In This Hour:
-- Charles Cooke explains how he became a gun guy and Second Amendment supporter even though he was born and raised in England.
-- With the stabbings at a Michigan Walmart and an armed citizen stopping the attacker, it's time to review your personal plan on who is going to protect you and your family.
-- Widespread reports of the Sig P320 pistol firing without the trigger being pulled have reached a level where military units are banning their use as are shooting ranges around the U.S. What's going on?
Gun Talk 07.25.27 Hour 2
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
-- Charles Cooke explains how he became a gun guy and Second Amendment supporter even though he was born and raised in England.
-- With the stabbings at a Michigan Walmart and an armed citizen stopping the attacker, it's time to review your personal plan on who is going to protect you and your family.
-- Widespread reports of the Sig P320 pistol firing without the trigger being pulled have reached a level where military units are banning their use as are shooting ranges around the U.S. What's going on?
Gun Talk 07.25.27 Hour 2
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Ruger dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hey, welcome back to gun Talk, Tom Gresham. We're just
give me a call eight six to six Talk Gun
or Tom Talk Gun. Now. Of course when we talk
about guns, we like the technical stuff and we'd like
to talk about self defense with guns and being prepared.
But you know you can't ignore politics and the general
societal issues. And to join me right now to talk
(00:33):
about that as a gentleman. To actually, Hillsdale College called
him a gun loving britt Charles C. W. Cook, Charlie,
thanks for.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Being here, man, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Okay, so obviously you are in Florida, but you do
not sound like a Floridian.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
No, No, I'm from England originally.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
I have been in the US for fourteen years and
I've climate size and became a citizenvite anything.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
I lost the accent.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
I don't think I'd be fooling anyone if I said
I was a Florida man.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Not at all all right, So how did an Oxford
train brit get to Florida and then become a gun
owner and shooter.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Well, actually I started not with guns, but with history.
I studied American colonial history while I was in college,
and I became transfixed by the founding fathers and the
constitution they wrote. And you'll notice, I'm sure it's the
same in America. In academia and England, there is this
(01:31):
is general view that the Second Amendment has been somehow
misinterpreted or cynically recast by gun owners. And I have
grown up believing this because I was in England, and
the more I.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Read, the more I thought, well, that's just not true.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
And so I ended up writing a good deal about
the passage of the Second Amendment because this really annoyed me.
And at this point I wasn't greatly into two guns.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
But one thing led to another. The more I read,
the more.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
I thought, basically, everything I've been told about this is
a lie. And I then started shooting and following the
politics of it and meeting other guns, and I didn't
want at It is a.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Difficult journey to go from what you know to be
true to realize that you have been lied to about it,
isn't it?
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely because you also have to recalibrate who
you believe. That's the thing, as you think, well, hang on,
you just assume that people wouldn't tell you. Now, a
lot of people, I should say, who I believe the
nonsense about the Second Amendment being a.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Collective right or whatever.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
They're actually aren't lying so much as they just they
didn't know, right, especially in England, where it's not particularly
important because there is no second amount.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, but over here we have people telling us that
who do know the difference and that they know they're lying.
And actually I coined the phrase the gun band industry
because there is a lot of money to be made
pushing this myth that the Second Amendment isn't real.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
I mean there's also the strategic point, which you know,
Sanford Levinston is not a gun guy, made in nineteen
eighty nine, which is that if you believe that all
guns should be banned, the Second Amendment is in a
super Bowl obstacon. So you have really only one choice,
which is a lie about it.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
An awful lot of people have.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Done this, but it's a real shame because it wipes
out huge swathes of American history, and not just at
the founding, but in reconstruction it wipes out a lot
of African American history, and it's really a sin to
lie about history, So you shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
It for the reference flows who want to look it up.
Sandford Levitson wrote the Embarrassing Second Amendment. He's a law
professor at the University of Texas, and it really upended
the scholarship on the Second Amendment at the time, and
really it's stood as the platform upon which most of
the scholarship has been done since then.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
That's correct, absolutely, all right.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
So you were recently commenting, and you're in Florida, and
you're watching the discussions in Florida, but they're nationwide about
constitutional carry. And I go all the way back to
when Florida set the stage with permitted carrie. We're getting
a conceal permit, and the lies at that time were myriad,
(04:24):
and the blood would run in the streets and every
fender bender would turn out to be a shooting, and
et cetera, et cetera. And we're seeing the same kind
of lies perpetuated and carried forward by the media now
about constitutional carry, aren't.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
We Yeah, thankfully it's not working because we now have
thirty one states constitutional carriacter.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I think maybe twenty nine with Tennessee and about to
join us with thirty.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
Oh okay, so we're you know, three fists. And that has,
as far as I know, been not a single attempt
to repeal constitutional carry ever in any state that it
is tossed in.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
My mistake, I said, is North Carolina? Was thinking of
North Carolina?
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Right?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
No, No, You're exactly right in this movement, and it
is that is a movement going across the country, and
I think it is built on people looking out and
having a more realistic viewpoint of what constitutes safety and
who provides safety in them. Coming to this, frankly a
hard decision that, gee, no one is actually going to
(05:31):
protect us, honey, We're going to have to get a
gun and protect ourselves.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Well, that and also to oppose constitutional carry, you have
to believe that paperwork is an obstacle to criminals, which
is preposterous. I mean, what we're talking about here, the risk,
so cooled, is that people will murder and nime others
(05:56):
with guns. Well, if you're prepared to do that, which
criminals are, you don't care if you've got a permit
on not. You don't care what the rules it's. It's
just an obstacle. And I think this is one of
those common sense issues. I don't like that term generally
because people hijack it, you know, to say my opinion,
But I do think it's common sense. First off, there
is just no justification in a country with a bill
(06:18):
of rights like ours to have one right that requires
permitting when the others don't. But even if you don't
like that, suppose you're skeptical at the second Amendment.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Nothing happens when this gets passed.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
I mean, this is the thing I would compare this
to so as you said the beginning, I'm from England.
In Florida, we don't have an annual vehicle inspection mandate.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
It doesn't exist. I think a lot of states don't.
Some do, New Jersey does.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
In England, we do so in England this is thing
called an MOT Every year you have to take your
car in and as a matter of law, it has
to be looked at and then issued a certificate before
you can drive it. Will my family come over to Florida,
you know, I said to them, we don't have that here,
and they were horrified, Like you, know why what happens
(07:03):
is everyone always crashing into each other with these oca
And I said, you know, there's no statistical difference between
states that do and don't have it, or countries that
do and don't have it, Like it doesn't actually do anything.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
And once people hear that, they say, okay.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
Well, like, I guess fair enough, right, I mean, whatever
you're ideological pryor is.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
And I think it's the same with this.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
Put aside all the stuff we believe about the Second
Amendment and the right to the people to keep bare arms.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
And all that. If there is literally no point in having.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
A permitting system, If abolishing the permitting system either does
nothing or make things better, why on earth would you
attach one to a constitutional right? And I think people
recognize that. That's why I think this has spread across
the country.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Well, what you're saying is, at its core, gun control
does not work if you at least define work as
reducing crime. In fact, I have never neve been doing
this for a half a century, never seen any data
indicating that any gun control anywhere in the US, and
we've tried them all anything ever reduce crime.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
No, And that's again because the problem here are not
the law abiding citizens who follow these sorts of laws.
And this is the press is really responsible with this,
because not only do they pretend that they'll be blood
in the streets and shootouts in the supermarket.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
They love that one, so we shootouts in the supermarket.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
I don't know why, but they also pretend that the
constitutional carry laws do things that they don't. So if
you read a newspaper article when constitutional carry is being proposed,
as it was here in Florida two years ago, it
always makes claims like it will prevent people who are
prohibited from owning firearms from being prosecuted.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
No it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
It says that if there is a gun that is
regulated or banned NFA items for example, that it affects
those it removes any restrictions.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
No it doesn't. They say, well, if you want to
walk into.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
An area that is restricted as school, for example, that
that makes this impossible to enforce.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
No it doesn't. Well, and so what you get this
fake version of it.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
That is, you need the fake version because the real
version just isn't a good argument.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Their position, their argument, and what they put forward is
what we want is for anyone, anywhere, any time to
be able to have a gun, and none of that's true.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
What we want and what we've got now in thirty
states is for the presumption to be that American citizens
can exercise their constitutional rights without permission if a court
of law has said that a person is prohibited.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
I mean, we can talk about that.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
There are circumstances in which that's appropriate. I think the
rights restoration movement is correct on a lot of this.
But violent criminals, I say, a serial killer, a court
says to them, you're not allowed to own a gun.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Constitutional carriage doesn't affect that.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
And I've never met a gun owner ever who has said,
you know who I think should be allowed to own
guns convicted murderers.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
I mean, this is just not a position.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
That they right. All right, I've got one for you.
And this goes way way back when Florida first started
having permitted carry, not costumes to carry, but conceio carry.
After a few years, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement
did a study and they studied people who had carry
permits and how often they commit crime. And the data
(10:20):
was really interesting. I haven't seen it put forward very often,
and that was that people who have carry permits commit
crime at a rate of one percent of the general public,
which flipping around, that means that a person without a
carry permit was one hundred times more likely to commit
a crime.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
Yeah, this is actually been one downside to having constitutional
carriers that we go to all of this data out
of Texas and Florida that vindicated all of the things
that you and I.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Believe, but I didn't. Look, there's a lot going on
there right.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
One is that if you're the sort of person who's
going to jump through the hoops to get a carried permit,
you're probably not a criminal, which underscooes what we were
saying out there.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
And then the other thing is that, as you will.
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Know, and as I learned, people who carry guns are
incredibly serious about it and intentional and responsible. There is
this Yosemite sam image that is put forward by the
anti gun lobby that just believes that people treat their
firearms irresponsibly. You know, they're come to Biden throwing them
in a trash can outside of school, but they don't.
(11:24):
Every concealed carrier I've ever met, every instructor that I
ever had, was really quite sober about the prospect and
drilled into me. Look, this is a great responsibility, and
I think if you're the sort of person who takes
that seriously, then you're probably not the sort of person
who's going to casually come at crimes.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Take what we know about permitted carry and people who
have permits are very law abiding, and apply that to
the constitutional carry. And I would say that what a
lot of people miss on this, whether by design or
just don't see it, is so that people who are
waiting for constitutional carey to be able to carry, or
(12:05):
people who are currently obeying the law and may be
not caring and they're waiting for it to be legal,
and those who are caring illegally now don't care about
the law. So once again, the only people affected by
this are the law aboudy. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
And the most extreme version of the misunderstanding here is
when somebody commits a crime that makes the news and
say it's in Texas or Florida or Georgia or a
state that in the last ten years has loosened its
laws here and the press will say in the wake
of and then they'll insert whatever law has changed as
(12:47):
if it had anything whatsoever to do with that law.
In almost every case, it doesn't even intersect. The Uvalde
shooting was a good example of that, because Texas has
passed a few laws a few months earlier that loosened
gun restrictions, and the New York Times.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Did exactly what I just described. They said in the
wake of that. But if you looked at what had
changed in the law and what had happened that you're
on in.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
The two things didn't meet right. They weren't connected in
any way. And you know, I think this is an
important point, not just because it's irritating for us reading
this in the press, but it's an important point. We've
started talking about people who want to ban guns. I
think what you're seeing there is a tell. It's a
tell because the people who write those articles essentially think
(13:32):
that there are two directions.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
They're not actually interested in the law how it works.
They just see errors.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
One arrow points towards fewer gun restrictions and the other
points towards a gun ban, and so anything that isn't
going toward the gun ban is seen to them as
a problem, even if they can't explain why it causes.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Any problems, because it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
And so constitution or carry even though it doesn't do
anything bad is going in the wrong direction.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Right.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
If your aim is going I'm being banned, right, then
you can't have a system in which that is loosened
and more people are more easily able to take advantage
of their rights.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
And I think that expreinds a lot of it. They'd
never admit it.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
They call us conspiracy theorists when we say that, but
I think that's what it is.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
It's just it's going in the wrong direction, so it
must be bad.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Well, I have said for years and we don't have
much time left, but I do want your overview on this.
That those who want gun control, they say, well, we
only want this, we only want this, but what they
really want is to ban guns. And occasionally they will
actually come out and say that you come into this
country from another country and you have a fresh look
at this. I would love to get your impression on that.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
Well, I think that's right, and it's a ratchet right
where they get the thing that they said was all
they wanted. Then they say, well, we already do that,
so maybe we should do this. And look, this isn't
hypothetical or theoretical. I'm from England, as I say, go
back and read the history of British gun control from
about eighteen eighty to now, you will see this happen.
(15:01):
You will see, well, we just want to regulate pistols,
so well, we just want people to get a license,
so well, we just want to ban this sort of gun,
and bit by bit slowly, the right, which never existed
in the way does in America because there was no
constitutional provision disappeared. And that's why you can't give an inch,
because everywhere other than here that has been the story.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Well put Charles CW. Cook you got this Charles CW.
Cook Podcast. He's a senior editor of Nash Review. Charles,
you'd be welcome back here anytime. I really appreciate your time.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Enjoying it all right, thanks so much. I don't go far.
Gun Talk will be right back.
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Speaker 3 (17:48):
Hey this Shohnny Durry from Durry's Guns. Welcome back to
gun Talk.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Well, thank you, Johnny, appreciate that. Hey, I am Tom
gresham Man. We are talking about guns here because well
that's what we do. If you want to join us,
give me a call eight six to six Talk Gun
or Tom Talk Gun. We'll talk about a lot of
different things, and one of them is this attack at
a Walmart in Traverse City, Michigan. A guy with a
knife stabs a whole bunch of people. He gets stopped
(18:16):
by concerned citizens plural, and one of them has a gun.
He's been identified online. I'll go ahead give his name
out because it looks like it's probably correct at this point.
Dereck Perry is his name. Not sure what his background
is I've seen several different things. We don't know yet.
(18:37):
We'll find out more as it goes along. We're mere
hours away from this attack. But he had a gun
and he was okay pulling it out and pointing it
at this guy and making him stop doing what he's doing.
And other citizens came in and got involved, and eventually
the police showed up. As they do. I mean, they
do it they can. I'm not. It's not an econom
(19:00):
it's just a fact. They'll show up when again. They'll
get there as quickly as I can, but they're probably
not going to be there when it all goes down.
And of course the media they said, well, yeah, the
police showed up and you know it took you into custody.
Well that is technically true. They didn't stop anything. They
(19:22):
showed up and said, oh okay, good job, we got
this now. I know there are a lot of people
who say it's too much trouble to carry a gun.
It's too much trouble. I don't want the responsibility. Okay,
I get it. Understand. I'm not saying you have to
(19:42):
or you should, but don't don't kid yourself into thinking
you're prepared or you're ready. You need to own up
to the fact that you said I am willing to
be a victim. I'm also willing to not help help
other people. That's the thing most people won't say out loud.
(20:07):
I am willing to not help other people who are
in real trouble. It's one thing to say I'm not
gonna help myself. It's another thing, I think a horrible
thing frankly, to say I'm not gonna help my family
because I chose not to be prepared. I chose not
to have safety equipment with me. I chose not to
(20:27):
take training. I chose not to carry a gun. I
chose not to be prepared, not to be a first responder.
I chose to watch whatever horrible thing happens to other
people and maybe even my family. Oh you don't like
it when I say it that way. Why is that?
Because you haven't thought about it that way? Because it
(20:52):
hurts too much to look in the mirror and go, hah,
I am not the person I thought I was. Because, frankly,
and here's what it's going to get personal and ugly.
If you choose not to protect your family, you're not
the person you thought you were. And I don't think
(21:12):
you're the person that you should be because it's a choice.
It's not saying, well, I didn't think about it. Of
course you thought about it. Of course you thought about it.
But you know it's too inconvenient. Guns are too uncomfortable.
I don't have a good way to carry. I mean,
the list goes on and on of all the excuses,
(21:33):
and that's all the arge excuses. You may call them reasons.
I call them excuses because you've chosen to let a
person who have no mercy at all take charge of
you and your family and their safety and their well being,
and to do unspeakable horrible things to them, maybe right
(21:54):
in front of them, and you're not gonna do anything
about it. Can you explain that to me? I don't
know that you can explain it to my satisfaction, but
I would love to hear what goes into that line
of thing. Our number here is eight sixty six, Talk Gun.
We're talking about good gun guys and bad guys. You
(22:15):
could choose the whey you are all right back with
you here, eight sixty six Talk gun. That'll get you in.
I'm Tom Gresham. If you want to join us, just
give you a holler. And you know, you can pretty
much be anywhere. We're open lines if there's a subject
that is on your mind, a question that you have,
And yeah, you can ask me about what kind of gun.
(22:35):
What doesn't really matter if you're talking hunting, competition, self defense,
target shooting, whatever. We'll go down that rabbit hole of
what kind of gun at the same time. And let
me throw this out. And I've said this many times
here before. We tend to worry about the wrong things,
(22:56):
not just in guns, but in everything in life. You
hear people talk about, what are they worried about? What
are they talking about? It's almost always the wrong thing.
It's usually the inconsequential things or things that get you
off track. And look, don't get me wrong, I love
to talk about this gun versus that gun and that
caliber and this thing. It's fun. It's hardware stuff and
(23:19):
I'm a gear guy. But if you pressed me and said, okay,
what's the most important thing to know about picking a
gun for self defense, I'd say, then don't worry about
picking the gun. They all worked just fine. Did I
say that? Really? Yeah? I did, Smith, Taurus, Springfield, Ruger
(23:45):
Block pick one. They all work fine. Semi auto revolver,
double action, even single action. Why would anybody I don't
know why. I don't know why. But if you know
what you're doing, it works just fine. Oh there it is,
(24:11):
isn't it if you know what you're doing. Now we
get to the thing you should be thinking about, and
nobody wants to because it involves a commitment of time
and money a friend, smart person. So you know, people
(24:34):
will tell you what's important to them, but they're usually lying.
But they will show you what's important to them. And
that's always true. And how do people show you what's
important to them. It's the thing they spend their time
and their money on. If you spend your time and
your money not getting training, then you're saying training is
(24:58):
not important to me. If you won't make the effort
to become competent with a self defense gun, then you're
saying that's not important to me. Now, look, i'll give
you an out here. Part of the problem is I
think people don't really know what being competent means. We
(25:19):
had a lot of people who tell us, yeah, I'm
really good, I'm the best shooter in my group. I've
been shooting all my life. Here that all the time.
You know, I'm ex military. I got trained in the military,
so I know what I'm doing. No, you don't. I'm
a hundred percent sure you don't. Unless you were special
Forces are seriously trained up, you probably don't know what
(25:44):
you're doing. I've been carrying a gun all my life.
Yeah great, fine, So what I see people who have
been driving all their lives and they're really bad at it?
I'm sorry, not impressed. How all right, here's a question
for you. How do you know if you're any good?
(26:05):
That's an interesting question, isn't it. I think I'm good.
How would I put that to the test. How would
I actually know if I'm any good? Two ways I
could think right off the top of my head. One,
it's competition. Go sign up for a basic Steel Challenge
match somewhere. Simple, simple, simple, five steel targets. They're gonna
(26:29):
do it in four or five different ways. Shut up
up and move them around, and you get to draw
and shoot for time. You got to hit the targets,
and when you hit the last target, the time stops.
It's really simple. It's really easy. Go sign up for
a Steel Challenge match somewhere. Shoot it with other people.
(26:49):
Watch how they do, then watch how you do. You
might be surprised. The other if course would be to
go take a real class. I mean, what do I
mean when I say a real class? A real self
defense class is a multi day class. Oo, I'm busy.
(27:10):
I don't have time for that. Here we go, get
what's important to you. I'm too busy to do that.
In other words, the other things that I'm already doing
are far more important than life saving skills. Say it
that way. It sounds stupid, doesn't it. I don't want
to learn life saving skills. I don't want to take
(27:32):
a stop to Bleeve class, which is a half day
class which is available anywhere, which will help you save
the lives of your family members or somebody you come
upon in a traffic accident or some other thing, or
maybe even save your own life. I'm too busy, you
know what. I am pretty sure that we all have
(27:53):
exactly the same number of hours in a day. You
get to decide, it's your deal. You get to decide
what you're going to do with those hours. I get it.
We're all busy. We all have demands on our time,
we all have demands on our budgets. I get it,
(28:14):
and yeah, I know it sounds like I'm chiding people,
but I would just say all this is to say,
trying to shake you out of your comfort level and
where you are and go, Okay, maybe Tom's onto something.
Maybe Tom know something, Maybe Tom's seen an awful lot
of people take classes and come in thinking that they're
(28:35):
God's gift of gunfighting and ant about an hour into it.
Instructors got to take it to the side and say
we're going to have a talk because you can't keep
pointing your gun at yourself and other people. I mean,
I've been in a class where I said, you can't
do that anymore. You have to stop doing We had
a class where Rob Latham in our class instructor, he
(29:01):
came up to a guy. He says, right, here's the deal.
You have to stop doing that because the guy was
actually tilting the gun over feeling for his holster when
he's reholstering, and in the process, rather than having the
gun pointing at the ground when he was holstering, he
was actually pointing into his side. And Rob doesn't pull
(29:22):
any punch, and he says, this is real simple. He says,
if you shoot yourself in the leg we can take
care of you. If you shoot yourself doing that, I
can't save you. It's as simple as that. If you
point the gun at your liver or your kidney or
your guts and shoot yourself, I may not be able
to save you before the ambulance gets here. So we're
gonna have to take you to the side, and we're
(29:42):
gonna have to have a talk. And the fallow up
to that is and if you do it again, you
will have to leave the class. Look, if you're an instructor,
even if you're getting paid, if somebody keeps doing that,
you got to tell them, Okay, you're out. You can't
do this. You're gonna have to go get some one
(30:03):
on one instruction somewhere. And if you're a student in
a class and it is clearly unsafe, you can speak
to the instructor. But if the instructor won't do anything about,
it's time for you to remove yourself from that situation. Yeah,
I know, I paid money for it. I get it,
I understand, but don't put yourself into an unsafe situation.
(30:25):
You wouldn't walk into a bad part of town and
hold up four hundred dollars in cash and say, anybody
going to do anything about this, that'd be stupid. Being
around people who are doing stupid things with guns would
be stupid as well, wouldn't it to wonder? Have you
run into anything like that? And what's your take and
(30:46):
how do you approach this, and how do you how
do you decide if you're going to be the sheep
dog that takes care of yourself and your family or
you decide I'm just not going to do that because
that's just inconvenient. I don't know how you end up there.
Give me a call, let me know what you think
about this. Eight sixty six Talk Gun. It is a
(31:07):
heavy subject. I get that, I understand, but look, the
whole idea of gear versus training is one that we
will always have. I'd love to get your take. We'll
be right back. Do you want to have a special
rifle that can do almost everything and that your friends
don't have? Hi? I'm Tom Gresham, host of Gun Talk,
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These are going quickly. Get your GT. Thirty gun talkscout
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That will certainly get you in here. Let's talk to
Derek line three, because I was hoping we would get
to the subject, but he just called in and Derek,
you're gonna bring it up, So go for it, man.
Speaker 9 (33:47):
Yeah, I've just had a question. I owned an M
een and going to the range a couple of times.
It's always been a topic of discussion with them having
a misfire or just randomly going off, which I've never
heard before, and it's been something that we've talked about,
and that's maybe actually contemplate switching firearms because that is
(34:10):
my daily carry, but I had issues with it.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah, we're talking about the cig see eighteen, which is
also the P three twenty, and what's been going on
with that. Of course, this is the handgun that's adopted
by the US military. There have been a number of
reports of these guns, as we say, just going off,
and traditionally, I mean, you know, the drill, We've always said,
(34:35):
you know, yeah, people say that when they pull the
trigger ended up shooting themselves and they've got to find
a way to cover it up. And that's what we
all thought was going on for the longest time. There
are now a number of videos out with guns going
off that are in holsters, people not touching them. And
then this past week you may have seen the news
out of I think a street board out of Barksdale
(34:57):
Air Force Base. An airman took his pistol off in
the holster. Supposedly or allegedly, the gun was sitting in
a holster on a desk and it goes off while
it's in the holster and shoots him and kills him.
That section of the Air Force immediately put out an
order and said, don't use these guns. You can't carry
(35:20):
these pistols. Gun Sight, the famous training facility in Arizona
put out a letter that said the SIG P three
to twenty pistol will no longer be allowed on our range.
FRC Range and bat Rouge put out the same letter
says the P three twenty went a long or be
allowed on our range. Others are doing the same thing.
(35:43):
I I would just tell you, I don't know. People say,
what do you think. I don't know. I think SIGBA
sig has probably mishandled the pr on this. I don't
know what they know about this. If there's something going on,
is it possible this gun is going off? Well, the
(36:05):
Gray Guns, who do they do? Trigger mods and aftermarket
triggers and things. They said they were able to find
a particular set of circumstances where they put it's like
a tolerance stacking where you if you do this and
this and this, they could actually get it to go
off without pulling the trigger. Okay, that's troublesome. I don't
(36:28):
know what happens to SIG as a result of this.
I think they're in real trouble now. The question is,
and Derek, going back to you, what do you do?
Do you carry this gun? Does it bother you? What
are you gonna do? Oh? Must have lost Derek. Okay,
(36:50):
all right, I put the question out on the floor.
If you have a SIG P three twenty or an
M seventeen or a M eighteen, what are you gonna do?
Are you Are you going to continue to carry it?
Are you worried about these reports of these guns going
off uncommanded without pulling the trigger? There are oh there was,
(37:12):
I guess I just saw a report that SIG was
suing a police academy because the police Academy said they're
not going to allow the gun it's getting really weird.
I don't know where the truth lies. I would love
to be able to tell you this is what's going on,
(37:33):
and this is what you should do, or this is
what I would do. Now I am seeing people say, well,
you are sick, just should be breakcotted and go out
of business. We should drive them out of business. That
one concerns me. And maybe it's the longevity I have
having watched people try to put Ruger out of business
thirty years ago or something that Bill Ruger said, then
(37:55):
trying to put Smith and Wesson out of business twenty
years ago, actually more like thirty years ago now for
something that their president did. Now they're under new management.
Ruger's under U management, Smith Weston under new management. I
got a problem with us trying to put gun companies
out of business because isn't that what the gun banners do.
At the same time, I sure want them to get
(38:16):
their act together. I think it's fair to say that
I don't know what that costant what's going to cost
it you getting your act together, But calling to destroy
a gun company and put all those American workers out
of work causes me a concern. So I guess the
question on the floor, I throw this out for your calls,
your comments, is if you have a cig P three twenty,
(38:39):
what are you going to do? I actually have people say, well,
I'm not going to carry up for three sixty five.
I will because I do. It doesn't bother me. It's lights,
different pistol, different mechanisms. I'm not worried about that. But yeah,
I don't know where this is going to end up.
But right now it's a mess. And if the US
government says, see, you've got to take all these back,
(39:00):
I don't know if that's survivable. I don't know. Hey,
we'll be right back. Hey, I'm so glad that you
were here. We're having a good time talking about guns
and shooting and well but talking about self defense for
guns too, but also just a recreational part of it,
going out to the range and having some fun taking
people out shooting at the range with them and going
(39:22):
hunting all the rest of it. If you have a
comment or a question, eight six' six talk gun is
our number that'll get you in. Here john called in
out Of Central. Texas, Hey, john you got a question for? Me? Here, Yeah, tom.
Speaker 10 (39:35):
You mentioned that THE fbi has a stat where it
shows more people are killed by uh fist and fate versus.
Anguys my son is arguing with me over The.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Okay, yeah, no that's not the correct Stat the correct
stat is that more people are killed with fists and
feet than are killed by rifles or ar fifteen's not. Handguns, Okay,
yeah that comes from the FBI's uniform crime. Reports they
put out a report every year and there's an amalgamation
of the crime stats from around the, country and the
(40:09):
number of people killed just actually not even just air,
fifteens but by rifles in, general all rifles is a
smaller number that people who are killed with fists and.
Feet and so when people are always yammered about air
fifteens or quote unquote assault, rifles you, know say you understand.
THAT i, mean while any murder is, bad more people
(40:31):
are actually murdered with fist and feet than they are
where they are.
Speaker 10 (40:34):
Fifteens, okay, GREAT i appreciate, it you.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Bet all, right appreciate. That let's Grab. Charlie we've got
time to get him in here online. One Hey, Charlie, Hey,
tom how's it going? TODAY i am, great what's on your?
Speaker 9 (40:48):
Mind, YES i got a questions lord all Will husen.
Website AND i noticed that the smokeless powder price is
really shut.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
Up for a the last few.
Speaker 9 (40:59):
Years what is going on with?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
That, well several. Things one have you looked at the
price of? Houses houses have gone up a whole bunch,
too has to have, cars has everything. Else so you
got basic inflation. Working then you also have a shortage
of nitro cell, yulose which is used in the making of.
Gunpowder where's that? Going oh, yeah there's a war In
(41:21):
ukraine and other, places and we've got all. This when
they fill up a one hundred and fifty five millimeter
one fifty five, hour, sir or a millimeter or a cannon,
round they use an awful lot of, powder a whole
lot more than we. Do and so we kind of
got a little bit of a shortage of nitro Cellulos
so that's driving it. Up BUT i, HONESTLY i think
(41:43):
most of it is just basic. Inflation here's the, Problem.
Charlie you AND i have the same, problem and that
is we remember what things used to cost and start
with sound like our grand pappy where you? Go, WELL
i remember back when you could Buy, YEAH i, Know,
DAD i got. That and here we are we're doing
the same. Thing we're geezing talking about what things used to.
Cost and, yes powder has gone, up but then, again
(42:05):
projectiles and bullets have gone, up and primers have gone,
up and everything's gone. Up it's, like, okay it's just
kind of what it. Is if you were starting out,
today would we upset about the price of powder if
you didn't know what it used to? Cost that's an interesting. QUESTION,
yep that's for my. Question all, right good. DEAL i, Appreciate. Charlie,
(42:28):
yeah it's kind of where we. Are it's, like, okay,
yeah things have gone. Up we're just talking to the
other day about housing prices going up and it's like
going to like fifty percent or something in the last
five or ten. Years it's it's kind of crazy how
much it. Is so you got that. GOING i don't.
KNOW i don't know that there's anything to be done about.
(42:50):
IT i think it's just the price of stuff goes.
Up you know what hasn't gone, up interestingly enough is
the cost of. Guns there are some terrific price this
is right, now really good, deals And i'm talking about
right now in the middle of the summer of twenty twenty. Five,
frankly if you are at all interested in guns And
(43:10):
ammo and you're not, BUYING i think you're missing. Out
we're gonna look back and, say, wow can you believe
how low the prices were in summer of twenty twenty.
Five then they're gonna come back and you're gonna, go, oh,
manly should have bought. Stuff, THEN i, Mean ammo is
at an incredibly low. Price there are some smoking. Deals, well,
look sales are. Down gun companies are slashing. Prices amimal
(43:30):
companies are slashing. Prices they're having a. Sale and if
you're not buying, NOW i think you're missing. Out eight
six six Talk. Gun we'll be right back with more gun.
Talk
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Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hey, welcome back to gun Talk, Tom Gresham. We're just
give me a call eight six to six Talk Gun
or Tom Talk Gun. Now. Of course when we talk
about guns, we like the technical stuff and we'd like
to talk about self defense with guns and being prepared.
But you know you can't ignore politics and the general
societal issues. And to join me right now to talk
(00:33):
about that as a gentleman. To actually, Hillsdale College called
him a gun loving britt Charles C. W. Cook, Charlie,
thanks for.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Being here, man, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Okay, so obviously you are in Florida, but you do
not sound like a Floridian.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
No, No, I'm from England originally.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
I have been in the US for fourteen years and
I've climate size and became a citizenvite anything.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
I lost the accent.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
I don't think I'd be fooling anyone if I said
I was a Florida man.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Not at all all right, So how did an Oxford
train brit get to Florida and then become a gun
owner and shooter.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Well, actually I started not with guns, but with history.
I studied American colonial history while I was in college,
and I became transfixed by the founding fathers and the
constitution they wrote. And you'll notice, I'm sure it's the
same in America. In academia and England, there is this
(01:31):
is general view that the Second Amendment has been somehow
misinterpreted or cynically recast by gun owners. And I have
grown up believing this because I was in England, and
the more I.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Read, the more I thought, well, that's just not true.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
And so I ended up writing a good deal about
the passage of the Second Amendment because this really annoyed me.
And at this point I wasn't greatly into two guns.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
But one thing led to another. The more I read,
the more.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
I thought, basically, everything I've been told about this is
a lie. And I then started shooting and following the
politics of it and meeting other guns, and I didn't
want at It is a.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Difficult journey to go from what you know to be
true to realize that you have been lied to about it,
isn't it?
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely because you also have to recalibrate who
you believe. That's the thing, as you think, well, hang on,
you just assume that people wouldn't tell you. Now, a
lot of people, I should say, who I believe the
nonsense about the Second Amendment being a.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Collective right or whatever.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
They're actually aren't lying so much as they just they
didn't know, right, especially in England, where it's not particularly
important because there is no second amount.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, but over here we have people telling us that
who do know the difference and that they know they're lying.
And actually I coined the phrase the gun band industry
because there is a lot of money to be made
pushing this myth that the Second Amendment isn't real.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
I mean there's also the strategic point, which you know,
Sanford Levinston is not a gun guy, made in nineteen
eighty nine, which is that if you believe that all
guns should be banned, the Second Amendment is in a
super Bowl obstacon. So you have really only one choice,
which is a lie about it.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
An awful lot of people have.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Done this, but it's a real shame because it wipes
out huge swathes of American history, and not just at
the founding, but in reconstruction it wipes out a lot
of African American history, and it's really a sin to
lie about history, So you shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
It for the reference flows who want to look it up.
Sandford Levitson wrote the Embarrassing Second Amendment. He's a law
professor at the University of Texas, and it really upended
the scholarship on the Second Amendment at the time, and
really it's stood as the platform upon which most of
the scholarship has been done since then.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
That's correct, absolutely, all right.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
So you were recently commenting, and you're in Florida, and
you're watching the discussions in Florida, but they're nationwide about
constitutional carry. And I go all the way back to
when Florida set the stage with permitted carrie. We're getting
a conceal permit, and the lies at that time were myriad,
(04:24):
and the blood would run in the streets and every
fender bender would turn out to be a shooting, and
et cetera, et cetera. And we're seeing the same kind
of lies perpetuated and carried forward by the media now
about constitutional carry, aren't.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
We Yeah, thankfully it's not working because we now have
thirty one states constitutional carriacter.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I think maybe twenty nine with Tennessee and about to
join us with thirty.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
Oh okay, so we're you know, three fists. And that has,
as far as I know, been not a single attempt
to repeal constitutional carry ever in any state that it
is tossed in.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
My mistake, I said, is North Carolina? Was thinking of
North Carolina?
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Right?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
No, No, You're exactly right in this movement, and it
is that is a movement going across the country, and
I think it is built on people looking out and
having a more realistic viewpoint of what constitutes safety and
who provides safety in them. Coming to this, frankly a
hard decision that, gee, no one is actually going to
(05:31):
protect us, honey, We're going to have to get a
gun and protect ourselves.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Well, that and also to oppose constitutional carry, you have
to believe that paperwork is an obstacle to criminals, which
is preposterous. I mean, what we're talking about here, the risk,
so cooled, is that people will murder and nime others
(05:56):
with guns. Well, if you're prepared to do that, which
criminals are, you don't care if you've got a permit
on not. You don't care what the rules it's. It's
just an obstacle. And I think this is one of
those common sense issues. I don't like that term generally
because people hijack it, you know, to say my opinion,
But I do think it's common sense. First off, there
is just no justification in a country with a bill
(06:18):
of rights like ours to have one right that requires
permitting when the others don't. But even if you don't
like that, suppose you're skeptical at the second Amendment.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Nothing happens when this gets passed.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
I mean, this is the thing I would compare this
to so as you said the beginning, I'm from England.
In Florida, we don't have an annual vehicle inspection mandate.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
It doesn't exist. I think a lot of states don't.
Some do, New Jersey does.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
In England, we do so in England this is thing
called an MOT Every year you have to take your
car in and as a matter of law, it has
to be looked at and then issued a certificate before
you can drive it. Will my family come over to Florida,
you know, I said to them, we don't have that here,
and they were horrified, Like you, know why what happens
(07:03):
is everyone always crashing into each other with these oca
And I said, you know, there's no statistical difference between
states that do and don't have it, or countries that
do and don't have it, Like it doesn't actually do anything.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
And once people hear that, they say, okay.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
Well, like, I guess fair enough, right, I mean, whatever
you're ideological pryor is.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
And I think it's the same with this.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
Put aside all the stuff we believe about the Second
Amendment and the right to the people to keep bare arms.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
And all that. If there is literally no point in having.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
A permitting system, If abolishing the permitting system either does
nothing or make things better, why on earth would you
attach one to a constitutional right? And I think people
recognize that. That's why I think this has spread across
the country.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Well, what you're saying is, at its core, gun control
does not work if you at least define work as
reducing crime. In fact, I have never neve been doing
this for a half a century, never seen any data
indicating that any gun control anywhere in the US, and
we've tried them all anything ever reduce crime.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
No, And that's again because the problem here are not
the law abiding citizens who follow these sorts of laws.
And this is the press is really responsible with this,
because not only do they pretend that they'll be blood
in the streets and shootouts in the supermarket.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
They love that one, so we shootouts in the supermarket.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
I don't know why, but they also pretend that the
constitutional carry laws do things that they don't. So if
you read a newspaper article when constitutional carry is being proposed,
as it was here in Florida two years ago, it
always makes claims like it will prevent people who are
prohibited from owning firearms from being prosecuted.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
No it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
It says that if there is a gun that is
regulated or banned NFA items for example, that it affects
those it removes any restrictions.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
No it doesn't. They say, well, if you want to
walk into.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
An area that is restricted as school, for example, that
that makes this impossible to enforce.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
No it doesn't. Well, and so what you get this
fake version of it.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
That is, you need the fake version because the real
version just isn't a good argument.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Their position, their argument, and what they put forward is
what we want is for anyone, anywhere, any time to
be able to have a gun, and none of that's true.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
What we want and what we've got now in thirty
states is for the presumption to be that American citizens
can exercise their constitutional rights without permission if a court
of law has said that a person is prohibited.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
I mean, we can talk about that.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
There are circumstances in which that's appropriate. I think the
rights restoration movement is correct on a lot of this.
But violent criminals, I say, a serial killer, a court
says to them, you're not allowed to own a gun.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Constitutional carriage doesn't affect that.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
And I've never met a gun owner ever who has said,
you know who I think should be allowed to own
guns convicted murderers.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
I mean, this is just not a position.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
That they right. All right, I've got one for you.
And this goes way way back when Florida first started
having permitted carry, not costumes to carry, but conceio carry.
After a few years, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement
did a study and they studied people who had carry
permits and how often they commit crime. And the data
(10:20):
was really interesting. I haven't seen it put forward very often,
and that was that people who have carry permits commit
crime at a rate of one percent of the general public,
which flipping around, that means that a person without a
carry permit was one hundred times more likely to commit
a crime.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
Yeah, this is actually been one downside to having constitutional
carriers that we go to all of this data out
of Texas and Florida that vindicated all of the things
that you and I.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Believe, but I didn't. Look, there's a lot going on
there right.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
One is that if you're the sort of person who's
going to jump through the hoops to get a carried permit,
you're probably not a criminal, which underscooes what we were
saying out there.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
And then the other thing is that, as you will.
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Know, and as I learned, people who carry guns are
incredibly serious about it and intentional and responsible. There is
this Yosemite sam image that is put forward by the
anti gun lobby that just believes that people treat their
firearms irresponsibly. You know, they're come to Biden throwing them
in a trash can outside of school, but they don't.
(11:24):
Every concealed carrier I've ever met, every instructor that I
ever had, was really quite sober about the prospect and
drilled into me. Look, this is a great responsibility, and
I think if you're the sort of person who takes
that seriously, then you're probably not the sort of person
who's going to casually come at crimes.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Take what we know about permitted carry and people who
have permits are very law abiding, and apply that to
the constitutional carry. And I would say that what a
lot of people miss on this, whether by design or
just don't see it, is so that people who are
waiting for constitutional carey to be able to carry, or
(12:05):
people who are currently obeying the law and may be
not caring and they're waiting for it to be legal,
and those who are caring illegally now don't care about
the law. So once again, the only people affected by
this are the law aboudy. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
And the most extreme version of the misunderstanding here is
when somebody commits a crime that makes the news and
say it's in Texas or Florida or Georgia or a
state that in the last ten years has loosened its
laws here and the press will say in the wake
of and then they'll insert whatever law has changed as
(12:47):
if it had anything whatsoever to do with that law.
In almost every case, it doesn't even intersect. The Uvalde
shooting was a good example of that, because Texas has
passed a few laws a few months earlier that loosened
gun restrictions, and the New York Times.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Did exactly what I just described. They said in the
wake of that. But if you looked at what had
changed in the law and what had happened that you're
on in.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
The two things didn't meet right. They weren't connected in
any way. And you know, I think this is an
important point, not just because it's irritating for us reading
this in the press, but it's an important point. We've
started talking about people who want to ban guns. I
think what you're seeing there is a tell. It's a
tell because the people who write those articles essentially think
(13:32):
that there are two directions.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
They're not actually interested in the law how it works.
They just see errors.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
One arrow points towards fewer gun restrictions and the other
points towards a gun ban, and so anything that isn't
going toward the gun ban is seen to them as
a problem, even if they can't explain why it causes.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Any problems, because it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
And so constitution or carry even though it doesn't do
anything bad is going in the wrong direction.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Right.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
If your aim is going I'm being banned, right, then
you can't have a system in which that is loosened
and more people are more easily able to take advantage
of their rights.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
And I think that expreinds a lot of it. They'd
never admit it.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
They call us conspiracy theorists when we say that, but
I think that's what it is.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
It's just it's going in the wrong direction, so it
must be bad.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Well, I have said for years and we don't have
much time left, but I do want your overview on this.
That those who want gun control, they say, well, we
only want this, we only want this, but what they
really want is to ban guns. And occasionally they will
actually come out and say that you come into this
country from another country and you have a fresh look
at this. I would love to get your impression on that.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
Well, I think that's right, and it's a ratchet right
where they get the thing that they said was all
they wanted. Then they say, well, we already do that,
so maybe we should do this. And look, this isn't
hypothetical or theoretical. I'm from England, as I say, go
back and read the history of British gun control from
about eighteen eighty to now, you will see this happen.
(15:01):
You will see, well, we just want to regulate pistols,
so well, we just want people to get a license,
so well, we just want to ban this sort of gun,
and bit by bit slowly, the right, which never existed
in the way does in America because there was no
constitutional provision disappeared. And that's why you can't give an inch,
because everywhere other than here that has been the story.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Well put Charles CW. Cook you got this Charles CW.
Cook Podcast. He's a senior editor of Nash Review. Charles,
you'd be welcome back here anytime. I really appreciate your time.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Enjoying it all right, thanks so much. I don't go far.
Gun Talk will be right back.
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Speaker 3 (17:48):
Hey this Shohnny Durry from Durry's Guns. Welcome back to
gun Talk.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Well, thank you, Johnny, appreciate that. Hey, I am Tom
gresham Man. We are talking about guns here because well
that's what we do. If you want to join us,
give me a call eight six to six Talk Gun
or Tom Talk Gun. We'll talk about a lot of
different things, and one of them is this attack at
a Walmart in Traverse City, Michigan. A guy with a
knife stabs a whole bunch of people. He gets stopped
(18:16):
by concerned citizens plural, and one of them has a gun.
He's been identified online. I'll go ahead give his name
out because it looks like it's probably correct at this point.
Dereck Perry is his name. Not sure what his background
is I've seen several different things. We don't know yet.
(18:37):
We'll find out more as it goes along. We're mere
hours away from this attack. But he had a gun
and he was okay pulling it out and pointing it
at this guy and making him stop doing what he's doing.
And other citizens came in and got involved, and eventually
the police showed up. As they do. I mean, they
do it they can. I'm not. It's not an econom
(19:00):
it's just a fact. They'll show up when again. They'll
get there as quickly as I can, but they're probably
not going to be there when it all goes down.
And of course the media they said, well, yeah, the
police showed up and you know it took you into custody.
Well that is technically true. They didn't stop anything. They
(19:22):
showed up and said, oh okay, good job, we got
this now. I know there are a lot of people
who say it's too much trouble to carry a gun.
It's too much trouble. I don't want the responsibility. Okay,
I get it. Understand. I'm not saying you have to
(19:42):
or you should, but don't don't kid yourself into thinking
you're prepared or you're ready. You need to own up
to the fact that you said I am willing to
be a victim. I'm also willing to not help help
other people. That's the thing most people won't say out loud.
(20:07):
I am willing to not help other people who are
in real trouble. It's one thing to say I'm not
gonna help myself. It's another thing, I think a horrible
thing frankly, to say I'm not gonna help my family
because I chose not to be prepared. I chose not
to have safety equipment with me. I chose not to
(20:27):
take training. I chose not to carry a gun. I
chose not to be prepared, not to be a first responder.
I chose to watch whatever horrible thing happens to other
people and maybe even my family. Oh you don't like
it when I say it that way. Why is that?
Because you haven't thought about it that way? Because it
(20:52):
hurts too much to look in the mirror and go, hah,
I am not the person I thought I was. Because, frankly,
and here's what it's going to get personal and ugly.
If you choose not to protect your family, you're not
the person you thought you were. And I don't think
(21:12):
you're the person that you should be because it's a choice.
It's not saying, well, I didn't think about it. Of
course you thought about it. Of course you thought about it.
But you know it's too inconvenient. Guns are too uncomfortable.
I don't have a good way to carry. I mean,
the list goes on and on of all the excuses,
(21:33):
and that's all the arge excuses. You may call them reasons.
I call them excuses because you've chosen to let a
person who have no mercy at all take charge of
you and your family and their safety and their well being,
and to do unspeakable horrible things to them, maybe right
(21:54):
in front of them, and you're not gonna do anything
about it. Can you explain that to me? I don't
know that you can explain it to my satisfaction, but
I would love to hear what goes into that line
of thing. Our number here is eight sixty six, Talk Gun.
We're talking about good gun guys and bad guys. You
(22:15):
could choose the whey you are all right back with
you here, eight sixty six Talk gun. That'll get you in.
I'm Tom Gresham. If you want to join us, just
give you a holler. And you know, you can pretty
much be anywhere. We're open lines if there's a subject
that is on your mind, a question that you have,
And yeah, you can ask me about what kind of gun.
(22:35):
What doesn't really matter if you're talking hunting, competition, self defense,
target shooting, whatever. We'll go down that rabbit hole of
what kind of gun at the same time. And let
me throw this out. And I've said this many times
here before. We tend to worry about the wrong things,
(22:56):
not just in guns, but in everything in life. You
hear people talk about, what are they worried about? What
are they talking about? It's almost always the wrong thing.
It's usually the inconsequential things or things that get you
off track. And look, don't get me wrong, I love
to talk about this gun versus that gun and that
caliber and this thing. It's fun. It's hardware stuff and
(23:19):
I'm a gear guy. But if you pressed me and said, okay,
what's the most important thing to know about picking a
gun for self defense, I'd say, then don't worry about
picking the gun. They all worked just fine. Did I
say that? Really? Yeah? I did, Smith, Taurus, Springfield, Ruger
(23:45):
Block pick one. They all work fine. Semi auto revolver,
double action, even single action. Why would anybody I don't
know why. I don't know why. But if you know
what you're doing, it works just fine. Oh there it is,
(24:11):
isn't it if you know what you're doing. Now we
get to the thing you should be thinking about, and
nobody wants to because it involves a commitment of time
and money a friend, smart person. So you know, people
(24:34):
will tell you what's important to them, but they're usually lying.
But they will show you what's important to them. And
that's always true. And how do people show you what's
important to them. It's the thing they spend their time
and their money on. If you spend your time and
your money not getting training, then you're saying training is
(24:58):
not important to me. If you won't make the effort
to become competent with a self defense gun, then you're
saying that's not important to me. Now, look, i'll give
you an out here. Part of the problem is I
think people don't really know what being competent means. We
(25:19):
had a lot of people who tell us, yeah, I'm
really good, I'm the best shooter in my group. I've
been shooting all my life. Here that all the time.
You know, I'm ex military. I got trained in the military,
so I know what I'm doing. No, you don't. I'm
a hundred percent sure you don't. Unless you were special
Forces are seriously trained up, you probably don't know what
(25:44):
you're doing. I've been carrying a gun all my life.
Yeah great, fine, So what I see people who have
been driving all their lives and they're really bad at it?
I'm sorry, not impressed. How all right, here's a question
for you. How do you know if you're any good?
(26:05):
That's an interesting question, isn't it. I think I'm good.
How would I put that to the test. How would
I actually know if I'm any good? Two ways I
could think right off the top of my head. One,
it's competition. Go sign up for a basic Steel Challenge
match somewhere. Simple, simple, simple, five steel targets. They're gonna
(26:29):
do it in four or five different ways. Shut up
up and move them around, and you get to draw
and shoot for time. You got to hit the targets,
and when you hit the last target, the time stops.
It's really simple. It's really easy. Go sign up for
a Steel Challenge match somewhere. Shoot it with other people.
(26:49):
Watch how they do, then watch how you do. You
might be surprised. The other if course would be to
go take a real class. I mean, what do I
mean when I say a real class? A real self
defense class is a multi day class. Oo, I'm busy.
(27:10):
I don't have time for that. Here we go, get
what's important to you. I'm too busy to do that.
In other words, the other things that I'm already doing
are far more important than life saving skills. Say it
that way. It sounds stupid, doesn't it. I don't want
to learn life saving skills. I don't want to take
(27:32):
a stop to Bleeve class, which is a half day
class which is available anywhere, which will help you save
the lives of your family members or somebody you come
upon in a traffic accident or some other thing, or
maybe even save your own life. I'm too busy, you
know what. I am pretty sure that we all have
(27:53):
exactly the same number of hours in a day. You
get to decide, it's your deal. You get to decide
what you're going to do with those hours. I get it.
We're all busy. We all have demands on our time,
we all have demands on our budgets. I get it,
(28:14):
and yeah, I know it sounds like I'm chiding people,
but I would just say all this is to say,
trying to shake you out of your comfort level and
where you are and go, Okay, maybe Tom's onto something.
Maybe Tom know something, Maybe Tom's seen an awful lot
of people take classes and come in thinking that they're
(28:35):
God's gift of gunfighting and ant about an hour into it.
Instructors got to take it to the side and say
we're going to have a talk because you can't keep
pointing your gun at yourself and other people. I mean,
I've been in a class where I said, you can't
do that anymore. You have to stop doing We had
a class where Rob Latham in our class instructor, he
(29:01):
came up to a guy. He says, right, here's the deal.
You have to stop doing that because the guy was
actually tilting the gun over feeling for his holster when
he's reholstering, and in the process, rather than having the
gun pointing at the ground when he was holstering, he
was actually pointing into his side. And Rob doesn't pull
(29:22):
any punch, and he says, this is real simple. He says,
if you shoot yourself in the leg we can take
care of you. If you shoot yourself doing that, I
can't save you. It's as simple as that. If you
point the gun at your liver or your kidney or
your guts and shoot yourself, I may not be able
to save you before the ambulance gets here. So we're
gonna have to take you to the side, and we're
(29:42):
gonna have to have a talk. And the fallow up
to that is and if you do it again, you
will have to leave the class. Look, if you're an instructor,
even if you're getting paid, if somebody keeps doing that,
you got to tell them, Okay, you're out. You can't
do this. You're gonna have to go get some one
(30:03):
on one instruction somewhere. And if you're a student in
a class and it is clearly unsafe, you can speak
to the instructor. But if the instructor won't do anything about,
it's time for you to remove yourself from that situation. Yeah,
I know, I paid money for it. I get it,
I understand, but don't put yourself into an unsafe situation.
(30:25):
You wouldn't walk into a bad part of town and
hold up four hundred dollars in cash and say, anybody
going to do anything about this, that'd be stupid. Being
around people who are doing stupid things with guns would
be stupid as well, wouldn't it to wonder? Have you
run into anything like that? And what's your take and
(30:46):
how do you approach this, and how do you how
do you decide if you're going to be the sheep
dog that takes care of yourself and your family or
you decide I'm just not going to do that because
that's just inconvenient. I don't know how you end up there.
Give me a call, let me know what you think
about this. Eight sixty six Talk Gun. It is a
(31:07):
heavy subject. I get that, I understand, but look, the
whole idea of gear versus training is one that we
will always have. I'd love to get your take. We'll
be right back. Do you want to have a special
rifle that can do almost everything and that your friends
don't have? Hi? I'm Tom Gresham, host of Gun Talk,
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That will certainly get you in here. Let's talk to
Derek line three, because I was hoping we would get
to the subject, but he just called in and Derek,
you're gonna bring it up, So go for it, man.
Speaker 9 (33:47):
Yeah, I've just had a question. I owned an M
een and going to the range a couple of times.
It's always been a topic of discussion with them having
a misfire or just randomly going off, which I've never
heard before, and it's been something that we've talked about,
and that's maybe actually contemplate switching firearms because that is
(34:10):
my daily carry, but I had issues with it.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah, we're talking about the cig see eighteen, which is
also the P three twenty, and what's been going on
with that. Of course, this is the handgun that's adopted
by the US military. There have been a number of
reports of these guns, as we say, just going off,
and traditionally, I mean, you know, the drill, We've always said,
(34:35):
you know, yeah, people say that when they pull the
trigger ended up shooting themselves and they've got to find
a way to cover it up. And that's what we
all thought was going on for the longest time. There
are now a number of videos out with guns going
off that are in holsters, people not touching them. And
then this past week you may have seen the news
out of I think a street board out of Barksdale
(34:57):
Air Force Base. An airman took his pistol off in
the holster. Supposedly or allegedly, the gun was sitting in
a holster on a desk and it goes off while
it's in the holster and shoots him and kills him.
That section of the Air Force immediately put out an
order and said, don't use these guns. You can't carry
(35:20):
these pistols. Gun Sight, the famous training facility in Arizona
put out a letter that said the SIG P three
to twenty pistol will no longer be allowed on our range.
FRC Range and bat Rouge put out the same letter
says the P three twenty went a long or be
allowed on our range. Others are doing the same thing.
(35:43):
I I would just tell you, I don't know. People say,
what do you think. I don't know. I think SIGBA
sig has probably mishandled the pr on this. I don't
know what they know about this. If there's something going on,
is it possible this gun is going off? Well, the
(36:05):
Gray Guns, who do they do? Trigger mods and aftermarket
triggers and things. They said they were able to find
a particular set of circumstances where they put it's like
a tolerance stacking where you if you do this and
this and this, they could actually get it to go
off without pulling the trigger. Okay, that's troublesome. I don't
(36:28):
know what happens to SIG as a result of this.
I think they're in real trouble now. The question is,
and Derek, going back to you, what do you do?
Do you carry this gun? Does it bother you? What
are you gonna do? Oh? Must have lost Derek. Okay,
(36:50):
all right, I put the question out on the floor.
If you have a SIG P three twenty or an
M seventeen or a M eighteen, what are you gonna do?
Are you Are you going to continue to carry it?
Are you worried about these reports of these guns going
off uncommanded without pulling the trigger? There are oh there was,
(37:12):
I guess I just saw a report that SIG was
suing a police academy because the police Academy said they're
not going to allow the gun it's getting really weird.
I don't know where the truth lies. I would love
to be able to tell you this is what's going on,
(37:33):
and this is what you should do, or this is
what I would do. Now I am seeing people say, well,
you are sick, just should be breakcotted and go out
of business. We should drive them out of business. That
one concerns me. And maybe it's the longevity I have
having watched people try to put Ruger out of business
thirty years ago or something that Bill Ruger said, then
(37:55):
trying to put Smith and Wesson out of business twenty
years ago, actually more like thirty years ago now for
something that their president did. Now they're under new management.
Ruger's under U management, Smith Weston under new management. I
got a problem with us trying to put gun companies
out of business because isn't that what the gun banners do.
At the same time, I sure want them to get
(38:16):
their act together. I think it's fair to say that
I don't know what that costant what's going to cost
it you getting your act together, But calling to destroy
a gun company and put all those American workers out
of work causes me a concern. So I guess the
question on the floor, I throw this out for your calls,
your comments, is if you have a cig P three twenty,
(38:39):
what are you going to do? I actually have people say, well,
I'm not going to carry up for three sixty five.
I will because I do. It doesn't bother me. It's lights,
different pistol, different mechanisms. I'm not worried about that. But yeah,
I don't know where this is going to end up.
But right now it's a mess. And if the US
government says, see, you've got to take all these back,
(39:00):
I don't know if that's survivable. I don't know. Hey,
we'll be right back. Hey, I'm so glad that you
were here. We're having a good time talking about guns
and shooting and well but talking about self defense for
guns too, but also just a recreational part of it,
going out to the range and having some fun taking
people out shooting at the range with them and going
(39:22):
hunting all the rest of it. If you have a
comment or a question, eight six' six talk gun is
our number that'll get you in. Here john called in
out Of Central. Texas, Hey, john you got a question for? Me? Here, Yeah, tom.
Speaker 10 (39:35):
You mentioned that THE fbi has a stat where it
shows more people are killed by uh fist and fate versus.
Anguys my son is arguing with me over The.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Okay, yeah, no that's not the correct Stat the correct
stat is that more people are killed with fists and
feet than are killed by rifles or ar fifteen's not. Handguns, Okay,
yeah that comes from the FBI's uniform crime. Reports they
put out a report every year and there's an amalgamation
of the crime stats from around the, country and the
(40:09):
number of people killed just actually not even just air,
fifteens but by rifles in, general all rifles is a
smaller number that people who are killed with fists and.
Feet and so when people are always yammered about air
fifteens or quote unquote assault, rifles you, know say you understand.
THAT i, mean while any murder is, bad more people
(40:31):
are actually murdered with fist and feet than they are
where they are.
Speaker 10 (40:34):
Fifteens, okay, GREAT i appreciate, it you.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Bet all, right appreciate. That let's Grab. Charlie we've got
time to get him in here online. One Hey, Charlie, Hey,
tom how's it going? TODAY i am, great what's on your?
Speaker 9 (40:48):
Mind, YES i got a questions lord all Will husen.
Website AND i noticed that the smokeless powder price is
really shut.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
Up for a the last few.
Speaker 9 (40:59):
Years what is going on with?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
That, well several. Things one have you looked at the
price of? Houses houses have gone up a whole bunch,
too has to have, cars has everything. Else so you
got basic inflation. Working then you also have a shortage
of nitro cell, yulose which is used in the making of.
Gunpowder where's that? Going oh, yeah there's a war In
(41:21):
ukraine and other, places and we've got all. This when
they fill up a one hundred and fifty five millimeter
one fifty five, hour, sir or a millimeter or a cannon,
round they use an awful lot of, powder a whole
lot more than we. Do and so we kind of
got a little bit of a shortage of nitro Cellulos
so that's driving it. Up BUT i, HONESTLY i think
(41:43):
most of it is just basic. Inflation here's the, Problem.
Charlie you AND i have the same, problem and that
is we remember what things used to cost and start
with sound like our grand pappy where you? Go, WELL
i remember back when you could Buy, YEAH i, Know,
DAD i got. That and here we are we're doing
the same. Thing we're geezing talking about what things used to.
Cost and, yes powder has gone, up but then, again
(42:05):
projectiles and bullets have gone, up and primers have gone,
up and everything's gone. Up it's, like, okay it's just
kind of what it. Is if you were starting out,
today would we upset about the price of powder if
you didn't know what it used to? Cost that's an interesting. QUESTION,
yep that's for my. Question all, right good. DEAL i, Appreciate. Charlie,
(42:28):
yeah it's kind of where we. Are it's, like, okay,
yeah things have gone. Up we're just talking to the
other day about housing prices going up and it's like
going to like fifty percent or something in the last
five or ten. Years it's it's kind of crazy how
much it. Is so you got that. GOING i don't.
KNOW i don't know that there's anything to be done about.
(42:50):
IT i think it's just the price of stuff goes.
Up you know what hasn't gone, up interestingly enough is
the cost of. Guns there are some terrific price this
is right, now really good, deals And i'm talking about
right now in the middle of the summer of twenty twenty. Five,
frankly if you are at all interested in guns And
(43:10):
ammo and you're not, BUYING i think you're missing. Out
we're gonna look back and, say, wow can you believe
how low the prices were in summer of twenty twenty.
Five then they're gonna come back and you're gonna, go, oh,
manly should have bought. Stuff, THEN i, Mean ammo is
at an incredibly low. Price there are some smoking. Deals, well,
look sales are. Down gun companies are slashing. Prices amimal
(43:30):
companies are slashing. Prices they're having a. Sale and if
you're not buying, NOW i think you're missing. Out eight
six six Talk. Gun we'll be right back with more gun.
Talk
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