March 6, 2026 • 8 mins
Did you know that sunrise and dawn aren’t the same thing? Kevin Milne didn’t!
He made this discovery rather late in life, on a recent family holiday on the East Coast.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack team podcast
from News Talks A B.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Thank you for your messages. Vast numbers of texts have
come in, everyone thinking I'm deluded. Of course, that's right.
Ninety two ninety two is the text number. Lots of
people saying, oh, Jack, oh, you don't know anything about Iran. Yep,
that's probably true. And married to an Iranian refugee, that's right.
My entire and laws. Fleeder ran because of the oppressive regime.
But thank you for that, Jack, You are deluded. There
(00:34):
is no international law, there is no enforcement because the
UN is toothless. I mean, it's true that that the
fact that the Security Council still has the power of
veto means that it's very difficult to get some sort
of a UN mandate. What's interesting, though, like compare it
to Iraq, is that at least with no I shouldn't even
say at least, but with a rack, it's interesting, right,
with a rak, they tried that. They kind of went
(00:56):
through the motions of trying to build a case. They said, oh,
you know, this is it. We've got evidence, this is it,
weapons of mass destruction, et cetera, et cetera. They they
went through the motion, they had the veneer of pursuing legitimacy,
whereas Trump doesn't care about that necessarily. It's just it's
interesting how much has changed over the last twenty two
(01:17):
years or so. I'll get to more of your text
in a couple of minutes. Ninety two ninety two if
you want to send us a number This morning, nineteen
past nine, and Kevin Milne is with us, Kilder Kevin Cyoder.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Yes, I can't imagine how a difficult week it's been,
really and I've been thinking about Marvor and Marver's family,
and yes, you will have some really really interesting insights
into what's going on.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, there's no doubt it's complex
and tricky. Well, I don't think I necessarily am, but
I just you know, it's Yes, I certainly have had
attention on this, on the regime and what it's done
to its people for a long time now, and yeah,
I think it's I think it's possible to both all
(02:01):
the Iranian regime and think that, you know, if if
we are demanding, if we say we believe in the
rules based order, we say we believe in international law
then at the very least demanding the Americans provide some
evidence of an minate threat. I think it's pretty reasonable.
I just think, I mean, I don't think international law,
you know. I think it's a nice lofty ambition. I'm
(02:23):
realistic about the kind of nature of international law and
the UN and everything in this day and age. But
I just point out that New Zealand has nothing else
to lean on, like, we've got absolutely no other levers,
We've got no other cards to play. And I find
it interesting that this year so far, you know, you
think about Mark Karnyon, the rupture in the world order,
and all these kind of grandiose pronouncements about the importance
(02:44):
of the rules based order and international law, and then
this comes around and everyone goes, ah, yeah, oh, the
rules just starting a plight to our mates. I just yeah,
except for the Spanish, which is interesting. The Spanish have
come out and have earned Trump's ira as a response. Anyway, Kevin, yeah, obviously, Yeah,
it's a bit of a Contncher's point, but rather late
in life this week you have made an interesting discovery.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Yes, so I'm moving too. A slightly lighter note here.
Our family recently holidayed on the east coast of the country,
as opposed to the west coast of the North Island
where we normally live. The sun was keen. We all
got up one early one morning and watched the sunrise
from the beach. We see a lot of sunsets here
(03:28):
at home, but never a sunrise, So at about five
thirty am we're head down to the sand. The first
thing that surprised me was when the alarm went off,
it was already light. We missed sunrise. I thought I
was expecting it to be dark prior to sunrise. It
isn't prior to sunrise. It's already light. I've always assumed
(03:53):
that sunrise is when dark turns to light. I thought
sunrise was the first shafts of light as the sun
comes up over the horizon, but no light fills the
sky well before sunrise. I've always thought dawn and sunrise
were basically the same thing, but no, they're entirely different events.
(04:17):
Dawn occurs before sunrise. In law, when dawn provides enough
light for humans to carry out activities without the need
for artificial lighting, it's known as civil dawn. It's defined
as the exact moment the center of the sun's six
degrees below the horizon, so before sunrise at Sybil dawn,
(04:41):
we can drive cars and sail boats without artificial lighting. So, Jack,
what was simply going to be a hippie sunrise experience
on Babba More Beach turned out to be more enlightening
than expected. Dawn and sunrise two totally different events that
occur at different times. Who knew? I didn't because frankly,
(05:05):
I've never spent much time out of bed at that
time of the day.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
It's uh, yeah, I think I would have thought dawn
and sunrise were exactly the same thing as well. I
know that obviously it gets light before the sun peaks
over the horizon. You know, I can see that. So
is it do we say that dawn is the moment
that you go from you know, it's what's that line,
it's always darkest before the dawn, do we go Do
we say that dawn is the moment that you go
(05:33):
from that that the light starts to increase, like even
by a tiny bit.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Yes, it is, it is, and so that's what I
thought sunrise well.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
And so okay, is there an exact time that there
happens that's my expression? Or does it change depending on
atmospheric conditions and time of year and that kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Yeah, no, it it occurs over a small period of time.
But in legal terms, there is there is an exact
time when we're allowed to use vehicles and boats and
do a whole machinery of all differences. Yes, and that's
called civil dawn, and that's when there is enough light
(06:13):
to see without artificial light.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Interesting, right, So my question though, and maybe maybe we've
got a mathematician listening or someone who understands the kind
of the different equations we'd need to do here. My
question is, is there a point, like exactly sixty four
minutes and fifteen seconds before sunrise? Is there an exact point,
(06:39):
depending on where you are in the Earth, where it
starts to slowly get lighter before the sun And can
you can you measure that? Is it a consistent point?
You understand?
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I think what? I think you could do that because yeah,
they know that the as I said, the center of
the civil dawn is when the sun is six degrees
below the horizon, right, so it's showing enough light. But
when it starts to show light, I imagine that the
sun is you know, what is it? Maybe ten degrees
below the ears.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah, I'm sure someone's done this. Someone must have worked.
That's very good, okay, Kevin. Look, we'll throw that open
to the text line, see if anyone can help us
with that summation. Appreciate your time this morning, Kevin, and
appreciate all of your text. Someone message me and said, Jack,
you know, were you calling it terrorism when Hamas struck
in Israel? And do I suggest that that's because I must,
(07:30):
of course is supported by the Iranian regime? Do I
suggest that's exactly the kind of thing that I think
is now more likely. Those kind of attacks on soft
civilian targets I think are now much more likely going
forward in the future, not just in Israel, but all
over the world because of this. I think it's really
easy to just look at this as a conventional war
for the time being, right for the next week or
(07:52):
next couple of weeks, but I think we will be seeing,
sadly seeing an impact for this foot for a long
time to come.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
For more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame, listen live
to News Talks' b from nine am Saturday, or follow
the podcast asked on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack team podcast
from News Talks A B.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Thank you for your messages. Vast numbers of texts have
come in, everyone thinking I'm deluded. Of course, that's right.
Ninety two ninety two is the text number. Lots of
people saying, oh, Jack, oh, you don't know anything about Iran. Yep,
that's probably true. And married to an Iranian refugee, that's right.
My entire and laws. Fleeder ran because of the oppressive regime.
But thank you for that, Jack, You are deluded. There
(00:34):
is no international law, there is no enforcement because the
UN is toothless. I mean, it's true that that the
fact that the Security Council still has the power of
veto means that it's very difficult to get some sort
of a UN mandate. What's interesting, though, like compare it
to Iraq, is that at least with no I shouldn't even
say at least, but with a rack, it's interesting, right,
with a rak, they tried that. They kind of went
(00:56):
through the motions of trying to build a case. They said, oh,
you know, this is it. We've got evidence, this is it,
weapons of mass destruction, et cetera, et cetera. They they
went through the motion, they had the veneer of pursuing legitimacy,
whereas Trump doesn't care about that necessarily. It's just it's
interesting how much has changed over the last twenty two
(01:17):
years or so. I'll get to more of your text
in a couple of minutes. Ninety two ninety two if
you want to send us a number This morning, nineteen
past nine, and Kevin Milne is with us, Kilder Kevin Cyoder.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Yes, I can't imagine how a difficult week it's been,
really and I've been thinking about Marvor and Marver's family,
and yes, you will have some really really interesting insights
into what's going on.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, there's no doubt it's complex
and tricky. Well, I don't think I necessarily am, but
I just you know, it's Yes, I certainly have had
attention on this, on the regime and what it's done
to its people for a long time now, and yeah,
I think it's I think it's possible to both all
(02:01):
the Iranian regime and think that, you know, if if
we are demanding, if we say we believe in the
rules based order, we say we believe in international law
then at the very least demanding the Americans provide some
evidence of an minate threat. I think it's pretty reasonable.
I just think, I mean, I don't think international law,
you know. I think it's a nice lofty ambition. I'm
(02:23):
realistic about the kind of nature of international law and
the UN and everything in this day and age. But
I just point out that New Zealand has nothing else
to lean on, like, we've got absolutely no other levers,
We've got no other cards to play. And I find
it interesting that this year so far, you know, you
think about Mark Karnyon, the rupture in the world order,
and all these kind of grandiose pronouncements about the importance
(02:44):
of the rules based order and international law, and then
this comes around and everyone goes, ah, yeah, oh, the
rules just starting a plight to our mates. I just yeah,
except for the Spanish, which is interesting. The Spanish have
come out and have earned Trump's ira as a response. Anyway, Kevin, yeah, obviously, Yeah,
it's a bit of a Contncher's point, but rather late
in life this week you have made an interesting discovery.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Yes, so I'm moving too. A slightly lighter note here.
Our family recently holidayed on the east coast of the country,
as opposed to the west coast of the North Island
where we normally live. The sun was keen. We all
got up one early one morning and watched the sunrise
from the beach. We see a lot of sunsets here
(03:28):
at home, but never a sunrise, So at about five
thirty am we're head down to the sand. The first
thing that surprised me was when the alarm went off,
it was already light. We missed sunrise. I thought I
was expecting it to be dark prior to sunrise. It
isn't prior to sunrise. It's already light. I've always assumed
(03:53):
that sunrise is when dark turns to light. I thought
sunrise was the first shafts of light as the sun
comes up over the horizon, but no light fills the
sky well before sunrise. I've always thought dawn and sunrise
were basically the same thing, but no, they're entirely different events.
(04:17):
Dawn occurs before sunrise. In law, when dawn provides enough
light for humans to carry out activities without the need
for artificial lighting, it's known as civil dawn. It's defined
as the exact moment the center of the sun's six
degrees below the horizon, so before sunrise at Sybil dawn,
(04:41):
we can drive cars and sail boats without artificial lighting. So, Jack,
what was simply going to be a hippie sunrise experience
on Babba More Beach turned out to be more enlightening
than expected. Dawn and sunrise two totally different events that
occur at different times. Who knew? I didn't because frankly,
(05:05):
I've never spent much time out of bed at that
time of the day.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
It's uh, yeah, I think I would have thought dawn
and sunrise were exactly the same thing as well. I
know that obviously it gets light before the sun peaks
over the horizon. You know, I can see that. So
is it do we say that dawn is the moment
that you go from you know, it's what's that line,
it's always darkest before the dawn, do we go Do
we say that dawn is the moment that you go
(05:33):
from that that the light starts to increase, like even
by a tiny bit.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Yes, it is, it is, and so that's what I
thought sunrise well.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
And so okay, is there an exact time that there
happens that's my expression? Or does it change depending on
atmospheric conditions and time of year and that kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Yeah, no, it it occurs over a small period of time.
But in legal terms, there is there is an exact
time when we're allowed to use vehicles and boats and
do a whole machinery of all differences. Yes, and that's
called civil dawn, and that's when there is enough light
(06:13):
to see without artificial light.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Interesting, right, So my question though, and maybe maybe we've
got a mathematician listening or someone who understands the kind
of the different equations we'd need to do here. My
question is, is there a point, like exactly sixty four
minutes and fifteen seconds before sunrise? Is there an exact point,
(06:39):
depending on where you are in the Earth, where it
starts to slowly get lighter before the sun And can
you can you measure that? Is it a consistent point?
You understand?
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I think what? I think you could do that because yeah,
they know that the as I said, the center of
the civil dawn is when the sun is six degrees
below the horizon, right, so it's showing enough light. But
when it starts to show light, I imagine that the
sun is you know, what is it? Maybe ten degrees
below the ears.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah, I'm sure someone's done this. Someone must have worked.
That's very good, okay, Kevin. Look, we'll throw that open
to the text line, see if anyone can help us
with that summation. Appreciate your time this morning, Kevin, and
appreciate all of your text. Someone message me and said, Jack,
you know, were you calling it terrorism when Hamas struck
in Israel? And do I suggest that that's because I must,
(07:30):
of course is supported by the Iranian regime? Do I
suggest that's exactly the kind of thing that I think
is now more likely. Those kind of attacks on soft
civilian targets I think are now much more likely going
forward in the future, not just in Israel, but all
over the world because of this. I think it's really
easy to just look at this as a conventional war
for the time being, right for the next week or
(07:52):
next couple of weeks, but I think we will be seeing,
sadly seeing an impact for this foot for a long
time to come.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
For more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame, listen live
to News Talks' b from nine am Saturday, or follow
the podcast asked on iHeartRadio
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