February 18, 2026 • 53 mins
Do you have a special dish that you adore and that you would go to the ends of the earth to taste and learn to cook to perfection? For food writer, Sylvie Bigar, that dish is cassoulet, a one pot comfort of simmering beans and meats with a savory crust born out southwest France (Occitane/Languedoc). In book, "Cassoulet Confessions" (Hardie Grant Books), Bigar shares her pursuit of authentic cassoulet, learning from the chef masters. Along the way she reveals the story of her life and family.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
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(00:21):
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Speaker 2 (00:44):
Award winning food and travel writer Sylvia b. Gar was
born in Geneva, Switzerland, and lives in New York City.
She's an accomplished writer whose writing has appeared in The
New York Times, Washington Posts, Food and Winesworpes dot Com,
bon Et Petite, and Many men or. She also writes
in French in La Figero, Eastuas magazine, Le Tomp and
French Mourning dot com. I've known Sylvia for a very
(01:09):
long time and admired her work. We've passed our paths
across several times in New York, and I was delighted
to see that she'd written a book with a very
interesting title, Casilea Confessions, and I was excited and said,
I must have this book. And as I read it,
I learned it's not just about the French Dish castile As,
(01:31):
but an incredible memoir that dives into her family and
her life growing up in Geneva and traveling the world
and you know, moving to New York and her own
family and dealing with the death of a father and
her sisters. There was so much there and I had
such a powerful connection with it as I was dealing
with my own family affairs at the time. So I
(01:55):
invited her on. We're gonna have a wonderful show talking
about life, love of food, and travel and castle at
So Sylvie, welcome.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Thank you, Thank you so much for having me on.
It is very exciting and I feel that connection with you.
I feel that the family issues are sort of universal.
We all have to go through that exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Well, you know the underlying tagline of the book, It's
called castile A Confessions, Food, France, family, and the stew
that saved my soul. That is what really hit me
because for me right now, writing about wine is kind
of saving my own soul as I grieve over the
loss of my mother. I do want to point out
(02:40):
that the publishers Hearty Grant Books, I think they do
a very good job. Now it's interesting. The cover of
this book has, of course this famous dish castle at
which we'll dive into. But at the very top is
a beautiful large mansion, which is where you grew up
in Geneva. So let's talk about that first, where you
grew up and Belchamp.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yes, so I grew up in the house that's on
the cover. And I do want to salute the designer
of the cover, Emily O'Neill, who did an amazing job
sort of taking the ingredients of the book, if I
may say so, and sort of creating a sort of
a you know, I don't know, some kind of a
(03:24):
of a design there that really touches people. But yes,
this house on the on Lake Geneva, thirty six rooms.
I say, it's sort of a mini Downton Abbey. It
was built in nineteen and sorry in seventeen thirty and
it's an amazing property. And my mom, bless her heart,
(03:45):
at ninety seven years old, is still living there in
this house.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
You said in the book you write your friends were
like you live in this house, and you had it
was downtown Abbey. You had servants, you had you know,
the servant area in the living area for your family,
and your your parents were quite elegant. Your father were
silk pajamas. He loved to sail. He had a very
beautiful Mediterranean complexion. And you had siblings. Talk to me
(04:13):
about your family. All families are complicated. You'res also, let's
start with your dad.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Okay, Well, maybe before we speak about him, perhaps I
can sort of explain that the beginning of my life
and my childhood, I didn't think there was anything special
about the way that I was living, because you know,
that's where I was born, that's your house, that was
the house that was home La Maison, right, And and
(04:44):
the fact that there was this family living next to
us is actually something that I'm still grappling with, and
particularly because they there was a couple, and they had
a son and a daughter, and the son was my age,
and he and I used to play together when when
(05:07):
we were you know, six and seven and ten. They
stayed with us a long time, and what's really interesting
is we would, you know, play together in the park.
It was a pretty large garden and then when it
was time for dinner, we would both you know, run
towards the house and race. But of course he went
(05:27):
towards the kitchen door and I went towards the you know,
the front door. And believe it or not, we actually
have reconnected he and I through Facebook. I found I
found him, and I went to Spain. I spent a
few days with him, and I was actually writing a
(05:49):
story about Paeya. And he lives in you know, near Valencia,
which is the birthplace of Paea, and and it was
amazing sort of comparing our childhood memories. So yeah, I
just thought it would be interesting to talk about this
a bit.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
It's you know, I love childhood innocence. Your friends are here,
you know, I used to. We had a woman who
cleaned our house and I played with her child all
the time. It was just perfectly normal. You play with
everybody and you don't think about the neighborhood they live in,
the neighborhood you live in, or whatever, and it's just
a wonderful time with.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Innocence exactly exactly. But so the family, I mean, I
think that I start the book with the sea at
the table, because you know, I'm a food and travel writer.
And it feels as though, you know, so much happens
right at the family table. I think we can all
(06:45):
relate to that. And so at the table, my father
is facing the lake, facing the park, and my mother's
next to him, and my three older sisters and I
are you know, around there, and of course I'm the
youngest by eight years, which is a lot. I believed
(07:07):
for decades. I believed what my mother said, which was that,
you know, they had ordered a little dessert as how
she you know, said it. And then as she aged,
you know, her social veneer sort of cracked a bit,
and then one day she did say, well, you know,
when I found out I was pregnant, and I was like, wait, what,
(07:32):
you didn't plan this? Well, no, of course she didn't.
You know, she had three daughters in four and a
half years and then nothing for eight years. So this
beautiful setting, you know, dinner, family at the table was
you know, full of stories, some true and some not.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
What are some of your favorite food memories when you
were a little around that tape? What did you eat?
Speaker 3 (08:02):
So I actually loved roasted chicken, but it wasn't a
roasted chicken that my mother made because my mother didn't cook.
The cook cooked. Actually, Carmela uh in the book is
the cook. And she made this amazing tarragon roasted chicken,
which is very easy, but because of the chicken that
(08:25):
we had at the time, I mean, it was you
know absolute, I mean it was deli sieur, right, it
was delicious. It's a very simple recipe, and I've tried
to make it many times, but you know, we can
never go back, right, and the kind of chicken that
we get today, even though I try, I get the
(08:46):
free range, I get the you know, D'artagnan's green circle,
you know, kind of rolls royce of the chicken. But
these these memories of food. So there's that, there's chocolate moose.
We made a really great chocolate moose. And then also
there's the way that my mother ate, as opposed to
(09:09):
the way we ate. But we can maybe get into
that a little later. She ate more delicately, right she Yeah,
my mother was anorexic, and she ate basically steamed vegetables,
you know, little pieces of meat here and there, a
(09:31):
lot of non fat vegetable broth that she actually ingested.
I found out later at the beginning of the meal
to curb her appetite.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
My mother was had an eating disorder at the end
of her life, so I can totally identify with that,
the little pieces, the small pieces, the avoidance of anything
that looked like a potato. I happened a lot of potatoes.
So here's the big question. When was the first time
you had castle let, Sylvie.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
So I had castoulet in the way that one is
supposed to have cassoulet, which is in France, in the
south of France, with ingredients from the land, in two
thousand and eight, which is quite late. But just because
we didn't eat like that, those those regional dishes and
(10:19):
especially this like one pot dish that you put in
the middle of the table and then you know, every
serve family style. This is not how I grew up, right,
We had a butler. The butler served us, served me,
you know, at age eight, and he did not serve
me you know, beans and pork. So yeah, it was
(10:41):
in two thousand and eight when I took this trip
that I thought would be a simple assignment. I was
working as a food and travel writer than in New
York City, and I was sent there by a wonderful
magazine that no longer exists.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Called Food Arts the Best.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
I'm sure you remember it.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Oh, yes, Michael Batterbury, the best, the best exactly.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
So Michael Batterbury was the first person to believe in
my writing and to say, you know, go to France
and come back, bring me, you know, a story on
the history of Cassoulet. And so that sounded amazing. French
is my first language. It was easy to get there,
to sort of speak to people, you know, in French
(11:30):
and get the stories. I thought it'd be a quick
trip story. I might even start in the plane on
the way back and then I move on. Well, in fact,
this trip and I you know, I keep saying that,
but it's true, this trip changed my life.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
So it's interesting. First of all, you know, kudos to
Michael and Arian Badbury for you know, they what I
love about them. And fortunately Michael's left this quite a
long time ago. They started Food in my magazine. They
were very proud of that, and then they started, you know,
amazing journalists careers, and then Food Arts really was a
(12:07):
definitive magazine and I was crushed when it was shuttered.
Was I yeah, Well, I'm sure you or you wrote
for them, I mean, first of all, that's it's very
hard to get outlets to rifle as it is. And
then for one of that level of quality that let
you do the kind of work that you were able
to do is rare, particularly these days. It's interesting because
(12:33):
pass Away is basically a peasant dish, and you grew
up in a wealthy environment. So it's an interesting juxtaposition
which kind of is woven throughout your book. Yes, absolutely,
and you this was a process because you wrote about
(12:55):
in twenty sixties. So just to enlighten listeners, you've quite
a bit of writing that is culinary and travel, and
you wrote an article that won a Society of American
Travel Writers Best Culinary Travel book, French Castle at and
Obsession Boils Over. Oh that was for the Washington Post, right,
(13:17):
so that won an award. So you've been you know,
it's now twenty twenty three, you have a book coming
out it so this has been a kind of is
it a lifelong session or is it one of Because
you love doing deep dives into dishes, I mean you
write about you just said you did an intensive article
on Paia as did I. I love diving into the
(13:39):
story behind one dish. I've done that many times in
my own writing. Is that something that you enjoy doing.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Yes, yes, I absolutely love that. And I love learning
about different cultures as well, not just French cuisine. I
did a story on cuisine of Saint Lucia with a
chef who is from Saint Lucia in the Caribbean. I
(14:05):
also write about things that are not food related. I
did a story on the work of a poet and politician,
Ame Cesre, who was, you know, the mayor of the
capital of Martinique. And I did a whole travel story,
you know, sort of guided by his poems on the
(14:28):
occasion of his hundred earth birthday. But what happened with
cassu Let has not happened with anything else. I have
to tell you. I took this trip in two thousand
and eight, and I became obsessed with this dish, and
I came back. I wrote the story for Food Arts.
It was nicely received, and then you know, I did
(14:51):
other things. I did stories on chefs in Lyon and Alzas,
and I went to Canada and the gas pep Peninsula
and all of these other stories. But this Casulet thing
kept gnawing at me, and so I tried to milk
(15:12):
it for you know, for everything that I could. I
wrote a story about beans. I wrote a story about
clay cooking and which castle, you know, that's the vessel,
the clay vessel that gave its name to the casulet.
I did a profile of the castle at chef that
I had met and whatever. The years went by and
(15:38):
I realized that this was more than an article. I
also ended up calling the castulet chef, you know, the
man who I call my casulet master, calling him one
day and saying, you know, I would like to come
and stage with you. I'd like to learn to make casulet.
And he was, you know, he's a character, and he
(16:02):
was really kind of sneering. I really, you think you
think you want to make casoleet, you know, And of
course this was in French, but that was the tone,
and I said, yes, yes, So I went there. I
spent you know, some weeks in his kitchen, and still
I couldn't shake this. So I realized that there was
(16:22):
more to it than just the dish, and that there
was something about that area of France now called Oxitanny
because the region names, you know, change as the French
president's changed. So at the time, it was called long
doc Husillon, right, and now it's all part of Oxitanny.
(16:46):
I realized there was something there that was deeper than
than what I thought, and I was able to take
a month off from my life going to a writer's
retreat and just face this. And that's when I started
writing casolea Confessions.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
You just said two words that are resonating with me,
writers retreat. I've told David, my husband David, that that's
all I want. I want to be given a month
at a writer's retreat. That's what you want, and I'm
so I admire you for doing that. Where was the
writer's retreat?
Speaker 3 (17:26):
So it's called La Mouse and it's actually in the
Montaigneo noir, the Black Mountain, very close to carcass Sun
in the Southwest. And it's not a place where you
have to you know, be chosen or there's a competition
or a lottery. You know, it's a place where you
(17:49):
go and then you take care of your own food,
which you know some people just really don't want to do.
But it's not that expensive and and it's beautiful and
there's really nothing else to do there. Then stare at
the mountain and write that's.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Just beautiful and sounds blissful. So Cassolet, let's just for
our listeners define it in the origins, which as you
dive deep into it, you also kind of dive deep
into your own familial heritage, which is interesting. Yes, So
what is the origin of castle at Well, there's.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Many stories about the origin of Casole, which actually was
one of the reasons why Michael Batterbury was interested in
doing a story on the history of Cassoulet. The one
legend that seems to you know, be told over and
over again places the origin of Cassulet at the time
(18:52):
of the One Hundred Years' War, so we're talking the
thirteen hundreds in France, and the the legend or the
tale tells the story of the town of Castelnodari being
besieged by the English, you know, because the English and
the French spent you know, centuries fighting each other, and
(19:17):
there was almost nothing left to eat in the town,
and the mayor of the town announced that anybody who
had a little bit of food left in the cupboards
should bring it to the time square and they would
take a big cast role, put everything in there and
then have the last meal before they would go and
(19:39):
you know, die in the last battle. Well, of course,
this being France, the story says that after this meal,
which I guess was the way castle was invented, with beans,
little pieces of meats that people had saved, sausages, a
few vegetable fresh herbs. Hopefully, after this this massive meal,
(20:06):
the French soldiers were so revived that they actually were
able to push the English back, and it says the
legend all the way back to the channel. So that's
the most famous legend.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I thought it was interesting. I mean, it's it sounds
like an easy dish, but it takes like three days
to me, you know, if done right. And we'll talk
about that. But every village you talked about Castin, which
is the ground zero for the dish, but apparently there's
different renditions of it, and it's town to lose. Carcassont
(20:45):
Castleinalder all have their versions on which you learned, and
everybody's very passionate about it. And I learned that there's
a society, the Academy Universal do castle at Yeah, so
you're very rigid, you know how you follow these rules
of Cassoulet.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Yes, actually there's more than one society believe it or not.
And of course they don't get along and they don't
believe in the same recipes at all. But that's you know,
that's France and and that's passion. But my casule master
co founded the Universal Academy of and and they take
(21:26):
what they do very seriously. You know, they they defend
when when you talk about this with with these people,
and they there's chefs, restaurantures, vintners and and also just
people who love to eat you know what we used
to call foodies, right, food lovers in this society. But
(21:49):
what they're doing really is defending their tear war. This
is what this is about. It's based on a dish,
but it's really about the land.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
That's a good point and so passionate and so French.
But it's also that way in Naples when you go
to do the pizza and the rossotto. And something that
I truly love in Europe is this defense of arroois.
You see it quite a bit in the Deep South
with barbecue. Yes, I've noticed in biscuits, but it's it
(22:21):
pulls you in in in France, you become obsessed with
trying you know, different of the you know, one version
like I did that with peyya. I couldn't get a
pay ya. So I have a question for you. So
in the book, I learned and uh that the cassou
is at the cassoula castoule the specific dish. What makes
(22:41):
that specific? Why that dish? Because there was a funny
scene where your master, Eric Garcia takes you to a
pottery place and he says they're not making the correct
pots anymore, and it became a hole to do a
brew haha.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Right exactly. I mean I I thought he might get killed.
It was pretty uh, it was pretty terrifying. So the
dish is actually called castle c A S s O
l l E. Castle, and it it's made with clay.
(23:16):
But there are several uh shapes.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
If you will.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Now. The one that Eric Garcia and of course I
believe in is the row Tommed Castle. And I've actually
worked with a pottery studio in Minnesota called Clay Coyote
and they've created the perfect castle sort of to go
with my recipes and my book. But they also a
(23:47):
few I think maybe twenty years ago, had created a
completely different one to go with Paula Wolfert's book. I
don't remember exactly the year her book came out, but
she wrote this book called the Cuisine of Southwest France.
Definitely book right, exactly, And on the cover of that
(24:10):
book is a yellow clay pot, also made by clay coyote.
But it's conical. Now, some people swear by the conical
shape because it creates a wider area for the crust.
And if you've had castulet, you know that the crust
(24:31):
is where the magic happens, because nobody really understands why
the crust happens, and certainly it shouldn't happen through breadcrumbs
or god forbid, cheese. Right, I personally feel that the
conical castle is not great because all the stock goes
(24:51):
in the bottom, you know. But we could debate this
for an hour, and sure how I think I think
it has been and I learned a lot.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I don't think I've ever had an authentic castle at
because I don't. I remember, you know, when I write
about Peia, you know it's all about the soca ro
hud at the bottom of the crust. You know, at
the bottom of this is crust at the top. Because
you talk about making it, and there are recipes, different
renditions and recipes in the back of a castle like confession.
You talked about the crust, and I'm like going, I
don't know if I've ever ran a real castle lit
(25:21):
of course, sadly and middley, I don't eat pork and
beef anymore, but somebody made me a lamps your one
and it was divine, even though that's not, of course
the French real way, but the French real way it
takes like three days. You've got to start with this
like stock, which is like so important, and that's like
one day right there, right, yes, But I will.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Say that I was in Nashville, Tennessee last week speaking
to Jewish congregation, and we've devised my recipe, tester, and
I devised a recipe for them without pork. So they
used I know this is not going to help you much,
but we used veal shank, and we also used you know, brisket.
(26:08):
But you can make cassulet with chicken and maybe maybe
you can just put one piece of veal shank. You know,
it's a lot of the cassulet magic happens because of
the collagen, right that's in the bones, and and that's
really the trick.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
So you mentioned the Jewish group. And you're talk in
the book about cholan is it cholant the dish which
is is that a Ashkanazi dish or a Sephardic dish?
Speaker 3 (26:39):
It's an Ahnazi dish, yes, So you talk about that.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
So it's somewhat similar to a bit different, but also
that simmering bits and pieces, you know, dish in one
pot dish and and it's you know, a dish that
you can make and then on the day you can't eat,
you can eat it. And and this is a classic
case of a dish with cassule of a dish. It
(27:03):
takes a long time, but it nourishes you and it's
good for you know, it's peasant food basically to keep
people nourished. And also if you're worshiping on a Sunday
or not able to cook on a specific day, the
food is there for you, right.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Yes, yes, absolutely. And you know also there's an author
we all I think revert, Joan Nathan writes about, you know,
Jewish cooking, and I love her book called Kish Kugel's
and couscous My Search for Jewish Cooking in France. And
(27:42):
and Joan is telling us in there, and she's not
the only food writer who's made this assumption that Joland
is actually the ancestor of Cassola.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Now, is there any Sephardic or African influence on this dish,
because we were talking about South with fran we're talking
about an area of that his experienced immigration. Talk to
me about that.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Yes, so, so I know that there's a similar dish
called the fina, the fina that Sephardic Jews also prepare
with beans and and other meats. But in fact, there
are many, many different kinds of bean stews in so
(28:30):
many cultures. One of them that I think we've probably
all tasted is fijuada right in Brazil. Fija is the
Brazilian national dish, and what is it. It's a bean stew.
There's things like that in Italy. There's also a bean
(28:52):
stew in Persian food. And actually I was I was
playing with the idea of writing a story about the
different bean stews, you know, in different cultures.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
I think that would be fascinating. It's that way with
rice as well. I mean rice and bean to be
the universal staples in the potatoes throughout the world as
you travel, and I find that connection is so interesting.
I know J. J. Johnson has a whole thing with rice.
It's really fascinating. So I have another castle at question.
(29:28):
Red is very symbolic. And you know, if you go
onto the website for the academy, you see everybody wearing
a very they all look like popes.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
They look like popes. I thought that when I first
saw them parading in that dining room the first time
I had castlet, I thought they looked like umba lumpas.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
But yeah, that'so.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
But yeah, it's I mean, it's still a very vivid
society and in the world of wine, and you know
that there's many different societies like that that are wine
related in France.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
At the Kompa non Boglat, I mean, I was at
the annual Kopon nondu Beaujelat event around Nouveaux where we
drink cruise of course, because it's all about glue Beaujeulay
and you have their special outfits and the ceremonies there.
I was inducted. I'm an official member. Yes, I did
the gluey gluey gluey gluey drink thing. It was kind
of fun, but it and and it's also that way
(30:30):
in Spain. You've probably covered a lot about Basque region,
and they have those dining societies there and everybody wears
outfits and on and on and on. It's again, it's
it's incredible tradition and it's nice to see these dishes preserved.
It's sad when they're bastardized, but it's nice to have
(30:50):
the ability to go to the region to experience them
and in your travels. I did notice on the academy
site that they had chief pinpointed Castulea ambassadors around the world.
I saw some in Canada and I saw some in Asia,
so that you can get the dish elsewhere, but they
have to be like certified to be an official.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Exactly, yeah, you can. You can get it in Japan,
and yes, certainly there's a number of people who, you know,
in restaurants tried to create this dish, but it's really
more of the home cooked dish. And it's interesting. When
I was looking for a publisher, I tried to convince
(31:35):
people that there were, you know, food lovers around the
world who had tried castule At and always you know,
looked back fondly to that experience and maybe made castulet
At home and and all of that. They thought I
was crazy, and you know what, I turned out to
be right. In fact, after the book came out, I
(31:59):
have you know, I started getting emails from people saying, oh,
you know, I read your book and I had casule
in this cafe you know in Canada, or you know
there was this French chef in Wisconsin and he made
cassule on Thursdays. I mean, it's amazing. There's all these stories,
(32:19):
and you know, I was just interviewed by Joe donnahu
up in Albany in a local NPR station, and who knew.
He started the interview by saying, you know, my mother
used to make cassule at home. I said, you're kidding.
She wasn't French. She she was just a great cook.
(32:41):
And of course Julia Child has six pages on cassoulet
in Master the.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Art, of course, you know, but of course, and she
probably tested it for years and years and years and
years and years. Right. Yes, you know it is a
dish that, like several dishes like bergnawn like hey, yeah,
that you become obsessed with because it is a it's
also meditative. I mean, you are properly making it over
(33:09):
a period of time and there's a procedure you follow,
so it's a very meditative type of cooking as well.
You've got it. You know, the challenges often finding the
right bits and pieces of meats, but as you said,
you can adapt if you need to, because sometimes you must.
Depends on how authentic you want to be. Now, I'm
(33:31):
you know you talk about and it's very clear in
this book that this is the dish that saved your soul.
Talk to me about that.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Well, I knew that there was more to it than
just something I put in my mouth, obviously, So I
took this time off and I went to this writer's retreat,
and the key to the story came to me, I think,
after honestly a few days of just staring at, you know,
(34:05):
out the window, and the key is actually I'm just
have the book right here, but the key was, it's
actually the first sentence of the first chapter. We never
ate Cassule at Beauchamp, my Swiss childhood home above Lake Geneva.
(34:26):
We didn't eat lentils either, or any other mundane lagoon
for that matter. And so in fact, it sort of
forced me to realize that I had to go deep
into the way I was brought up, what happened at
this dining room table, what happened between my parents, what
(34:47):
happened with my sisters? And yes, I mean it was
a story that I needed to.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Tell so much like other foods that evoke memories, whether
it's pushed to the madelins or dishes that take you
back in time. And in your case, it was not
a childhood dish, which I thought was really interesting because
often with these powerful memories, it starts with a dish.
You know, for me, it's a version of pow LoVa,
(35:14):
which my grandmother made, and my mother maid and and
and pavlova evokes a memory of many a beautiful memory.
But you know it's I grew up eating it. You
did grow up eating casselet, and you're very clear about that,
And yet it evoked a powerful memory. You learned that
your parents had an interesting marriage. It was a convenient marriage,
as we'll say euphemistically. Your sisters had their issues and
(35:38):
you had your sister. You had to deal with that
over time and come to some terms of endearment, as
they say, right.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Yes, yes, absolutely, and and that you're absolutely correct. Usually
these stories transport I'm thinking of you know, ratatui. For example,
you have the uh, the critic who's transported back in
the you know, kitchen of his mother because she made ratatui.
But in my case, it didn't make any sense. Uh.
(36:11):
And that's why it took me so long to realize
that there was a reasons why, you know, a reason
why cassulet tasted like home.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
So interesting that cassule tasted like home, but again it
was a dish that was less familiar, but it tasted
like home. Do you it brought you comfort? I guess
I'm curious. You also talk about how it brought you
closer to faith? How how does this dish interweave with
your and writing this book and faith?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Well, you know, I'm Jewish and and my parents were
actually the co founders of a the first Reformed congregation
in Switzerland, so they were not necessarily observant. But this happened.
And it's sort of interesting story because they with a
(37:03):
group of friends, decided in the sixties to take a
road trip from New York to San Francisco. And so
they bought a used car. I mean, it's crazy story.
And they bought the used car in New York. Now
they were all living in Europe, right, and they crossed
(37:24):
the United States and they sold it when they arrived
to San Francisco. But one of their stop was Dallas,
and they found themselves in Dallas on a Friday night,
and I guess somebody said, well, maybe there's a synagogue
we can go to. And I think it was more
about curiosity than you know, feeling religious really, but they
(37:49):
ended up at this congregation, the Reform congregation, where for
the first time in their lives, they heard the service
in English. They understood everything that was being said. Men
and women were sitting together, and when the service was over,
the rabbi came to them and was thrilled to have
(38:11):
them join his family for Shabbad dinner. And basically, my
parents and their friends came back to Geneva thinking we
need to create something like that, and they did, and
the congregation is still going and the first Friday night
service happened in our living room in the big house.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Wow, that's such an interesting connection back to religion. I
grew up in a southern Jewish means we have Christmas
trees up here around My father was My father was
clearly much more religious than my mother, but having dealt
more recently with my mother's death and how the Jewish
(38:57):
community has rallied behind me. It has created a connection
that I did not have in the past. Interestingly enough, yes,
so I thought that was also very interesting. What else
did you learn as you wrote? What other revelations did
you uncover that you were like, wow, you.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Know, I'll tell you one more thing about about feeling Jewish.
You know, my mother grew up in Paris. She was
born in nineteen twenty five, and she and her parents
were very secular. They really didn't care that they were Jewish.
They didn't follow anything. They celebrated Christmas and painted eggs,
(39:44):
you know, at Easter, and then you know, July sixteen,
nineteen forty two, there was a knock on the door
of their apartment and it was the French police, you know,
coming from my mother and her mother to take them away,
and it was a miracle that they escaped. So I
grew up with this story and also with what my
(40:08):
mother always said, which is, whether you feel Jewish or not,
you're going to be on the list when they come.
And so you might as well know, you know, what
being Jewish is all about, and then you can decide
whether to observe or not. But it was the reason why,
you know, I wanted both my children to be bar
(40:30):
mitzvah because it is part of our identity and we
might as well learn about it.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
I think that's so interesting. And it has taken me
a long time, Sylvie, to get to that point, because
I denied for so long just to kind of assimilate
and be, you know, a part of every world. Yes,
but it does come back. The identity does come back.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
I mean, I understand it. Stand you can go both ways.
And I think we we cope with with our identities,
you know, the way we can. Sometimes we have to
face what is there, and sometimes we want to bury.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
It, exactly. And I think a lot depends on what's
going on in your life and how you evolve in
your life. Yes, and and you know, obviously age and
trauma and changes can change everything. As I watched my husband,
uh we dug out manuas trying to sell things and
(41:38):
we found four manuras. And I watched my husband every
night faithfully he's Episcopalian, and he faithfully lit the tonica
candles as a nod to the tradition in my home
while my mother lay dying in the other room. It
was very powerful visual and he it for him. It
became very peaceful to do that is very important for
(42:00):
him to do it every night. And I was amazed
by it, to be honest, because it had not been
done in so long in her house. Really really, and
what other revelations. And in the book, your father passes
away from cancer, as did mine, and that was very difficult.
(42:21):
You were able to see him. You were pregnant, so
you were not able to go to the funeral though, right.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
So I saw him in July, and he died at
the end of September, and it was three weeks away
from the birth of my son. So I was in
New York when he died. And yeah, I couldn't go
to the funeral. And I have very contradictory feelings about that.
(42:47):
I think on one hand, I was relieved, to tell
you the truth, I was relieved not to have to
go through that. On the other hand, it was horrendous
not to be able to be there with him in
the last few days.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
I think so many people experienced that during COVID.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
Yes exactly. And I gave my son as his second name.
I gave him my father's name. Yep.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
Now you I love the journey you went. You did
the road trip with your children. I learned that the ends.
I learned all about the N sevens you wrote. As
I was reading, I was like, we were just on
it because you were recounting stopping and getting the Montelamar sweets.
I was at those gas stations, like there was one
in there. You talk about this great gas station, your
(43:36):
tan armoroitage, where we were on our very recent road
trip through twitter Fronts, and I was like, damn, I
wish we were at that gas station because the gas
stations have some pretty good food. Because as we traveled
off and we didn't have time to have leisurely meals
because we were racing from winery to wineries, that we
would go to the gas stations and have these wonderful sandwiches.
(43:56):
We went to the Valerona shop. It was closed the
day we were there, but I followed you around and
I said today that we've got to do this again,
more leisurely. But I didn't know that they all all
these national roads started Notre Dame. Is it all of
them or just that one?
Speaker 3 (44:11):
Yes, all the national roads start at Notre Dame and
this one the National seven National set, uh, you know,
goes all the way down to Monton after Nie near Monaco,
And yes, I love taking that trip. I wrote the
story for sever magazine. It was a huge story with
(44:33):
amazing photography from London Norman and and actually I still
have the box of all of these the research for
that trip, because I'm thinking, maybe that's another book. It's
not the book I'm working on right now, but maybe
it's a future book.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
What is the book you're working on now?
Speaker 3 (44:53):
So I'm actually working on a historical novel that has
nothing to do with food, but it's based around the
life of my mother's older brother, who was born in
South Paulo in nineteen eighteen and died in the mountains
of France in nineteen forty four at age twenty six.
(45:14):
My mother's life is very much sort of cut in two,
you know, before the knock on the door and after.
But the death of her older brother. He was her
half brother. But the death of her brother was a
wound that she you know, to this day. I mean,
(45:34):
she never overcame that. And that's the photo that she
has on her nightstand, you know, this black and white
shot of him in his soldier's uniform. And so we
grew up, you know, my sisters and I with this
image of this perfect, ideal young man. And when I
(45:58):
decided to write about him, I realized I had to
go fiction because we really didn't know who he was.
She had kind of an idealistic little girl feeling about
this older brother. He was seven years older than her.
But so, yeah, it's it's a great project.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
It should be, and it'll probably bring out a lot
of other emotions as well. The more you write about family,
the more you uncover things along the way and that
are good not good. And you're I read in your
bio this is the uncle that died in the French
Resistance and you went to visit this area.
Speaker 3 (46:41):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
Then you won an award from the Journalism Award for writing.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
In fact, it was that piece. You're right, It was
a travel piece that I started with, a travel piece
about the Vercore Mountains of France, because a lot of
travelers don't know this area. It's above Grenoble, you know,
and even when people drive from Paris to Provence, you know,
(47:12):
they go through this area, but they don't stop. And
then there's this sort of huge rocky monster looking like
a ship. It's a it's a mountain range that's pretty austere,
and that's it was a bastion of the French resistance
and and actually has an amazing history because it was
(47:36):
a it was an area that you know, the goal
had sort of hoped could serve as a landing post
for the Allies before D Day, and then you know,
the resistance people were betrayed and my uncle worked on
(48:01):
this secret airport in the mountains, but the planes that
finally landed there were German planes.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
I've been very fascinated about this Sestery ever since I
found My father was also a wine educator, among many things,
and I found the book Wine in War, which is
a definitive book about how the Germans just basically obliterated
many wine, particularly Champagne and of sauce and Bordeaux, and
it was a fascinating book and I was inspired to
(48:33):
pick it off the shelf after it's sitting there for
many years. After going to the Laire and going to
the Coule des Serent and seeing a marker in the
middle of a vineyard field, the field with a store
of David on it, and I sort of thinking about
that was it a grave? What was it? And then
seeing bullet holes in different wineries. So it's fascinating. It
(48:58):
is to go back, It really really is, and an
interesting departure to sow your incredible breadth and depth of writing,
which is I think really important. You never should. I'm
a big believer in journalism. You can specialize in one thing,
but you should also have other interests so that you're
not one dimensional and your income is at one dimensional.
And you know, kudos to you for being successfully able
(49:19):
to have a great career. I do want to also
point out in a little bit of time you left
up you also co authored daniel Blues definitive book, Danielle
My French Cuisine, Childhood in Geneva. Yes, I love him
deeply and I'm getting ready to send him a photo.
My mother adored him and one of the photos on
(49:40):
her bureau was her she and Danielle.
Speaker 3 (49:44):
Oh so sweet one day and.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
It's there's yeah, it's it's an emotional photo for many reasons.
The interweaving of and again, this is really a story,
Cassille confessions. It's about a dish, but it's about life
and about the for something and the discovery of what's
in your soul. And that's why I think, because it
(50:07):
says food, France, family and the Stew that Saved my soul.
It sang to me because so much of food and
wine and whatever evolves so many memories, whether it's around
the table or a moment of time, a point of
happiness or sadness. And it inspired me, frankly Sylvia, to
(50:32):
get on the horn and start writing because so many things,
particularly for me in this past year, in the past
three years as I have lived on the road, certain
food moments during the travels and certainly wine have really
hit certain emotional notes in my own soul. So it's
a terrific book. We're winning on. I excited to see
(50:55):
you've got another book coming out. But for our listeners again,
Sylvie has written Cassolet Confessions, Food, France, Family and the
Stew that Saved My Soul. There are some very good
recipes in the back as well, how to make cassulelet
if you want to taken on at home, including some
that are shorter than longer. Of course, the academy is
probably going no one, dude, no, no, no.
Speaker 5 (51:17):
Exactly, but it's always you can pursue perfection in the
kitchen kitchen, but you can also en in life, but
you can also accept imperfection, embrace it and say I
own it this way.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
Right absolutely. And we have a recipe that we call
Gateway Cassoulet that takes you know, one day and with
with you know, wonderful store bought stock and confie, you
know from d'Artagnan, and you know, things that make life easier.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
That was like when I was little and I'd make
minute rise resato asp of the Italians. But you know,
I did it my way with Campbell's cream tomatoes cream
and mushroom soup. That was my poor girl's ristoto as
I tried to think about being in Italy versus being
in Atlanta. So you do what you can. But the
key is get in the kitchen and enjoy food and
(52:12):
enjoy it as you eat it. I don't believe in deprivation.
I believe in dedication to good food and enjoying it
and and hopefully everybody will have positive food memories as
they savor your book and their next meal.
Speaker 3 (52:27):
Right, yeah, exactly. I love that.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
Well, thank you for joining us. I really appreciate it.
And best of luck with everything else you do.
Speaker 3 (52:35):
Thank you so much. Thank you, Melanie, thank.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
You, and for all of you listening. I hope you're
inspired to get cooking and save your life and all
it brings.
Speaker 4 (52:47):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (53:01):
They had usually ta
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(00:21):
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Speaker 2 (00:44):
Award winning food and travel writer Sylvia b. Gar was
born in Geneva, Switzerland, and lives in New York City.
She's an accomplished writer whose writing has appeared in The
New York Times, Washington Posts, Food and Winesworpes dot Com,
bon Et Petite, and Many men or. She also writes
in French in La Figero, Eastuas magazine, Le Tomp and
French Mourning dot com. I've known Sylvia for a very
(01:09):
long time and admired her work. We've passed our paths
across several times in New York, and I was delighted
to see that she'd written a book with a very
interesting title, Casilea Confessions, and I was excited and said,
I must have this book. And as I read it,
I learned it's not just about the French Dish castile As,
(01:31):
but an incredible memoir that dives into her family and
her life growing up in Geneva and traveling the world
and you know, moving to New York and her own
family and dealing with the death of a father and
her sisters. There was so much there and I had
such a powerful connection with it as I was dealing
with my own family affairs at the time. So I
(01:55):
invited her on. We're gonna have a wonderful show talking
about life, love of food, and travel and castle at
So Sylvie, welcome.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Thank you, Thank you so much for having me on.
It is very exciting and I feel that connection with you.
I feel that the family issues are sort of universal.
We all have to go through that exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Well, you know the underlying tagline of the book, It's
called castile A Confessions, Food, France, family, and the stew
that saved my soul. That is what really hit me
because for me right now, writing about wine is kind
of saving my own soul as I grieve over the
loss of my mother. I do want to point out
(02:40):
that the publishers Hearty Grant Books, I think they do
a very good job. Now it's interesting. The cover of
this book has, of course this famous dish castle at
which we'll dive into. But at the very top is
a beautiful large mansion, which is where you grew up
in Geneva. So let's talk about that first, where you
grew up and Belchamp.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yes, so I grew up in the house that's on
the cover. And I do want to salute the designer
of the cover, Emily O'Neill, who did an amazing job
sort of taking the ingredients of the book, if I
may say so, and sort of creating a sort of
a you know, I don't know, some kind of a
(03:24):
of a design there that really touches people. But yes,
this house on the on Lake Geneva, thirty six rooms.
I say, it's sort of a mini Downton Abbey. It
was built in nineteen and sorry in seventeen thirty and
it's an amazing property. And my mom, bless her heart,
(03:45):
at ninety seven years old, is still living there in
this house.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
You said in the book you write your friends were
like you live in this house, and you had it
was downtown Abbey. You had servants, you had you know,
the servant area in the living area for your family,
and your your parents were quite elegant. Your father were
silk pajamas. He loved to sail. He had a very
beautiful Mediterranean complexion. And you had siblings. Talk to me
(04:13):
about your family. All families are complicated. You'res also, let's
start with your dad.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Okay, Well, maybe before we speak about him, perhaps I
can sort of explain that the beginning of my life
and my childhood, I didn't think there was anything special
about the way that I was living, because you know,
that's where I was born, that's your house, that was
the house that was home La Maison, right, And and
(04:44):
the fact that there was this family living next to
us is actually something that I'm still grappling with, and
particularly because they there was a couple, and they had
a son and a daughter, and the son was my age,
and he and I used to play together when when
(05:07):
we were you know, six and seven and ten. They
stayed with us a long time, and what's really interesting
is we would, you know, play together in the park.
It was a pretty large garden and then when it
was time for dinner, we would both you know, run
towards the house and race. But of course he went
(05:27):
towards the kitchen door and I went towards the you know,
the front door. And believe it or not, we actually
have reconnected he and I through Facebook. I found I
found him, and I went to Spain. I spent a
few days with him, and I was actually writing a
(05:49):
story about Paeya. And he lives in you know, near Valencia,
which is the birthplace of Paea, and and it was
amazing sort of comparing our childhood memories. So yeah, I
just thought it would be interesting to talk about this
a bit.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
It's you know, I love childhood innocence. Your friends are here,
you know, I used to. We had a woman who
cleaned our house and I played with her child all
the time. It was just perfectly normal. You play with
everybody and you don't think about the neighborhood they live in,
the neighborhood you live in, or whatever, and it's just
a wonderful time with.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Innocence exactly exactly. But so the family, I mean, I
think that I start the book with the sea at
the table, because you know, I'm a food and travel writer.
And it feels as though, you know, so much happens
right at the family table. I think we can all
(06:45):
relate to that. And so at the table, my father
is facing the lake, facing the park, and my mother's
next to him, and my three older sisters and I
are you know, around there, and of course I'm the
youngest by eight years, which is a lot. I believed
(07:07):
for decades. I believed what my mother said, which was that,
you know, they had ordered a little dessert as how
she you know, said it. And then as she aged,
you know, her social veneer sort of cracked a bit,
and then one day she did say, well, you know,
when I found out I was pregnant, and I was like, wait, what,
(07:32):
you didn't plan this? Well, no, of course she didn't.
You know, she had three daughters in four and a
half years and then nothing for eight years. So this
beautiful setting, you know, dinner, family at the table was
you know, full of stories, some true and some not.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
What are some of your favorite food memories when you
were a little around that tape? What did you eat?
Speaker 3 (08:02):
So I actually loved roasted chicken, but it wasn't a
roasted chicken that my mother made because my mother didn't cook.
The cook cooked. Actually, Carmela uh in the book is
the cook. And she made this amazing tarragon roasted chicken,
which is very easy, but because of the chicken that
(08:25):
we had at the time, I mean, it was you
know absolute, I mean it was deli sieur, right, it
was delicious. It's a very simple recipe, and I've tried
to make it many times, but you know, we can
never go back, right, and the kind of chicken that
we get today, even though I try, I get the
(08:46):
free range, I get the you know, D'artagnan's green circle,
you know, kind of rolls royce of the chicken. But
these these memories of food. So there's that, there's chocolate moose.
We made a really great chocolate moose. And then also
there's the way that my mother ate, as opposed to
(09:09):
the way we ate. But we can maybe get into
that a little later. She ate more delicately, right she Yeah,
my mother was anorexic, and she ate basically steamed vegetables,
you know, little pieces of meat here and there, a
(09:31):
lot of non fat vegetable broth that she actually ingested.
I found out later at the beginning of the meal
to curb her appetite.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
My mother was had an eating disorder at the end
of her life, so I can totally identify with that,
the little pieces, the small pieces, the avoidance of anything
that looked like a potato. I happened a lot of potatoes.
So here's the big question. When was the first time
you had castle let, Sylvie.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
So I had castoulet in the way that one is
supposed to have cassoulet, which is in France, in the
south of France, with ingredients from the land, in two
thousand and eight, which is quite late. But just because
we didn't eat like that, those those regional dishes and
(10:19):
especially this like one pot dish that you put in
the middle of the table and then you know, every
serve family style. This is not how I grew up, right,
We had a butler. The butler served us, served me,
you know, at age eight, and he did not serve
me you know, beans and pork. So yeah, it was
(10:41):
in two thousand and eight when I took this trip
that I thought would be a simple assignment. I was
working as a food and travel writer than in New
York City, and I was sent there by a wonderful
magazine that no longer exists.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Called Food Arts the Best.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
I'm sure you remember it.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Oh, yes, Michael Batterbury, the best, the best exactly.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
So Michael Batterbury was the first person to believe in
my writing and to say, you know, go to France
and come back, bring me, you know, a story on
the history of Cassoulet. And so that sounded amazing. French
is my first language. It was easy to get there,
to sort of speak to people, you know, in French
(11:30):
and get the stories. I thought it'd be a quick
trip story. I might even start in the plane on
the way back and then I move on. Well, in fact,
this trip and I you know, I keep saying that,
but it's true, this trip changed my life.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
So it's interesting. First of all, you know, kudos to
Michael and Arian Badbury for you know, they what I
love about them. And fortunately Michael's left this quite a
long time ago. They started Food in my magazine. They
were very proud of that, and then they started, you know,
amazing journalists careers, and then Food Arts really was a
(12:07):
definitive magazine and I was crushed when it was shuttered.
Was I yeah, Well, I'm sure you or you wrote
for them, I mean, first of all, that's it's very
hard to get outlets to rifle as it is. And
then for one of that level of quality that let
you do the kind of work that you were able
to do is rare, particularly these days. It's interesting because
(12:33):
pass Away is basically a peasant dish, and you grew
up in a wealthy environment. So it's an interesting juxtaposition
which kind of is woven throughout your book. Yes, absolutely,
and you this was a process because you wrote about
(12:55):
in twenty sixties. So just to enlighten listeners, you've quite
a bit of writing that is culinary and travel, and
you wrote an article that won a Society of American
Travel Writers Best Culinary Travel book, French Castle at and
Obsession Boils Over. Oh that was for the Washington Post, right,
(13:17):
so that won an award. So you've been you know,
it's now twenty twenty three, you have a book coming
out it so this has been a kind of is
it a lifelong session or is it one of Because
you love doing deep dives into dishes, I mean you
write about you just said you did an intensive article
on Paia as did I. I love diving into the
(13:39):
story behind one dish. I've done that many times in
my own writing. Is that something that you enjoy doing.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Yes, yes, I absolutely love that. And I love learning
about different cultures as well, not just French cuisine. I
did a story on cuisine of Saint Lucia with a
chef who is from Saint Lucia in the Caribbean. I
(14:05):
also write about things that are not food related. I
did a story on the work of a poet and politician,
Ame Cesre, who was, you know, the mayor of the
capital of Martinique. And I did a whole travel story,
you know, sort of guided by his poems on the
(14:28):
occasion of his hundred earth birthday. But what happened with
cassu Let has not happened with anything else. I have
to tell you. I took this trip in two thousand
and eight, and I became obsessed with this dish, and
I came back. I wrote the story for Food Arts.
It was nicely received, and then you know, I did
(14:51):
other things. I did stories on chefs in Lyon and Alzas,
and I went to Canada and the gas pep Peninsula
and all of these other stories. But this Casulet thing
kept gnawing at me, and so I tried to milk
(15:12):
it for you know, for everything that I could. I
wrote a story about beans. I wrote a story about
clay cooking and which castle, you know, that's the vessel,
the clay vessel that gave its name to the casulet.
I did a profile of the castle at chef that
I had met and whatever. The years went by and
(15:38):
I realized that this was more than an article. I
also ended up calling the castulet chef, you know, the
man who I call my casulet master, calling him one
day and saying, you know, I would like to come
and stage with you. I'd like to learn to make casulet.
And he was, you know, he's a character, and he
(16:02):
was really kind of sneering. I really, you think you
think you want to make casoleet, you know, And of
course this was in French, but that was the tone,
and I said, yes, yes, So I went there. I
spent you know, some weeks in his kitchen, and still
I couldn't shake this. So I realized that there was
(16:22):
more to it than just the dish, and that there
was something about that area of France now called Oxitanny
because the region names, you know, change as the French
president's changed. So at the time, it was called long
doc Husillon, right, and now it's all part of Oxitanny.
(16:46):
I realized there was something there that was deeper than
than what I thought, and I was able to take
a month off from my life going to a writer's
retreat and just face this. And that's when I started
writing casolea Confessions.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
You just said two words that are resonating with me,
writers retreat. I've told David, my husband David, that that's
all I want. I want to be given a month
at a writer's retreat. That's what you want, and I'm
so I admire you for doing that. Where was the
writer's retreat?
Speaker 3 (17:26):
So it's called La Mouse and it's actually in the
Montaigneo noir, the Black Mountain, very close to carcass Sun
in the Southwest. And it's not a place where you
have to you know, be chosen or there's a competition
or a lottery. You know, it's a place where you
(17:49):
go and then you take care of your own food,
which you know some people just really don't want to do.
But it's not that expensive and and it's beautiful and
there's really nothing else to do there. Then stare at
the mountain and write that's.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Just beautiful and sounds blissful. So Cassolet, let's just for
our listeners define it in the origins, which as you
dive deep into it, you also kind of dive deep
into your own familial heritage, which is interesting. Yes, So
what is the origin of castle at Well, there's.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Many stories about the origin of Casole, which actually was
one of the reasons why Michael Batterbury was interested in
doing a story on the history of Cassoulet. The one
legend that seems to you know, be told over and
over again places the origin of Cassulet at the time
(18:52):
of the One Hundred Years' War, so we're talking the
thirteen hundreds in France, and the the legend or the
tale tells the story of the town of Castelnodari being
besieged by the English, you know, because the English and
the French spent you know, centuries fighting each other, and
(19:17):
there was almost nothing left to eat in the town,
and the mayor of the town announced that anybody who
had a little bit of food left in the cupboards
should bring it to the time square and they would
take a big cast role, put everything in there and
then have the last meal before they would go and
(19:39):
you know, die in the last battle. Well, of course,
this being France, the story says that after this meal,
which I guess was the way castle was invented, with beans,
little pieces of meats that people had saved, sausages, a
few vegetable fresh herbs. Hopefully, after this this massive meal,
(20:06):
the French soldiers were so revived that they actually were
able to push the English back, and it says the
legend all the way back to the channel. So that's
the most famous legend.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I thought it was interesting. I mean, it's it sounds
like an easy dish, but it takes like three days
to me, you know, if done right. And we'll talk
about that. But every village you talked about Castin, which
is the ground zero for the dish, but apparently there's
different renditions of it, and it's town to lose. Carcassont
(20:45):
Castleinalder all have their versions on which you learned, and
everybody's very passionate about it. And I learned that there's
a society, the Academy Universal do castle at Yeah, so
you're very rigid, you know how you follow these rules
of Cassoulet.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Yes, actually there's more than one society believe it or not.
And of course they don't get along and they don't
believe in the same recipes at all. But that's you know,
that's France and and that's passion. But my casule master
co founded the Universal Academy of and and they take
(21:26):
what they do very seriously. You know, they they defend
when when you talk about this with with these people,
and they there's chefs, restaurantures, vintners and and also just
people who love to eat you know what we used
to call foodies, right, food lovers in this society. But
(21:49):
what they're doing really is defending their tear war. This
is what this is about. It's based on a dish,
but it's really about the land.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
That's a good point and so passionate and so French.
But it's also that way in Naples when you go
to do the pizza and the rossotto. And something that
I truly love in Europe is this defense of arroois.
You see it quite a bit in the Deep South
with barbecue. Yes, I've noticed in biscuits, but it's it
(22:21):
pulls you in in in France, you become obsessed with
trying you know, different of the you know, one version
like I did that with peyya. I couldn't get a
pay ya. So I have a question for you. So
in the book, I learned and uh that the cassou
is at the cassoula castoule the specific dish. What makes
(22:41):
that specific? Why that dish? Because there was a funny
scene where your master, Eric Garcia takes you to a
pottery place and he says they're not making the correct
pots anymore, and it became a hole to do a
brew haha.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Right exactly. I mean I I thought he might get killed.
It was pretty uh, it was pretty terrifying. So the
dish is actually called castle c A S s O
l l E. Castle, and it it's made with clay.
(23:16):
But there are several uh shapes.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
If you will.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Now. The one that Eric Garcia and of course I
believe in is the row Tommed Castle. And I've actually
worked with a pottery studio in Minnesota called Clay Coyote
and they've created the perfect castle sort of to go
with my recipes and my book. But they also a
(23:47):
few I think maybe twenty years ago, had created a
completely different one to go with Paula Wolfert's book. I
don't remember exactly the year her book came out, but
she wrote this book called the Cuisine of Southwest France.
Definitely book right, exactly, And on the cover of that
(24:10):
book is a yellow clay pot, also made by clay coyote.
But it's conical. Now, some people swear by the conical
shape because it creates a wider area for the crust.
And if you've had castulet, you know that the crust
(24:31):
is where the magic happens, because nobody really understands why
the crust happens, and certainly it shouldn't happen through breadcrumbs
or god forbid, cheese. Right, I personally feel that the
conical castle is not great because all the stock goes
(24:51):
in the bottom, you know. But we could debate this
for an hour, and sure how I think I think
it has been and I learned a lot.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I don't think I've ever had an authentic castle at
because I don't. I remember, you know, when I write
about Peia, you know it's all about the soca ro
hud at the bottom of the crust. You know, at
the bottom of this is crust at the top. Because
you talk about making it, and there are recipes, different
renditions and recipes in the back of a castle like confession.
You talked about the crust, and I'm like going, I
don't know if I've ever ran a real castle lit
(25:21):
of course, sadly and middley, I don't eat pork and
beef anymore, but somebody made me a lamps your one
and it was divine, even though that's not, of course
the French real way, but the French real way it
takes like three days. You've got to start with this
like stock, which is like so important, and that's like
one day right there, right, yes, But I will.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Say that I was in Nashville, Tennessee last week speaking
to Jewish congregation, and we've devised my recipe, tester, and
I devised a recipe for them without pork. So they
used I know this is not going to help you much,
but we used veal shank, and we also used you know, brisket.
(26:08):
But you can make cassulet with chicken and maybe maybe
you can just put one piece of veal shank. You know,
it's a lot of the cassulet magic happens because of
the collagen, right that's in the bones, and and that's
really the trick.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
So you mentioned the Jewish group. And you're talk in
the book about cholan is it cholant the dish which
is is that a Ashkanazi dish or a Sephardic dish?
Speaker 3 (26:39):
It's an Ahnazi dish, yes, So you talk about that.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
So it's somewhat similar to a bit different, but also
that simmering bits and pieces, you know, dish in one
pot dish and and it's you know, a dish that
you can make and then on the day you can't eat,
you can eat it. And and this is a classic
case of a dish with cassule of a dish. It
(27:03):
takes a long time, but it nourishes you and it's
good for you know, it's peasant food basically to keep
people nourished. And also if you're worshiping on a Sunday
or not able to cook on a specific day, the
food is there for you, right.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Yes, yes, absolutely. And you know also there's an author
we all I think revert, Joan Nathan writes about, you know,
Jewish cooking, and I love her book called Kish Kugel's
and couscous My Search for Jewish Cooking in France. And
(27:42):
and Joan is telling us in there, and she's not
the only food writer who's made this assumption that Joland
is actually the ancestor of Cassola.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Now, is there any Sephardic or African influence on this dish,
because we were talking about South with fran we're talking
about an area of that his experienced immigration. Talk to
me about that.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Yes, so, so I know that there's a similar dish
called the fina, the fina that Sephardic Jews also prepare
with beans and and other meats. But in fact, there
are many, many different kinds of bean stews in so
(28:30):
many cultures. One of them that I think we've probably
all tasted is fijuada right in Brazil. Fija is the
Brazilian national dish, and what is it. It's a bean stew.
There's things like that in Italy. There's also a bean
(28:52):
stew in Persian food. And actually I was I was
playing with the idea of writing a story about the
different bean stews, you know, in different cultures.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
I think that would be fascinating. It's that way with
rice as well. I mean rice and bean to be
the universal staples in the potatoes throughout the world as
you travel, and I find that connection is so interesting.
I know J. J. Johnson has a whole thing with rice.
It's really fascinating. So I have another castle at question.
(29:28):
Red is very symbolic. And you know, if you go
onto the website for the academy, you see everybody wearing
a very they all look like popes.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
They look like popes. I thought that when I first
saw them parading in that dining room the first time
I had castlet, I thought they looked like umba lumpas.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
But yeah, that'so.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
But yeah, it's I mean, it's still a very vivid
society and in the world of wine, and you know
that there's many different societies like that that are wine
related in France.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
At the Kompa non Boglat, I mean, I was at
the annual Kopon nondu Beaujelat event around Nouveaux where we
drink cruise of course, because it's all about glue Beaujeulay
and you have their special outfits and the ceremonies there.
I was inducted. I'm an official member. Yes, I did
the gluey gluey gluey gluey drink thing. It was kind
of fun, but it and and it's also that way
(30:30):
in Spain. You've probably covered a lot about Basque region,
and they have those dining societies there and everybody wears
outfits and on and on and on. It's again, it's
it's incredible tradition and it's nice to see these dishes preserved.
It's sad when they're bastardized, but it's nice to have
(30:50):
the ability to go to the region to experience them
and in your travels. I did notice on the academy
site that they had chief pinpointed Castulea ambassadors around the world.
I saw some in Canada and I saw some in Asia,
so that you can get the dish elsewhere, but they
have to be like certified to be an official.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Exactly, yeah, you can. You can get it in Japan,
and yes, certainly there's a number of people who, you know,
in restaurants tried to create this dish, but it's really
more of the home cooked dish. And it's interesting. When
I was looking for a publisher, I tried to convince
(31:35):
people that there were, you know, food lovers around the
world who had tried castule At and always you know,
looked back fondly to that experience and maybe made castulet
At home and and all of that. They thought I
was crazy, and you know what, I turned out to
be right. In fact, after the book came out, I
(31:59):
have you know, I started getting emails from people saying, oh,
you know, I read your book and I had casule
in this cafe you know in Canada, or you know
there was this French chef in Wisconsin and he made
cassule on Thursdays. I mean, it's amazing. There's all these stories,
(32:19):
and you know, I was just interviewed by Joe donnahu
up in Albany in a local NPR station, and who knew.
He started the interview by saying, you know, my mother
used to make cassule at home. I said, you're kidding.
She wasn't French. She she was just a great cook.
(32:41):
And of course Julia Child has six pages on cassoulet
in Master the.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Art, of course, you know, but of course, and she
probably tested it for years and years and years and
years and years. Right. Yes, you know it is a
dish that, like several dishes like bergnawn like hey, yeah,
that you become obsessed with because it is a it's
also meditative. I mean, you are properly making it over
(33:09):
a period of time and there's a procedure you follow,
so it's a very meditative type of cooking as well.
You've got it. You know, the challenges often finding the
right bits and pieces of meats, but as you said,
you can adapt if you need to, because sometimes you must.
Depends on how authentic you want to be. Now, I'm
(33:31):
you know you talk about and it's very clear in
this book that this is the dish that saved your soul.
Talk to me about that.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Well, I knew that there was more to it than
just something I put in my mouth, obviously, So I
took this time off and I went to this writer's retreat,
and the key to the story came to me, I think,
after honestly a few days of just staring at, you know,
(34:05):
out the window, and the key is actually I'm just
have the book right here, but the key was, it's
actually the first sentence of the first chapter. We never
ate Cassule at Beauchamp, my Swiss childhood home above Lake Geneva.
(34:26):
We didn't eat lentils either, or any other mundane lagoon
for that matter. And so in fact, it sort of
forced me to realize that I had to go deep
into the way I was brought up, what happened at
this dining room table, what happened between my parents, what
(34:47):
happened with my sisters? And yes, I mean it was
a story that I needed to.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Tell so much like other foods that evoke memories, whether
it's pushed to the madelins or dishes that take you
back in time. And in your case, it was not
a childhood dish, which I thought was really interesting because
often with these powerful memories, it starts with a dish.
You know, for me, it's a version of pow LoVa,
(35:14):
which my grandmother made, and my mother maid and and
and pavlova evokes a memory of many a beautiful memory.
But you know it's I grew up eating it. You
did grow up eating casselet, and you're very clear about that,
And yet it evoked a powerful memory. You learned that
your parents had an interesting marriage. It was a convenient marriage,
as we'll say euphemistically. Your sisters had their issues and
(35:38):
you had your sister. You had to deal with that
over time and come to some terms of endearment, as
they say, right.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Yes, yes, absolutely, and and that you're absolutely correct. Usually
these stories transport I'm thinking of you know, ratatui. For example,
you have the uh, the critic who's transported back in
the you know, kitchen of his mother because she made ratatui.
But in my case, it didn't make any sense. Uh.
(36:11):
And that's why it took me so long to realize
that there was a reasons why, you know, a reason
why cassulet tasted like home.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
So interesting that cassule tasted like home, but again it
was a dish that was less familiar, but it tasted
like home. Do you it brought you comfort? I guess
I'm curious. You also talk about how it brought you
closer to faith? How how does this dish interweave with
your and writing this book and faith?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Well, you know, I'm Jewish and and my parents were
actually the co founders of a the first Reformed congregation
in Switzerland, so they were not necessarily observant. But this happened.
And it's sort of interesting story because they with a
(37:03):
group of friends, decided in the sixties to take a
road trip from New York to San Francisco. And so
they bought a used car. I mean, it's crazy story.
And they bought the used car in New York. Now
they were all living in Europe, right, and they crossed
(37:24):
the United States and they sold it when they arrived
to San Francisco. But one of their stop was Dallas,
and they found themselves in Dallas on a Friday night,
and I guess somebody said, well, maybe there's a synagogue
we can go to. And I think it was more
about curiosity than you know, feeling religious really, but they
(37:49):
ended up at this congregation, the Reform congregation, where for
the first time in their lives, they heard the service
in English. They understood everything that was being said. Men
and women were sitting together, and when the service was over,
the rabbi came to them and was thrilled to have
(38:11):
them join his family for Shabbad dinner. And basically, my
parents and their friends came back to Geneva thinking we
need to create something like that, and they did, and
the congregation is still going and the first Friday night
service happened in our living room in the big house.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Wow, that's such an interesting connection back to religion. I
grew up in a southern Jewish means we have Christmas
trees up here around My father was My father was
clearly much more religious than my mother, but having dealt
more recently with my mother's death and how the Jewish
(38:57):
community has rallied behind me. It has created a connection
that I did not have in the past. Interestingly enough, yes,
so I thought that was also very interesting. What else
did you learn as you wrote? What other revelations did
you uncover that you were like, wow, you.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Know, I'll tell you one more thing about about feeling Jewish.
You know, my mother grew up in Paris. She was
born in nineteen twenty five, and she and her parents
were very secular. They really didn't care that they were Jewish.
They didn't follow anything. They celebrated Christmas and painted eggs,
(39:44):
you know, at Easter, and then you know, July sixteen,
nineteen forty two, there was a knock on the door
of their apartment and it was the French police, you know,
coming from my mother and her mother to take them away,
and it was a miracle that they escaped. So I
grew up with this story and also with what my
(40:08):
mother always said, which is, whether you feel Jewish or not,
you're going to be on the list when they come.
And so you might as well know, you know, what
being Jewish is all about, and then you can decide
whether to observe or not. But it was the reason why,
you know, I wanted both my children to be bar
(40:30):
mitzvah because it is part of our identity and we
might as well learn about it.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
I think that's so interesting. And it has taken me
a long time, Sylvie, to get to that point, because
I denied for so long just to kind of assimilate
and be, you know, a part of every world. Yes,
but it does come back. The identity does come back.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
I mean, I understand it. Stand you can go both ways.
And I think we we cope with with our identities,
you know, the way we can. Sometimes we have to
face what is there, and sometimes we want to bury.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
It, exactly. And I think a lot depends on what's
going on in your life and how you evolve in
your life. Yes, and and you know, obviously age and
trauma and changes can change everything. As I watched my husband,
uh we dug out manuas trying to sell things and
(41:38):
we found four manuras. And I watched my husband every
night faithfully he's Episcopalian, and he faithfully lit the tonica
candles as a nod to the tradition in my home
while my mother lay dying in the other room. It
was very powerful visual and he it for him. It
became very peaceful to do that is very important for
(42:00):
him to do it every night. And I was amazed
by it, to be honest, because it had not been
done in so long in her house. Really really, and
what other revelations. And in the book, your father passes
away from cancer, as did mine, and that was very difficult.
(42:21):
You were able to see him. You were pregnant, so
you were not able to go to the funeral though, right.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
So I saw him in July, and he died at
the end of September, and it was three weeks away
from the birth of my son. So I was in
New York when he died. And yeah, I couldn't go
to the funeral. And I have very contradictory feelings about that.
(42:47):
I think on one hand, I was relieved, to tell
you the truth, I was relieved not to have to
go through that. On the other hand, it was horrendous
not to be able to be there with him in
the last few days.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
I think so many people experienced that during COVID.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
Yes exactly. And I gave my son as his second name.
I gave him my father's name. Yep.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
Now you I love the journey you went. You did
the road trip with your children. I learned that the ends.
I learned all about the N sevens you wrote. As
I was reading, I was like, we were just on
it because you were recounting stopping and getting the Montelamar sweets.
I was at those gas stations, like there was one
in there. You talk about this great gas station, your
(43:36):
tan armoroitage, where we were on our very recent road
trip through twitter Fronts, and I was like, damn, I
wish we were at that gas station because the gas
stations have some pretty good food. Because as we traveled
off and we didn't have time to have leisurely meals
because we were racing from winery to wineries, that we
would go to the gas stations and have these wonderful sandwiches.
(43:56):
We went to the Valerona shop. It was closed the
day we were there, but I followed you around and
I said today that we've got to do this again,
more leisurely. But I didn't know that they all all
these national roads started Notre Dame. Is it all of
them or just that one?
Speaker 3 (44:11):
Yes, all the national roads start at Notre Dame and
this one the National seven National set, uh, you know,
goes all the way down to Monton after Nie near Monaco,
And yes, I love taking that trip. I wrote the
story for sever magazine. It was a huge story with
(44:33):
amazing photography from London Norman and and actually I still
have the box of all of these the research for
that trip, because I'm thinking, maybe that's another book. It's
not the book I'm working on right now, but maybe
it's a future book.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
What is the book you're working on now?
Speaker 3 (44:53):
So I'm actually working on a historical novel that has
nothing to do with food, but it's based around the
life of my mother's older brother, who was born in
South Paulo in nineteen eighteen and died in the mountains
of France in nineteen forty four at age twenty six.
(45:14):
My mother's life is very much sort of cut in two,
you know, before the knock on the door and after.
But the death of her older brother. He was her
half brother. But the death of her brother was a
wound that she you know, to this day. I mean,
(45:34):
she never overcame that. And that's the photo that she
has on her nightstand, you know, this black and white
shot of him in his soldier's uniform. And so we
grew up, you know, my sisters and I with this
image of this perfect, ideal young man. And when I
(45:58):
decided to write about him, I realized I had to
go fiction because we really didn't know who he was.
She had kind of an idealistic little girl feeling about
this older brother. He was seven years older than her.
But so, yeah, it's it's a great project.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
It should be, and it'll probably bring out a lot
of other emotions as well. The more you write about family,
the more you uncover things along the way and that
are good not good. And you're I read in your
bio this is the uncle that died in the French
Resistance and you went to visit this area.
Speaker 3 (46:41):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
Then you won an award from the Journalism Award for writing.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
In fact, it was that piece. You're right, It was
a travel piece that I started with, a travel piece
about the Vercore Mountains of France, because a lot of
travelers don't know this area. It's above Grenoble, you know,
and even when people drive from Paris to Provence, you know,
(47:12):
they go through this area, but they don't stop. And
then there's this sort of huge rocky monster looking like
a ship. It's a it's a mountain range that's pretty austere,
and that's it was a bastion of the French resistance
and and actually has an amazing history because it was
(47:36):
a it was an area that you know, the goal
had sort of hoped could serve as a landing post
for the Allies before D Day, and then you know,
the resistance people were betrayed and my uncle worked on
(48:01):
this secret airport in the mountains, but the planes that
finally landed there were German planes.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
I've been very fascinated about this Sestery ever since I
found My father was also a wine educator, among many things,
and I found the book Wine in War, which is
a definitive book about how the Germans just basically obliterated
many wine, particularly Champagne and of sauce and Bordeaux, and
it was a fascinating book and I was inspired to
(48:33):
pick it off the shelf after it's sitting there for
many years. After going to the Laire and going to
the Coule des Serent and seeing a marker in the
middle of a vineyard field, the field with a store
of David on it, and I sort of thinking about
that was it a grave? What was it? And then
seeing bullet holes in different wineries. So it's fascinating. It
(48:58):
is to go back, It really really is, and an
interesting departure to sow your incredible breadth and depth of writing,
which is I think really important. You never should. I'm
a big believer in journalism. You can specialize in one thing,
but you should also have other interests so that you're
not one dimensional and your income is at one dimensional.
And you know, kudos to you for being successfully able
(49:19):
to have a great career. I do want to also
point out in a little bit of time you left
up you also co authored daniel Blues definitive book, Danielle
My French Cuisine, Childhood in Geneva. Yes, I love him
deeply and I'm getting ready to send him a photo.
My mother adored him and one of the photos on
(49:40):
her bureau was her she and Danielle.
Speaker 3 (49:44):
Oh so sweet one day and.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
It's there's yeah, it's it's an emotional photo for many reasons.
The interweaving of and again, this is really a story,
Cassille confessions. It's about a dish, but it's about life
and about the for something and the discovery of what's
in your soul. And that's why I think, because it
(50:07):
says food, France, family and the Stew that Saved my soul.
It sang to me because so much of food and
wine and whatever evolves so many memories, whether it's around
the table or a moment of time, a point of
happiness or sadness. And it inspired me, frankly Sylvia, to
(50:32):
get on the horn and start writing because so many things,
particularly for me in this past year, in the past
three years as I have lived on the road, certain
food moments during the travels and certainly wine have really
hit certain emotional notes in my own soul. So it's
a terrific book. We're winning on. I excited to see
(50:55):
you've got another book coming out. But for our listeners again,
Sylvie has written Cassolet Confessions, Food, France, Family and the
Stew that Saved My Soul. There are some very good
recipes in the back as well, how to make cassulelet
if you want to taken on at home, including some
that are shorter than longer. Of course, the academy is
probably going no one, dude, no, no, no.
Speaker 5 (51:17):
Exactly, but it's always you can pursue perfection in the
kitchen kitchen, but you can also en in life, but
you can also accept imperfection, embrace it and say I
own it this way.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
Right absolutely. And we have a recipe that we call
Gateway Cassoulet that takes you know, one day and with
with you know, wonderful store bought stock and confie, you
know from d'Artagnan, and you know, things that make life easier.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
That was like when I was little and I'd make
minute rise resato asp of the Italians. But you know,
I did it my way with Campbell's cream tomatoes cream
and mushroom soup. That was my poor girl's ristoto as
I tried to think about being in Italy versus being
in Atlanta. So you do what you can. But the
key is get in the kitchen and enjoy food and
(52:12):
enjoy it as you eat it. I don't believe in deprivation.
I believe in dedication to good food and enjoying it
and and hopefully everybody will have positive food memories as
they savor your book and their next meal.
Speaker 3 (52:27):
Right, yeah, exactly. I love that.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
Well, thank you for joining us. I really appreciate it.
And best of luck with everything else you do.
Speaker 3 (52:35):
Thank you so much. Thank you, Melanie, thank.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
You, and for all of you listening. I hope you're
inspired to get cooking and save your life and all
it brings.
Speaker 4 (52:47):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (53:01):
They had usually ta
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