July 20, 2026 • 9 mins
Tonight on The Huddle, Childfund CEO Josie Pagani and Sherson Willis co-founder Trish Sherson joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
The big topic of debate is the latest election policy announcements out of NZ First and Greens both focusing on drastically different approaches to energy.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty, a name
you can trust locally and globally.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
True Shearson Chason Willis PR Joe Spagani, Child Fund Chief
Executive on the huddle high you two hullo. Both of
you are kind of giggling your way through that. Why
are you giggling? Giggling?
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Well, okay, let's start with the stuff that's good. I
think it's I think the idea of bringing in more
competition is good. So that's about bringing in new generators,
new retailers.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
And so on. Right.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
Good.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I actually like the idea of Kiwi power because I think,
not how else do you balance the need for confidence
and supply confidence in price, and also.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
We just need more generation as well.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
But the stuff that's making both of us giggle is
the idea that you can build a whole lot of
renewables and just completely ignore the science that you do
still need back up to be either gas or coal.
And we're going to be in that reality for a while.
So the greens can wish it away as much as
they want and wander down the garden with the fairies.
(01:00):
In the end, they can't ignore the science and they
might desperately want us to be one hundred percent renewable,
but you have to look at the reality, and the
reality is when we know when solar the wind doesn't blow,
the sun doesn't shine, you don't have it. So the therming,
and she kept getting that wrong too. The firming is
the backup, and the backup has to be something you
(01:22):
can wind up or wind down. So you can't do
that with geothermal. It's a constant run.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
It's stuff that rumbles along wall.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
And the only thing you can do is gas or
call for that at the moment. Now that technology may
change and so on. You'd be far more credible if
you took that reality on board as a Green Party
leader and said we're going to work towards fully renewable
when we can, when the technology allows us. The moment
we can't, so here's how we're going to do it.
So some good stuff there, but some stuff that's just absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Incredible, not in a good way. True.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
I'm just I've run this through my own common sense
evaluator and it's come out with a big so number
one in the same breadth. As Chloe was announcing all
of this, her quote of the day was gas belongs
(02:16):
in the museum. So to Josie's point, they just don't
understand fundamentally how our power and energy system works, especially
when we have potentially when we're looking down the barrel
next year of a very dry year with al Nino. Secondly,
how to fund this and this is one of my
big bug bears. Over the weekend and today with this
(02:39):
announcement and with New Zealand First announcement, once again we
have politicians standing up and saying to taxpayers, we want
to spend a billion dollars of your money so that
this Green's policy is billion dollars. New Zealand firsts you
know a billion dollars map ping wan gamping is a
billion dollars. What they are saying to taxpayers is we
(03:01):
want a billion dollars of your money to pay for
our own cockups to Actually that is the cost of
mistakes of politicians Squad the past, and not only mistakes
of politicians in the past, but in the case of
New Zealand First, mistakes that that party themselves made and
when they stood up and supported the oil and gas band.
So overall it's a it's a big fail for me
(03:23):
and I think While you might think there are some
good things in this, like I am really into I'm
into more solar in New Zealand, that's fine. But when
you have the fundamentals of a policy like this so wrong,
I just simply can't support it.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Can I just say too that they've said the cost
of this at an around about a billion or nine
hundred and thirty million over a certain number of years.
Now they're talking about building another dam. Let's not forget
that like a microdam micro dams.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
So is that like a water tank? What is this?
Speaker 3 (03:52):
And that is trish, that is raising the level of
Lake Topol or Lake Manipuri or something like that, right,
And they're not being honest about that because we're maxed
out on hydro. We're maxed out. So and if they
were going to do another dam, well that's I mean
Lake Onslow. Okay, there's a big project, not a many
little tank, but thirty billion dollars not one billion, thirty billion.
(04:13):
I differ on the n ZE first stuff. I actually
think I've got a different view on that, but not
only that, on the hydro dam. Can you imagine green
supporters supporting any kind of new hydro project, even if
it was the size of a postage stamp.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
I'm not going to support it.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Not about the snails.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
What about the snails and the silt the silk might
blow at people. Hey, I want to hear what you
think of the New Zealand first plan. Let's come back
and take it. We'll just take a really quick break.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
The huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty, the only
truly global.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Brand, thirteen away from sixty. Back of the huddle, Trischerson
and Joseph beginni. Right, Josie, what do you make of
the mapping for a billion dollars?
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Well, I think it is necessary, and I think it's
partly acknowledging, and they're acknowledging they got it wrong, right.
Shane Jones is acknowledging that he shouldn't have stood up there.
He looked booming awkward when he did, when he stood
near to just ininto our donner.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
This is what but this is what I hate the
most about it is he money will knew he shouldn't
have done it, and did it anyway because he horse
traded something and shame on him for that, and so
he will do that again.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Well he's but I think this is you know, it's
the it's the John Oh God who milk Kenes, not
milk kens God whom I'm talking about. Economist Keenes said,
you know, of events change, I changed my mind, and
I think that's exactly what.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Now, explain to me what you've done. We need to
spend a billion dollars on mapping gas. We already know
this gas. We know these eight to nine trillion cubic
meters and peggas is and they're not and people aren't
coming back.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
They're not coming back because they haven't had a government
that said, yep, we are actually going to.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Because we've had a guy put up to a hundred
million dollars for partnership and still didn't bring them back.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
But they need to see that continuousy and they need
to see investment from a government.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Which Josie the billion dollars doesn't fix the fact that
when Meghan gets back in in Labor and Chloe from
the Greens, they shut this all down again. It doesn't
fix the plots.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
So I don't think that will end up there though,
because I think times have changed, and we've had the
war in Iran, we've had straight up homos close up.
People are feeling that they understand the risks and the
trade offs that you pay.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
But we see it because I'm glad that you feel
like that. You're not Meghan Woods. Has Meghan Wood said, Okay,
next time we have to go with we're not going
to do the band.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
But one thing that the Labor Party does really well
is focus group, right, and they're going to focus scrip
the hell out of something like that, and they're going
to find that people are actually supportive of, as you say,
Trish yep, more renewable solo wind yep, let's do it,
but an acknowledgment that you need to have the firming
up be gas or coal, and it's not going to
be biofuels. Let's just call biofuels what they are, charcoal.
(06:42):
You're not going to run the country charge. So I
just think that the public mood has changed, Heather, and
I don't think if labour ged and I don't think
they get away with suddenly shutting down gas in I.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Love your confidence. I don't have as much well.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
And also I think this is back to so so
taxpayers we asked to billion dollars because times times have
now changed, and I think it's completely legitimate as a politician.
We want politicians who listen and change their minds. What
is not legitimate is rewriting your own role in history.
And I feel that's what New Zealand first see.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
That's true. If you change your mind, you've first got
to acknowledge that you got it wrong the first time,
and go yep, I stood up there and I was
bloody uncomfortable and shouldn't have done it, and now I'm
fixing it.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
And also what we haven't seen here and this is
a long line of headline policies from New Zealand. First
once again we're talking about it twenty four hours later,
so good good on them for that. But there is
no cost benefit analysis on spending this billion dollars. What
else could we do in terms of our resilience and
energy supply for that money. The claim about Norway, I
(07:51):
think is incorrect because Norway had a lot of other
fundamentals when it really turned on its own oil and
gas supply, notwithstanding the fact that they knew what was
there and it was ready to go. I do not
think the government should be risking taxpayers money in this
(08:12):
Those oil companies around the world who and gas companies.
They have got huge amounts of money. And once again
I think if I were even you know, listening to
us here, if I were an international company, I go, well,
the one thing that I cannot bank on is that
the political wins won't change again. And so I think
this requires if I were going to put money in
(08:34):
and come back to New Zealand, I would want to
know that across those big major parties at least so
you had a durable consensus. If I invest my money here,
I'm going to have the timeframe, but you can get a.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Ridable consensus through the political debate and mechanism, right. And
that's why I think depending on what happens in the election,
that if New Zealand first get enough votes or if
there's a coalition again comes back in and it's on
for bat of saying we're going to let industry come
in and we're going to let we're going to drill
for gas, then then they'll come back.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Right.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
And if you look at Australia, why are they richer
than us? They save more money and they mind their
minerals and their and their gas.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
And but they've done that consistently. They have, they have
never had a government like we had who just suddenly
and remember how suddenness was.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
I don't think they do that again, though, Trish, I
don't think they get away with it again.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Well but I but that's pretty point. Yeah, we've but
we have been so on and off and I just
think that that oil and Gas band, to me, was
one of the most shocking things for business and investment.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
And tell you what shocking is that halftime show at
FIFA go right, that's when these girls start talking about sport.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
You know, it's absolutely time to tap out. Trishas and
Josephganni the huddle this evening.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
news Talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty, a name
you can trust locally and globally.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
True Shearson Chason Willis PR Joe Spagani, Child Fund Chief
Executive on the huddle high you two hullo. Both of
you are kind of giggling your way through that. Why
are you giggling? Giggling?
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Well, okay, let's start with the stuff that's good. I
think it's I think the idea of bringing in more
competition is good. So that's about bringing in new generators,
new retailers.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
And so on. Right.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
Good.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I actually like the idea of Kiwi power because I think,
not how else do you balance the need for confidence
and supply confidence in price, and also.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
We just need more generation as well.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
But the stuff that's making both of us giggle is
the idea that you can build a whole lot of
renewables and just completely ignore the science that you do
still need back up to be either gas or coal.
And we're going to be in that reality for a while.
So the greens can wish it away as much as
they want and wander down the garden with the fairies.
(01:00):
In the end, they can't ignore the science and they
might desperately want us to be one hundred percent renewable,
but you have to look at the reality, and the
reality is when we know when solar the wind doesn't blow,
the sun doesn't shine, you don't have it. So the therming,
and she kept getting that wrong too. The firming is
the backup, and the backup has to be something you
(01:22):
can wind up or wind down. So you can't do
that with geothermal. It's a constant run.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
It's stuff that rumbles along wall.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
And the only thing you can do is gas or
call for that at the moment. Now that technology may
change and so on. You'd be far more credible if
you took that reality on board as a Green Party
leader and said we're going to work towards fully renewable
when we can, when the technology allows us. The moment
we can't, so here's how we're going to do it.
So some good stuff there, but some stuff that's just absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Incredible, not in a good way. True.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
I'm just I've run this through my own common sense
evaluator and it's come out with a big so number
one in the same breadth. As Chloe was announcing all
of this, her quote of the day was gas belongs
(02:16):
in the museum. So to Josie's point, they just don't
understand fundamentally how our power and energy system works, especially
when we have potentially when we're looking down the barrel
next year of a very dry year with al Nino. Secondly,
how to fund this and this is one of my
big bug bears. Over the weekend and today with this
(02:39):
announcement and with New Zealand First announcement, once again we
have politicians standing up and saying to taxpayers, we want
to spend a billion dollars of your money so that
this Green's policy is billion dollars. New Zealand firsts you
know a billion dollars map ping wan gamping is a
billion dollars. What they are saying to taxpayers is we
(03:01):
want a billion dollars of your money to pay for
our own cockups to Actually that is the cost of
mistakes of politicians Squad the past, and not only mistakes
of politicians in the past, but in the case of
New Zealand First, mistakes that that party themselves made and
when they stood up and supported the oil and gas band.
So overall it's a it's a big fail for me
(03:23):
and I think While you might think there are some
good things in this, like I am really into I'm
into more solar in New Zealand, that's fine. But when
you have the fundamentals of a policy like this so wrong,
I just simply can't support it.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Can I just say too that they've said the cost
of this at an around about a billion or nine
hundred and thirty million over a certain number of years.
Now they're talking about building another dam. Let's not forget
that like a microdam micro dams.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
So is that like a water tank? What is this?
Speaker 3 (03:52):
And that is trish, that is raising the level of
Lake Topol or Lake Manipuri or something like that, right,
And they're not being honest about that because we're maxed
out on hydro. We're maxed out. So and if they
were going to do another dam, well that's I mean
Lake Onslow. Okay, there's a big project, not a many
little tank, but thirty billion dollars not one billion, thirty billion.
(04:13):
I differ on the n ZE first stuff. I actually
think I've got a different view on that, but not
only that, on the hydro dam. Can you imagine green
supporters supporting any kind of new hydro project, even if
it was the size of a postage stamp.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
I'm not going to support it.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Not about the snails.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
What about the snails and the silt the silk might
blow at people. Hey, I want to hear what you
think of the New Zealand first plan. Let's come back
and take it. We'll just take a really quick break.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
The huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty, the only
truly global.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Brand, thirteen away from sixty. Back of the huddle, Trischerson
and Joseph beginni. Right, Josie, what do you make of
the mapping for a billion dollars?
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Well, I think it is necessary, and I think it's
partly acknowledging, and they're acknowledging they got it wrong, right.
Shane Jones is acknowledging that he shouldn't have stood up there.
He looked booming awkward when he did, when he stood
near to just ininto our donner.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
This is what but this is what I hate the
most about it is he money will knew he shouldn't
have done it, and did it anyway because he horse
traded something and shame on him for that, and so
he will do that again.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Well he's but I think this is you know, it's
the it's the John Oh God who milk Kenes, not
milk kens God whom I'm talking about. Economist Keenes said,
you know, of events change, I changed my mind, and
I think that's exactly what.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Now, explain to me what you've done. We need to
spend a billion dollars on mapping gas. We already know
this gas. We know these eight to nine trillion cubic
meters and peggas is and they're not and people aren't
coming back.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
They're not coming back because they haven't had a government
that said, yep, we are actually going to.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Because we've had a guy put up to a hundred
million dollars for partnership and still didn't bring them back.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
But they need to see that continuousy and they need
to see investment from a government.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Which Josie the billion dollars doesn't fix the fact that
when Meghan gets back in in Labor and Chloe from
the Greens, they shut this all down again. It doesn't
fix the plots.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
So I don't think that will end up there though,
because I think times have changed, and we've had the
war in Iran, we've had straight up homos close up.
People are feeling that they understand the risks and the
trade offs that you pay.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
But we see it because I'm glad that you feel
like that. You're not Meghan Woods. Has Meghan Wood said, Okay,
next time we have to go with we're not going
to do the band.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
But one thing that the Labor Party does really well
is focus group, right, and they're going to focus scrip
the hell out of something like that, and they're going
to find that people are actually supportive of, as you say,
Trish yep, more renewable solo wind yep, let's do it,
but an acknowledgment that you need to have the firming
up be gas or coal, and it's not going to
be biofuels. Let's just call biofuels what they are, charcoal.
(06:42):
You're not going to run the country charge. So I
just think that the public mood has changed, Heather, and
I don't think if labour ged and I don't think
they get away with suddenly shutting down gas in I.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Love your confidence. I don't have as much well.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
And also I think this is back to so so
taxpayers we asked to billion dollars because times times have
now changed, and I think it's completely legitimate as a politician.
We want politicians who listen and change their minds. What
is not legitimate is rewriting your own role in history.
And I feel that's what New Zealand first see.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
That's true. If you change your mind, you've first got
to acknowledge that you got it wrong the first time,
and go yep, I stood up there and I was
bloody uncomfortable and shouldn't have done it, and now I'm
fixing it.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
And also what we haven't seen here and this is
a long line of headline policies from New Zealand. First
once again we're talking about it twenty four hours later,
so good good on them for that. But there is
no cost benefit analysis on spending this billion dollars. What
else could we do in terms of our resilience and
energy supply for that money. The claim about Norway, I
(07:51):
think is incorrect because Norway had a lot of other
fundamentals when it really turned on its own oil and
gas supply, notwithstanding the fact that they knew what was
there and it was ready to go. I do not
think the government should be risking taxpayers money in this
(08:12):
Those oil companies around the world who and gas companies.
They have got huge amounts of money. And once again
I think if I were even you know, listening to
us here, if I were an international company, I go, well,
the one thing that I cannot bank on is that
the political wins won't change again. And so I think
this requires if I were going to put money in
(08:34):
and come back to New Zealand, I would want to
know that across those big major parties at least so
you had a durable consensus. If I invest my money here,
I'm going to have the timeframe, but you can get a.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Ridable consensus through the political debate and mechanism, right. And
that's why I think depending on what happens in the election,
that if New Zealand first get enough votes or if
there's a coalition again comes back in and it's on
for bat of saying we're going to let industry come
in and we're going to let we're going to drill
for gas, then then they'll come back.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Right.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
And if you look at Australia, why are they richer
than us? They save more money and they mind their
minerals and their and their gas.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
And but they've done that consistently. They have, they have
never had a government like we had who just suddenly
and remember how suddenness was.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
I don't think they do that again, though, Trish, I
don't think they get away with it again.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Well but I but that's pretty point. Yeah, we've but
we have been so on and off and I just
think that that oil and Gas band, to me, was
one of the most shocking things for business and investment.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
And tell you what shocking is that halftime show at
FIFA go right, that's when these girls start talking about sport.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
You know, it's absolutely time to tap out. Trishas and
Josephganni the huddle this evening.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
news Talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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