September 8, 2026 • 6 mins
Chris Hipkins is criticising his party's former policy on pricing farm emissions.
Labour has released a pledge to review and reform the Emissions Trading Scheme - saying the price is too low.
It wants farmers to adopt new tech to reduce emissions, and isn't campaigning on making them pay for agricultural emissions, as it did for nearly two decades.
Hipkins says he's not convinced it would've worked.
"We went through that whole process, it actually would have been very difficult to pull it off. That was all done before I'd become the leader of the Labour party - I'd inherited that one."
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now, Labour's outlined their climate policy today. It looks like
they will not be charging farmers for emissions and they
want to mix up the ETS because that's clearly not working.
And to talk that through, we have, can you believe it,
the Labour leader, Chris Hipkins. Hello, Chippy.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
G'day, Heather. How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Very well, thank you. It's good to have you on
the show. Now, why are you not putting the farmers
in the ETS?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
We want to reduce emissions from farming, but we want
to do that in the easiest way possible. So there's
new technology coming on stream. Farmers can reduce their emissions
by using new technology to reduce the amount of synthetic
fertilizer that they're using to use irrigation more effectively in
a more targeted way, then we want to work with
farmers to make that happen. A price should only be
(00:41):
a last mechanism. You know, it's your backstop. It's the
thing that you do if everything else fails. There are
other ways of achieving the goal. Right.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
When did you guys release He Waka Eke Noa, which
was Labour and the Greens' big policy for putting the
farmers into the ETS, essentially? When did that happen?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I think it might have been in the first term
that we were in government, so it would have been
between 2017 and 2020.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Okay, so let's say it was around about 2019, because
that kind of rings a bell for me. What technology
has come on stream since 2019 that is such a
game changer you don't have to do this anymore?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Well, there's vaccinations. So if you look at some of
the stuff that's happening around vaccination and boluses that can
significantly reduce the emissions that are coming from cows, that's
all technology that's actually been developed with funding from our government.
We put money in to do that. There's new technology
being more widely deployed like halter collars, for example, that
are making a real difference to the effectiveness of farming.
(01:32):
They can get much greater productivity. They can reduce the
amount of synthetic fertilizer they're using. The new technology around
the probes that they're putting in around how they use
irrigation is also making a big difference. So there are
new technologies. The AgriZero, which we funded as a government,
is coming up with quite a lot of innovation in
(01:54):
that area. And I think, well, I want to back that.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
That methane vaccine, is that good to go?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
It's very close. It's very, very close. So they've had
some very, very successful results.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
The point I'm trying to get to is that there's
actually nothing significant that has changed since 2019. So this
is just basically you guys realising this is politically never
going to fly, is it?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Well, it's not just that. It's also, you know, we
went through the whole Hawaka Ekinola process, and it would
have been very, very difficult to implement a farm gate
price on methane emissions. So we went through that whole process.
It actually would have been very difficult to pull it off,
even if, you know, any government had decided to go
ahead with it.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Why did you do it then?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Well, look, that was all done before I became the
leader of the Labour Party. I inherited that one. And
that was one of the things that I was looking
very closely at before the election. Welcome to reality. I'm
not convinced it would have worked.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
No, it wouldn't have. Thank you. Welcome to reality and
joining the rest of us. Now, what is your plan
with the ETS? You want to lift the carbon price,
do you?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
No, we want to make sure that we're not trying
to plant a whole lot more pine trees on productive
land because that's what the ETS is driving at the moment.
We've got to reduce our emissions overall. We're not going
to offset our way out of things by basically just
planting pine trees on what is otherwise very productive farmland
growing land. We've actually got to change that dynamic. We
(03:15):
can't just plant pine trees everywhere. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
So how do you do that, though? Do you lift
the carbon price?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Well, in time, the problem is at the moment, if
the carbon price goes up, all that's going to do
is result in even more farmland being swamped with pine trees.
The National Party, for a long time, have been aiming
to lift the carbon price. This is not something that's new.
It's been a long-standing goal of successive governments that over
time the carbon price will rise. That's how you actually
bring down emissions. The National Party, when they say they
(03:42):
want the ETS to do the heavy lifting, to do
the heavy lifting, that means over time the carbon price
goes up. But at the moment, if the carbon price
goes up, as long as forestry is still in there,
as long as exotic forests like pine trees are still
in there, it's not going to solve the problem. It's
just going to result in more pine trees being planted. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Now, Chippy, I watched your press conference after your big
climate speech today, and I thought, geez, you look bummed out. Like,
you look really flat. Is that because of how crap
the polling is?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
No, not at all. We're feeling pretty pumped up and
ready for a very vigorous election campaign.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
What do you put that down to, how crap the
polling is?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Oh, look, the National Party have been telling a lot
of lies about the Labour Party. We'll be pushing back
more firmly on that. And we will be talking a
lot more about what we are going to do instead.
So you'll see more policy announcements coming from us. I
hear that. People want to hear more about what we're
going to do instead. And we're going to be telling
you a lot more about that.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
I reckon you're on track to, I don't know, I
reckon 25. I reckon 25 would be a good result
for you on November 7. What do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Oh, look, you shouldn't listen to the National Party's pollsters
quite so much.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I'm not. I'm just going with my gut and, you know,
women's intuition, etc. Where do you think you end up?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I think we're going to do significantly better than that,
and we're going to be in the government after the
November election. Oh, yeah. New Zealanders want change. New Zealanders
want change. They know we can't afford three more years
of this. Look at the mess they're making in the
health system. People are literally dying in hospital.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Look, I agree with you. Your sentiment is right. New
Zealanders want change, but I don't think they want change
to you. That's your problem.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Well, we've got plenty of campaigning ahead of us. It's
our opportunity to convince New Zealanders that we can deliver
the change that we need. We can fix the crisis
in our health system. We can make practical changes that
will help Kiwis with the cost of living. And we
can get the country back to work. National wants to
cut 9,000 more jobs. There's going to be a huge
economic impact for that. We can't afford three more years
(05:37):
of this government.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Now, Chippy, why has it been so hard for us
to get you on the show in the last week?
What's going on?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
No, I'm just a busy person, Heather, but I'm always
happy to come on your show when the teacher allows it.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
What kind of like total silent secret meetings were you
in yesterday? You couldn't even take your phone in, so
your press set couldn't even text you and ask you
if you could come on the show.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Oh, look, I have plenty of meetings, Heather, and when
I'm available, I'm certainly happy to come.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
On your show. You don't take your phone into meetings?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Well, generally when I'm meeting with people, I pay attention
to them rather than sitting there on my phone.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Okay, well, I suppose that's quite polite. Hey, Chippy, thank you,
and I appreciate you coming on the show today. Chris Hipkins,
Labour Party leader. Peter Vlandys, really quickly, just an update.
What did you think? Was that worth it from Chippy?
I quite enjoyed that. I like Chippy for as nutty
as his ideas are, some of them. I quite like
having a little chat with him from time to time.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
For more from Heather Duplessy-Allen Drive, listen live to Newstalk
ZB from 4pm weekdays or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Now, Labour's outlined their climate policy today. It looks like
they will not be charging farmers for emissions and they
want to mix up the ETS because that's clearly not working.
And to talk that through, we have, can you believe it,
the Labour leader, Chris Hipkins. Hello, Chippy.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
G'day, Heather. How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Very well, thank you. It's good to have you on
the show. Now, why are you not putting the farmers
in the ETS?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
We want to reduce emissions from farming, but we want
to do that in the easiest way possible. So there's
new technology coming on stream. Farmers can reduce their emissions
by using new technology to reduce the amount of synthetic
fertilizer that they're using to use irrigation more effectively in
a more targeted way, then we want to work with
farmers to make that happen. A price should only be
(00:41):
a last mechanism. You know, it's your backstop. It's the
thing that you do if everything else fails. There are
other ways of achieving the goal. Right.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
When did you guys release He Waka Eke Noa, which
was Labour and the Greens' big policy for putting the
farmers into the ETS, essentially? When did that happen?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I think it might have been in the first term
that we were in government, so it would have been
between 2017 and 2020.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Okay, so let's say it was around about 2019, because
that kind of rings a bell for me. What technology
has come on stream since 2019 that is such a
game changer you don't have to do this anymore?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Well, there's vaccinations. So if you look at some of
the stuff that's happening around vaccination and boluses that can
significantly reduce the emissions that are coming from cows, that's
all technology that's actually been developed with funding from our government.
We put money in to do that. There's new technology
being more widely deployed like halter collars, for example, that
are making a real difference to the effectiveness of farming.
(01:32):
They can get much greater productivity. They can reduce the
amount of synthetic fertilizer they're using. The new technology around
the probes that they're putting in around how they use
irrigation is also making a big difference. So there are
new technologies. The AgriZero, which we funded as a government,
is coming up with quite a lot of innovation in
(01:54):
that area. And I think, well, I want to back that.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
That methane vaccine, is that good to go?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
It's very close. It's very, very close. So they've had
some very, very successful results.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
The point I'm trying to get to is that there's
actually nothing significant that has changed since 2019. So this
is just basically you guys realising this is politically never
going to fly, is it?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Well, it's not just that. It's also, you know, we
went through the whole Hawaka Ekinola process, and it would
have been very, very difficult to implement a farm gate
price on methane emissions. So we went through that whole process.
It actually would have been very difficult to pull it off,
even if, you know, any government had decided to go
ahead with it.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Why did you do it then?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Well, look, that was all done before I became the
leader of the Labour Party. I inherited that one. And
that was one of the things that I was looking
very closely at before the election. Welcome to reality. I'm
not convinced it would have worked.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
No, it wouldn't have. Thank you. Welcome to reality and
joining the rest of us. Now, what is your plan
with the ETS? You want to lift the carbon price,
do you?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
No, we want to make sure that we're not trying
to plant a whole lot more pine trees on productive
land because that's what the ETS is driving at the moment.
We've got to reduce our emissions overall. We're not going
to offset our way out of things by basically just
planting pine trees on what is otherwise very productive farmland
growing land. We've actually got to change that dynamic. We
(03:15):
can't just plant pine trees everywhere. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
So how do you do that, though? Do you lift
the carbon price?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Well, in time, the problem is at the moment, if
the carbon price goes up, all that's going to do
is result in even more farmland being swamped with pine trees.
The National Party, for a long time, have been aiming
to lift the carbon price. This is not something that's new.
It's been a long-standing goal of successive governments that over
time the carbon price will rise. That's how you actually
bring down emissions. The National Party, when they say they
(03:42):
want the ETS to do the heavy lifting, to do
the heavy lifting, that means over time the carbon price
goes up. But at the moment, if the carbon price
goes up, as long as forestry is still in there,
as long as exotic forests like pine trees are still
in there, it's not going to solve the problem. It's
just going to result in more pine trees being planted. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Now, Chippy, I watched your press conference after your big
climate speech today, and I thought, geez, you look bummed out. Like,
you look really flat. Is that because of how crap
the polling is?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
No, not at all. We're feeling pretty pumped up and
ready for a very vigorous election campaign.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
What do you put that down to, how crap the
polling is?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Oh, look, the National Party have been telling a lot
of lies about the Labour Party. We'll be pushing back
more firmly on that. And we will be talking a
lot more about what we are going to do instead.
So you'll see more policy announcements coming from us. I
hear that. People want to hear more about what we're
going to do instead. And we're going to be telling
you a lot more about that.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
I reckon you're on track to, I don't know, I
reckon 25. I reckon 25 would be a good result
for you on November 7. What do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Oh, look, you shouldn't listen to the National Party's pollsters
quite so much.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I'm not. I'm just going with my gut and, you know,
women's intuition, etc. Where do you think you end up?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I think we're going to do significantly better than that,
and we're going to be in the government after the
November election. Oh, yeah. New Zealanders want change. New Zealanders
want change. They know we can't afford three more years
of this. Look at the mess they're making in the
health system. People are literally dying in hospital.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Look, I agree with you. Your sentiment is right. New
Zealanders want change, but I don't think they want change
to you. That's your problem.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Well, we've got plenty of campaigning ahead of us. It's
our opportunity to convince New Zealanders that we can deliver
the change that we need. We can fix the crisis
in our health system. We can make practical changes that
will help Kiwis with the cost of living. And we
can get the country back to work. National wants to
cut 9,000 more jobs. There's going to be a huge
economic impact for that. We can't afford three more years
(05:37):
of this government.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Now, Chippy, why has it been so hard for us
to get you on the show in the last week?
What's going on?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
No, I'm just a busy person, Heather, but I'm always
happy to come on your show when the teacher allows it.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
What kind of like total silent secret meetings were you
in yesterday? You couldn't even take your phone in, so
your press set couldn't even text you and ask you
if you could come on the show.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Oh, look, I have plenty of meetings, Heather, and when
I'm available, I'm certainly happy to come.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
On your show. You don't take your phone into meetings?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Well, generally when I'm meeting with people, I pay attention
to them rather than sitting there on my phone.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Okay, well, I suppose that's quite polite. Hey, Chippy, thank you,
and I appreciate you coming on the show today. Chris Hipkins,
Labour Party leader. Peter Vlandys, really quickly, just an update.
What did you think? Was that worth it from Chippy?
I quite enjoyed that. I like Chippy for as nutty
as his ideas are, some of them. I quite like
having a little chat with him from time to time.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
For more from Heather Duplessy-Allen Drive, listen live to Newstalk
ZB from 4pm weekdays or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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