March 4, 2026 • 10 mins
After weeks of deliberation, the new All Blacks head coach has been named.
Dave Rennie is succeeding Scott Robertson in the role, beating out the other top contender, Jamie Joseph.
Rennie's first test at the helm will be in the July series against France, Italy, and Ireland, but his assistants have still yet to be named.
NZ Rugby Chair David Kirk told Mike Hosking that the panel spent hours discussing the merits of the two candidates, and were very rigorous and analytical in discussing their strengths and relative weaknesses.
He says they concluded quite firmly and certainly unanimously that Rennie was the person they wanted to appoint.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
So did the rugby. Speaking of sport, at least one
of the jobs that the union's been filled now Dave
Rennie's you knew all Blacks coach. Rennie's first test is
the July series. We've got France, Italy in Ireland. David
Kirk is the rugby chair and he is with us.
Very good mornington, we'll see the Were you spoiled for
choice between the two?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
It was too all you needed?
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Yes, you know, you'd always like more in principle, but
when you've got two very high candidates, very high quality
candidates like Jamie and Dave, we certainly both were absolutely
appointable and we're delighted that to have appointed Dave.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
How close close we you know.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
The panel, a very high quality panel, spent two hours
discussing the merits of the two candidates. We're very rigorous
and analytical and going through the strengths and relative weaknesses
of the candidates. And you know, we concluded quite firmly
and certainly unanimously that Dave was the person that we
wanted to appoint.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
But you Jamie's got real qualities.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
What was the just whoop?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
So I'm a rugby fan, but I'm not in the
weeds like you guys are. So you look at as
chiefs record, you look at Australia, you look at Japan.
Is that material does in year but count more or less.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Yeah, it's a good question.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
You do look at record, but you look at as
much as you look at the record of the performance
of the teams and the actual results of the teams.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
You look at the environment that they built.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
And the capability they've developed in the team, the capability
to go to the next level.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
For instance, in Australia, they didn't.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Have actually great no numbers on that, but the momentum
that was in that team as they went into the
World Cup year was pretty powerful. They had lost to
the strongest teams in the world France and Ireland in
the last minutes of a northern tour when they were
pretty staffed.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
So I think, you know, it was clear to me
that team was really building for the World Cup.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
That's a vibe thing, though, isn't it. See I chat
gpt'ed Renny and I see it is Reny a good
coach and chat ChiPT came back with it's conclusionable no,
based on results, and that is true.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
You can you have to say.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
If you look at Australia, he wasn't particularly successful, but
you're vibing him. And that's a risk, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Everything's at risk, you know that. But you know it's
the other thing that you that we did in the interview,
which is very clear, was talk to them about how
they build cultures and environments. In the end, the coach
doesn't run on the field and play the game. Coach
doesn't kick the winning goal. It's all about developing a
team that can take accountability, knows how to play the game,
(02:33):
is very clear about what it takes to win modern rugby,
and has the right leadership and the right understanding of
what they've got to do and is able to execute.
And that comes down to and that comes down to
environment and a clear understanding of the game play or
the game model.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
So explain then, because no one, no one understood, you know,
no one had a better vibe than Raiser for example,
did he?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I mean he was. People died for him, and yet
it didn't work.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Why It's very hard to say.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
I mean you sometimes there's just you know, different environments
don't bring out the best in people. And you know,
I think he's a great coach. He's a he's a
very fine coach. And but but you're right, it wasn't
really working for that team. And if you know, you
compare the Crusader's environment to the all black environment, it
(03:24):
is very different. It's a much more complex environment. And
you are traveling and training all the time. You've got
more people and more things to deal with. But you know,
i'd have to say, I don't really know.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
I don't want to relitigate it. But but is that
on you guys? Then if you because if somebody saw
something in rays that could be elevated, you allegedly were wrong.
Is that on you guys?
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Well, I think you never know until afterwards.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
And I mean I'm not one for looking back and
stad of blaming people and saying, oh, you should have
known this or should have known that, when you know,
the actually that infation wasn't available. We hadn't had the
experience to understand, you know, how what responses would be
and how how the you know, the group would perform.
So I think it's not great. It's not really sensible
(04:14):
to look back too much. And and you want to
bee could have been.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Jure, why well, as much as we would like to
text and you know what New Zealand's like on rugby
and coaches and stuff like that. So so one text
this morning. I wasn't going to ask it, but I am. Now,
can you get David Kirk to confirm that it wasn't
the North Island players who picked on Razor? See, that's
that I mean. I wouldn't answer because it's a it's
(04:38):
a it's a silly question. I know the answer, but
that's how New Zealand is think.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
And I'm actually very pleased that you've asked that question
because sorry, this is an opportunity for me to be
very definitive. It was not the North Island players, not
by any means. The decision to change the coach was
not taken by the players. The the decision to change
the coach was taken by the Board of New Zealand Rugby.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
That's the accountability that we have. And we talked to
a whole range of.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
People and there was virtually no difference between which island
you came from, was no difference between what your ethnicity was.
There was actually no difference between whether you're an old
player and the young player. The trends and the themes
were very consistent across.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Which just opposes with Renny because I know reading in
the Australian media yesterday, a lot of Australians think very
well of them still, so that speaks to his character
and that was part of your equation, wasn't it.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
That's absolutely right, and that's the same with all all
that coaches and players. Character accounts for a great deal
when the heaters on characters, what comes out.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Explain to me. Within the union, there's a lot of
people leaving why.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
I think there's a combination of things. I think it's
the affluction of time. As we say, people have just
been in jobs for quite extended periods of time. I
don't think there's anyone leaving because they feel disgruntled and
the business is not hitting in the right direction. But
I think for some people it's you and you start.
I mean Chris Lendrum for instance, he's been the head
(06:01):
of high Performance for over twenty years. I think it
is and he just feels a bit wrung out, a
bit ready for his next challenge, but ready for a break.
We are changing and he's been part of helping us
design it. But we are changing the way in which
we work.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
With high performance.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
It's just the time is right, And I think that
it's sort of a bit of an unsatisfactory answer.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
I know, but for a lot of people, you know,
the time is right.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
There's nothing wrong with that weird program. Yesterday is after
the Baltimore Ravens. I mean, to be honest, I'd leave
you for the Baltimore Ravens.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
I mean, he's a great guy, and it's great that
he's got such a lovely it's such a great career opportunity.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
We're delighted.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
That's that's a dream come true.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Conditioning, I would have thought, are you dysfunctional as a business?
Speaker 4 (06:46):
No, not at all, not even slightly.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Well, people want me to ask these questions, it seems.
I don't know whether I'm more interested in the all
blacks or the business side of the equation. But as
I follow sport, and sport globally is fantastically successful. Yeah right,
I would argue the rugby Union at the moment isn't
that successful? You know, bottom line, it's not that successful.
It could be more successful. I'm just trying to work
(07:13):
out whether it's you guys, or whether it's the sport
of rugby that isn't as big as it could be
globally compared to other sports.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Will let's wait and see before until our results come out.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Before we got good results, I'm not saying anything about
the results because as you know, having interviewed many business
people over the years, they can't speculate on their results
before where they're out there. But you know, we're not
trying to as an operating business running the whole of
New Zealand Rugby end up with a big surplus every year.
(07:44):
We have a lot of reserves as it is. We've
sold future net revenue in order to put money into
the balance sheet in order to invest it in a
growth strategy. So the aim for the organization, the board
and the management is to run a kind of break
even business in operating. We're not losing money, we're not
going backwards because of operating performance. But we're also there's
(08:05):
no need for us to try and accumulate more reserves.
What we need, what we need to do is continue
to invest in the game, and I think you'll find
the game's pretty well funded at the moment and actually
doing pretty well.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Prevential Union.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Do you worry the Baltimore game? Do you worry that.
I mean, I know why you're doing it. If you can,
if you can land in an American city and sell
out fifty six thousand and do a lot of pr
and have boat and shake a lot of hands, this
is good for the bottom line. That's fantastic. But but
you know that's the all Blacks away for another game.
Do you worry that it's not about New Zealand anymore
as much as it once was?
Speaker 3 (08:37):
I do it, But I think the alls have to
rugby in general, and the top teams obviously are the
most important ones. All blacks and black fans have to find,
you know, ways of continuing to really engage with the
New Zealand public and engage with the young people. And
there is a financial I would say necessity, but you know,
(09:00):
or to play more games internationally and a lot more
money from them well, competing to keep our players in
New Zealand and to keep our coaches in New Zealand,
and to keep the game properly invested in with some
big countries with lots of people and lots of money
around the world.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
You chair a lot of stuff. Where does the rugby
union sit for you in terms of just enjoyment.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Probably says at either end the the the it's some
of the most enjoyable things that I do, and sometimes
it's some of the I wouldn't say it's unenjoyable, but
it's it's time consuming and sapping training. It's just the time, really,
and there's a lot of people that pull me in
(09:46):
a lot of directions in rugby, but I get a
real kick out of the out of the environment. I mean,
it's it's funnily enough. It's it's not so much the
high performance environment which I've been in as a player
and around subsequent see the community game. When I see
when I go into smaller clubrooms and smaller unions and
see people giving their time for nothing and the love
(10:07):
of the game and the enjoyment they get talking to
me and to other players and things, it just it's
it's really inspiring.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Good stuff. Nice to talk to you, Nice to see
David Kirkie. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen
live to news talks.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
So did the rugby. Speaking of sport, at least one
of the jobs that the union's been filled now Dave
Rennie's you knew all Blacks coach. Rennie's first test is
the July series. We've got France, Italy in Ireland. David
Kirk is the rugby chair and he is with us.
Very good mornington, we'll see the Were you spoiled for
choice between the two?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
It was too all you needed?
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Yes, you know, you'd always like more in principle, but
when you've got two very high candidates, very high quality
candidates like Jamie and Dave, we certainly both were absolutely
appointable and we're delighted that to have appointed Dave.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
How close close we you know.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
The panel, a very high quality panel, spent two hours
discussing the merits of the two candidates. We're very rigorous
and analytical and going through the strengths and relative weaknesses
of the candidates. And you know, we concluded quite firmly
and certainly unanimously that Dave was the person that we
wanted to appoint.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
But you Jamie's got real qualities.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
What was the just whoop?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
So I'm a rugby fan, but I'm not in the
weeds like you guys are. So you look at as
chiefs record, you look at Australia, you look at Japan.
Is that material does in year but count more or less.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Yeah, it's a good question.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
You do look at record, but you look at as
much as you look at the record of the performance
of the teams and the actual results of the teams.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
You look at the environment that they built.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
And the capability they've developed in the team, the capability
to go to the next level.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
For instance, in Australia, they didn't.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Have actually great no numbers on that, but the momentum
that was in that team as they went into the
World Cup year was pretty powerful. They had lost to
the strongest teams in the world France and Ireland in
the last minutes of a northern tour when they were
pretty staffed.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
So I think, you know, it was clear to me
that team was really building for the World Cup.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
That's a vibe thing, though, isn't it. See I chat
gpt'ed Renny and I see it is Reny a good
coach and chat ChiPT came back with it's conclusionable no,
based on results, and that is true.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
You can you have to say.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
If you look at Australia, he wasn't particularly successful, but
you're vibing him. And that's a risk, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Everything's at risk, you know that. But you know it's
the other thing that you that we did in the interview,
which is very clear, was talk to them about how
they build cultures and environments. In the end, the coach
doesn't run on the field and play the game. Coach
doesn't kick the winning goal. It's all about developing a
team that can take accountability, knows how to play the game,
(02:33):
is very clear about what it takes to win modern rugby,
and has the right leadership and the right understanding of
what they've got to do and is able to execute.
And that comes down to and that comes down to
environment and a clear understanding of the game play or
the game model.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
So explain then, because no one, no one understood, you know,
no one had a better vibe than Raiser for example,
did he?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I mean he was. People died for him, and yet
it didn't work.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Why It's very hard to say.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
I mean you sometimes there's just you know, different environments
don't bring out the best in people. And you know,
I think he's a great coach. He's a he's a
very fine coach. And but but you're right, it wasn't
really working for that team. And if you know, you
compare the Crusader's environment to the all black environment, it
(03:24):
is very different. It's a much more complex environment. And
you are traveling and training all the time. You've got
more people and more things to deal with. But you know,
i'd have to say, I don't really know.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
I don't want to relitigate it. But but is that
on you guys? Then if you because if somebody saw
something in rays that could be elevated, you allegedly were wrong.
Is that on you guys?
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Well, I think you never know until afterwards.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
And I mean I'm not one for looking back and
stad of blaming people and saying, oh, you should have
known this or should have known that, when you know,
the actually that infation wasn't available. We hadn't had the
experience to understand, you know, how what responses would be
and how how the you know, the group would perform.
So I think it's not great. It's not really sensible
(04:14):
to look back too much. And and you want to
bee could have been.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Jure, why well, as much as we would like to
text and you know what New Zealand's like on rugby
and coaches and stuff like that. So so one text
this morning. I wasn't going to ask it, but I am. Now,
can you get David Kirk to confirm that it wasn't
the North Island players who picked on Razor? See, that's
that I mean. I wouldn't answer because it's a it's
(04:38):
a it's a silly question. I know the answer, but
that's how New Zealand is think.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
And I'm actually very pleased that you've asked that question
because sorry, this is an opportunity for me to be
very definitive. It was not the North Island players, not
by any means. The decision to change the coach was
not taken by the players. The the decision to change
the coach was taken by the Board of New Zealand Rugby.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
That's the accountability that we have. And we talked to
a whole range of.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
People and there was virtually no difference between which island
you came from, was no difference between what your ethnicity was.
There was actually no difference between whether you're an old
player and the young player. The trends and the themes
were very consistent across.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Which just opposes with Renny because I know reading in
the Australian media yesterday, a lot of Australians think very
well of them still, so that speaks to his character
and that was part of your equation, wasn't it.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
That's absolutely right, and that's the same with all all
that coaches and players. Character accounts for a great deal
when the heaters on characters, what comes out.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Explain to me. Within the union, there's a lot of
people leaving why.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
I think there's a combination of things. I think it's
the affluction of time. As we say, people have just
been in jobs for quite extended periods of time. I
don't think there's anyone leaving because they feel disgruntled and
the business is not hitting in the right direction. But
I think for some people it's you and you start.
I mean Chris Lendrum for instance, he's been the head
(06:01):
of high Performance for over twenty years. I think it
is and he just feels a bit wrung out, a
bit ready for his next challenge, but ready for a break.
We are changing and he's been part of helping us
design it. But we are changing the way in which
we work.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
With high performance.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
It's just the time is right, And I think that
it's sort of a bit of an unsatisfactory answer.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
I know, but for a lot of people, you know,
the time is right.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
There's nothing wrong with that weird program. Yesterday is after
the Baltimore Ravens. I mean, to be honest, I'd leave
you for the Baltimore Ravens.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
I mean, he's a great guy, and it's great that
he's got such a lovely it's such a great career opportunity.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
We're delighted.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
That's that's a dream come true.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Conditioning, I would have thought, are you dysfunctional as a business?
Speaker 4 (06:46):
No, not at all, not even slightly.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Well, people want me to ask these questions, it seems.
I don't know whether I'm more interested in the all
blacks or the business side of the equation. But as
I follow sport, and sport globally is fantastically successful. Yeah right,
I would argue the rugby Union at the moment isn't
that successful? You know, bottom line, it's not that successful.
It could be more successful. I'm just trying to work
(07:13):
out whether it's you guys, or whether it's the sport
of rugby that isn't as big as it could be
globally compared to other sports.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Will let's wait and see before until our results come out.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Before we got good results, I'm not saying anything about
the results because as you know, having interviewed many business
people over the years, they can't speculate on their results
before where they're out there. But you know, we're not
trying to as an operating business running the whole of
New Zealand Rugby end up with a big surplus every year.
(07:44):
We have a lot of reserves as it is. We've
sold future net revenue in order to put money into
the balance sheet in order to invest it in a
growth strategy. So the aim for the organization, the board
and the management is to run a kind of break
even business in operating. We're not losing money, we're not
going backwards because of operating performance. But we're also there's
(08:05):
no need for us to try and accumulate more reserves.
What we need, what we need to do is continue
to invest in the game, and I think you'll find
the game's pretty well funded at the moment and actually
doing pretty well.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Prevential Union.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Do you worry the Baltimore game? Do you worry that.
I mean, I know why you're doing it. If you can,
if you can land in an American city and sell
out fifty six thousand and do a lot of pr
and have boat and shake a lot of hands, this
is good for the bottom line. That's fantastic. But but
you know that's the all Blacks away for another game.
Do you worry that it's not about New Zealand anymore
as much as it once was?
Speaker 3 (08:37):
I do it, But I think the alls have to
rugby in general, and the top teams obviously are the
most important ones. All blacks and black fans have to find,
you know, ways of continuing to really engage with the
New Zealand public and engage with the young people. And
there is a financial I would say necessity, but you know,
(09:00):
or to play more games internationally and a lot more
money from them well, competing to keep our players in
New Zealand and to keep our coaches in New Zealand,
and to keep the game properly invested in with some
big countries with lots of people and lots of money
around the world.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
You chair a lot of stuff. Where does the rugby
union sit for you in terms of just enjoyment.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Probably says at either end the the the it's some
of the most enjoyable things that I do, and sometimes
it's some of the I wouldn't say it's unenjoyable, but
it's it's time consuming and sapping training. It's just the time, really,
and there's a lot of people that pull me in
(09:46):
a lot of directions in rugby, but I get a
real kick out of the out of the environment. I mean,
it's it's funnily enough. It's it's not so much the
high performance environment which I've been in as a player
and around subsequent see the community game. When I see
when I go into smaller clubrooms and smaller unions and
see people giving their time for nothing and the love
(10:07):
of the game and the enjoyment they get talking to
me and to other players and things, it just it's
it's really inspiring.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Good stuff. Nice to talk to you, Nice to see
David Kirkie. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen
live to news talks.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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