May 18, 2026 • 7 mins
Ahead of Budget 2026, the Finance Minister has hinted towards incoming changes for certain Government departments.
Nicola Willis says she's planning to tell ministries and departments to come up with plans for amalgamation, with more details to be revealed tomorrow.
Willis went on to explain that the Government's agreed that there's too many ministries and that they need to amalgamate agencies.
"Just as every business and household in the country is always working to get more value for money, we need to, too."
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Nicola will as Finance ministers with US high Nicola, Hi,
how much do you reckon it would cost to buy
back the.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
B n Z Ah, Well, it depends. If you look
at its book value, it's thirteen billion. But when you've
got someone saying, no matter what, I'm going to buy it,
then you're going to charge as much as you possibly
can for it, aren't.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Herald has worked it out maybe as much as twenty
four billion dollars.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yeah, exactly by any cost, that is far, far too much.
I'm all for growing key we Bank, making it more
competitive with the Aussie banks, and I accept that requires
new capital, but this is a bit of a jumper
shack moment for instances. It's not comparedible with and affordable
set a government book.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Let's assume the most likely thing happens after the election
and you go into coalition negotiations with New Zealand first
and act. This is the first thing that gets dropped, right,
because this is just nonsense.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I think sometimes politicians are seeking attention rather than results,
and this might be one of those occasions.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Okay, Now on the subject of debts though, are we
getting stung by the rising cost of debt? Server at
the moment, yes, we are.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Our debt servicing our interest bill is costing around nine
billion dollars a year, which is a heck of a
lot of money, and that's why we're on such a
mission to get the debt curve bending down so that
that interest bill is taking up less of your taxpayers
money each year.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Nine billion sounds about what it was beforehand.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
So has it gone up, Well, it will continue to
go up in the years ahead as debt grows, and
that's partly why we're always so concerned about it in
the interest rate position, because when interest rates go up,
that affects our debt servicing cost as well.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah, what I'm talking about is it's being reported in
the Herald today that there isn't much as much demand
for longer term government bonds and that is pushing up
what it is costing in terms of national debt.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Well, we've continued to have very good demand for our
government bonds. In fact, the coverage ratio, so how many
people are bidding for our bonds versus how many we're selling,
has actually increased in recent times. So there's no shortage
of people wanting to buy debt, but there's no getting
away from the fact that internationally interest rates have been
rising and that affects the costs now and into the future.
(02:08):
And of course it's not just about what you're paying
right now. It's the fact that you're always beholding to
the rest of the world, and if there are financial
jitters elsewhere, we could suddenly find that interest bill going
up a lot higher.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Did you read Domian Grant's article at the weekend calling
for reform of the public service?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Well, he is going to like my speech tomorrow. I've
got a pre budget announcement and one of the key
things I will be announcing is our next steps to
transform the public service. We think that just as every
business and household in the country is always working to
get more value for money, we need to too. And
so there's three key things that we've agreed to as
(02:45):
a government need to change. First, we've got too many
ministries and departments. Depending how you count it, there's around
forty two. In a country like Finland, it's more like twelve,
so we need to amalgamate agencies. Two, we need to
join the digitization and AI revolution. Actually, a government needs
(03:06):
to get into twenty twenty six and prepare for twenty
thirty six, and too many of our systems are old fashioned.
There's huge efficiency and improvements in service delivery to be
got from digitization. And number three, actually, public servant numbers
got so out of whack under labor they leaped from
about one percent of the working population to one point
two percent. We want to bring it back down to
(03:28):
one percent. So we're going to set a target for
that reduction to be achieved by twenty twenty nine. So
we agree much more work to get more value out
of the public service.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Okay, one percent of the workforce. If you're going to
try and get it back to one percent of the workforce,
how many public servants do you need a fire?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Well, it's it's up over sixty thousand now and we
need to get it down below sixty thousand. And I'll
be releasing figures tomorrow and you're welcome to attend my
speech either. It won't be far from you in Auckland.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
I'm just loving I'm just loving the irony of the
fact that you were on the show about a month
ago saying, Ho, you fired all these back office stuff
and you have frontline stuff, and now are youre telling
me you're going to fire some back office stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Well, we have made great progress since we came into government.
Not only have we delivered better results across everything from
reducing violent crime to the social housing wait list. We've
done that also while reducing the number of policy analysts, managers,
the consultancy fee across government. So we have made good progress.
But it's time to double down and make even more progress.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Why can't it can't we get the numbers down to
where they were predis Cinder when she really which she
and Grant really went hard, and that was about forty
seven forty eight thousand, wasn't it.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, So they started off at forty seven thousand and
they ballooned it out to about sixty five thousand, so
huge growth. To get a sense of it, the first
thing they did was got rid of the cap on
the back office the last national government had. And what
you saw was that the numbers of people in those
back office roles exploded by forty percent, and overall the
(05:03):
public service grew at about three times the rate of
the private sector, so completely out of control. Our government's
done a lot to rain that back in, but we
agree with you, there's more work to do, because after all,
we're not spending our money, We're spending your money.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
But why can't you why can't we get it back
to the forty seven forty.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Eight Well, I'll talk to that in my speech tomorrow,
which is that we do accept will continue to have
a growing population, We'll have growing demands from the public
for the delivery of public services that they expect, you know,
will include continue to incarcerate people in our prisons, deliver
welfare support to families, so those things will continue. But
(05:46):
absolutely we can do more of that using digital tools,
being more efficient. We don't need as many departments to
do it. And we've got some awesome public servants. They're
smart cookies, but ultimately we've got to tie them in
bureaucracy a lot at the moment, so we can clean
it up now.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Now on the government departments, you've mentioned amalgamation, but would
you consider cutting some departments altogether.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Well, that's two ways of coming at the same problem.
If you look at the example of the Insert Agency
which Chris Bishop's creating, that merges the Housing Department, the
Environment Department, parts of Transport, and parts of Internal Affairs,
So in effect some of those entities don't exist anymore.
But what you've got is one joined up agency that
(06:29):
delivers all of the decent things those agencies were delivering
in a much more coherent way. So we want to
do more of that approach of saying, well, what actually
would make more sense to come together under one umbrella
and one agency and would actually lead to a better
service to the customers it's trying to serve and would
be more efficient.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Now, I love all of the sound of this, right,
I love it. So I don't want you to think
that I don't love it, but I do want you
to explain to me why you would keep something like
the Ministry for Women where no one needs that anymore,
and we can just get rid of it. And there
there you go. There's few hundred staff, you don't need
a few tens of stuff or whatever.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Well, look, the approach we're taking is we're saying to
the public service, right, the destination is fewer departments and
less money being spent, and we're going to have a
sinking lid on that money that you're spending on administration.
Come back to us, which with what the logical mergers are,
and I would not be surprised at all, Heather if
(07:27):
the proposals that came back suggested, Yeah, we still need
some of the functions delivered by the Ministry Forum of Affairs,
but maybe we can do that in an amalgamated entry.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Happy days, Nicola, thank you. This is the best news.
Nicola willis Finance Minister. So we're all going to turn
in for that speech tomorrow. For more from Heather duplessy
Ellen Drive, listen live to News Talk sai'd be from
four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Nicola will as Finance ministers with US high Nicola, Hi,
how much do you reckon it would cost to buy
back the.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
B n Z Ah, Well, it depends. If you look
at its book value, it's thirteen billion. But when you've
got someone saying, no matter what, I'm going to buy it,
then you're going to charge as much as you possibly
can for it, aren't.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Herald has worked it out maybe as much as twenty
four billion dollars.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yeah, exactly by any cost, that is far, far too much.
I'm all for growing key we Bank, making it more
competitive with the Aussie banks, and I accept that requires
new capital, but this is a bit of a jumper
shack moment for instances. It's not comparedible with and affordable
set a government book.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Let's assume the most likely thing happens after the election
and you go into coalition negotiations with New Zealand first
and act. This is the first thing that gets dropped, right,
because this is just nonsense.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I think sometimes politicians are seeking attention rather than results,
and this might be one of those occasions.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Okay, Now on the subject of debts though, are we
getting stung by the rising cost of debt? Server at
the moment, yes, we are.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Our debt servicing our interest bill is costing around nine
billion dollars a year, which is a heck of a
lot of money, and that's why we're on such a
mission to get the debt curve bending down so that
that interest bill is taking up less of your taxpayers
money each year.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Nine billion sounds about what it was beforehand.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
So has it gone up, Well, it will continue to
go up in the years ahead as debt grows, and
that's partly why we're always so concerned about it in
the interest rate position, because when interest rates go up,
that affects our debt servicing cost as well.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah, what I'm talking about is it's being reported in
the Herald today that there isn't much as much demand
for longer term government bonds and that is pushing up
what it is costing in terms of national debt.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Well, we've continued to have very good demand for our
government bonds. In fact, the coverage ratio, so how many
people are bidding for our bonds versus how many we're selling,
has actually increased in recent times. So there's no shortage
of people wanting to buy debt, but there's no getting
away from the fact that internationally interest rates have been
rising and that affects the costs now and into the future.
(02:08):
And of course it's not just about what you're paying
right now. It's the fact that you're always beholding to
the rest of the world, and if there are financial
jitters elsewhere, we could suddenly find that interest bill going
up a lot higher.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Did you read Domian Grant's article at the weekend calling
for reform of the public service?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Well, he is going to like my speech tomorrow. I've
got a pre budget announcement and one of the key
things I will be announcing is our next steps to
transform the public service. We think that just as every
business and household in the country is always working to
get more value for money, we need to too. And
so there's three key things that we've agreed to as
(02:45):
a government need to change. First, we've got too many
ministries and departments. Depending how you count it, there's around
forty two. In a country like Finland, it's more like twelve,
so we need to amalgamate agencies. Two, we need to
join the digitization and AI revolution. Actually, a government needs
(03:06):
to get into twenty twenty six and prepare for twenty
thirty six, and too many of our systems are old fashioned.
There's huge efficiency and improvements in service delivery to be
got from digitization. And number three, actually, public servant numbers
got so out of whack under labor they leaped from
about one percent of the working population to one point
two percent. We want to bring it back down to
(03:28):
one percent. So we're going to set a target for
that reduction to be achieved by twenty twenty nine. So
we agree much more work to get more value out
of the public service.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Okay, one percent of the workforce. If you're going to
try and get it back to one percent of the workforce,
how many public servants do you need a fire?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Well, it's it's up over sixty thousand now and we
need to get it down below sixty thousand. And I'll
be releasing figures tomorrow and you're welcome to attend my
speech either. It won't be far from you in Auckland.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
I'm just loving I'm just loving the irony of the
fact that you were on the show about a month
ago saying, Ho, you fired all these back office stuff
and you have frontline stuff, and now are youre telling
me you're going to fire some back office stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Well, we have made great progress since we came into government.
Not only have we delivered better results across everything from
reducing violent crime to the social housing wait list. We've
done that also while reducing the number of policy analysts, managers,
the consultancy fee across government. So we have made good progress.
But it's time to double down and make even more progress.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Why can't it can't we get the numbers down to
where they were predis Cinder when she really which she
and Grant really went hard, and that was about forty
seven forty eight thousand, wasn't it.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, So they started off at forty seven thousand and
they ballooned it out to about sixty five thousand, so
huge growth. To get a sense of it, the first
thing they did was got rid of the cap on
the back office the last national government had. And what
you saw was that the numbers of people in those
back office roles exploded by forty percent, and overall the
(05:03):
public service grew at about three times the rate of
the private sector, so completely out of control. Our government's
done a lot to rain that back in, but we
agree with you, there's more work to do, because after all,
we're not spending our money, We're spending your money.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
But why can't you why can't we get it back
to the forty seven forty.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Eight Well, I'll talk to that in my speech tomorrow,
which is that we do accept will continue to have
a growing population, We'll have growing demands from the public
for the delivery of public services that they expect, you know,
will include continue to incarcerate people in our prisons, deliver
welfare support to families, so those things will continue. But
(05:46):
absolutely we can do more of that using digital tools,
being more efficient. We don't need as many departments to
do it. And we've got some awesome public servants. They're
smart cookies, but ultimately we've got to tie them in
bureaucracy a lot at the moment, so we can clean
it up now.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Now on the government departments, you've mentioned amalgamation, but would
you consider cutting some departments altogether.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Well, that's two ways of coming at the same problem.
If you look at the example of the Insert Agency
which Chris Bishop's creating, that merges the Housing Department, the
Environment Department, parts of Transport, and parts of Internal Affairs,
So in effect some of those entities don't exist anymore.
But what you've got is one joined up agency that
(06:29):
delivers all of the decent things those agencies were delivering
in a much more coherent way. So we want to
do more of that approach of saying, well, what actually
would make more sense to come together under one umbrella
and one agency and would actually lead to a better
service to the customers it's trying to serve and would
be more efficient.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Now, I love all of the sound of this, right,
I love it. So I don't want you to think
that I don't love it, but I do want you
to explain to me why you would keep something like
the Ministry for Women where no one needs that anymore,
and we can just get rid of it. And there
there you go. There's few hundred staff, you don't need
a few tens of stuff or whatever.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Well, look, the approach we're taking is we're saying to
the public service, right, the destination is fewer departments and
less money being spent, and we're going to have a
sinking lid on that money that you're spending on administration.
Come back to us, which with what the logical mergers are,
and I would not be surprised at all, Heather if
(07:27):
the proposals that came back suggested, Yeah, we still need
some of the functions delivered by the Ministry Forum of Affairs,
but maybe we can do that in an amalgamated entry.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Happy days, Nicola, thank you. This is the best news.
Nicola willis Finance Minister. So we're all going to turn
in for that speech tomorrow. For more from Heather duplessy
Ellen Drive, listen live to News Talk sai'd be from
four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Popular Podcasts
Hey Jonas!
Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.