September 5, 2026 • 14 mins
In April, former building and construction minister Chris Penk announced a scheme to allow trusted plumbers and drainlayers to self-certify.
This means they can sign off their own work, speeding up building and making it cheaper.
The new plumbing and drainlaying self-certification scheme officially starts tomorrow, 7 September 2026.
Master Plumbers CEO Greg Wallace joined Pete Wolfkamp to discuss the changes.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Resident Builder Podcast with Peter Wolfkamp
from Newstalk ZB. The Resident Builder with Peter Wolfkamp and
independent building supplies. The future of Kiwi building today. Call
0800 80 1080. Newstalk ZB.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
13 minutes after 8. Remember, Ruud Klein passed from 8.30
this morning. So self-certification for plumbing and drain laying is
a new opt-in scheme. that lets endorsed plumbers and drain
layers self-certify, i.e. sign off, eligible work that complies with
the building consent. To join me on the show this morning,
(00:45):
Greg Wallace from the New Zealand Master Plumbers, Gasfitters and
Drain Layers New Zealand Incorporated. A very good morning and
thanks for joining me this morning. Greg, how are you?
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Good morning, Peter. Great to be on. Yeah, cool.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
So I guess the picture... The way in which people
might relate to this is if you've ever had work
done that requires a building consent, we all know that
we have to get council inspectors to come out, whether
as a chippy that's waiting for them to do a
pre-line inspection or a wrap inspection or whatever. But then
if you're a plumber, you're also waiting for them to
come and check that the way that you've plumbed the
(01:22):
mixer in or the way that you've done the terminal
vent to the toilet or whatever needs to be done.
So potentially from tomorrow... That's going to change.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yeah, it is. And look, it's been a long battle
to get here, but it is great collaboration that we've
had with the government and MV and the regulator. to
prove the point that we've got great quality tradespeople in
New Zealand, and particularly the plumbing trade, which does a
(01:54):
five-year qualification, so three years to sit an exam for tradesperson,
and then another two years to get certified. So it's
a little bit unusual. They sit two exams, they get
a a qualification to say they're certified, but they actually
can't certify a new building. And same for drain line,
you know, they do a two-year exam, then another year
(02:17):
to get certified. And it's really important that we get
some productivity gains in the construction industry for New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Because, you know, God bless building inspectors and councils and
all the rest of it, but, you know, everyone that
you talk to in the trade goes, look, I want
to backfill this trench, but I can't get an inspection
for three days, and in the meantime, no other work
can continue. So I guess that productivity gain potentially can
come from eliminating the time spent waiting for those inspections.
(02:46):
The other thing, just by way of, I suppose, to
try and paint a picture for our listeners, is that
for years now, electrical work, so again, think about a renovation,
think about a new build, Electrician turns up, they run
all the cables, they connect to the distribution board, they
fit off all of that. They self-certify if they have
(03:06):
the suitable qualifications. So I guess in a sense, it's
not dissimilar to a regime that already exists for electricians
up to now and for gas fitters, interestingly enough.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yeah, so gas fit has been self-certifying since 2013. And
a lot of people would argue that there may be
a high risk for gas fitting for obvious reasons. Yes.
But the reality is, I think your point is right.
You said three to four days to wait for an inspection. Well,
we knew after COVID and still today, we can wait
(03:37):
to 10 to 14 days.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I'm being generous.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Yeah. I spoke to a drain layer the other day.
He said he basically... has sleepless nights, particularly in Auckland
with your weather, where he's got an open trench, he's
laid his pipes, it can be up to 100 metres,
and he's lying awake at night thinking that his pipes
are going to be floating away. Now, that's not practical.
(04:02):
And with new technology, including apps, video, and photography, we're
actually also trialling a tool which is an AI tool
which takes photos takes those images, drops it into an
AI tool, and then it proves that the installation is compliant. Brilliant.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Brilliant.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Now, the other thing in reading this and reading some
of the government papers on this, it's an opt-in scheme.
So can you just work me through? So it's saying
it's for eligible. So self-certification, it's an opt-in. So endorsed
plumbers and drain layers what does that endorsed actually mean.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Yeah it's a good question um peter we have a
plumbing gas fitting drain layer regulator and look you you
will have to apply on monday and we imagine we'll
get a lot of our practitioners applying you will then
have to prove that uh prove that you have appropriate
assurance yep you'll have to prove that you have a.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Can we just focus in on that? Because this is
something kind of new to the industry. So what you're
saying is in order to become endorsed, you need to apply,
you need to prove that you have insurance.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Yes, you do. And particularly around indemnity insurance. Now, just
about all master plumber practitioners have to have a minimum
insurance level for our membership. The one that has always
been a bit grey is indemnity insurance. And indemnity insurance
is when you're designing. Now, the reality is when we're
getting residential builds, we don't always get a plumbing design
(05:44):
as part of that. And so when you're designing a system,
it's really important that you have indemnity insurance. So you're
designing and doing the insulation. Now, you'll know on site
things change. Builders put things in the way or practical
solutions have to be worked out on site. And that's
actually just design. It's just knowing which is the most
(06:08):
practical place to put the water pipes, to put the
sanitary plumbing, and then working that through with the builder
and the architect. So there's that. There's also a quality
assurance program. So we've got members in Queensland and Wanaka
using drones to take images of all the pre-slab work.
(06:31):
And so we've got great technology that's actually helping. And
then our practitioners will also have to do a two-hour
training scheme online, just so they're understanding the evidence that
they'll need to provide to make sure that the consenting
authorities are accepting that the work meets the relevant standards.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
I think it's great. So in terms of, obviously.
Plumbers and drain layers and gas fitters have been doing
maintenance work forever, right? And if it doesn't require a consent,
there's obviously no reason to get a plumbing inspector to
come and have a look.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
At the work.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
So this is for work that requires a building consent,
but it will be able to be signed off by
the endorsed plumber who's proved their competency in this area.
So at the end of the job, what's the endorsement?
What's the sort of approval? What's the assurity for the homeowner?
Is it a producer statement as per what we've been
(07:33):
doing already? Or is there a new document to prove
that self-certification thing? I'm thinking about electricians who might issue
a COC at the end of the job.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Yeah, there still will be a PS3 required for most jobs.
But I suppose the advantage of this job is we're
going to use an app created by brands called Artisan.
We'll take photos on that app. We'll have a digital record.
You'll also have the practitioner that has signed that off.
And that stays as a record of work for that dwelling. Now,
(08:05):
the advantage of that is the photos or the video
evidence will be uploaded to the cloud. And then a
homeowner who purchased that property will be able to exactly
know what plumber did it, what year it was, and
have the imagery to back that up. Now, when there's...
(08:26):
When there's a leak or a nail goes through the pipe,
it's actually very helpful to have the digital records. Now,
we haven't had that before, so we think this is
a huge improvement, able to look back at work that's
been done over decades.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
And this is where the technology has actually become useful now.
And Artisan is a great app. Um, and, and again,
for people listening, artisan can be used by builders in
terms of remote inspections as well. That's one of those
things that's in the pipeline for us, pardon the pun, uh,
for us as well. Uh, but, but obviously, I mean, I,
I look, I think it's a good thing. I think that, um,
(09:05):
you know, I guess from a consumer point of view,
we want to make sure that it's not open slather, right. That,
that somehow, because the inspector's not looking over your shoulder.
that the work's not going to be done well or correctly.
Because I think also, you know, often with plumbing and
drainage work and that sort of thing, we underestimate the complexity.
(09:26):
And I think, too, as consumers, we sometimes underestimate the
safety element, the health element to it, that when it
does go wrong, it can have quite severe impacts on
either the people inside the house or neighbours or, you know,
someone's got, any raw sewerage floating across their section because
somebody left out a junction you know we want to
(09:48):
make sure that we don't see that.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Yeah look i absolutely agree i think the point that
you made about renovations so in new zealand any plumber
can come uh to an existing bathroom renovation it can
you can move the fixtures all around that existing bathroom
you can pre-pipe it. You can change the sanitary plumbing
and refit that out. Now, under Schedule 1, you'll know this,
(10:12):
you don't need a plumbing consent or a drainer's consent.
So all we're doing really is, so we have been
self-certifying for renovations and repairs for decades. All we're doing
is taking some new technology and putting that into the
new construction. I think, you know, the Prime Minister has
(10:33):
said this many times in construction forums. It is 50%
cheaper to build a house in Australia than it is
New Zealand. Now, we know we've got earthquakes. We know
we've got weather conditions. But they've got productivity gains, Peter,
and those gains we need to get in the construction
to actually bring construction costs down.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Yeah, I mean, look, we can have a long discussion
about that. I think sometimes you look at Australian building
quality and it's pretty poor, to be blunt. But just
before we go, I knew this was going to happen.
So a person listening to this has ticked through, and
I'm just going to read it out verbatim, right? Hey Pete,
surely anyone can see that self-certification is a disaster waiting
(11:15):
to happen. It's a licence for rogue tradies to run
riot and it's only there so that councils can advocate
their enforcement responsibility. Talking about letting the lunatics run the
asylum from Ron. Your response?
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Look, we've got an amazing qualified industry that take, you know,
for PGD, it takes seven years to get the qualifications, right?
They're backed up by evidence, which is photographic evidence. They
have to go through training. They have to submit it.
I mean, when I go to the doctor, I don't
(11:51):
go and get another doctor to come and assess if
he's giving me the right penicillin. You know, we're trying to...
make the tradespeople responsible for the work, and they will
be held to account. There are audits, there are processes
in place, and there's safety checks. Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Look, I tend to agree with you. Because in the end,
what we're talking about, and again, reading from the building.gov.nz website,
it's an opt-in scheme for endorsed plumbers and drain layers, right?
So not everyone's going to reach the threshold. There will
be people working who just won't be allowed to sign
off their own work. So now, for a homeowner or
(12:32):
a person commissioning a new build, how do you know
if your plumber has been endorsed and is eligible to self-certify?
Speaker 3 (12:42):
So it has to be part of the consenting process.
So there will be a tick box to say, do
you want to self-certify the plumbing and drain laying on
this property? Yep. Homeowners can choose not to do that,
but they will get all the additional costs and time
delays on that. What we're saying is, isn't it best
that the trades people are responsible for their work? And look,
(13:05):
they are responsible for renovation and repairs, and so there's
no balance in check for that, and we haven't had
failures across renovation and repairs. So all we're doing is
taking this programme to new builds, The other point I'll
say in Australia, particularly in Victoria, they've had the scheme
for 20 years, right? There's been no failures of any significance,
(13:28):
particularly in Victoria with this program. And look, You know,
it also moves into light commercial. And so some plumbers
are having to get up four inspectors, it's inspections, to
just put a little kitchenette in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In
a cafe. And look, if we can't, if the industry
(13:48):
can't put a kitchenette in a cafe and do that efficiency,
then we've got more problems than this scheme. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Look, I think that the scheme seems to be well
worked out. It's going to be robust.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
It is opt-in.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
You do have to be endorsed. You do have to
provide evidence that you've got insurance, and there are some
checks and balances, and using the technology to then determine.
You can look back in a year and go, well, actually,
that buddy Y-junction's facing the wrong way. No wonder it's blocking, right?
So I think, broadly speaking, it's a great idea. Thanks
(14:22):
for all the work that you've done on this, because
I know, as you mentioned, it takes a while to
get the wheels in government moving on things like this,
but your work and the work of your team to
get this underway is great. And people should read a
little bit more, maybe go to your website or have
a look at the building.gov.nz website. It's got quite a
lot of information as well. Greg, thanks very much for
(14:43):
your time this morning. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
Thanks very much, Peter.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Pleasure to talk.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Take care.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
For more from the resident builder with Peter Wolfkamp, listen
live to Newstalk ZB on Sunday mornings from 6 or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Resident Builder Podcast with Peter Wolfkamp
from Newstalk ZB. The Resident Builder with Peter Wolfkamp and
independent building supplies. The future of Kiwi building today. Call
0800 80 1080. Newstalk ZB.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
13 minutes after 8. Remember, Ruud Klein passed from 8.30
this morning. So self-certification for plumbing and drain laying is
a new opt-in scheme. that lets endorsed plumbers and drain
layers self-certify, i.e. sign off, eligible work that complies with
the building consent. To join me on the show this morning,
(00:45):
Greg Wallace from the New Zealand Master Plumbers, Gasfitters and
Drain Layers New Zealand Incorporated. A very good morning and
thanks for joining me this morning. Greg, how are you?
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Good morning, Peter. Great to be on. Yeah, cool.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
So I guess the picture... The way in which people
might relate to this is if you've ever had work
done that requires a building consent, we all know that
we have to get council inspectors to come out, whether
as a chippy that's waiting for them to do a
pre-line inspection or a wrap inspection or whatever. But then
if you're a plumber, you're also waiting for them to
come and check that the way that you've plumbed the
(01:22):
mixer in or the way that you've done the terminal
vent to the toilet or whatever needs to be done.
So potentially from tomorrow... That's going to change.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yeah, it is. And look, it's been a long battle
to get here, but it is great collaboration that we've
had with the government and MV and the regulator. to
prove the point that we've got great quality tradespeople in
New Zealand, and particularly the plumbing trade, which does a
(01:54):
five-year qualification, so three years to sit an exam for tradesperson,
and then another two years to get certified. So it's
a little bit unusual. They sit two exams, they get
a a qualification to say they're certified, but they actually
can't certify a new building. And same for drain line,
you know, they do a two-year exam, then another year
(02:17):
to get certified. And it's really important that we get
some productivity gains in the construction industry for New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Because, you know, God bless building inspectors and councils and
all the rest of it, but, you know, everyone that
you talk to in the trade goes, look, I want
to backfill this trench, but I can't get an inspection
for three days, and in the meantime, no other work
can continue. So I guess that productivity gain potentially can
come from eliminating the time spent waiting for those inspections.
(02:46):
The other thing, just by way of, I suppose, to
try and paint a picture for our listeners, is that
for years now, electrical work, so again, think about a renovation,
think about a new build, Electrician turns up, they run
all the cables, they connect to the distribution board, they
fit off all of that. They self-certify if they have
(03:06):
the suitable qualifications. So I guess in a sense, it's
not dissimilar to a regime that already exists for electricians
up to now and for gas fitters, interestingly enough.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yeah, so gas fit has been self-certifying since 2013. And
a lot of people would argue that there may be
a high risk for gas fitting for obvious reasons. Yes.
But the reality is, I think your point is right.
You said three to four days to wait for an inspection. Well,
we knew after COVID and still today, we can wait
(03:37):
to 10 to 14 days.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I'm being generous.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Yeah. I spoke to a drain layer the other day.
He said he basically... has sleepless nights, particularly in Auckland
with your weather, where he's got an open trench, he's
laid his pipes, it can be up to 100 metres,
and he's lying awake at night thinking that his pipes
are going to be floating away. Now, that's not practical.
(04:02):
And with new technology, including apps, video, and photography, we're
actually also trialling a tool which is an AI tool
which takes photos takes those images, drops it into an
AI tool, and then it proves that the installation is compliant. Brilliant.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Brilliant.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Now, the other thing in reading this and reading some
of the government papers on this, it's an opt-in scheme.
So can you just work me through? So it's saying
it's for eligible. So self-certification, it's an opt-in. So endorsed
plumbers and drain layers what does that endorsed actually mean.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Yeah it's a good question um peter we have a
plumbing gas fitting drain layer regulator and look you you
will have to apply on monday and we imagine we'll
get a lot of our practitioners applying you will then
have to prove that uh prove that you have appropriate
assurance yep you'll have to prove that you have a.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Can we just focus in on that? Because this is
something kind of new to the industry. So what you're
saying is in order to become endorsed, you need to apply,
you need to prove that you have insurance.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Yes, you do. And particularly around indemnity insurance. Now, just
about all master plumber practitioners have to have a minimum
insurance level for our membership. The one that has always
been a bit grey is indemnity insurance. And indemnity insurance
is when you're designing. Now, the reality is when we're
getting residential builds, we don't always get a plumbing design
(05:44):
as part of that. And so when you're designing a system,
it's really important that you have indemnity insurance. So you're
designing and doing the insulation. Now, you'll know on site
things change. Builders put things in the way or practical
solutions have to be worked out on site. And that's
actually just design. It's just knowing which is the most
(06:08):
practical place to put the water pipes, to put the
sanitary plumbing, and then working that through with the builder
and the architect. So there's that. There's also a quality
assurance program. So we've got members in Queensland and Wanaka
using drones to take images of all the pre-slab work.
(06:31):
And so we've got great technology that's actually helping. And
then our practitioners will also have to do a two-hour
training scheme online, just so they're understanding the evidence that
they'll need to provide to make sure that the consenting
authorities are accepting that the work meets the relevant standards.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
I think it's great. So in terms of, obviously.
Plumbers and drain layers and gas fitters have been doing
maintenance work forever, right? And if it doesn't require a consent,
there's obviously no reason to get a plumbing inspector to
come and have a look.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
At the work.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
So this is for work that requires a building consent,
but it will be able to be signed off by
the endorsed plumber who's proved their competency in this area.
So at the end of the job, what's the endorsement?
What's the sort of approval? What's the assurity for the homeowner?
Is it a producer statement as per what we've been
(07:33):
doing already? Or is there a new document to prove
that self-certification thing? I'm thinking about electricians who might issue
a COC at the end of the job.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Yeah, there still will be a PS3 required for most jobs.
But I suppose the advantage of this job is we're
going to use an app created by brands called Artisan.
We'll take photos on that app. We'll have a digital record.
You'll also have the practitioner that has signed that off.
And that stays as a record of work for that dwelling. Now,
(08:05):
the advantage of that is the photos or the video
evidence will be uploaded to the cloud. And then a
homeowner who purchased that property will be able to exactly
know what plumber did it, what year it was, and
have the imagery to back that up. Now, when there's...
(08:26):
When there's a leak or a nail goes through the pipe,
it's actually very helpful to have the digital records. Now,
we haven't had that before, so we think this is
a huge improvement, able to look back at work that's
been done over decades.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
And this is where the technology has actually become useful now.
And Artisan is a great app. Um, and, and again,
for people listening, artisan can be used by builders in
terms of remote inspections as well. That's one of those
things that's in the pipeline for us, pardon the pun, uh,
for us as well. Uh, but, but obviously, I mean, I,
I look, I think it's a good thing. I think that, um,
(09:05):
you know, I guess from a consumer point of view,
we want to make sure that it's not open slather, right. That,
that somehow, because the inspector's not looking over your shoulder.
that the work's not going to be done well or correctly.
Because I think also, you know, often with plumbing and
drainage work and that sort of thing, we underestimate the complexity.
(09:26):
And I think, too, as consumers, we sometimes underestimate the
safety element, the health element to it, that when it
does go wrong, it can have quite severe impacts on
either the people inside the house or neighbours or, you know,
someone's got, any raw sewerage floating across their section because
somebody left out a junction you know we want to
(09:48):
make sure that we don't see that.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Yeah look i absolutely agree i think the point that
you made about renovations so in new zealand any plumber
can come uh to an existing bathroom renovation it can
you can move the fixtures all around that existing bathroom
you can pre-pipe it. You can change the sanitary plumbing
and refit that out. Now, under Schedule 1, you'll know this,
(10:12):
you don't need a plumbing consent or a drainer's consent.
So all we're doing really is, so we have been
self-certifying for renovations and repairs for decades. All we're doing
is taking some new technology and putting that into the
new construction. I think, you know, the Prime Minister has
(10:33):
said this many times in construction forums. It is 50%
cheaper to build a house in Australia than it is
New Zealand. Now, we know we've got earthquakes. We know
we've got weather conditions. But they've got productivity gains, Peter,
and those gains we need to get in the construction
to actually bring construction costs down.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Yeah, I mean, look, we can have a long discussion
about that. I think sometimes you look at Australian building
quality and it's pretty poor, to be blunt. But just
before we go, I knew this was going to happen.
So a person listening to this has ticked through, and
I'm just going to read it out verbatim, right? Hey Pete,
surely anyone can see that self-certification is a disaster waiting
(11:15):
to happen. It's a licence for rogue tradies to run
riot and it's only there so that councils can advocate
their enforcement responsibility. Talking about letting the lunatics run the
asylum from Ron. Your response?
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Look, we've got an amazing qualified industry that take, you know,
for PGD, it takes seven years to get the qualifications, right?
They're backed up by evidence, which is photographic evidence. They
have to go through training. They have to submit it.
I mean, when I go to the doctor, I don't
(11:51):
go and get another doctor to come and assess if
he's giving me the right penicillin. You know, we're trying to...
make the tradespeople responsible for the work, and they will
be held to account. There are audits, there are processes
in place, and there's safety checks. Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Look, I tend to agree with you. Because in the end,
what we're talking about, and again, reading from the building.gov.nz website,
it's an opt-in scheme for endorsed plumbers and drain layers, right?
So not everyone's going to reach the threshold. There will
be people working who just won't be allowed to sign
off their own work. So now, for a homeowner or
(12:32):
a person commissioning a new build, how do you know
if your plumber has been endorsed and is eligible to self-certify?
Speaker 3 (12:42):
So it has to be part of the consenting process.
So there will be a tick box to say, do
you want to self-certify the plumbing and drain laying on
this property? Yep. Homeowners can choose not to do that,
but they will get all the additional costs and time
delays on that. What we're saying is, isn't it best
that the trades people are responsible for their work? And look,
(13:05):
they are responsible for renovation and repairs, and so there's
no balance in check for that, and we haven't had
failures across renovation and repairs. So all we're doing is
taking this programme to new builds, The other point I'll
say in Australia, particularly in Victoria, they've had the scheme
for 20 years, right? There's been no failures of any significance,
(13:28):
particularly in Victoria with this program. And look, You know,
it also moves into light commercial. And so some plumbers
are having to get up four inspectors, it's inspections, to
just put a little kitchenette in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In
a cafe. And look, if we can't, if the industry
(13:48):
can't put a kitchenette in a cafe and do that efficiency,
then we've got more problems than this scheme. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Look, I think that the scheme seems to be well
worked out. It's going to be robust.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
It is opt-in.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
You do have to be endorsed. You do have to
provide evidence that you've got insurance, and there are some
checks and balances, and using the technology to then determine.
You can look back in a year and go, well, actually,
that buddy Y-junction's facing the wrong way. No wonder it's blocking, right?
So I think, broadly speaking, it's a great idea. Thanks
(14:22):
for all the work that you've done on this, because
I know, as you mentioned, it takes a while to
get the wheels in government moving on things like this,
but your work and the work of your team to
get this underway is great. And people should read a
little bit more, maybe go to your website or have
a look at the building.gov.nz website. It's got quite a
lot of information as well. Greg, thanks very much for
(14:43):
your time this morning. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
Thanks very much, Peter.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Pleasure to talk.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Take care.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
For more from the resident builder with Peter Wolfkamp, listen
live to Newstalk ZB on Sunday mornings from 6 or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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