August 10, 2026 • 8 mins
Nicola Willis says the National's new proposed increase to the fuel tax, the new bed tax and the possible bank levy aren't new information.
A Taxpayers' Union Curia Issue poll shows 76 percent of National supporters want the party to promise no new taxes or tax increases.
The party yesterday outlined a promise for fiscal responsibility - including a commitment to lower the debt to GDP ratio and to get the books back into surplus.
Finance Minister Nicola Willis says these proposals have been documented and National's simply being straight with voters.
"Three issues we've already been very open and upfront about, and I can be very clear with you that there is nothing that we are considering that you haven't heard about."
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
With us right now. Is Nikola Willis the Finance minister.
Hime Minister.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Hi, Heather, it's great to have you back on the show.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
You've been unwell. Hi, I've missed you. I've missed you have.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
You though, it was very kind of you to say that. Listen.
I want to talk to you about these taxes. Okay,
So the Prime Minister said this morning there are three
that he's considering making changes to, which is the fuel
excise tax, the new bed tax, maybe a bank tax.
Is that it? That's the exhaustive list.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
That is it. That is the exhaustive list. And what
you'll notice is there's nothing new there. Those are things
that you've already heard from the government about and so
we're simply being straight with people. It's already documented that
as a cabinet all three parties of the Coalition agreed
with Auckland Council as part of our deal with them,
that we would explore the option of an accommodation levy.
(00:49):
That's already on the record. We've already been straight with
people that the three year moratorium we put on any
changes to fuel tax does need to come to an
end at some time. The timing of that is yet
to be decided by Cabinet. And then on bank taxes,
as are three parties in the coalition, we agreed to
(01:09):
a prudential levy which we announced at the budget, and
at that time I was candid that I would keep
looking to make sure there wasn't anything else that needed
to be tidied up in the taxation of banks. So
three issues we've already been very open and upfront about,
and I can be very clear with you that there
is nothing that we are considering that you haven't heard about.
(01:30):
We are a party that believes in low taxes, as
low as they can be, and we can keep that
commitment because we're not out there splurging the cash, unlike
the parties who oppose us.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Okay bank tax what's the point of.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
It, Well, the point is simply to make sure that
the banks are facing fair taxation. And so while I've
been behind the desk the IID have worked with them
on a couple of issues. One was to do with
where their branches are and how tax is treated there.
They actually worked through a consultation process with them. Some
(02:04):
changes have already been made. The second with the prudential
levy is bringing them into line with other financial institutions
who pay for their regulation via the Financial Markets Authority
and the Commerce Commission. In our judgment that it should
be the same with the Reserve Bank.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Fair enough, and so if you're going to get another
tax on top of the on top of the prudential levy,
and you say that's about fairness, what is unfair about
the situation with the banks at the moment they're paying
the same as everybody else.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Well, let me be clear, haven't decided to do anything extra.
But given the experience we've had in government of when
we did look under the hood of what's happening with
taxation of banks, we did see those two anomalies and
we do want to be clear that there aren't any others.
There are still some features of our taxation of the
four big Australian banks that are different from the way
(02:54):
they are taxed in Australia. So I've been upfront that
I'm continuing to look at that because the same principle applies,
which is I don't want working New Zealanders facing higher
costs because of new taxes, and so I have to
work through that, look at that, make sure that that
wouldn't be the result.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Did you guys make a mistake yesterday and re announcing
your budget responsibility rules?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
No, because those are critical to the foundations of our finances.
And frankly, the fact that the opposition parties won't even
commit that getting debt down is a good idea, won't
even commit that getting the books back and balance is
a good idea, and won't commit that only by keeping
government spending under control can you keep taxes low? Is
(03:41):
a glaring problem in the selection campaign, and I'm going
to keep doing everything I can to shine a light
on those issues because I think they're pivotal. I don't
think any New Zealander wants their government running up the
credit card the overdraft and then turning around later and saying, oops, sorry,
the debt collective is here and we're all in trouble.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Is the problem here, not that you're going to say, oh,
they're not prepared to do it, but you've had three
years you haven't done it either. And all it's going
to happen is every time you talk about this, everybody's
going to point out and go, well, you failed too.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Well, I'm sorry, but the last government tripled debt in
real terms, doubled it as a proportion of the economy,
and to somehow call a false analogy that I've done
the same thing, not true by any stretch of the imagination.
If you look at the final year for which labor
was responsible, twenty twenty four, netcore crown debt that year
(04:35):
was forty one point seven percent. The only year for
which we have full financial results is twenty twenty five.
Netcore crown debt for that year was forty one point
nine percent, so zero point two percent higher on our watch, Heather,
So to somehow say that that is the same as
Grant Robertson, who doubled the debt from under twenty percent
(04:55):
to more than forty percent, I just think is a
really full stay.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
I think it's fair enough. Like what you saying is
they are really bad. We're only just a little bit bad,
but you're still bad. You haven't managed to get us
into surplus, which you promised you would do. You've hardly
managed to bend down the deck curve, and you haven't
got core crown expenses under thirty percent, which you said
you wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Well, unsurprisingly, I disagree with your analysis because I think
given the situation that we have inherited, where one the
Treasury had completely overestimated what would happen with the economy
and our following COVID two, the global tariff for three
global oil shocks the most.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Excuses as well in the color they also make what I.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Didn't make an excuse about, and what I took complete
responsibility for, was our discretion re spending in my operating
allowances far far smaller than any Grant Robertson ever delivered,
and in fact was smaller than the operating allowances we
campaigned on every operating allowance smaller. In fact, last year's
operating allowance was more than a billion.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
You never ran as they've never ran our budget. And
that's possible because bil English did it well.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
He did it before there was superannuation costs going up
at an extreme rate. He did it at a time
when the population needs and the health system went as great.
He did it in a different time. And I stand
by the fact that we have put more funding into
the health system. We have put more funding into our schools,
we have put more funding in for the police, for
our prison service.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
All of the times that labour could run out, that's
all I'm saying is that if you keep on, if
you keep running this thing with labor, you point one
finger at them, full fingers point back at you, right.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
And I will keep pointing out to you that it
is a false analogy to say that I am the
same as Grant Robertson when those numbers are so materially different,
and when they still have an eighteen billion dollar hidden
bill of unfunded promises. So far, they've come out with
two major new taxes, capital gains tax and completely destroying.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
The numb those well debrief for that, listen, I have
to ask you a question on behalf of her head stots.
She says, there are thirty one councils who are obligated
right now to go to their members of the rape
pays and do what they call representative reviews, right which
is basically just asking them, hey, what do you think
we should look like in the next few years? And
she says it's utterly pointless and al waste hundreds of
(07:12):
millions of dollars across all of the councils because none
of these councils are going to exist. Would you change
the law to stop them having to do this?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Well, that sounds like a very practical problem that Raheat
is raising. I'm not the Minister for Local government, so
I'm not going to give you a policy announcement on
the hope that I will certainly when I get off
you send a message I raised there with him, because
it does seem like something if we can, if we
can do something practical on that.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
We wanted to ask Simon about that, but Simon Simon
doesn't like to come on the radio sometimes when there's
difficult days like today. So if you pass that on
to Simon, I'll owe.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
You every day is a good day. Heither it's a
difficult day when you're getting to govern the country. That's right.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
You go tell someone in that, Hey, thank you, Nicole.
I appreciate it very much like after yourself, Nichola Willis's
Finance minister. For more from Heather Duplicy Alan Drive, listen
live to us Talk said Be from four pm weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
With us right now. Is Nikola Willis the Finance minister.
Hime Minister.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Hi, Heather, it's great to have you back on the show.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
You've been unwell. Hi, I've missed you. I've missed you have.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
You though, it was very kind of you to say that. Listen.
I want to talk to you about these taxes. Okay,
So the Prime Minister said this morning there are three
that he's considering making changes to, which is the fuel
excise tax, the new bed tax, maybe a bank tax.
Is that it? That's the exhaustive list.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
That is it. That is the exhaustive list. And what
you'll notice is there's nothing new there. Those are things
that you've already heard from the government about and so
we're simply being straight with people. It's already documented that
as a cabinet all three parties of the Coalition agreed
with Auckland Council as part of our deal with them,
that we would explore the option of an accommodation levy.
(00:49):
That's already on the record. We've already been straight with
people that the three year moratorium we put on any
changes to fuel tax does need to come to an
end at some time. The timing of that is yet
to be decided by Cabinet. And then on bank taxes,
as are three parties in the coalition, we agreed to
(01:09):
a prudential levy which we announced at the budget, and
at that time I was candid that I would keep
looking to make sure there wasn't anything else that needed
to be tidied up in the taxation of banks. So
three issues we've already been very open and upfront about,
and I can be very clear with you that there
is nothing that we are considering that you haven't heard about.
(01:30):
We are a party that believes in low taxes, as
low as they can be, and we can keep that
commitment because we're not out there splurging the cash, unlike
the parties who oppose us.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Okay bank tax what's the point of.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
It, Well, the point is simply to make sure that
the banks are facing fair taxation. And so while I've
been behind the desk the IID have worked with them
on a couple of issues. One was to do with
where their branches are and how tax is treated there.
They actually worked through a consultation process with them. Some
(02:04):
changes have already been made. The second with the prudential
levy is bringing them into line with other financial institutions
who pay for their regulation via the Financial Markets Authority
and the Commerce Commission. In our judgment that it should
be the same with the Reserve Bank.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Fair enough, and so if you're going to get another
tax on top of the on top of the prudential levy,
and you say that's about fairness, what is unfair about
the situation with the banks at the moment they're paying
the same as everybody else.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Well, let me be clear, haven't decided to do anything extra.
But given the experience we've had in government of when
we did look under the hood of what's happening with
taxation of banks, we did see those two anomalies and
we do want to be clear that there aren't any others.
There are still some features of our taxation of the
four big Australian banks that are different from the way
(02:54):
they are taxed in Australia. So I've been upfront that
I'm continuing to look at that because the same principle applies,
which is I don't want working New Zealanders facing higher
costs because of new taxes, and so I have to
work through that, look at that, make sure that that
wouldn't be the result.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Did you guys make a mistake yesterday and re announcing
your budget responsibility rules?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
No, because those are critical to the foundations of our finances.
And frankly, the fact that the opposition parties won't even
commit that getting debt down is a good idea, won't
even commit that getting the books back and balance is
a good idea, and won't commit that only by keeping
government spending under control can you keep taxes low? Is
(03:41):
a glaring problem in the selection campaign, and I'm going
to keep doing everything I can to shine a light
on those issues because I think they're pivotal. I don't
think any New Zealander wants their government running up the
credit card the overdraft and then turning around later and saying, oops, sorry,
the debt collective is here and we're all in trouble.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Is the problem here, not that you're going to say, oh,
they're not prepared to do it, but you've had three
years you haven't done it either. And all it's going
to happen is every time you talk about this, everybody's
going to point out and go, well, you failed too.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Well, I'm sorry, but the last government tripled debt in
real terms, doubled it as a proportion of the economy,
and to somehow call a false analogy that I've done
the same thing, not true by any stretch of the imagination.
If you look at the final year for which labor
was responsible, twenty twenty four, netcore crown debt that year
(04:35):
was forty one point seven percent. The only year for
which we have full financial results is twenty twenty five.
Netcore crown debt for that year was forty one point
nine percent, so zero point two percent higher on our watch, Heather,
So to somehow say that that is the same as
Grant Robertson, who doubled the debt from under twenty percent
(04:55):
to more than forty percent, I just think is a
really full stay.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
I think it's fair enough. Like what you saying is
they are really bad. We're only just a little bit bad,
but you're still bad. You haven't managed to get us
into surplus, which you promised you would do. You've hardly
managed to bend down the deck curve, and you haven't
got core crown expenses under thirty percent, which you said
you wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Well, unsurprisingly, I disagree with your analysis because I think
given the situation that we have inherited, where one the
Treasury had completely overestimated what would happen with the economy
and our following COVID two, the global tariff for three
global oil shocks the most.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Excuses as well in the color they also make what I.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Didn't make an excuse about, and what I took complete
responsibility for, was our discretion re spending in my operating
allowances far far smaller than any Grant Robertson ever delivered,
and in fact was smaller than the operating allowances we
campaigned on every operating allowance smaller. In fact, last year's
operating allowance was more than a billion.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
You never ran as they've never ran our budget. And
that's possible because bil English did it well.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
He did it before there was superannuation costs going up
at an extreme rate. He did it at a time
when the population needs and the health system went as great.
He did it in a different time. And I stand
by the fact that we have put more funding into
the health system. We have put more funding into our schools,
we have put more funding in for the police, for
our prison service.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
All of the times that labour could run out, that's
all I'm saying is that if you keep on, if
you keep running this thing with labor, you point one
finger at them, full fingers point back at you, right.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
And I will keep pointing out to you that it
is a false analogy to say that I am the
same as Grant Robertson when those numbers are so materially different,
and when they still have an eighteen billion dollar hidden
bill of unfunded promises. So far, they've come out with
two major new taxes, capital gains tax and completely destroying.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
The numb those well debrief for that, listen, I have
to ask you a question on behalf of her head stots.
She says, there are thirty one councils who are obligated
right now to go to their members of the rape
pays and do what they call representative reviews, right which
is basically just asking them, hey, what do you think
we should look like in the next few years? And
she says it's utterly pointless and al waste hundreds of
(07:12):
millions of dollars across all of the councils because none
of these councils are going to exist. Would you change
the law to stop them having to do this?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Well, that sounds like a very practical problem that Raheat
is raising. I'm not the Minister for Local government, so
I'm not going to give you a policy announcement on
the hope that I will certainly when I get off
you send a message I raised there with him, because
it does seem like something if we can, if we
can do something practical on that.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
We wanted to ask Simon about that, but Simon Simon
doesn't like to come on the radio sometimes when there's
difficult days like today. So if you pass that on
to Simon, I'll owe.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
You every day is a good day. Heither it's a
difficult day when you're getting to govern the country. That's right.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
You go tell someone in that, Hey, thank you, Nicole.
I appreciate it very much like after yourself, Nichola Willis's
Finance minister. For more from Heather Duplicy Alan Drive, listen
live to us Talk said Be from four pm weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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