September 10, 2026 • 6 mins
The Ministry of Social Development wrongly cut financial assistance in over 30,000 cases, according to new reports.
A recent review has found several Winter Energy Payments, main benefits, and supplementary assistance were mistakenly paused - and the Ministry has since issued an apology.
Newstalk ZB senior political correspondent Barry Soper says Labour's Chris Hipkins has been quick to condemn this and says the MSD shouldn't take the blame for the Government's mistakes.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Barry Soper's with us. Hello, Barry.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Good afternoon, Heather.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Okay, so tell me what you think of the 30,000
beneficiaries and pensioners and veterans being docked their pay.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
It's extraordinary, isn't it? Well, how it came about was
the winter energy payment was incorrectly included in legislation that
was put through under urgency, and that required clients to
complete a form confirming their details to continue receiving the payment. Now,
if they didn't complete that form... then certain welfare payments
(00:31):
could be stopped. So that's what happened, basically. The MSD
chief executive, I know you've got her on, Debbie Power,
she fronted the media this afternoon and did what you'd
have to describe a maxima mea culpa.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I am accountable for the delivery of policy advice and
the implementation of policies for... on behalf of the government.
It is my accountability.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
We got it wrong.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
We are experienced in dealing with and implementing policies and
work programmes like this.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
We have got it wrong.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
In the report, it says that it's clear that we
don't have the ability under our legislation to pay compensation.
It requires us to remediate, and that's what we've done.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
So there'll be no compensation, obviously. And she who didn't
know the numbers in the House, of course, was... Louise Upston.
But not surprisingly, she wasn't available today, as you well know, Heather.
If you listen to the Prime Minister, that would appear
to be by design. Let the beneficiaries take the fall.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
MSD are going to talk to that this afternoon, I
think themselves. I heard them apologise, as they should have yesterday,
and I'm sorry as well for people that have been
impacted by that. But, you know, MSD's role, and we
have high expectations of them, is to respect all clients,
and they're often vulnerable New Zealanders. And the good news
is that 93% of all hardship applicants, I think, have
been approved in recent years, and that's a good thing.
(01:55):
But there's obviously technical issues that they need to talk to,
operational issues they need to talk to, and I know
they'll be doing that this afternoon.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Or maybe they should make their legislation a bit clearer.
But that's not where the blame should lie. If you
listen to Labour's Chris Hipkins, he's revelling in what he
says was squarely the Minister Louise Upston's mistake, and certainly
not the bureaucrats.
Speaker 5 (02:17):
This is a mistake that Louise Upston has made. This
law change was her law change. She was responsible for
getting this right. She pushed it through Parliament with no scrutiny.
As a result, a significant mistake was made. Christopher Luxon
should be holding her accountable for that. That is his
job as the Prime Minister. It's absolutely unacceptable that the
(02:39):
Minister who has made this mess is running away from scrutiny.
She should be fronting up. She should be apologising. She
should be genuine in that apology. And she should be
accepting responsibility for the fact that it was her law
change that created this fiasco.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Well.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
That's true. It was her law change, but maybe if
they'd read the law a bit more closely, we wouldn't
have had the botch-up that we've seen.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Who's they?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Well, the bureaucrats.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
But Barry, the law... did not exclude, like they followed
the law. She stuffed up the law.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Well, yes, but if they had filled out the forms,
they wouldn't have had their benefits docked. And that should
have been explained by the bureaucrats maybe to the beneficiaries.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
But the pensioners, right? So this affected pensioners.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yes, it did, yep.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
And it affected veterans. And every year they were supposed
to come back and reconfirm that they were pensioners and veterans.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Well, that's what the expectation clearly was.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yeah, because I don't know about you, but I've never
heard of a pensioner who's a pensioner who next year
is not a pensioner.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Oh, that's right.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Or a veteran who's suddenly unveterans.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
No, it was an absolute botch up.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
So this is a Louise mistake.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Why is she making Debbie Power take the fall for it?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Well, pretty obvious, isn't it? The election is less than
two months away.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
You reckon she's going to get away with this? This
is not fair. Like, I don't mind it when public servants.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Well, it's not fair on Debbie Power.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
No, I don't mind it when public servants are forced
to take the fall when they make mistakes. But when
a minister forces a public servant to take the fall
for a minister's mistake, that's not fair.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
No, no.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
No, it's not fair.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I mean, I wouldn't argue with that.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Okay, so she should front up.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Well, she should have fronted up, yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Waitangi Tribunal.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Well, you know, is the time nigh or not?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
No, not nigh.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
No, it's not. And, you know, it's quite extraordinary, really.
The first line in their press statement today said it all.
Act will complete the remaining historical treaty claims in the
Waitangi Tribunal's contemporary jurisdiction and wind it up once the
historical work is finished. Now, What does that mean? Historical work?
(04:43):
They could go on forever. And they're likely to, if
certainly acts to be taken at his word. Of course,
David Seymour fronted the policy today and said once the
claims are settled, the tribunal will have served its usefulness.
Speaker 6 (04:58):
The original need for the Waitangi Tribunal has evaporated as
our country has matured into a place with strong property rights,
the rule of law and restraints on the use of
military power. And there is no longer need to have
a parallel quasi-government authority. And that is why the ACT
Party announces that as part of our commitment to one
law for all and one future together, we will campaign
(05:21):
for the Waitangi Tribunal to finish the historic settlements that
were lodged before 2008 and then cease to operate.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Well, you know, the government's done a review of the
Waitangi Tribunal. It's on Tama Potaka's desk. Why haven't we
seen it yet? I mean, the review's been done. And
Winston Peters, of course, he wants the Waitangi Tribunal reformed,
not scrapped. So, you know, I think he's probably going
down that track because he doesn't really like David Seymour
(05:51):
very much.
Speaker 5 (05:52):
Oh, doesn't he?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Barry, thanks very much. Barry Soper, senior political correspondent, seven
away from five.
Speaker 5 (05:57):
For more from Heather Duplessy-Allen Drive, listen live to News
Talk ZB from 4 p.m.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Weekdays or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Barry Soper's with us. Hello, Barry.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Good afternoon, Heather.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Okay, so tell me what you think of the 30,000
beneficiaries and pensioners and veterans being docked their pay.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
It's extraordinary, isn't it? Well, how it came about was
the winter energy payment was incorrectly included in legislation that
was put through under urgency, and that required clients to
complete a form confirming their details to continue receiving the payment. Now,
if they didn't complete that form... then certain welfare payments
(00:31):
could be stopped. So that's what happened, basically. The MSD
chief executive, I know you've got her on, Debbie Power,
she fronted the media this afternoon and did what you'd
have to describe a maxima mea culpa.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I am accountable for the delivery of policy advice and
the implementation of policies for... on behalf of the government.
It is my accountability.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
We got it wrong.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
We are experienced in dealing with and implementing policies and
work programmes like this.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
We have got it wrong.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
In the report, it says that it's clear that we
don't have the ability under our legislation to pay compensation.
It requires us to remediate, and that's what we've done.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
So there'll be no compensation, obviously. And she who didn't
know the numbers in the House, of course, was... Louise Upston.
But not surprisingly, she wasn't available today, as you well know, Heather.
If you listen to the Prime Minister, that would appear
to be by design. Let the beneficiaries take the fall.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
MSD are going to talk to that this afternoon, I
think themselves. I heard them apologise, as they should have yesterday,
and I'm sorry as well for people that have been
impacted by that. But, you know, MSD's role, and we
have high expectations of them, is to respect all clients,
and they're often vulnerable New Zealanders. And the good news
is that 93% of all hardship applicants, I think, have
been approved in recent years, and that's a good thing.
(01:55):
But there's obviously technical issues that they need to talk to,
operational issues they need to talk to, and I know
they'll be doing that this afternoon.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Or maybe they should make their legislation a bit clearer.
But that's not where the blame should lie. If you
listen to Labour's Chris Hipkins, he's revelling in what he
says was squarely the Minister Louise Upston's mistake, and certainly
not the bureaucrats.
Speaker 5 (02:17):
This is a mistake that Louise Upston has made. This
law change was her law change. She was responsible for
getting this right. She pushed it through Parliament with no scrutiny.
As a result, a significant mistake was made. Christopher Luxon
should be holding her accountable for that. That is his
job as the Prime Minister. It's absolutely unacceptable that the
(02:39):
Minister who has made this mess is running away from scrutiny.
She should be fronting up. She should be apologising. She
should be genuine in that apology. And she should be
accepting responsibility for the fact that it was her law
change that created this fiasco.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Well.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
That's true. It was her law change, but maybe if
they'd read the law a bit more closely, we wouldn't
have had the botch-up that we've seen.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Who's they?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Well, the bureaucrats.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
But Barry, the law... did not exclude, like they followed
the law. She stuffed up the law.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Well, yes, but if they had filled out the forms,
they wouldn't have had their benefits docked. And that should
have been explained by the bureaucrats maybe to the beneficiaries.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
But the pensioners, right? So this affected pensioners.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yes, it did, yep.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
And it affected veterans. And every year they were supposed
to come back and reconfirm that they were pensioners and veterans.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Well, that's what the expectation clearly was.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yeah, because I don't know about you, but I've never
heard of a pensioner who's a pensioner who next year
is not a pensioner.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Oh, that's right.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Or a veteran who's suddenly unveterans.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
No, it was an absolute botch up.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
So this is a Louise mistake.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Why is she making Debbie Power take the fall for it?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Well, pretty obvious, isn't it? The election is less than
two months away.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
You reckon she's going to get away with this? This
is not fair. Like, I don't mind it when public servants.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Well, it's not fair on Debbie Power.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
No, I don't mind it when public servants are forced
to take the fall when they make mistakes. But when
a minister forces a public servant to take the fall
for a minister's mistake, that's not fair.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
No, no.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
No, it's not fair.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I mean, I wouldn't argue with that.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Okay, so she should front up.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Well, she should have fronted up, yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Waitangi Tribunal.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Well, you know, is the time nigh or not?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
No, not nigh.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
No, it's not. And, you know, it's quite extraordinary, really.
The first line in their press statement today said it all.
Act will complete the remaining historical treaty claims in the
Waitangi Tribunal's contemporary jurisdiction and wind it up once the
historical work is finished. Now, What does that mean? Historical work?
(04:43):
They could go on forever. And they're likely to, if
certainly acts to be taken at his word. Of course,
David Seymour fronted the policy today and said once the
claims are settled, the tribunal will have served its usefulness.
Speaker 6 (04:58):
The original need for the Waitangi Tribunal has evaporated as
our country has matured into a place with strong property rights,
the rule of law and restraints on the use of
military power. And there is no longer need to have
a parallel quasi-government authority. And that is why the ACT
Party announces that as part of our commitment to one
law for all and one future together, we will campaign
(05:21):
for the Waitangi Tribunal to finish the historic settlements that
were lodged before 2008 and then cease to operate.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Well, you know, the government's done a review of the
Waitangi Tribunal. It's on Tama Potaka's desk. Why haven't we
seen it yet? I mean, the review's been done. And
Winston Peters, of course, he wants the Waitangi Tribunal reformed,
not scrapped. So, you know, I think he's probably going
down that track because he doesn't really like David Seymour
(05:51):
very much.
Speaker 5 (05:52):
Oh, doesn't he?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Barry, thanks very much. Barry Soper, senior political correspondent, seven
away from five.
Speaker 5 (05:57):
For more from Heather Duplessy-Allen Drive, listen live to News
Talk ZB from 4 p.m.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Weekdays or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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