David Seymour: Associate Education Minister on the growth in rolls of the first seven charter schools

David Seymour believes financial flexibility is playing a role in the rapid growth of charter schools. 

New figures show more than 1,400 students were enrolled in 16 schools as of last month. 

The first seven schools established have seen their rolls jump more than 200% from 215 to 650. 

The Associate Education Minister told Mike Hosking charter schools demonstrate what's possible within the learning environment. 

He says they can be shut down if they don't reach targets like attendance and academics, but in return get the flexibility to use money their way. 

LISTEN ABOVE 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
So on this broad education theme, we got the role
news this morning. Roles for the original seven charter schools
have increased by three hundred percent since opening. Costings are
interesting as well because the claim has always been from
the unions that charter schools are way too expensive. In fact,
they're claiming and where they get these numbers from, I've
got no idea, but they're claiming up to ninety thousand
dollars a student. So what it actually is at primary

(00:22):
level is eighty two hundred per child compared to the
state at eighty seven hundred, so it's in fact cheaper,
we find out. David Seymore, as the Associate Minister of Education,
is with us morning, Good morning. As regards the roles,
I mean you're playing with figures here. I mean they're
real figures. But two fifteen to six fifty eight in
the original seven and fourteen seventy one over sixteen schools,
I mean there's still small numbers. So small numbers produce

(00:45):
big percentages, don't they.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, I think that's fair. But it's still true that
the number of children of those charter schools is quadrupled,
which is a sign of very healthy growth. If it
was the other way round. I'm sure people would be
jumping over us. But I think for the way that
charter schools show the power of possibility. That you can
have a school that uses trainee teachers as additional teaching aids,

(01:11):
helping them get certificated and increasing the number of adults
in the room for children that have had a learning challenge, Well,
that's the kind of creativity that's being used. And you
can do that with the flexibility of funding. And frankly,
just that possibility that charter schools operate.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
Is this the final thing you needed to prove because
the choice argument we've been arguing back and forward for years.
Labor don't like it, the unions don't like it, but
at a cheaper cost, because they always said, way more expensive.
If only we had that money in public, look what
we could do. And yet proofs in the pudding, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
Well, it's always been the case that child at a
charter school is funded the same, no more or less
than a child at a state school. These figures show
that it may be slightly less, and the reason for
that is that every now and then, a new program
or initiative is added on to the state school system.
And that money goes to state schools automatically, it doesn't

(02:09):
always go to charter school So, if anything, there's a
natural disadvantage that charter schools get a little bit less. Nonetheless,
because they have the flexibility. You know, they can be
shut down if they don't reach the attendance targets, they
can be shut down if they don't reach the academic
achievement targets. But in return for that, they get the
flexibility to use that money their way. And as a result,

(02:33):
not only were seeing the numbers growing, but attendance that
charter schools is higher than state schools, even though several
charter schools were set up precisely for children who'd been
basically not attending at all. And there's some wonderful stories
where they've really turned their lives around and just the
last year and become regular attenders because they've seen something different.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
Where did unions get the ninety grand from? Do they
literally make the stuff up?

Speaker 2 (02:58):
No, what they did was they took the total budget
for the charter school program, which has issued over four years,
because that's how government budgets are done, and that includes
the initial policy design and the setup of the thing
and everything that you have to do to get something
up and running. And then they took the first terms

(03:19):
role figures, which was pretty small because not many people
enroll at a state school, charter school, a private school
or any kind of school in its first term. And
then they divided that and they produced a huge figure.
Now I just hope they weren't maths or accounting teachers,
because what they should have done is divided over the
ten years that we have contracted these schools, how much

(03:41):
money will be paid out at their eventual roles, which
they're showing every sign of meeting, and then you get
an honest figure. We've replicated that and we've shown that
actually they paid less.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
Good on you, you have a good week. I appreciate it.
David Smore, Associate Minister of Education. I should also point
out these similar numbers apply to secondary school as well.
In other words, it's cheaper at a charter school than
it is at a state school, which then brings you
I would have thought to the final question, because there's
been going on for years. Charter schools are not new,
they've just been very controversial. Hipkins killed them when he
got back into power. You remember that they were up

(04:14):
and then he killed them. Ideology. It brings us to
the final question, and the final question is this, do
you dislike choice? And if you argue, we'd love choice,
but it's so expensive. Now that you know it's not
expensive or more expensive than state, can you possibly argue
against it? You don't have to use it, it's not compulsory,
but can you honestly argue against something that is cheaper

(04:36):
and for some people better. For more from the Mic
Asking Breakfast, listen live to news talks. It'd be from
six am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.