John MacDonald: Less government ministers and departments? Easier said than done

Isn’t David Seymour the guy who got himself into government at the last election and then went and set up a new government department?

But, despite the irony, I agree with him that we need fewer government departments and fewer Cabinet ministers.

Previously, the ACT leader has described the public sector as "a big, complicated bureaucratic beast".

There are the numbers to back that up. We have 82 cabinet portfolios, 28 ministers and 41 separate government departments and agencies.

David Seymour thinks that’s crazy and says ACT will campaign in this year’s election on changing that. And, instead of having 41 government departments and agencies, he wants us to have no more than 30.

As for cabinet ministers - at the moment there are 28, David Seymour thinks we need no more than 20.

I remember Oliver Hartwich from the NZ Initiative think tank saying last year that we could get away with having as few as 15 cabinet ministers, instead of the 28 we have at the moment.

But he thought that 20 was more realistic.

As for government departments, they are monsters. They operate in silos. They compete with each other for funding. They don’t talk to each other. That’s why there’s so much duplication.

For example, do we need a Ministry of Education and an Education Review Office? I don’t think so.

Do we need a Ministry of Justice and a Department of Corrections? Possibly not.

As for cabinet positions, do we need a mental health minister? Could that all be part of the health minister’s job?

And don’t get me started on things like the Minister for the South Island or the Minister for Auckland that Labour brought in.

So, I’m with David Seymour and I think we could do with fewer government departments and agencies.

But it will never happen.

Talking about having less government departments and less cabinet ministers is easy and politicians talk about it because they know it tends to go down well with people.

But it will never happen. Because, whether people admit it or not, they still expect the government and its departments to fix everything.

And, unless that changes, the government isn’t going to get any smaller. And its list of departments isn’t going to get any shorter.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Canterbury Mornings podcast with John McDonald
from Newstalk ZB Question.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
I got a question. We'll start the week with the question. Question.
Isn't David Seymour the guy who got himself into government
at the last election and then went about setting up
a new government department. That's him, The same guy who's
saying now we need less government departments. That's him. The

(00:38):
Ministry for Regulation is the outfit he set up, or
the Ministry for Red Tape as some people call it,
so kind of ironic, don't you think for him to
be banging on about having too many? Nevertheless, that's what
he did in his State of the Nation speech yesterday
in christ Church. And look, despite the irony he's bang on,

(00:58):
he's right. Previously, the ACT leader has described the public
sector as quote a big, complicated, bureaucratic beast, and there
are the numbers to back that up. We have eighty
two cabinet portfolios, twenty eight cabinet ministers and forty one

(01:19):
separate government departments and agencies. And David Seymour he thinks
that's crazy. And he says that the ACT Party is
going to campaign in this year's election on changing that.
I like what he's saying, but good luck to him
what he wants. Instead of having forty one government departments
and agencies, he wants us to have no more than thirty.

(01:43):
As for cabinet ministers, at the moment, there are twenty
eight and David Seymour thinks we need no more than twenty.
I remember a guy from the New Zealand Initiative think
tank saying last year that we could get away with
having as few as fifteen cabinet ministers instead of twenty eight,
but he acknowledged that twenty was probably more realistic. And

(02:08):
this is how David Seamol puts it. He says, quite
the truth is we are over governed. He says, why
does such a small country have such a large government?
Started talking about Norway? He says, Norway similar size to
US governs, with twenty ministers across seventeen coherent ministries, each

(02:29):
clearly aligned to a broad policy domain. Talk about Norway
says the whole structure is set up to preserve itself.
As for the government departments, I've actually worked at a
few and you might of yourself, and they are monsters.

(02:52):
I mean they operate in silos. They compete with each
other for funding. They don't talk to each other, and
that that's insight, let alone between the departments themselves, and
that is why there is so much duplication. I mean examples,
do we need a Ministry of Education and an Education
Review Office? I don't think so. Do we need a

(03:13):
Ministry of Justice and a separate department of Corrections? Possibly not?
Do we need a Department of Conservation and a ministry
for the environment. What I mean as for cabinet positions,
do we need a mental health minister? Could? That will
be part of the health minister's job. And don't get

(03:34):
me started about things like the Minister for the South
Island or the Minister for Auckland that Labor brought in.
So look, I'm right with David Seymour and I think
we would all be winners with less cabinet ministers and
less government departments and agencies. But it will never happen.
Talking about having less government departments and less cabinet ministers,

(03:56):
that's the easy bit, and politicians talk about it because
they know it tends to go down with people. Go
down well with people, went down well with me. But
it will never happen because whether people admitted or not,
they still expect the government and its departments to fix everything.
We all do, don't we. And as long as we
have such high expectations and demands, the government isn't going

(04:19):
to get any smaller and their departments aren't going to
get any smaller or less either. But when do you
stand on this? Do we have too many cabinet ministers?
Do we have too many government departments?

Speaker 1 (04:31):
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