March 5, 2026 • 8 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Was promoted as taking the Northern Territory health system into
the digital age, but it's been plagued with delays, cost
blowouts and clinical concern around patient safety. Despite this, anti
health officials have defended the more than three hundred million
dollar system. Now this week, more hearings have been held
(00:20):
by a parliamentary committee into the rollout of ACACIA, and
one person who gave evidence to the Public Accounts Committee
is the head of the Australian Medical Association's Northern Territory branch,
doctor John Zorberst. Good morning to you.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
John, Good morning Katie, Good morning to everybody listening this morning.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Thank you so much for your time this morning. Now,
you gave evidence earlier in the week about ACACIA. What
did you want to get across to the committee.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
The feedback that we get from our doctors is that
the way that clinical governance is being done, the way
that we look at patient safety risks, just really isn't
working for the front line. So when we see issues
on the ground that are being reported, they're not being
escalated in the way that we'd expect. It's more about
the technical rather than the clinical, and we think that
(01:08):
that's the wrong way around for a project like ACACIA.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Tell me more about some of the concerns, some of
the you know, some of what's happened as it's been
rolling out. And what's the feedback being from people you
know within the health department that are there on the
ground working.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, so we get feedback every day around usability processes
that usually were fast under the old legacy systems. And
let's be clear, the legacy systems, they're done. You know,
there's nobody supporting those anymore. We have to transition away
from those. That was the whole point of this back
in twenty sixteen. But nonetheless, the new system is much
(01:47):
slower than the old system. They're running into errors like
people being misidentified as far as next of kinner concerned,
or the wrong people being booked for clinics. Now it's
not resulting in harm because so as a human is
catching the problem and a human fixing the problem. But
that costs money and that takes up time. So these
are doctors, nurses, support staff who otherwise should be working
(02:11):
in our areas of the health system, who are having
to fix problems created by the software.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
John, talk me like so as it currently seats have
all the old systems been phased out and you have
to use a CASHA or how does it currently seat.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, so it's a mismash of systems. Now you bring
a new system online, there's always going to be a
transition period. And in the inquiry I mentioned it's you know,
at once a casia started, we started walking across quicksand,
and you need to keep moving, and you need to
move fast. What we have at the moment is a
bit of a mixed situation where we still have to
use multiple systems at once, so our doctors will have three,
(02:48):
four or five systems open to find the information that
they need. That's a pain point that's always there in transition.
But right now we've implemented part of akasha. We've essentially
hit the pause, but there's no further funding or not
enough funding to actually complete a KASHA, and so these
legacy systems, some of them are still running, some have
been switched off, but a lot of still running and
(03:10):
we're standing still on the quicksand. That's the worst place
to be. Whether we finish a CASHA as it was
envisioned back in twenty sixteen, or whether we have a
new solution, you know, either or but we can't stay
where we are.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
John, Look, what are some of the biggest issues that
you are dealing with when it comes to AKASHA and
some of the issues that you feel are really impacting
patient safety.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, we exist to be the voice of doctors. That's
the whole reason the OMA exists. And I think i've
you know, the statement two weeks prior to when I
spoke to the inquiry saying there are no patient safety
concerns associated with a CASHA really really hit a pretty
negative chord with doctors. There are hundreds of concerns that
have been raised. Now I'm not saying all of these
(03:57):
concerns are resulting in front page headlines. But the problem
with risk in the clinical world is everything's just managed
by workarounds, right, So the risk is there. Even the
best systems have risk, but there's always humans bailing the
system out. As those humans get busier and busier, we
start to see things slipt through the cracks, and then
you've got a headline, and then you know someone has
(04:19):
come to harm who shouldn't have come to harm. Because
let's remember, this isn't just about doctors using a piece
of software. This is about doctors providing care to some
of the sickest people in the country. We need the
best systems that we can to be able to provide
safe care.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Doctors orbis like, we're too from here. Obviously, this parliamentary
inquiry is happening where all of the major concerns are
being heard. I think it's absolutely fundamental that these happens
so that, you know, so that those that are in
decision making positions in our Northern Territory Parliament actually understand
that this system is flawed and that people are really
(04:54):
very worried about it. But you know, we're too from
here because obviously, you know, we need to see to
be able to operate within our hospitals. But the one
that we've you know, this one that we're talking about
that it's meant to be taking us into, you know,
into the digital age, sounds as though it's been an
absolute nightmare.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
To put it mildly, Yeah, this is a great opportunity
for everybody to just hit the reset switch, right. This
is a great opportunity for us to sit there and
say what we've got so far, where we are at
the moment, you know, that's where we're starting from. Where
are we going to and how are we going to
get there? In our submission to the inquiry, which is
publicly available on the Parliament website, we've we've got a
(05:36):
series of recommendations at the end, and a lot of
them are really just about looking at the budgeting, looking
at the clinical governance, so making sure that patient safety
concerns are fun and center and using this is a
bit of a moment to say, look, we can't just
keep pouring cash into something that doesn't seem to be
working as well as it needs to be right now,
how are we going to redesign this for us? From
(05:56):
where the doctor stands, you know, this is about the
clinical safety of the system, and that's where we want
to see input taken seriously and be part of whatever
comes next.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Doctors Orbis, have you managed to stay in there for
much of the other you know, for many of the
other people who've been speaking. I know that there was
a lot of concerns about culture of toxic you know,
toxic environment at work. Matt Cunningham had reported very extensively
about it. Contractor Sean Joyce, we know that he was bullied,
(06:27):
in harassed before his death. His family, I understand spoke
as well, did you hear any of that evidence?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
So I had to go back to work, unfortunately, and
I wasn't able to stay. But I'm familiar with the
story and it's a really horrible tragic outcome for the
Joyce family and I really feel for them. While I
can't speak to the culture inside DCDD inside health at
the time that we first rolled a cashare out and
we had to roll it back, they were some of
the worst days for doctors. We had people who were
(06:56):
reduced to years, who were used to working in war zones.
It was really really horrible from a cultural point of view,
and the fact that they were able to take the
decision to roll the system back then and hit the resets,
which you know, I commend them for making that decision
because politically that was not a good decision to make.
They got beat up for it, but that was the
right thing to do. I can't speak to DCDD, but
(07:19):
I do know going forward, we should take those moments
to pause when things aren't working, When your frontline staff
are telling you things are wrong, you have to stop.
You have to take notice before you go too far
down a path that you can't come back from.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Well, doctor John Zorbis, I really hope that by you know,
this this inquiry happening, the committee looking more closely into Akasha,
that we you know, that we see those changes so
that doctors, nurses, everybody that is you know there inside
our healthcare system is able to use it and that
patient you know, patient safety is is front and center.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yeah, one hundred percent. And look, Katie, I've been on
your show a few times talking about you know, we've
got to say glass half fall, and I am optimist
about this, like I don't think this is a recoverable
I think we can fix this going forward. Our doctors
are very keen to be part of that conversation. We're
ready to be part of what comes next. And you know,
let's move forward in a way that helps Territorians and
helps us deliver the care that we want to deliver
(08:15):
to our patients.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Well, doctor John Zorber's good to speak with you this morning.
I really appreciate it. I hear you're on night shift
last night, so I thank you for taking the time
to chat.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
With us anytime, any time, having me.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Thanks so much,
Was promoted as taking the Northern Territory health system into
the digital age, but it's been plagued with delays, cost
blowouts and clinical concern around patient safety. Despite this, anti
health officials have defended the more than three hundred million
dollar system. Now this week, more hearings have been held
(00:20):
by a parliamentary committee into the rollout of ACACIA, and
one person who gave evidence to the Public Accounts Committee
is the head of the Australian Medical Association's Northern Territory branch,
doctor John Zorberst. Good morning to you.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
John, Good morning Katie, Good morning to everybody listening this morning.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Thank you so much for your time this morning. Now,
you gave evidence earlier in the week about ACACIA. What
did you want to get across to the committee.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
The feedback that we get from our doctors is that
the way that clinical governance is being done, the way
that we look at patient safety risks, just really isn't
working for the front line. So when we see issues
on the ground that are being reported, they're not being
escalated in the way that we'd expect. It's more about
the technical rather than the clinical, and we think that
(01:08):
that's the wrong way around for a project like ACACIA.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Tell me more about some of the concerns, some of
the you know, some of what's happened as it's been
rolling out. And what's the feedback being from people you
know within the health department that are there on the
ground working.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, so we get feedback every day around usability processes
that usually were fast under the old legacy systems. And
let's be clear, the legacy systems, they're done. You know,
there's nobody supporting those anymore. We have to transition away
from those. That was the whole point of this back
in twenty sixteen. But nonetheless, the new system is much
(01:47):
slower than the old system. They're running into errors like
people being misidentified as far as next of kinner concerned,
or the wrong people being booked for clinics. Now it's
not resulting in harm because so as a human is
catching the problem and a human fixing the problem. But
that costs money and that takes up time. So these
are doctors, nurses, support staff who otherwise should be working
(02:11):
in our areas of the health system, who are having
to fix problems created by the software.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
John, talk me like so as it currently seats have
all the old systems been phased out and you have
to use a CASHA or how does it currently seat.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, so it's a mismash of systems. Now you bring
a new system online, there's always going to be a
transition period. And in the inquiry I mentioned it's you know,
at once a casia started, we started walking across quicksand,
and you need to keep moving, and you need to
move fast. What we have at the moment is a
bit of a mixed situation where we still have to
use multiple systems at once, so our doctors will have three,
(02:48):
four or five systems open to find the information that
they need. That's a pain point that's always there in transition.
But right now we've implemented part of akasha. We've essentially
hit the pause, but there's no further funding or not
enough funding to actually complete a KASHA, and so these
legacy systems, some of them are still running, some have
been switched off, but a lot of still running and
(03:10):
we're standing still on the quicksand. That's the worst place
to be. Whether we finish a CASHA as it was
envisioned back in twenty sixteen, or whether we have a
new solution, you know, either or but we can't stay
where we are.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
John, Look, what are some of the biggest issues that
you are dealing with when it comes to AKASHA and
some of the issues that you feel are really impacting
patient safety.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, we exist to be the voice of doctors. That's
the whole reason the OMA exists. And I think i've
you know, the statement two weeks prior to when I
spoke to the inquiry saying there are no patient safety
concerns associated with a CASHA really really hit a pretty
negative chord with doctors. There are hundreds of concerns that
have been raised. Now I'm not saying all of these
(03:57):
concerns are resulting in front page headlines. But the problem
with risk in the clinical world is everything's just managed
by workarounds, right, So the risk is there. Even the
best systems have risk, but there's always humans bailing the
system out. As those humans get busier and busier, we
start to see things slipt through the cracks, and then
you've got a headline, and then you know someone has
(04:19):
come to harm who shouldn't have come to harm. Because
let's remember, this isn't just about doctors using a piece
of software. This is about doctors providing care to some
of the sickest people in the country. We need the
best systems that we can to be able to provide
safe care.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Doctors orbis like, we're too from here. Obviously, this parliamentary
inquiry is happening where all of the major concerns are
being heard. I think it's absolutely fundamental that these happens
so that, you know, so that those that are in
decision making positions in our Northern Territory Parliament actually understand
that this system is flawed and that people are really
(04:54):
very worried about it. But you know, we're too from
here because obviously, you know, we need to see to
be able to operate within our hospitals. But the one
that we've you know, this one that we're talking about
that it's meant to be taking us into, you know,
into the digital age, sounds as though it's been an
absolute nightmare.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
To put it mildly, Yeah, this is a great opportunity
for everybody to just hit the reset switch, right. This
is a great opportunity for us to sit there and
say what we've got so far, where we are at
the moment, you know, that's where we're starting from. Where
are we going to and how are we going to
get there? In our submission to the inquiry, which is
publicly available on the Parliament website, we've we've got a
(05:36):
series of recommendations at the end, and a lot of
them are really just about looking at the budgeting, looking
at the clinical governance, so making sure that patient safety
concerns are fun and center and using this is a
bit of a moment to say, look, we can't just
keep pouring cash into something that doesn't seem to be
working as well as it needs to be right now,
how are we going to redesign this for us? From
(05:56):
where the doctor stands, you know, this is about the
clinical safety of the system, and that's where we want
to see input taken seriously and be part of whatever
comes next.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Doctors Orbis, have you managed to stay in there for
much of the other you know, for many of the
other people who've been speaking. I know that there was
a lot of concerns about culture of toxic you know,
toxic environment at work. Matt Cunningham had reported very extensively
about it. Contractor Sean Joyce, we know that he was bullied,
(06:27):
in harassed before his death. His family, I understand spoke
as well, did you hear any of that evidence?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
So I had to go back to work, unfortunately, and
I wasn't able to stay. But I'm familiar with the
story and it's a really horrible tragic outcome for the
Joyce family and I really feel for them. While I
can't speak to the culture inside DCDD inside health at
the time that we first rolled a cashare out and
we had to roll it back, they were some of
the worst days for doctors. We had people who were
(06:56):
reduced to years, who were used to working in war zones.
It was really really horrible from a cultural point of view,
and the fact that they were able to take the
decision to roll the system back then and hit the resets,
which you know, I commend them for making that decision
because politically that was not a good decision to make.
They got beat up for it, but that was the
right thing to do. I can't speak to DCDD, but
(07:19):
I do know going forward, we should take those moments
to pause when things aren't working, When your frontline staff
are telling you things are wrong, you have to stop.
You have to take notice before you go too far
down a path that you can't come back from.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Well, doctor John Zorbis, I really hope that by you know,
this this inquiry happening, the committee looking more closely into Akasha,
that we you know, that we see those changes so
that doctors, nurses, everybody that is you know there inside
our healthcare system is able to use it and that
patient you know, patient safety is is front and center.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yeah, one hundred percent. And look, Katie, I've been on
your show a few times talking about you know, we've
got to say glass half fall, and I am optimist
about this, like I don't think this is a recoverable
I think we can fix this going forward. Our doctors
are very keen to be part of that conversation. We're
ready to be part of what comes next. And you know,
let's move forward in a way that helps Territorians and
helps us deliver the care that we want to deliver
(08:15):
to our patients.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Well, doctor John Zorber's good to speak with you this morning.
I really appreciate it. I hear you're on night shift
last night, so I thank you for taking the time
to chat.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
With us anytime, any time, having me.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Thanks so much,
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