Brooke van Velden: Internal Affairs Minister on whether online gambling should support local community groups

SkyCity and the TAB have complained there won't be a level playing field when the new regulations for online gambling kick in.

The Government is set to auction off 15 online casino licences - and both local and international companies will be allowed to bid on the licences. 

Internal Affairs Minister Brooke van Velden says it's important proper regulations are put in place.

"We are enabling people to play safely in a regulated market - which is not the case at the moment. But we are also not trying to restrict it so much that we're not actually channelling people into that market."

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Right now, Sky City and the TAB. They are complaining
that there won't be a level playing field when this
new regulation for online gambling comes into effect. The government
is going to auction off fifteen licenses to run an
online casino in New Zealand, but both local and international
companies will be allowed to bid for the licenses. Here's

(00:21):
the problem, lot O pokeing machines and the TAB they
all have to donate a portion of the money that
they make to community groups, but there'll be no requirement
for the winners of these fifteen options to do that.
Brook van Velden is the Internal Affairs Minister and she's
with me tonight. Hey, Brook, Benet thing Ryan, thank you
for being with me. I really appreciate you coming on.

(00:43):
Wouldn't it be better for us if domestic operators that
you know, they pay tax here, they employ people here,
they give some money to local groups, etc. Wouldn't it
be better if they got the licenses.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Well, there's already a range of people who are paying
tax in New Zealand for online gambling. It's not just
you know, some of our pokies and casinos. There's already
thirty six operators paying tax. What I think is really
important here is this is about trying to build a
competitive market where we are enabling people to be able

(01:17):
to play safely in a regulated market, which is not
the case at the moment. But we also are not
trying to restrict it so much that we're not actually
channeling people into that market. So if you look at
a New Zealand consumer wanting to play games, there's hundreds
of websites available at the moment, unregulated in New Zealand.

(01:38):
How do we get that balance right for the number
which I've set at fifteen to ensure that there is competition,
there is choice in the market so that someone who
does want to play actually has those options. If we
went for just you know, domestic providers only, well, I'm
sorry to say, we're a very small country and there's
only about two people that could currently possibly into that market.

(02:02):
And I know when we look at things like supermarkets,
when we look at banks, when we don't have competition,
it's not a good market.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
But do we want a good market when it comes
to gambling.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Well, what's really important is in order to have harm minimization,
which is at the heart of why I'm doing this,
we have to allow for there to be a range
of products that people actually want to play with. You know,
if you've got people at the moment, I think it's around.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
Three point Sorry, but that just sounds back to front.
In order to make sure we've got harm minimization, we
need to make sure we've got good options for people
to gamble. I mean it sounds backwards.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
It's true, just let me walk you through it. So
at the moment, around three point six percent of people
in New Zealand gamble online already, but it's not a
safe market. There are no harm minimization standards for things
like age verification or being able to actually withdraw your winnings.
We're going to put in place some strong regulations to

(03:03):
ensure that children can't play online and you can get
your money out. There'll be a whole bunch others as well.
But in order to get people who are currently gambling
and people who might in the future want to gamble
into a safe and regulated market, we have to have
options for them to play with, not just one or
two providers. They have to be attractive. There has to

(03:25):
be competition, and that makes for a good market.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
What's to stop these people who are using these offshore
providers at the moment from just keeping on doing that.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
Well, it's possible, but this is called the channeling effect.
So what will end up doing is changing the market.
So people can advertise, they can let people know about
what their products are, but you've got some very strict
criteria about what you can and cannot do, and if
you breach any of those obligations, DiiA could revoke your

(03:58):
license or give you a fine of up to five
million dollars. It's really important that we acknowledge people do
gamble online, but it is currently unsafe for New Zealand.
So if you've put in place those harmonimization standards.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
Okay, But if you're a foreign foreign gambling online gambling company,
you've currently got some market share in New Zealand. Presumably
you've attracted customers by advertising to them in some way,
shape or form. Who's going to be policing online ads
for gambling.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
Well, at the moment ads for online gambling are illegal.
That can't happen, but the IA do work to take
them down. That is one of the functions of DEA,
and I understand the Internet service providers have been very
willing to take down illegal advertising of online gambling. What
will happen going forward is if there are people who

(04:52):
have licenses in other jurisdictions. Then bear in mind the
UK has hundreds of different licenses online gam If any
of those people are illegally operating in New Zealand, our regulator,
through DEA, will get in touch with international regulators to
let them know that they're breaching our laws and that

(05:13):
could be a breach of their own license abilities and
other jurisdictions. So having our regulator work across borders to
let people know that there's been breaches in our country
will help to create this regulated, safe market.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
Presumably you've had advice up the wazoo on this. How
many people do you imagine that this is going to
stop problem gambling?

Speaker 2 (05:36):
Well, it's actually really hard to know, you know, we
don't have good data at the moment on even how
many people are specifically problem gamblers and how many people
have been helped by problem gambling services. My aim with
regulating the market is that we will actually capture better
data on who is gambling online and problem with it. So,

(06:01):
for example, a licensed provider would need to show DIA
over time how many people are using their services and
would even have breakdown data on what that type of
use has been like, so we can actually capture data
that we don't currently have because the market is unregulated.

Speaker 1 (06:20):
Okay, good luck with this, Brook. I note that the
tax take will be what around thirteen million bucks a
year for the first few years, so I mean, yeah,
good luck. It sounds very It sounds like it's going
to be an uphill battle if I'm being honest, to
get to actually make this something that the public will
find palatable, just because gambling is so destructive for people.

(06:43):
That's Bro Van Valdem, the Internal Affairs Minister.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
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