In This Hour:
-- The federal excise tax on firearms and ammunition has been around for a century. Now some are saying it's unconstitutional. Larry Keane, from the National Shooting Sports Foundation, explains how the money is used and why it guarantees "A seat at the table."
-- The focus may currently be on semi-auto firearms, but the goal from the beginning was to ban private ownership of handguns. That's still the plan.
-- What does winning look like in the Second Amendment fight?
Gun Talk 05.31.26 Hour 2
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
-- The federal excise tax on firearms and ammunition has been around for a century. Now some are saying it's unconstitutional. Larry Keane, from the National Shooting Sports Foundation, explains how the money is used and why it guarantees "A seat at the table."
-- The focus may currently be on semi-auto firearms, but the goal from the beginning was to ban private ownership of handguns. That's still the plan.
-- What does winning look like in the Second Amendment fight?
Gun Talk 05.31.26 Hour 2
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 5 (00:31):
All right, we're back with you. I'm Tom Gresham. This
is gun Talk. We have hit a million followers on
the gun Talk Facebook page. If you're not followers over there,
you need to do that, honestly. It's where we post
a lot of videos that might not make it out
on YouTube. YouTube it's rottles or blocks or stops posting
(00:54):
up some gun videos. Or on Facebook we can get
them all out. So if you follow us, it's just
look for Talk on Facebook. You'll be able to see
us over there. It's a sorry sucking down the cleriton
and everything else. Still got the allergies going spring us
here and it's blooming, so I'll hit that cough button occasionally,
(01:15):
but I'll stay with you. Don't go anywhere thinking about
what's been going on recently, and I think four states
now have banned or in the process of banning clocks
and clock type pistols. The ideas they're saying, well, these
can be modified to go full auto. Of course, doing
(01:38):
that is against the law. I mean, that would be
a felony to do that. People do it now? Are
they being prosecuted? That's a whole different issue. Understand that
when they pass a law that bans clocks and block
type pistols, those that have a cruciform trigger set up,
(02:00):
it's about sixty five percent of the gun sold on
the market today. It's banning sixty five percent of handguns.
It's sixty five percent of the handguns. I am reminded,
and I want to bring this up because I haven't
talked about this quite some time. Understand that, you know,
(02:25):
there are people like Jerry MITCHELLOK. Who've been around a
long time and can teach you how to shoot. He
can teach you to shoot to revolved, there are people
like Doug Kane who've been around a long time and
can teach you how to shoot a pistol, et cetera,
et cetera. Well, I'm a guy who's been around a
long time and can give you perspective on the gun
control movement, the gun ban movement. I was in high
(02:48):
school debating on the debate team the DoD Bill. The
DoD Bill, once it was passed, became the Gun Control
Act of nineteen sixty eight. Even going further back from that,
my dad was a gun writer and I had access
to all this file so I had articles for back
in the forties and fifties about guns and gun control
(03:11):
and gun bands. So with all that perspective, I want
to tap into that and talk about what's going on today.
This effort to ban glocks because supposedly they can be
modified into fol auto.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
The full little thing has nothing to do with it.
Speaker 5 (03:32):
You got to understand where we started on this and
why we are where we are today. I remember an
article published in about mid fifties. Title of it was
turn in that Handgun, written by a former Scotland Yard
official police officer. The idea is that handguns are used
(03:56):
to commit murders in America. We have way too many handguns,
We have way too many murders, and the way we
deal with crime and murders in America is to get
rid of handguns. I know some of you are saying, well,
that's ridiculous, what a silly idea. Trust me when I
tell you that back then, the most popular polls were
(04:19):
showing that some sixty to seventy percent of Americans listen
to this, sixty to seventy percent of Americans were in
favor of a total ban on handguns. That's changed now,
it's much much lower, although there are some And so
that spawned groups such as the Coalition to Ban Handguns,
(04:41):
which became the Coalition to Control Handguns because they found
out that the term banning handguns didn't go over so
well with the public, and then they changed that to
oh yeah, the Brady Campaign, Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
That's still around. The Brady Group is still around.
Speaker 5 (04:59):
But they started off asked the National Coalition to ban handguns.
And then there was a shift, and this is important
to follow. There was a shift because they figured out, oh,
a lot of Americans own handguns. They don't want their
guns banned, they don't want to have their guns confiscated.
So this is not really going the way we want.
(05:22):
What are we going to do? I know, we'll come
up with a subset of guns. We'll create a category.
We'll just create a category of guns and make it
sound like they're so bad we've got to ban them.
Let's oh, let's call them assault weapons. There's no such thing.
(05:44):
We know that, but the public doesn't know the difference,
and they don't know the difference between full auto and
semi auto, and we could take advantage of that. Hey,
this is not Tom Greshman talking. This is what the
gun banner said back then. That's what they did. So
they create the term assault weapon, and they say, we're
(06:05):
going to work on demonizing that. And now we have
weapons of war, military style blah blah blah blah blah,
other stuff as a way to make them scary sounding.
And now they've convinced a lot of the public that
a thought weapon, which is a term that has no definition.
Of course, it was created its political term. It was
created as a term that they could use to ban
(06:29):
some subset of guns. Understanding while they're doing this, don't
forget what was going on before. The goal was then
and still is to ban all handguns. But they know
they can't do that. But if they can establish that
there are some guns that are just too dangerous, we
(06:51):
just can't have the public owning these and we all
agree this common sense that as thought, weapons cannot be
they hold too many cartridges, they shoot too fast, they're
used in murders, except that, of course, rifles are used
in less than three percent of the murders, and ars
(07:13):
are used in some subset smaller than all rifles. But
here's the thing, and I understand this is the long
view that they're taking here, and this will make sense.
I'll tie it together for you. If they can establish
that there's such a thing as a good gun versus
a bad gun, and if it's a bad gun, we
(07:35):
can get rid of it. We can ban the bad
guns because they're used to murder people.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
All the same.
Speaker 5 (07:44):
At the same time, they understand that these guns are
used in fewer than three percent of the murders. If
and when they could accomplish a band on Semeato's salt weapons,
if you will, then they will immediately turn around and say,
(08:05):
oh wait, look, we just discovered handguns are actually used
to commit far more murders than our rifles.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Huh.
Speaker 5 (08:18):
Well, if we banned the semi auto rifles and they
were used in fewer than three percent of the murders,
we really need to go after the guns that are
used in most of the murders, and they will return
to the handgun ban that they wanted ever since the
(08:39):
fifties and formed groups to accomplish this and wanted to
ban the handguns and figured out it wasn't going to work,
so they shifted.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
That's what's really going on.
Speaker 5 (08:51):
So now we have four states that have banned glocks
and block style pistols. Now it's being challenged in the courts,
and the question under Heller and Bruin, where the Supreme
Court said you cannot ban guns that are in common
use for lawful purposes. Well, these are common guns and
(09:14):
they're clearly being used for lawful purposes. So the question
will be will the courts actually honor Bruin and Heller
and stop these states from banning these commonly owned guns.
I don't know how that's going to go. I mean,
I think we're going to prevail. But I'm currently reading
(09:34):
the book Alito, written by Molly Hemingway. Highly recommend it.
She's a very good writer. And you never know what
the courts are going to do. We had almost fifty
years of the Supreme Court acting as a super legislature
where they said, you know, we're just going to accomplish
the things that the legislature, the Congress won't do because
(09:56):
it needs to be done because the country needs it.
Whether or not it's lee go whether or not it's
mentioned in the Constitution, we're just going to make it up.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
And they did.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
Now we're past that to a large extent. Who have
a better Supreme Court, but you never know what you're
going to get out of them. So that's what's going
on there, just kind of bringing you up to speed
of what's going on. The other takeaway from all of
this is simple, and that is once you decide you're
(10:29):
going to become a Second Amendment warrior, it is a
lifetime enlistment. You are here for the duration because it
will never go away.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
They will never stop trying to ban guns.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
And when I say band guns, I mean all guns, rifles, shotguns, handguns,
all of them. Actually had one of the guys from
Tom Diez is his name with Violence of Policies and
early on in gun Talk and the gun Talk radio,
way way way long time ago, and I asked him,
I said, well, if you could be king for day,
(11:07):
you could wave your magic wand get anything done. What
would you want he said, well, I'd get rid of
all the guns. I said, well, I'm thinking wow, he
said it out loud. How about that? I said, well,
what about the police? He said, ah, once we get
rid of all the guns, the police won't need theirs either.
There you have it. That is where they are, That's
where their thinking is. Once we get rid of all
(11:31):
the guns, the police won't need theirs and will all
be better off. Of course, the criminals will, of course
obey the laws, because that's what criminals do, right. Yeah, right,
So that's where we are today, and I want to
give that perspective. They have never given up on the
idea of banning handguns. They just realized they weren't going
(11:51):
to be able to get it done then, and they
have gone to a different way of approaching it. And
if it's a thirty year or a fifty year plan,
that's okay with them because they're there for the duration.
And we have to be too simple as that. All right,
eight six' six talk gun Or tom. Talkgun that'll get
you in. Here I'm Tom gresher be right.
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Speaker 5 (15:00):
Right carrying on, here let's go talk To joe And, Jefferson.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Texas, Hey, joe thank you for your. Patience you have the.
Speaker 11 (15:07):
Floor, Hey, tom you know WHEN i listened to Gun
talk every, week one of the other THINGS i learned
is from in family frying the addouncer's how to store my,
gunlock unloaded and away From. Emma so That's. Joe so
that's not WHAT i called. About WHAT i called about
was to tell you THAT i started shooting late in,
(15:27):
life but a good go get training and even, SO
i learned the four rules of gun safety early. On
CAN i see be kind of a foome here on
your program? Today SO i just thought to tell you
a couple of EXPERIENCES i, had, sure and they're not
Something i'm proud. Of it's actually very. Embarrassing but you,
KNOW i would encourage people that if you will follow
(15:48):
the four gun, rules you can actually sometimes break one
and the other two or three will catch you and
keep you. Safe and that's What i've had. Happened, WELL
i had two and twenty. Years but each TIME i
was talking to my range buddies and THINKING i was
unloading the pistol and let the slide go, forward pull
(16:12):
the trigger with it pointing at the ground and goes
off and it's like man was, embarrason but thank, goodness,
no not none the worse for. It so just a learning.
Experience won't be talking and distracted When i'm loading and
unloading my.
Speaker 5 (16:28):
Weapon so rule number two saved. You who never point
your gun to anything you're not willing to.
Speaker 11 (16:34):
Destroy that's, Right, yep each TIME i had it in
a safe, direction and so that that rule saved. Me you,
KNOW i, SAID i got a fund of an ego,
bruise but that's a minor.
Speaker 5 (16:48):
Thing it's you, know you make a good point is
that when WE'RE i think about handling guns the WAY
i think about flying airplanes is when you're, there you've
got to be there, mentally all there and there's nothing.
Else and if you're, distracted you need to, stop figure
out what's going on and start over. Again because trying
(17:10):
to handle a gun while you're having a different conversation
with somebody, else that where you're not really thinking about.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
It as you point, out that's a recipe for a.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Disaster, Yep i'll know it for.
Speaker 5 (17:23):
Real, Yeah So i'm glad nobody got. Hurt, now how
else have the four rules helped you?
Speaker 11 (17:29):
Out, Well, well that's the first. Thing it kept me
from injuring myself or someone. Else they've helped me to
Be they've helped me to teach others how to be
safe and not be scared of. Guns follow the four
rules and follow them, assiduously you, know, obsessive compulsively and, yes,
(17:52):
yes and so teaching that to other People i've. Seen in,
FACT i had a couple of young ladies out on
the range of the, day and you, know it just
helps them to become more. Confident just always learn the
four rules and practice, them and you don't have to
be scared of.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Guns, yeah that's a great.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
Point and the thing, IS i know people sometimes will
want to add rules to. It, no, no, no, No the
four rules work just. Fine we don't need. Anymore and
they're short enough and easy enough to remember to. MEMORIZE i,
Mean i've seen videos of young young kids reciting four
rules of gun. Safety so, Hey, joe thank you for the.
Call appreciate. That, yeah it's real. Simple you can get
(18:30):
them printed.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Up you. SHOULD i, HAVE i guess two of the.
Speaker 5 (18:35):
Metal signs they sell over it at gun sight with
four rules on, them And i've got one put up
above my reloading. BENCH i can't remember WHERE i have
the other, one but they're good to put up at different,
places just as. Reminders and a lot of rangers have
the four rules put, up usually in the original. Form
sometimes they'll make a, change a little tweak here and,
(18:55):
there and that's. Okay but the four rules are. Basic
if you miss, them let me give them to you,
again BECAUSE i do have a. Memorized number, one all
guns are always.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Loaded what does that? Mean, well clearly we know they're.
Speaker 5 (19:08):
Not always, loaded because we just downloaded, one BUT i loaded,
it but we treated as though it's. Loaded we treat
every gun as though it's. Loaded, period parade rest always.
Period that means just no. Exceptions we treat all guns
as though they are. Loaded fair, enough. Okay number. Two
never point the muzzle at anything you're not willing to.
(19:30):
Destroy that would be your, hand your, knee your, foot your,
dog a wall when there's somebody on the other side
of the wall that you wouldn't want to. Shoot oh,
yeah because both go through walls really. Easily it's where
are you pointing your? Gun and As joe, said it's
(19:53):
got to be like crazy compulsive about, it just like, always, always,
Always i'm careful where my muzzle is. Pointed number, three
don't put your finger on the trigger until your sights
are on the. Target if your guns pointed down range
and the sights are on the target and you touch
(20:16):
the trigger and it goes off and you didn't mean
for it, too it could be a little, embarrassing but
nobody's gonna get. Shot the shot went down. Range so
keep your finger off the cotton picking. Trigger, okay it
doesn't mean like with a handgun where you're laid it
alongside the trigger.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Guard, no stick it up there alongside the. Slide if you.
Speaker 5 (20:39):
Place it over the top of the trigger, guard eventually
something's going to. Happen you're gonna get startled. Something that
finger is going to slide into the trigger guard and
hit the, trigger and the gun's going to make a
really loud. Noise so if you keep your finger up
along the, slide then you're not going to do. That
(21:00):
so that's number. Three keep your finger off the, trigger
into the, sight straw on the. Target number four is
know your target and what's behind. It identify your. Target
and you may be, thinking, Well i'm in the. Range
what's the big deal? Now, no, no, No the four wheels
of gun safety apply. Everywhere the four rules of gun.
Safety actually we're created for. Gunfighting we use them everywhere
(21:23):
else because they. Work but in a gunfight or self defense,
situation identifying your target is, critical and knowing what's behind.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
It it's.
Speaker 5 (21:34):
Critical you got a bad guy and you need to
shoot the bad, guy but you got.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
A bus full of nuns and orphans behind the bad.
Guy you can't shoot at.
Speaker 5 (21:45):
Him you must do something, different whether you're moving to
the side to get a different angle so now you've
opened up the, background or you've moved forwards so you
can drop down to a knee and shoot upward so
that the bullet's not going to go toward this school
bus full of nuns and orphans. Stuff you got to
(22:05):
think about what WOULD i do? If is there a
brick wall back? There, yeah that'll. Work is there just
a store back there with people in? It now that's
not going to. WORK i don't like that. BACKGROUND i
don't want to be flinging bullets back. There i'm not
one hundred percent That i'm going to hit this bad
guy with every shot because he may be moving. Around
four rules of gun. Safe to commit them to, memory
(22:27):
recyite them, off and teach them to.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Movies they're really. WORTHWHILE i, mean all, right we're. Back
let me get to.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
This earlier in the, WEEK i set off a little
bit of a firestorm on x you, know Formerly, twitter
WHEN i posted something that really got people stirred. Up, now,
LOOK i haven't known to be guilty about saying something
just to get people stirred up and watch the. REACTION
i got a lot of reaction to, this AND i
want to throw it out there for discussion and your.
(23:01):
Reaction here's the background BEFORE i run this. Interview for
almost one hundred, years The Pittman Robertson act has placed
a tax on firearms and ammunition eleven percent on long
guns and, ammunition ten percent on. Handguns that's an excise
tax is paid by the, manufacturers and, obviously like all,
(23:23):
taxes it just gets built into the price that we,
pay and that has gone to find a lot of
very good. Things, however the question now is is a
tax on guns?
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Constitutional can you tax A Second? Amendment?
Speaker 5 (23:41):
Right and, further it gets complicated because evidently some states
now are, saying, oh or there's an excise tax on
the federal, level we'll apply another excise tax on guns
AND ammo on the state. Level and so instead of
being attacks that used to build ranges and to preserve
(24:03):
wildlife and do some good, things it now looks like
it's starting to become. Punitive so tell you. What here's
an INTERVIEW i did this, week and then after, that
let's have the conversation and you tell me what you
think about the idea of there being a federal tax
(24:25):
on firearms and. Ammunition get, ready you can give me
a call at eight six to Six talk gun Or
Tom Talk. Gun now here's that CONVERSATION i had earlier
in the. Week Larry king from The National Shooting Sports. Foundation,
LARRY i would introduce, you but you got so many titles,
now senior vice president and legal, counsel AND i don't
know what all you're doing these, days.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
The guy who puts the garbage out on.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
One how long have you been AT? INNSSF i just
passed twenty six?
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Years?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Wow, yeah, man have you really been?
Speaker 5 (24:58):
A National Shooting Sports foundation is the trade association for
the farms. Industry you, know whether you're making guns or
selling guns or being a distributor or. Whatever so you
basically represent all of. Them and there's something else that
has happened over the last five ten. Years it's much
more involved in legislation and litigation as it relates to
(25:21):
the consumers as well on The Second amendment.
Speaker 12 (25:23):
Front, Absolutely i'm the Thing i'm most proud about in
my twenty six years nss is the growth of our
government relations capacity or public, affairs our, research our legal
work in Protecting Second amendment rights and challenging vans on
rifles and, magazines. Etc so you, KNOW nssf has changed
(25:46):
considerably for the. Good, yeah you know my twenty six,
years no.
Speaker 5 (25:51):
Doubt and you know people are, Seeing, okay N ssf
is involved in a number of the lawsuits and that's,
visible but.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
You also do things that are kind of not as.
Speaker 5 (26:01):
Visible it's like working With congress and then taking meetings
and or WITH atf people are you, know they're lambasting
THE atf, you but you're working with those folks and,
Actually i'm just going to blow your cover here behind
a lot of the changes that we just saw announced
By Todd.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
Blanche, well thank, You.
Speaker 12 (26:20):
TOM i, mean we pride ourselves on having a working
relationship with the. Regulators there's no currency in you, know
a sports starth. Approach you have to make your, argument your.
Case you can disagree, strenuously.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
But you can do.
Speaker 12 (26:39):
That you, know professional, matter and we do that all the,
time and we have in the past SUIT. Atf BUT
i will say, that you, know the relationship with the,
ADMINISTRATION doj AND atf has never been, better particularly coming
off of a buid.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Administration it was, very very, contentious very.
Speaker 12 (26:58):
Hostile me have the former president referred to the industry
as quote the enemy close.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Quote so there's a new sheriff in town in.
Speaker 5 (27:07):
This you, know let's talk about one other thing BEFORE
i want to get to the subject we want to talk.
About but for, many, many many, years you know, this
we watched. This you get AND i get. It some
of this is, fundraising it's, marketing it's we're the only
no compromise. GROUP i hear all the, time and no,
compromise no, Compromise and you AND i know from doing
(27:27):
this for. Decades, look there's, compromise which MEANS i give.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Up but that's not what we're.
Speaker 5 (27:33):
Doing if you, say, Okay i'm going to fight hard
AND i can only get fifty percent of WHAT i want,
Today i'll take the fifty.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Percent that's not. Compromise is it.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Not in my.
Speaker 12 (27:43):
Mind, look politics is often called the art of, compromise
and you can achieve policy. Objectives you may not get
everything you want all at, once but you take crown
and you come back and you fight for more of
the next. Day that's the way you have to approach.
This if you demand, perfection then you let perfection be
(28:06):
the enemy of the good and you end up with.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
Nothing and so it's better to take ground and come.
Speaker 12 (28:10):
Back and you, know and when the horror is the
other side, says well will occur if the policy is,
adopted doesn't, happen you go back and you argue for,
war and you argue for additional dropping the restrictions and
more freedoms and protections for The Second. Amendment so compromise
is not, surrendered compromises making progress.
Speaker 5 (28:32):
Exactly it makes no sense to Say i'm not going
to take WHAT i can get today because i can't
get it. All that's just, childish in, naive.
Speaker 12 (28:40):
Frankly and we've unfortunately seen that recurring basis where your
demands are made that are just not, feasible, untenable and
SO i would rather achieve something, constructive you, Know and
that doesn't mean you're surrendering your.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Principles but you do understand it folks who are on the.
Speaker 5 (29:00):
Outside, now on the, inside you're working with this all the,
time and you're looking at and, Say, okay we can
get this. Done now that other. Thing we're not going
to get it all today or even this. Year we're
gonna have to come. Back but if you're on the,
outside you don't know what the. Conversation you, Say, well
why couldn't we just just do? It, man just just
make it.
Speaker 12 (29:17):
Happen, YEAH i, MEAN i certainly appreciate the frustration people have,
that you, Know congress doesn't at fast, enough and it's
a FRUSTRATION i personally share at.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Times but you know.
Speaker 12 (29:33):
It's Not congress is not designed to move, quickly particularly The.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Senate it's it's designed to be a check on the you,
know motions of The.
Speaker 12 (29:41):
House if you read history of The federal's papers and
things like. That so you know that's what the democracy is.
About the debate ideas and hopefully the better argument. Wins
but you got to play the long, game achieved what
is achievable at the, time.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
And come back and fight another. Day all.
Speaker 5 (30:00):
Right as much AS i hate, taxes all, taxes the
excise tax on guns AND. Ammo it seems like right
now there's an effort to, say, well that's a tax
on guns is, unconstitutional or we shouldn't have it or,
something AND i just want to, say, wait, wait back.
Up you need to understand about The Pittman robertson. Actic
can you take it from?
Speaker 2 (30:20):
There?
Speaker 12 (30:21):
Sure, LOOK i, mean there's a very good argument that
tax is paid by consumers on the exercise of The
Second amendment is problematic and they very well be. Unconstitutional
but what people don't understand is that The Pittman robertson excise,
tax that, tax which is paid by, manufacturers not by the,
(30:42):
consumer has been in existence since surround nineteen. THIRTEEN i
believe in nineteen thirty sixty, seven The Pittman Robertson act was,
adopted and it was the industry and conservation groups that
requested that this tax be applied to wildlife conservation because
(31:03):
at the time wildlife was struggling lightly in The, states
and we've seen tremendous gains.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
On that front since The Bitmer Robertson.
Speaker 12 (31:14):
Act but it's important to understand that the tax is
paid by manufacturers and importers eleven percent have for long
runs and ammunition and ten percent for. Handguns and we
know what that money goes. Towards it is the primary
source of conservation. Funding it's, distributed it's collected By, treasury
(31:35):
distributed BY Us fish And Wildlife service to The, states
and as the primary source of conservation funding in The United.
States it's really not correct to say that the tax
is paid by the consumer any more than you would
say the consumer pays the electric bill or the insurance
or the. Labor it gets paid into the overall pricing the.
(31:57):
Good AND i don't think anyone would say that charging
a manufacturer for electricity infringes upon The Second, amendment, Right
so it's not paid by the consumer.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Directly it's in an indirect.
Speaker 12 (32:12):
Sense the consumer pays for electricity and labor like they
do for any, product but it's baked into the cost
of the of the. Product and it is it's a
tax that the industry, asked, uh you, know, well used
for wildlife.
Speaker 5 (32:26):
Company the industry and hunters and gun owners all asked
whether this tax to be. Used and AM i right
that even if you're not a, hunter you still get
benefit because a lot of this money is used to
build public shooting.
Speaker 12 (32:38):
Ranges that's correct and increasingly and that's something INN ssef
has been working on a lot the last few years
since that the money it pays for hunter education and
now there have been the legislation THAT nssf is supported
and got. Past it will help for building public shooting.
Ranges rising tides looks all boats and you know people
(33:00):
that never go, hunting but our target, shooters you, know
they get AN roi on their, investment and so there's
more opportunity for public shooting and that's been everything important
thing we've been working on the last several.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Years imagine what would happen if the tax on the
way the.
Speaker 12 (33:16):
Industry and hunters would lose their feet at the table
to anti hunting groups and to.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
You, know preservationists not.
Speaker 12 (33:26):
Conservationists there's a distinction there that's you, know anti.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Hunting, groups animal rights groups would hold. Sway and so you,
know we're very that would not be good for the,
industry would be good for gun owners as.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Well because we can, say, hey we're paying for.
Speaker 5 (33:43):
This we we didn't demand and deserve a seat at
the table because and we're looking AT i don't know
what the number is now it's probably in the five
to six million dollars a.
Speaker 12 (33:53):
Day Significant, again it is the primary source of conservation
funding in The United, states increasingly being used to build shooting.
RANGES i mean now every forest IN vlm section has
got to work with local stakeholders to build a shooting
range in the forest or in THE dlm.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
District so that's an important.
Speaker 12 (34:15):
Development you, know The Public Marksmanship training And Support act
that n it's A sith champion helps to create more
public shooting, opportunity not just. Hunting and again it's also
you know where funding comes from for hunter education.
Speaker 5 (34:32):
CLASSES i just had a thought where we're talking and you,
know because we've both been at this long, enough we
know how the other side. Works if they could eliminate
the tax on, guns the Pitman robertson fee and say,
okay you're not paying any money into, THIS i would
offer that that offers them a door to come back
in and, say you, know the public doesn't need to
be paying for shooting, ranges and the public doesn't need
(34:53):
to be paying for lands where people hunt because we
don't support hunting and we don't support, shooting and let's
just shut all of that. Down that gives them a
huge door to come.
Speaker 12 (35:02):
Through, absolutely you, know the industry, hunters gun owners would
lose their seat at the.
Speaker 5 (35:07):
TABLE i hadn't thought of that until we had the
conversation With, Larry and, LOOK i am conflicted on this particular.
ONE i like the benefits we get out of The
Pittman robertson. Funds it funds hunter safety. Education basically saved
(35:28):
wildlife In. America if you go look at the population
numbers of elk deer turkeys in nineteen, thirty the twenties and,
thirties they were an all time. Low and the money
that came From Pittman roberson, funds the tax on guns
AND ammo Saved america's. Wildlife so it did great. Things and,
(35:49):
now of course we're using it also to build shooting.
Ranges at the same, TIME i have a basic core
problem with a tax on a second, amendment, Right so
that's kind of WHERE i am at the.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Moment But larry made a good.
Speaker 5 (36:10):
Point he, says you, know if we aren't paying the,
money if it just comes from general funds, somewhere then
we don't have a seat at the. Table and Then washington,
speak that means we don't have any say in how
the money is. Used and the gun, banners the anti
hunters come in and, say oh, yeah hunters aren't paying
for this. Anymore gun owners aren't paying for this. Anymore
(36:31):
all this federal land where we've gotten it opened up
through the years for hunting and for. Shooting we should
stop hunting on national. Forest we should stop shooting ON blm.
Property there's no reason for, that and they not only,
can but they would do, that and we could be
(36:54):
ignored because we're just part of the general population and
we're not contributing the. Money is that worth having at
tax on? GUNS i don't. KNOW i would love to
get your take on. THIS i know there are people
who are over on x who are having very strong
(37:14):
opinions about.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
This i'd love to have them come away in.
Speaker 5 (37:18):
Here ALTHOUGH i think sometimes they just love the anonymity
of using a screen name and being able to call
people names and not be responsible for their actions or
what they.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Say there's a lot of that on The.
Speaker 5 (37:29):
Internet if someone told me, recently, says, hey one of
the rules on, axes don't read the comments to your,
post just post it and move. On, yeah BUT i
like having a. Conversation that's WHY i like doing gun,
talk having this conversation where you can call, in can
you tell me what you? Think and you may, say, Hey,
tom you're just. Wrong you're wrong on taxing a. Segonment, right,
(37:52):
fine let's have the. Conversation but you got to call
in for us to have that. Conversation eight sixty Six
talk gun Or tom talk gun will gets you in.
Here so The Pittman, Robert and, look if you're a
hunter safety, instructor you know What i'm talking. About you
know that pr funds have covered that. Completely you know
(38:12):
that that money is being used for a lot of good.
Things AND i guess from a practical, STANDPOINT i would,
say all, right if we, said all, right we can't
tax The Second, amendment we can't tax guns because that
impacts The Second. Amendment, Okay i'm open to suggestions where
(38:34):
we're going to get the, money and is there a
way for us to do it so that we gun
owners and hunters continue to have a say in how
the money is, used so we can keep public lands
open for hunting and public lands open for, shooting and
building more shooting ranges and helping to promote the shooting.
SPORTS i don't, know but, look we've got a lot of, interesting,
(38:59):
smart creative peaceeople out there who could come up with.
Ideas So i'm open to, suggestions and LIKE i, say
i could argue both. WAYS i completely Admit i'm conflicted
on the, thing and any give a, Moment i'll switch
sides on.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
You so there you. Go I'm Tom. Gresham this is gun.
Speaker 5 (39:14):
Talk if you got a comment about, THIS i thought
maybe you could help me understand.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
It, better give me a. Call we'll be right back
with real world.
Speaker 8 (39:29):
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Speaker 5 (39:46):
More More american women than ever are choosing firearms for self.
Protection female gun ownership has climbed one hundred and seventy
seven percent since nineteen, ninety with roughly one in four
women now owning a. Gun since twenty, nineteen sixty eight
percent of new female buyers cite protection as their main.
(40:07):
Reason one in four women has survived severe physical violence
from an intimate. Partner many have learned that police often
arrive too. Late compact concealable handguns top their shopping. Lists
women's specific training courses sell out within, hours and rangers
report female attendants. Doubling in many states with rational carry,
(40:29):
laws firearm companies now market directly to, women showing them as,
confident capable guardians rather than. Sidekicks millions of women are
rejecting helplessness and embracing armed self reliance as the most
reliable insurance policy in an uncertain. World all, right let's
(41:05):
go straight to the, Phones greg's And Eagle Point Oregon.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Online. One, Oh, greg you've made it into gun.
Speaker 13 (41:10):
Talk talk to, me all, right this is my first time,
calling So i'm kind of. Nervous but WHEN i was,
Eighteen i'm sixty seven, now but WHEN i was, EIGHTEEN
i DID i transgressed.
Speaker 11 (41:21):
And did an arm. Lobbery BUT i feel.
Speaker 13 (41:25):
Like i'm still being. PUNISHED i haven't had my rights,
restored And i'm not sure if that's what you probably
have talked about, it BUT i just haven't been fortunate
enough to catch that show you're doing.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
That, well that's changing.
Speaker 5 (41:38):
Here it's about like two twenty five years, ago The
democrats went in and yanked the money out of the
budget where people could go and get their rights, restored
applied to THE atf and get the rights, restored and
so they didn't want convicted felons from being able to
own guns ever for the rest of their. Lives and
of Course i'm of the opinion that, hey you served
your time or you, paid your punishment should be over
(42:00):
and you should have all your rights. Back, well we're
working to get that. Back Under, trump The department Of
justice AND atf are working on rights restoration legislation to
try to get that. Done they're doing it right now
on a case by case basis a bit, more but it's,
slow and it's a little bit cumbersome and honestly a
little bit. TROUBLESOME i was kind of hoping they would
(42:20):
be moving, faster AND i know they're, busy but we're
working on.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
It and that's not much consolation to.
Speaker 5 (42:28):
YOU i know that you have waited a half a
century trying to get your rights, back but you, know
that's ALL i can tell you, IS i know it's
being worked on and there are people who are talking about, it.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
But as of right, NOW i don't know where we, Are.
Telly What i'm going to.
Speaker 5 (42:43):
Do i'm going to work on getting somebody from the
federal government on the, show or somebody who knows about it,
anyway to come on in the next week or so
and we could discuss it and maybe we'll get an
update on. THAT i hope you'll be able to listen
in and we can get you some information on.
Speaker 13 (42:58):
That, Okay, YEAH i appreciate. It thanks you for your.
Speaker 11 (43:01):
SHOW i appreciate it very.
Speaker 5 (43:02):
Much Thanks, GREG i appreciate the. Call here's a question for,
you and this kind of goes to the whole internet.
Conversation If i'm more pure than you, are is the
question is this is winning incrementally the same as, compromise
(43:23):
because you've got some people who, say you, know we
didn't win, everything so that was a, compromise so they
consider that to be a. Loss And i've always been
of the opinion that if you can win half of
it and then come back for more, later that's a.
Win and, yes sometimes it's really disappointing to not be
able to win it. All but the people who work
(43:44):
In congress or legislators will tell, you, look sometimes you're
just not going to win it. All it's not in the,
cards it's not on the. Table it's not going to
happen no matter what you, do no matter how righteous
you think your cause is, today this, week this, year
it's not going to. Happen but we can get you
some of. It so the question is is it? Compromising
(44:11):
is it? Caving is it surrendering to take part of
what you want with the idea of coming back and
trying to get more of it.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Later and the REASON i bring.
Speaker 5 (44:21):
It up is because you GOT i call them the chest,
thumpers the holier than, that more pure than you.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Are we're the only true no compromise that amendment.
Speaker 5 (44:32):
Group, yeah, yeah, yeah, YEAH i, know get. It, jeez
give me a. Break but it does raise. Money it
raises funds by saying.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
We're the new compromise.
Speaker 5 (44:41):
Group, okay, sure when you don't, compromise you generally don't win. Anything,
Man i'll take fifty percent this, year fifty of what's
left next, year fifty percent of what's left after that next.
Year you see where we're, going. Right we call that.
Winning we lost a lot of our g writes incrementally
over many many. Years we're we're not going to get
(45:04):
them all back. Instantly we're getting back past and, Frankly
i'm frustrated like everybody, else BECAUSE i want it right,
now BECAUSE i know we have this narrow window during
The trump era when The democrats take over, again and
they will they will try to.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
Undo as much of this as.
Speaker 5 (45:19):
Possible SO i want to push this thing as far
as we, can so when the rubber band snaps, back
it doesn't come all the way back to where we.
Were maybe it comes halfway. Back we're back to that fifty.
Percent they. Again I'm Tom. Gresham this is gun.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
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Speaker 5 (00:31):
All right, we're back with you. I'm Tom Gresham. This
is gun Talk. We have hit a million followers on
the gun Talk Facebook page. If you're not followers over there,
you need to do that, honestly. It's where we post
a lot of videos that might not make it out
on YouTube. YouTube it's rottles or blocks or stops posting
(00:54):
up some gun videos. Or on Facebook we can get
them all out. So if you follow us, it's just
look for Talk on Facebook. You'll be able to see
us over there. It's a sorry sucking down the cleriton
and everything else. Still got the allergies going spring us
here and it's blooming, so I'll hit that cough button occasionally,
(01:15):
but I'll stay with you. Don't go anywhere thinking about
what's been going on recently, and I think four states
now have banned or in the process of banning clocks
and clock type pistols. The ideas they're saying, well, these
can be modified to go full auto. Of course, doing
(01:38):
that is against the law. I mean, that would be
a felony to do that. People do it now? Are
they being prosecuted? That's a whole different issue. Understand that
when they pass a law that bans clocks and block
type pistols, those that have a cruciform trigger set up,
(02:00):
it's about sixty five percent of the gun sold on
the market today. It's banning sixty five percent of handguns.
It's sixty five percent of the handguns. I am reminded,
and I want to bring this up because I haven't
talked about this quite some time. Understand that, you know,
(02:25):
there are people like Jerry MITCHELLOK. Who've been around a
long time and can teach you how to shoot. He
can teach you to shoot to revolved, there are people
like Doug Kane who've been around a long time and
can teach you how to shoot a pistol, et cetera,
et cetera. Well, I'm a guy who's been around a
long time and can give you perspective on the gun
control movement, the gun ban movement. I was in high
(02:48):
school debating on the debate team the DoD Bill. The
DoD Bill, once it was passed, became the Gun Control
Act of nineteen sixty eight. Even going further back from that,
my dad was a gun writer and I had access
to all this file so I had articles for back
in the forties and fifties about guns and gun control
(03:11):
and gun bands. So with all that perspective, I want
to tap into that and talk about what's going on today.
This effort to ban glocks because supposedly they can be
modified into fol auto.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
The full little thing has nothing to do with it.
Speaker 5 (03:32):
You got to understand where we started on this and
why we are where we are today. I remember an
article published in about mid fifties. Title of it was
turn in that Handgun, written by a former Scotland Yard
official police officer. The idea is that handguns are used
(03:56):
to commit murders in America. We have way too many handguns,
We have way too many murders, and the way we
deal with crime and murders in America is to get
rid of handguns. I know some of you are saying, well,
that's ridiculous, what a silly idea. Trust me when I
tell you that back then, the most popular polls were
(04:19):
showing that some sixty to seventy percent of Americans listen
to this, sixty to seventy percent of Americans were in
favor of a total ban on handguns. That's changed now,
it's much much lower, although there are some And so
that spawned groups such as the Coalition to Ban Handguns,
(04:41):
which became the Coalition to Control Handguns because they found
out that the term banning handguns didn't go over so
well with the public, and then they changed that to
oh yeah, the Brady Campaign, Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
That's still around. The Brady Group is still around.
Speaker 5 (04:59):
But they started off asked the National Coalition to ban handguns.
And then there was a shift, and this is important
to follow. There was a shift because they figured out, oh,
a lot of Americans own handguns. They don't want their
guns banned, they don't want to have their guns confiscated.
So this is not really going the way we want.
(05:22):
What are we going to do? I know, we'll come
up with a subset of guns. We'll create a category.
We'll just create a category of guns and make it
sound like they're so bad we've got to ban them.
Let's oh, let's call them assault weapons. There's no such thing.
(05:44):
We know that, but the public doesn't know the difference,
and they don't know the difference between full auto and
semi auto, and we could take advantage of that. Hey,
this is not Tom Greshman talking. This is what the
gun banner said back then. That's what they did. So
they create the term assault weapon, and they say, we're
(06:05):
going to work on demonizing that. And now we have
weapons of war, military style blah blah blah blah blah,
other stuff as a way to make them scary sounding.
And now they've convinced a lot of the public that
a thought weapon, which is a term that has no definition.
Of course, it was created its political term. It was
created as a term that they could use to ban
(06:29):
some subset of guns. Understanding while they're doing this, don't
forget what was going on before. The goal was then
and still is to ban all handguns. But they know
they can't do that. But if they can establish that
there are some guns that are just too dangerous, we
(06:51):
just can't have the public owning these and we all
agree this common sense that as thought, weapons cannot be
they hold too many cartridges, they shoot too fast, they're
used in murders, except that, of course, rifles are used
in less than three percent of the murders, and ars
(07:13):
are used in some subset smaller than all rifles. But
here's the thing, and I understand this is the long
view that they're taking here, and this will make sense.
I'll tie it together for you. If they can establish
that there's such a thing as a good gun versus
a bad gun, and if it's a bad gun, we
(07:35):
can get rid of it. We can ban the bad
guns because they're used to murder people.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
All the same.
Speaker 5 (07:44):
At the same time, they understand that these guns are
used in fewer than three percent of the murders. If
and when they could accomplish a band on Semeato's salt weapons,
if you will, then they will immediately turn around and say,
(08:05):
oh wait, look, we just discovered handguns are actually used
to commit far more murders than our rifles.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Huh.
Speaker 5 (08:18):
Well, if we banned the semi auto rifles and they
were used in fewer than three percent of the murders,
we really need to go after the guns that are
used in most of the murders, and they will return
to the handgun ban that they wanted ever since the
(08:39):
fifties and formed groups to accomplish this and wanted to
ban the handguns and figured out it wasn't going to work,
so they shifted.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
That's what's really going on.
Speaker 5 (08:51):
So now we have four states that have banned glocks
and block style pistols. Now it's being challenged in the courts,
and the question under Heller and Bruin, where the Supreme
Court said you cannot ban guns that are in common
use for lawful purposes. Well, these are common guns and
(09:14):
they're clearly being used for lawful purposes. So the question
will be will the courts actually honor Bruin and Heller
and stop these states from banning these commonly owned guns.
I don't know how that's going to go. I mean,
I think we're going to prevail. But I'm currently reading
(09:34):
the book Alito, written by Molly Hemingway. Highly recommend it.
She's a very good writer. And you never know what
the courts are going to do. We had almost fifty
years of the Supreme Court acting as a super legislature
where they said, you know, we're just going to accomplish
the things that the legislature, the Congress won't do because
(09:56):
it needs to be done because the country needs it.
Whether or not it's lee go whether or not it's
mentioned in the Constitution, we're just going to make it up.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
And they did.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
Now we're past that to a large extent. Who have
a better Supreme Court, but you never know what you're
going to get out of them. So that's what's going
on there, just kind of bringing you up to speed
of what's going on. The other takeaway from all of
this is simple, and that is once you decide you're
(10:29):
going to become a Second Amendment warrior, it is a
lifetime enlistment. You are here for the duration because it
will never go away.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
They will never stop trying to ban guns.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
And when I say band guns, I mean all guns, rifles, shotguns, handguns,
all of them. Actually had one of the guys from
Tom Diez is his name with Violence of Policies and
early on in gun Talk and the gun Talk radio,
way way way long time ago, and I asked him,
I said, well, if you could be king for day,
(11:07):
you could wave your magic wand get anything done. What
would you want he said, well, I'd get rid of
all the guns. I said, well, I'm thinking wow, he
said it out loud. How about that? I said, well,
what about the police? He said, ah, once we get
rid of all the guns, the police won't need theirs either.
There you have it. That is where they are, That's
where their thinking is. Once we get rid of all
(11:31):
the guns, the police won't need theirs and will all
be better off. Of course, the criminals will, of course
obey the laws, because that's what criminals do, right. Yeah, right,
So that's where we are today, and I want to
give that perspective. They have never given up on the
idea of banning handguns. They just realized they weren't going
(11:51):
to be able to get it done then, and they
have gone to a different way of approaching it. And
if it's a thirty year or a fifty year plan,
that's okay with them because they're there for the duration.
And we have to be too simple as that. All right,
eight six' six talk gun Or tom. Talkgun that'll get
you in. Here I'm Tom gresher be right.
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Speaker 9 (14:17):
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Speaker 10 (14:46):
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Speaker 5 (15:00):
Right carrying on, here let's go talk To joe And, Jefferson.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Texas, Hey, joe thank you for your. Patience you have the.
Speaker 11 (15:07):
Floor, Hey, tom you know WHEN i listened to Gun
talk every, week one of the other THINGS i learned
is from in family frying the addouncer's how to store my,
gunlock unloaded and away From. Emma so That's. Joe so
that's not WHAT i called. About WHAT i called about
was to tell you THAT i started shooting late in,
(15:27):
life but a good go get training and even, SO
i learned the four rules of gun safety early. On
CAN i see be kind of a foome here on
your program? Today SO i just thought to tell you
a couple of EXPERIENCES i, had, sure and they're not
Something i'm proud. Of it's actually very. Embarrassing but you,
KNOW i would encourage people that if you will follow
(15:48):
the four gun, rules you can actually sometimes break one
and the other two or three will catch you and
keep you. Safe and that's What i've had. Happened, WELL
i had two and twenty. Years but each TIME i
was talking to my range buddies and THINKING i was
unloading the pistol and let the slide go, forward pull
(16:12):
the trigger with it pointing at the ground and goes
off and it's like man was, embarrason but thank, goodness,
no not none the worse for. It so just a learning.
Experience won't be talking and distracted When i'm loading and
unloading my.
Speaker 5 (16:28):
Weapon so rule number two saved. You who never point
your gun to anything you're not willing to.
Speaker 11 (16:34):
Destroy that's, Right, yep each TIME i had it in
a safe, direction and so that that rule saved. Me you,
KNOW i, SAID i got a fund of an ego,
bruise but that's a minor.
Speaker 5 (16:48):
Thing it's you, know you make a good point is
that when WE'RE i think about handling guns the WAY
i think about flying airplanes is when you're, there you've
got to be there, mentally all there and there's nothing.
Else and if you're, distracted you need to, stop figure
out what's going on and start over. Again because trying
(17:10):
to handle a gun while you're having a different conversation
with somebody, else that where you're not really thinking about.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
It as you point, out that's a recipe for a.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Disaster, Yep i'll know it for.
Speaker 5 (17:23):
Real, Yeah So i'm glad nobody got. Hurt, now how
else have the four rules helped you?
Speaker 11 (17:29):
Out, Well, well that's the first. Thing it kept me
from injuring myself or someone. Else they've helped me to
Be they've helped me to teach others how to be
safe and not be scared of. Guns follow the four
rules and follow them, assiduously you, know, obsessive compulsively and, yes,
(17:52):
yes and so teaching that to other People i've. Seen in,
FACT i had a couple of young ladies out on
the range of the, day and you, know it just
helps them to become more. Confident just always learn the
four rules and practice, them and you don't have to
be scared of.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Guns, yeah that's a great.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
Point and the thing, IS i know people sometimes will
want to add rules to. It, no, no, no, No the
four rules work just. Fine we don't need. Anymore and
they're short enough and easy enough to remember to. MEMORIZE i,
Mean i've seen videos of young young kids reciting four
rules of gun. Safety so, Hey, joe thank you for the.
Call appreciate. That, yeah it's real. Simple you can get
(18:30):
them printed.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Up you. SHOULD i, HAVE i guess two of the.
Speaker 5 (18:35):
Metal signs they sell over it at gun sight with
four rules on, them And i've got one put up
above my reloading. BENCH i can't remember WHERE i have
the other, one but they're good to put up at different,
places just as. Reminders and a lot of rangers have
the four rules put, up usually in the original. Form
sometimes they'll make a, change a little tweak here and,
(18:55):
there and that's. Okay but the four rules are. Basic
if you miss, them let me give them to you,
again BECAUSE i do have a. Memorized number, one all
guns are always.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Loaded what does that? Mean, well clearly we know they're.
Speaker 5 (19:08):
Not always, loaded because we just downloaded, one BUT i loaded,
it but we treated as though it's. Loaded we treat
every gun as though it's. Loaded, period parade rest always.
Period that means just no. Exceptions we treat all guns
as though they are. Loaded fair, enough. Okay number. Two
never point the muzzle at anything you're not willing to.
(19:30):
Destroy that would be your, hand your, knee your, foot your,
dog a wall when there's somebody on the other side
of the wall that you wouldn't want to. Shoot oh,
yeah because both go through walls really. Easily it's where
are you pointing your? Gun and As joe, said it's
(19:53):
got to be like crazy compulsive about, it just like, always, always,
Always i'm careful where my muzzle is. Pointed number, three
don't put your finger on the trigger until your sights
are on the. Target if your guns pointed down range
and the sights are on the target and you touch
(20:16):
the trigger and it goes off and you didn't mean
for it, too it could be a little, embarrassing but
nobody's gonna get. Shot the shot went down. Range so
keep your finger off the cotton picking. Trigger, okay it
doesn't mean like with a handgun where you're laid it
alongside the trigger.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Guard, no stick it up there alongside the. Slide if you.
Speaker 5 (20:39):
Place it over the top of the trigger, guard eventually
something's going to. Happen you're gonna get startled. Something that
finger is going to slide into the trigger guard and
hit the, trigger and the gun's going to make a
really loud. Noise so if you keep your finger up
along the, slide then you're not going to do. That
(21:00):
so that's number. Three keep your finger off the, trigger
into the, sight straw on the. Target number four is
know your target and what's behind. It identify your. Target
and you may be, thinking, Well i'm in the. Range
what's the big deal? Now, no, no, No the four wheels
of gun safety apply. Everywhere the four rules of gun.
Safety actually we're created for. Gunfighting we use them everywhere
(21:23):
else because they. Work but in a gunfight or self defense,
situation identifying your target is, critical and knowing what's behind.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
It it's.
Speaker 5 (21:34):
Critical you got a bad guy and you need to
shoot the bad, guy but you got.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
A bus full of nuns and orphans behind the bad.
Guy you can't shoot at.
Speaker 5 (21:45):
Him you must do something, different whether you're moving to
the side to get a different angle so now you've
opened up the, background or you've moved forwards so you
can drop down to a knee and shoot upward so
that the bullet's not going to go toward this school
bus full of nuns and orphans. Stuff you got to
(22:05):
think about what WOULD i do? If is there a
brick wall back? There, yeah that'll. Work is there just
a store back there with people in? It now that's
not going to. WORK i don't like that. BACKGROUND i
don't want to be flinging bullets back. There i'm not
one hundred percent That i'm going to hit this bad
guy with every shot because he may be moving. Around
four rules of gun. Safe to commit them to, memory
(22:27):
recyite them, off and teach them to.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Movies they're really. WORTHWHILE i, mean all, right we're. Back
let me get to.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
This earlier in the, WEEK i set off a little
bit of a firestorm on x you, know Formerly, twitter
WHEN i posted something that really got people stirred. Up, now,
LOOK i haven't known to be guilty about saying something
just to get people stirred up and watch the. REACTION
i got a lot of reaction to, this AND i
want to throw it out there for discussion and your.
(23:01):
Reaction here's the background BEFORE i run this. Interview for
almost one hundred, years The Pittman Robertson act has placed
a tax on firearms and ammunition eleven percent on long
guns and, ammunition ten percent on. Handguns that's an excise
tax is paid by the, manufacturers and, obviously like all,
(23:23):
taxes it just gets built into the price that we,
pay and that has gone to find a lot of
very good. Things, however the question now is is a
tax on guns?
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Constitutional can you tax A Second? Amendment?
Speaker 5 (23:41):
Right and, further it gets complicated because evidently some states
now are, saying, oh or there's an excise tax on
the federal, level we'll apply another excise tax on guns
AND ammo on the state. Level and so instead of
being attacks that used to build ranges and to preserve
(24:03):
wildlife and do some good, things it now looks like
it's starting to become. Punitive so tell you. What here's
an INTERVIEW i did this, week and then after, that
let's have the conversation and you tell me what you
think about the idea of there being a federal tax
(24:25):
on firearms and. Ammunition get, ready you can give me
a call at eight six to Six talk gun Or
Tom Talk. Gun now here's that CONVERSATION i had earlier
in the. Week Larry king from The National Shooting Sports. Foundation,
LARRY i would introduce, you but you got so many titles,
now senior vice president and legal, counsel AND i don't
know what all you're doing these, days.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
The guy who puts the garbage out on.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
One how long have you been AT? INNSSF i just
passed twenty six?
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Years?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Wow, yeah, man have you really been?
Speaker 5 (24:58):
A National Shooting Sports foundation is the trade association for
the farms. Industry you, know whether you're making guns or
selling guns or being a distributor or. Whatever so you
basically represent all of. Them and there's something else that
has happened over the last five ten. Years it's much
more involved in legislation and litigation as it relates to
(25:21):
the consumers as well on The Second amendment.
Speaker 12 (25:23):
Front, Absolutely i'm the Thing i'm most proud about in
my twenty six years nss is the growth of our
government relations capacity or public, affairs our, research our legal
work in Protecting Second amendment rights and challenging vans on
rifles and, magazines. Etc so you, KNOW nssf has changed
(25:46):
considerably for the. Good, yeah you know my twenty six,
years no.
Speaker 5 (25:51):
Doubt and you know people are, Seeing, okay N ssf
is involved in a number of the lawsuits and that's,
visible but.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
You also do things that are kind of not as.
Speaker 5 (26:01):
Visible it's like working With congress and then taking meetings
and or WITH atf people are you, know they're lambasting
THE atf, you but you're working with those folks and,
Actually i'm just going to blow your cover here behind
a lot of the changes that we just saw announced
By Todd.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
Blanche, well thank, You.
Speaker 12 (26:20):
TOM i, mean we pride ourselves on having a working
relationship with the. Regulators there's no currency in you, know
a sports starth. Approach you have to make your, argument your.
Case you can disagree, strenuously.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
But you can do.
Speaker 12 (26:39):
That you, know professional, matter and we do that all the,
time and we have in the past SUIT. Atf BUT
i will say, that you, know the relationship with the,
ADMINISTRATION doj AND atf has never been, better particularly coming
off of a buid.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Administration it was, very very, contentious very.
Speaker 12 (26:58):
Hostile me have the former president referred to the industry
as quote the enemy close.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Quote so there's a new sheriff in town in.
Speaker 5 (27:07):
This you, know let's talk about one other thing BEFORE
i want to get to the subject we want to talk.
About but for, many, many many, years you know, this
we watched. This you get AND i get. It some
of this is, fundraising it's, marketing it's we're the only
no compromise. GROUP i hear all the, time and no,
compromise no, Compromise and you AND i know from doing
(27:27):
this for. Decades, look there's, compromise which MEANS i give.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Up but that's not what we're.
Speaker 5 (27:33):
Doing if you, say, Okay i'm going to fight hard
AND i can only get fifty percent of WHAT i want,
Today i'll take the fifty.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Percent that's not. Compromise is it.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Not in my.
Speaker 12 (27:43):
Mind, look politics is often called the art of, compromise
and you can achieve policy. Objectives you may not get
everything you want all at, once but you take crown
and you come back and you fight for more of
the next. Day that's the way you have to approach.
This if you demand, perfection then you let perfection be
(28:06):
the enemy of the good and you end up with.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
Nothing and so it's better to take ground and come.
Speaker 12 (28:10):
Back and you, know and when the horror is the
other side, says well will occur if the policy is,
adopted doesn't, happen you go back and you argue for,
war and you argue for additional dropping the restrictions and
more freedoms and protections for The Second. Amendment so compromise
is not, surrendered compromises making progress.
Speaker 5 (28:32):
Exactly it makes no sense to Say i'm not going
to take WHAT i can get today because i can't
get it. All that's just, childish in, naive.
Speaker 12 (28:40):
Frankly and we've unfortunately seen that recurring basis where your
demands are made that are just not, feasible, untenable and
SO i would rather achieve something, constructive you, Know and
that doesn't mean you're surrendering your.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Principles but you do understand it folks who are on the.
Speaker 5 (29:00):
Outside, now on the, inside you're working with this all the,
time and you're looking at and, Say, okay we can
get this. Done now that other. Thing we're not going
to get it all today or even this. Year we're
gonna have to come. Back but if you're on the,
outside you don't know what the. Conversation you, Say, well
why couldn't we just just do? It, man just just
make it.
Speaker 12 (29:17):
Happen, YEAH i, MEAN i certainly appreciate the frustration people have,
that you, Know congress doesn't at fast, enough and it's
a FRUSTRATION i personally share at.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Times but you know.
Speaker 12 (29:33):
It's Not congress is not designed to move, quickly particularly The.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Senate it's it's designed to be a check on the you,
know motions of The.
Speaker 12 (29:41):
House if you read history of The federal's papers and
things like. That so you know that's what the democracy is.
About the debate ideas and hopefully the better argument. Wins
but you got to play the long, game achieved what
is achievable at the, time.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
And come back and fight another. Day all.
Speaker 5 (30:00):
Right as much AS i hate, taxes all, taxes the
excise tax on guns AND. Ammo it seems like right
now there's an effort to, say, well that's a tax
on guns is, unconstitutional or we shouldn't have it or,
something AND i just want to, say, wait, wait back.
Up you need to understand about The Pittman robertson. Actic
can you take it from?
Speaker 2 (30:20):
There?
Speaker 12 (30:21):
Sure, LOOK i, mean there's a very good argument that
tax is paid by consumers on the exercise of The
Second amendment is problematic and they very well be. Unconstitutional
but what people don't understand is that The Pittman robertson excise,
tax that, tax which is paid by, manufacturers not by the,
(30:42):
consumer has been in existence since surround nineteen. THIRTEEN i
believe in nineteen thirty sixty, seven The Pittman Robertson act was,
adopted and it was the industry and conservation groups that
requested that this tax be applied to wildlife conservation because
(31:03):
at the time wildlife was struggling lightly in The, states
and we've seen tremendous gains.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
On that front since The Bitmer Robertson.
Speaker 12 (31:14):
Act but it's important to understand that the tax is
paid by manufacturers and importers eleven percent have for long
runs and ammunition and ten percent for. Handguns and we
know what that money goes. Towards it is the primary
source of conservation. Funding it's, distributed it's collected By, treasury
(31:35):
distributed BY Us fish And Wildlife service to The, states
and as the primary source of conservation funding in The United.
States it's really not correct to say that the tax
is paid by the consumer any more than you would
say the consumer pays the electric bill or the insurance
or the. Labor it gets paid into the overall pricing the.
(31:57):
Good AND i don't think anyone would say that charging
a manufacturer for electricity infringes upon The Second, amendment, Right
so it's not paid by the consumer.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Directly it's in an indirect.
Speaker 12 (32:12):
Sense the consumer pays for electricity and labor like they
do for any, product but it's baked into the cost
of the of the. Product and it is it's a
tax that the industry, asked, uh you, know, well used
for wildlife.
Speaker 5 (32:26):
Company the industry and hunters and gun owners all asked
whether this tax to be. Used and AM i right
that even if you're not a, hunter you still get
benefit because a lot of this money is used to
build public shooting.
Speaker 12 (32:38):
Ranges that's correct and increasingly and that's something INN ssef
has been working on a lot the last few years
since that the money it pays for hunter education and
now there have been the legislation THAT nssf is supported
and got. Past it will help for building public shooting.
Ranges rising tides looks all boats and you know people
(33:00):
that never go, hunting but our target, shooters you, know
they get AN roi on their, investment and so there's
more opportunity for public shooting and that's been everything important
thing we've been working on the last several.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Years imagine what would happen if the tax on the
way the.
Speaker 12 (33:16):
Industry and hunters would lose their feet at the table
to anti hunting groups and to.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
You, know preservationists not.
Speaker 12 (33:26):
Conservationists there's a distinction there that's you, know anti.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Hunting, groups animal rights groups would hold. Sway and so you,
know we're very that would not be good for the,
industry would be good for gun owners as.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Well because we can, say, hey we're paying for.
Speaker 5 (33:43):
This we we didn't demand and deserve a seat at
the table because and we're looking AT i don't know
what the number is now it's probably in the five
to six million dollars a.
Speaker 12 (33:53):
Day Significant, again it is the primary source of conservation
funding in The United, states increasingly being used to build shooting.
RANGES i mean now every forest IN vlm section has
got to work with local stakeholders to build a shooting
range in the forest or in THE dlm.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
District so that's an important.
Speaker 12 (34:15):
Development you, know The Public Marksmanship training And Support act
that n it's A sith champion helps to create more
public shooting, opportunity not just. Hunting and again it's also
you know where funding comes from for hunter education.
Speaker 5 (34:32):
CLASSES i just had a thought where we're talking and you,
know because we've both been at this long, enough we
know how the other side. Works if they could eliminate
the tax on, guns the Pitman robertson fee and say,
okay you're not paying any money into, THIS i would
offer that that offers them a door to come back
in and, say you, know the public doesn't need to
be paying for shooting, ranges and the public doesn't need
(34:53):
to be paying for lands where people hunt because we
don't support hunting and we don't support, shooting and let's
just shut all of that. Down that gives them a
huge door to come.
Speaker 12 (35:02):
Through, absolutely you, know the industry, hunters gun owners would
lose their seat at the.
Speaker 5 (35:07):
TABLE i hadn't thought of that until we had the
conversation With, Larry and, LOOK i am conflicted on this particular.
ONE i like the benefits we get out of The
Pittman robertson. Funds it funds hunter safety. Education basically saved
(35:28):
wildlife In. America if you go look at the population
numbers of elk deer turkeys in nineteen, thirty the twenties and,
thirties they were an all time. Low and the money
that came From Pittman roberson, funds the tax on guns
AND ammo Saved america's. Wildlife so it did great. Things and,
(35:49):
now of course we're using it also to build shooting.
Ranges at the same, TIME i have a basic core
problem with a tax on a second, amendment, Right so
that's kind of WHERE i am at the.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Moment But larry made a good.
Speaker 5 (36:10):
Point he, says you, know if we aren't paying the,
money if it just comes from general funds, somewhere then
we don't have a seat at the. Table and Then washington,
speak that means we don't have any say in how
the money is. Used and the gun, banners the anti
hunters come in and, say oh, yeah hunters aren't paying
for this. Anymore gun owners aren't paying for this. Anymore
(36:31):
all this federal land where we've gotten it opened up
through the years for hunting and for. Shooting we should
stop hunting on national. Forest we should stop shooting ON blm.
Property there's no reason for, that and they not only,
can but they would do, that and we could be
(36:54):
ignored because we're just part of the general population and
we're not contributing the. Money is that worth having at
tax on? GUNS i don't. KNOW i would love to
get your take on. THIS i know there are people
who are over on x who are having very strong
(37:14):
opinions about.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
This i'd love to have them come away in.
Speaker 5 (37:18):
Here ALTHOUGH i think sometimes they just love the anonymity
of using a screen name and being able to call
people names and not be responsible for their actions or
what they.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Say there's a lot of that on The.
Speaker 5 (37:29):
Internet if someone told me, recently, says, hey one of
the rules on, axes don't read the comments to your,
post just post it and move. On, yeah BUT i
like having a. Conversation that's WHY i like doing gun,
talk having this conversation where you can call, in can
you tell me what you? Think and you may, say, Hey,
tom you're just. Wrong you're wrong on taxing a. Segonment, right,
(37:52):
fine let's have the. Conversation but you got to call
in for us to have that. Conversation eight sixty Six
talk gun Or tom talk gun will gets you in.
Here so The Pittman, Robert and, look if you're a
hunter safety, instructor you know What i'm talking. About you
know that pr funds have covered that. Completely you know
(38:12):
that that money is being used for a lot of good.
Things AND i guess from a practical, STANDPOINT i would,
say all, right if we, said all, right we can't
tax The Second, amendment we can't tax guns because that
impacts The Second. Amendment, Okay i'm open to suggestions where
(38:34):
we're going to get the, money and is there a
way for us to do it so that we gun
owners and hunters continue to have a say in how
the money is, used so we can keep public lands
open for hunting and public lands open for, shooting and
building more shooting ranges and helping to promote the shooting.
SPORTS i don't, know but, look we've got a lot of, interesting,
(38:59):
smart creative peaceeople out there who could come up with.
Ideas So i'm open to, suggestions and LIKE i, say
i could argue both. WAYS i completely Admit i'm conflicted
on the, thing and any give a, Moment i'll switch
sides on.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
You so there you. Go I'm Tom. Gresham this is gun.
Speaker 5 (39:14):
Talk if you got a comment about, THIS i thought
maybe you could help me understand.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
It, better give me a. Call we'll be right back
with real world.
Speaker 8 (39:29):
Experience Range ready delivers basic and advanced classes for pistol and.
Rifle we also offer a lady's only handgun. Course all
these training classes at Range ready prepare you to use
your gun and win the. Fight find us at rangereadystudios
dot com to learn.
Speaker 5 (39:46):
More More american women than ever are choosing firearms for self.
Protection female gun ownership has climbed one hundred and seventy
seven percent since nineteen, ninety with roughly one in four
women now owning a. Gun since twenty, nineteen sixty eight
percent of new female buyers cite protection as their main.
(40:07):
Reason one in four women has survived severe physical violence
from an intimate. Partner many have learned that police often
arrive too. Late compact concealable handguns top their shopping. Lists
women's specific training courses sell out within, hours and rangers
report female attendants. Doubling in many states with rational carry,
(40:29):
laws firearm companies now market directly to, women showing them as,
confident capable guardians rather than. Sidekicks millions of women are
rejecting helplessness and embracing armed self reliance as the most
reliable insurance policy in an uncertain. World all, right let's
(41:05):
go straight to the, Phones greg's And Eagle Point Oregon.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Online. One, Oh, greg you've made it into gun.
Speaker 13 (41:10):
Talk talk to, me all, right this is my first time,
calling So i'm kind of. Nervous but WHEN i was,
Eighteen i'm sixty seven, now but WHEN i was, EIGHTEEN
i DID i transgressed.
Speaker 11 (41:21):
And did an arm. Lobbery BUT i feel.
Speaker 13 (41:25):
Like i'm still being. PUNISHED i haven't had my rights,
restored And i'm not sure if that's what you probably
have talked about, it BUT i just haven't been fortunate
enough to catch that show you're doing.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
That, well that's changing.
Speaker 5 (41:38):
Here it's about like two twenty five years, ago The
democrats went in and yanked the money out of the
budget where people could go and get their rights, restored
applied to THE atf and get the rights, restored and
so they didn't want convicted felons from being able to
own guns ever for the rest of their. Lives and
of Course i'm of the opinion that, hey you served
your time or you, paid your punishment should be over
(42:00):
and you should have all your rights. Back, well we're
working to get that. Back Under, trump The department Of
justice AND atf are working on rights restoration legislation to
try to get that. Done they're doing it right now
on a case by case basis a bit, more but it's,
slow and it's a little bit cumbersome and honestly a
little bit. TROUBLESOME i was kind of hoping they would
(42:20):
be moving, faster AND i know they're, busy but we're
working on.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
It and that's not much consolation to.
Speaker 5 (42:28):
YOU i know that you have waited a half a
century trying to get your rights, back but you, know
that's ALL i can tell you, IS i know it's
being worked on and there are people who are talking about, it.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
But as of right, NOW i don't know where we, Are.
Telly What i'm going to.
Speaker 5 (42:43):
Do i'm going to work on getting somebody from the
federal government on the, show or somebody who knows about it,
anyway to come on in the next week or so
and we could discuss it and maybe we'll get an
update on. THAT i hope you'll be able to listen
in and we can get you some information on.
Speaker 13 (42:58):
That, Okay, YEAH i appreciate. It thanks you for your.
Speaker 11 (43:01):
SHOW i appreciate it very.
Speaker 5 (43:02):
Much Thanks, GREG i appreciate the. Call here's a question for,
you and this kind of goes to the whole internet.
Conversation If i'm more pure than you, are is the
question is this is winning incrementally the same as, compromise
(43:23):
because you've got some people who, say you, know we
didn't win, everything so that was a, compromise so they
consider that to be a. Loss And i've always been
of the opinion that if you can win half of
it and then come back for more, later that's a.
Win and, yes sometimes it's really disappointing to not be
able to win it. All but the people who work
(43:44):
In congress or legislators will tell, you, look sometimes you're
just not going to win it. All it's not in the,
cards it's not on the. Table it's not going to
happen no matter what you, do no matter how righteous
you think your cause is, today this, week this, year
it's not going to. Happen but we can get you
some of. It so the question is is it? Compromising
(44:11):
is it? Caving is it surrendering to take part of
what you want with the idea of coming back and
trying to get more of it.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Later and the REASON i bring.
Speaker 5 (44:21):
It up is because you GOT i call them the chest,
thumpers the holier than, that more pure than you.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Are we're the only true no compromise that amendment.
Speaker 5 (44:32):
Group, yeah, yeah, yeah, YEAH i, know get. It, jeez
give me a. Break but it does raise. Money it
raises funds by saying.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
We're the new compromise.
Speaker 5 (44:41):
Group, okay, sure when you don't, compromise you generally don't win. Anything,
Man i'll take fifty percent this, year fifty of what's
left next, year fifty percent of what's left after that next.
Year you see where we're, going. Right we call that.
Winning we lost a lot of our g writes incrementally
over many many. Years we're we're not going to get
(45:04):
them all back. Instantly we're getting back past and, Frankly
i'm frustrated like everybody, else BECAUSE i want it right,
now BECAUSE i know we have this narrow window during
The trump era when The democrats take over, again and
they will they will try to.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
Undo as much of this as.
Speaker 5 (45:19):
Possible SO i want to push this thing as far
as we, can so when the rubber band snaps, back
it doesn't come all the way back to where we.
Were maybe it comes halfway. Back we're back to that fifty.
Percent they. Again I'm Tom. Gresham this is gun.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
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