Labour says the Government's scrapping of iwi-council partnerships will likely cause more friction.
The newest Resource Management Act reforms aim to throw out any existing deals between councils and iwi, and prevent more from being signed.
The Government argues these agreements have become out-of-scope – giving unelected officials a position at the decision-making table.
Labour MP Ginny Andersen told Mike Hosking that wasn't the case, and they encouraged on-the-ground collaboration.
She says the Government's change will lead to more division and litigation from iwi, calling it a waste of time and money.
National’s Mark Mitchell says the replacement bills originally would’ve allowed existing agreements to carry over while stopping new ones, but since the bills were introduced, they became aware of a rapid increase in new agreements between councils and iwi.
He told Hosking this is about stopping scope creep and restoring trust in local government.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Jenny Anderson's with us Mark Mitchell's weather. Good morning, Monday
morning morning, Morning, Morning, morning, Jenny. How how cool was
it to have question time back yesterday?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
It was? It was wonderful, it was exciting. You didn't
ask a question though, No, not maybe today we'll try
and you've.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Got one today lined up, one line something. Okay, tell
us what give us? Give it to me now?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Okay, becausen't they get surprised? You want to know, Becauzes.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Then they're like, oh, I know, so there's a couple.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
So we've you got to No, you put up a couple. Yeah,
you think of different ones.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Oh no, you're supplementaries. I don't want your supplementaries because
they are the surprise ones. What's your main question? What's
your what's your what's your? And who's By the way, there.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Was your two education potential ones and there is one
to Nicole McKee for fire out ser these three in
the end the maxim we have a meeting at quit
to nine that decides, you know, who gets up, you
do your pitch, you do your elevator pitch.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Who's the who's the final determined or whether your question
gets across the line.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Across usually because Karen mcinaughty is the shadow leader of
the house, so he'll he will have a think about
which one sounds.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
That's a good one, that's a good one there, Yeah, he's.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
A cunning one.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Go for that. He'suns Australian though when we do it,
he's not really Australian.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
He sounds Australian. He wears he wears chinos and hats
like he's Australian. Having said all that, does he go
for does he go for your supplementaries? Does he go now?
If if if I give you that one, Jenny, what's
your supplementary?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
So you get to tum and how many we get
in a day?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
So and we divvy those up right, So usually the
first question, which would go to Chippy or Barbreapins or
whoever's taking the lead, they'll get a couple more, and
then the restless up keep divided out over the other asking.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Questions making you nervous between four and six, you're quaking,
he said, not really, No, it's something.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
I think the listens. I think the listeners are probably thinking.
We move on from that.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
No, question time is do nothing else my gloves question
time and if my career I'm going to make sure
that more New Zealanders are aware of the joy that
is question time.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
You get a few honorable mentions in question Thomas, Yes.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
I do.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Now neither of you correct me if I I'll start
with you, mate, you weren't there when Bill Birch was there?
Were you?
Speaker 4 (02:28):
No? But he worn't with my grandfather, no way.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
Yeah, he's in keebinet to my grandfather and like just
so we knew the family and just huge respect. Incredible man,
very humble, very smart and made a massive contribution to
our country through public service. He still turned up to
National Party functions. He's still there, he still listened, he
gave advice. You know, he's one of those guys that
didn't disappear. He was still there supporting us right through
(02:52):
to the end.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I think even you would agree with I mean you
may not agree with all the policies, Genny, but I
mean that was a serious contribution, wasn't it. Years on
the political life.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Well, you always had those people in cabinet. I suppose
you still do who do more of the work and
who do with that backwork? And I actually listened to
it was that podcast.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
I mentioned previously. You're going to mention it.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
It's the one yeah, yeah, the one that goes. It's
put up by Toby Menheigh and they've done and he
features in that. So it's really interesting to see, you know,
those people behind this who are always right in the front,
but they're often the ones doing the whole lot of
the backwork in the background.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
He was a spring poller of great influence. Now let's talk.
We'll start talking Mark Golden based some means and so
let's not try and make this too political, because you've
done what you've done. You've written sixty million dollars checks.
As a concept, etes versus saving a company versus the
specifics of the company in the New Zealand economy, how
complicated do you think this is as.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
A decision, Well, the eyes is absolutely without a doubt,
had an impact on them financially, but it was considered.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
But whether they come out of these yes.
Speaker 5 (04:02):
But ultimately the government we didn't want to undermine confidence
or the integrity and stability of the ETS and so
you know, it was the side of that a targeted
commercial agreement. It was going to address the resilience issue
that we need as a country. They're the only producer
of cement for us, and we need to make sure
that we secured that.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Is there anything you would have done differently, Jidly?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Well, but the question we've got is why this one
and why not many of the others? And I know
you can't do them all fear, but food security, I
would argue, is just as important. And when you have
vague operations like what ees and the canes who are
shutting down permanently, and when we don't have good, strong
food security, when we're growing all this beautiful food and
can't process it here in New Zealand, why has the
(04:45):
case made that that wasn't just as important to keep
that food production happening in Hawks Bay.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
It's not a bad question, make See. I don't know
that food security is your best example, Jenny, But I mean,
what do you do?
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Mark?
Speaker 1 (04:58):
So you've opened up a Pandora's to a degree, haven't you.
Speaker 5 (05:02):
Yeah, Look, it's not about ranking one industry over another.
But this obviously presented a really unique set of circumstances
and challenges for US as a country. So the deal
is targeted and conditional golden based. Event has to maintain
the best at manufacture right through to thirty first December
twenty forty and they also have to commit at least
one hundred and fifty million of its own investment maintaining jobs,
(05:26):
and they're going to have to meet reporting and audit requirements.
But we had to make sure that we secured, you
know though, the only ones that are actually manufacturing cement
at the levels that we need as a country. And
of course cement is used just about everyone's daily lives, so.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
We understand that logic of it. Now, a good question
from a text, if we're paying for it, why don't
we take a stake in the company?
Speaker 5 (05:51):
Yeah, well, I mean that's obviously a that would be
more a question directed towards the Minister of Finance because
she's been the one that's been doing the heavy lifting
and the heavy work on this. Obviously, it's something that
we do not take light that we do not like
interfering or getting.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Involved in these situations.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
However, governments also have got a responsibility to make sure
that the public in the country has got access to
the to the things that they need.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
But go back to the question Jenny, importantly, would you
guys probably have done the same thing?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah, well, I think there needs to be a broader
response because he's been so many companies go down, So
whether it's just a one off or whether it needs
to be a long term a consideration around the structure
of how the economy is working if we can't have
KEII businesses operating here. The other one that's had an
impact is of course all the puble and paper closures.
(06:41):
The paper I mean, that's the answer from they're supplying
deary so that that's a key link into supplying all
the packaging for for our dairy processing and so that's
from reports and on the ground and talking to people.
That's had a significant impact not just on jobs, but
on the ability of doing that great.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Work for example.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
I think that so I think there's an important question
to weigh out.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Okay, what what about the millions?
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Fine a question.
Speaker 5 (07:07):
Here, I think without a doubt, our story as a
country is one of recovering from a very deep hole,
probably one of the deepest holes in the OECD as
we came out of COVID. But you know, let's focus
on the fact that you know, we've got two point
one percent GDP growth for the last nine months and
we're strengthening, strengthening forecasts some of the best actually in
the OECD. We got keywis returning from Australia. I think
(07:29):
that's fourteen percent up. Manufacturing is expanding rapidly. Services have
returned to expansion in June. We've got really strong exports.
Our primary industries are doing extremely well. We've signed up
great free trade agreements where actually the outlook for US
is actually starting to come right.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
It's looking pretty good.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
Good levels of investor, farmer and business confidence is all increasing.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
All the good talking points, Mike, well done. Let me
ask you this, Jinny Hepkins would not or he didn't
say yesterday he was these are the council deals with
local Mari right, he didn't say you'd reverse them. Is
he saying you're not going to reverse them because you're
not going to reverse them, or he just hasn't made
up or you haven't made up your mind yet.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Well, I think it's been as confused in terms of
the way it has been reported, because you know, working
in partnership.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Is a good idea in general, Well.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
That means you're going to flip it?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Or no, well, who are we to stop it? I
think that's more question. Right, So let's look at night.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
That's what you'll have to because the RU may will
prevent them.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Well yeah, but then as then I actually think in
reality you may well see those things happening outside of
the rima Nightahu Farming manages one hundred thousand hectores of
farm and forestry in the South Island and so you know,
of course they're going to get work with it. I
called government in terms of how that.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
You but not at the official level at the council
table making decisions when they're unelected, and that's what's been
you know, killed in the r for No.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Well, I don't think that's what this is. You know
that these are agreements in partnership, so they're not seats
at the necessarily they're how they're working on the ground
and partnership that's what those agreements do well, I think,
and so we don't support that change and all it
will do is lead to more division and more potentially
litigation from EWE against the Crown. It's a waste of
(09:14):
time and money.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
So no, I just think you make a very good point.
Speaker 5 (09:17):
I think Nitahu, from what I've worked with them closer
in the emergency management area, they've.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
Got very very good what they do.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
They've got great relationships with local government and they should
engage and deal with them just like any other key
we your organization does. And yes, we do believe very
strongly that you shouldn't have unelected members making decisions that
elected members have voted them to do. And the replacement
bills originally would have stopped new eweing council agreements while
(09:46):
allowing the exist on existing ones to come over.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
But since the.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
Bills are introduced, we've become aware that there's been a
rapid increase in new agreements and initiative processes between the
councils and eweks. And so this is about stopping scopes,
screep and restoring trust in local government.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Thirty seconds or less, focus on the bait. Thirty seconds
or less, just before my curiosity, does Richard Chambers carry
security winner?
Speaker 4 (10:12):
No, he self drives.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
So the Bush things unusual? The police commissioner of a
state in Australia have securities unusual? You would have.
Speaker 5 (10:19):
Thought, well, number one, like Mike Bush is doing a
great job over there, inherited a soup sandwich, is no
doubt about that. Sometimes, depending on what you're doing, sometimes
the commissioner will have someone driving them depending on what
event he's attending. But basically overall, our commissioner self drives
as I do, but occasionally.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
You do other driver.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
All right, last see you both appreciate it. Make Mitchell
Ginny Anderson.
Speaker 5 (10:41):
For more from The Mike Asking Breakfast, listen live to
news talks that'd be from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
Jenny Anderson's with us Mark Mitchell's weather. Good morning, Monday
morning morning, Morning, Morning, morning, Jenny. How how cool was
it to have question time back yesterday?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
It was? It was wonderful, it was exciting. You didn't
ask a question though, No, not maybe today we'll try
and you've.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Got one today lined up, one line something. Okay, tell
us what give us? Give it to me now?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Okay, becausen't they get surprised? You want to know, Becauzes.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Then they're like, oh, I know, so there's a couple.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
So we've you got to No, you put up a couple. Yeah,
you think of different ones.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Oh no, you're supplementaries. I don't want your supplementaries because
they are the surprise ones. What's your main question? What's
your what's your what's your? And who's By the way, there.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Was your two education potential ones and there is one
to Nicole McKee for fire out ser these three in
the end the maxim we have a meeting at quit
to nine that decides, you know, who gets up, you
do your pitch, you do your elevator pitch.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Who's the who's the final determined or whether your question
gets across the line.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Across usually because Karen mcinaughty is the shadow leader of
the house, so he'll he will have a think about
which one sounds.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
That's a good one, that's a good one there, Yeah, he's.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
A cunning one.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Go for that. He'suns Australian though when we do it,
he's not really Australian.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
He sounds Australian. He wears he wears chinos and hats
like he's Australian. Having said all that, does he go
for does he go for your supplementaries? Does he go now?
If if if I give you that one, Jenny, what's
your supplementary?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
So you get to tum and how many we get
in a day?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
So and we divvy those up right, So usually the
first question, which would go to Chippy or Barbreapins or
whoever's taking the lead, they'll get a couple more, and
then the restless up keep divided out over the other asking.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Questions making you nervous between four and six, you're quaking,
he said, not really, No, it's something.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
I think the listens. I think the listeners are probably thinking.
We move on from that.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
No, question time is do nothing else my gloves question
time and if my career I'm going to make sure
that more New Zealanders are aware of the joy that
is question time.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
You get a few honorable mentions in question Thomas, Yes.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
I do.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Now neither of you correct me if I I'll start
with you, mate, you weren't there when Bill Birch was there?
Were you?
Speaker 4 (02:28):
No? But he worn't with my grandfather, no way.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
Yeah, he's in keebinet to my grandfather and like just
so we knew the family and just huge respect. Incredible man,
very humble, very smart and made a massive contribution to
our country through public service. He still turned up to
National Party functions. He's still there, he still listened, he
gave advice. You know, he's one of those guys that
didn't disappear. He was still there supporting us right through
(02:52):
to the end.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I think even you would agree with I mean you
may not agree with all the policies, Genny, but I
mean that was a serious contribution, wasn't it. Years on
the political life.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Well, you always had those people in cabinet. I suppose
you still do who do more of the work and
who do with that backwork? And I actually listened to
it was that podcast.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
I mentioned previously. You're going to mention it.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
It's the one yeah, yeah, the one that goes. It's
put up by Toby Menheigh and they've done and he
features in that. So it's really interesting to see, you know,
those people behind this who are always right in the front,
but they're often the ones doing the whole lot of
the backwork in the background.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
He was a spring poller of great influence. Now let's talk.
We'll start talking Mark Golden based some means and so
let's not try and make this too political, because you've
done what you've done. You've written sixty million dollars checks.
As a concept, etes versus saving a company versus the
specifics of the company in the New Zealand economy, how
complicated do you think this is as.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
A decision, Well, the eyes is absolutely without a doubt,
had an impact on them financially, but it was considered.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
But whether they come out of these yes.
Speaker 5 (04:02):
But ultimately the government we didn't want to undermine confidence
or the integrity and stability of the ETS and so
you know, it was the side of that a targeted
commercial agreement. It was going to address the resilience issue
that we need as a country. They're the only producer
of cement for us, and we need to make sure
that we secured that.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Is there anything you would have done differently, Jidly?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Well, but the question we've got is why this one
and why not many of the others? And I know
you can't do them all fear, but food security, I
would argue, is just as important. And when you have
vague operations like what ees and the canes who are
shutting down permanently, and when we don't have good, strong
food security, when we're growing all this beautiful food and
can't process it here in New Zealand, why has the
(04:45):
case made that that wasn't just as important to keep
that food production happening in Hawks Bay.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
It's not a bad question, make See. I don't know
that food security is your best example, Jenny, But I mean,
what do you do?
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Mark?
Speaker 1 (04:58):
So you've opened up a Pandora's to a degree, haven't you.
Speaker 5 (05:02):
Yeah, Look, it's not about ranking one industry over another.
But this obviously presented a really unique set of circumstances
and challenges for US as a country. So the deal
is targeted and conditional golden based. Event has to maintain
the best at manufacture right through to thirty first December
twenty forty and they also have to commit at least
one hundred and fifty million of its own investment maintaining jobs,
(05:26):
and they're going to have to meet reporting and audit requirements.
But we had to make sure that we secured, you
know though, the only ones that are actually manufacturing cement
at the levels that we need as a country. And
of course cement is used just about everyone's daily lives, so.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
We understand that logic of it. Now, a good question
from a text, if we're paying for it, why don't
we take a stake in the company?
Speaker 5 (05:51):
Yeah, well, I mean that's obviously a that would be
more a question directed towards the Minister of Finance because
she's been the one that's been doing the heavy lifting
and the heavy work on this. Obviously, it's something that
we do not take light that we do not like
interfering or getting.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Involved in these situations.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
However, governments also have got a responsibility to make sure
that the public in the country has got access to
the to the things that they need.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
But go back to the question Jenny, importantly, would you
guys probably have done the same thing?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah, well, I think there needs to be a broader
response because he's been so many companies go down, So
whether it's just a one off or whether it needs
to be a long term a consideration around the structure
of how the economy is working if we can't have
KEII businesses operating here. The other one that's had an
impact is of course all the puble and paper closures.
(06:41):
The paper I mean, that's the answer from they're supplying
deary so that that's a key link into supplying all
the packaging for for our dairy processing and so that's
from reports and on the ground and talking to people.
That's had a significant impact not just on jobs, but
on the ability of doing that great.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Work for example.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
I think that so I think there's an important question
to weigh out.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Okay, what what about the millions?
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Fine a question.
Speaker 5 (07:07):
Here, I think without a doubt, our story as a
country is one of recovering from a very deep hole,
probably one of the deepest holes in the OECD as
we came out of COVID. But you know, let's focus
on the fact that you know, we've got two point
one percent GDP growth for the last nine months and
we're strengthening, strengthening forecasts some of the best actually in
the OECD. We got keywis returning from Australia. I think
(07:29):
that's fourteen percent up. Manufacturing is expanding rapidly. Services have
returned to expansion in June. We've got really strong exports.
Our primary industries are doing extremely well. We've signed up
great free trade agreements where actually the outlook for US
is actually starting to come right.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
It's looking pretty good.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
Good levels of investor, farmer and business confidence is all increasing.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
All the good talking points, Mike, well done. Let me
ask you this, Jinny Hepkins would not or he didn't
say yesterday he was these are the council deals with
local Mari right, he didn't say you'd reverse them. Is
he saying you're not going to reverse them because you're
not going to reverse them, or he just hasn't made
up or you haven't made up your mind yet.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Well, I think it's been as confused in terms of
the way it has been reported, because you know, working
in partnership.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Is a good idea in general, Well.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
That means you're going to flip it?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Or no, well, who are we to stop it? I
think that's more question. Right, So let's look at night.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
That's what you'll have to because the RU may will
prevent them.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Well yeah, but then as then I actually think in
reality you may well see those things happening outside of
the rima Nightahu Farming manages one hundred thousand hectores of
farm and forestry in the South Island and so you know,
of course they're going to get work with it. I
called government in terms of how that.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
You but not at the official level at the council
table making decisions when they're unelected, and that's what's been
you know, killed in the r for No.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Well, I don't think that's what this is. You know
that these are agreements in partnership, so they're not seats
at the necessarily they're how they're working on the ground
and partnership that's what those agreements do well, I think,
and so we don't support that change and all it
will do is lead to more division and more potentially
litigation from EWE against the Crown. It's a waste of
(09:14):
time and money.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
So no, I just think you make a very good point.
Speaker 5 (09:17):
I think Nitahu, from what I've worked with them closer
in the emergency management area, they've.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
Got very very good what they do.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
They've got great relationships with local government and they should
engage and deal with them just like any other key
we your organization does. And yes, we do believe very
strongly that you shouldn't have unelected members making decisions that
elected members have voted them to do. And the replacement
bills originally would have stopped new eweing council agreements while
(09:46):
allowing the exist on existing ones to come over.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
But since the.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
Bills are introduced, we've become aware that there's been a
rapid increase in new agreements and initiative processes between the
councils and eweks. And so this is about stopping scopes,
screep and restoring trust in local government.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Thirty seconds or less, focus on the bait. Thirty seconds
or less, just before my curiosity, does Richard Chambers carry
security winner?
Speaker 4 (10:12):
No, he self drives.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
So the Bush things unusual? The police commissioner of a
state in Australia have securities unusual? You would have.
Speaker 5 (10:19):
Thought, well, number one, like Mike Bush is doing a
great job over there, inherited a soup sandwich, is no
doubt about that. Sometimes, depending on what you're doing, sometimes
the commissioner will have someone driving them depending on what
event he's attending. But basically overall, our commissioner self drives
as I do, but occasionally.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
You do other driver.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
All right, last see you both appreciate it. Make Mitchell
Ginny Anderson.
Speaker 5 (10:41):
For more from The Mike Asking Breakfast, listen live to
news talks that'd be from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.