August 7, 2023 • 50 mins
Every one of us has experienced some type of disruption in our lives, either major or minor. And it can occur at any age in our lives. The real questions becomes, how do we deal with it.
I am excited to have Linda Rosetti on the show. Linda has done major research into this topic for both businesses and individuals, and has develop some major solutions that have changed people’s lives. She has put this all together in her book “Dancing With Disruption”.
Please join us.
Dr. Doug & Friends Radio Show is broadcast on K4HD Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
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Dr. Doug & Friends Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
I am excited to have Linda Rosetti on the show. Linda has done major research into this topic for both businesses and individuals, and has develop some major solutions that have changed people’s lives. She has put this all together in her book “Dancing With Disruption”.
Please join us.
Dr. Doug & Friends Radio Show is broadcast on K4HD Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
Inspire Vision TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Dr. Doug & Friends Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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(00:00):
This program is designed to provide generalinformation with regards to the subject matters covered.
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services of competent professionals before applying ortrying any suggested ideas. You know,
so often in our lives, weall experienced some type of disruption, something
that says we're going to experience changein our lives, and that can be
one of the most difficult and scarythings that we can experience. And yet
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sometimes if we look at it froma different perspective and a different perception,
it's a blessing that's going to createa new adventure for us, a new
life, a new sense of joyand happiness. I'm really pleased to have
Linda Rossetti on the show today.She has done major research. She works
with both major companies as well asindividuals to help them understand how to look
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at that rather rather than a change, that it's a perception of the transition
that is going to be even betterin our lives. So I hope you'll
join us today. I think you'regoing to find it extremely interesting and fascinating.
At the end of the day,it's not about what you have or
even what you've accomplished. It's aboutwhat you've done with those accomplishments. It's
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about who you've lifted up, whoyou've made better. It's about what you've
given back. Denzel Washington, Welcometo Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is
to elevate the lives of others andto inspire you to do the same.
Linda, how are you doing?Welcome to the show. Oh, thank
you for having me. So niceto be here. How are you?
I'm good and I'm just really excited. You know what we're going to talk
(01:56):
about today. And as I've beenlooking over what you know, what you
do, it's just fascinating to mebecause you have such an interesting background and
all of a sudden, you're doingthis and I know you do this for
businesses and so forth, but you'realso doing it for personal And that's why
I really wanted to get you onthe show, because I really want to
talk about how you were helping peoplein their personal lives. But would you
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share with the audience a little bitabout your background and how you came to
this point in your life. Sure, well, thank you for that opportunity
to share a little bit. Iknow I've always been interested in this concept
of transformation, right. I've spentnearly thirty years in the conventional workforce helping
companies transform. You know. Agood example is I was the head of
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HR and administration for this big globalcompany, and well, that is maybe
interesting to some. What was interestingabout my experience there is my job at
the time was to take what weretwo hundred acquisitions and put them together to
have them behave as one organization.So it was a massive transformational activity.
So for the last decade, I'vebeen fascinated by what happens in similar transformations
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in individual lives, and so I'vedone research. I've collaborated with a number
of universities on research, and I'vewritten two books all about what happens at
moments in our lives when our conceptabout who we are and how we make
meaning in our lives shifts. Becausewhat my research has told me is that
we actually really misunderstand those moments.And we can talk more about that,
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but there's really a beautiful opportunity tothink about those moments in new ways and
to respond differently. And the workthat I do now is I train coaches
and social workers and all sorts ofpeople, but also work to educate individuals
on what's happening at times of greatkind of crossroads in our lives and to
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empower them to respond differently, becausemy research has proven that those who do
respond differently at those times have theopportunity to have a pos it an inflection
point in their lives, regardless ofwhat's in there to that moment. So
it's really that's me, doctor Doug. I hope that. Well, that's
I smiled when I looked at someof your bio. You've got an MBA
(04:13):
from Harvard, Yes I do.I don't think my older brother was there
at the time, but he alsogot his MBA there and just experienced experience
experience, which is just phenomenal.You know. It's interesting. I was
watching a TV show this morning andit was about the Amish community and how
this was a true story apparently whereyears ago someone went in and shot up
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at school and killed a number ofchildren, and it talked about how the
Amish people responded to that in sucha forgiving and kind way. And it
kind of triggered me because as Ihere, I live in Utah, Okay,
and there's a lot of things goingon here and in it's interesting if
I'm getting onto social media somewhere,all of a sudden, there's a huge,
(05:00):
huge group that have left their faith, and it's interesting to hear them
just complain and keep bringing up allthese reasons and on and on and on.
And as I was, you know, anticipating this conversation today, I
thought, you know, how interestingthat some people will have these things occur
and change in their life and theyhandle it in such a warm, loving,
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kind way. And there are othersthat get so resentful and the bitter.
And I think what we see herenow in our country is a lot
of that going on. Whereas changesoccurring, we're seeing a lot of anger,
a lot of bitterness and so forth. And so I'm fascinated. Now
your book is called Dancing with Disruption, right, okay, and certainly we
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are experiencing disruption. So I amreally curious. Let's talk about that a
little bit, and how do youlook at it and how do we help
people that are experiencing change in theirlife, which all of us are.
There's none of us will ever gothrough life without having a number of changes.
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And the response that we give tothose changes either affects us in a
very positive, happy way or itcan be very destructive. So I'm really
curious about the book and what's itabout, and so on and so forth.
Yes, and so that's really alovely set up to the conversation to
say, to observe that there arethose that respond with great kindness and compassion
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and others who are resentful to momentsof change. And I want to talk
about three different terms, maybe asa start to this conversation, Right.
The first is disruption, because,as you mentioned, it's everywhere, right,
we almost can't go through a daywithout encountering some kind of disruption.
And the ones that I'm most interestedin the work that I do are disruptions
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that really go beyond the inevitable hiccupsin our day. Right. You know,
we're on our way to the grocerystore to the office and there's a
traffic jam, and you know,for whatever reason, our schedule gets thrown
up in the air. Right,Those disruptions occur all the time, but
those aren't really the ones that piquemy interests. The ones that I invite
all of us to talk about inthe next few minutes are what I call
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gateway disruptions, and those are theones that challenge are thinking about who we
are right our self concept and oftentimeswe experience that in a number of ways,
like oftentimes we'll get some kind ofrecognition that our normal level of functioning
has somehow gone out the window.Right. You know, We're used to,
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you know, doing all sorts ofthings in a day, but all
of a sudden, we can't seemto get through the day, or our
ability to do things that we've alwaysdone seems to be completely corrupted. It's
like what's happening? And another waywe get we often get to it is
when we when we really struggle andsay, well, wait a minute,
we have some kind of realization likewait a minute, this isn't who I
am, this is an how Ibehave right, you know. So these
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gayway disruptions are ones that really challengeare thinking about who we are or how
we make meaning in the world.And they can they can come at us
from all sorts of ways, right. They can be planful things like a
retirement or a marriage or the welcomingof another child, or they can be
unexpected things like you know, allof a sudden a health crisis or um,
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you know, a job loss ora big mergert at a company that
you know, changes our entire outlookof what our employment might be like.
So there's all sorts of initiating circumstancesthat can kind of deposited at these moments
of disruption. But the ones thatI think are so interesting and help us
really understand kind of this change thatyou reference in a different way is are
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these are these um these ones thatare kind of very meaningful in terms of
their impact on who we are andhow we our mental model that we use
to kind of think about ourselves inthe world we inhabit well. And I
think, you know, I thinkabout COVID and you know, the pandemic
and literally when that occurred, it'sinteresting to see, at least as I've
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observed it, how the overall cultureof our community in the US changed,
and probably all over the world.I'm just aware here, but it's fascinating
that there was that major change anddisruption in all of our lives to where
we had to be at home andyou know, on and on and on
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and on, and it appears,I don't know what your observation has been
that it appears to me like thathas created a storm of challenges that we
never really had experienced before. It'sinteresting, I agree with you. And
the thing that I find most interestingis it's I look at it. While
it was massive and it was meaningfulfor so many of us, I don't
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think anyone escaped the impact of it. Obviously, it hurts some pretty significantly.
They lost loved ones there there,you know, their ability to earn
income was disrupted all that, Butit has started a cascade of other right,
we mark that point as a cascadeof so many others. You know,
now we have technology like AI that'sthat's undoing our workplaces or changing how
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we think about careers or employment.We have you know, our longevity is
changing, so the profile of howlong we work. Like, there's so
many societal, environmental, so manythings happening. So the rate of disruption
seems to be accelerating, doctor dougAnd and I think that that's what brings
me to this this topic so sopassionately, like we really need to educate
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each other on how to navigate thesetimes, because it isn't the exception anymore,
right, it is it is thecommon experience that we will go through
multiple disruptions in our lives. Andtoo often, what I observed in my
research is without education on what's happening, too often people stall, disengage,
(11:03):
or retreat at these moments instead ofkind of taking advantage of some beautiful opportunities
that are kind of in the mistwhen these things occur. Yes, and
oh my goodness, you know oneof some interesting interviews that I've done that
have just created such curiosity with meas this concept of perception, and you
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know, I've got a couple ofbrothers that are attorneys, and as interesting
as we've talked and what happens tobe a personal entry attorney and talking about
how when an accident occurs, sayin an intersection, and you may have
four to five witnesses, every oneof them has a different story and why.
And of course it's kind of boilingdown now to perception of what we
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whatever we observe, we create aperception for ourselves based on all sorts of
beliefs and everything else that has goneon. Do you find that that's part
of the challenge is that the perceptionof what's occurring is literally creating the lives
that we're experiencing. It's such aninteresting conversation you bring up, you know,
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because yes, every time we respond, we're responding with the sum total
of our experience, right, thebeliefs we have, and every experience you
know, it can be from whereyou were in grammar school, or where
you lived when you were eighteen,or your early career, can be anything.
But every time we respond to something, how we see is influenced by
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the sum total of that experience,right. So it's really fascinating. And
what I found in my work isthat there are two terms that we interchange
in this notion of perception that actuallymean very different things when we go through
these periods of disruption. And thosetwo words are change and transition. And
it might be important to think aboutthose now because I think it might add
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something to the conversation. If you'reokay, I'll talk a little old please,
Absolutely, I think about be agood foundation. So it's interesting,
you know, Um, we wethink about change in our societies, you
know, this heavy, hard thing, you know, gut wrenching, Oh
my goodness, change. Um,but it's interesting that when we are in
the face of a disruption, changesare all about making alterations or variations on
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a fixed self concept or a fixedlike mental model. Right, So that
we we are we are pursuing kindof a known outcome. We can articulate
what we want, and we're makingalterations or variations, but our self concept
is intact. So let's just say, you know, easy conversation will say,
oh, perhaps I was a UMan employee at Bank of America UM
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and you know, for whatever reason, my I got I lost my job
and I'm going to go get ayou know, a new job at TD
Bank or or you know um uh, you know Santander or some of the
other ones you know. UM.Ultimately, at those moments, we're making
changes that are alterations or variations.But how we think about ourselves is intact.
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It's static, And that's very differentfrom a transition, right because in
transition we welcome instability for a timeabout how we think about ourselves. Right,
Because what's happening in transitions is there'stypically a shift in what holds value
and meaning to us, and asa result, we're re examining the assumptions
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upon which we anchor our self concept. Right, So when we respond with
change, we're really reinforcing kind ofa static mental model. But when we
explore transition, we're willing to kindof re examine, not necessarily kind of
throw out our early thinking and replacewith new, but we're we're willing to
think around things aren't static and fixed. We're willing to kind of be open
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minded and go beyond just alterations orvariations on something known and welcome new and
potentially even let go of some ofthe assumptions we might have held that we
might have now realized are beyond theiruseful life. And so this notion of
these two differences is pretty compelling whenwe think about how we respond to the
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current moment. Because there are thosewho are very fixed and say, oh
my goodness, there's absolutely no wayto think differently about this, and they're
making variations but no movement. Andthere are others who say, you know,
well, well maybe it's time torethink. You know, I don't
know whether we should drive, youknow, combustion engine cars, okay,
And we're willing to kind of thinkabout what that means. And that's when
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we when we look at transitions.And so transitions are all about these opportunities
to re examine what holds value andmeaning to us. And and usually what
that means is that is a gatewayfor a very transformative growth cycle. And
that's the thing that fascinates me somuch about this work, doctor Doug,
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because you know, as I lookat this this the major changes that are
going on around us, right,You've mentioned so many of them, you
know, the post pandemic, youknow, the economic changes, the technology
changes. There are some of uswho will come to those moments and say,
nope, change, there's really nothing. You know, I'll make some
alterations, variations, but everything's prettyfixed. And there are others who will
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respond and say, you know what, maybe this is a good time to
re examine some of our assumptions.And and what's interesting is that those who
do typically begin a pretty expansive pathof turning up the volume on their own
voices and m and that has incredible, incredible outcomes. So let me start
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there. And it's really interesting,you know, as you talk about it,
I think about this concept of change. So many people resist change,
and as you say, it reallygoes to this concept that we need to
be right. You know, everyone, everyone needs to be right, and
all of a sudden, if changesoccurring, but you know what, we're
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not going to allow ourselves to change. But as we see that, as
we resist change, what I seehappening, and I really love getting into
the whole level of emotional scale andso on and so forth, what I
see happening is all of a sudden, when we're resisting change, all of
a sudden, the resentment comes in, the anger comes in, all of
those types of things come in.Whereas if we're I remember, I think
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Buddha, whether I love all variousreligions, but I think Buddha was the
one that said that as we experience, as we look at something in our
lives that we think was suffering orsomething very not pleasant, we can either
look at that in a negative way, or we can be grateful for whatever
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lessons and look for the lessons thatwe can learn from that. And in
some ways, that's exactly what Ithink you're saying, is we can either
resist change or we can create thatcuriosity within us to say, Okay,
this transitioning is occurring, let meapply some curiosity to it, let me
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apply some gratitude to it, andlet me see what can I learn what
new adventure again? As I wentto school. One of the things that
when I was back at business school, one of the things that was said
was, you know, as weas we played different games in our lives,
and so you know, obviously youplayed a big game corporately. Now
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you've moved into a new game.And I think that all of us,
once we reach a certain point,realized that you know, alright, I've
achieved whatever that was, It's timeto move on to a new game.
And that can be very difficult forpeople. Well, you know, it
really can. And I've learned somuch from doing the research. You know,
I sat down with hundreds of peopleand just listened about their stories of
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how they make these shifts that you'redescribing. And a couple of things I
took away from the one is ourassumption about um age is um is open
for debate because you can be twentytwo or seventy two and choose transition or
you can never choose it, right, you know, it really is.
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It is really fascinating that, youknow, um, I'm grateful that I
found this practice, but it wasit was by chance, and and like
you said, it was because Iwas curious, like I couldn't reconcile the
answers I was getting from other people. I'm like, wait a minute,
this makes no sense, and andand so there is this curiosity. But
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it can happen at any time inour lives. And and you know,
some of us are are um.You know, the circumstances of our lives
bring us to these moments of disruptionearly. Right, Sometimes we're twenty two
or you know, thirty two,and we get to these places where we're
asked to make a choice. Andand others go through life and you know,
there's sixty seven before they're being askedto make it right. So I
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just want to honor the fact thatsome of your listeners may be at different
life stages and find themselves at thismoment. And then the other thing I'll
say is what I found stunning whenI did the research is that when we're
willing to open ourselves up to thepossibility that our self concept is growing,
right, that it's not fixed.In fact, it's growing, our emotions
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mobilize to keep us safe. Right, Our emotions fire to say, oh
my goodness, Linda, I'm goingto staple your feet to the floor because
they read movement in our self conceptas unsafe and so all of a sudden,
we need new techniques to try todiffuse the power of an emotion over
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us so that we can continue toapply our curiosity to what this all might
mean. And a good part aboutthe book that I write wrote has a
technique that you know, I trainlots of coaches on. I mean,
that's what my businesses is to train, which is an hr people and social
workers on how to use these techniques. And it is fascinating because with it
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to your point about learning, Ibelieve you can change the profile of an
emotion from being an obstacle to beingan oracle to being a site of learning
for us that we can use toreally, you know, inspire and support
our growth. Well, and youknow you talk about those very specific items
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that you talk about. In fact, you've got a reframing technique called hail
from what I've read, Can youexplain what that is to the audience?
And then I'd love for you toshare some stories of clients that you've had
to see the transition that's occurred intheir lives. Sure, absolutely, thank
you. I'd love to talk aboutall of that. But but hal is
a four step pneumonic meaning. Eachof the letters in the word hail h
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ai l stands for a different activitywe do to reframe emotion. And you
know, the word reframe is kindof one of those big words and you
know overuse probably, So let medescribe what I mean. And it goes
to your earlier comment of perspective.Right. It's as if you and I
stepped outside and I said, okay, doctor Doug, I want you to
draw this skyscraper that's right in frontof us, and you kind of get
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to work and you do your thing, and then I say, okay,
now that you're done, come,come, come, and we go across
the street and we ride up inthe elevator to an adjacent building. We
go to the roof, and onthe roof, I say, okay,
doctor Doug, now I want youto draw that same skyscraper, right,
but you have an entirely different perspectiveon that skyscraper. Right. So it's
fixed. Right, It's an itemthat's fixed, but our ability to look
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at it to see it changes radically. And that's what this technique hail helps
us do. It helps us walkthrough an emotion, so that emotion like
anxiety or regret or anger or fearor self doubt or perfectionism, that we
can take that emotion and diffuse itsour over us so that we see it
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from a different angle, and allof a sudden we're able to ask new
questions of ourselves. And and that'sreally the beauty, right is it allows
us to kind of break away fromyou know, I'm you know, I'm
I'm I'm racked with anxiety, I'mfrozen to I'm feeling anxious right now and
I'm thinking I'm going to do somethingelse tomorrow right that, you know,
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it frees us up, and it'sum, you know, it's it's been
an absolute, you know, gamechanger to tease you to people, it's
really it's really been quite quite extraordinary. Well it's interesting because you know,
again, as we talked about alot of who what we experience has to
do with our life and our childhoodand all of that. Growing up,
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I've gotten very interested in looking atpersonality evaluations, and the one that I
have adopted that I just love goesin and not only talks about the personality
and are the right brain, leftbrain introvert, extrovert and all that gets
into value us and all those typesof things. But one of the things
that it talks about that was justfascinating to me was what it is based
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on their personality? What is theirgreatest fear? And so interestingly, you
know, for some it's being criticized. For others, it's losing relationships.
For others, it's not having friends. For others, it's you know,
being taking advantage of There are thosethings. But as I've looked at that
and worked with a few people onthat, it's like, I don't believe
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anything is innate. I think someof that is there, But the reality
is, once you understand that,then how do you change that so that
you're not affected by that innate fearof whatever it happens to be based on
your personality? And so as youtalk about Hale, I'm waiting for you
to explain what those are. Yes, I will and let me and I
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love that. You know, Iagree. There are lots of personality techniques
out there to assess, but itsounds like you've found one that really works
for you. And there are somany um but Hale stands for h A
I L. And the first stepis honor. The second is ask.
The third is influence in the fourthis learned Right. So we we take
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a moment of upheaval in our lives, We'll say, you know, you
know, there's one story in thebook that I tell about me, and
it's this moment where I'm at ameeting and I'm responsible for a large part
of the deliverable and there's an antagonisticpeer of mine who's really given me a
hard time. And so my firststep is honor right, which is to
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say, Okay, what emotions amI feeling in this moment? Right?
And and the emotions that I wasfeeling that moment was anger, right,
that I wasn't being I wasn't beingacknowledged. Right. He would name everybody
else in the room, but henever said my name once right, always
like he just completely blew by me. And and and so the first step
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asked access to do something, whichis to actually validate by giving space and
time to the emotions we feel andby naming. Just the naming step alone
can slow down the pattern that theemotion is, can you know, comfortable
behaving within our world? Right?It's really slows that down. So naming
is important. The second step askis really asking us to think about why
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that emotion matters in our experience?Right, So why would I get angry?
Right? Why would I get angryin that moment? And I have
to say, like, I'm notsomeone you know, we've got in a
little sense for who I am.I'm not someone who carries anger. Right.
That is very That's a very unusualemotion for me. Right, So
I had to ask repeatedly, youknow, why is it that that one
is firing for me? And ultimately, in asking I realized that that it
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was all about being seen or beingunseen. Right. This notion of somebody
looking through me and not recognizing andI was in the room and that I
had a contribution to make was atrigger. Right. It was a trip
wire for me, right, sendingme kind of up and on, you
know, up the wall down theother side. Like it was really you
know, it was throwing me offbalance so much so that at one point
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during the meeting, I barked atthis guy, you know, I said
something very curt and everyone looked like, Linda, what's going on? What's
the matter with you? Right,Because they didn't see the rest of the
room. It was invisible to theroom. How grating. This man was
on me because I was the onlyone experiencing this unseen thing. My peers
that were also at the table hadno idea. Right, But and yet
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I behaved in a way that wasquite unique and based on my experience.
So the second step is we ask, we ask why it makes sense in
our experience. The third step iswe recognize how it influences us. Right,
So the influence for me was prettyclear. I acted improperly. Right,
I barked at somebody in a waythat was unprofessional. Right, shouldn't
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have done it. Reality is asI did. But I was able to
see how it influenced me. Andthe last question we ask is what we
might learn from it? And ultimatelythat is an incredibly personal response, right,
because for me, it underscored howimportant it is for me to be
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in a place where, in factI am seen, right, where somebody
acknowledges, you know, not necessarilythey see me like Okay, I'm sitting
here and I have glasses and Ihave you know, white airrings on.
It is my participation acknowledged in someway. And I think that that again,
the technique isn't intended to give usan answer like oh, my emotion
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of anger is right or wrong.It has nothing to do with that.
It invites me to ask a newset of questions so that I can keep
going. And ultimately, what itdid in that situation is it invited me
to participate in a different way.It wasn't about what Peter, who was
my peer, what Peter was doing. It was about my voice in my
active participation in that meeting, youknow, so much so that once I
(29:03):
did Hale, I did it actuallyat a break and I tell the story
in the book. Once I wentback into that room, I participated in
an entirely different way, so muchso that the person who was holding the
meeting at the end of the daypulled me aside and said, Wow,
we are so happy you were here. You really made a difference. And
so I say that because it isso easy for us to be just locked
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in the anger and stay in angerand not move beyond it. And so
what Hale tries to do is givea relatively accessible, repeatable technique that you
can use in the moment or inself reflection on something that happened earlier,
but help you take anger and say, boof, I'm letting go of that,
and it's instructing me not only tolet go, but to act in
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a way that is so much alignedwith who I am and the values and
meaning that I want to contribute inthe world. So I love the tool.
It's been tested with loads and loadsof groups. It's incredibly powerful,
and it's something that you know thatI do a lot of work with well.
And as you described that, Ithink of, you know, one
of the things I've been looking atis and I kind of phrase some of
(30:11):
this is be aware, be willingor courageous, and then be happy.
And really what you're talking about isthis awareness of being able to go,
holy cow, this is the emotionthat I just brought up within myself.
Why and then also understanding that ithas nothing to do you know, his
(30:36):
treatment of you really has nothing todo with you. It has everything to
do with him. And when peoplecan start to understand that concept of you
know, what if someone is beingunkind, rather than taking that personally that
I'm not good enough or what didI do and so on and so forth,
(30:56):
and go, oh, I wonderwhat they're experiencing that they would behave
that way. And So I lovewhat you talk about because it's really this
concept of becoming aware, which isnot easy for everyone. You know,
when when when someone you know hasan event occurred and it stirs up anger,
(31:17):
resentment, or frustration or fear orwhatever that is. I think oftentimes
the majority of people are not awarethat this is merely an emotion and that
that event has no emotion attached toit. It's just that we attach an
emotion to whatever event occurred. Howdo you help people as you're working with
(31:41):
people, how do you help themto get to the point where they're able
to be aware, where they're ableto use that process of hail and actually
change their direction based on what hasoccurred. So I think there's two There's
two things we do right. Oneis we educate them right. So we
(32:02):
first educate them on some of theroles that these emotions play, what it
means in terms of change and transition, and how we commonly encounter this right,
so that we give them a newcontext so that they can place their
experience of an emotion in a broaderset of understanding. That's the first thing
we do right. Because you know, knowledge is power, right, And
(32:23):
I don't mean that like beat yourchest power, right, but understanding really
helps us broaden our toolkit of howwe can respond. So the first thing
is is to educate and help peoplesay, wait a minute, there is
this way to maybe not just holdon to that anger, but to maybe
be different about it. And thesecond is we teach them techniques, like
(32:45):
we teach people how we go throughit repeatedly with people so that they can
really understand it in a different way. Like there was this one lady who
recently went through the training who wasa team leader in an organization and that
was a new thing for her,but she also then had to participate in
(33:07):
more senior level staff meetings, andshe came into one of the one of
the events and she said, Oh, my goodness, I regret that I
said this, Like I really regretit. I'm really having a hard time
because I did this and this andthis, and I really regret it.
And it was fascinating to listen becauseultimately where we got her after she went
through the technique was not releasing regret, but understanding it in a different way
(33:30):
that in fact, it wasn't thatshe made some grave error, but that
it was her response to the factthat she was stepping out. She was
turning up her own voice in away that was unfamiliar, and the regret
was this response to say, hey, don't you want to come back to
this other side where it's a littlemore safe? Do you really want to
(33:51):
step over there? And so itwas really very interesting how how tools like
Hale can really broaden our ability tobe successful in whatever context we're in,
because it helps us take this experienceof an emotion like regret, regret or
anger and experience it in an entirelydifferent way and in fact use it as
(34:14):
a way to move forward in away that's so much more aligned with the
contribution that we have to add.And whether that contribution is at kitchen table,
a corporate boardroom, in a communitysetting, it doesn't matter. It's
the same dynamic that really is opento people, which is these these periods
(34:34):
of disruption in our lives I nowunderstand as an invitation to turn up the
volume on our own voices. Andwhen I say voice, it's not necessarily
what you hear as I speak.It's it's really the ability to let others
experience the gifts that we have andwhat holds value and meaning to us in
a way that we can contribute,you know, that's in alignment with that,
(34:54):
and that is the opportunity. Well, and one of the things that
you said that I found fascinating,and this is where my question is going
to go too. You know,you talked about your experience, You went
outside, you kind of let goof those emotions and came back in and
just changed your approach. All right, it's the letting go. It's the
(35:15):
letting go. How do you helppeople to let go of those emotions and
those triggers that something happens and theyrespond in a negative way and at least
if they are aware enough and followingthat hail, they recognize that, Okay,
this is an emotion that is controllingmy life, my perception. But
(35:36):
how do you help them to letit go? You know? I mean,
you know there's the NLP, there'sthe meditation, there's all of those
types of things that everyone talks about. What has been your experience in successfully
helping people to let go of thosenegative emotions? Well? I wish there
was like one quick flash in thepan, right, But I can tell
(35:58):
you that I have seen repeatedly aseries of exercises which are highlighted in the
book, Right, I assume thatthe book is for people who need to
work through this on their own,and that there may be resources like coaches
or advisors and our friends who canhelp them. But I give them all
the tools they need. And thereare series of activities from learning about choice
and what it means to make achoice, to re setting expectations that we
(36:22):
hold for ourselves, or reimagining ouridentity or reconstituting connections. All of those
are exercises that contribute to this abilityto respond differently, and all of those
are highlighted in the book. Sowhen I say exercises, they're really a
series of questions that can be donein a self reflection way, whether you
(36:44):
write it out or you hit audiorecord on your phone, however it is.
But they allow people to really explorethe concept of the book in their
own life in this guided way.And then each of the exercises also feature
an example of somebody in the researchwho's gone through this exact exercise. So
those are in every chapter. Andand you know, I have to say,
(37:06):
like, there was one woman,and this story might might help us
put a fine point on your question. Right, there was one woman,
Lakshmi, and she was a verydynamic young woman, and she was in
her early thirties and she had beenin an MD PhD program at a big
ten university and working, working veryvery hard at this notion of trying to
become a researcher in a in aplace that she she had thought for many
(37:30):
years was a great place for her. And she came into the interview and
she said, you know, Irealized that this isn't who I want to
be. And she said it's crushing, because she said, you know,
from my whole life, ever sinceI was like a young teenager, this
was the path I was on.And she said, I never even dreamed
outside of this, right, Sothere's there are some expressions of who we
(37:52):
are thinking about who we are thatyou know, our sacrosanct right that that
we we have no experience beyond.And so for her, you know,
this concept, she said, youknow, it's crushing that this was terrifying.
You know that she was incredibly selfaware, I think, frankly in
hindsight. She said, you know, I always thought that, you know,
(38:13):
the reason people liked me was becauseI was academic and that's what I
had to offer. And I didn'tknow who I was going to be if
I stepped away from that. Andyet the reason why she was kind of
leaning in that direction was because shehad suffered a series of debilitating headaches,
like she just it was shutting herdown, and and because she was so
(38:34):
kind of physically and mentally self aware. She said, you know, I
kept asking myself, what does mybody know that I don't know yet?
Right it's telling me something like there'ssomething going on. So, you know,
she said, it was such aperiod of intense pain, you know,
physical pain that that you know,I really needed techniques. And so
we began this process of looking throughthe expectations she carried and the emotions that
(38:58):
fired for her and all too shebegan a process that is very It's repeated
everywhere in the research that I've done, which is people don't it's not like
one swing of the bat and weleave the md PhD program in whallah,
We're in a new place where we'reyou know, we're in a happy,
calm place. It's a series ofsmall steps that allow us to kind of
(39:22):
try and then validate this new senseof self and ultimately Lakshmi began to get
involved in some social services related tohealthcare, but but really in a community
base, not in an academic medicalcenter. And she said, you know,
I'm so astonished because my peers nowdescribe me as a good leader and
(39:47):
and funny, she said, youknow, I'm astonished because these were never
things that I thought of from myself. And so she went from a place
of pain and not knowing through aseries of steps that led her to this
place of kind of comfort and curiositythat allowed her to know herself in an
(40:09):
entirely new way. And I thinkthat, you know, as we turn
with some with some tools, right, tools like you've mentioned some, I've
certainly done research and offer some wewhat we offer ourselves is a new way
of understanding ourselves and the world weinhabit. And that is described by nearly
(40:31):
everyone in my research as enlivening andhopeful and optimistic and freeing. And so
I think that that's something that I'mforever interested in. That if we can
have people who start with being stalled, disengage or retreating in the face of
disruption and get them to a placethat in fact is enlivening and opening and
(40:54):
expansive, then I'm all in right, So I spend most of my day
is treat teaching people about this,educating them on this landscape, and giving
them the tools to explore it intheir own way. Well, and that's
so wonderful. And one of thethings you say, which I find so
fascinating is, you know, oneof the things that I've always talked about,
(41:15):
and I've learned this from other peoplewho have Readen books and so forth,
is look at your life. Isit what you want? And if
it's not what you want, thenwe need to go back and look at
what are those belief systems that arecreating the expectations and the perception of our
lives that we don't like. Andyou know, how do we become aware?
(41:38):
I guess the first step that comesto my mind is if you're experiencing
anxiety, if you're experiencing anger,if you're experiencing one of those negative lower
emotions in your life, wake upand realize that you know what, this
is not your life. You haveput yourself in a situation where you're experience
(42:00):
in life that's not elevating for you. And so if you can be aware
now you apply the hail or whateverit happens to be to really change that
around and to let go of someof these things, right, And I
don't want to to diminish how terrifyingthose moments are, right, I know.
I remember I was. I didthis training for nonprofit leaders in Chicago
(42:22):
not too long ago, and twowomen came up to me right after the
end of it was like all dayseminar. They came running up and one
lady was in tears and she saidto me, you know, I can
hear my voice, it's screaming atme, but I'm terrified to move.
Right in her mind, the consequencesof action were so scary. It was
(42:43):
if she froze, right. Sheshe knew it what it was she needed
to do, but to do itwas was beyond compare for her, and
the lady that was standing next toher was being silly. She put her
hand above her eyes and she like, you know, started looking like a
seafair looking at it distant land,and she said, you know, boys,
I haven't seen my voice in thirtyyears. Right, So I think
(43:06):
that we have to honor the factthat we all arrive at these moments with
a varying level of connectedness to towho we are, right, you know,
we we adopt, you know,provisional identities, We get used to,
you know, behaving in a certainway, We have expectations from those
around us, and all of thatkind of creates this soup that we have
(43:30):
to begin by getting getting aware ofwhat's in the soup. And for some
that's a five minute activities. Forsome it's a decade activity. And and
I don't want to diminish how frighteningit can be. So Hail is particularly
designed to um, you know,calm down the terror and allow us to
ask a new question, because ultimatelyto get to get some traction here,
(43:52):
we need to really bring new questionsto ourselves. Because you know, the
lady that's terrified and froze, andyou know, what is it in her
experience that is so scary about acting? Or you know, a lot of
people, particularly people who come tothese moments of disruption, you know,
midlife, late in life, sayyou know, I have so many responsibilities.
(44:14):
This is delusional. I can donothing. And I think it's it's
particularly those people that I want toeducate because actually we have a lot more
degrees of freedom right where we sitthan we realize. Well, and you
know, you say something that Ithink is so important for people to understand.
You know, I have a daughterthat was going towards her PhD in
(44:37):
sociology, and all of a sudden, as she was working on her master's
degree and she was on a realfast line to get that PhD, but
she's calling her means and Dad,and you know, she's experiencing anxiety.
She's experiencing some of these frustrations.And it's like, I was so grateful
that she could call me and thatI had the ability to, rather than
(45:01):
join in her with her anxiety,say hey, sweetie, let's stop for
a minute and let's look at thisnow. She finally decided to finish with
her masters and move on to ajob. She's very happy at what she's
doing now, which really has nota lot to do with her degree,
but in some senses, her degreetrained her to be better at what she's
(45:22):
doing. But a friend, Iremember just the other day, I was
going through some things and I'm thinking, oh, man, how am I
going to do this? And I'mthinking, you know what, I have
two people I can call. AndI did, and I called and I
said, hey, here's what I'mgoing through. And they listened and we
talked a little bit in When itwas all said and done, it's like,
I feel so much better. AndI think for the audience it's important
(45:45):
to understand that, you know what, not only can we experience these change
and transitions in our own lives,but we can be that person to be
able to help someone else who isexperiencing that if we won't into the old
adage of anger and frustration and expectationand rather, you know, what you're
(46:06):
talking about is just being aware andlet's talk about that and let's see what's
going on. So I think thisconcept of being able to make a difference
in someone's life and just a smallway by just being there for people is
so important. Of course you're doingit at a big level, which is
just amazing. Well, I appreciatethe very kind words, but I think
(46:28):
it's you're underscoring a very important partof being able to successfully navigate periods in
our life where we're undergoing massive shifts, and that is the connections we have
around us, right, and wecan serve as a connection for someone else
and as you say, be supportive. And there's two things I want to
(46:49):
just mention under this umbrella of connections. Right. One is very often people
have this assumption that if they're goingthrough a period of transition that they have
to leave things like, oh,I'm leaving a relationship where I'm leaving a
job, or I'm leaving this andand in fact, there's nothing that says,
nothing in the research says we haveto leave the support systems we already
(47:09):
have. We have to realize isthat very often the people around us have
a vested interest in us staying thesame, right, and so we just
need to be aware of that.We don't We're not going to throw them
under the bus. We're not goingto say I can't talk to you anymore.
We're not gonna do any of that. But we just need to bring
our awareness that the response we getfrom those around us may be informed by
(47:32):
the fact that their need is significantfor us to stay the same. Number
one and number two, the bestpeople we can put around us, and
certainly it seems like you can servethis way for your daughter, is that
the best thing we can do isask why not instead of why? Right?
You know, when people come andsay, well, you know,
(47:52):
I think I was going to dothis and this, and you know,
and and stays saying, well,why would you want to do that?
And our best, best next questionwe can ask is well, why wouldn't
you? Why not do that?Why not? Why not? And I
think it's a subtle It's one word. We're asking to a question, and
all of a sudden, if wesay why not, I'm communicating to doctor
(48:15):
Doug that I believe in you right, that you have that possibility within your
reach, and that kind of affirmationis irreplaceable at times of major shifts.
Absolutely, And I love that.You know, I've always used you know,
it's time for a new adventure,be courageous, it's time for a
new adventure. But I love thatconcept. Why not? And guess what?
(48:37):
We could go on for hours,but we're done. Oh my goodness,
what a what a pleasure to haveyou on the show. This is
just amazing. Well, it's beenmy absolute pleasure. Thank you for giving
the opportunity to talk with you andto talk with your listeners. It's an
absolute delight. And thank you foryour interest in this topic. Oh you.
(48:59):
And how do people find your book? It's called Dancing with Disruption?
How do they find it? Yes? Well I have it right over my
shoulder. Right. So it isDancing with Disruption, and it's available everywhere
books are sold. It's available inaudiobook, electronic versions, and print copies,
and it's also available through most publiclibraries. And if you have questions
(49:19):
or things you want to learn moreabout, LinkedIn is the best way to
find me, or just at mywebsite, which is Linda Rosetti dot com.
Okay, Linda, thank you somuch for me and on the show,
and folks, thanks for listening.I hope you gained some insights here
and some valuable diamonds that can makea difference in your life. Please join
us again and once again, Lenna, have a wonderful week, and thank
(49:40):
you and bless you for what you'redoing for others. Thank you very much.
It's been a great honor to talkwith you. All right, folks,
have a great week and we lookforward to having you join us again soon
This program is designed to provide generalinformation with regards to the subject matters covered.
This information is given with the understandingthat neither the hosts, guests,
sponsors, or station are engaged inrendering any specific and personal medical, financial,
legal counseling, professional service, orany advice. You should seek the
(00:22):
services of competent professionals before applying ortrying any suggested ideas. You know,
so often in our lives, weall experienced some type of disruption, something
that says we're going to experience changein our lives, and that can be
one of the most difficult and scarythings that we can experience. And yet
(00:46):
sometimes if we look at it froma different perspective and a different perception,
it's a blessing that's going to createa new adventure for us, a new
life, a new sense of joyand happiness. I'm really pleased to have
Linda Rossetti on the show today.She has done major research. She works
with both major companies as well asindividuals to help them understand how to look
(01:06):
at that rather rather than a change, that it's a perception of the transition
that is going to be even betterin our lives. So I hope you'll
join us today. I think you'regoing to find it extremely interesting and fascinating.
At the end of the day,it's not about what you have or
even what you've accomplished. It's aboutwhat you've done with those accomplishments. It's
(01:32):
about who you've lifted up, whoyou've made better. It's about what you've
given back. Denzel Washington, Welcometo Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is
to elevate the lives of others andto inspire you to do the same.
Linda, how are you doing?Welcome to the show. Oh, thank
you for having me. So niceto be here. How are you?
I'm good and I'm just really excited. You know what we're going to talk
(01:56):
about today. And as I've beenlooking over what you know, what you
do, it's just fascinating to mebecause you have such an interesting background and
all of a sudden, you're doingthis and I know you do this for
businesses and so forth, but you'realso doing it for personal And that's why
I really wanted to get you onthe show, because I really want to
talk about how you were helping peoplein their personal lives. But would you
(02:19):
share with the audience a little bitabout your background and how you came to
this point in your life. Sure, well, thank you for that opportunity
to share a little bit. Iknow I've always been interested in this concept
of transformation, right. I've spentnearly thirty years in the conventional workforce helping
companies transform. You know. Agood example is I was the head of
(02:43):
HR and administration for this big globalcompany, and well, that is maybe
interesting to some. What was interestingabout my experience there is my job at
the time was to take what weretwo hundred acquisitions and put them together to
have them behave as one organization.So it was a massive transformational activity.
So for the last decade, I'vebeen fascinated by what happens in similar transformations
(03:06):
in individual lives, and so I'vedone research. I've collaborated with a number
of universities on research, and I'vewritten two books all about what happens at
moments in our lives when our conceptabout who we are and how we make
meaning in our lives shifts. Becausewhat my research has told me is that
we actually really misunderstand those moments.And we can talk more about that,
(03:30):
but there's really a beautiful opportunity tothink about those moments in new ways and
to respond differently. And the workthat I do now is I train coaches
and social workers and all sorts ofpeople, but also work to educate individuals
on what's happening at times of greatkind of crossroads in our lives and to
(03:52):
empower them to respond differently, becausemy research has proven that those who do
respond differently at those times have theopportunity to have a pos it an inflection
point in their lives, regardless ofwhat's in there to that moment. So
it's really that's me, doctor Doug. I hope that. Well, that's
I smiled when I looked at someof your bio. You've got an MBA
(04:13):
from Harvard, Yes I do.I don't think my older brother was there
at the time, but he alsogot his MBA there and just experienced experience
experience, which is just phenomenal.You know. It's interesting. I was
watching a TV show this morning andit was about the Amish community and how
this was a true story apparently whereyears ago someone went in and shot up
(04:38):
at school and killed a number ofchildren, and it talked about how the
Amish people responded to that in sucha forgiving and kind way. And it
kind of triggered me because as Ihere, I live in Utah, Okay,
and there's a lot of things goingon here and in it's interesting if
I'm getting onto social media somewhere,all of a sudden, there's a huge,
(05:00):
huge group that have left their faith, and it's interesting to hear them
just complain and keep bringing up allthese reasons and on and on and on.
And as I was, you know, anticipating this conversation today, I
thought, you know, how interestingthat some people will have these things occur
and change in their life and theyhandle it in such a warm, loving,
(05:25):
kind way. And there are othersthat get so resentful and the bitter.
And I think what we see herenow in our country is a lot
of that going on. Whereas changesoccurring, we're seeing a lot of anger,
a lot of bitterness and so forth. And so I'm fascinated. Now
your book is called Dancing with Disruption, right, okay, and certainly we
(05:48):
are experiencing disruption. So I amreally curious. Let's talk about that a
little bit, and how do youlook at it and how do we help
people that are experiencing change in theirlife, which all of us are.
There's none of us will ever gothrough life without having a number of changes.
(06:11):
And the response that we give tothose changes either affects us in a
very positive, happy way or itcan be very destructive. So I'm really
curious about the book and what's itabout, and so on and so forth.
Yes, and so that's really alovely set up to the conversation to
say, to observe that there arethose that respond with great kindness and compassion
(06:35):
and others who are resentful to momentsof change. And I want to talk
about three different terms, maybe asa start to this conversation, Right.
The first is disruption, because,as you mentioned, it's everywhere, right,
we almost can't go through a daywithout encountering some kind of disruption.
And the ones that I'm most interestedin the work that I do are disruptions
(06:57):
that really go beyond the inevitable hiccupsin our day. Right. You know,
we're on our way to the grocerystore to the office and there's a
traffic jam, and you know,for whatever reason, our schedule gets thrown
up in the air. Right,Those disruptions occur all the time, but
those aren't really the ones that piquemy interests. The ones that I invite
all of us to talk about inthe next few minutes are what I call
(07:19):
gateway disruptions, and those are theones that challenge are thinking about who we
are right our self concept and oftentimeswe experience that in a number of ways,
like oftentimes we'll get some kind ofrecognition that our normal level of functioning
has somehow gone out the window.Right. You know, We're used to,
(07:40):
you know, doing all sorts ofthings in a day, but all
of a sudden, we can't seemto get through the day, or our
ability to do things that we've alwaysdone seems to be completely corrupted. It's
like what's happening? And another waywe get we often get to it is
when we when we really struggle andsay, well, wait a minute,
we have some kind of realization likewait a minute, this isn't who I
am, this is an how Ibehave right, you know. So these
(08:01):
gayway disruptions are ones that really challengeare thinking about who we are or how
we make meaning in the world.And they can they can come at us
from all sorts of ways, right. They can be planful things like a
retirement or a marriage or the welcomingof another child, or they can be
unexpected things like you know, allof a sudden a health crisis or um,
(08:22):
you know, a job loss ora big mergert at a company that
you know, changes our entire outlookof what our employment might be like.
So there's all sorts of initiating circumstancesthat can kind of deposited at these moments
of disruption. But the ones thatI think are so interesting and help us
really understand kind of this change thatyou reference in a different way is are
(08:45):
these are these um these ones thatare kind of very meaningful in terms of
their impact on who we are andhow we our mental model that we use
to kind of think about ourselves inthe world we inhabit well. And I
think, you know, I thinkabout COVID and you know, the pandemic
and literally when that occurred, it'sinteresting to see, at least as I've
(09:09):
observed it, how the overall cultureof our community in the US changed,
and probably all over the world.I'm just aware here, but it's fascinating
that there was that major change anddisruption in all of our lives to where
we had to be at home andyou know, on and on and on
(09:30):
and on, and it appears,I don't know what your observation has been
that it appears to me like thathas created a storm of challenges that we
never really had experienced before. It'sinteresting, I agree with you. And
the thing that I find most interestingis it's I look at it. While
it was massive and it was meaningfulfor so many of us, I don't
(09:54):
think anyone escaped the impact of it. Obviously, it hurts some pretty significantly.
They lost loved ones there there,you know, their ability to earn
income was disrupted all that, Butit has started a cascade of other right,
we mark that point as a cascadeof so many others. You know,
now we have technology like AI that'sthat's undoing our workplaces or changing how
(10:18):
we think about careers or employment.We have you know, our longevity is
changing, so the profile of howlong we work. Like, there's so
many societal, environmental, so manythings happening. So the rate of disruption
seems to be accelerating, doctor dougAnd and I think that that's what brings
me to this this topic so sopassionately, like we really need to educate
(10:43):
each other on how to navigate thesetimes, because it isn't the exception anymore,
right, it is it is thecommon experience that we will go through
multiple disruptions in our lives. Andtoo often, what I observed in my
research is without education on what's happening, too often people stall, disengage,
(11:03):
or retreat at these moments instead ofkind of taking advantage of some beautiful opportunities
that are kind of in the mistwhen these things occur. Yes, and
oh my goodness, you know oneof some interesting interviews that I've done that
have just created such curiosity with meas this concept of perception, and you
(11:24):
know, I've got a couple ofbrothers that are attorneys, and as interesting
as we've talked and what happens tobe a personal entry attorney and talking about
how when an accident occurs, sayin an intersection, and you may have
four to five witnesses, every oneof them has a different story and why.
And of course it's kind of boilingdown now to perception of what we
(11:48):
whatever we observe, we create aperception for ourselves based on all sorts of
beliefs and everything else that has goneon. Do you find that that's part
of the challenge is that the perceptionof what's occurring is literally creating the lives
that we're experiencing. It's such aninteresting conversation you bring up, you know,
(12:11):
because yes, every time we respond, we're responding with the sum total
of our experience, right, thebeliefs we have, and every experience you
know, it can be from whereyou were in grammar school, or where
you lived when you were eighteen,or your early career, can be anything.
But every time we respond to something, how we see is influenced by
(12:31):
the sum total of that experience,right. So it's really fascinating. And
what I found in my work isthat there are two terms that we interchange
in this notion of perception that actuallymean very different things when we go through
these periods of disruption. And thosetwo words are change and transition. And
it might be important to think aboutthose now because I think it might add
(12:54):
something to the conversation. If you'reokay, I'll talk a little old please,
Absolutely, I think about be agood foundation. So it's interesting,
you know, Um, we wethink about change in our societies, you
know, this heavy, hard thing, you know, gut wrenching, Oh
my goodness, change. Um,but it's interesting that when we are in
the face of a disruption, changesare all about making alterations or variations on
(13:18):
a fixed self concept or a fixedlike mental model. Right, So that
we we are we are pursuing kindof a known outcome. We can articulate
what we want, and we're makingalterations or variations, but our self concept
is intact. So let's just say, you know, easy conversation will say,
oh, perhaps I was a UMan employee at Bank of America UM
(13:43):
and you know, for whatever reason, my I got I lost my job
and I'm going to go get ayou know, a new job at TD
Bank or or you know um uh, you know Santander or some of the
other ones you know. UM.Ultimately, at those moments, we're making
changes that are alterations or variations.But how we think about ourselves is intact.
(14:03):
It's static, And that's very differentfrom a transition, right because in
transition we welcome instability for a timeabout how we think about ourselves. Right,
Because what's happening in transitions is there'stypically a shift in what holds value
and meaning to us, and asa result, we're re examining the assumptions
(14:26):
upon which we anchor our self concept. Right, So when we respond with
change, we're really reinforcing kind ofa static mental model. But when we
explore transition, we're willing to kindof re examine, not necessarily kind of
throw out our early thinking and replacewith new, but we're we're willing to
think around things aren't static and fixed. We're willing to kind of be open
(14:52):
minded and go beyond just alterations orvariations on something known and welcome new and
potentially even let go of some ofthe assumptions we might have held that we
might have now realized are beyond theiruseful life. And so this notion of
these two differences is pretty compelling whenwe think about how we respond to the
(15:13):
current moment. Because there are thosewho are very fixed and say, oh
my goodness, there's absolutely no wayto think differently about this, and they're
making variations but no movement. Andthere are others who say, you know,
well, well maybe it's time torethink. You know, I don't
know whether we should drive, youknow, combustion engine cars, okay,
And we're willing to kind of thinkabout what that means. And that's when
(15:37):
we when we look at transitions.And so transitions are all about these opportunities
to re examine what holds value andmeaning to us. And and usually what
that means is that is a gatewayfor a very transformative growth cycle. And
that's the thing that fascinates me somuch about this work, doctor Doug,
(15:58):
because you know, as I lookat this this the major changes that are
going on around us, right,You've mentioned so many of them, you
know, the post pandemic, youknow, the economic changes, the technology
changes. There are some of uswho will come to those moments and say,
nope, change, there's really nothing. You know, I'll make some
alterations, variations, but everything's prettyfixed. And there are others who will
(16:19):
respond and say, you know what, maybe this is a good time to
re examine some of our assumptions.And and what's interesting is that those who
do typically begin a pretty expansive pathof turning up the volume on their own
voices and m and that has incredible, incredible outcomes. So let me start
(16:41):
there. And it's really interesting,you know, as you talk about it,
I think about this concept of change. So many people resist change,
and as you say, it reallygoes to this concept that we need to
be right. You know, everyone, everyone needs to be right, and
all of a sudden, if changesoccurring, but you know what, we're
(17:04):
not going to allow ourselves to change. But as we see that, as
we resist change, what I seehappening, and I really love getting into
the whole level of emotional scale andso on and so forth, what I
see happening is all of a sudden, when we're resisting change, all of
a sudden, the resentment comes in, the anger comes in, all of
those types of things come in.Whereas if we're I remember, I think
(17:30):
Buddha, whether I love all variousreligions, but I think Buddha was the
one that said that as we experience, as we look at something in our
lives that we think was suffering orsomething very not pleasant, we can either
look at that in a negative way, or we can be grateful for whatever
(17:51):
lessons and look for the lessons thatwe can learn from that. And in
some ways, that's exactly what Ithink you're saying, is we can either
resist change or we can create thatcuriosity within us to say, Okay,
this transitioning is occurring, let meapply some curiosity to it, let me
(18:11):
apply some gratitude to it, andlet me see what can I learn what
new adventure again? As I wentto school. One of the things that
when I was back at business school, one of the things that was said
was, you know, as weas we played different games in our lives,
and so you know, obviously youplayed a big game corporately. Now
(18:33):
you've moved into a new game.And I think that all of us,
once we reach a certain point,realized that you know, alright, I've
achieved whatever that was, It's timeto move on to a new game.
And that can be very difficult forpeople. Well, you know, it
really can. And I've learned somuch from doing the research. You know,
I sat down with hundreds of peopleand just listened about their stories of
(18:55):
how they make these shifts that you'redescribing. And a couple of things I
took away from the one is ourassumption about um age is um is open
for debate because you can be twentytwo or seventy two and choose transition or
you can never choose it, right, you know, it really is.
(19:15):
It is really fascinating that, youknow, um, I'm grateful that I
found this practice, but it wasit was by chance, and and like
you said, it was because Iwas curious, like I couldn't reconcile the
answers I was getting from other people. I'm like, wait a minute,
this makes no sense, and andand so there is this curiosity. But
(19:37):
it can happen at any time inour lives. And and you know,
some of us are are um.You know, the circumstances of our lives
bring us to these moments of disruptionearly. Right, Sometimes we're twenty two
or you know, thirty two,and we get to these places where we're
asked to make a choice. Andand others go through life and you know,
there's sixty seven before they're being askedto make it right. So I
(20:00):
just want to honor the fact thatsome of your listeners may be at different
life stages and find themselves at thismoment. And then the other thing I'll
say is what I found stunning whenI did the research is that when we're
willing to open ourselves up to thepossibility that our self concept is growing,
right, that it's not fixed.In fact, it's growing, our emotions
(20:23):
mobilize to keep us safe. Right, Our emotions fire to say, oh
my goodness, Linda, I'm goingto staple your feet to the floor because
they read movement in our self conceptas unsafe and so all of a sudden,
we need new techniques to try todiffuse the power of an emotion over
(20:45):
us so that we can continue toapply our curiosity to what this all might
mean. And a good part aboutthe book that I write wrote has a
technique that you know, I trainlots of coaches on. I mean,
that's what my businesses is to train, which is an hr people and social
workers on how to use these techniques. And it is fascinating because with it
(21:07):
to your point about learning, Ibelieve you can change the profile of an
emotion from being an obstacle to beingan oracle to being a site of learning
for us that we can use toreally, you know, inspire and support
our growth. Well, and youknow you talk about those very specific items
(21:29):
that you talk about. In fact, you've got a reframing technique called hail
from what I've read, Can youexplain what that is to the audience?
And then I'd love for you toshare some stories of clients that you've had
to see the transition that's occurred intheir lives. Sure, absolutely, thank
you. I'd love to talk aboutall of that. But but hal is
a four step pneumonic meaning. Eachof the letters in the word hail h
(21:55):
ai l stands for a different activitywe do to reframe emotion. And you
know, the word reframe is kindof one of those big words and you
know overuse probably, So let medescribe what I mean. And it goes
to your earlier comment of perspective.Right. It's as if you and I
stepped outside and I said, okay, doctor Doug, I want you to
draw this skyscraper that's right in frontof us, and you kind of get
(22:15):
to work and you do your thing, and then I say, okay,
now that you're done, come,come, come, and we go across
the street and we ride up inthe elevator to an adjacent building. We
go to the roof, and onthe roof, I say, okay,
doctor Doug, now I want youto draw that same skyscraper, right,
but you have an entirely different perspectiveon that skyscraper. Right. So it's
fixed. Right, It's an itemthat's fixed, but our ability to look
(22:37):
at it to see it changes radically. And that's what this technique hail helps
us do. It helps us walkthrough an emotion, so that emotion like
anxiety or regret or anger or fearor self doubt or perfectionism, that we
can take that emotion and diffuse itsour over us so that we see it
(23:00):
from a different angle, and allof a sudden we're able to ask new
questions of ourselves. And and that'sreally the beauty, right is it allows
us to kind of break away fromyou know, I'm you know, I'm
I'm I'm racked with anxiety, I'mfrozen to I'm feeling anxious right now and
I'm thinking I'm going to do somethingelse tomorrow right that, you know,
(23:22):
it frees us up, and it'sum, you know, it's it's been
an absolute, you know, gamechanger to tease you to people, it's
really it's really been quite quite extraordinary. Well it's interesting because you know,
again, as we talked about alot of who what we experience has to
do with our life and our childhoodand all of that. Growing up,
(23:44):
I've gotten very interested in looking atpersonality evaluations, and the one that I
have adopted that I just love goesin and not only talks about the personality
and are the right brain, leftbrain introvert, extrovert and all that gets
into value us and all those typesof things. But one of the things
that it talks about that was justfascinating to me was what it is based
(24:06):
on their personality? What is theirgreatest fear? And so interestingly, you
know, for some it's being criticized. For others, it's losing relationships.
For others, it's not having friends. For others, it's you know,
being taking advantage of There are thosethings. But as I've looked at that
and worked with a few people onthat, it's like, I don't believe
(24:30):
anything is innate. I think someof that is there, But the reality
is, once you understand that,then how do you change that so that
you're not affected by that innate fearof whatever it happens to be based on
your personality? And so as youtalk about Hale, I'm waiting for you
to explain what those are. Yes, I will and let me and I
(24:52):
love that. You know, Iagree. There are lots of personality techniques
out there to assess, but itsounds like you've found one that really works
for you. And there are somany um but Hale stands for h A
I L. And the first stepis honor. The second is ask.
The third is influence in the fourthis learned Right. So we we take
(25:15):
a moment of upheaval in our lives, We'll say, you know, you
know, there's one story in thebook that I tell about me, and
it's this moment where I'm at ameeting and I'm responsible for a large part
of the deliverable and there's an antagonisticpeer of mine who's really given me a
hard time. And so my firststep is honor right, which is to
(25:37):
say, Okay, what emotions amI feeling in this moment? Right?
And and the emotions that I wasfeeling that moment was anger, right,
that I wasn't being I wasn't beingacknowledged. Right. He would name everybody
else in the room, but henever said my name once right, always
like he just completely blew by me. And and and so the first step
(25:59):
asked access to do something, whichis to actually validate by giving space and
time to the emotions we feel andby naming. Just the naming step alone
can slow down the pattern that theemotion is, can you know, comfortable
behaving within our world? Right?It's really slows that down. So naming
is important. The second step askis really asking us to think about why
(26:26):
that emotion matters in our experience?Right, So why would I get angry?
Right? Why would I get angryin that moment? And I have
to say, like, I'm notsomeone you know, we've got in a
little sense for who I am.I'm not someone who carries anger. Right.
That is very That's a very unusualemotion for me. Right, So
I had to ask repeatedly, youknow, why is it that that one
is firing for me? And ultimately, in asking I realized that that it
(26:52):
was all about being seen or beingunseen. Right. This notion of somebody
looking through me and not recognizing andI was in the room and that I
had a contribution to make was atrigger. Right. It was a trip
wire for me, right, sendingme kind of up and on, you
know, up the wall down theother side. Like it was really you
know, it was throwing me offbalance so much so that at one point
(27:14):
during the meeting, I barked atthis guy, you know, I said
something very curt and everyone looked like, Linda, what's going on? What's
the matter with you? Right,Because they didn't see the rest of the
room. It was invisible to theroom. How grating. This man was
on me because I was the onlyone experiencing this unseen thing. My peers
that were also at the table hadno idea. Right, But and yet
(27:36):
I behaved in a way that wasquite unique and based on my experience.
So the second step is we ask, we ask why it makes sense in
our experience. The third step iswe recognize how it influences us. Right,
So the influence for me was prettyclear. I acted improperly. Right,
I barked at somebody in a waythat was unprofessional. Right, shouldn't
(27:57):
have done it. Reality is asI did. But I was able to
see how it influenced me. Andthe last question we ask is what we
might learn from it? And ultimatelythat is an incredibly personal response, right,
because for me, it underscored howimportant it is for me to be
(28:18):
in a place where, in factI am seen, right, where somebody
acknowledges, you know, not necessarilythey see me like Okay, I'm sitting
here and I have glasses and Ihave you know, white airrings on.
It is my participation acknowledged in someway. And I think that that again,
the technique isn't intended to give usan answer like oh, my emotion
(28:41):
of anger is right or wrong.It has nothing to do with that.
It invites me to ask a newset of questions so that I can keep
going. And ultimately, what itdid in that situation is it invited me
to participate in a different way.It wasn't about what Peter, who was
my peer, what Peter was doing. It was about my voice in my
active participation in that meeting, youknow, so much so that once I
(29:03):
did Hale, I did it actuallyat a break and I tell the story
in the book. Once I wentback into that room, I participated in
an entirely different way, so muchso that the person who was holding the
meeting at the end of the daypulled me aside and said, Wow,
we are so happy you were here. You really made a difference. And
so I say that because it isso easy for us to be just locked
(29:25):
in the anger and stay in angerand not move beyond it. And so
what Hale tries to do is givea relatively accessible, repeatable technique that you
can use in the moment or inself reflection on something that happened earlier,
but help you take anger and say, boof, I'm letting go of that,
and it's instructing me not only tolet go, but to act in
(29:48):
a way that is so much alignedwith who I am and the values and
meaning that I want to contribute inthe world. So I love the tool.
It's been tested with loads and loadsof groups. It's incredibly powerful,
and it's something that you know thatI do a lot of work with well.
And as you described that, Ithink of, you know, one
of the things I've been looking atis and I kind of phrase some of
(30:11):
this is be aware, be willingor courageous, and then be happy.
And really what you're talking about isthis awareness of being able to go,
holy cow, this is the emotionthat I just brought up within myself.
Why and then also understanding that ithas nothing to do you know, his
(30:36):
treatment of you really has nothing todo with you. It has everything to
do with him. And when peoplecan start to understand that concept of you
know, what if someone is beingunkind, rather than taking that personally that
I'm not good enough or what didI do and so on and so forth,
(30:56):
and go, oh, I wonderwhat they're experiencing that they would behave
that way. And So I lovewhat you talk about because it's really this
concept of becoming aware, which isnot easy for everyone. You know,
when when when someone you know hasan event occurred and it stirs up anger,
(31:17):
resentment, or frustration or fear orwhatever that is. I think oftentimes
the majority of people are not awarethat this is merely an emotion and that
that event has no emotion attached toit. It's just that we attach an
emotion to whatever event occurred. Howdo you help people as you're working with
(31:41):
people, how do you help themto get to the point where they're able
to be aware, where they're ableto use that process of hail and actually
change their direction based on what hasoccurred. So I think there's two There's
two things we do right. Oneis we educate them right. So we
(32:02):
first educate them on some of theroles that these emotions play, what it
means in terms of change and transition, and how we commonly encounter this right,
so that we give them a newcontext so that they can place their
experience of an emotion in a broaderset of understanding. That's the first thing
we do right. Because you know, knowledge is power, right, And
(32:23):
I don't mean that like beat yourchest power, right, but understanding really
helps us broaden our toolkit of howwe can respond. So the first thing
is is to educate and help peoplesay, wait a minute, there is
this way to maybe not just holdon to that anger, but to maybe
be different about it. And thesecond is we teach them techniques, like
(32:45):
we teach people how we go throughit repeatedly with people so that they can
really understand it in a different way. Like there was this one lady who
recently went through the training who wasa team leader in an organization and that
was a new thing for her,but she also then had to participate in
(33:07):
more senior level staff meetings, andshe came into one of the one of
the events and she said, Oh, my goodness, I regret that I
said this, Like I really regretit. I'm really having a hard time
because I did this and this andthis, and I really regret it.
And it was fascinating to listen becauseultimately where we got her after she went
through the technique was not releasing regret, but understanding it in a different way
(33:30):
that in fact, it wasn't thatshe made some grave error, but that
it was her response to the factthat she was stepping out. She was
turning up her own voice in away that was unfamiliar, and the regret
was this response to say, hey, don't you want to come back to
this other side where it's a littlemore safe? Do you really want to
(33:51):
step over there? And so itwas really very interesting how how tools like
Hale can really broaden our ability tobe successful in whatever context we're in,
because it helps us take this experienceof an emotion like regret, regret or
anger and experience it in an entirelydifferent way and in fact use it as
(34:14):
a way to move forward in away that's so much more aligned with the
contribution that we have to add.And whether that contribution is at kitchen table,
a corporate boardroom, in a communitysetting, it doesn't matter. It's
the same dynamic that really is opento people, which is these these periods
(34:34):
of disruption in our lives I nowunderstand as an invitation to turn up the
volume on our own voices. Andwhen I say voice, it's not necessarily
what you hear as I speak.It's it's really the ability to let others
experience the gifts that we have andwhat holds value and meaning to us in
a way that we can contribute,you know, that's in alignment with that,
(34:54):
and that is the opportunity. Well, and one of the things that
you said that I found fascinating,and this is where my question is going
to go too. You know,you talked about your experience, You went
outside, you kind of let goof those emotions and came back in and
just changed your approach. All right, it's the letting go. It's the
(35:15):
letting go. How do you helppeople to let go of those emotions and
those triggers that something happens and theyrespond in a negative way and at least
if they are aware enough and followingthat hail, they recognize that, Okay,
this is an emotion that is controllingmy life, my perception. But
(35:36):
how do you help them to letit go? You know? I mean,
you know there's the NLP, there'sthe meditation, there's all of those
types of things that everyone talks about. What has been your experience in successfully
helping people to let go of thosenegative emotions? Well? I wish there
was like one quick flash in thepan, right, But I can tell
(35:58):
you that I have seen repeatedly aseries of exercises which are highlighted in the
book, Right, I assume thatthe book is for people who need to
work through this on their own,and that there may be resources like coaches
or advisors and our friends who canhelp them. But I give them all
the tools they need. And thereare series of activities from learning about choice
and what it means to make achoice, to re setting expectations that we
(36:22):
hold for ourselves, or reimagining ouridentity or reconstituting connections. All of those
are exercises that contribute to this abilityto respond differently, and all of those
are highlighted in the book. Sowhen I say exercises, they're really a
series of questions that can be donein a self reflection way, whether you
(36:44):
write it out or you hit audiorecord on your phone, however it is.
But they allow people to really explorethe concept of the book in their
own life in this guided way.And then each of the exercises also feature
an example of somebody in the researchwho's gone through this exact exercise. So
those are in every chapter. Andand you know, I have to say,
(37:06):
like, there was one woman,and this story might might help us
put a fine point on your question. Right, there was one woman,
Lakshmi, and she was a verydynamic young woman, and she was in
her early thirties and she had beenin an MD PhD program at a big
ten university and working, working veryvery hard at this notion of trying to
become a researcher in a in aplace that she she had thought for many
(37:30):
years was a great place for her. And she came into the interview and
she said, you know, Irealized that this isn't who I want to
be. And she said it's crushing, because she said, you know,
from my whole life, ever sinceI was like a young teenager, this
was the path I was on.And she said, I never even dreamed
outside of this, right, Sothere's there are some expressions of who we
(37:52):
are thinking about who we are thatyou know, our sacrosanct right that that
we we have no experience beyond.And so for her, you know,
this concept, she said, youknow, it's crushing that this was terrifying.
You know that she was incredibly selfaware, I think, frankly in
hindsight. She said, you know, I always thought that, you know,
(38:13):
the reason people liked me was becauseI was academic and that's what I
had to offer. And I didn'tknow who I was going to be if
I stepped away from that. Andyet the reason why she was kind of
leaning in that direction was because shehad suffered a series of debilitating headaches,
like she just it was shutting herdown, and and because she was so
(38:34):
kind of physically and mentally self aware. She said, you know, I
kept asking myself, what does mybody know that I don't know yet?
Right it's telling me something like there'ssomething going on. So, you know,
she said, it was such aperiod of intense pain, you know,
physical pain that that you know,I really needed techniques. And so
we began this process of looking throughthe expectations she carried and the emotions that
(38:58):
fired for her and all too shebegan a process that is very It's repeated
everywhere in the research that I've done, which is people don't it's not like
one swing of the bat and weleave the md PhD program in whallah,
We're in a new place where we'reyou know, we're in a happy,
calm place. It's a series ofsmall steps that allow us to kind of
(39:22):
try and then validate this new senseof self and ultimately Lakshmi began to get
involved in some social services related tohealthcare, but but really in a community
base, not in an academic medicalcenter. And she said, you know,
I'm so astonished because my peers nowdescribe me as a good leader and
(39:47):
and funny, she said, youknow, I'm astonished because these were never
things that I thought of from myself. And so she went from a place
of pain and not knowing through aseries of steps that led her to this
place of kind of comfort and curiositythat allowed her to know herself in an
(40:09):
entirely new way. And I thinkthat, you know, as we turn
with some with some tools, right, tools like you've mentioned some, I've
certainly done research and offer some wewhat we offer ourselves is a new way
of understanding ourselves and the world weinhabit. And that is described by nearly
(40:31):
everyone in my research as enlivening andhopeful and optimistic and freeing. And so
I think that that's something that I'mforever interested in. That if we can
have people who start with being stalled, disengage or retreating in the face of
disruption and get them to a placethat in fact is enlivening and opening and
(40:54):
expansive, then I'm all in right, So I spend most of my day
is treat teaching people about this,educating them on this landscape, and giving
them the tools to explore it intheir own way. Well, and that's
so wonderful. And one of thethings you say, which I find so
fascinating is, you know, oneof the things that I've always talked about,
(41:15):
and I've learned this from other peoplewho have Readen books and so forth,
is look at your life. Isit what you want? And if
it's not what you want, thenwe need to go back and look at
what are those belief systems that arecreating the expectations and the perception of our
lives that we don't like. Andyou know, how do we become aware?
(41:38):
I guess the first step that comesto my mind is if you're experiencing
anxiety, if you're experiencing anger,if you're experiencing one of those negative lower
emotions in your life, wake upand realize that you know what, this
is not your life. You haveput yourself in a situation where you're experience
(42:00):
in life that's not elevating for you. And so if you can be aware
now you apply the hail or whateverit happens to be to really change that
around and to let go of someof these things, right, And I
don't want to to diminish how terrifyingthose moments are, right, I know.
I remember I was. I didthis training for nonprofit leaders in Chicago
(42:22):
not too long ago, and twowomen came up to me right after the
end of it was like all dayseminar. They came running up and one
lady was in tears and she saidto me, you know, I can
hear my voice, it's screaming atme, but I'm terrified to move.
Right in her mind, the consequencesof action were so scary. It was
(42:43):
if she froze, right. Sheshe knew it what it was she needed
to do, but to do itwas was beyond compare for her, and
the lady that was standing next toher was being silly. She put her
hand above her eyes and she like, you know, started looking like a
seafair looking at it distant land,and she said, you know, boys,
I haven't seen my voice in thirtyyears. Right, So I think
(43:06):
that we have to honor the factthat we all arrive at these moments with
a varying level of connectedness to towho we are, right, you know,
we we adopt, you know,provisional identities, We get used to,
you know, behaving in a certainway, We have expectations from those
around us, and all of thatkind of creates this soup that we have
(43:30):
to begin by getting getting aware ofwhat's in the soup. And for some
that's a five minute activities. Forsome it's a decade activity. And and
I don't want to diminish how frighteningit can be. So Hail is particularly
designed to um, you know,calm down the terror and allow us to
ask a new question, because ultimatelyto get to get some traction here,
(43:52):
we need to really bring new questionsto ourselves. Because you know, the
lady that's terrified and froze, andyou know, what is it in her
experience that is so scary about acting? Or you know, a lot of
people, particularly people who come tothese moments of disruption, you know,
midlife, late in life, sayyou know, I have so many responsibilities.
(44:14):
This is delusional. I can donothing. And I think it's it's
particularly those people that I want toeducate because actually we have a lot more
degrees of freedom right where we sitthan we realize. Well, and you
know, you say something that Ithink is so important for people to understand.
You know, I have a daughterthat was going towards her PhD in
(44:37):
sociology, and all of a sudden, as she was working on her master's
degree and she was on a realfast line to get that PhD, but
she's calling her means and Dad,and you know, she's experiencing anxiety.
She's experiencing some of these frustrations.And it's like, I was so grateful
that she could call me and thatI had the ability to, rather than
(45:01):
join in her with her anxiety,say hey, sweetie, let's stop for
a minute and let's look at thisnow. She finally decided to finish with
her masters and move on to ajob. She's very happy at what she's
doing now, which really has nota lot to do with her degree,
but in some senses, her degreetrained her to be better at what she's
(45:22):
doing. But a friend, Iremember just the other day, I was
going through some things and I'm thinking, oh, man, how am I
going to do this? And I'mthinking, you know what, I have
two people I can call. AndI did, and I called and I
said, hey, here's what I'mgoing through. And they listened and we
talked a little bit in When itwas all said and done, it's like,
I feel so much better. AndI think for the audience it's important
(45:45):
to understand that, you know what, not only can we experience these change
and transitions in our own lives,but we can be that person to be
able to help someone else who isexperiencing that if we won't into the old
adage of anger and frustration and expectationand rather, you know, what you're
(46:06):
talking about is just being aware andlet's talk about that and let's see what's
going on. So I think thisconcept of being able to make a difference
in someone's life and just a smallway by just being there for people is
so important. Of course you're doingit at a big level, which is
just amazing. Well, I appreciatethe very kind words, but I think
(46:28):
it's you're underscoring a very important partof being able to successfully navigate periods in
our life where we're undergoing massive shifts, and that is the connections we have
around us, right, and wecan serve as a connection for someone else
and as you say, be supportive. And there's two things I want to
(46:49):
just mention under this umbrella of connections. Right. One is very often people
have this assumption that if they're goingthrough a period of transition that they have
to leave things like, oh,I'm leaving a relationship where I'm leaving a
job, or I'm leaving this andand in fact, there's nothing that says,
nothing in the research says we haveto leave the support systems we already
(47:09):
have. We have to realize isthat very often the people around us have
a vested interest in us staying thesame, right, and so we just
need to be aware of that.We don't We're not going to throw them
under the bus. We're not goingto say I can't talk to you anymore.
We're not gonna do any of that. But we just need to bring
our awareness that the response we getfrom those around us may be informed by
(47:32):
the fact that their need is significantfor us to stay the same. Number
one and number two, the bestpeople we can put around us, and
certainly it seems like you can servethis way for your daughter, is that
the best thing we can do isask why not instead of why? Right?
You know, when people come andsay, well, you know,
(47:52):
I think I was going to dothis and this, and you know,
and and stays saying, well,why would you want to do that?
And our best, best next questionwe can ask is well, why wouldn't
you? Why not do that?Why not? Why not? And I
think it's a subtle It's one word. We're asking to a question, and
all of a sudden, if wesay why not, I'm communicating to doctor
(48:15):
Doug that I believe in you right, that you have that possibility within your
reach, and that kind of affirmationis irreplaceable at times of major shifts.
Absolutely, And I love that.You know, I've always used you know,
it's time for a new adventure,be courageous, it's time for a
new adventure. But I love thatconcept. Why not? And guess what?
(48:37):
We could go on for hours,but we're done. Oh my goodness,
what a what a pleasure to haveyou on the show. This is
just amazing. Well, it's beenmy absolute pleasure. Thank you for giving
the opportunity to talk with you andto talk with your listeners. It's an
absolute delight. And thank you foryour interest in this topic. Oh you.
(48:59):
And how do people find your book? It's called Dancing with Disruption?
How do they find it? Yes? Well I have it right over my
shoulder. Right. So it isDancing with Disruption, and it's available everywhere
books are sold. It's available inaudiobook, electronic versions, and print copies,
and it's also available through most publiclibraries. And if you have questions
(49:19):
or things you want to learn moreabout, LinkedIn is the best way to
find me, or just at mywebsite, which is Linda Rosetti dot com.
Okay, Linda, thank you somuch for me and on the show,
and folks, thanks for listening.I hope you gained some insights here
and some valuable diamonds that can makea difference in your life. Please join
us again and once again, Lenna, have a wonderful week, and thank
(49:40):
you and bless you for what you'redoing for others. Thank you very much.
It's been a great honor to talkwith you. All right, folks,
have a great week and we lookforward to having you join us again soon
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