The Prime Minister says we have serious work to do on our infrastructure compared to Singapore.
He's returned from the country this week, where a deal was formally signed to ensure trade keeps flowing during disruptions – securing fuel for New Zealand and food for Singapore.
This comes as the former boss of Auckland's City Rail Link claims the project could have cost 50% less – ballooning to an estimated 5.5 billion dollars.
Christopher Luxon told Mike Hosking he agrees with this.
He says that we spend money on infrastructure but have a very poor return on it, and we need to get much better and more strategic about our planning.
And when it comes to the Government’s plans for a citizenship test, the Prime Minister says he could take it or leave it.
It's planning to test applicants from late next year, requiring they pass 15 out of 20 multi-choice questions – including questions on New Zealand’s laws and political system.
Luxon told Hosking it's pretty similar to what the UK and Australia have been doing for years.
He says it's probably not a bad thing that new Kiwis are aware of pretty basic stuff around things like women's rights and freedom of speech.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Prime Minister has been off sure of course in
Singapore signing the deal, so he's he's high tailed dinner
as soon as as soon as he possibly could when
he got back. Good to see you. Without criticizing the
trip of a wall, it was more photo what because
from what you've explained to was the deal you signed
has in fact been in action since like last year anyway, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I mean we did it in October last year. We've
been operating under it essentially since then. But it is
quite world leading. You know, there's no other deal that's
like this that's been put together where there's a guarantee
of no export controls on each other in the center
of a crisis. But the other thing I was trying
to do, Mike is I took thirty senior CEOs from
New Zealand and had them meet for a day with
thirty senior CEOs from Singapore.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
As well, because while we've had good.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Relationships prime minister to Prime minister and ministers to ministers,
we actually want to broaden out what more investment, what
more opportunities can there be between our.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Businesses as well. So we had our first what's.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Called Singapore and New Zealand Leadership Forum and we only
do that with Australia. So that went down really well
and there was really good and test So what is
the potential Well, I think it's massive. I think you've
got two small, advanced economies that actually complimentary, actually get
on with each other instinctively. These are the countries that
have actually pioneered a lot of our global trading architecture.
CPTPP came out of what was called the P four
(01:10):
which is what we started. We're doing a whole lot
of stuff on this future of investment and trade partnership
with sixteen other small countries which Todd McClay will be
chairing the second meeting in the middle of the year here.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
So you know, there's just in a will where it's.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Real chaotic and you know the old orders breaking down
from multilateralism to big countries with more power, actually small
countries coming together a little like mind lo, this is
really important.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Without diminishing our status in the world. Don't you feel
when you go to Singapore that you'd like to be
more like Singapore.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Well, there's a lot of great things there. I think
you've been there like me many many times, and every
time you go. It's just impressed of how they keep
upgrading it. I was when I was eight and one
of the first books I read was The Singapore Story
and First World to Third World to First World, which
was the story of Leek on You. But I was
in my hotel room, you know, the other morning, just
as interesting, I say, to a place called the Shangri La.
(01:59):
But as I was thinking about it, I turned the
water on, clean my teeth, and I was thinking, yeah, okay,
where's the water come from? And you know, you remember
Singapore doesn't have natural resources. They pipe it in from Malaysia,
or they've got a desalination plant that turns saltwater into
fresh water, and of course the whole place you could
actually pick it up and plumke it into Lake Taalpo exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Having said that, see, I look at Changi and I
look at Singapore as the leader of a country. Why
can't we have a Changy and why can't we have
a Singapore.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Real line, we have some serious work to do on
our infrastructure if we're really honest the way they go about.
I met with the CEO of Changi Airport when I
was up there. They're putting an airport. I call it
number five. That'll be bigger than Changy one, two, three
and four combined, and it's going to be quite an operation.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
What's impressive there is, you know, they do.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Infrastructure planning exceptionally well, and that's a real opportunity for
New Zealand because we're probably in the top ten percent
of countries that spend on infrastructure, but we're in the
bottom ten percent in terms of the efficiency we get
from it. And a lot of that is because we
do add hoc projects, we don't plan out the joint
and that the Singaporeans have a fifty year plan. So
if you think about that Marina Bay Sands, you know
(03:07):
that was planned out fifty years ago about where what
they're going to go into that land, what they were
going to put on that, and we need to we
need a little bit more of that.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
And you can't escape the advantage they have, which is yes,
they have democracy, but not really and it's a particular
model seems to work well in long term planning day.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
It's well accepted.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I mean they've been going sixty years. They just started
their fourth Prime minister and their parliament meets are two
or three days a month.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
As it should. Which have you read Kadie Breefort's piece
this morning? We have twenty okay, so sure about the CRL.
So he's saying exactly that. So he says we could
have done the CRL for half the price. He's just
reiterated everything you said, which then leads me to ask
the question, why are we the way we are?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
We have been doing things in a really inefficient way,
and like it's nineteen seventy five at times, we haven't
moved on and changed the way we do things.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I agree with that article.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
I actually think I read that one because essentially, you know,
you can go to I went to Denmark and you
look at Copenhagen to Malmo. They're built what's called the
Orison Bridge there that went from idea to finish within.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Four or five years. If you look at there's.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
A metro in Quebec that you know started about the
same time as our light rail project. Within five years
people are actually on a light rail uston every day
we are. We spend money on infrastructure, but we get
a very poor return on it, and you only if
you bring it into even government. You know, how does
KAO build houses that are fifteen percent more expensive in
the market. How do we have one point two million
(04:33):
dollar classrooms that actually when you standardize them, you get
them the cost down half and you can do twice
as many classrooms. So I think you know we have
we You know, part of the RMA reforms is all
about that. Getting rid of regional councils is all part
of that. We have to get much better and more
strategic about our infrastructure planning.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Do you do you reckon? People hear you when you
say that soon. I enjoy talking about the stuff because
I personally think you're right. But there's a couple of
polls out while you're away, one of which is the
NYOB Annual Business Monitor, and there's an increasing number of
people who were dissatisfied with your government. And that's it's
around the very things you talk about. And the other
pole that was out was indicating that you've mismanaged the
(05:10):
fuel crisis.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
I disagree with that.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I know you do.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
I get what I get, of course you do. But
the fact is, do you run the problem an election
year of saying the right stuff but people just don't
want to hear it or believe.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
It, or you've got to you've got to say it
because you know, if we just leave things as the
way they are and keep doing things the way we've
always done them, we'll keep getting the same results. And
so yeah, you know the reason, part of the reason
I've come to politics is because you do believe this
country can be innately better. There are aspects of the
way that Singapore approach, and for structure planning, you know
you've seen us try that here with housing in Auckland,
with a thirty year vision or plan of where that
(05:43):
growth should and should go to. And I get it's
a difficult conversation because it's one we haven't had before,
but we've got to have them. So I think you've
got to keep pushing and making the case for it.
But on the fuel stuff, I push back on that.
I mean, you know, we got organized early, We are
actually working well with industry.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I don't know the poll, this was horizon right, fifty
six percent. I know you don't like talking about poles,
but this, this is the thing that you should be
worried about. Fifty six percent of people have no confidence
in your ability to manage what some would argue you
already have managed. So the only thing I could take
out of that poll was what they actually wanted was
free money?
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Correct?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
They in a COVID frame of mind where the cash
Berzuka was sprayed around, the credit card was maxed out,
the rainy day fund is gone, and the banks are
telling us, hey, listen with credit rating watches. You need
to be careful here, and so we have to be
careful here. We don't have But what do you say that?
But what do you do with the fifty six percent of
people who don't want.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
To hear it?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Well, I get people may not want to hear it,
but I have to do the right thing for the
long term.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
For would you Bill rather let me ask you this,
would you rather lose the election having done what you
perceived to be the right thing, as opposed to do
what say Alberanez is doing, which is just right, checks left,
right and center and get people on board.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Well, I'm writing the sequel to the Labor Government. It's
a lovely movie, but the first one. But I'm actually
living the sequel. When the sequel is that I don't
have the flexibility to go break the cash around anymore.
You know, when you triple the debt and you write
out a ten billion dollar interest bill only on all
of that debt. That is five tonaton hospitals we don't
get to build. That is a huge amount of investment
in the country don't get to have. So we have
(07:12):
to be financially responsible. We're actually getting credit for that.
You have people internationally think we're doing it right way.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
I get it. I get it, But actually I have to.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Be a good steward of the finances, and I think
we are trying to find the right balance through that.
And I think when you see other countries picking up
some of our approach, it's a good sign.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
So the MOOB thing, it's thirty five percent of people
are dissatisfied with you. That once again dovetails in with
that other one, which it seems to be war related.
And you can't be blamed for the war.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
No, but I get it you might be. Yeah, But Mike,
people are tired, right. I mean, we've been through a pandemic,
painful process. We've been through inflation and costs of living
it's terrible. We've been through Trump's tariffs. We're now going
through a war that's causing consequences for us here at home.
All I can tell you is having been around the region.
There are countries in the world that are doing doing
(08:00):
it incredibly difficult, tough. Now that means nothing to a
New Zealander because it's actually about what happens for me
here at home. But it's about our relative performance. You know,
if you think about it, we went into this crisis
actually with some quite good economic momentum. We want to
come out of it as clean as we can and
pop back up on those rails and not have a
two or three year hangover like we did with COVID.
You know, the reason it's been hard is because that
(08:21):
COVID spending caused a massive crash hangover the night after.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Would you still blame that on Auckland because the jobs
numbers yesterday, which was pre war. If you look at Auckland,
they're bad numbers. Then there's about good numbers.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah, well there's on one level, that's the first time
we've seen a slight dip in unemployment. There's a month
and there of the conflict of the of that quarter.
But you know, there's more for us to do. But
if you look at the fast trap projects, we've got
twenty fast track projects with thousands of jobs coming through that.
You know, that have been kicking off. You think about
the Auckland warf, you think about the developments and Dreary,
(08:55):
there's some really good stuff happening there. The second thing
I'd say to you is, you know, I get critics
from some people about my major events fund. Well that's
been really deliberate because that drives jobs and hospitality and
tourism and other things like that. And so we've just
got to keep going with that plan. And actually, people
you go to the South Island, yes it's different because
primary industries are on fire. There's a whole bunch of
(09:16):
startup businesses in christ Ships that are very exciting that
are taking on jobs. But I you know, there are
We've just got to keep going with that.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Okay, citizenship idea that this is act, isn't it. I mean,
you know, answering questions have become a citizen.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
I mean yeah, look, I mean I could take it
or leave it, probably, but the answer for me is
actually it's very very similar to what the UK and
the Australians have been doing for years, and it's probably
not a bad thing that Actually New Zealand, you know,
New New Zealanders are positively ascribing you know, some pretty
basic stuff about women's rights, you know, freedom of speech.
You know there'll be you know, I mentioned four categories
(09:49):
as a bunch of questions. They'll be developing about it,
but it's not that. It's exactly what Australia and the
UK have been doing for some time.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
So appreciate it. Did you get the four tobler owns
I asked for?
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Or Judy Fren didn't you want some Korean ideal for
men's skin care, moisturizer or something. Weren't you after that?
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Nice to see Prime Minister Christoph Election. For more from
the mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to news talks it'd
be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast on
iHeartRadio
The Prime Minister has been off sure of course in
Singapore signing the deal, so he's he's high tailed dinner
as soon as as soon as he possibly could when
he got back. Good to see you. Without criticizing the
trip of a wall, it was more photo what because
from what you've explained to was the deal you signed
has in fact been in action since like last year anyway, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I mean we did it in October last year. We've
been operating under it essentially since then. But it is
quite world leading. You know, there's no other deal that's
like this that's been put together where there's a guarantee
of no export controls on each other in the center
of a crisis. But the other thing I was trying
to do, Mike is I took thirty senior CEOs from
New Zealand and had them meet for a day with
thirty senior CEOs from Singapore.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
As well, because while we've had good.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Relationships prime minister to Prime minister and ministers to ministers,
we actually want to broaden out what more investment, what
more opportunities can there be between our.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Businesses as well. So we had our first what's.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Called Singapore and New Zealand Leadership Forum and we only
do that with Australia. So that went down really well
and there was really good and test So what is
the potential Well, I think it's massive. I think you've
got two small, advanced economies that actually complimentary, actually get
on with each other instinctively. These are the countries that
have actually pioneered a lot of our global trading architecture.
CPTPP came out of what was called the P four
(01:10):
which is what we started. We're doing a whole lot
of stuff on this future of investment and trade partnership
with sixteen other small countries which Todd McClay will be
chairing the second meeting in the middle of the year here.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
So you know, there's just in a will where it's.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Real chaotic and you know the old orders breaking down
from multilateralism to big countries with more power, actually small
countries coming together a little like mind lo, this is
really important.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Without diminishing our status in the world. Don't you feel
when you go to Singapore that you'd like to be
more like Singapore.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Well, there's a lot of great things there. I think
you've been there like me many many times, and every
time you go. It's just impressed of how they keep
upgrading it. I was when I was eight and one
of the first books I read was The Singapore Story
and First World to Third World to First World, which
was the story of Leek on You. But I was
in my hotel room, you know, the other morning, just
as interesting, I say, to a place called the Shangri La.
(01:59):
But as I was thinking about it, I turned the
water on, clean my teeth, and I was thinking, yeah, okay,
where's the water come from? And you know, you remember
Singapore doesn't have natural resources. They pipe it in from Malaysia,
or they've got a desalination plant that turns saltwater into
fresh water, and of course the whole place you could
actually pick it up and plumke it into Lake Taalpo exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Having said that, see, I look at Changi and I
look at Singapore as the leader of a country. Why
can't we have a Changy and why can't we have
a Singapore.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Real line, we have some serious work to do on
our infrastructure if we're really honest the way they go about.
I met with the CEO of Changi Airport when I
was up there. They're putting an airport. I call it
number five. That'll be bigger than Changy one, two, three
and four combined, and it's going to be quite an operation.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
What's impressive there is, you know, they do.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Infrastructure planning exceptionally well, and that's a real opportunity for
New Zealand because we're probably in the top ten percent
of countries that spend on infrastructure, but we're in the
bottom ten percent in terms of the efficiency we get
from it. And a lot of that is because we
do add hoc projects, we don't plan out the joint
and that the Singaporeans have a fifty year plan. So
if you think about that Marina Bay Sands, you know
(03:07):
that was planned out fifty years ago about where what
they're going to go into that land, what they were
going to put on that, and we need to we
need a little bit more of that.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
And you can't escape the advantage they have, which is yes,
they have democracy, but not really and it's a particular
model seems to work well in long term planning day.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
It's well accepted.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I mean they've been going sixty years. They just started
their fourth Prime minister and their parliament meets are two
or three days a month.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
As it should. Which have you read Kadie Breefort's piece
this morning? We have twenty okay, so sure about the CRL.
So he's saying exactly that. So he says we could
have done the CRL for half the price. He's just
reiterated everything you said, which then leads me to ask
the question, why are we the way we are?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
We have been doing things in a really inefficient way,
and like it's nineteen seventy five at times, we haven't
moved on and changed the way we do things.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I agree with that article.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
I actually think I read that one because essentially, you know,
you can go to I went to Denmark and you
look at Copenhagen to Malmo. They're built what's called the
Orison Bridge there that went from idea to finish within.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Four or five years. If you look at there's.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
A metro in Quebec that you know started about the
same time as our light rail project. Within five years
people are actually on a light rail uston every day
we are. We spend money on infrastructure, but we get
a very poor return on it, and you only if
you bring it into even government. You know, how does
KAO build houses that are fifteen percent more expensive in
the market. How do we have one point two million
(04:33):
dollar classrooms that actually when you standardize them, you get
them the cost down half and you can do twice
as many classrooms. So I think you know we have
we You know, part of the RMA reforms is all
about that. Getting rid of regional councils is all part
of that. We have to get much better and more
strategic about our infrastructure planning.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Do you do you reckon? People hear you when you
say that soon. I enjoy talking about the stuff because
I personally think you're right. But there's a couple of
polls out while you're away, one of which is the
NYOB Annual Business Monitor, and there's an increasing number of
people who were dissatisfied with your government. And that's it's
around the very things you talk about. And the other
pole that was out was indicating that you've mismanaged the
(05:10):
fuel crisis.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
I disagree with that.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I know you do.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
I get what I get, of course you do. But
the fact is, do you run the problem an election
year of saying the right stuff but people just don't
want to hear it or believe.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
It, or you've got to you've got to say it
because you know, if we just leave things as the
way they are and keep doing things the way we've
always done them, we'll keep getting the same results. And
so yeah, you know the reason, part of the reason
I've come to politics is because you do believe this
country can be innately better. There are aspects of the
way that Singapore approach, and for structure planning, you know
you've seen us try that here with housing in Auckland,
with a thirty year vision or plan of where that
(05:43):
growth should and should go to. And I get it's
a difficult conversation because it's one we haven't had before,
but we've got to have them. So I think you've
got to keep pushing and making the case for it.
But on the fuel stuff, I push back on that.
I mean, you know, we got organized early, We are
actually working well with industry.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I don't know the poll, this was horizon right, fifty
six percent. I know you don't like talking about poles,
but this, this is the thing that you should be
worried about. Fifty six percent of people have no confidence
in your ability to manage what some would argue you
already have managed. So the only thing I could take
out of that poll was what they actually wanted was
free money?
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Correct?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
They in a COVID frame of mind where the cash
Berzuka was sprayed around, the credit card was maxed out,
the rainy day fund is gone, and the banks are
telling us, hey, listen with credit rating watches. You need
to be careful here, and so we have to be
careful here. We don't have But what do you say that?
But what do you do with the fifty six percent of
people who don't want.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
To hear it?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Well, I get people may not want to hear it,
but I have to do the right thing for the
long term.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
For would you Bill rather let me ask you this,
would you rather lose the election having done what you
perceived to be the right thing, as opposed to do
what say Alberanez is doing, which is just right, checks left,
right and center and get people on board.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Well, I'm writing the sequel to the Labor Government. It's
a lovely movie, but the first one. But I'm actually
living the sequel. When the sequel is that I don't
have the flexibility to go break the cash around anymore.
You know, when you triple the debt and you write
out a ten billion dollar interest bill only on all
of that debt. That is five tonaton hospitals we don't
get to build. That is a huge amount of investment
in the country don't get to have. So we have
(07:12):
to be financially responsible. We're actually getting credit for that.
You have people internationally think we're doing it right way.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
I get it. I get it, But actually I have to.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Be a good steward of the finances, and I think
we are trying to find the right balance through that.
And I think when you see other countries picking up
some of our approach, it's a good sign.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
So the MOOB thing, it's thirty five percent of people
are dissatisfied with you. That once again dovetails in with
that other one, which it seems to be war related.
And you can't be blamed for the war.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
No, but I get it you might be. Yeah, But Mike,
people are tired, right. I mean, we've been through a pandemic,
painful process. We've been through inflation and costs of living
it's terrible. We've been through Trump's tariffs. We're now going
through a war that's causing consequences for us here at home.
All I can tell you is having been around the region.
There are countries in the world that are doing doing
(08:00):
it incredibly difficult, tough. Now that means nothing to a
New Zealander because it's actually about what happens for me
here at home. But it's about our relative performance. You know,
if you think about it, we went into this crisis
actually with some quite good economic momentum. We want to
come out of it as clean as we can and
pop back up on those rails and not have a
two or three year hangover like we did with COVID.
You know, the reason it's been hard is because that
(08:21):
COVID spending caused a massive crash hangover the night after.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Would you still blame that on Auckland because the jobs
numbers yesterday, which was pre war. If you look at Auckland,
they're bad numbers. Then there's about good numbers.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah, well there's on one level, that's the first time
we've seen a slight dip in unemployment. There's a month
and there of the conflict of the of that quarter.
But you know, there's more for us to do. But
if you look at the fast trap projects, we've got
twenty fast track projects with thousands of jobs coming through that.
You know, that have been kicking off. You think about
the Auckland warf, you think about the developments and Dreary,
(08:55):
there's some really good stuff happening there. The second thing
I'd say to you is, you know, I get critics
from some people about my major events fund. Well that's
been really deliberate because that drives jobs and hospitality and
tourism and other things like that. And so we've just
got to keep going with that plan. And actually, people
you go to the South Island, yes it's different because
primary industries are on fire. There's a whole bunch of
(09:16):
startup businesses in christ Ships that are very exciting that
are taking on jobs. But I you know, there are
We've just got to keep going with that.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Okay, citizenship idea that this is act, isn't it. I mean,
you know, answering questions have become a citizen.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
I mean yeah, look, I mean I could take it
or leave it, probably, but the answer for me is
actually it's very very similar to what the UK and
the Australians have been doing for years, and it's probably
not a bad thing that Actually New Zealand, you know,
New New Zealanders are positively ascribing you know, some pretty
basic stuff about women's rights, you know, freedom of speech.
You know there'll be you know, I mentioned four categories
(09:49):
as a bunch of questions. They'll be developing about it,
but it's not that. It's exactly what Australia and the
UK have been doing for some time.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
So appreciate it. Did you get the four tobler owns
I asked for?
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Or Judy Fren didn't you want some Korean ideal for
men's skin care, moisturizer or something. Weren't you after that?
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Nice to see Prime Minister Christoph Election. For more from
the mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to news talks it'd
be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast on
iHeartRadio
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