May 20, 2026 • 48 mins
Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) affects millions of individuals. While ADHD commonly develops in childhood, it can continue or first occur in adulthood. An ADHD diagnosis need not impede your ability to thrive personally and professionally. Many doctors, executives, entrepreneurs and leaders are succeeding outwardly but may be quietly struggling behind the scenes with ADHD, notes neuroscientist, Dr. Jennie Byrne, MD, PhD, author of "ADHD in Professionals: Embracing Your Brain."
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Fearless Fabulous You is broadcast live Wednesdays at 12 Noon ET on W4WN Radio - Women 4 Women Network (www.w4wn.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
Fearless Fabulous You Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:20):
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Speaker 2 (00:21):
Thank you for choosing W four WN Radio.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Hello, and welcome to Fearless Fabulous You. I am your host,
Melanie Young. I am so glad you're joining me. My
mission on this show is to inspire you to live
a life you choose on your terms. I like to
embrace women's health, exploring eating, staying healthy, and putting your
self care and your self worth above everything. It's not
(01:06):
often I get to have a conversation with a neuroscientist,
but we're going to be doing that today and that's
always exciting because I love talking to experts in the
field of medicine. I am always curious about how we
can embrace medicine and care to compliment how we take
(01:26):
care of ourselves when we know that self care is
paramount above all. But sometimes we may have a diagnosis
that we can't control, and that's where we need to
understand how to manage it. Goodness knows, I had to
do that with breast cancer, and my mother had to
do it with osteomheumatured arthritis. Today we're going to talk
(01:46):
about attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, which is known as ADHD
among other terms. I've learned, and when I told someone
in the medical field I was doing this show and
we were going to specifically talk about how it impacts
adult women, her response was, I thought it was something
(02:06):
that was really for children. Well, actually, ADHD affects millions
of individuals, and while it commonly develops in childhood, it
can continue into adulthood. And that is what we're going
to discuss today. How to manage an ADHD diagnosis, What
is it first of all, what it is not, how
(02:27):
to destigmatize it, and how to live with it. Whether
you were working in a professional environment or you're working
with people who may be diagnosed with ADHD, there's a
lot of areas we're going to discuss and to do that,
we're going to be talking to neuroscientist doctor Jenny Byrne.
She is author of ADHD and Professionals Embracing Your Brain,
(02:52):
which shows how ADHD often appears in high functioning, achieving adults,
probably like me, I have been diagnosed, but I'm wondering.
She is a ward certified psychiatrist with an mdphd in neuroscientists,
and she has built a career at the intersection of
clinical care, leadership, and innovation. I am delighted to have
her on this show. So, doctor Jenny Burn, welcome to
(03:13):
Fearless Fabulous You.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Thanks Melanie, I'm excited to be here with you.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Well, I read through the book, I learned a lot.
I sometimes wonder if I have an undiagnized condition because
I'm all over the place and I'm one of those
high functioning people. However, I learned also that this is
a term that has evolved over the years, and that's
when I learned about the term neurodivergent, which I never
heard of until like a couple of years ago. So
(03:40):
let's first talk about what is ADHD, symptoms and causes.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
I'm so glad we're having this conversation. Excuse me, as
you mentioned earlier, a lot of people, even clinicians, have misinformation,
which is sad, so let's talk about it. So one
of the chapters in the book is called ADHD is
a terrible name, and that's because I believe it is
a terrible name. So what it stands for is attention
(04:10):
deficit hyperactivity disorder. And the reason I think it's a
terrible name. It says attention deficit, and people with ADHD
brains actually can pay attention just fine, and in fact,
if they're engaged in something they're passionate about, they may
hyper focus and pay better attention than somebody else. It's
(04:31):
just they have trouble modulating attention the way they want to.
The second part is hyperactive, and this is a terrible
term because not everybody with ADHD has hyperactive or impulsive features,
and in fact, if you do have this, it looks
like restlessness in adults. So little kids may be bouncing
(04:55):
off the walls looking hyperactive, but as an adult sometimes
it just feels restless inside and then finally disorder. I
believe this is a bad name, and I know there's
some debate and controversy about this, which we can talk
about later. But I believe that it's a bad name
because we think five to ten percent of the population
(05:18):
has an ADHD type brain. So as a physician, I
learned about all the different types of bodies and things
inside of our bodies that we have, and our brains
are not all the same either. So that word you use, Melanie,
called neurodivergence, I think that's a good word because I
do believe there are different types of brains, and some
(05:38):
brains do great in some environments and not so great
in other environments. So that's kind of what the terminology means.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Well, it was very clear that it is not a disorder.
It's an orientation, is what you say, which I thought
was interesting because I agree, and you know, a disorder
is a negative like a disability, and it's not a disability.
It is just the way your body and brain are
programmed from what I understand.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
Yeah, And the reason that it's framed sometimes as a disability,
there's actually a good reason for that, and that has
to do with the way our culture is set up
so for people to get what they need for their
brain type, typically it's called an accommodation. To get an
accommodation at work, or school or wherever, you have to
(06:29):
have a label of a disability to get that accommodation.
So it's kind of a political cultural construct as opposed
to a neuroscience construct.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
I always wanted about that because I've applied for some
jobs in my life and I have a cancer background,
and then you get to that disability area and it's like,
have you ever had or do you have? I'm like, well,
I don't know how to answer that, because how does
that look on the other end. And I would think
that anybody who has a diagnosis of ADHD who is
entering the workforce or sort of changing jobs or re
(07:03):
entering the workforce, they may not want to check that.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
It's an interesting conversation about disability in general. It really
has to do with your brain and your body and
how well it fits into the environment you're in. So
one of my editors on another book, for example, was
wheelchair bound and when she was expected to go to
an office she had a disability. She couldn't get to
the office because she was wheelchair bound. But pandemic hit
(07:30):
she was working from home. Actually, she didn't really have
a disability, she was just fine working at home. So
it was more about how she fit into the environment.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
So interesting. So as we noted, it's most people think
it's common to children, and children were on tradition, she prescribed,
you list all the drugs dalin. These are the drugs.
Things change over the years, but I was surprised to
obviously those children grow up, it become adults, so they
(08:01):
still have you know, I guess the question is does
it ever go away in adulthood? And on the flip side,
can you get adult on set?
Speaker 4 (08:11):
So there's some debate about this still, but I think
the evidence is pointing more to the fact that this
is probably for your whole life. And if you are
coming in for treatment as an adult, probably you did
great as a kid. Maybe your environment fits your brain.
Maybe you were super smart and you know, you were
able to kind of coast by. Maybe your parents supported
(08:33):
you in a way that you didn't need any special
accommodations and then vice versa. Kids who quote unquote outgrow ADHD.
Maybe they designed coping strategies, they picked careers, they picked spouses,
they did all these things to help their style of
brain so that they're thriving as an adult and they
(08:55):
don't look like they have a disability. So it's still
a little debated in the little sure, but that's the
best understanding I have right now.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Well, it's like somebody who was born with a childhood
stutter and learns to adapt, or I interviewed, or I
was reading a book by someone who actually went to
another country to learn a language which helped him overcome
his stuttering. So it's simpler. So in adults, well, first
(09:23):
of all, what is the cause? What is the root
cause of ADHD? Is this genetic, environmental just freaky wiring
of your brain? What is it?
Speaker 4 (09:35):
So again, the best evidence we have shows that this
is probably genetic. It is highly heritable, meaning if you
have ADHD in your biological family, pretty good odds it's
going to pass through your biology as well. So for example,
if one parent has an ADHD brain, you know, probably
(09:58):
fifty to fifty odds at least one of the biological
kids is going to have an ADHD brain too. And
this is interestingly more heritable than any other psychiatric disorder.
So you know, people think about schizophrenia bipolar disorder as
being highly heritable and running in families. ADHD is actually
more heritable. So that's kind of a fun fact. But
(10:20):
I think what gets very confusing for people is that
our brains can look sometimes like we have ADHD because
of our modern lives and our lifestyle and the way
we train our brain to have short attention spans and
to be easily distracted. So that's where it can get
a little tricky. And some authors write about this idea
(10:42):
of an attention trait or something that is not your
biology but more your environment and how that's shaping how
your brain works.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
I can only imagine how this is happening. What's occurring
now with social media and the constant scrolling. You don't
newly know. Now two things, How is it different from
ADD because people always you know, tease and joke. Oh,
I've got ADD, which is attention deficit disorder? Right, how
is this different? And is that a real term? And
(11:12):
what are the real terms that you should be looking for?
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Great question. The real term is ADHD. The term ADD
is an older medical term that we used to use,
but we don't use it in the medical community anymore.
So it has lingered in our culture, but it is
actually not the proper term. So the proper term is
ADHD Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. The other thing I would
(11:40):
say is when people say I am add I think
what they're trying to communicate is they're struggling to modulate
their attention the way they want to. But I would
urge if anybody's listening, to not say that, because it
actually creates misinformation, and for people who do have ADAS
(12:00):
and are living with that, sometimes it can feel really
negative to them and stigmatizing. So I actually recommend that
you don't use that term. If you're not sure, if
you have ADHD and you're feeling this deficit of attention,
just say I'm struggling with my attention. And if you really,
you know, after hearing today or reading you think you
have ADHD, I really urge you to learn more, get
(12:23):
good information and maybe get an assessment. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Absolutely, And I you know, I don't like loosely flung
around terms period, Like people go, that's retarded. That is
so wrong.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
That was like, oh, my kids, you would kill me
if I said that.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Yeah, we don't say that, and it's just so wrong.
But I've heard it in the craziest ways and you have,
you know, everybody, be very careful, choose your words, very
careful before spitting them out, because.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
Particularly kindness, right, Like, it's just kind of it's I know,
there's like debate about you know, people feeling like they
can't say things and that's constraining them, and you know
a lot of people feel that way, and I get it,
but these words are actually really hurtful to people and stigmatizing.
So it's just kind of being kind honestly, not about
you telling you what you can or cannot say, but
(13:08):
just kindness.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
I think it's actually I've taken the time to become,
you know, become more aware of doing a little research
on current terms, including slang, because it has changed a lot.
I was in a social setting the other day where
I was talking to a family and you know, they
were non binary and then and so I had to
(13:31):
carefully say they you know, I knew what to say
because I didn't. But you've got to be very careful
because you don't want to you want to be respectful.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
And it's okay if you make a mistake, if you
say yeah something oh add oh you know what, Wait
a minute, doctor B said, I shouldn't say that anymore. Sorry,
that just kind of slipped at Like people are generally
pretty understanding if you just kind of say, oh gosh,
I'm sorry I slipped.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
So how do you actually diagnose ADHD and what are
the real symptoms versus the oh I have I'm multitasking,
I can't focus anymore.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
I love this question too. So the way I diagnose
ADHD so I take a pretty thorough approach. So I
do this all day. I've been doing this for decades.
The way I assess for ADHD is threefold. I do
what's called a clinical interview, which is like when you
go sit down with your doctor, your psychotherapist. You know,
(14:24):
they ask you about your history. You know, it's really
important to ask about medical history. A lot of medical
things you mentioned women especially, there are a lot of
medical things which can look like ADHD, so you should
always be asking about that. You know, we really need
to look for other things going on anxiety depression using substances.
(14:45):
So really getting that full history. That's piece number one,
and that's what most people do. I take it a
step further. I like to do two more things. I
like to do a computer test of attention, and that's
really the neuroscience piece. I can see with this test
of attention that you do on the computer at home,
how your brain is responding to stimuli. So that's my
(15:08):
number two. And then my number three is a standardized
executive function rating scale, and that allows me to see
what you and somebody who knows you well thinks about
how you show up in your life. And I put
all those three things together. If I have three out
of three, it's kind of a slam dunk for the diagnosis.
(15:29):
If I have two out of three, I'm like, okay,
that's probably what it is. But if only one of
those things matches ADHD, I'm normally apt to say, let's
look a little deeper. So that's how I do it.
A lot of clinicians out there will just do the
clinical part. I'm really trying to educate and teach other
clinicians now how to do a full assessment because it's
(15:52):
sad when the diagnosis is either missed or made in error,
because it sends the person off into rabbit holes that
probably aren't really going to be helpful for them, and
they're going to waste a lot of time and money
and suffering potentially. So that's why I like to do
a really nice, thorough work up at the beginning.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Well, I couldn't agree more. I have in a separate situation,
just in context why that's important and it's good to
talk to different professionals. I have a thyroid growth. I've
been monitoring it. One odal aaryngologist said we got to
take a thigh right out. We gotta have a thyroidectomy.
(16:32):
I don't need a thyroidectomy. I'm having it ablated. I'm
avoiding a major operation and permanent medication. So that is
why it is important to ask when you're talking to
different medical specialists, what is your methodology for testing and
compare because you don't want to go into something and
(16:54):
get a diagnosis it may not be quite what you
have and then go into a treatment or we're surch
that could affect you for the rest of your life.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
Or vice versa. You mentioned thyroid disease. Thyroid disease can
actually look like a bunch of different psychiatric symptoms anxiety, depression, attention.
So I always get labs done on my patients as
part of their assessment, because what if it's a thyroid issue,
like you don't need psychiatric meds, you need to get
your thyroid looked at.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
That's actually a really good point. It could be a
physical condition that's impacting and not. So you really need
to do a whole three sixty approach before getting into
the expensive part, which is the treatment, because treatment gets expensive,
and particularly if it's a lifetime. So how are symptoms
managed and treated? Managed means how you can manage yourself
(17:50):
and treated what you need to do beyond that.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
So I didn't say yet, but there are two primary
types of symptoms you can have with ADHD. Some of
them are based around in attention or distractability, and then
the other types of symptoms are around hyperactivity or impulsivity
or restlessness. So most people with ADHD have a combination
(18:15):
of both. But some people only have the inattentive kind
of day dreamy, inattentive, distracted labor and then some people
only have the hyperactive, impulsive, restless, driving too fast, spending
too much, interrupting everybody kind of impulsiveness. So most people
(18:36):
have a combination. So in terms of treating it, I
like to think about it like again, go back to
your brain. If you want to change the way your
brain works, you can do a couple things. Medicine is
one thing, so there are medications that treat ADHD. Most
people are familiar with stimulants, like you said, riddle and
(18:57):
add are all those are the ones. There's a lot
of stigma around those as well. But there are also
non stimulant medicines which for some reason most people don't
know about, like klanadine, guan fisine, straterra kelbrey. So there
are different medicines. There are also different neurophysiological things you
(19:20):
can do. And when I say that, what I mean
is you use the feedback from your nervous system to
train your brain. So there's already a video game on
the market for kids to help train their brain to
enter into certain states of attention, and there's a lot
more of this coming in the next probably five years,
(19:41):
so a little bit of a stay tuned. But there's
a lot of neurophysiological things you can do with the
electrical activity of your brain to train it. There are
things like coaching and psychotherapy. If you make it to
adulthood with ADHD, especially if it's been un identified, you
tend to have a lot of baggage that has piled
(20:04):
up over the years, and the coaching and the psychotherapy
can help you identify distorted thoughts or behaviors that you
have and then help you think about how I want
to thrive in my environment. So looking at your environment
and your brain and finding the ways to match the
two of them up is when people really thrive. So
(20:25):
that's kind of what you were saying around management. I
would call it even more than that, like not just managed,
but actually thriving, Like what does thriving look like? And
how can you get your environment to best match you?
Speaker 3 (20:38):
How do you know when it's time to You know,
you described a lot of symptoms that are you know,
typical multitasker as they overblow their I'm one of those,
or the distracted as like most kids these days, you know,
adults you my husband's hard listening. Uh, at what point
(20:58):
do you need to say and maybe give some examples?
Speaker 4 (21:02):
I need to see somebody, well, I would say the
first thing. If you're hearing any of these symptoms and
you're like, oh, that sounds familiar, and you have someone
in your biological family with known ADHD, you have a
really good chance of ADHD. So that person definitely should
talk to somebody. If you don't have a clear biological
(21:24):
history of ADHD. I think some of the flags to
be looking for would be a feeling of well, if
I could just blank, If I could just get the
laundry done and folded and put away every week, If
I could just be on time, if I could just
(21:44):
get my to do list done, If I could just
be calmer with my children in the evening, if I
could just stop impulsively shopping. If you have a lot
of this, if could, it, would have, should have, if only,
and you really haven't figured it out yet, Like that's
another flag that there may be something going on that
you haven't identified. I hear that one quite a bit,
(22:07):
and frankly, most people, by the time they come to me,
they've waited years. You know, it's hard to ask for help.
People feel stigmatized, they don't know where to ask for help.
Having ADHD makes it hard to navigate a healthcare system
to get the help you need. So normally, by the
time you're asking the question, you probably are ready to
(22:30):
get someone to take a look.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
So let's talk about this is a good segue to
ADHDIN women because women are always are multitasking now between
parenting and community and work and self care. And I
feel it all the time, and I'm not a parent.
I can't even imagine. I mean, I can really keep
up with the day, right now, So are there ways
(22:54):
that ADHD show up differently in women? And at what
age can it? As a woman ages can those symptoms
become more severe?
Speaker 4 (23:07):
Great question. We know that historically ADHD and girls has
been missed. As you said, you know, Melanie, most clinicians
didn't even know girls could have it, So most women
who are adults today, it would never have been diagnosed
in childhood because people didn't even know about it, right,
So most women with ADHD were not diagnosed as kids,
(23:31):
and unless they were really disruptive in class, they were
probably not a concern. You know, a daydreaming girl who
looks out the window all day maybe not a concern.
The ADHD girl maybe who has emotional breakdowns might be
labeled as something else, right, Women who have emotional lability
(23:53):
get labeled typically as being anxious or depressed, or you know,
just being you know, on their period or I've heard
all kinds of hormonal hormonal right, So that kind of
behavior in women goes missed for a long time. So
how do you know if you're an adult woman, you know,
what are the signs that are different than men? What
(24:14):
I have found in my work with women is that
they tend to internalize a lot of the shame and
stigma and blame and criticism and try to shape themselves
to fit their environment, whereas men, not all, but many
men don't try to shape themselves to fit the environment.
(24:36):
The people around them shape themselves to fit the man.
So the classic is like the man who's an executive
who has ADHD. He runs around impulsive and charismatic and energetic,
and everyone says, oh, wonderful, we'll just get him a
secretary to make sure he doesn't forget his appointments right,
And that male CEO probably has the wife at home
(24:58):
who is also managing the house and making sure he
gets to the club on time. But for women, we
don't typically get those supports. So if a woman executive
is having trouble remembering things and running around being impulsive,
it's normally a negative and she doesn't get help. And
(25:18):
then that woman goes home and tries to manage home,
and again she's still doing most of the stuff at home.
So women tend to struggle a lot, but they tend
to keep it inside, That's what I have seen, and
they melt down. It ends up leading to kind of
emotional meltdowns, which once you deal with the ADHD in
the environment, you know, amazingly, the emotional meltdowns go away.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
It's sad, it's true. And you know. One of the
things you know, I thought was interesting is you know
that many high functioning, successful professionals have ADHD. Obviously I
don't know who they are, but you do, and they're
(26:04):
doing okay, but struggling inside. And my takeaway reading your
book is that there may be certain careers or fields
or disciplines that can are better for people living with
ADHD because their brain works better in the situation their
energy does versus others. Can you elaborate on that.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
Yeah, So, for example, I work with a lot of physicians.
So the physicians with ADHD, and again most of them
never knew they had it, tend to work in high
adrenaline settings because that's where their brain is happy, and
they do really well. I mean, they're amazing at what
they do. So they're in the emergency room, they're in
(26:48):
the operating room, and they're in the intensive care units
and they do fabulously in those kinds of settings. I
work with attorneys attorneys with ADHD ten to in litigation
they are amazing in the courtroom, but when it comes
to paperwork, you know they're a disaster. Or I work
(27:09):
with a lot of executives who become entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs with
ADHD can be very, very successful because of the type
of creative thinking and charisma and energy that they bring
to their work.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Right, So I think it may be difficult to.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Work with, yes, exactly. So each type of profession has
typically an area or a niche where there's like a
high adrenaline component, and that's typically where I see the
ADHD folks do really well. But what's interesting is sometimes
they run into problems when they get promoted. So, for example,
(27:49):
one of my doctors in the OAR did great, was
an amazing doc. He got promoted and he had to
do email, and he fell apart and almost lost his
job because he literally couldn't do email. But he was
an amazing surgeon and could do anything in the r
but he couldn't do email. Well.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
I understand that because I've worked in public relations most
of my life until I had burntout, and you can
work up to your level of success and then get promoted.
I took on for a brief moment an executive director job,
and it ended up being much more administrative and tech
(28:32):
focused than I was just to being out and about people,
person out and about promoting and something, and I fell apart.
It was an epic fail. I lasted ninety days, maybe
four months. It was an epic fail not because I
was incapable. It was the wrong fit for my skill set,
(28:53):
which is being out and about and connecting with people.
And I learned from that experience that you need to
understand don't try to be a square peg trying to
fit into a round hole. It's perfectly okay, not too
but too many people and jobs and job descriptions and
roles don't think that way. So what is a way
(29:16):
if you are, let's say, if you are in the
process of and my audience needs to be women forty plus.
So you're re entering the workforce, maybe you've been let go,
your job has been eliminated. You've got to pick up
the pieces and figure out how you're going to move forward.
(29:38):
That enough is emotionally tail spinning. But then you've got
to factor in what your skill sets are with what
is become a laundry list on LinkedIn and other job
sites where you're expected to do four roles in one
So what is the best way to sell yourself as
someone who is awesome and employee while making sure you're
(30:02):
getting a job that is right, a position that is
right for you given your strengths and your weaknesses.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
And is a great question for ADHD or non ADHD right, Well, exactly.
One thing I would say that is a sad thing
I've seen a lot is if you have ADHD in
the workplace, sometimes you're the first to get cut, not
because you're bad at your job, but because your manager
and HR doesn't know how to best use you at
(30:32):
your organization. And so that isn't a sad thing that
I do see frequently. So what I would say, and
if you've been laid off or lost your job, you
know it is very hard, but never waste a crisis.
Sometimes the crisis is the best time to dig deep
and learn about yourself. So my recommendation is, first of all,
(30:53):
you have to know yourself. If you don't know your
brain and your body and how you're going to work best,
you'll never be able to describe to somebody else what's
the best job for you. So you really have to
know yourself. So things like what's my bio rhythm? If
I have ADHD, my circadian rhythm may be shifted. So
I want to go to bed at one and wake
(31:14):
up at nine. Well, jobs that start at seven are
always going to be a struggle for me, right, So
that may not be a great fit. If I'm somebody
with ADHD and I don't do well with verbal communication,
I do much better with short written communication. How do
the people at the job communicate? Are they just standing
(31:36):
around verbally saying things to you and expecting you to
retain it. Are they using a direct messaging app of
some kind where you can see what people have written
like it's almost more like what's the day to day
experience of the job as opposed to the list of
things you're supposed to be good at? So who are
the people? How do they communicate? What time of day
(31:59):
am I working? Am I allowed to turn off distracting
apps while I'm doing deep work? Can I turn off
my email for part of the day? Can I turn
off my DMS for part of the day? Is it
going to draw on my strengths? Maybe I do well
and high adrenaline. Is this a high adrenaline job? Or
is this a boring sit and crank spreadsheets all day job.
(32:22):
And it may be that with ADHD you can adjust
yourself a little to the job. And this is where
the treatment park comes in. Sometimes there are things you
can do with medication, like, for example, if you need
to do something requiring focus Wednesday mornings for four hours
in the morning, but that's it, you can actually titrate
(32:43):
your medication for those four hours so that the medication
is working for four hours and then the rest of
the time maybe you don't need it. So that physician
I mentioned to you that was a strategy for him
when he needed to do those things, he would take
short acting medication and when he was in the or
he didn't need any medicine at all. So it's like
you have to know yourself first, and then once you
(33:05):
know yourself, think about yourself like in that day to day,
like what are you actually doing, Like what is your
body doing, what is your brain doing? And is it
going to be a good fit? And if not, is
it something that a few tweaks here and there will
fix or is it really just not going to be
a good fit.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Right. If it's not a good fit, then maybe it's
time to talk to a coach. That's the coaching and
you note this is not a regulated area, but there
are some very good coaches that can help you with this.
Because you're not here to help people find jobs. You're
here to treat people who have ADHD and help them
learn how to manage their symptoms in their lives. But
(33:42):
then taking it into the workplace may need an executive
coach or a career coach to take it to that
level where you're interacting with other people to work environment exactly.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
And there are coaches who specialize in ADHD, right, So
I do a little bit of coaching, but there are others.
I have a resource list on my website that if
you put your email, it'll have a bunch of coaches
on there. If you have ADHD, I do recommence a
coach that knows about ADHD, because if you get one
that doesn't, they may recommend a bunch of stuff which
(34:12):
isn't going to be helpful to you. So you do
want to make sure you have somebody who knows about
ADHD and how it shows up in the workplace.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Please share your website.
Speaker 4 (34:23):
Constallation p l LLC dot.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Com and you're known on YouTube is doctor b Fight,
So this is a big one. You know, a lot
of coaches are trained in the you know, you got
coaches galore out there. So I think the fact that
you want you recommend someone who specializes in ADHD is
very very important. However, uh, in self care, is there
(34:49):
certain are there certain things you should be doing with
diet and exercise and stress management, other ways that you
can mitigate symptoms or times where it just seems to
be gripping you.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
Definitely things can help. I would say that sometimes I
see folks with ADHD rely on routines and then get
really anxious when they can't do their routine. So it's like,
you want to have routines, but you need to have
a little flexibility in there or you're going to make
yourself crazy, no pun intended. So exercise is particularly good
(35:29):
for ADHD. Most people with ADHD have some hyperactivity impulsivity.
Letting your body move during the day getting rid of
that energy is extremely helpful. So pretty much across the board,
physical movement is great. Doesn't have to be running marathons.
It really can be like step away from your desk
(35:49):
and lie down on your floor and stretch. It can
be you know, turn off your video on a meeting
and as long as your boss is cool with it,
just do audio and pace around your room. If you
have to sit in meetings in a physical office, ask
is it okay? If I stand up? Is it okay?
If I have a fidget under the desk? So physical
(36:11):
movement is good. It doesn't have to be a giant
workout for it to be helpful. Diet and X. The
diet part is always a tricky one. I know, people,
you know there's been a lot of debate over the
years about diets to help ADHD, member little kids not
being given sugar for a long time. I think the
evidence is that a healthy diet is good for an
(36:33):
ADHD brain, but it's not. There's no ADHD diet that
is going to manage ADHD, I guess is the best
way to say it.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Well, so if you see the ADHD cookbook, it's probably
a waste of time and money.
Speaker 4 (36:46):
I mean, if you want to, it's probably not going
to hurt you. It's just you could probably spend your
time more productively.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Looking, I would think caffeine and alcohol may be factor.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
Well. Interestingly enough, caffeine some people self medicate their ADHD
with big amounts of caffeine. So I have a funny
story I'll tell you Melanie. I had one man who
came to see me in his sixties for new diagnosis
of ADHD. His wife said, the only time he's been
calm and not hyperactive, he accidentally ate a bag of
(37:18):
chocolate covered espresso beans, which you can imagine how much
caffeine would be in a bag of esprecipen, and he
was totally calm. So some people do use caffeine as
a form of self medication. Alcohol is a little trickier.
It can make you more impulsive, so obviously if you're impulsive,
it's not like a great fit and it is sad.
(37:40):
A lot of people with untreated ADHD do end up
using substances to either self medicate or because of their
impulsivity to cope. Yeah. Yeah, so I think the diet
part is a little debatable. The one thing that is
really interesting for ADHD to me is sleep. I have
a lot of my patients and clients really struggle with
(38:02):
sleep since childhood. So many people with ADHD have been
shown in research to have a shifted circadian rhythm. So
I mentioned earlier kind of the night out. Not everybody
with ADHD has this, but many do where their body
actually doesn't get sleepy until one or two AM and
they actually don't wake up, And there's some strategies to
(38:24):
help that. But sleep is a really big one. I
have a couple clients right now I'm working with. We've
started diving into the details of their sleep and we're
finding that their rem sleep is very interrupted and so
their brain is probably not getting to refresh itself at night,
and when they don't get the rems sleep, their ADHD
is much much worse. So sometimes we're starting to get
(38:46):
into like more detailed look at sleep. I think sleep
is a really big one.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
I think sleep in movement even more than in hydration,
because when you're dehydrated, it can play around with you,
your energy, your and I would advise anyone to, you know,
keep a diary of your sleep, your water, your hydration,
and your food and note if anything is triggering you.
(39:12):
I know, for me, doctor Burne, if I don't have
enough water movement, I actually have brain freeze and body
I get lightheaded and unfocused, untethered, usually around three or four.
So if I have not had an adequate amount of
sleep the night before water, maybe the right type of food.
(39:37):
I know, sugar makes me go whoo, it's not good.
It's not good. I actually become disoriented. And I have
learned that. And I have a wonderful husband who make
sure I have food at a certain time every day
because he knows what's going to happen. That what I
call it two or three o'clocks. But everyone is different.
But I think everyone needs to understand that and maybe
(39:58):
pull back on something if it's not if it's not
feeling right. But that is not to replace working with
medical professionals to treat the condition right.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
And I would say for someone with ADHD, keeping sleep
diaries and things are sometimes actually difficult because of the ADHD.
He and they can get self critical. So sometimes what
I do with my patients is they'll get a tracker
so I've been enjoying the ring recently, or watches, and
we'll use the data from their tracker, which is passively
(40:34):
getting information all day long, as opposed to me asking
them to keep a log, because while keeping a log
is ideal, they may not be able to do it
because of their ADHD. And then they beat themselves up
and then we're in a shame spiral and then it
is not helpful.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
Are there certain trackers you would recommend.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
I've been using Aura. It's not cheap to get an
Aura ring, but it does have pretty rich data. I
find that the sleep data is particular, literally helpful. If
you don't have one of these most watches, if you
have a smart watch of some kind of smart watch,
most smart phone, yeah, most of them will have it.
You just have to wear it at night. That's the
(41:12):
thing where most people are like, I don't like to
wear a watch at night, but you can get data
from it if you wear a smart watch in the
at night.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
Yeah. I think my husband uses a smart watch. I
just do a pedometer and note my hydration. And you know,
I was asked to keep a diary on how much,
you know, how frequently I drank water and pooped, impede.
And I'm like, yet to be kidding me, you know,
not happening, just not happy. I'm not one of those people.
I write diaries and journals, but I'm not going to
document every time I you know whatever, So you got
(41:42):
to work with it. Now, let's talk about artificial intelligence,
which touches everything in that age are there tools and
developments that you find encouraging that can help?
Speaker 4 (41:59):
Short answer is yes. AI is all about trust and
it can you trust it. If you can't trust your AI,
don't use it. It will not be helpful, may be harmful.
So there are some promising things I've seen. I use
a little bit of AI in my practice. I don't
use it to communicate with the patients, but sometimes I'll
(42:20):
ask them to leave me voice recordings and then I
can use a custom AI platform to extract things from
their voice, which is really interesting, and then I can
always use or yeah yeah. Like for example, if somebody
if you ask somebody, oh, how are you doing today?
How are you doing this week? And they're typing, they
(42:42):
might say I'm okay. But with the tone of voice,
you get a lot more so it could be like, oh,
I'm okay. It could be like all right, I'm okay,
I'm all right, or I'm all right. You know. Like
tone of voice conveys a lot of emotional sentiment, and
so AI sometimes it's really good at extracting voice information
(43:03):
and putting it together with text information so that I
can asynchronously learn a lot from my patients. Or Cracker data.
For example, you said, you know, I'll ask them to
download their ring data, and sometimes I'll use AI to
help summarize what we're seeing in there. So it's really
more I use custom AI to help me as a physician,
(43:25):
but some of my patients are telling me they're using
AI to help them be like a little mini ADHD coach,
and so that's really interesting. I've been seeing some people
have success, but it can backfire a little sometimes too.
I know there's one ADHDD coach named Diane Winger. She's
actually developing an AI of herself that she's built custom
(43:49):
and design so that her clients can get a little
bit of her when she's not there. So I think
that's really interesting too, Like for a clinician or coach
to be able to kind of put themselves in an
AI so that you can get a little bit of
that person even when you can't be together synchronously.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
It's interesting. I know someone who's doing that with a
nutrition assistant. So it just China pops into your phone
with a tip. It's all very interesting. It's exciting to
see where AI is going. But of course the end
of the day, let's talk about and to wrap up
how important is the human connection in helping people with
(44:28):
ADHD And if you have a loved one or a
loved one with it, what are some ways to handle
and work with your behavior so they you're not competing
in conflict.
Speaker 4 (44:42):
I'm glad you asked that question. I've written a couple
books and the theme that ties them all together is
I firmly believe that the future is about being a
better human and letting robots do robots stuff and letting
humans do human stuff. I believe that humans heal each other,
and that true healing how ins because of our biology.
(45:03):
So I do really lean into the human part. I
think that all of the tech and the tools are tools,
and as humans, we've had many tools over the years.
When X rays first came out, they were really scary
and exciting. We didn't know what they were, what they
could do. You know, when we first had a microscope,
we learned all sorts of stuff. So tools are tools.
(45:26):
But at the end of the day, I really lean
into the human part of all of this, and that's
why the book is mostly about sharing stories. It's less
about academics and research articles. And I could nerd out
on all that, but I really believe that sharing our
stories as humans is very powerful. There's even some brain
(45:46):
evidence to show that when we tell a story, our
brain lights up in the same way that the person
who's listening lights up. So I really believe that that
human connection and sharing stories is what will help us
get over the stick and really understand each other and
just be kinder and be more human to each other.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Well, I agree. I mean, you know, technology has its
place and can speed up and make things efficient, but
the emotional and physical connection cannot be replaced. Not yet,
not yet.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
I haven't seen it. I don't. I think it's in
our biology. So unless we have a way to replicate
our biology, I mean, I do think it's in our biology.
Speaker 3 (46:34):
Well, I want to reiterate that doctor burn is author
of a book on this topic that do we have
the cover? I'm just asking, uh my, do we have
the offer of the cover? I don't know if we
have a picture of it or not. I send it.
I mean I have it. ADHD Professionals Embracing your Brain,
(46:55):
which is, you know, a good book for adults who
are in the world diagnose maybe wondering if they haven't
haven't been there, It is right there, thank you one
that's my engineer. It's available on your site, it's available
and where books are sold. It was. I found it
approachable and easy to read. You know, sometimes I get
(47:15):
these books, I'm like, oh god, I was able to
particularly cause I had to read on lines a double
long no God, but it resonated so that I want
to assure everybody it's a book that you can read
easily without getting like bog down clinical and scientific jargon.
And I thought that was very helpful, So thank you.
Speaker 4 (47:36):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
All right, So we have been talking with doctor Jenny Byrne,
and this is really great topic. I knew really nothing about,
so I learned a lot. And I hope that all
of you listening and watching it as well, because I
want you to make sure that you live life on
your terms, in confidence and in good health. And if
you get to make choices, which you always should, make
(47:58):
sure you choose the ones that are the best for
you and not the ones people want you to do
that may not be best suited for you, and always choose.
You're a listen fabulous Thank you
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(00:20):
be directed to those show hosts.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Thank you for choosing W four WN Radio.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Hello, and welcome to Fearless Fabulous You. I am your host,
Melanie Young. I am so glad you're joining me. My
mission on this show is to inspire you to live
a life you choose on your terms. I like to
embrace women's health, exploring eating, staying healthy, and putting your
self care and your self worth above everything. It's not
(01:06):
often I get to have a conversation with a neuroscientist,
but we're going to be doing that today and that's
always exciting because I love talking to experts in the
field of medicine. I am always curious about how we
can embrace medicine and care to compliment how we take
(01:26):
care of ourselves when we know that self care is
paramount above all. But sometimes we may have a diagnosis
that we can't control, and that's where we need to
understand how to manage it. Goodness knows, I had to
do that with breast cancer, and my mother had to
do it with osteomheumatured arthritis. Today we're going to talk
(01:46):
about attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, which is known as ADHD
among other terms. I've learned, and when I told someone
in the medical field I was doing this show and
we were going to specifically talk about how it impacts
adult women, her response was, I thought it was something
(02:06):
that was really for children. Well, actually, ADHD affects millions
of individuals, and while it commonly develops in childhood, it
can continue into adulthood. And that is what we're going
to discuss today. How to manage an ADHD diagnosis, What
is it first of all, what it is not, how
(02:27):
to destigmatize it, and how to live with it. Whether
you were working in a professional environment or you're working
with people who may be diagnosed with ADHD, there's a
lot of areas we're going to discuss and to do that,
we're going to be talking to neuroscientist doctor Jenny Byrne.
She is author of ADHD and Professionals Embracing Your Brain,
(02:52):
which shows how ADHD often appears in high functioning, achieving adults,
probably like me, I have been diagnosed, but I'm wondering.
She is a ward certified psychiatrist with an mdphd in neuroscientists,
and she has built a career at the intersection of
clinical care, leadership, and innovation. I am delighted to have
her on this show. So, doctor Jenny Burn, welcome to
(03:13):
Fearless Fabulous You.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Thanks Melanie, I'm excited to be here with you.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Well, I read through the book, I learned a lot.
I sometimes wonder if I have an undiagnized condition because
I'm all over the place and I'm one of those
high functioning people. However, I learned also that this is
a term that has evolved over the years, and that's
when I learned about the term neurodivergent, which I never
heard of until like a couple of years ago. So
(03:40):
let's first talk about what is ADHD, symptoms and causes.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
I'm so glad we're having this conversation. Excuse me, as
you mentioned earlier, a lot of people, even clinicians, have misinformation,
which is sad, so let's talk about it. So one
of the chapters in the book is called ADHD is
a terrible name, and that's because I believe it is
a terrible name. So what it stands for is attention
(04:10):
deficit hyperactivity disorder. And the reason I think it's a
terrible name. It says attention deficit, and people with ADHD
brains actually can pay attention just fine, and in fact,
if they're engaged in something they're passionate about, they may
hyper focus and pay better attention than somebody else. It's
(04:31):
just they have trouble modulating attention the way they want to.
The second part is hyperactive, and this is a terrible
term because not everybody with ADHD has hyperactive or impulsive features,
and in fact, if you do have this, it looks
like restlessness in adults. So little kids may be bouncing
(04:55):
off the walls looking hyperactive, but as an adult sometimes
it just feels restless inside and then finally disorder. I
believe this is a bad name, and I know there's
some debate and controversy about this, which we can talk
about later. But I believe that it's a bad name
because we think five to ten percent of the population
(05:18):
has an ADHD type brain. So as a physician, I
learned about all the different types of bodies and things
inside of our bodies that we have, and our brains
are not all the same either. So that word you use, Melanie,
called neurodivergence, I think that's a good word because I
do believe there are different types of brains, and some
(05:38):
brains do great in some environments and not so great
in other environments. So that's kind of what the terminology means.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Well, it was very clear that it is not a disorder.
It's an orientation, is what you say, which I thought
was interesting because I agree, and you know, a disorder
is a negative like a disability, and it's not a disability.
It is just the way your body and brain are
programmed from what I understand.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
Yeah, And the reason that it's framed sometimes as a disability,
there's actually a good reason for that, and that has
to do with the way our culture is set up
so for people to get what they need for their
brain type, typically it's called an accommodation. To get an
accommodation at work, or school or wherever, you have to
(06:29):
have a label of a disability to get that accommodation.
So it's kind of a political cultural construct as opposed
to a neuroscience construct.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
I always wanted about that because I've applied for some
jobs in my life and I have a cancer background,
and then you get to that disability area and it's like,
have you ever had or do you have? I'm like, well,
I don't know how to answer that, because how does
that look on the other end. And I would think
that anybody who has a diagnosis of ADHD who is
entering the workforce or sort of changing jobs or re
(07:03):
entering the workforce, they may not want to check that.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
It's an interesting conversation about disability in general. It really
has to do with your brain and your body and
how well it fits into the environment you're in. So
one of my editors on another book, for example, was
wheelchair bound and when she was expected to go to
an office she had a disability. She couldn't get to
the office because she was wheelchair bound. But pandemic hit
(07:30):
she was working from home. Actually, she didn't really have
a disability, she was just fine working at home. So
it was more about how she fit into the environment.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
So interesting. So as we noted, it's most people think
it's common to children, and children were on tradition, she prescribed,
you list all the drugs dalin. These are the drugs.
Things change over the years, but I was surprised to
obviously those children grow up, it become adults, so they
(08:01):
still have you know, I guess the question is does
it ever go away in adulthood? And on the flip side,
can you get adult on set?
Speaker 4 (08:11):
So there's some debate about this still, but I think
the evidence is pointing more to the fact that this
is probably for your whole life. And if you are
coming in for treatment as an adult, probably you did
great as a kid. Maybe your environment fits your brain.
Maybe you were super smart and you know, you were
able to kind of coast by. Maybe your parents supported
(08:33):
you in a way that you didn't need any special
accommodations and then vice versa. Kids who quote unquote outgrow ADHD.
Maybe they designed coping strategies, they picked careers, they picked spouses,
they did all these things to help their style of
brain so that they're thriving as an adult and they
(08:55):
don't look like they have a disability. So it's still
a little debated in the little sure, but that's the
best understanding I have right now.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Well, it's like somebody who was born with a childhood
stutter and learns to adapt, or I interviewed, or I
was reading a book by someone who actually went to
another country to learn a language which helped him overcome
his stuttering. So it's simpler. So in adults, well, first
(09:23):
of all, what is the cause? What is the root
cause of ADHD? Is this genetic, environmental just freaky wiring
of your brain? What is it?
Speaker 4 (09:35):
So again, the best evidence we have shows that this
is probably genetic. It is highly heritable, meaning if you
have ADHD in your biological family, pretty good odds it's
going to pass through your biology as well. So for example,
if one parent has an ADHD brain, you know, probably
(09:58):
fifty to fifty odds at least one of the biological
kids is going to have an ADHD brain too. And
this is interestingly more heritable than any other psychiatric disorder.
So you know, people think about schizophrenia bipolar disorder as
being highly heritable and running in families. ADHD is actually
more heritable. So that's kind of a fun fact. But
(10:20):
I think what gets very confusing for people is that
our brains can look sometimes like we have ADHD because
of our modern lives and our lifestyle and the way
we train our brain to have short attention spans and
to be easily distracted. So that's where it can get
a little tricky. And some authors write about this idea
(10:42):
of an attention trait or something that is not your
biology but more your environment and how that's shaping how
your brain works.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
I can only imagine how this is happening. What's occurring
now with social media and the constant scrolling. You don't
newly know. Now two things, How is it different from
ADD because people always you know, tease and joke. Oh,
I've got ADD, which is attention deficit disorder? Right, how
is this different? And is that a real term? And
(11:12):
what are the real terms that you should be looking for?
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Great question. The real term is ADHD. The term ADD
is an older medical term that we used to use,
but we don't use it in the medical community anymore.
So it has lingered in our culture, but it is
actually not the proper term. So the proper term is
ADHD Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. The other thing I would
(11:40):
say is when people say I am add I think
what they're trying to communicate is they're struggling to modulate
their attention the way they want to. But I would
urge if anybody's listening, to not say that, because it
actually creates misinformation, and for people who do have ADAS
(12:00):
and are living with that, sometimes it can feel really
negative to them and stigmatizing. So I actually recommend that
you don't use that term. If you're not sure, if
you have ADHD and you're feeling this deficit of attention,
just say I'm struggling with my attention. And if you really,
you know, after hearing today or reading you think you
have ADHD, I really urge you to learn more, get
(12:23):
good information and maybe get an assessment. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Absolutely, And I you know, I don't like loosely flung
around terms period, Like people go, that's retarded. That is
so wrong.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
That was like, oh, my kids, you would kill me
if I said that.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Yeah, we don't say that, and it's just so wrong.
But I've heard it in the craziest ways and you have,
you know, everybody, be very careful, choose your words, very
careful before spitting them out, because.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
Particularly kindness, right, Like, it's just kind of it's I know,
there's like debate about you know, people feeling like they
can't say things and that's constraining them, and you know
a lot of people feel that way, and I get it,
but these words are actually really hurtful to people and stigmatizing.
So it's just kind of being kind honestly, not about
you telling you what you can or cannot say, but
(13:08):
just kindness.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
I think it's actually I've taken the time to become,
you know, become more aware of doing a little research
on current terms, including slang, because it has changed a lot.
I was in a social setting the other day where
I was talking to a family and you know, they
were non binary and then and so I had to
(13:31):
carefully say they you know, I knew what to say
because I didn't. But you've got to be very careful
because you don't want to you want to be respectful.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
And it's okay if you make a mistake, if you
say yeah something oh add oh you know what, Wait
a minute, doctor B said, I shouldn't say that anymore. Sorry,
that just kind of slipped at Like people are generally
pretty understanding if you just kind of say, oh gosh,
I'm sorry I slipped.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
So how do you actually diagnose ADHD and what are
the real symptoms versus the oh I have I'm multitasking,
I can't focus anymore.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
I love this question too. So the way I diagnose
ADHD so I take a pretty thorough approach. So I
do this all day. I've been doing this for decades.
The way I assess for ADHD is threefold. I do
what's called a clinical interview, which is like when you
go sit down with your doctor, your psychotherapist. You know,
(14:24):
they ask you about your history. You know, it's really
important to ask about medical history. A lot of medical
things you mentioned women especially, there are a lot of
medical things which can look like ADHD, so you should
always be asking about that. You know, we really need
to look for other things going on anxiety depression using substances.
(14:45):
So really getting that full history. That's piece number one,
and that's what most people do. I take it a
step further. I like to do two more things. I
like to do a computer test of attention, and that's
really the neuroscience piece. I can see with this test
of attention that you do on the computer at home,
how your brain is responding to stimuli. So that's my
(15:08):
number two. And then my number three is a standardized
executive function rating scale, and that allows me to see
what you and somebody who knows you well thinks about
how you show up in your life. And I put
all those three things together. If I have three out
of three, it's kind of a slam dunk for the diagnosis.
(15:29):
If I have two out of three, I'm like, okay,
that's probably what it is. But if only one of
those things matches ADHD, I'm normally apt to say, let's
look a little deeper. So that's how I do it.
A lot of clinicians out there will just do the
clinical part. I'm really trying to educate and teach other
clinicians now how to do a full assessment because it's
(15:52):
sad when the diagnosis is either missed or made in error,
because it sends the person off into rabbit holes that
probably aren't really going to be helpful for them, and
they're going to waste a lot of time and money
and suffering potentially. So that's why I like to do
a really nice, thorough work up at the beginning.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Well, I couldn't agree more. I have in a separate situation,
just in context why that's important and it's good to
talk to different professionals. I have a thyroid growth. I've
been monitoring it. One odal aaryngologist said we got to
take a thigh right out. We gotta have a thyroidectomy.
(16:32):
I don't need a thyroidectomy. I'm having it ablated. I'm
avoiding a major operation and permanent medication. So that is
why it is important to ask when you're talking to
different medical specialists, what is your methodology for testing and
compare because you don't want to go into something and
(16:54):
get a diagnosis it may not be quite what you
have and then go into a treatment or we're surch
that could affect you for the rest of your life.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
Or vice versa. You mentioned thyroid disease. Thyroid disease can
actually look like a bunch of different psychiatric symptoms anxiety, depression, attention.
So I always get labs done on my patients as
part of their assessment, because what if it's a thyroid issue,
like you don't need psychiatric meds, you need to get
your thyroid looked at.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
That's actually a really good point. It could be a
physical condition that's impacting and not. So you really need
to do a whole three sixty approach before getting into
the expensive part, which is the treatment, because treatment gets expensive,
and particularly if it's a lifetime. So how are symptoms
managed and treated? Managed means how you can manage yourself
(17:50):
and treated what you need to do beyond that.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
So I didn't say yet, but there are two primary
types of symptoms you can have with ADHD. Some of
them are based around in attention or distractability, and then
the other types of symptoms are around hyperactivity or impulsivity
or restlessness. So most people with ADHD have a combination
(18:15):
of both. But some people only have the inattentive kind
of day dreamy, inattentive, distracted labor and then some people
only have the hyperactive, impulsive, restless, driving too fast, spending
too much, interrupting everybody kind of impulsiveness. So most people
(18:36):
have a combination. So in terms of treating it, I
like to think about it like again, go back to
your brain. If you want to change the way your
brain works, you can do a couple things. Medicine is
one thing, so there are medications that treat ADHD. Most
people are familiar with stimulants, like you said, riddle and
(18:57):
add are all those are the ones. There's a lot
of stigma around those as well. But there are also
non stimulant medicines which for some reason most people don't
know about, like klanadine, guan fisine, straterra kelbrey. So there
are different medicines. There are also different neurophysiological things you
(19:20):
can do. And when I say that, what I mean
is you use the feedback from your nervous system to
train your brain. So there's already a video game on
the market for kids to help train their brain to
enter into certain states of attention, and there's a lot
more of this coming in the next probably five years,
(19:41):
so a little bit of a stay tuned. But there's
a lot of neurophysiological things you can do with the
electrical activity of your brain to train it. There are
things like coaching and psychotherapy. If you make it to
adulthood with ADHD, especially if it's been un identified, you
tend to have a lot of baggage that has piled
(20:04):
up over the years, and the coaching and the psychotherapy
can help you identify distorted thoughts or behaviors that you
have and then help you think about how I want
to thrive in my environment. So looking at your environment
and your brain and finding the ways to match the
two of them up is when people really thrive. So
(20:25):
that's kind of what you were saying around management. I
would call it even more than that, like not just managed,
but actually thriving, Like what does thriving look like? And
how can you get your environment to best match you?
Speaker 3 (20:38):
How do you know when it's time to You know,
you described a lot of symptoms that are you know,
typical multitasker as they overblow their I'm one of those,
or the distracted as like most kids these days, you know,
adults you my husband's hard listening. Uh, at what point
(20:58):
do you need to say and maybe give some examples?
Speaker 4 (21:02):
I need to see somebody, well, I would say the
first thing. If you're hearing any of these symptoms and
you're like, oh, that sounds familiar, and you have someone
in your biological family with known ADHD, you have a
really good chance of ADHD. So that person definitely should
talk to somebody. If you don't have a clear biological
(21:24):
history of ADHD. I think some of the flags to
be looking for would be a feeling of well, if
I could just blank, If I could just get the
laundry done and folded and put away every week, If
I could just be on time, if I could just
(21:44):
get my to do list done, If I could just
be calmer with my children in the evening, if I
could just stop impulsively shopping. If you have a lot
of this, if could, it, would have, should have, if only,
and you really haven't figured it out yet, Like that's
another flag that there may be something going on that
you haven't identified. I hear that one quite a bit,
(22:07):
and frankly, most people, by the time they come to me,
they've waited years. You know, it's hard to ask for help.
People feel stigmatized, they don't know where to ask for help.
Having ADHD makes it hard to navigate a healthcare system
to get the help you need. So normally, by the
time you're asking the question, you probably are ready to
(22:30):
get someone to take a look.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
So let's talk about this is a good segue to
ADHDIN women because women are always are multitasking now between
parenting and community and work and self care. And I
feel it all the time, and I'm not a parent.
I can't even imagine. I mean, I can really keep
up with the day, right now, So are there ways
(22:54):
that ADHD show up differently in women? And at what
age can it? As a woman ages can those symptoms
become more severe?
Speaker 4 (23:07):
Great question. We know that historically ADHD and girls has
been missed. As you said, you know, Melanie, most clinicians
didn't even know girls could have it, So most women
who are adults today, it would never have been diagnosed
in childhood because people didn't even know about it, right,
So most women with ADHD were not diagnosed as kids,
(23:31):
and unless they were really disruptive in class, they were
probably not a concern. You know, a daydreaming girl who
looks out the window all day maybe not a concern.
The ADHD girl maybe who has emotional breakdowns might be
labeled as something else, right, Women who have emotional lability
(23:53):
get labeled typically as being anxious or depressed, or you know,
just being you know, on their period or I've heard
all kinds of hormonal hormonal right, So that kind of
behavior in women goes missed for a long time. So
how do you know if you're an adult woman, you know,
what are the signs that are different than men? What
(24:14):
I have found in my work with women is that
they tend to internalize a lot of the shame and
stigma and blame and criticism and try to shape themselves
to fit their environment, whereas men, not all, but many
men don't try to shape themselves to fit the environment.
(24:36):
The people around them shape themselves to fit the man.
So the classic is like the man who's an executive
who has ADHD. He runs around impulsive and charismatic and energetic,
and everyone says, oh, wonderful, we'll just get him a
secretary to make sure he doesn't forget his appointments right,
And that male CEO probably has the wife at home
(24:58):
who is also managing the house and making sure he
gets to the club on time. But for women, we
don't typically get those supports. So if a woman executive
is having trouble remembering things and running around being impulsive,
it's normally a negative and she doesn't get help. And
(25:18):
then that woman goes home and tries to manage home,
and again she's still doing most of the stuff at home.
So women tend to struggle a lot, but they tend
to keep it inside, That's what I have seen, and
they melt down. It ends up leading to kind of
emotional meltdowns, which once you deal with the ADHD in
the environment, you know, amazingly, the emotional meltdowns go away.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
It's sad, it's true. And you know. One of the
things you know, I thought was interesting is you know
that many high functioning, successful professionals have ADHD. Obviously I
don't know who they are, but you do, and they're
(26:04):
doing okay, but struggling inside. And my takeaway reading your
book is that there may be certain careers or fields
or disciplines that can are better for people living with
ADHD because their brain works better in the situation their
energy does versus others. Can you elaborate on that.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
Yeah, So, for example, I work with a lot of physicians.
So the physicians with ADHD, and again most of them
never knew they had it, tend to work in high
adrenaline settings because that's where their brain is happy, and
they do really well. I mean, they're amazing at what
they do. So they're in the emergency room, they're in
(26:48):
the operating room, and they're in the intensive care units
and they do fabulously in those kinds of settings. I
work with attorneys attorneys with ADHD ten to in litigation
they are amazing in the courtroom, but when it comes
to paperwork, you know they're a disaster. Or I work
(27:09):
with a lot of executives who become entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs with
ADHD can be very, very successful because of the type
of creative thinking and charisma and energy that they bring
to their work.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Right, So I think it may be difficult to.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Work with, yes, exactly. So each type of profession has
typically an area or a niche where there's like a
high adrenaline component, and that's typically where I see the
ADHD folks do really well. But what's interesting is sometimes
they run into problems when they get promoted. So, for example,
(27:49):
one of my doctors in the OAR did great, was
an amazing doc. He got promoted and he had to
do email, and he fell apart and almost lost his
job because he literally couldn't do email. But he was
an amazing surgeon and could do anything in the r
but he couldn't do email. Well.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
I understand that because I've worked in public relations most
of my life until I had burntout, and you can
work up to your level of success and then get promoted.
I took on for a brief moment an executive director job,
and it ended up being much more administrative and tech
(28:32):
focused than I was just to being out and about people,
person out and about promoting and something, and I fell apart.
It was an epic fail. I lasted ninety days, maybe
four months. It was an epic fail not because I
was incapable. It was the wrong fit for my skill set,
(28:53):
which is being out and about and connecting with people.
And I learned from that experience that you need to
understand don't try to be a square peg trying to
fit into a round hole. It's perfectly okay, not too
but too many people and jobs and job descriptions and
roles don't think that way. So what is a way
(29:16):
if you are, let's say, if you are in the
process of and my audience needs to be women forty plus.
So you're re entering the workforce, maybe you've been let go,
your job has been eliminated. You've got to pick up
the pieces and figure out how you're going to move forward.
(29:38):
That enough is emotionally tail spinning. But then you've got
to factor in what your skill sets are with what
is become a laundry list on LinkedIn and other job
sites where you're expected to do four roles in one
So what is the best way to sell yourself as
someone who is awesome and employee while making sure you're
(30:02):
getting a job that is right, a position that is
right for you given your strengths and your weaknesses.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
And is a great question for ADHD or non ADHD right, Well, exactly.
One thing I would say that is a sad thing
I've seen a lot is if you have ADHD in
the workplace, sometimes you're the first to get cut, not
because you're bad at your job, but because your manager
and HR doesn't know how to best use you at
(30:32):
your organization. And so that isn't a sad thing that
I do see frequently. So what I would say, and
if you've been laid off or lost your job, you
know it is very hard, but never waste a crisis.
Sometimes the crisis is the best time to dig deep
and learn about yourself. So my recommendation is, first of all,
(30:53):
you have to know yourself. If you don't know your
brain and your body and how you're going to work best,
you'll never be able to describe to somebody else what's
the best job for you. So you really have to
know yourself. So things like what's my bio rhythm? If
I have ADHD, my circadian rhythm may be shifted. So
I want to go to bed at one and wake
(31:14):
up at nine. Well, jobs that start at seven are
always going to be a struggle for me, right, So
that may not be a great fit. If I'm somebody
with ADHD and I don't do well with verbal communication,
I do much better with short written communication. How do
the people at the job communicate? Are they just standing
(31:36):
around verbally saying things to you and expecting you to
retain it. Are they using a direct messaging app of
some kind where you can see what people have written
like it's almost more like what's the day to day
experience of the job as opposed to the list of
things you're supposed to be good at? So who are
the people? How do they communicate? What time of day
(31:59):
am I working? Am I allowed to turn off distracting
apps while I'm doing deep work? Can I turn off
my email for part of the day? Can I turn
off my DMS for part of the day? Is it
going to draw on my strengths? Maybe I do well
and high adrenaline. Is this a high adrenaline job? Or
is this a boring sit and crank spreadsheets all day job.
(32:22):
And it may be that with ADHD you can adjust
yourself a little to the job. And this is where
the treatment park comes in. Sometimes there are things you
can do with medication, like, for example, if you need
to do something requiring focus Wednesday mornings for four hours
in the morning, but that's it, you can actually titrate
(32:43):
your medication for those four hours so that the medication
is working for four hours and then the rest of
the time maybe you don't need it. So that physician
I mentioned to you that was a strategy for him
when he needed to do those things, he would take
short acting medication and when he was in the or
he didn't need any medicine at all. So it's like
you have to know yourself first, and then once you
(33:05):
know yourself, think about yourself like in that day to day,
like what are you actually doing, Like what is your
body doing, what is your brain doing? And is it
going to be a good fit? And if not, is
it something that a few tweaks here and there will
fix or is it really just not going to be
a good fit.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Right. If it's not a good fit, then maybe it's
time to talk to a coach. That's the coaching and
you note this is not a regulated area, but there
are some very good coaches that can help you with this.
Because you're not here to help people find jobs. You're
here to treat people who have ADHD and help them
learn how to manage their symptoms in their lives. But
(33:42):
then taking it into the workplace may need an executive
coach or a career coach to take it to that
level where you're interacting with other people to work environment exactly.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
And there are coaches who specialize in ADHD, right, So
I do a little bit of coaching, but there are others.
I have a resource list on my website that if
you put your email, it'll have a bunch of coaches
on there. If you have ADHD, I do recommence a
coach that knows about ADHD, because if you get one
that doesn't, they may recommend a bunch of stuff which
(34:12):
isn't going to be helpful to you. So you do
want to make sure you have somebody who knows about
ADHD and how it shows up in the workplace.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Please share your website.
Speaker 4 (34:23):
Constallation p l LLC dot.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Com and you're known on YouTube is doctor b Fight,
So this is a big one. You know, a lot
of coaches are trained in the you know, you got
coaches galore out there. So I think the fact that
you want you recommend someone who specializes in ADHD is
very very important. However, uh, in self care, is there
(34:49):
certain are there certain things you should be doing with
diet and exercise and stress management, other ways that you
can mitigate symptoms or times where it just seems to
be gripping you.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
Definitely things can help. I would say that sometimes I
see folks with ADHD rely on routines and then get
really anxious when they can't do their routine. So it's like,
you want to have routines, but you need to have
a little flexibility in there or you're going to make
yourself crazy, no pun intended. So exercise is particularly good
(35:29):
for ADHD. Most people with ADHD have some hyperactivity impulsivity.
Letting your body move during the day getting rid of
that energy is extremely helpful. So pretty much across the board,
physical movement is great. Doesn't have to be running marathons.
It really can be like step away from your desk
(35:49):
and lie down on your floor and stretch. It can
be you know, turn off your video on a meeting
and as long as your boss is cool with it,
just do audio and pace around your room. If you
have to sit in meetings in a physical office, ask
is it okay? If I stand up? Is it okay?
If I have a fidget under the desk? So physical
(36:11):
movement is good. It doesn't have to be a giant
workout for it to be helpful. Diet and X. The
diet part is always a tricky one. I know, people,
you know there's been a lot of debate over the
years about diets to help ADHD, member little kids not
being given sugar for a long time. I think the
evidence is that a healthy diet is good for an
(36:33):
ADHD brain, but it's not. There's no ADHD diet that
is going to manage ADHD, I guess is the best
way to say it.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Well, so if you see the ADHD cookbook, it's probably
a waste of time and money.
Speaker 4 (36:46):
I mean, if you want to, it's probably not going
to hurt you. It's just you could probably spend your
time more productively.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Looking, I would think caffeine and alcohol may be factor.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
Well. Interestingly enough, caffeine some people self medicate their ADHD
with big amounts of caffeine. So I have a funny
story I'll tell you Melanie. I had one man who
came to see me in his sixties for new diagnosis
of ADHD. His wife said, the only time he's been
calm and not hyperactive, he accidentally ate a bag of
(37:18):
chocolate covered espresso beans, which you can imagine how much
caffeine would be in a bag of esprecipen, and he
was totally calm. So some people do use caffeine as
a form of self medication. Alcohol is a little trickier.
It can make you more impulsive, so obviously if you're impulsive,
it's not like a great fit and it is sad.
(37:40):
A lot of people with untreated ADHD do end up
using substances to either self medicate or because of their
impulsivity to cope. Yeah. Yeah, so I think the diet
part is a little debatable. The one thing that is
really interesting for ADHD to me is sleep. I have
a lot of my patients and clients really struggle with
(38:02):
sleep since childhood. So many people with ADHD have been
shown in research to have a shifted circadian rhythm. So
I mentioned earlier kind of the night out. Not everybody
with ADHD has this, but many do where their body
actually doesn't get sleepy until one or two AM and
they actually don't wake up, And there's some strategies to
(38:24):
help that. But sleep is a really big one. I
have a couple clients right now I'm working with. We've
started diving into the details of their sleep and we're
finding that their rem sleep is very interrupted and so
their brain is probably not getting to refresh itself at night,
and when they don't get the rems sleep, their ADHD
is much much worse. So sometimes we're starting to get
(38:46):
into like more detailed look at sleep. I think sleep
is a really big one.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
I think sleep in movement even more than in hydration,
because when you're dehydrated, it can play around with you,
your energy, your and I would advise anyone to, you know,
keep a diary of your sleep, your water, your hydration,
and your food and note if anything is triggering you.
(39:12):
I know, for me, doctor Burne, if I don't have
enough water movement, I actually have brain freeze and body
I get lightheaded and unfocused, untethered, usually around three or four.
So if I have not had an adequate amount of
sleep the night before water, maybe the right type of food.
(39:37):
I know, sugar makes me go whoo, it's not good.
It's not good. I actually become disoriented. And I have
learned that. And I have a wonderful husband who make
sure I have food at a certain time every day
because he knows what's going to happen. That what I
call it two or three o'clocks. But everyone is different.
But I think everyone needs to understand that and maybe
(39:58):
pull back on something if it's not if it's not
feeling right. But that is not to replace working with
medical professionals to treat the condition right.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
And I would say for someone with ADHD, keeping sleep
diaries and things are sometimes actually difficult because of the ADHD.
He and they can get self critical. So sometimes what
I do with my patients is they'll get a tracker
so I've been enjoying the ring recently, or watches, and
we'll use the data from their tracker, which is passively
(40:34):
getting information all day long, as opposed to me asking
them to keep a log, because while keeping a log
is ideal, they may not be able to do it
because of their ADHD. And then they beat themselves up
and then we're in a shame spiral and then it
is not helpful.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
Are there certain trackers you would recommend.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
I've been using Aura. It's not cheap to get an
Aura ring, but it does have pretty rich data. I
find that the sleep data is particular, literally helpful. If
you don't have one of these most watches, if you
have a smart watch of some kind of smart watch,
most smart phone, yeah, most of them will have it.
You just have to wear it at night. That's the
(41:12):
thing where most people are like, I don't like to
wear a watch at night, but you can get data
from it if you wear a smart watch in the
at night.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
Yeah. I think my husband uses a smart watch. I
just do a pedometer and note my hydration. And you know,
I was asked to keep a diary on how much,
you know, how frequently I drank water and pooped, impede.
And I'm like, yet to be kidding me, you know,
not happening, just not happy. I'm not one of those people.
I write diaries and journals, but I'm not going to
document every time I you know whatever, So you got
(41:42):
to work with it. Now, let's talk about artificial intelligence,
which touches everything in that age are there tools and
developments that you find encouraging that can help?
Speaker 4 (41:59):
Short answer is yes. AI is all about trust and
it can you trust it. If you can't trust your AI,
don't use it. It will not be helpful, may be harmful.
So there are some promising things I've seen. I use
a little bit of AI in my practice. I don't
use it to communicate with the patients, but sometimes I'll
(42:20):
ask them to leave me voice recordings and then I
can use a custom AI platform to extract things from
their voice, which is really interesting, and then I can
always use or yeah yeah. Like for example, if somebody
if you ask somebody, oh, how are you doing today?
How are you doing this week? And they're typing, they
(42:42):
might say I'm okay. But with the tone of voice,
you get a lot more so it could be like, oh,
I'm okay. It could be like all right, I'm okay,
I'm all right, or I'm all right. You know. Like
tone of voice conveys a lot of emotional sentiment, and
so AI sometimes it's really good at extracting voice information
(43:03):
and putting it together with text information so that I
can asynchronously learn a lot from my patients. Or Cracker data.
For example, you said, you know, I'll ask them to
download their ring data, and sometimes I'll use AI to
help summarize what we're seeing in there. So it's really
more I use custom AI to help me as a physician,
(43:25):
but some of my patients are telling me they're using
AI to help them be like a little mini ADHD coach,
and so that's really interesting. I've been seeing some people
have success, but it can backfire a little sometimes too.
I know there's one ADHDD coach named Diane Winger. She's
actually developing an AI of herself that she's built custom
(43:49):
and design so that her clients can get a little
bit of her when she's not there. So I think
that's really interesting too, Like for a clinician or coach
to be able to kind of put themselves in an
AI so that you can get a little bit of
that person even when you can't be together synchronously.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
It's interesting. I know someone who's doing that with a
nutrition assistant. So it just China pops into your phone
with a tip. It's all very interesting. It's exciting to
see where AI is going. But of course the end
of the day, let's talk about and to wrap up
how important is the human connection in helping people with
(44:28):
ADHD And if you have a loved one or a
loved one with it, what are some ways to handle
and work with your behavior so they you're not competing
in conflict.
Speaker 4 (44:42):
I'm glad you asked that question. I've written a couple
books and the theme that ties them all together is
I firmly believe that the future is about being a
better human and letting robots do robots stuff and letting
humans do human stuff. I believe that humans heal each other,
and that true healing how ins because of our biology.
(45:03):
So I do really lean into the human part. I
think that all of the tech and the tools are tools,
and as humans, we've had many tools over the years.
When X rays first came out, they were really scary
and exciting. We didn't know what they were, what they
could do. You know, when we first had a microscope,
we learned all sorts of stuff. So tools are tools.
(45:26):
But at the end of the day, I really lean
into the human part of all of this, and that's
why the book is mostly about sharing stories. It's less
about academics and research articles. And I could nerd out
on all that, but I really believe that sharing our
stories as humans is very powerful. There's even some brain
(45:46):
evidence to show that when we tell a story, our
brain lights up in the same way that the person
who's listening lights up. So I really believe that that
human connection and sharing stories is what will help us
get over the stick and really understand each other and
just be kinder and be more human to each other.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Well, I agree. I mean, you know, technology has its
place and can speed up and make things efficient, but
the emotional and physical connection cannot be replaced. Not yet,
not yet.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
I haven't seen it. I don't. I think it's in
our biology. So unless we have a way to replicate
our biology, I mean, I do think it's in our biology.
Speaker 3 (46:34):
Well, I want to reiterate that doctor burn is author
of a book on this topic that do we have
the cover? I'm just asking, uh my, do we have
the offer of the cover? I don't know if we
have a picture of it or not. I send it.
I mean I have it. ADHD Professionals Embracing your Brain,
(46:55):
which is, you know, a good book for adults who
are in the world diagnose maybe wondering if they haven't
haven't been there, It is right there, thank you one
that's my engineer. It's available on your site, it's available
and where books are sold. It was. I found it
approachable and easy to read. You know, sometimes I get
(47:15):
these books, I'm like, oh god, I was able to
particularly cause I had to read on lines a double
long no God, but it resonated so that I want
to assure everybody it's a book that you can read
easily without getting like bog down clinical and scientific jargon.
And I thought that was very helpful, So thank you.
Speaker 4 (47:36):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
All right, So we have been talking with doctor Jenny Byrne,
and this is really great topic. I knew really nothing about,
so I learned a lot. And I hope that all
of you listening and watching it as well, because I
want you to make sure that you live life on
your terms, in confidence and in good health. And if
you get to make choices, which you always should, make
(47:58):
sure you choose the ones that are the best for
you and not the ones people want you to do
that may not be best suited for you, and always choose.
You're a listen fabulous Thank you
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