Sir Brian Roche: Public Service Commissioner on the Government's plan to cut 9000 public service jobs over the next three years

The Public Service Commissioner says deep cuts to the public service may seem dramatic, but the problem's built up over a long time.

The Finance Minister says about 8700 staff will go by mid-2029, and most agencies' operating budgets will progressively reduce in coming years. 

Sir Brian Roche says cutting staffing down to 55,000 brings it to about one percent of the population. 

He says cuts and finding efficiencies should be more constant. 

"We only seem to reform ourselves every 30 or 40 years, we actually need to get much more cotemporary and dynamic in the way we think about organisations." 

LISTEN ABOVE

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Right now though, still on the subject of the public
service cuts, we have the man in charge of it also,
Brian wrote, who is the Public Service Commissioner?

Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hello Brian, Hello, good afternoon.

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Okay, Now, is there a plan here that is greater
than just we're putting a cap and we're going to
do some amalgamation and we're going to figure it out
in the next three years.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
Yea, there is. I mean the intent of the plan
is actually to improve the quality, equality and timeliness of
the service proposition to New Zealand citizens and taxpayers. We've
been on this journey for a long time. The announcements
yesterday are very very important because they send very strong
message to us public servants about what's expected of us.

(00:38):
We are up for the challenge and the opportunity ahead
of us.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
Okay, So why fifty five thousand that seems arbitrary?

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Now, fifty five represents one percent of the New Zealand population.
That was a reference point which existed as I understand it,
through to twenty seventeen. So it does have a degree
of relevance, in a degree of integrity, and that is
the target that we're now aiming for, because why would
we represent greater than one percent. In fact, the argument

(01:08):
is could we be better and less than one percent?
And that's something we're going to discover.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
Quite right. But why one percent? I mean that seems arbitrary.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
It does, but it's good to have a reference point
because that is what we've achieved in the past. And
I think there's a much better argument about why wouldn't
you be at one percent? Or why couldn't you be
below one percent? Those are the debates that we're going
to be having over the next few months. Now.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Have you not been thinking about this yourself? Because I
was under the impression you had spent quite a while
thinking about how to do this?

Speaker 2 (01:40):
My right? Correct? I think about this every day. It's
at the heart of the job. It's at the heart
of what I was employed to do. And it's taken
the best part of the year to get the ownership
within the public sector at a chief executive's level about
what the nature of the problem is and what the
solution is. So we feel we know what we need

(02:02):
to do. We're really committed to doing it, and I
think the government has been very clear in their expectations.
I intend to deliver on those expectations now The reason
I ask.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
You that question is then surely in your head there
is more of a plan here than the plan that
was announced yesterday, Like you must have some idea yourself
of what these amalgamations should look like.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
I do. I haven't got all of the answers, humbling
as that sounds, but what I do know is we've
got too many agencies. There's duplication, there's overlap, more people,
as higher transaction costs or quality. The more we can simplify,
the better. I think the Ministry of Cities and Environment

(02:43):
is a very good example of amalgamating four entities. I
think there are other opportunities to do that. We're going
to spend the next few months organizing our thoughts and
there'll be advice to the government.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Are you of the view that you can't do all
of this amalgamation though, unless you tidy up lines of
reporting to ministers so that one agency will only have
one minister to answer to.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
That's sort of beyond my pay grade. To be honest,
I believe that the system can actually reform itself. Let
the ministers in the Prime Minister work out He's been
very clear he'd like to simplify that that would certainly
help us. But I don't think we should wait here
and sit with suboptimal outcomes and lose control of our
own destiny as a public service. We need to actually

(03:29):
respond to the signals and actually pick up the channels.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
What worries me is that we end up with a
bunch of mbs, and mbs are complete shambles when you
think about all the reporting lines to ministers and everything
that's going on in there. Are you worried at all
that you might take three or four smaller and I
sound like I don't like this idea. I do like
this idea, But are you worried that you might take
three or four smaller agencies put them into one big

(03:54):
agency and it kind of loses its efficiency and nimbleness.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, I am. I think MB is not a model
in its current form that I find attractive. I think
that you know, there's an optimal size for organizational form,
so it's got clear focus on core business and stakeholders.
This is sort of part of the problem is we
only seem to reform ourselves every thirty or forty years.

(04:21):
We need to actually get much more sort of contemporary
and dynamic in the way we think about organizations and
how they act as a vehicle to serve as citizens.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
Go on, then, do you want to say something about AI.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
Well, AI is part of the answer, but it's not
the only answer it is. There's no question it will
have a very profound impact on every workplace. The public
sector is no difference. You know, we need to embrace
the opportunity it gives us. But actually, I believe if
we have a really high functioning AI system, the quality

(04:57):
of our human capital will become even more important. So
we're not talking about a wonderful and substitute. I'd like
a lot of the mundane work and some of the
other stuff done by AI so I can extract better
quality from the people that we've got working.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
Brian, thank you for making the time to talk to us.
It's always a pleasure to talk to you. That Sir
Brian Wroache, the Public Service Commissioner. For more from Heather
Duplasy Alan Drive, listen live to news Talks. It'd be
from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.