't a gun fight happening,
and so once I realized you know that, and that
the person was not in the room, it was pretty
obvious that it was going to be fine.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
To me, well, and no, to your credit, you have
been through a lot of shots fired on the range.
You recognize shots. And you also said, okay, if they're
not shooting anymore, this thing's over.
Speaker 11 (29:31):
Yeah, it's it just as clear to me, just based
on the cadence and the consistency of the shots, it
sounded to me like there was a returning a fire
because of the consistency of the shot. It wasn't you know,
one shot here, one shot there. It seemed like it
was a professional for the most part doing it and
then it was over. So you know, I was in
(29:53):
the room so that you couldn't see that obviously from
the outside, but just based on my experience I've had,
as you mentioned, on the range and you know, the
classroom work at gun site many times over the years,
it was I was very grateful to have that because
it allowed me to just kind of remain calm and
not to panic in a situation like that, because a
(30:14):
lot of people understandably did because they haven't had that
kind of training.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
Well exactly, all right, let me switch on you, Hair.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
You've been in the national media for a long time now,
and you have this interesting background, which frankly, a lot
of people in the national media don't have. You know, guns,
you've been around guns, you you shoot guns, you own guns.
In your experience, and we see so many things that
the media general media gets wrong. And I always wonder
how much of it is a bias that they bring
(30:44):
to it, how much of it's just pure ignorance where
they just don't know anything.
Speaker 11 (30:50):
Well, it's three things. It's it's a combination of three
terrible things. A. The bias be they don't know anything
but think that they do, and see they don't play
on learning anything about it. I found that most people
who work in my field, at least on the East
Coast in New York City and Washington, DC, you know,
they don't have a real diversity of a background. They
(31:13):
don't gauge with the culture of America in the terms
of the Second Amendment. They you know, if they're from
New York, they have this idea that the only people
who own guns are gangsters in the Bronx or in
Queens or you know, people who are committing crimes. So
their perspective of firearms is a tainted one and a
very negative direction. And they've never taken the time to
(31:36):
go try and understand an issue that they happen to
cover all the time. And so I think that if
you're a media and you're a journalist and you don't
have experience with the topic or an issue, but you're
planning on covering it, even if you don't have a background,
extensive background like I do. You know, growing up with
guns as a kid and then going to gunsite, you
have an obligation to go learn more, to at least
(31:57):
engage and immerse yourself in a field for some period
of time to at least understand if you're going to be.
Speaker 5 (32:03):
Covering it on a.
Speaker 11 (32:06):
High level, especially when you're speaking to billions of people.
So unfortunately, they all love the First Amendment, which is fantastic,
but for some reason, they don't have much respect for
the Second Amendment. And I always say, look, I'm a
member of the White House Correspondence Association, which is allowed
because of the First Amendment, but I also am a
lifelong member of the NRA because of the Second Amendment,
(32:29):
and they go well together. As an American.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
It's funny you say that, because I was thinking about
the reaction. I've heard people in the media say I
don't need to know about that, and I thought that
is such an interesting and arrogant viewpoint.
Speaker 11 (32:45):
Yeah, it is. I don't quite understand that, especially if
you're someone who's supposed to be enlightening others, you should
want to know things about everything, especially a constitutional right
that is something that affects people's lives every single day,
and legislation is written all the time to impede on
(33:06):
that right, and so you should should at least know
more and talk to people who have more experience in
practice with it at the bare minimum.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
If you would. Katie in a little bit of time,
he got left here. It just addressed because I know
there are people who say, well, why do we care
how the media covers things?
Speaker 4 (33:25):
And I try to explain it.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Look, this is establishing a baseline of what the public,
with quotes around it, knows to be true, and that
baseline actually ends up informing and shaping public policy.
Speaker 11 (33:38):
Right one hundred percent. Yes, I used to hope that
the media didn't have as much influence as it does
on policymaking and the way legislation is written, but it
absolutely has a huge impact. And I always say, you know, look,
the first draft of history is written by journalists, people
(33:58):
in the media of American histy, and unfortunately most of
the people working in those jobs don't really love America
very much. So the same kind of thing can be
applied to the Second Amendment, and these issues. You have
to have people who understand the issue in order to
protect the right because it's under attack constantly by people
(34:21):
in power. And the media does have a lot of influence,
especially in Washington, and now you know that that we
have social media and people with big followings that kind
of thing. It absolutely has an impact and can change
the way that things are written or the way things
maybe don't go through as a result. So you know,
(34:41):
you can say that doesn't matter, but we need more
people out there to talk about the Second Amendment because
it absolutely does matter, and a lot of people talking
about it now either don't like it or they're ignorant
of it.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Well, and then there are those who simply have an agenda.
They don't mind lying about it that too.
Speaker 11 (35:01):
Yeah, they call them to the journalists, but they're actually activists.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
So and then you've got that weird thing of Michael
Bloomberg's PR firm, which is called the Trace, who builds
themselves as a news organization, but they're really just paid
propagandas for the gun band lobby.
Speaker 11 (35:19):
Well, and that's the thing too, is you look at
who these media reporters and media who they're quoting, right,
they quote groups like that as as supposed experts. They
they use Moms Demand studies, for example, to push out
into their news stories as if they are facts. So
they're using sources that are actively working against the Second
(35:42):
Amendment every single day to shape public policy and to
shape opinion about the Second Amendment and gun ownership that
is completely tainted and run by these these organizations that
the media simply uses and doesn't get, you know, the
other side of the story. They oftentimes vilify the NRA,
they vilify Second Amendment advocates, they vilify gun owners, and
(36:06):
they set up the narrative as if those groups that
are anti are the ones who are the authority on
the issue, when we both know that lots of times
they put out false data, they put out false narratives,
and they themselves don't have enough information about what's actually
going on.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Well, they're trying to set up a baseline of, if
you will, what the science is. And I am convinced
at this point, Katie, to throw this out for you
to consider and to maybe go forward with it, that
I think there's an active effort to seed AI models
with this bias, hoping that when people come back in
and they do this study. Later on, they'll say, well,
(36:43):
obviously this is all true because it's what AI is returning,
and I think that's.
Speaker 4 (36:46):
Going on right now.
Speaker 11 (36:48):
It is because AI just scrapes what's already out there, right, So,
when you have mountains and mountains of false propaganda that's
anti Second Amendment, AI just takes that and spit back
out at fact, which is clearly you know, it's garbage
and garbage out kind of thing. So I know that
(37:09):
Elon Musk is working on his AI not to operate
that way, but generally, you know, the Silicon Valley types,
the tech titans, they're more than happy with having an
anti Second Amendment stance in their AI models and calling
it fact.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
No exactly, You are right, all right? Can tell people
where they can catch up with you and find out
more about what you're doing.
Speaker 11 (37:30):
Well, first, you can watch my show News Nation Monday
through Friday, ten pm Eastern. Would love to have you there.
And then you can follow me on Instagram at Katie
Pavlich and you can also follow me on X so
that is basically where you can find me. And you
can find me at gun site in October for the
big anniversary we have for the gas match, So looking
forward to seeing everybody there.
Speaker 4 (37:50):
You're going to be at the gas match for the
fiftieth year anniversary.
Speaker 11 (37:53):
Absolutely, I'm the back to back shoot house champ. I
got to show up what.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
You've been. You're the shootouse champ.
Speaker 11 (38:02):
Yeah for the women got a dog?
Speaker 8 (38:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (38:06):
Do you ever? Do you ever get to practice now?
Or where do you live?
Speaker 11 (38:10):
Not as much as I should, but I do try
to get to the range to keep myself fresh. I
know it's as Ken always says, it's a perishable skill.
So yes, I know. Thank you there it is.
Speaker 4 (38:20):
Katie, Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to have
you here. We'll get you back on sometime.
Speaker 11 (38:24):
All right, talk to you guys soon. Thank you, all right?
Speaker 4 (38:27):
Do you take care? Yeah? Kay Pavlich, what a joy?
That was fun.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
We had Ken walking in here and she's quoting can't
just so you know, Katie's talking about you over here,
so just letting you know. Yeah, I know again, right,
just right, everybody does. Kn's line, of course is you
know Winter, are you coming to gunsite? And it's true,
whatever it is. I was going to ask her that,
but then she filled it in. She's going to be
here for the gas match. Gas is gun a gun
Site alumni shoot. In case you don't know, you have to.
(38:52):
If there's prerequisites, you have to have been through at
least a three day pistol class at gun Site before
you can get in here, and then you become part
of the gun fite family. I know it sounds corny
and it sounds goofy, but it's true. And if you've
been here, you understand. If you got a raven on
the back of your car, there are only a few
people will know what that is. But the ones who do,
(39:12):
you're gonna go, yeah, yeah, we're part of this together.
There you go, Hey, don't go far. We'll be right
back with more to gun talk. I am Tom Gresham. Yeah,
we're still talking about guns around here. What else are
you gonna do? We're at gun Sight. We're talking with
(39:32):
Buzz who owns guns gun Site. We've got good ken over.
He wo's the CEO. Got my friend Bob Shimazoo, who
is like taking out every class you can take over here,
actually came down. He's gonna take the class. We're gonna
take the class together. It's gonna stay with me. That
doesn't sound right. We're taking the class together shooting old
guns and old holsters with old sites cause the old guys.
Speaker 4 (39:51):
So there you go, that's what we do. Something happened
in Florida this week that I wanted to address.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
It was interesting, and I think it's a chance for
USh revisit what constitutes effective activism. There's a major I
guess the major grocery store in Florida's publics, Publix.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
Big big chain.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
And when they got constitutional carry there and got open
carry was legalized in Florida several years ago, a number
of the stores in the state, outlets decided they would
block that put up signs no open carry public says,
now we're going to allow that's not a problem. Well,
then this past week they put out word put out
signs that says we're going to ask patrons not to
(40:37):
open carry. Only law enforcement could open carry in publics.
And Lee Williams, who's known as the Gun Writer, was
writing about that. I said, Lee, he's down in Florida,
said let me explain to you an activism effort that
I have done in the past that I found to
be very effective because you got to find where the
leverage is, what's important to the people running publics only
(41:00):
one thing profit. This the only thing that matters, not
public opinion unless it affects profit. So this is real simple.
You and a thousand of your friends go shopping, get
their competitors, and every week when you go shop and
get the competitors, you take a picture of your receipt
of how much you spend at their competitor, and you
(41:22):
send an email with a picture of that receipt to
the CEO and to the chairman of the board, people
who are responsible for the bottom line, and you say,
I am no longer shopping at publics because of your policy,
your anti Second Amendment or anti constitutional policy there. If, however,
(41:43):
you change your policy, I will be happy to come
back and spend my money with your store. It's not
being mean, it's not being nasty. It's just you made
me unwelcome there, and I'm spending my money somewhere else.
If one person does it, it's ignorable. If ten people
do it, it's still ignorable. If one hundred people do it,
(42:03):
they go what's going on? But if a thousand people
do it, and they're getting a thousand emails a week
for people who say I'm not spending money at your store,
I'm spending it with your competitor because of this. It's
that's a lot of money. That's a lot of money
that's not flowing to the bottom line. And if you
have somebody like you get a statewide gun owners organization
(42:27):
and all the members, let's say it's ten thousand people
doing that, it will not be ignored because there's only
one reason that that company exists, and there's only one
reason that there's a CEO and a chairman of the
board and a board of directors, and it's to make money,
to turn a profit. And turning a profit is a
(42:48):
good American thing. It's always say that the number one
obligation that a company has to its customers is to
make a profit.
Speaker 4 (42:56):
And people go, what are you talking about it?
Speaker 3 (42:57):
So, well, you if they're not making profit, they're not
going to be there to continue to service their customers.
So you've got to make a profit, and that's how
you take care of your customers. In this case, you
simply say, you know, I'm simply not spending money with
you anymore, and neither of my friends, as you can
see from the thousands of emails you're getting every week
(43:19):
with a not just I'm saying this, but oh no,
here's a copy of the receipt. This is how much
I didn't spend with you this week. I will guarantee
you it will have an impact. I have used this
before on several companies, several national companies, and they have
all reversed their policy.
Speaker 4 (43:38):
So there you go.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
If you were in Florida, jump on this, start working
on this, get together with your friends, get your state
organization involved.
Speaker 4 (43:46):
Let's see if we can get this thing turned around.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
Don't have to be nasty about it, but you do
have to be committed, and that becomes being effective.
Speaker 4 (43:55):
All right, we'll be right back with more gun talk
from the gun side.
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