May 11, 2026 • 10 mins
Tonight on The Huddle, Trish Sherson from Sherson Willis PR and Child Fund CEO Josie Pagani joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
Mariameno Kapa-Kingi has left Te Pāti Māori to start a new party. Is this the beginning of the end for them? What do we think?
Does New Zealand have to worry about far-right populism sweeping through the nation? Between Reform and One Nation, do we see New Zealand getting its own counterpart?
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Twenty one away from six the Huddle with New Zealand
Southeby's International Realty, a name you can trust locally and globally.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
On that hold on, excuse me.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
High with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty, the only truly global.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Brand private Again on the Huddle, we have Tris Shurson, Sharson,
Willis pr and Joe Spagani, Child Fund Chief Executive. Hello
you do Hello?
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Hello? I hope you're wearing a mask. Heaver sneezing everywhere.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Well, no, it was that was one of those ones, Josie,
where you go to breathe and you just like swallow
your own spit down your air hold. I know, I
wouldn't want you to think I have Hunter virus, though,
It's more like I'm trying to suffocate myself with saliva. Anyway, Trisha,
tell me what you make of the Maori Party. What
do you think is going on here? Is this the
start of the end? Is this the collapse?
Speaker 4 (00:48):
I think this is proving that old adage and it goes.
It's proof that it goes across any party that voters
absolutely punish disunity. The Maori Party has looked like as
shambles now for four months, and then I think there's
something more important that's underpinning it and what they will
(01:09):
be punished for. It is the way that the likes
of Mario Mno Kappa Kingi have been attacked from within
her party. From what I hear from people, that is
just not the way. It's not the way that Marii
voters want to see their MPs are treated or disrespected.
(01:31):
And then I think the other interesting point about this
is it shows the difference between trying to control a
party and trying to control a movement. And don't forget
when we had the what we're probably the biggest protests
of our time, which were the Toytu Tatility protest led
(01:53):
by the young Hannah Mapi Clark and Maria Muno's son.
One of the call to actions from that whole protest
was sign up to the Marti role. Increase our power,
increase our power for the Marty Party. The question now
is where are those for those people who have signed
(02:15):
up expecting to vote for to party Maori, where is
that support going to go? Because I don't think in
the absence of those key MPs, I don't think that
support will be there.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, Well, it's hard to see it going to labor.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
What do you think, Josie, Well, I think Dawari White
to see and Debbie nawaa packer. I think they'll both
win their seats no matter what. Probably, So if one
of them wins their seat, I don't think they won't
get anywhere near five percent again, So I don't think
they're gone. Heather. I don't think this is the end
of party Mary. But I think what's happening is not
actually a bad thing. I think it's quite healthy for
(02:50):
Marty politics. And we've seen this all the way through
the year that it's fracturing and splintering along different kind
of ideological lines. And you know, we wouldn't have to
party Pakia, would we. So this is this is a
good thing. And so I think it's splintering along those
in Mary than who think that okay, we can have
a bicultural reform, we can adapt partier institutions, you're you know,
(03:14):
New Zealand institutions to help Mary, or we create Mari
institutions and devolve to Mary institutions. Then you've got young Mary,
the Kohunger generation, who are more radical than older Mary,
who and about a third of older Mary are actually
identifying as center rights, so they would see themselves as
(03:35):
sort of pretty disengagement politics at all. So you've got
that splinter. And then now we've got with which is
really interesting with Miriam Minner is that she's putting forward
actually a very local party. So as you said to Taitokuro,
so the Northern Mari electorate. So then you know, you
kind of go, well, maybe that's not a bad thing,
and maybe we could do that in all our parties
(03:57):
rather than having party lists, maybe we need more dependent
MPs who stand for their electorate and get into parliament. Yes,
so you're seeing this split too, So I think it's
really interesting if.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
Mary Munno pulls this off. Remember in New Zealand it's
highly unusual to come in as an independent MP. She
has very strong support in Te tay Tokuro, so she could,
in my view, she could take it out. I think
what the current leaders of TO Party Maori have struggled
to do is what Dame tari Anaturia and Pitta Sharples did.
(04:32):
They understood that being in parliament is about using that
machinery to create a legacy and really drive for change.
They were conviction politicians and what you saw with the
likes of Farno Order they were a huge policy win
for to Party Malori and they were probably focused in
(04:53):
the place that a lot of their voters felt was
most valuable. These leaders have continued to be activists and
they are not, in my view, interested in using the
machinery of government for GM.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
And the other thing we've got Trisha's is you know
you cannot dismiss the Mari factor in New Zealand first,
although interestingly, you know, a lot of the sort of
party our elite and Wellington would like to see the
likes of Winston Peters and Shane Jones and even David
Seymour as in authentic Mary voices. Well, I think what
you're also seeing there is another alternative for Mary voters,
(05:26):
which is regional development jobs. And they're all nationalists, you know,
it's all kind of nations stuff as well. So you
know there's an anti immigration strand through that too, but
not nearly as badly as it was in New Zealand
first in the nineties. So Mary has got a lot
of choices now and I think that's a really positive thing.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
All Right, we'll take a break might come back actually
and talk about that stuff with the populism in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Versus the Huddle with New Zealand Souderby's international realty, a
name you can trust locally and globally.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
We write you back with the Huddle. Joseph A. Ganei
and trishus and Josie do you think that Winston Peters
all to what extent do you think Winston Peters will
benefit from the right wing populism that's sweeping Australia and
the UK at the moment.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
I don't think the situations are the same. I know
that there's a you know, we just talked about it,
an anti immigration strand in New Zealand first at the moment,
but it's nothing like New Zealand first rhetoric the in
the nineties where it was a lot more about anti immigration,
and I don't I mean most people look at it
and they look at Shane Jones and they think, I
don't really think you believe in this anti immigration stuff.
(06:29):
So yes, they do have that popular strand of economically
quite left wing, I mean economically talking about you know,
government intervening to the market to create manufacturing, regional developments
and so on, and then quite conservative socially. But I
would say that's actually quite a mainstream center right view. Really,
(06:50):
I don't think we've got the same populism. And if
you look at the UK and Australia just this weekend,
you know that those elections aren't earthquakes, more like aftershocks.
So they're telling you that those populations, particularly in the
UK where immigration and refugee crisis has been a big
issue and you can date that back to twenty ten
(07:13):
and Syria where you suddenly had this influx of refugees
into Europe. So that's a very particular situation. And I
do think you know, when you've got the mainstream parties dresting,
that's the only risk I would see here. We've got
national and labor both kind of you know, a bit
bla when mainstream parties dressed popular silver void. But I
(07:34):
don't think we're seeing that yet here. But it's a
wake up called of those mainstream parties to see more.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Should we just call it out for what it is, Trish,
which is what is going on with one nation is
anti Muslim. What's going on with reform is in part
anti Muslim, And we don't have those tensions here in
this country to the extent that they do, so it
just will not work here.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
I agree with that. I mean, that's certainly what Faraj
and Senator Hanson have been, you know, fomenting, haven't they.
They have really gone after those populations as a way
to lift their message. I would say the way i'd
phrase this, I would say that it is anti incumbent
(08:17):
populism with a hard right edge. So voters in those
countries haven't suddenly woken up and suddenly been ideological and gone,
oh where all right wingers now what they are grumping about,
and Josie just alluded to it. They are grumpy with
the mainstream parties who just don't seem to be able
to get on and fix what's making voters grumpy. And importantly,
(08:42):
voters keep waking up every morning and going, my life
is not materially better and you've promised me it will be.
So they are punishing them.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Grumpiness exists yere, doesn't it.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
So that's very much. Yeah, that very much does.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Yeah. The risk here is not so much the sort
of anti Muslim, anti immigration thing. The risk is exactly
what you said, Trash, is that if you look back
at the Brexit boat in the UK, it wasn't just
about immigration. It was also about a cry for a
better economic model, a sort of anti globalization and a
sort of nation state flag waving. Really, where you go,
(09:20):
my community is broken. I don't you know, we don't
have the same things that pull us together, like going
to church or the sports club. I don't have a
sense of place. All of that, that lack of delivery
is going to really could exacerbate a sort of populist
reaction in New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
And I think that's where, yeah, that's where Winston Raymond
Peters is focusing his energies. As you've said on the
show here that we've had these headline policies around big
industries that are simply nuts and won't work and in
fact will cause higher prices. But alfran O Sullivan actually
(09:59):
did a really great column. I think it was not
this weekend, the one before last. She actually pointed out
though the problem for national is that those get cut through,
and she really spoke to this that it's it's about
reflecting the anger and the frustration and the and the
you know, the the empty wallet. At the end of
the week that New Zealand families are facing and that
(10:21):
that's where Winston is winning up against national and labor.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I agree with you. Hey, thanks ladies, both of you
really appreciate it. Trusherson and jose BCGANI our Hutle this evening.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive. Listen live to
News Talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
Twenty one away from six the Huddle with New Zealand
Southeby's International Realty, a name you can trust locally and globally.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
On that hold on, excuse me.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
High with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty, the only truly global.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Brand private Again on the Huddle, we have Tris Shurson, Sharson,
Willis pr and Joe Spagani, Child Fund Chief Executive. Hello
you do Hello?
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Hello? I hope you're wearing a mask. Heaver sneezing everywhere.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Well, no, it was that was one of those ones, Josie,
where you go to breathe and you just like swallow
your own spit down your air hold. I know, I
wouldn't want you to think I have Hunter virus, though,
It's more like I'm trying to suffocate myself with saliva. Anyway, Trisha,
tell me what you make of the Maori Party. What
do you think is going on here? Is this the
start of the end? Is this the collapse?
Speaker 4 (00:48):
I think this is proving that old adage and it goes.
It's proof that it goes across any party that voters
absolutely punish disunity. The Maori Party has looked like as
shambles now for four months, and then I think there's
something more important that's underpinning it and what they will
(01:09):
be punished for. It is the way that the likes
of Mario Mno Kappa Kingi have been attacked from within
her party. From what I hear from people, that is
just not the way. It's not the way that Marii
voters want to see their MPs are treated or disrespected.
(01:31):
And then I think the other interesting point about this
is it shows the difference between trying to control a
party and trying to control a movement. And don't forget
when we had the what we're probably the biggest protests
of our time, which were the Toytu Tatility protest led
(01:53):
by the young Hannah Mapi Clark and Maria Muno's son.
One of the call to actions from that whole protest
was sign up to the Marti role. Increase our power,
increase our power for the Marty Party. The question now
is where are those for those people who have signed
(02:15):
up expecting to vote for to party Maori, where is
that support going to go? Because I don't think in
the absence of those key MPs, I don't think that
support will be there.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, Well, it's hard to see it going to labor.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
What do you think, Josie, Well, I think Dawari White
to see and Debbie nawaa packer. I think they'll both
win their seats no matter what. Probably, So if one
of them wins their seat, I don't think they won't
get anywhere near five percent again, So I don't think
they're gone. Heather. I don't think this is the end
of party Mary. But I think what's happening is not
actually a bad thing. I think it's quite healthy for
(02:50):
Marty politics. And we've seen this all the way through
the year that it's fracturing and splintering along different kind
of ideological lines. And you know, we wouldn't have to
party Pakia, would we. So this is this is a
good thing. And so I think it's splintering along those
in Mary than who think that okay, we can have
a bicultural reform, we can adapt partier institutions, you're you know,
(03:14):
New Zealand institutions to help Mary, or we create Mari
institutions and devolve to Mary institutions. Then you've got young Mary,
the Kohunger generation, who are more radical than older Mary,
who and about a third of older Mary are actually
identifying as center rights, so they would see themselves as
(03:35):
sort of pretty disengagement politics at all. So you've got
that splinter. And then now we've got with which is
really interesting with Miriam Minner is that she's putting forward
actually a very local party. So as you said to Taitokuro,
so the Northern Mari electorate. So then you know, you
kind of go, well, maybe that's not a bad thing,
and maybe we could do that in all our parties
(03:57):
rather than having party lists, maybe we need more dependent
MPs who stand for their electorate and get into parliament. Yes,
so you're seeing this split too, So I think it's
really interesting if.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
Mary Munno pulls this off. Remember in New Zealand it's
highly unusual to come in as an independent MP. She
has very strong support in Te tay Tokuro, so she could,
in my view, she could take it out. I think
what the current leaders of TO Party Maori have struggled
to do is what Dame tari Anaturia and Pitta Sharples did.
(04:32):
They understood that being in parliament is about using that
machinery to create a legacy and really drive for change.
They were conviction politicians and what you saw with the
likes of Farno Order they were a huge policy win
for to Party Malori and they were probably focused in
(04:53):
the place that a lot of their voters felt was
most valuable. These leaders have continued to be activists and
they are not, in my view, interested in using the
machinery of government for GM.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
And the other thing we've got Trisha's is you know
you cannot dismiss the Mari factor in New Zealand first,
although interestingly, you know, a lot of the sort of
party our elite and Wellington would like to see the
likes of Winston Peters and Shane Jones and even David
Seymour as in authentic Mary voices. Well, I think what
you're also seeing there is another alternative for Mary voters,
(05:26):
which is regional development jobs. And they're all nationalists, you know,
it's all kind of nations stuff as well. So you
know there's an anti immigration strand through that too, but
not nearly as badly as it was in New Zealand
first in the nineties. So Mary has got a lot
of choices now and I think that's a really positive thing.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
All Right, we'll take a break might come back actually
and talk about that stuff with the populism in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Versus the Huddle with New Zealand Souderby's international realty, a
name you can trust locally and globally.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
We write you back with the Huddle. Joseph A. Ganei
and trishus and Josie do you think that Winston Peters
all to what extent do you think Winston Peters will
benefit from the right wing populism that's sweeping Australia and
the UK at the moment.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
I don't think the situations are the same. I know
that there's a you know, we just talked about it,
an anti immigration strand in New Zealand first at the moment,
but it's nothing like New Zealand first rhetoric the in
the nineties where it was a lot more about anti immigration,
and I don't I mean most people look at it
and they look at Shane Jones and they think, I
don't really think you believe in this anti immigration stuff.
(06:29):
So yes, they do have that popular strand of economically
quite left wing, I mean economically talking about you know,
government intervening to the market to create manufacturing, regional developments
and so on, and then quite conservative socially. But I
would say that's actually quite a mainstream center right view. Really,
(06:50):
I don't think we've got the same populism. And if
you look at the UK and Australia just this weekend,
you know that those elections aren't earthquakes, more like aftershocks.
So they're telling you that those populations, particularly in the
UK where immigration and refugee crisis has been a big
issue and you can date that back to twenty ten
(07:13):
and Syria where you suddenly had this influx of refugees
into Europe. So that's a very particular situation. And I
do think you know, when you've got the mainstream parties dresting,
that's the only risk I would see here. We've got
national and labor both kind of you know, a bit
bla when mainstream parties dressed popular silver void. But I
(07:34):
don't think we're seeing that yet here. But it's a
wake up called of those mainstream parties to see more.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Should we just call it out for what it is, Trish,
which is what is going on with one nation is
anti Muslim. What's going on with reform is in part
anti Muslim, And we don't have those tensions here in
this country to the extent that they do, so it
just will not work here.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
I agree with that. I mean, that's certainly what Faraj
and Senator Hanson have been, you know, fomenting, haven't they.
They have really gone after those populations as a way
to lift their message. I would say the way i'd
phrase this, I would say that it is anti incumbent
(08:17):
populism with a hard right edge. So voters in those
countries haven't suddenly woken up and suddenly been ideological and gone,
oh where all right wingers now what they are grumping about,
and Josie just alluded to it. They are grumpy with
the mainstream parties who just don't seem to be able
to get on and fix what's making voters grumpy. And importantly,
(08:42):
voters keep waking up every morning and going, my life
is not materially better and you've promised me it will be.
So they are punishing them.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Grumpiness exists yere, doesn't it.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
So that's very much. Yeah, that very much does.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Yeah. The risk here is not so much the sort
of anti Muslim, anti immigration thing. The risk is exactly
what you said, Trash, is that if you look back
at the Brexit boat in the UK, it wasn't just
about immigration. It was also about a cry for a
better economic model, a sort of anti globalization and a
sort of nation state flag waving. Really, where you go,
(09:20):
my community is broken. I don't you know, we don't
have the same things that pull us together, like going
to church or the sports club. I don't have a
sense of place. All of that, that lack of delivery
is going to really could exacerbate a sort of populist
reaction in New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
And I think that's where, yeah, that's where Winston Raymond
Peters is focusing his energies. As you've said on the
show here that we've had these headline policies around big
industries that are simply nuts and won't work and in
fact will cause higher prices. But alfran O Sullivan actually
(09:59):
did a really great column. I think it was not
this weekend, the one before last. She actually pointed out
though the problem for national is that those get cut through,
and she really spoke to this that it's it's about
reflecting the anger and the frustration and the and the
you know, the the empty wallet. At the end of
the week that New Zealand families are facing and that
(10:21):
that's where Winston is winning up against national and labor.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I agree with you. Hey, thanks ladies, both of you
really appreciate it. Trusherson and jose BCGANI our Hutle this evening.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive. Listen live to
News Talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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