-- Col. Jeff Cooper developed what's called the modern technique of the pistol and created a school for gunfighting. On what would have been his 106th birthday. Gun Talk broadcasts live from Gunsite and examines the lasting impression of this Renaissance Man.
-- How has Gunsite, often called "The Harvard Of Gunfighting," evolved over the 50 years it has operated. Ken Campbell is CEO of this world-famous training facility in Arizona, and he is in the middle of a revamping of the physical facility as well as updating what and and how students are trained.
-- At its core, a holster just needs to hold a handgun. Seems simple, and in a way it is. But the small things make a difference. Rob Leahy of Simply Rugged holsters has lived a life with guns, and that experience helps him design and build leather holsters that are comfortable and practical.
Gun Talk 05.10.26 Hour 1
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
-- How has Gunsite, often called "The Harvard Of Gunfighting," evolved over the 50 years it has operated. Ken Campbell is CEO of this world-famous training facility in Arizona, and he is in the middle of a revamping of the physical facility as well as updating what and and how students are trained.
-- At its core, a holster just needs to hold a handgun. Seems simple, and in a way it is. But the small things make a difference. Rob Leahy of Simply Rugged holsters has lived a life with guns, and that experience helps him design and build leather holsters that are comfortable and practical.
Gun Talk 05.10.26 Hour 1
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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to perform when it counts. Known for accuracy, durability, and reliability,
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Speaker 2 (00:17):
He was the first and he's still the best. For
thirty years, Tom Gresham has been your trusted source on
all things ballistic, new guns, Second Amendment, personal protection, deep
part of it. Paul, Tom Talk gun Now, here's Tom.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Okay sat lov We're going to have a bunch of
fun today. I'm Tom Gresham and this is gun Talk.
We're gonna have to put up with a little bit here.
I'm out in Arizona. I'm Aska at Gunsight. We're doing
the show live broadcast from Gunslight, the entire show today
Gunsight Academy. The pollen is blooming and I am suffering
from it, and so you just got to put up
with that. So if you hear me go away for
(00:57):
a second, it's me coughee. I'll be right back. But
other than that, we're having a great time. Why in
the world did we come all the way out here
to Gunsite, the Harvard if you will, of gunfighting schools, Well,
because it's a special time It's obviously it's Mother's day,
so we're doing that, but also it is the birthday
of Jeff Cooper, the founder of Gunsite and actually the
(01:20):
founder of the modern technique of the pistol. We're joined
right now by the CEO of Gunsight, Ken Campbell, joins us.
Hey doing, my friend Tom.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
I'm always excited to be on the show with, even
better when I'm sitting across the table.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
It is more fun doing it's face to face, isn't it.
It is. As for those who don't know your background,
as you've been in law enforcement most of your life,
I guess.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
I did thirty five years at a sheriff's office in
the Midwest. I did my last eight years as the
sheriff in Indiana. There's term limits on constitutional offices and
good Lord, smile, good Lord smile, domb because I maxed
my pension and termed out at the same time. I'd
(02:01):
like to say I was smart enough plant that way,
but it was just the good Lord smiling on me.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
That's great. So now you are the CEO at Gunsight,
and it's been two three years since I've been here,
and it's like a different place you have. I came
up here and looked like you had bulldozed the whole
place and put up new buildings.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Well, we've we've spent about three million dollars give or
take in capital improvements in the last three years. We
continue to grow. We've had eleven record student years. COVID
was a record year last year, even with what they
call the Trump slump in our industry. That was a
(02:39):
record year. So we keep moving forward. With all this
record number of students, it was time to start making
some changes here.
Speaker 5 (02:45):
A lot of these buildings.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
Are fifty, forty thirty years old, right, and it was
time to make some changes. So Buzzmills, who's you'll be
talking to him later today. He's the owner of a
gun site.
Speaker 5 (02:57):
He came in.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
He and his wife Sonia, came in twenty seven years
ago and saved gun site.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
They did. They literally saved the place.
Speaker 5 (03:04):
They did.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
There was another owner between Jeff Cooper and Buzz and Sognia,
and unfortunately the business suffered as a result of that.
But they came in and saved it. So now if
you haven't been here in a bunch of years, the
road is paved. The rental car companies should have chipped
in and helped pay for that. So realignment faith.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
And what we says, yes.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
So, but we've got a new office, new pro shop,
the most dangerous place at GOUT. It's forty nine hundred
square feet, a brand new mess deck where you eat lunch.
We can see it one hundred and twenty five in there.
We've got a brand new maintenance barn. We had to
with record student numbers, we needed more seating capacity, so
we built a bigger bathroom. And depending on when you
(03:50):
came out to gun site, either the classroom or the
pro shop is now back to classrooms. So we have
three full sized cat classrooms plus the small registration classroom.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
And for those who don't know, let me explain, it's
not like you come out here and there's a range.
Oh no, how many ranges do you have on the facility?
Speaker 4 (04:09):
I hope our insurance company isn't listening, because we admit
twenty seven the insurance company. We can shoot from contact
out to twenty four hundred here. Welcome to Disneyland.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
With gun it is all of that, and it's one
of the reasons people come out for the first time
and they go, I don't know what I'm getting into
and by the time they finish the first class, they're
planning the second class.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
I talk on Monday morning, and you're in class tomorrow,
so you'll hear me talk about it. I talk about
the recidibus.
Speaker 5 (04:36):
Now.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
In my prior life as a county sheriff, that wasn't
a good thing, right, that was not a good thing.
But here we have a very high recidivism rate, and
that's a wonderful thing. We've got some folks. I tell
them that first class is just a gateway drug and
they'll be back in five times, ten times, fifteen, fifty
seventy five. I've got a few students over one hundred times.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
A hundred times.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
Yes, sir, I can document it. I don't have to
make it up. Wow.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Of course you have all these different classes, so you
could take all these handgun classes, and then you could
take specialized classes and the red Dot classes, and you
can take rifle class and it takes a shotgun class.
You could take hunter prep are going to Africa classes,
I mean.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Edged weapons, tactical medicine, advanced tactical medicine, and on and on.
It's just go to gunsight dot com and scroll down.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
If you never know who I mean there will be
people teaching here that will surprise you, from Steve Trani
to Rob Latham to of course the gun site instructors
and rains masters, all world class because if they're not,
they don't get there will be here.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
It's nine percent of our instructors or military law enforcement
or both, either active duty or retired. A small percentage
are like for our hunter classes, they are Safari Guide
or they're North America Specialist Guide, so they're very specialized
when they're teaching you. I'm getting ready to head out
for a black bear hunt tomorrow, sorry a week from tomorrow,
(06:01):
and I can't wait. But the Safari prep class I
took has really got me excited ready to gear it
up for that, and so we offer a lot.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Let's take a break here, because not a break for
the show. I want to switch subjects. Today would have
been Jeff Cooper's one hundred and sixth birthday, correct, Colonel
Jeff Cooper. I think there are a lot of people
now who are all in the tactical world and everything
else and they don't know that the things that they
are doing were actually developed by Jeff Cooper fifty plus
(06:34):
years ago.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
That's correct. He developed what's called the modern technique of
the pistol. And if you don't know who he is,
especially if you're in the firearms industry, go on to
your favorite search engine and look.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
He was a renaissance man.
Speaker 6 (06:47):
He was.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
He was one of the first people who had a
background in firearms, a background in fighting from the Marine Corps.
And then he started studying at Big Bear Lake in
the real world competitions that were the precursor to IPSICK
and IDPA and so on. And then he was also
a college professor.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
He's a historian, So.
Speaker 5 (07:11):
Yeah, Soul.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
He developed lesson plans. He saw what worked, he studied it,
and he put it in a lesson plan, which turned
into what we call the modern technique.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
It's not enough to know how to do it, you
have to learn how to teach it. Those are different skills,
that's correct.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
So in nineteen seventy six he opened up gun Sight.
It was one hundred and sixty two acres. There were
two square ranges, one live fire shoot house and one
outdoor simulator. And now we're thirty two hundred plus acres
with the twenty seven ranges, multiple live fire, indoor outdoor
simulators and we still teach the modern technique, but it
has evolved.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
I'm just going to say it's not exactly the song.
He would recognize it, but it's not exactly what he taught.
Just like everything is evolved. If you were car racing
or anything else, you figured, Okay, let's try this. Oh
that works a little better, let's tweak that.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
Exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
That's what you've been doing exactly. It's what works in
the real world, not what we read in on the internet.
Oh God help us there. But it's what really works
in the military world, in the civilian world, in the
gunfighting world, and that's what we're teaching. We're teaching good
people how to stay alive, and that has not changed,
(08:19):
but the evolution of the modern technique has. We still
get the people. If you foolishly read the comments on
you know, on social media, put oh, well they take
rebar and drive your feet into this position. They only
shoot nineteen eleven pistols only do that. That's right. None
of those people have never been here. We teach a
modern fting stance. We were just talking a little bit
(08:40):
ago about the one hundredth anniversary the nineteen eleven.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
The classes we did that was in the class.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
That same year we did the twenty fifth anniversary of
the glock pistol four block. We have a gun Sight
Block Service pistol. We have a one of our fiftieth
anniversary pistols is a shadow Systems pistol. So we have
a because gunfighting has evolved.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Well exactly for I have to go to my break here.
I do want to ask you, no doubt you have
had a number of students report back and say I
had to use my skills that I learned at gun Sight.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
Yes, sir, every month. But you know what the most
important one is is the one that says, I paid
attention in the mindset lecture. That's the most important lecture,
and I saw something it didn't seem right, and I
walked away. If you can avoid the gunfight, that's the
best gunfight you're ever going to win.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
People don't understand that. They'll say, well, now you're going
to a gunfighting school because you want to get into
a gunfight. No, it's a life altering experience. You may
not have understood before you got here. But after your
five day first class, which is a two fifty class here,
you come out here thinking I know how to do this,
but I don't ever want to have to do this.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
In my prior life. Charge we're going in, me and
my guys and gals were going in. That's what guys,
you're doing that stuff or just regular patrol deputy they're
going to go in. That was that was the goal there.
But that's not my life now. And if if I'm
coming to help you, Bob, my wife, you know, close people,
(10:14):
that's one thing. But if I can if I can avoid,
and I can just stand and watch and pick my point,
if I need to intervene from concealment or cover, that's
an A plus plus plus answer.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Well exactly. That's the kind of things that are being
taught here Gunsight. And it is the fiftieth year for
Insight fifty years, so you got all sorts of things
going on this year.
Speaker 5 (10:33):
Oh, we sure do.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Where the world is doing hold that thought. We're going
to take a break, go back. We're gonna talk about
fifty years at gun Site and what that means. And
there's still a lot of this year left. People can
go sign up check it out gun Sites to U
and s I T E dot com. I'm Tom Gresha.
We'll be right back with more gun.
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Speaker 3 (13:39):
All right back with here, we're at live at gun Site.
We're here. It's the fiftieth year for gun Site, and
of course it is the would have been the one
hundred and sixth birthday for Jeff Cooper, the founder of
gun Site, and we're visiting with Ken Campbell, he's the CEO.
And we've got a lot of people who are going
to be here. We actually have some guests who are
going to be calling in. We've got a lot of
things going on. Unfortunately, because we're just full of guests,
(14:02):
there's no room. Fortunately, I have to say this for
you to call in, that's okay. Just sit back. You're
going to enjoy this. So, Kim, we were talking about
this being the fiftieth year, and I know people think, well, yeah,
don't you at some point just run out of people
who want to take a class like this.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
No, we don't.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
We're into second and third generation families coming here now,
whether it's granddad coming with grandson or granddaughter or grandma
coming with. One of my favorite clients is she was
an lol little old lady and she'd come from the
West Coast and she'd come every year and do a
private class. And then one year, one summer, she came
(14:39):
for three days with her grandson who just graduated high school,
and she said, you know, I could have bought him
a new car for graduation, but he will this is
a life saving skill and he will remember this time
with me the rest of his life. Now you put
a dollar.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Value on Oh yeah, there it is.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Is one of my favorite little old ladies from church
back home when we were in with the youth group.
She'd come up and she'd pat me on the cheek
like little old ladies were wanting to do, and she'd go, honey,
you're making memories.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
There you go.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
And what better way with the life savings you do it?
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Yeah, I'm going to say, and saving lives at the
same time. So you got all these classes house business.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
Oh again, eleven record years in a row. This year
we're two one hundred plus ahead of where we were
a year ago, projecting to year's end. For the gun
Side Alumni shoot, that's the big fiftieth anniversary party. It's
coming up the third of October.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
You have to have been through a guns like class yees,
it's in.
Speaker 4 (15:35):
A three day or more pistol class in order to
attend an alumni shoot, because it's not it's it's it's
a shot. It's a social engagement slightly interrupted by gunfire.
I like it, but it's serious shooting going on. So
we're at three hundred enrolled. Last year we had just
under three hundred. We're anticipating four hundred, but we're prepared
(15:56):
for that. We know how we're going to get four
hundred folks through on all our stages, and there's got
to be some fun retro stuff go.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Okay, So what's going on? Why is business up? When
you talk to people and now do you ask them,
you ask them for the first time is why did
you come here?
Speaker 4 (16:15):
It's several things here and we've even seen some changes
where we added a class called Day zero, but we
can come back to that. But it's whether it's defund
the police, whether it's the riots, whether it's people recognizing
the world is not the place it once was and
I need to learn how to protect myself. So as
a result of that, we're seeing more and more non
traditional gun owners coming into our classes, and that's wonderful
(16:39):
because that lets them recognize we all put our pants
on the same way, and thank goodness, we do have
that silly thing called the Second Amendment in our Constitution
that lets us do that.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
But and it's great that they're buying a gun for
self defense, but it's what's more important, even better it's
the fact that they're recognizing I don't know exactly what
to do with this. I'm going to go figure this
thing out.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
And Jeff Pimper, just because you on a piano does
not make you a musician.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Exactly, And all you have to do is go to
a public range to find out that Irna pistol does
not make your first alero.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
It's frightening exactly. So we're seeing more and more.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
We even do this day zero and it's a class
on Sunday. We started it with pistol and now we're
doing it with carbing modern sporting rifle. Okay, so many
folks coming in with zero gun experience, so they never
shot on a firing line. It literally would bring the.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Gun box going in the cardboard box it came in.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
So Day zero's slower paced.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
We'll have a half a dozen eight people in the class,
so it's not a line of a dozen shooters with
brass going off. They're understanding things we covered on Monday,
but we're moving pretty quick on Monday.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
So they're not overwhelmed on Monday exactly.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
So in two years, I didn't know what people to think.
I'm trying to get another day's tuition. That's not what
it was about. And in two years of doing this,
I've had zero negative evaluations. Every student is offered the
opportunity to give an evaluation. I've had three people come
up at the end of day zero and say, you know,
I don't think this is for me, And that's okay.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Interesting.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
That's better than me going down on Tuesday say it's
not for you, Say come on up to the principal's
office with me.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Yeah, and that's okay. That's a boy. That's an honest assessment.
It is, and a difficult one.
Speaker 5 (18:24):
It is.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
Some people are better off with the Louisville Slugger than
they are a cle nineteen eleven. It's just a fact
of life. But so our business has grown. We try
to stay cutting Jeff Cooper was cutting edge fifty years ago,
forty years ago and so on, and we try to
stay cutting edge as well. That's why we teach classes
(18:45):
with these new pistol mounted optics. Aren't new fangled, they're
not their future. They're today. Yes, seventy eighty percent of
our students have pistol mounted offer really yes, now not
this week.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
This week we're doing the nineteen elevens, iron sights and
leather holsters.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
Jeff Cooper wouldn't have it. Why are you now if
you're carrying a nine millimeters nineteen eleven, Well, we may
judge you a little bit with a look.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Down our nose scats a bit, but that's okay, Yeah,
it's okay, but it's a yeah, this is fun. This
is a two fifty class. Actually you end up filling
up two of them. We did, So we're going to
do two of these two fifty classes this week. I
tell people this is like a bunch of folks racing
their classic cars. That's kind of that way. Yeah, we
know about the others. We have the others, you know,
(19:33):
and we all have high cap nines and everything else.
But this week we're wanting to shoot these guns. Why
because we like them all?
Speaker 4 (19:39):
Oh absolutely, We've got two of our classic cars. Well,
we got two of our classic range masters, Dave Harrison,
Mario Marchman. There's a few of us left, half a
dozen or eight that actually learned from Jeff Cooper, and uh,
they're two of them, and so they're going to be
in class. Steve Hendricks he's one also, he's going to
be one of the coaches, so it'll be a more
(20:00):
a traditional class and.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
Let me jump in there. And you know, we've got
the place down in Louisiana, rains ready and Ryan runs
that and we offer half a dozen classes. I mean,
we're not a training facility. We don't pretend to be.
We offer some classes and people say, well, where should
I go? And our answer is always the same. We
don't really care. As long as you go get good
training somewhere.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
Good training, that's the key.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Good training, that's it. And we say, look, go to Gunsite,
go to Thunderanch, there's baby call it. Half a dozen
places that I would say, have no problem recommending, but
just go get some training. But I would also tell
you the part of that is, over the last twenty years,
I've told a number of my friends and people who
I care about I trust, I said, look, here's the deal.
(20:46):
You go to Gunsite. If after the fifth day on
your two fifty class you don't think it's worth it,
I'll pay for it for you. I've never had anybody
take me up on that.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
Yeah, I've been here full time twelve plus years, and
I say every Monday morning you can prove to me.
On Friday afternoon. You applied yourself, you tried, you had
an open mind, and you learn nothing. I'll give you
your money back. And I've done it twice, kidd. And
some people just choose to keep their mind closed up
like a fist.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Can't be helped. They can't people, I don't care what.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
I had an old sheriff that said, there's some people
you could. You could stand on the courthouse square and
hand out one hundred dollars bills and they'd still make
a bunch of them angry, complaining, right they would. So
I've done it twice. So I'll take that record with
the thousands of students along and.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
There it is. You are the Harvard of gun and
I got about twenty seconds left here, So tell people
what they need to know and then give them your
line baby.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
Gunsight dot com it's where you go visit Ken kay
in at gunsite dot com. And in the meantime, when
are you coming to gunsite there?
Speaker 3 (21:52):
It is all right, Ken Campbell, thank you for and
thank you so much for hosting this. This is wonderful
to be able to do the show here.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Well, well we're going to beat up pretty good this week.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Oh I know. I figured that I'd always get beat
up when I'm in this class. I come in thinking
I don't know anything, and you kind of reaffirm that
with me, make sure I know. All right, don't go anywhere, guys,
We're gonna be right back. We've got a lot of
stuff going on. We are live from gun Site. I'm
Tom Gresham. This is gun Talk. All right back with
(22:24):
you here. We are live at Gunsite. The well, the
gunfighting school is what it really is, people that shoot
you school well, it is kind of They do teach
you to shoot, but mostly they teach you to fight.
The two are different gun fighting. The operative phrase in
that is fight you learn to fight with a gun.
If you want to check it out Gunsight gu n
s I te dot Com having some fun here bringing
(22:45):
in a whole bunch of different people because I'm here
for this. Uh well, it's Jeff Cooper two fifty class.
The two fifty is the number they use for their
introductory pistol class. And people say, well, why are you
taking the two fifty class. Haven't you taken that before? Yep,
I've taken the two fifty class a couple of times.
Why do you take it? Because I learned something every time.
I take it simple as that I need the brush up,
(23:05):
I need the refreshers. So there you are. We're joined
right now by Rob Lady from Simpling the Rugged Holsters,
and Paul introduced yourselfter you with place.
Speaker 5 (23:13):
Hi.
Speaker 10 (23:14):
I'm Paul Garcia. I've lived down in Phoenix, Arizona. I
am a retired police officer from California, and I still
keep my hand in that part of the game, teaching
at a police academy, and I'm an instructor here at
Gunsite starting my tenth year. And I'll be one of
the coaches in the upcoming classes starting tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
So oh, so you're gonna be beating us up tomorrow.
Speaker 5 (23:35):
Yet I won't beat you up. I'll beat up the
other half.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yes you will. I know better than that. Here you are,
you got that beat. The look in your eyes, it's
like I got this guy. I'm gonna work him over. Rob,
You've been to this thing so many times. This is
like your second home over here.
Speaker 6 (23:50):
Oh yeah, it's really fun to be associated with Gunsite.
I grew up here in the seventies when it was founded,
worked in a reloading show up cast bullets for him.
Speaker 5 (24:02):
Then no kidding.
Speaker 6 (24:03):
Always wanted to get out here.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 6 (24:05):
Yeah, I didn't get out here until eleven, I think
the first time I took an off site course in
ninety six. But yeah, I've just become very enjoyable. Of course,
our mutual friend Ed had really integrated me.
Speaker 5 (24:19):
Well into this.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
How long have you been making holsters?
Speaker 6 (24:23):
Since I was a kid? But I started simply rugged
twenty two years ago.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Wow, okay. And you know, I know people say, gee,
people actually buy leather holsters these days, aren't they all
made of kay Deeks.
Speaker 5 (24:34):
Every day they have every day?
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Well why would they do that? Well, I'll tell you
why I do it. I still have a Milt Sparks
holster that was my first concealed carry holster, a summer special.
I started carrying it in seventy six. It still works
just like it did then. And I guarantee you there's
not a Kaydex culture. It's going to make fifty years. No.
Speaker 6 (24:59):
Yeah, it is first a pleasure of mine. I like
working with leather, and I like collecting holsters. I had
a huge holster collection that I actually sold down and
traded down to get into business. And I've slowly built
that back up, but it's outstanding stuff.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Yeah yeah, well you know, and all of us sitting
here right now have at least one, maybe a number
of different boxes of holsters. Paul, You're like, yeah, we
all got all these holsters, right, I mean, if you've
been at this any length of time, because you keep trying.
I'm trying to find the one that's just right for
this use and that use.
Speaker 10 (25:36):
I have rubber made bins full of holsters and mag pouches.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Yep. Yeah, well I think we all do exactly Excuse me,
all right, So, Paul, I wanted to bring you in
because you've got a foot in both worlds here. You
do competition shooting and you teach gun fighting and skills
and police work. How do those crossover? What can somebody
get from each of those?
Speaker 10 (26:01):
They are definitely different, But I a strong believer in
fast and accurate shooting and superior weapons handling can benefit
people on both sides of it. With the competition shooters
that I see, they are police officers, they are by
(26:22):
far the best shooters.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
In their department. Oh sure, I mean it's hands down.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Well we know, I mean not telling me stories that
most police officers are not real shooters, not real gun people.
Speaker 10 (26:35):
They aren't. And I gave you this little term earlier.
I do believe most police officers are professional shooters. They
only shoot when someone pays them to do it.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
You got robbed with that one.
Speaker 5 (26:50):
It is so true, and I'll stand by that statement.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Yeah, because that's just not their hobbyists, not their thing.
You know. They carry a gun because they're paid to
carry a gun, and they shoot when they're paid to shoot. Okay,
fair enough. But for those of us who are not cops,
and I've always said to people, people say, well, they
should say, I would love it if they did. How
do I know if I'm any good? Because if all
you do is go to the range and shoot, and
(27:13):
you've never shot against anybody, and you haven't used any
kind of measurement system, you don't have any idea if
you're any good or not.
Speaker 10 (27:20):
Absolutely you can feel good about it, but what's that right?
Speaker 5 (27:24):
You need to test yourself, you know.
Speaker 10 (27:27):
Jeff Cooper actually insisted on having a competitive component in
each of the classes here at Gunsight.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
And still today. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
Yes, you'll do.
Speaker 10 (27:37):
It Friday afternoon and we have a mini competition usually
about Tuesday Wednesday, afternoon just shooter versus shooter on steel targets.
Of course, we don't want to cut down the student
body that much, and that's been a long time thing here.
Jeff Cooper is one of the founders of competitive shooting.
I prefer to actually even just call it practical shooting.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Okay.
Speaker 10 (27:59):
He was part of the founding members International Practical Shooting Confederation, right,
he was right there at the beginning, so he had
obviously a foot in both doors. And I think it's
important for us to maybe get a little bit back
towards that. There's a big divide between competition shooters and
people that consider them selves tactical shooters.
Speaker 5 (28:21):
They don't need to be mutually exclusive.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
No, no, because you should be able to pull from
each And look, if you're a full on competitive shooter,
you probably don't have the skills you need to be
a really good defensive practical shooter, and vice versa. If
you all you ever do is go to gunsite, you'll
learn a lot of stuff, but you could be better
if you tried competition shooting.
Speaker 5 (28:43):
Well more oil rounded.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:46):
One of the things we see with.
Speaker 6 (28:47):
Competition shooters that come here to gunsite is this is
a hot range and they're so used to shooting on
cold ranges.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
We'll explain. People don't even know what you what do
you mean when you say hot range?
Speaker 6 (28:58):
Explain that when you come to gunsite your guns loaded
and ready to go, and it's incumbent upon you to
keep your gun loaded and ready to go, you don't
clear and the show right.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
No this you know, unload and show clear and all that. No,
it's like the gun should be like what do we
say A holstered gun is a safe gun?
Speaker 6 (29:14):
Yes, And we have people here. I've seen instructors here
with training stars from tramp competition out there on the
line getting ready to go and there's no mag and
everybody's like nudge and nudge walk what you know, watch
them they're gonna mess up.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (29:29):
Jeff Quinn years ago got one of the instructors stuffed
a bunch of little baby Ruth candy bars in the Magwell, no,
st I forty and we're all sitting back there waiting
for it to happen. She brought up her gun and
it rained candy bar.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Jeez, well it just kind of making a point. But yeah,
this is a it's a hot range. We run hot range.
At our place down Louisiana, and people are uncomfortable with that.
Speaker 5 (29:57):
At first.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
They don't if if ever done it before. They think, wow,
all these guns are loaded and it's funny. After about
an hour they go, well, that's no big deal. It's like,
why would you worry about that?
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Right?
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Right?
Speaker 11 (30:08):
None of them went off while they were in the holsters. Yes,
adult rules, adult rules, that's right. This is serious. Look,
carrying a gun is serious stuff. It just is, you know,
and you can get hurt doing this. You got to
acknowledge that going into it. So let's be smart.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
That's why everywhere you walk around here you got the
four rules of gun safety posted. If you will follow
those rules, you might possibly have a gun go off
sometime in your life, but it's not going to be
catastrophic because you didn't point it at somebody or at yourself.
All right, So what would you tell people, Paul I say?
(30:44):
If you say, okay, I'm really more interested in the
self defense side of things, but I'm hearing you. I
hear what you're saying, and i want to go try
some competition. What should they try? What did they try
to get out of it?
Speaker 5 (30:55):
A lot of it will depend upon what competitions they
are offered in their area.
Speaker 10 (31:00):
Where I've lived in different areas of the country, IDPA
International Defensive Pistol Association, that was the predominant sport that
was being shot in that area. Down where I live
in the Phoenix area, United States, Practical Shooting Association is
the more dominant sport being shot.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Okay.
Speaker 10 (31:19):
IDPA does give some they try to have some tactical factors,
but in the end, it's still a sport with a
clock and a score sheet. USPSA makes no bones about it.
We're trying to go as fast as that as we can. Yes,
it is a pure game.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
Yeah, which is okay as long as you understand that
you're not really getting defensive training out of this.
Speaker 10 (31:40):
No, make no qualm about whatsoever it is. It is
not defensive or tactical training whatsoever.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I've seen at least one of those shooters at a
class here one time. We're going through the donga, which
you know is basically a washed dry wash, and he
is moving so fast he is blowing past targets that
he didn't see him in time. It would have been
a terrible self defense deal. But boy, he went fast
and hit targets. It's like, okay, yeah, but you got shot, dude.
(32:08):
It's like, this is not kind of the goal here.
Speaker 6 (32:11):
Yeah, it's hunting racing.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Yeah it is, all right. So all right, tell me
if I'm looking at a leather holster, no, I'm gonna
back up scratch that. This is the fiftieth year of
gun Site. You brought out some cool product for the
fiftieth year of gun Site. Yep. Talk talk to me
about that for a second.
Speaker 6 (32:30):
Well, we did three holsters. I make pancakes, of course,
so one of them is a pancake holster. It's our
deft Con that you can wear inside the waistband or
on your belt. I've used him for years as the
main holster I use every day, and I've come here
and ran a weak course using that inside the waistband version.
(32:54):
Not everybody gets to do that. You gotta prove yourself,
you know that you're gonna handle it directly, and that's
widely popular, very versatile, everyday carry holster. And we brought
out a very economical holster. It's just a we call
it the range Master. It's just a really easy belt
(33:18):
holster with.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
It doesn't set you back, you know, a bunch of money. Yeah,
and you've got fifty gun Sight fiftieth anniversary models. Yes
on these are available booth from your website and from
the pro shop here.
Speaker 6 (33:31):
Yes, if you're a gun Sight alumni, then you can
get that raven deal that Buzz asked me to do.
And nice, let's lets me do that. But they got
to be gun Side alumni, okay. And then the final
holster we did, we changed their old competitor around, updated
it made it a little lighter and faster to use.
(33:53):
And that's the one you'll see uh in the pro
shop the most and on the hips of people around
or a competitor model, and it's a vertical carry, that's all.
These are optic ready by the way, okay. And they'll
straddle the belt loop so okay, real fun, comfortable holster.
Speaker 5 (34:13):
You could wear it all day.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Long and no people will say, well, you know, Kaydex
is faster. Kay Deex may be slicker, but a good
leather holster is. I don't see any difference. Stamp correct
where do you think, Paul?
Speaker 10 (34:26):
I disagree? You like the KAIDEKX I do I have seen?
Matter of fact, you brought up Milt Sparks it is.
Jim wall now runs that place. I had shot with
him in Idaho. He draws from a leather pancake holster
and he has a grand Master cost shooter. It doesn't
slow him down one bit. Okay, in general though, I
(34:47):
think it's a faster draw coming out of Kaydex than leather.
Maybe it's a matter of breaking in that leather. Jim
Walt holster is very well.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
Well, Yeah, I shot with you have about three three
weeks ago. Rather we're doing a revolver shoot there. So yeah,
it's kind of scary what the guy can do. Yes, yes,
but that goes to people who are really good, are
generally pretty good with everything.
Speaker 5 (35:06):
Probably so.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
But but you know, you make a point you need
to break in a leather holster or get slicker with
where after a while.
Speaker 5 (35:13):
Absolutely it does.
Speaker 3 (35:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (35:15):
One thing leather holsters don't do is fall apart like
KAIDEKX does so often.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
Here I have had.
Speaker 6 (35:22):
Somebody comes to me, can you build me a holster
in a day. Yes, we'll get a holster for you.
Because you're at gunsight in the middle of training and
your ex brand holster they didn't bother to put lock
tight on the screws.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yeah, I have had the screws come out of my holsters.
Speaker 10 (35:36):
Yes, I am sure we if we look closely, we
have probably ankled deep in screws out on all of
our ranges.
Speaker 5 (35:44):
They constantly fall.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Is that right? So what do you recommend? Put lock?
Speaker 10 (35:49):
Put lock tight on everyone except for the ones that
actually adjust attention to the holster, the ones that hold
them together. You've got to put lock tight on because
apparently the manufacturers aren't. There's some colored blue thing on.
It doesn't hold the screwing.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Oh, interesting, because it looks like it's like it.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
Looks like it. Well, if so, it sure doesn't work. Wow.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Okay, that's good to know. So don't don't assume get
it done yourself. Put the lock tight on. If you're
going to be doing that, absolutely fair enough. All right,
talk to me if you were all about different positions
Appendix three o'clock any other place that people want to
wear their guns. Do you have a preference for what
you do when you're carrying?
Speaker 10 (36:28):
Yes, maybe I would draw from appendix if I did
not have a front mounted rucksack. It is uncomfortable for
me to sit down with a gun.
Speaker 5 (36:37):
Stick to me in the gus.
Speaker 6 (36:39):
I'm a little slow.
Speaker 10 (36:40):
I've seen people draw very fast from appendix. It's inside
basically their torso. It is a shorter distance to draw
that gun out. It is personally, I don't do it
that And being in law enforcement for thirty plus years,
you know what that gun was always at three o'clock.
I could almost guarantee you in a critical incident, I'm
(37:03):
going to three o'clock very first thing, no.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Matter where it is, matter, that's where you're gonna be
looking for.
Speaker 11 (37:08):
That's going to be the first motion to it. And
then just the comfort level. Well, I'm the same way.
It's like, and I think different torsos are different. You
have short torsos long and when I try appendix, it
just pinches me. Something terrible pokes into my leg. I'm thinking,
what you know? And I got no torso basically, so
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
What it is. But I can't do it either. And
I know people say, well, I'm worried about where it's pointing.
Well that's the other issue. That's a whole other issue.
Speaker 10 (37:33):
Yes, yes, I think that would also depend upon what
gun you would carry in that position, if it doesn't
have a manual safety and a lot of people don't.
But I wouldn't feel comfortable going from attending.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
Or a double action revolver or exactly if you're doing that.
Speaker 6 (37:49):
Yeah, yeah, I find myself carrying a double action appendix
quite a bit like in my shop or my own property.
Speaker 5 (37:58):
You know.
Speaker 6 (37:59):
It's just a quick way to put on a gun
and very.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Handy and frankly, a two inch barrel revolver is not
going to poke you too much. So that's the possibility
to you.
Speaker 10 (38:07):
A number of our instructors the two inch revolver. They
carry their snake shot rounds that in an appendix.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Scare Oh interesting, Yeah, as you are in snake country,
yes we are.
Speaker 10 (38:17):
We name our baseball team after snakes. Okay, snakes are
everywhere here. With that I've come up with as opposed
to slug Select snake Select, I just keep a separate
magazine that's a different color, the furthest.
Speaker 5 (38:31):
One back and interesting.
Speaker 10 (38:32):
I'm going to just go with that with my semiato
and get it into the gun, charge it and do
what I.
Speaker 5 (38:38):
Have to do with snake prob.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
What's your website, sir, Simply rugged dot com. Simply Rugged
dot com, gentlemen, thank you so much. Paul, appreciate it.
I'll pull you off the range. You're actually out here
doing some practice and shooting yourself. But I'll be spending
the week with you. If it sounds like I'm looking
forward to it, I think I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 5 (38:55):
We'll fight you on Friday.
Speaker 3 (38:56):
We'll find out. There you go, there you go. Thank you, gentlemen.
All right, I'm Tom Grescha. This is gun Talk. We
are live at gun Site. Yeah, the gun Training Gun
Fighting Training Academy in Arizona.
Speaker 5 (39:15):
Well that was fun.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
During the break, we're actually did a whole nother segment
of gun Talk. We're just sitting here with the guys
who we're talking about, you know, ramped barrels and nine
eleve nineteen eleven's and shooting the compact versions and forty
five lightweight commanders, and nobody wants to shoot a lightweight
commander forty five. In five days of shooting here at
gun Site, I gave it a quick check, I said,
(39:39):
took it out to the rain, shot a little bit
when Yeah, no, we're not doing that. That's a lot
more recoil. It just is, and recoil is real. And
so we're gonna be doing five days of shooting. They
say the figure on a thousand rounds. Haven't done it before?
I can tell you probably eight hundred to one thousand.
The other part of it is you can manage your
(40:00):
the shot count. You don't have to keep pouring shots
into the target. If they say, you know, just go
ahead and shoot, you can shoot two or three times
instead of shooting six or eight times. So you get
a choice on a lot of this. If you've not
been to a shooting school and look, and I recommend
guns sight, but I also recommend some others as well.
And how many times have I said it, You owe
(40:24):
it to yourself to try it. It is. The problem
is it's difficult to explain it to somebody who's never
been to it. I've had a number of people on
the show who listened year after year and me talking
about it, and they finally decided to go do it,
and inevitably they come back and say, now I understand.
(40:44):
It's kind of like the folks who finally listen and say, oh,
you've been talking about the need to have a good
belt for all this time and I finally bought a
good belt. You know, it really makes a difference. Yeah,
it does. It makes all the difference means pardon me,
I'm fighting the pollen out here. The juniper, which I
(41:06):
guess is a version of cedar, is blooming and it's
really got me nailed. So I'm better living through flow,
naise and drugs right now. So we'll get our way
through here, but occasion then we'll take a quick breakout
to cough. We'll cover that up. So what are we
gonna be doing out here? Where are we gonna be
shooting a bunch of guns? We're going to learn or
relearn if you will the draw the presentation and people say,
(41:27):
well you just draw the gun. No no, no, no.
If that's what you're doing, we need to talk because
it is a multi step system, and they teach a
building block system here of we're going to teach you
how to grip the gun, how to draw it straight up,
how to rotate the gun by dropping your elbow, how
to marry your hands up, extend them out, press them
in front of your face, acquire the sites, and then
(41:50):
press the trigger. And then there's more to it than that.
Here's my tidbit. Let me just share this with you.
I see this all the time. People shoot once and
then they drop the gun out of their sight. It's
like as soon as the shot is gone, and sometimes
even before it's gone, they have given up on the
shot and relaxed. If you would do this, make this
(42:12):
a part of your regular routine. When you fire the
shot out of your pistol, prepare to shoot again. So
for each shot you fire, you have two sight pictures,
one before and one after. And what that does is
it forces you to follow through and to keep the
sights on the target. Because the reality is, what you're
(42:35):
often doing is starting to relax just as the shot
is fired and maybe relaxing your grip, maybe dropping the
gun a little bit, maybe picking your head up to
see where the shot went. But if you'll stay focused
with a nice tight grip and keep your eyes on
those sights as though you were about to shoot it again,
(42:56):
you will complete that shot better. And here's the reality.
Nothing says that one SHOT's going to end that fight.
You may need another shot. Well, why would you drop
the gun back down out of your sights and have
to pick it back up to reacquire the threat that's
in front of you. Just stay on the threat. You
don't have to pull the trigger but you got to
be ready to pull the trigger. It really is as
simple as that. And you Someone said, look, handgun bullets
(43:19):
are like medicine. Sometimes it takes them a while to
start working. You may have to apply more medicine as
it goes along because these events are happening very quickly,
and handgun bullets may take two, three, four, five. I
don't know how many it's gonna take. You don't know
how many it's gonna take. But if you train as
though you're going to need more, then you'll be ready
(43:39):
for that. Hey, when we come back, I'll tell you
about a way that you may save your life after
you get into a self defense shooting
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Speaker 2 (00:17):
He was the first and he's still the best. For
thirty years, Tom Gresham has been your trusted source on
all things ballistic, new guns, Second Amendment, personal protection, deep
part of it. Paul, Tom Talk gun Now, here's Tom.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Okay sat lov We're going to have a bunch of
fun today. I'm Tom Gresham and this is gun Talk.
We're gonna have to put up with a little bit here.
I'm out in Arizona. I'm Aska at Gunsight. We're doing
the show live broadcast from Gunslight, the entire show today
Gunsight Academy. The pollen is blooming and I am suffering
from it, and so you just got to put up
with that. So if you hear me go away for
(00:57):
a second, it's me coughee. I'll be right back. But
other than that, we're having a great time. Why in
the world did we come all the way out here
to Gunsite, the Harvard if you will, of gunfighting schools, Well,
because it's a special time It's obviously it's Mother's day,
so we're doing that, but also it is the birthday
of Jeff Cooper, the founder of Gunsite and actually the
(01:20):
founder of the modern technique of the pistol. We're joined
right now by the CEO of Gunsight, Ken Campbell, joins us.
Hey doing, my friend Tom.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
I'm always excited to be on the show with, even
better when I'm sitting across the table.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
It is more fun doing it's face to face, isn't it.
It is. As for those who don't know your background,
as you've been in law enforcement most of your life,
I guess.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
I did thirty five years at a sheriff's office in
the Midwest. I did my last eight years as the
sheriff in Indiana. There's term limits on constitutional offices and
good Lord, smile, good Lord smile, domb because I maxed
my pension and termed out at the same time. I'd
(02:01):
like to say I was smart enough plant that way,
but it was just the good Lord smiling on me.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
That's great. So now you are the CEO at Gunsight,
and it's been two three years since I've been here,
and it's like a different place you have. I came
up here and looked like you had bulldozed the whole
place and put up new buildings.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Well, we've we've spent about three million dollars give or
take in capital improvements in the last three years. We
continue to grow. We've had eleven record student years. COVID
was a record year last year, even with what they
call the Trump slump in our industry. That was a
(02:39):
record year. So we keep moving forward. With all this
record number of students, it was time to start making
some changes here.
Speaker 5 (02:45):
A lot of these buildings.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
Are fifty, forty thirty years old, right, and it was
time to make some changes. So Buzzmills, who's you'll be
talking to him later today. He's the owner of a
gun site.
Speaker 5 (02:57):
He came in.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
He and his wife Sonia, came in twenty seven years
ago and saved gun site.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
They did. They literally saved the place.
Speaker 5 (03:04):
They did.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
There was another owner between Jeff Cooper and Buzz and Sognia,
and unfortunately the business suffered as a result of that.
But they came in and saved it. So now if
you haven't been here in a bunch of years, the
road is paved. The rental car companies should have chipped
in and helped pay for that. So realignment faith.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
And what we says, yes.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
So, but we've got a new office, new pro shop,
the most dangerous place at GOUT. It's forty nine hundred
square feet, a brand new mess deck where you eat lunch.
We can see it one hundred and twenty five in there.
We've got a brand new maintenance barn. We had to
with record student numbers, we needed more seating capacity, so
we built a bigger bathroom. And depending on when you
(03:50):
came out to gun site, either the classroom or the
pro shop is now back to classrooms. So we have
three full sized cat classrooms plus the small registration classroom.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
And for those who don't know, let me explain, it's
not like you come out here and there's a range.
Oh no, how many ranges do you have on the facility?
Speaker 4 (04:09):
I hope our insurance company isn't listening, because we admit
twenty seven the insurance company. We can shoot from contact
out to twenty four hundred here. Welcome to Disneyland.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
With gun it is all of that, and it's one
of the reasons people come out for the first time
and they go, I don't know what I'm getting into
and by the time they finish the first class, they're
planning the second class.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
I talk on Monday morning, and you're in class tomorrow,
so you'll hear me talk about it. I talk about
the recidibus.
Speaker 5 (04:36):
Now.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
In my prior life as a county sheriff, that wasn't
a good thing, right, that was not a good thing.
But here we have a very high recidivism rate, and
that's a wonderful thing. We've got some folks. I tell
them that first class is just a gateway drug and
they'll be back in five times, ten times, fifteen, fifty
seventy five. I've got a few students over one hundred times.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
A hundred times.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
Yes, sir, I can document it. I don't have to
make it up. Wow.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Of course you have all these different classes, so you
could take all these handgun classes, and then you could
take specialized classes and the red Dot classes, and you
can take rifle class and it takes a shotgun class.
You could take hunter prep are going to Africa classes,
I mean.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Edged weapons, tactical medicine, advanced tactical medicine, and on and on.
It's just go to gunsight dot com and scroll down.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
If you never know who I mean there will be
people teaching here that will surprise you, from Steve Trani
to Rob Latham to of course the gun site instructors
and rains masters, all world class because if they're not,
they don't get there will be here.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
It's nine percent of our instructors or military law enforcement
or both, either active duty or retired. A small percentage
are like for our hunter classes, they are Safari Guide
or they're North America Specialist Guide, so they're very specialized
when they're teaching you. I'm getting ready to head out
for a black bear hunt tomorrow, sorry a week from tomorrow,
(06:01):
and I can't wait. But the Safari prep class I
took has really got me excited ready to gear it
up for that, and so we offer a lot.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Let's take a break here, because not a break for
the show. I want to switch subjects. Today would have
been Jeff Cooper's one hundred and sixth birthday, correct, Colonel
Jeff Cooper. I think there are a lot of people
now who are all in the tactical world and everything
else and they don't know that the things that they
are doing were actually developed by Jeff Cooper fifty plus
(06:34):
years ago.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
That's correct. He developed what's called the modern technique of
the pistol. And if you don't know who he is,
especially if you're in the firearms industry, go on to
your favorite search engine and look.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
He was a renaissance man.
Speaker 6 (06:47):
He was.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
He was one of the first people who had a
background in firearms, a background in fighting from the Marine Corps.
And then he started studying at Big Bear Lake in
the real world competitions that were the precursor to IPSICK
and IDPA and so on. And then he was also
a college professor.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
He's a historian, So.
Speaker 5 (07:11):
Yeah, Soul.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
He developed lesson plans. He saw what worked, he studied it,
and he put it in a lesson plan, which turned
into what we call the modern technique.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
It's not enough to know how to do it, you
have to learn how to teach it. Those are different skills,
that's correct.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
So in nineteen seventy six he opened up gun Sight.
It was one hundred and sixty two acres. There were
two square ranges, one live fire shoot house and one
outdoor simulator. And now we're thirty two hundred plus acres
with the twenty seven ranges, multiple live fire, indoor outdoor
simulators and we still teach the modern technique, but it
has evolved.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
I'm just going to say it's not exactly the song.
He would recognize it, but it's not exactly what he taught.
Just like everything is evolved. If you were car racing
or anything else, you figured, Okay, let's try this. Oh
that works a little better, let's tweak that.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
Exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
That's what you've been doing exactly. It's what works in
the real world, not what we read in on the internet.
Oh God help us there. But it's what really works
in the military world, in the civilian world, in the
gunfighting world, and that's what we're teaching. We're teaching good
people how to stay alive, and that has not changed,
(08:19):
but the evolution of the modern technique has. We still
get the people. If you foolishly read the comments on
you know, on social media, put oh, well they take
rebar and drive your feet into this position. They only
shoot nineteen eleven pistols only do that. That's right. None
of those people have never been here. We teach a
modern fting stance. We were just talking a little bit
(08:40):
ago about the one hundredth anniversary the nineteen eleven.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
The classes we did that was in the class.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
That same year we did the twenty fifth anniversary of
the glock pistol four block. We have a gun Sight
Block Service pistol. We have a one of our fiftieth
anniversary pistols is a shadow Systems pistol. So we have
a because gunfighting has evolved.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Well exactly for I have to go to my break here.
I do want to ask you, no doubt you have
had a number of students report back and say I
had to use my skills that I learned at gun Sight.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
Yes, sir, every month. But you know what the most
important one is is the one that says, I paid
attention in the mindset lecture. That's the most important lecture,
and I saw something it didn't seem right, and I
walked away. If you can avoid the gunfight, that's the
best gunfight you're ever going to win.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
People don't understand that. They'll say, well, now you're going
to a gunfighting school because you want to get into
a gunfight. No, it's a life altering experience. You may
not have understood before you got here. But after your
five day first class, which is a two fifty class here,
you come out here thinking I know how to do this,
but I don't ever want to have to do this.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
In my prior life. Charge we're going in, me and
my guys and gals were going in. That's what guys,
you're doing that stuff or just regular patrol deputy they're
going to go in. That was that was the goal there.
But that's not my life now. And if if I'm
coming to help you, Bob, my wife, you know, close people,
(10:14):
that's one thing. But if I can if I can avoid,
and I can just stand and watch and pick my point,
if I need to intervene from concealment or cover, that's
an A plus plus plus answer.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Well exactly. That's the kind of things that are being
taught here Gunsight. And it is the fiftieth year for
Insight fifty years, so you got all sorts of things
going on this year.
Speaker 5 (10:33):
Oh, we sure do.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Where the world is doing hold that thought. We're going
to take a break, go back. We're gonna talk about
fifty years at gun Site and what that means. And
there's still a lot of this year left. People can
go sign up check it out gun Sites to U
and s I T E dot com. I'm Tom Gresha.
We'll be right back with more gun.
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Speaker 3 (13:39):
All right back with here, we're at live at gun Site.
We're here. It's the fiftieth year for gun Site, and
of course it is the would have been the one
hundred and sixth birthday for Jeff Cooper, the founder of
gun Site, and we're visiting with Ken Campbell, he's the CEO.
And we've got a lot of people who are going
to be here. We actually have some guests who are
going to be calling in. We've got a lot of
things going on. Unfortunately, because we're just full of guests,
(14:02):
there's no room. Fortunately, I have to say this for
you to call in, that's okay. Just sit back. You're
going to enjoy this. So, Kim, we were talking about
this being the fiftieth year, and I know people think, well, yeah,
don't you at some point just run out of people
who want to take a class like this.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
No, we don't.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
We're into second and third generation families coming here now,
whether it's granddad coming with grandson or granddaughter or grandma
coming with. One of my favorite clients is she was
an lol little old lady and she'd come from the
West Coast and she'd come every year and do a
private class. And then one year, one summer, she came
(14:39):
for three days with her grandson who just graduated high school,
and she said, you know, I could have bought him
a new car for graduation, but he will this is
a life saving skill and he will remember this time
with me the rest of his life. Now you put
a dollar.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Value on Oh yeah, there it is.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Is one of my favorite little old ladies from church
back home when we were in with the youth group.
She'd come up and she'd pat me on the cheek
like little old ladies were wanting to do, and she'd go, honey,
you're making memories.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
There you go.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
And what better way with the life savings you do it?
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Yeah, I'm going to say, and saving lives at the
same time. So you got all these classes house business.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
Oh again, eleven record years in a row. This year
we're two one hundred plus ahead of where we were
a year ago, projecting to year's end. For the gun
Side Alumni shoot, that's the big fiftieth anniversary party. It's
coming up the third of October.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
You have to have been through a guns like class yees,
it's in.
Speaker 4 (15:35):
A three day or more pistol class in order to
attend an alumni shoot, because it's not it's it's it's
a shot. It's a social engagement slightly interrupted by gunfire.
I like it, but it's serious shooting going on. So
we're at three hundred enrolled. Last year we had just
under three hundred. We're anticipating four hundred, but we're prepared
(15:56):
for that. We know how we're going to get four
hundred folks through on all our stages, and there's got
to be some fun retro stuff go.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Okay, So what's going on? Why is business up? When
you talk to people and now do you ask them,
you ask them for the first time is why did
you come here?
Speaker 4 (16:15):
It's several things here and we've even seen some changes
where we added a class called Day zero, but we
can come back to that. But it's whether it's defund
the police, whether it's the riots, whether it's people recognizing
the world is not the place it once was and
I need to learn how to protect myself. So as
a result of that, we're seeing more and more non
traditional gun owners coming into our classes, and that's wonderful
(16:39):
because that lets them recognize we all put our pants
on the same way, and thank goodness, we do have
that silly thing called the Second Amendment in our Constitution
that lets us do that.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
But and it's great that they're buying a gun for
self defense, but it's what's more important, even better it's
the fact that they're recognizing I don't know exactly what
to do with this. I'm going to go figure this
thing out.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
And Jeff Pimper, just because you on a piano does
not make you a musician.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Exactly, And all you have to do is go to
a public range to find out that Irna pistol does
not make your first alero.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
It's frightening exactly. So we're seeing more and more.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
We even do this day zero and it's a class
on Sunday. We started it with pistol and now we're
doing it with carbing modern sporting rifle. Okay, so many
folks coming in with zero gun experience, so they never
shot on a firing line. It literally would bring the.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Gun box going in the cardboard box it came in.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
So Day zero's slower paced.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
We'll have a half a dozen eight people in the class,
so it's not a line of a dozen shooters with
brass going off. They're understanding things we covered on Monday,
but we're moving pretty quick on Monday.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
So they're not overwhelmed on Monday exactly.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
So in two years, I didn't know what people to think.
I'm trying to get another day's tuition. That's not what
it was about. And in two years of doing this,
I've had zero negative evaluations. Every student is offered the
opportunity to give an evaluation. I've had three people come
up at the end of day zero and say, you know,
I don't think this is for me, And that's okay.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Interesting.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
That's better than me going down on Tuesday say it's
not for you, Say come on up to the principal's
office with me.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Yeah, and that's okay. That's a boy. That's an honest assessment.
It is, and a difficult one.
Speaker 5 (18:24):
It is.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
Some people are better off with the Louisville Slugger than
they are a cle nineteen eleven. It's just a fact
of life. But so our business has grown. We try
to stay cutting Jeff Cooper was cutting edge fifty years ago,
forty years ago and so on, and we try to
stay cutting edge as well. That's why we teach classes
(18:45):
with these new pistol mounted optics. Aren't new fangled, they're
not their future. They're today. Yes, seventy eighty percent of
our students have pistol mounted offer really yes, now not
this week.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
This week we're doing the nineteen elevens, iron sights and
leather holsters.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
Jeff Cooper wouldn't have it. Why are you now if
you're carrying a nine millimeters nineteen eleven, Well, we may
judge you a little bit with a look.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Down our nose scats a bit, but that's okay, Yeah,
it's okay, but it's a yeah, this is fun. This
is a two fifty class. Actually you end up filling
up two of them. We did, So we're going to
do two of these two fifty classes this week. I
tell people this is like a bunch of folks racing
their classic cars. That's kind of that way. Yeah, we
know about the others. We have the others, you know,
(19:33):
and we all have high cap nines and everything else.
But this week we're wanting to shoot these guns. Why
because we like them all?
Speaker 4 (19:39):
Oh absolutely, We've got two of our classic cars. Well,
we got two of our classic range masters, Dave Harrison,
Mario Marchman. There's a few of us left, half a
dozen or eight that actually learned from Jeff Cooper, and uh,
they're two of them, and so they're going to be
in class. Steve Hendricks he's one also, he's going to
be one of the coaches, so it'll be a more
(20:00):
a traditional class and.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
Let me jump in there. And you know, we've got
the place down in Louisiana, rains ready and Ryan runs
that and we offer half a dozen classes. I mean,
we're not a training facility. We don't pretend to be.
We offer some classes and people say, well, where should
I go? And our answer is always the same. We
don't really care. As long as you go get good
training somewhere.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
Good training, that's the key.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Good training, that's it. And we say, look, go to Gunsite,
go to Thunderanch, there's baby call it. Half a dozen
places that I would say, have no problem recommending, but
just go get some training. But I would also tell
you the part of that is, over the last twenty years,
I've told a number of my friends and people who
I care about I trust, I said, look, here's the deal.
(20:46):
You go to Gunsite. If after the fifth day on
your two fifty class you don't think it's worth it,
I'll pay for it for you. I've never had anybody
take me up on that.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
Yeah, I've been here full time twelve plus years, and
I say every Monday morning you can prove to me.
On Friday afternoon. You applied yourself, you tried, you had
an open mind, and you learn nothing. I'll give you
your money back. And I've done it twice, kidd. And
some people just choose to keep their mind closed up
like a fist.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Can't be helped. They can't people, I don't care what.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
I had an old sheriff that said, there's some people
you could. You could stand on the courthouse square and
hand out one hundred dollars bills and they'd still make
a bunch of them angry, complaining, right they would. So
I've done it twice. So I'll take that record with
the thousands of students along and.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
There it is. You are the Harvard of gun and
I got about twenty seconds left here, So tell people
what they need to know and then give them your
line baby.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
Gunsight dot com it's where you go visit Ken kay
in at gunsite dot com. And in the meantime, when
are you coming to gunsite there?
Speaker 3 (21:52):
It is all right, Ken Campbell, thank you for and
thank you so much for hosting this. This is wonderful
to be able to do the show here.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Well, well we're going to beat up pretty good this week.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Oh I know. I figured that I'd always get beat
up when I'm in this class. I come in thinking
I don't know anything, and you kind of reaffirm that
with me, make sure I know. All right, don't go anywhere, guys,
We're gonna be right back. We've got a lot of
stuff going on. We are live from gun Site. I'm
Tom Gresham. This is gun Talk. All right back with
(22:24):
you here. We are live at Gunsite. The well, the
gunfighting school is what it really is, people that shoot
you school well, it is kind of They do teach
you to shoot, but mostly they teach you to fight.
The two are different gun fighting. The operative phrase in
that is fight you learn to fight with a gun.
If you want to check it out Gunsight gu n
s I te dot Com having some fun here bringing
(22:45):
in a whole bunch of different people because I'm here
for this. Uh well, it's Jeff Cooper two fifty class.
The two fifty is the number they use for their
introductory pistol class. And people say, well, why are you
taking the two fifty class. Haven't you taken that before? Yep,
I've taken the two fifty class a couple of times.
Why do you take it? Because I learned something every time.
I take it simple as that I need the brush up,
(23:05):
I need the refreshers. So there you are. We're joined
right now by Rob Lady from Simpling the Rugged Holsters,
and Paul introduced yourselfter you with place.
Speaker 5 (23:13):
Hi.
Speaker 10 (23:14):
I'm Paul Garcia. I've lived down in Phoenix, Arizona. I
am a retired police officer from California, and I still
keep my hand in that part of the game, teaching
at a police academy, and I'm an instructor here at
Gunsite starting my tenth year. And I'll be one of
the coaches in the upcoming classes starting tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
So oh, so you're gonna be beating us up tomorrow.
Speaker 5 (23:35):
Yet I won't beat you up. I'll beat up the
other half.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yes you will. I know better than that. Here you are,
you got that beat. The look in your eyes, it's
like I got this guy. I'm gonna work him over. Rob,
You've been to this thing so many times. This is
like your second home over here.
Speaker 6 (23:50):
Oh yeah, it's really fun to be associated with Gunsite.
I grew up here in the seventies when it was founded,
worked in a reloading show up cast bullets for him.
Speaker 5 (24:02):
Then no kidding.
Speaker 6 (24:03):
Always wanted to get out here.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 6 (24:05):
Yeah, I didn't get out here until eleven, I think
the first time I took an off site course in
ninety six. But yeah, I've just become very enjoyable. Of course,
our mutual friend Ed had really integrated me.
Speaker 5 (24:19):
Well into this.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
How long have you been making holsters?
Speaker 6 (24:23):
Since I was a kid? But I started simply rugged
twenty two years ago.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Wow, okay. And you know, I know people say, gee,
people actually buy leather holsters these days, aren't they all
made of kay Deeks.
Speaker 5 (24:34):
Every day they have every day?
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Well why would they do that? Well, I'll tell you
why I do it. I still have a Milt Sparks
holster that was my first concealed carry holster, a summer special.
I started carrying it in seventy six. It still works
just like it did then. And I guarantee you there's
not a Kaydex culture. It's going to make fifty years. No.
Speaker 6 (24:59):
Yeah, it is first a pleasure of mine. I like
working with leather, and I like collecting holsters. I had
a huge holster collection that I actually sold down and
traded down to get into business. And I've slowly built
that back up, but it's outstanding stuff.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Yeah yeah, well you know, and all of us sitting
here right now have at least one, maybe a number
of different boxes of holsters. Paul, You're like, yeah, we
all got all these holsters, right, I mean, if you've
been at this any length of time, because you keep trying.
I'm trying to find the one that's just right for
this use and that use.
Speaker 10 (25:36):
I have rubber made bins full of holsters and mag pouches.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Yep. Yeah, well I think we all do exactly Excuse me,
all right, So, Paul, I wanted to bring you in
because you've got a foot in both worlds here. You
do competition shooting and you teach gun fighting and skills
and police work. How do those crossover? What can somebody
get from each of those?
Speaker 10 (26:01):
They are definitely different, But I a strong believer in
fast and accurate shooting and superior weapons handling can benefit
people on both sides of it. With the competition shooters
that I see, they are police officers, they are by
(26:22):
far the best shooters.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
In their department. Oh sure, I mean it's hands down.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Well we know, I mean not telling me stories that
most police officers are not real shooters, not real gun people.
Speaker 10 (26:35):
They aren't. And I gave you this little term earlier.
I do believe most police officers are professional shooters. They
only shoot when someone pays them to do it.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
You got robbed with that one.
Speaker 5 (26:50):
It is so true, and I'll stand by that statement.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Yeah, because that's just not their hobbyists, not their thing.
You know. They carry a gun because they're paid to
carry a gun, and they shoot when they're paid to shoot. Okay,
fair enough. But for those of us who are not cops,
and I've always said to people, people say, well, they
should say, I would love it if they did. How
do I know if I'm any good? Because if all
you do is go to the range and shoot, and
(27:13):
you've never shot against anybody, and you haven't used any
kind of measurement system, you don't have any idea if
you're any good or not.
Speaker 10 (27:20):
Absolutely you can feel good about it, but what's that right?
Speaker 5 (27:24):
You need to test yourself, you know.
Speaker 10 (27:27):
Jeff Cooper actually insisted on having a competitive component in
each of the classes here at Gunsight.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
And still today. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
Yes, you'll do.
Speaker 10 (27:37):
It Friday afternoon and we have a mini competition usually
about Tuesday Wednesday, afternoon just shooter versus shooter on steel targets.
Of course, we don't want to cut down the student
body that much, and that's been a long time thing here.
Jeff Cooper is one of the founders of competitive shooting.
I prefer to actually even just call it practical shooting.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Okay.
Speaker 10 (27:59):
He was part of the founding members International Practical Shooting Confederation, right,
he was right there at the beginning, so he had
obviously a foot in both doors. And I think it's
important for us to maybe get a little bit back
towards that. There's a big divide between competition shooters and
people that consider them selves tactical shooters.
Speaker 5 (28:21):
They don't need to be mutually exclusive.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
No, no, because you should be able to pull from
each And look, if you're a full on competitive shooter,
you probably don't have the skills you need to be
a really good defensive practical shooter, and vice versa. If
you all you ever do is go to gunsite, you'll
learn a lot of stuff, but you could be better
if you tried competition shooting.
Speaker 5 (28:43):
Well more oil rounded.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:46):
One of the things we see with.
Speaker 6 (28:47):
Competition shooters that come here to gunsite is this is
a hot range and they're so used to shooting on
cold ranges.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
We'll explain. People don't even know what you what do
you mean when you say hot range?
Speaker 6 (28:58):
Explain that when you come to gunsite your guns loaded
and ready to go, and it's incumbent upon you to
keep your gun loaded and ready to go, you don't
clear and the show right.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
No this you know, unload and show clear and all that. No,
it's like the gun should be like what do we
say A holstered gun is a safe gun?
Speaker 6 (29:14):
Yes, And we have people here. I've seen instructors here
with training stars from tramp competition out there on the
line getting ready to go and there's no mag and
everybody's like nudge and nudge walk what you know, watch
them they're gonna mess up.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (29:29):
Jeff Quinn years ago got one of the instructors stuffed
a bunch of little baby Ruth candy bars in the Magwell, no,
st I forty and we're all sitting back there waiting
for it to happen. She brought up her gun and
it rained candy bar.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Jeez, well it just kind of making a point. But yeah,
this is a it's a hot range. We run hot range.
At our place down Louisiana, and people are uncomfortable with that.
Speaker 5 (29:57):
At first.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
They don't if if ever done it before. They think, wow,
all these guns are loaded and it's funny. After about
an hour they go, well, that's no big deal. It's like,
why would you worry about that?
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Right?
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Right?
Speaker 11 (30:08):
None of them went off while they were in the holsters. Yes,
adult rules, adult rules, that's right. This is serious. Look,
carrying a gun is serious stuff. It just is, you know,
and you can get hurt doing this. You got to
acknowledge that going into it. So let's be smart.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
That's why everywhere you walk around here you got the
four rules of gun safety posted. If you will follow
those rules, you might possibly have a gun go off
sometime in your life, but it's not going to be
catastrophic because you didn't point it at somebody or at yourself.
All right, So what would you tell people, Paul I say?
(30:44):
If you say, okay, I'm really more interested in the
self defense side of things, but I'm hearing you. I
hear what you're saying, and i want to go try
some competition. What should they try? What did they try
to get out of it?
Speaker 5 (30:55):
A lot of it will depend upon what competitions they
are offered in their area.
Speaker 10 (31:00):
Where I've lived in different areas of the country, IDPA
International Defensive Pistol Association, that was the predominant sport that
was being shot in that area. Down where I live
in the Phoenix area, United States, Practical Shooting Association is
the more dominant sport being shot.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Okay.
Speaker 10 (31:19):
IDPA does give some they try to have some tactical factors,
but in the end, it's still a sport with a
clock and a score sheet. USPSA makes no bones about it.
We're trying to go as fast as that as we can. Yes,
it is a pure game.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
Yeah, which is okay as long as you understand that
you're not really getting defensive training out of this.
Speaker 10 (31:40):
No, make no qualm about whatsoever it is. It is
not defensive or tactical training whatsoever.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I've seen at least one of those shooters at a
class here one time. We're going through the donga, which
you know is basically a washed dry wash, and he
is moving so fast he is blowing past targets that
he didn't see him in time. It would have been
a terrible self defense deal. But boy, he went fast
and hit targets. It's like, okay, yeah, but you got shot, dude.
(32:08):
It's like, this is not kind of the goal here.
Speaker 6 (32:11):
Yeah, it's hunting racing.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Yeah it is, all right. So all right, tell me
if I'm looking at a leather holster, no, I'm gonna
back up scratch that. This is the fiftieth year of
gun Site. You brought out some cool product for the
fiftieth year of gun Site. Yep. Talk talk to me
about that for a second.
Speaker 6 (32:30):
Well, we did three holsters. I make pancakes, of course,
so one of them is a pancake holster. It's our
deft Con that you can wear inside the waistband or
on your belt. I've used him for years as the
main holster I use every day, and I've come here
and ran a weak course using that inside the waistband version.
(32:54):
Not everybody gets to do that. You gotta prove yourself,
you know that you're gonna handle it directly, and that's
widely popular, very versatile, everyday carry holster. And we brought
out a very economical holster. It's just a we call
it the range Master. It's just a really easy belt
(33:18):
holster with.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
It doesn't set you back, you know, a bunch of money. Yeah,
and you've got fifty gun Sight fiftieth anniversary models. Yes
on these are available booth from your website and from
the pro shop here.
Speaker 6 (33:31):
Yes, if you're a gun Sight alumni, then you can
get that raven deal that Buzz asked me to do.
And nice, let's lets me do that. But they got
to be gun Side alumni, okay. And then the final
holster we did, we changed their old competitor around, updated
it made it a little lighter and faster to use.
(33:53):
And that's the one you'll see uh in the pro
shop the most and on the hips of people around
or a competitor model, and it's a vertical carry, that's all.
These are optic ready by the way, okay. And they'll
straddle the belt loop so okay, real fun, comfortable holster.
Speaker 5 (34:13):
You could wear it all day.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Long and no people will say, well, you know, Kaydex
is faster. Kay Deex may be slicker, but a good
leather holster is. I don't see any difference. Stamp correct
where do you think, Paul?
Speaker 10 (34:26):
I disagree? You like the KAIDEKX I do I have seen?
Matter of fact, you brought up Milt Sparks it is.
Jim wall now runs that place. I had shot with
him in Idaho. He draws from a leather pancake holster
and he has a grand Master cost shooter. It doesn't
slow him down one bit. Okay, in general though, I
(34:47):
think it's a faster draw coming out of Kaydex than leather.
Maybe it's a matter of breaking in that leather. Jim
Walt holster is very well.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
Well, Yeah, I shot with you have about three three
weeks ago. Rather we're doing a revolver shoot there. So yeah,
it's kind of scary what the guy can do. Yes, yes,
but that goes to people who are really good, are
generally pretty good with everything.
Speaker 5 (35:06):
Probably so.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
But but you know, you make a point you need
to break in a leather holster or get slicker with
where after a while.
Speaker 5 (35:13):
Absolutely it does.
Speaker 3 (35:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (35:15):
One thing leather holsters don't do is fall apart like
KAIDEKX does so often.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
Here I have had.
Speaker 6 (35:22):
Somebody comes to me, can you build me a holster
in a day. Yes, we'll get a holster for you.
Because you're at gunsight in the middle of training and
your ex brand holster they didn't bother to put lock
tight on the screws.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yeah, I have had the screws come out of my holsters.
Speaker 10 (35:36):
Yes, I am sure we if we look closely, we
have probably ankled deep in screws out on all of
our ranges.
Speaker 5 (35:44):
They constantly fall.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Is that right? So what do you recommend? Put lock?
Speaker 10 (35:49):
Put lock tight on everyone except for the ones that
actually adjust attention to the holster, the ones that hold
them together. You've got to put lock tight on because
apparently the manufacturers aren't. There's some colored blue thing on.
It doesn't hold the screwing.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Oh, interesting, because it looks like it's like it.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
Looks like it. Well, if so, it sure doesn't work. Wow.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Okay, that's good to know. So don't don't assume get
it done yourself. Put the lock tight on. If you're
going to be doing that, absolutely fair enough. All right,
talk to me if you were all about different positions
Appendix three o'clock any other place that people want to
wear their guns. Do you have a preference for what
you do when you're carrying?
Speaker 10 (36:28):
Yes, maybe I would draw from appendix if I did
not have a front mounted rucksack. It is uncomfortable for
me to sit down with a gun.
Speaker 5 (36:37):
Stick to me in the gus.
Speaker 6 (36:39):
I'm a little slow.
Speaker 10 (36:40):
I've seen people draw very fast from appendix. It's inside
basically their torso. It is a shorter distance to draw
that gun out. It is personally, I don't do it
that And being in law enforcement for thirty plus years,
you know what that gun was always at three o'clock.
I could almost guarantee you in a critical incident, I'm
(37:03):
going to three o'clock very first thing, no.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Matter where it is, matter, that's where you're gonna be
looking for.
Speaker 11 (37:08):
That's going to be the first motion to it. And
then just the comfort level. Well, I'm the same way.
It's like, and I think different torsos are different. You
have short torsos long and when I try appendix, it
just pinches me. Something terrible pokes into my leg. I'm thinking,
what you know? And I got no torso basically, so
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
What it is. But I can't do it either. And
I know people say, well, I'm worried about where it's pointing.
Well that's the other issue. That's a whole other issue.
Speaker 10 (37:33):
Yes, yes, I think that would also depend upon what
gun you would carry in that position, if it doesn't
have a manual safety and a lot of people don't.
But I wouldn't feel comfortable going from attending.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
Or a double action revolver or exactly if you're doing that.
Speaker 6 (37:49):
Yeah, yeah, I find myself carrying a double action appendix
quite a bit like in my shop or my own property.
Speaker 5 (37:58):
You know.
Speaker 6 (37:59):
It's just a quick way to put on a gun
and very.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Handy and frankly, a two inch barrel revolver is not
going to poke you too much. So that's the possibility
to you.
Speaker 10 (38:07):
A number of our instructors the two inch revolver. They
carry their snake shot rounds that in an appendix.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Scare Oh interesting, Yeah, as you are in snake country,
yes we are.
Speaker 10 (38:17):
We name our baseball team after snakes. Okay, snakes are
everywhere here. With that I've come up with as opposed
to slug Select snake Select, I just keep a separate
magazine that's a different color, the furthest.
Speaker 5 (38:31):
One back and interesting.
Speaker 10 (38:32):
I'm going to just go with that with my semiato
and get it into the gun, charge it and do
what I.
Speaker 5 (38:38):
Have to do with snake prob.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
What's your website, sir, Simply rugged dot com. Simply Rugged
dot com, gentlemen, thank you so much. Paul, appreciate it.
I'll pull you off the range. You're actually out here
doing some practice and shooting yourself. But I'll be spending
the week with you. If it sounds like I'm looking
forward to it, I think I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 5 (38:55):
We'll fight you on Friday.
Speaker 3 (38:56):
We'll find out. There you go, there you go. Thank you, gentlemen.
All right, I'm Tom Grescha. This is gun Talk. We
are live at gun Site. Yeah, the gun Training Gun
Fighting Training Academy in Arizona.
Speaker 5 (39:15):
Well that was fun.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
During the break, we're actually did a whole nother segment
of gun Talk. We're just sitting here with the guys
who we're talking about, you know, ramped barrels and nine
eleve nineteen eleven's and shooting the compact versions and forty
five lightweight commanders, and nobody wants to shoot a lightweight
commander forty five. In five days of shooting here at
gun Site, I gave it a quick check, I said,
(39:39):
took it out to the rain, shot a little bit
when Yeah, no, we're not doing that. That's a lot
more recoil. It just is, and recoil is real. And
so we're gonna be doing five days of shooting. They
say the figure on a thousand rounds. Haven't done it before?
I can tell you probably eight hundred to one thousand.
The other part of it is you can manage your
(40:00):
the shot count. You don't have to keep pouring shots
into the target. If they say, you know, just go
ahead and shoot, you can shoot two or three times
instead of shooting six or eight times. So you get
a choice on a lot of this. If you've not
been to a shooting school and look, and I recommend
guns sight, but I also recommend some others as well.
And how many times have I said it, You owe
(40:24):
it to yourself to try it. It is. The problem
is it's difficult to explain it to somebody who's never
been to it. I've had a number of people on
the show who listened year after year and me talking
about it, and they finally decided to go do it,
and inevitably they come back and say, now I understand.
(40:44):
It's kind of like the folks who finally listen and say, oh,
you've been talking about the need to have a good
belt for all this time and I finally bought a
good belt. You know, it really makes a difference. Yeah,
it does. It makes all the difference means pardon me,
I'm fighting the pollen out here. The juniper, which I
(41:06):
guess is a version of cedar, is blooming and it's
really got me nailed. So I'm better living through flow,
naise and drugs right now. So we'll get our way
through here, but occasion then we'll take a quick breakout
to cough. We'll cover that up. So what are we
gonna be doing out here? Where are we gonna be
shooting a bunch of guns? We're going to learn or
relearn if you will the draw the presentation and people say,
(41:27):
well you just draw the gun. No no, no, no.
If that's what you're doing, we need to talk because
it is a multi step system, and they teach a
building block system here of we're going to teach you
how to grip the gun, how to draw it straight up,
how to rotate the gun by dropping your elbow, how
to marry your hands up, extend them out, press them
in front of your face, acquire the sites, and then
(41:50):
press the trigger. And then there's more to it than that.
Here's my tidbit. Let me just share this with you.
I see this all the time. People shoot once and
then they drop the gun out of their sight. It's
like as soon as the shot is gone, and sometimes
even before it's gone, they have given up on the
shot and relaxed. If you would do this, make this
(42:12):
a part of your regular routine. When you fire the
shot out of your pistol, prepare to shoot again. So
for each shot you fire, you have two sight pictures,
one before and one after. And what that does is
it forces you to follow through and to keep the
sights on the target. Because the reality is, what you're
(42:35):
often doing is starting to relax just as the shot
is fired and maybe relaxing your grip, maybe dropping the
gun a little bit, maybe picking your head up to
see where the shot went. But if you'll stay focused
with a nice tight grip and keep your eyes on
those sights as though you were about to shoot it again,
(42:56):
you will complete that shot better. And here's the reality.
Nothing says that one SHOT's going to end that fight.
You may need another shot. Well, why would you drop
the gun back down out of your sights and have
to pick it back up to reacquire the threat that's
in front of you. Just stay on the threat. You
don't have to pull the trigger but you got to
be ready to pull the trigger. It really is as
simple as that. And you Someone said, look, handgun bullets
(43:19):
are like medicine. Sometimes it takes them a while to
start working. You may have to apply more medicine as
it goes along because these events are happening very quickly,
and handgun bullets may take two, three, four, five. I
don't know how many it's gonna take. You don't know
how many it's gonna take. But if you train as
though you're going to need more, then you'll be ready
(43:39):
for that. Hey, when we come back, I'll tell you
about a way that you may save your life after
you get into a self defense shooting
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