September 8, 2026 • 10 mins
Tonight on The Huddle, Jordan Williams from the Taxpayers' Union and former Green MP Gareth Hughes joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
Nearly 3,000 people have voiced support in an open letter for growing Bathurst Resources' Stockton site in order to keep operations going and ensuring 289 workers keep their jobs. What do we make of this fight? What could we replace steel with, anyway?
Continuing the climate topic, Chris Hipkins has confirmed Labour will review the Emissions Trading Scheme - and admitted making farmers pay for agricultural emissions probably wouldn't have worked. Do we think this is the right call?
Wellington Zoo needs an extra $14 million for its lion enclosure, and Wellington City Council is expected to foot the bill. Is this worth the money, given the other expenses the council has? Should the zoo be shut down?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the huddle with us this evening, we have Jordan Williams,
Taxpayers Union and Studio, and Gareth Hughes, Director of the
Wellbeing Economy Alliance, a former Green MP. Hello, you two.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Hello, you two. Good evening.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Sorry Wellington's so cold today.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Are you in Wellington too, mate?
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Yeah, at least there's not too much wind.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Is it unusual that you say, I'm so sorry Wellington's
so cold today, like it isn't cold all year except
for two weeks?
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Well, if you're in Auckland, it probably does feel cold
all year, but today's been particularly cold. I've even got
the heat pump on at the moment.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Well, I actually thought it was pleasant out there.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
It's bloody great here in Auckland and I've battled traffic
to come in and see you, Heather. I'm sitting in
your seat. Your producers put me in charge and they've
told me all the buttons I'm not allowed to push.
And you guys are having a party down there in Wellington.
You deserve the bad weather.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
And like Donald Trump, your finger is hovering above that
button just wanting to push it. Gareth, as somebody who
is worried about the climate, did Jessie's argument convince you
that the community needs to be put before the climate here?
Speaker 3 (01:03):
To be honest, it didn't persuade me, but I think
she understands the writings on the wall for the sector.
It is a sunset industry. She said it's not going
to go on forever. I really feel for Jessie. You know,
I come from Tarata, Gisborne. I still remember when Dad
lost his job at the freezing works and about 900
men lost their jobs overnight. This is why I support
a just transition. We should be actively coming up with
(01:26):
better alternatives, diversifying the economy, like she said, which I
totally agree with. You know, we can't just keep hoping
that mining's going to solve all of our problems. Look,
if mining was the secret to prosperity, towns like Reefton and, say,
Waihi in the would be doing much better than they are.
What we do see is most of the benefits are
(01:47):
captured by a few. They're not actually flowing in to
the wider community.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, miners. Captured by miners.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
What do you say, Jordan?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
My heart breaks listening to that. I'm interested in what
Gareth thinks we're going to make the transition from steel
to what. You know, you need coal to make steel.
Of course, that's the classic talking lines from the Greens,
you know, transition... This is a sunset industry. No, let's
call this for what it is because Jesse was bang on.
It's exporting emissions just because it makes us feel good
(02:20):
if we can't see them. We heard the same today
from Chris Hipkins where he continued this green fetish for
gross emissions rather than accepting that offsetting has a role
and that we should be focused on net emissions because
the path we are on is actually just about closing industry,
(02:45):
destroying communities, and worst of all, actually just sending those
emissions overseas to countries that have far worse environmental and
labour standards.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
I have to point out, Jordan, we do have green hydrogen, right?
That is an alternative to steel, and this is an
exciting opportunity.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
For New Zealand. You need coal for steel.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
No, no, it was being used with green hydrogen overseas
and with our renewable electricity, we could be producing the
green hydrogen. So look, it's not like there aren't alternatives
out there.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Gareth, did you see Chippy's walked away from the plans
to put the old farmers into the agriculture, into the ETS?
And he said the reason he's done it is because
it's just impossible to do. Did you know that?
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Well, I remember being part of a government once upon
a time that actually had that clause in the coalition
agreement with the government.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Were you part of the same government that he was
part of that tried to do it when it was
apparently impossible to do?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Well, that's right.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
I remember back then even Winston Peters was saying that
we needed to bring them in at a reduced rate,
but bring farmers in. Look, I'm sure Jordan's going to
totally agree with me on this one, which is we
need to bring agriculture in because it's half of our emissions, right?
We've got to pay for the credits to cover those emissions.
So what it means is it's everyday citizens like you
and me and taxpayers who are having to pick up
(04:00):
the bill, pick up the tab for farmers. So a
colleague of mine was at the Climate and Business Conference
today where Chippy was talking. And yeah, look, I'm pretty underwhelmed.
They described it as an action policy. Really what they've
announced is another, they quote, urgent review. Look, we've had reviews, commissions,
inquiries for decades now, and we still see ETS auctions fail.
(04:25):
Our emissions aren't turning the corner. And ultimately, it's ordinary
taxpayers that are picking up the tab. So look, when
you've had three years in opposition, I would have liked
to have seen more detail. And clearly, we've got to
bring agriculture in to the future one day.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Jordan, I want your take, but I'm going to get
it after the break. So stand by. It's quarter to.
You're back with the huddle, Jordan Williams and Gareth Hughes. Jordan,
I think Chippy looks particularly flat today. And I think
it's because of your poll yesterday. What do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Well, he didn't call this one a rogue. Yeah, it
isn't good, is it? Because, of course, he's now where, oh,
he's far worse, actually, than where Christopher Luxon sort of
the first time around had all the leadership speculation. I
think what, the poor Hipkins, though, he can't really put
a foot right. Just this morning, he was on Radio
(05:14):
Pravda with John Campbell saying how much he cared about
the cost of living and things, and he can't even
get to midday before he's wanting to put up the
tax that applies on almost everything, which is the ETS.
He's running around saying only one new tax, only one
new tax, and yet he can't get to lunchtime before
(05:36):
he opens his mouth and wants to hike the cost
of living or the ETS that applies to almost everything.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
I think, Gareth, that this is the start of the collapse.
What do you think, for Labour?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Well, there's still plenty of, you know, time for both sides.
It's been incredibly close. It has been a battle of
the blocs. So, look, I think no one's going to
leave stuff on the field, as it were, you know.
There's everything to play for. Polls have been flip-flopping.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
It's good for the Greens, though. I mean, doing the
call round Sunday night to the various chiefs of staff
and party leaders, it was actually quite, you know, the
Greens were pretty happy with this one. And it's the
two extremes. Well, they've been hysterical Acton Greens are going
up at the expense of the parties in the middle,
it seems.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Yeah, and I mean, that's the big story, right? Both
parties now polling under 30% each. You know, historically, when
Labour does well, the Greens do less well, and vice versa.
So I'm not surprised the Greens are going up. But yeah,
I mean, they're polling less than what they were at
the last election. That's not a good sign nine weeks
out from the election.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Who is the number 18 on the Greens list?
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Ooh, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Do you know Jordan?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
No, but I asked last night. I asked on Sunday night.
They need to pack their bags. Gareth, will you come back?
What number are you?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Well, I'm not standing. I love my non-partisan, independent work
at the moment.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Gareth, have you been to the Wellington Zoo recently with
your kids?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
No, not recently, but I did take my kids when
they were younger. They're both teenagers now. They wouldn't want
to hang out with me anyway.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
No, they wouldn't want to go to the zoo with
you at all. They'd go to the zoo with their
girlfriends and boyfriends. Now, do you remember whether it seemed
tired to you? Because apparently they need $ 14 million for
the lion pen.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Yeah, this seems quite a lot of money, right? So
that's $ 7 million per lion. And I remember the last
time I went there seeing the giraffe and thinking it
was a bit off because it was a pretty small enclosure.
They didn't look particularly happy. And I wonder if maybe
there is no future for lions, unfortunately, at Wellington Zoo. Unfortunately,
(07:42):
because I know kids love them. But look, this isn't
an endangered species. This is a huge amount of money.
The city's got really big problems. $ 7 million per lion.
We could help an awful lot of people with that
equivalent money.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah, I wonder, Jordan, if this isn't a case where
they may have to sell the lions to another zoo
or something like that. What do you think?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I would have been a little bit careful. Some previous
staff of mine, once really got us in it because
they were making the argument that when the penguin washed
up on shore in Wellington, and was it a dolphin
or something, that they were literally campaigning to first not
name it because once you name it, you have to
look after it. And they become dependent on the taxpayer.
(08:23):
And so somehow the taxpayers' union were now championing to
euthanise these cute animals. When I first saw this, no,
I'm going to be pro-Lion, but $ 14 million. When Gareth
is saying this is not worth the money, I think it's,
I venture to suggest that it's seriously not worth the money.
(08:45):
But it's just so great that everything is going so
well in Wellington, in Wellington City Council, that they can
spare $ 14.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Million for it.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
I don't know if you've heard it, but Wellington is-
Jelena and Sadiqa.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yeah, they're really rich in Wellington.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Well, the Lions are.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Well, yeah. And the people are as well. And Wellington
hasn't got any infrastructure problems like the rest of the country.
So all of their money can go to the zoo, basically.
They can have these nice things. Did you know that, Jordan?
Speaker 2 (09:13):
This is what paradise looks like.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Except the weather, apparently.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Oh, hey, very quickly, Gareth. Okay, this is really quickly.
Do we get rid of our postal system if dead
ladies are voting?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Well, look.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Electronic voting has massive security concerns, but if we're leaving
ballots literally in letterboxes that people can pick up, I
think that's an even bigger security concern. I'd love to
move to what we do for central government, right? There
is a voting day where you can rock up to
the school and cast your ballot, maybe a two-week advance
voting period. Postal voting was meant to, you know, increase turnout.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
I said quickly, I said quickly. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
That's enough. Jordan, what do you say?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
He's agreeing with the taxpayers' union. Something's going wrong. A
letterbox will never be as secure as a ballot box
if only we had a stronger. Minister of Local Government
that would have followed through on Nick Smith's electoral reform group.
It was the one thing that LGNZ got right. Even
a broken clock's right twice a day. That called for
a return to secure in-person voting 18 months ago and
(10:14):
they've done nothing. How much evidence do you need?
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah, too right. Dead people voting, not a good look.
Hey guys, thank you so much. Sheldon Williams, Gareth Hughes,
and it's seven away from six.
On the huddle with us this evening, we have Jordan Williams,
Taxpayers Union and Studio, and Gareth Hughes, Director of the
Wellbeing Economy Alliance, a former Green MP. Hello, you two.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Hello, you two. Good evening.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Sorry Wellington's so cold today.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Are you in Wellington too, mate?
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Yeah, at least there's not too much wind.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Is it unusual that you say, I'm so sorry Wellington's
so cold today, like it isn't cold all year except
for two weeks?
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Well, if you're in Auckland, it probably does feel cold
all year, but today's been particularly cold. I've even got
the heat pump on at the moment.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Well, I actually thought it was pleasant out there.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
It's bloody great here in Auckland and I've battled traffic
to come in and see you, Heather. I'm sitting in
your seat. Your producers put me in charge and they've
told me all the buttons I'm not allowed to push.
And you guys are having a party down there in Wellington.
You deserve the bad weather.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
And like Donald Trump, your finger is hovering above that
button just wanting to push it. Gareth, as somebody who
is worried about the climate, did Jessie's argument convince you
that the community needs to be put before the climate here?
Speaker 3 (01:03):
To be honest, it didn't persuade me, but I think
she understands the writings on the wall for the sector.
It is a sunset industry. She said it's not going
to go on forever. I really feel for Jessie. You know,
I come from Tarata, Gisborne. I still remember when Dad
lost his job at the freezing works and about 900
men lost their jobs overnight. This is why I support
a just transition. We should be actively coming up with
(01:26):
better alternatives, diversifying the economy, like she said, which I
totally agree with. You know, we can't just keep hoping
that mining's going to solve all of our problems. Look,
if mining was the secret to prosperity, towns like Reefton and, say,
Waihi in the would be doing much better than they are.
What we do see is most of the benefits are
(01:47):
captured by a few. They're not actually flowing in to
the wider community.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, miners. Captured by miners.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
What do you say, Jordan?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
My heart breaks listening to that. I'm interested in what
Gareth thinks we're going to make the transition from steel
to what. You know, you need coal to make steel.
Of course, that's the classic talking lines from the Greens,
you know, transition... This is a sunset industry. No, let's
call this for what it is because Jesse was bang on.
It's exporting emissions just because it makes us feel good
(02:20):
if we can't see them. We heard the same today
from Chris Hipkins where he continued this green fetish for
gross emissions rather than accepting that offsetting has a role
and that we should be focused on net emissions because
the path we are on is actually just about closing industry,
(02:45):
destroying communities, and worst of all, actually just sending those
emissions overseas to countries that have far worse environmental and
labour standards.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
I have to point out, Jordan, we do have green hydrogen, right?
That is an alternative to steel, and this is an
exciting opportunity.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
For New Zealand. You need coal for steel.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
No, no, it was being used with green hydrogen overseas
and with our renewable electricity, we could be producing the
green hydrogen. So look, it's not like there aren't alternatives
out there.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Gareth, did you see Chippy's walked away from the plans
to put the old farmers into the agriculture, into the ETS?
And he said the reason he's done it is because
it's just impossible to do. Did you know that?
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Well, I remember being part of a government once upon
a time that actually had that clause in the coalition
agreement with the government.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Were you part of the same government that he was
part of that tried to do it when it was
apparently impossible to do?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Well, that's right.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
I remember back then even Winston Peters was saying that
we needed to bring them in at a reduced rate,
but bring farmers in. Look, I'm sure Jordan's going to
totally agree with me on this one, which is we
need to bring agriculture in because it's half of our emissions, right?
We've got to pay for the credits to cover those emissions.
So what it means is it's everyday citizens like you
and me and taxpayers who are having to pick up
(04:00):
the bill, pick up the tab for farmers. So a
colleague of mine was at the Climate and Business Conference
today where Chippy was talking. And yeah, look, I'm pretty underwhelmed.
They described it as an action policy. Really what they've
announced is another, they quote, urgent review. Look, we've had reviews, commissions,
inquiries for decades now, and we still see ETS auctions fail.
(04:25):
Our emissions aren't turning the corner. And ultimately, it's ordinary
taxpayers that are picking up the tab. So look, when
you've had three years in opposition, I would have liked
to have seen more detail. And clearly, we've got to
bring agriculture in to the future one day.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Jordan, I want your take, but I'm going to get
it after the break. So stand by. It's quarter to.
You're back with the huddle, Jordan Williams and Gareth Hughes. Jordan,
I think Chippy looks particularly flat today. And I think
it's because of your poll yesterday. What do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Well, he didn't call this one a rogue. Yeah, it
isn't good, is it? Because, of course, he's now where, oh,
he's far worse, actually, than where Christopher Luxon sort of
the first time around had all the leadership speculation. I
think what, the poor Hipkins, though, he can't really put
a foot right. Just this morning, he was on Radio
(05:14):
Pravda with John Campbell saying how much he cared about
the cost of living and things, and he can't even
get to midday before he's wanting to put up the
tax that applies on almost everything, which is the ETS.
He's running around saying only one new tax, only one
new tax, and yet he can't get to lunchtime before
(05:36):
he opens his mouth and wants to hike the cost
of living or the ETS that applies to almost everything.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
I think, Gareth, that this is the start of the collapse.
What do you think, for Labour?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Well, there's still plenty of, you know, time for both sides.
It's been incredibly close. It has been a battle of
the blocs. So, look, I think no one's going to
leave stuff on the field, as it were, you know.
There's everything to play for. Polls have been flip-flopping.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
It's good for the Greens, though. I mean, doing the
call round Sunday night to the various chiefs of staff
and party leaders, it was actually quite, you know, the
Greens were pretty happy with this one. And it's the
two extremes. Well, they've been hysterical Acton Greens are going
up at the expense of the parties in the middle,
it seems.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Yeah, and I mean, that's the big story, right? Both
parties now polling under 30% each. You know, historically, when
Labour does well, the Greens do less well, and vice versa.
So I'm not surprised the Greens are going up. But yeah,
I mean, they're polling less than what they were at
the last election. That's not a good sign nine weeks
out from the election.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Who is the number 18 on the Greens list?
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Ooh, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Do you know Jordan?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
No, but I asked last night. I asked on Sunday night.
They need to pack their bags. Gareth, will you come back?
What number are you?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Well, I'm not standing. I love my non-partisan, independent work
at the moment.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Gareth, have you been to the Wellington Zoo recently with
your kids?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
No, not recently, but I did take my kids when
they were younger. They're both teenagers now. They wouldn't want
to hang out with me anyway.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
No, they wouldn't want to go to the zoo with
you at all. They'd go to the zoo with their
girlfriends and boyfriends. Now, do you remember whether it seemed
tired to you? Because apparently they need $ 14 million for
the lion pen.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Yeah, this seems quite a lot of money, right? So
that's $ 7 million per lion. And I remember the last
time I went there seeing the giraffe and thinking it
was a bit off because it was a pretty small enclosure.
They didn't look particularly happy. And I wonder if maybe
there is no future for lions, unfortunately, at Wellington Zoo. Unfortunately,
(07:42):
because I know kids love them. But look, this isn't
an endangered species. This is a huge amount of money.
The city's got really big problems. $ 7 million per lion.
We could help an awful lot of people with that
equivalent money.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah, I wonder, Jordan, if this isn't a case where
they may have to sell the lions to another zoo
or something like that. What do you think?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I would have been a little bit careful. Some previous
staff of mine, once really got us in it because
they were making the argument that when the penguin washed
up on shore in Wellington, and was it a dolphin
or something, that they were literally campaigning to first not
name it because once you name it, you have to
look after it. And they become dependent on the taxpayer.
(08:23):
And so somehow the taxpayers' union were now championing to
euthanise these cute animals. When I first saw this, no,
I'm going to be pro-Lion, but $ 14 million. When Gareth
is saying this is not worth the money, I think it's,
I venture to suggest that it's seriously not worth the money.
(08:45):
But it's just so great that everything is going so
well in Wellington, in Wellington City Council, that they can
spare $ 14.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Million for it.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
I don't know if you've heard it, but Wellington is-
Jelena and Sadiqa.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yeah, they're really rich in Wellington.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Well, the Lions are.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Well, yeah. And the people are as well. And Wellington
hasn't got any infrastructure problems like the rest of the country.
So all of their money can go to the zoo, basically.
They can have these nice things. Did you know that, Jordan?
Speaker 2 (09:13):
This is what paradise looks like.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Except the weather, apparently.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Oh, hey, very quickly, Gareth. Okay, this is really quickly.
Do we get rid of our postal system if dead
ladies are voting?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Well, look.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Electronic voting has massive security concerns, but if we're leaving
ballots literally in letterboxes that people can pick up, I
think that's an even bigger security concern. I'd love to
move to what we do for central government, right? There
is a voting day where you can rock up to
the school and cast your ballot, maybe a two-week advance
voting period. Postal voting was meant to, you know, increase turnout.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
I said quickly, I said quickly. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
That's enough. Jordan, what do you say?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
He's agreeing with the taxpayers' union. Something's going wrong. A
letterbox will never be as secure as a ballot box
if only we had a stronger. Minister of Local Government
that would have followed through on Nick Smith's electoral reform group.
It was the one thing that LGNZ got right. Even
a broken clock's right twice a day. That called for
a return to secure in-person voting 18 months ago and
(10:14):
they've done nothing. How much evidence do you need?
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah, too right. Dead people voting, not a good look.
Hey guys, thank you so much. Sheldon Williams, Gareth Hughes,
and it's seven away from six.
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