Louise Upston: Social Development Minister on beneficiary numbers reaching a 12-year high

The Social Development Minister is certain it's only a matter of time before beneficiary numbers fall from a 12-year high.

New figures show 427,000 people were on a main benefit in December - including more than half on Jobseeker. 

That's despite the Government declaring it would curb welfare dependency shortly after taking office. 

Louise Upston says businesses sentiment is improving.

"When businesses are confident, they take on more staff. The staff they've got, they give more hours, they lift wages. So we are really confident things have started to turn the corner." 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now it looks like our government as well off track
on its benefit reduction target. The goal is to get
one hundred and forty thousand people off job seeker, or
rather down to one hundred and forty thousand people on
job seeker. That's a drop of fifty thousand Right now
the numbers are moving in the opposite direction though, two
hundred and twenty three thousand kiwis are still on that goal.
That's the highest level in twelve years. Louise Upston is
the Social Development Minister. Hi Luiz, Hello, Heather, how are

(00:23):
you well? Thank you? We can put this down to
the recession, can't we?

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Well, yeah, I mean one of the things that we
do know when you've got high spending, high debt, inflation,
interest rates that are high, the last thing is unemployment
and so correcting unemployment is the last thing that follows.
What's really encouraging is in the Mzier Report, for example,
says that we are seeing business confidence the highest it's

(00:49):
been since twenty fourteen. What happens when businesses are confident,
they take on more staff. The staff that I've got,
they give more hours, they left wages. So we are
really confident that things have started to turn the corner.
We've also seen with the latest labor market figures for
the December quarter an additional fifteen thousand people in work.

(01:12):
So while the job seeking numbers are challenging, we're seeing
some very strong indicators with business confidence and labor market figures.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
When is the fifty thousand reduction realistic.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Well, it's the target is for twenty thirty. It was
always going to be incredibly ambitious. But look here that
I look at every single person that we move off
welfare into work, the enormous difference it makes for them,
their family and their community. So that is what drives
me each and every day, person by person, connecting them
with a job, and despite their being challenging economic times,

(01:49):
last year we've seen eighty three thousand New Zealanders move
off welfare and into work. So what we are doing
is working.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
Can we say, though, that the benefits scene, which is
really the biggest thing that you've done to try to
get people off the doll aren't working.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Well, I wouldn't say that because the most recent research
into the traffic light system says that ninety percent of
the people found it useful in understanding what their obligations
are now. Remember these are obligations to be looking for work,
applying for jobs, be in contact with MSD, attending seminars,
attending training, all things that help them to find a

(02:28):
job when the labor market conditions improve. So I'm really
confident that as those businesses take on more staff, the
job seeger numbers are willful. We have a way more
active welfare system than we did when we came into office,
more people in case management, more individual support, people very

(02:48):
clear about what their obligations are and knowing there will
be consequences if they don't reach them. So there's a
wide array of things that we have done to improve
the welfare system and to ensure that more people move
off welfare into jobs.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
Okay, so at the moment we have got I think
it's thirteen percent of the working age population sitting on
some form of benefit. That's completely unacceptable, isn't it, Louise?
And you know it's not unusual that the UK had
a similar debate not long ago about one in ten
of them being on the doll What do we have
to do to get that number right down to where
it should be, which is far smaller.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yes, So that's one of the concerns I had when
we came into office was despite there being very positive
economic times and employers desperate for staff, we saw job
seeking numbers go up under the last government. So yes,
we've got to focus on job seekers. We also have
to focus on reducing the number of sole parents on benefit.

(03:50):
When National was last in office, those numbers were falling
and we're falling for many years. Labor come in and
those numbers start going up again, and we're focused on
how we reduce those numbers. It's not one thing, it's multiple.
But you're right, we do have a higher proportion of
the New Zealand population on welfare than we can sustainably

(04:14):
support in the years and decades ahead.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
What's a sustainable number do you think?

Speaker 2 (04:21):
Look, I don't have a sort of target in mind.
My focus is definitely on job seekers.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
No, I'm not asking you for a target, although I
realize about answering the question it will become a thing
for you. But what do you reckon is a sustainable number?

Speaker 2 (04:35):
Look, I honestly don't know, and I haven't put a
lot of thought into it. I'm more interested in each
of the categories how we reduce it, and so I
sort of tend to focus on raw numbers rather than
percentages of the population because for me, I'm thinking about
real people. I'm thinking about real people. A sole parent,

(04:58):
how do we support her to gain back into part
time work and then into full time work. For a
job seeker that's got health conditions, how do we ensure
they're getting their health needs met so they have a
better chance of being back in a job. And that
is where very significant changes in MSD are very much

(05:20):
around more individualized system. That's why the increase in case
management is really critical. So we've now got seventy thousand
people in case management and that is across a range
of category. So it's not just in job seekers we
are looking at sole parents, We're looking at young people

(05:42):
because we want to do everything possible support people off
welfare so that I've got more choices and opportunities in
life and that person by person.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
All right, Louise, thank you very much. I really appreciate
your time. It's Louis Upston, the Social Development Minister. For
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