Ukraine has approached New Zealand about a deal to build military drones, in a new push to sell its Russian-killing technology around the world.
Ukraine has 20 countries interested and four signed agreements on drones, including Germany, Canada, Norway and Japan.
Otago University's Robert Patman explains why Ukraine is looking to move forward in this area.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Ukrainian ambassadors is he wants New Zealand to buy
drone technology off Ukraine. Ukraine's approached New Zealand and also
Australia to try to strike a deal which would see
their tech added to our weapons arsenal. They've already struck
four similar deals so far with Germany, Canada, Norway and Japan.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Now.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Robert Patman is an international relations professor at Otago University
and with us HI.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Robert oh good evening. Healla, so what are the.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Ukrainians up to? Are they seeing this as making money
off their expertise.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I don't think they're up to anything. They're doing what
most countries do when they've become a world leader in
drone technology, and their drone the drone technology they produced
has been, from a museum point of view, a bit
of a number eight wire production. That is to say
that they improvised under extreme circumstances of the Russian invasion.
(00:50):
And I think what was striking is that, of course
they went to the assistance of some of the Golf
states following Iran's retaliatory strikes on Golf states, and they've
signed a number of deals there. So I think what
they're trying to do is what most countries would do,
which is capitalized on becoming a world leader in a
particular area, which is becoming crucial for conflict. I mean,
(01:12):
drones have revolutionized war as we know it now.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
If I read it correctly, it sounds like the Ukrainian
ambassador has approached our government now on a number of occasions,
maybe as many as three, and they still not had
any luck with US. Is that weird from US?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
No, I think we're just honoring the decision. I don't
think there's any you know, the government said that a
decision was they had received an approach in December and
they were still considering it. You know, the government is
pledged to spend up to two percent of GDP on defense,
(01:49):
and this is a big increase, and I think they're
trying to make sure they spend that money wisely. I
do think what the Ukrainians are doing, though, is symptomatic
of the fact that many new players Middle powers such
as Ukraine and Sweden are becoming. They're producing military equipment
which is cheaper and certainly competitive with the sort of
(02:11):
military equipment that US and China are producing.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Should we buy dromes? I mean I saw one analyst
said we should check a billion dollars at it.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, I mean doctor del Kalini, I think made that recommendation,
and I can see where he's coming from. I'm not
sure world wars around the corner, though, I think we
should be looking seriously into doing this because it seems
to me that drones have you know, they have multiple uses,
and it seems to me that that would be smart
(02:42):
looking forward, linking up with countries like Ukraine and Sweden
using their technology, diversifying our defense links and maximizing our
defense capabilities, I suppose would be the ideal. But look
drone technology. If you look at ninety the scent of
Russian casualties in the last few months have been caused
(03:05):
by drones. So there's no doubt about it. Drones have
revolutionized our thinking about war, particularly things like tanks and
naval vessels, which increasingly look very vulnerable with this technology.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Well, quite right, and so if we are spending all
of our money on frigates, for example, would we not
be making the mistake of investing in what is essentially
old technology and very vulnerable technology when it's moved on
and we should be putting our money in this.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Well, I don't think it's neither or I think what
you're saying though, is that a correct balance has to
be struck. How that balance is managed is obviously for
the defense planners, but it does seem to me we
can't ignore the fact that war has been revolutionized by
drones and there's no going back. You can't put the
(03:52):
genie back in the box. No.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I was under the impression though that we were actually
also very good at making drones. Was I wrong?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
We are, Yes, We've got for the last ten years
we've been involved in the production of drones. We've got
a number of small companies here which are highly accomplished.
I think in a sense the two things are not
mutually exclusive, Heather. By linking up with Ukraine, that may
(04:18):
well provide lots of opportunities for companies which were already very,
very accomplished in that area. If you see what I mean,
as I understand it, Ukraine are offering drones which are
militarily orientated, whereas many of our companies have not just
been in the you know, their drone technology has been
(04:41):
less military focused, as I understand.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Tell me, Robert, what are we because your mate who
you quoted before said basically we need to get chuck
the billion dollars at the drones because there's going to
be a world war. But realistically, are we actually going
to end up in a situation where we are fighting
to defend ourselves in New Zealand Because the most likely
thing that's going to happen in our part of the
world as China takes Taiwan, and where I'm going to
be able to stop that. So what's the risk to us?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Well, my crystal boar is no better than anyone else's.
I don't think world war is around the corner myself.
Lots of I've heard the Foreign Minister saying this is
the most dangerous situation the last eighty years. I disagree.
There were far more dangerous situations during the Cold War.
People were memories of the Cold War, sixty two, Cuban
Missile crisis, etc. There are least three occasions in the
(05:27):
Cold War when the world was seating on the brink
of nuclear armageddon. We're not facing those sort of threats
at the moment. That having said that, there's lots of
alarming situations both in Ukraine and now in Iran, So
there is definitely the potential for escalation. But you know,
with regard to New Zealand, I do think it makes
(05:47):
sense to boost our defense capability irrespective of the prospect
of war, because increasingly security problems have to be sold
by on a multilateral basis and we need about bring
something to the party if we're going to make a
contribution to secure our environment.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Good stuff. Hey, thank you very much Robert for taking
the time to explain it all to us. It's Robert Patman,
international relations professor.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
The Ukrainian ambassadors is he wants New Zealand to buy
drone technology off Ukraine. Ukraine's approached New Zealand and also
Australia to try to strike a deal which would see
their tech added to our weapons arsenal. They've already struck
four similar deals so far with Germany, Canada, Norway and Japan.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Now.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Robert Patman is an international relations professor at Otago University
and with us HI.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Robert oh good evening. Healla, so what are the.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Ukrainians up to? Are they seeing this as making money
off their expertise.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I don't think they're up to anything. They're doing what
most countries do when they've become a world leader in
drone technology, and their drone the drone technology they produced
has been, from a museum point of view, a bit
of a number eight wire production. That is to say
that they improvised under extreme circumstances of the Russian invasion.
(00:50):
And I think what was striking is that, of course
they went to the assistance of some of the Golf
states following Iran's retaliatory strikes on Golf states, and they've
signed a number of deals there. So I think what
they're trying to do is what most countries would do,
which is capitalized on becoming a world leader in a
particular area, which is becoming crucial for conflict. I mean,
(01:12):
drones have revolutionized war as we know it now.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
If I read it correctly, it sounds like the Ukrainian
ambassador has approached our government now on a number of occasions,
maybe as many as three, and they still not had
any luck with US. Is that weird from US?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
No, I think we're just honoring the decision. I don't
think there's any you know, the government said that a
decision was they had received an approach in December and
they were still considering it. You know, the government is
pledged to spend up to two percent of GDP on defense,
(01:49):
and this is a big increase, and I think they're
trying to make sure they spend that money wisely. I
do think what the Ukrainians are doing, though, is symptomatic
of the fact that many new players Middle powers such
as Ukraine and Sweden are becoming. They're producing military equipment
which is cheaper and certainly competitive with the sort of
(02:11):
military equipment that US and China are producing.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Should we buy dromes? I mean I saw one analyst
said we should check a billion dollars at it.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, I mean doctor del Kalini, I think made that recommendation,
and I can see where he's coming from. I'm not
sure world wars around the corner, though, I think we
should be looking seriously into doing this because it seems
to me that drones have you know, they have multiple uses,
and it seems to me that that would be smart
(02:42):
looking forward, linking up with countries like Ukraine and Sweden
using their technology, diversifying our defense links and maximizing our
defense capabilities, I suppose would be the ideal. But look
drone technology. If you look at ninety the scent of
Russian casualties in the last few months have been caused
(03:05):
by drones. So there's no doubt about it. Drones have
revolutionized our thinking about war, particularly things like tanks and
naval vessels, which increasingly look very vulnerable with this technology.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Well, quite right, and so if we are spending all
of our money on frigates, for example, would we not
be making the mistake of investing in what is essentially
old technology and very vulnerable technology when it's moved on
and we should be putting our money in this.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Well, I don't think it's neither or I think what
you're saying though, is that a correct balance has to
be struck. How that balance is managed is obviously for
the defense planners, but it does seem to me we
can't ignore the fact that war has been revolutionized by
drones and there's no going back. You can't put the
(03:52):
genie back in the box. No.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I was under the impression though that we were actually
also very good at making drones. Was I wrong?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
We are, Yes, We've got for the last ten years
we've been involved in the production of drones. We've got
a number of small companies here which are highly accomplished.
I think in a sense the two things are not
mutually exclusive, Heather. By linking up with Ukraine, that may
(04:18):
well provide lots of opportunities for companies which were already very,
very accomplished in that area. If you see what I mean,
as I understand it, Ukraine are offering drones which are
militarily orientated, whereas many of our companies have not just
been in the you know, their drone technology has been
(04:41):
less military focused, as I understand.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Tell me, Robert, what are we because your mate who
you quoted before said basically we need to get chuck
the billion dollars at the drones because there's going to
be a world war. But realistically, are we actually going
to end up in a situation where we are fighting
to defend ourselves in New Zealand Because the most likely
thing that's going to happen in our part of the
world as China takes Taiwan, and where I'm going to
be able to stop that. So what's the risk to us?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Well, my crystal boar is no better than anyone else's.
I don't think world war is around the corner myself.
Lots of I've heard the Foreign Minister saying this is
the most dangerous situation the last eighty years. I disagree.
There were far more dangerous situations during the Cold War.
People were memories of the Cold War, sixty two, Cuban
Missile crisis, etc. There are least three occasions in the
(05:27):
Cold War when the world was seating on the brink
of nuclear armageddon. We're not facing those sort of threats
at the moment. That having said that, there's lots of
alarming situations both in Ukraine and now in Iran, So
there is definitely the potential for escalation. But you know,
with regard to New Zealand, I do think it makes
(05:47):
sense to boost our defense capability irrespective of the prospect
of war, because increasingly security problems have to be sold
by on a multilateral basis and we need about bring
something to the party if we're going to make a
contribution to secure our environment.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Good stuff. Hey, thank you very much Robert for taking
the time to explain it all to us. It's Robert Patman,
international relations professor.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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