Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Australian newspaper is this morning reporting the five year
old girl allegedly murdered in Alice Springs was the subject
of six child protection reports since mid March and was
living in a dangerous environment. That is what sources familiar
with the case have told the Australian newspaper. Now, according
to the report by Liam Mendez, police made the last
(00:21):
notification to the Northern Territories Department of Children and Families
two days before she went missing in Alice Springs on
April twenty five. The report was in relation to an
alleged assault on her mum. Now we know that Jefferson
Lewis has been charged and appeared in court accused of
murdering Little Baby kuman Jai as she's now known. Joining
(00:45):
me on the line is the Minister for Children and Families,
Robin Carl. Good morning to you, Minister.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Ah, good morning Katie, and good morning to your listeners, Minister.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
The report claims that more than a dozen child protection
reports What's have been made about Kumanjai little Baby since infancy,
but no investigation had been launched. As a result of
the six to six most recent reports is that the case.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
So Katie, I'm bound by the legislation in relation to
talking about specifics, but what I can tell you is
that on the Monday I reached out to their department
when it was becoming increasingly obvious that this was not
going to have a happy ending for Baby Kumenji little Baby,
and was basically told that there really wasn't any significant
(01:40):
concerns that had been notified, and I said, well, I
really need to be certain of this. Can you please
make sure you give me the detail. It took a
week for them to get back to me, after me
pushing through saying have you got the information yet? What's happening?
So late on Friday I received a brief that indicated
(02:00):
that the advice I'd been given on the Monday was incorrect,
and as a result of that, I directed to an
investigation to see how could this be the case and
how could this happen? And I can advise that that
investigation is underway and as of today, three people have
been stood down in response to the findings of the
(02:22):
investigation so far, and quite frankly, Katie, I'm just horrified
that we are talking about a situation that every people
across the country are saying how could this possibly happen?
How could this little one be in a situation where
she was placed at risk? And I I words can't
(02:44):
express just how angry I am. That work that we've
been doing over the last few months, where I have
absolutely said, above all else, the safety of children is
what counts most, has not gotten through to those people
on the ground.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
So you're telling me this morning that as a result
of what you've now learned over the last few days,
following on from these reports being made to children and
families to the department, and from what is reported it
not being followed up on by the department, three staff
members have now been stood down.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
That's correct, Katie, and I'm also instigating an investigation of
the departmental structure as a whole. You'd be aware I've
talked to you about this previously on your show that
it's been something that I've been incredibly concerned about that
above all else, the approach has been reunification with family,
(03:46):
which of course is important, but not at the expense
of the well being safety of a child. And so
I've been working really, really hard over the last twelve
months to get reform in place in this space I've
experienced significant pushback from a range of people, both within
the department and without the department. I've been told I've
(04:08):
been racist, that I'm targeting Aboriginal children, and i just
want to emphasize I'm not doing that. What is important
to me is that every child is safe. Every child matters,
and we need to be dealing with every situation in
exactly the same way and above all else, the best
interest and safety of children must prevail. And Katie will
(04:29):
probably shock people to learn that in our current child
protection legislation and the underpinning principle, safety isn't even mentioned.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
How is that even possible that safety is not even mentioned.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, it's a five logic. But I can tell you
that in the reform agenda I've been running, not only
has it's been elevated to the top two priorities in
considering the safety of children. And we're pushing through on
that reform agenda. We're finalizing the last pieces of it currently.
I'm really hope to be able to bring that forward
(05:02):
in the not too distant future, because nothing else matters
in the situation with these childrens. I absolutely appreciate that
sometimes parents find themselves in really difficult situations, and we
will do everything we can to help the family as
a whole. But at the end of the day, if
we can't guarantee the safety of a child, it is
(05:22):
absolutely paramount that we put that child somewhere safe and
then we do the work with the family to see
if we can rectify the situation.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Minnistota, I know that you've said right from the get
go you're not able to go into the details of
what's happened in this situation, But can you tell me
and tell our listeners if there is a report that
comes through to children and families. So if the police
contact children and families and say there is a situation
where they're concerned about the safety of a child for
(05:54):
whatever reason, what is the process in terms of follow up?
How quick is somebody from the department supposed to go
out and see where the further support is required.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
So the first thing they do, Katie, is assessed the
risk profile of the notification and then it's classified into
three distinct areas and then depending on the classification and
the time frame is set as to how quickly the
investigation or the assessment on the ground has to happen
(06:28):
and it is compared. It veries depending on the severity,
but the maximum time frame is ten days.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
I mean in this report that is in the paper.
And again I'm mindful of what you can and cannot say,
but it is reported that police responded to two reports
in March and another four in April, and sources said
that the mum had sought protection in a woman's shelter
and following the most recent alleged incident on April twenty two, well,
(06:59):
there was arrest made to the person who had allegedly
assaulted her and he's in custody. In your opinion, as
the minister, what action should have happened at this point,
and if we can't go into detail about that case,
in your opinion, what action should happen if there is
a woman that's in a domestic violent situation where she's
(07:20):
fleeing with kids, and should there be that follow up?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Oh? Absolutely, Katie, I think that without going into the
specifics of this particular situation, I think any situation where
domestic violence exists and you have the person who is
the victim of that domestic violence fleeing the situation, it's
absolutely paramount on us to work with them. To get
them safe and then to follow up and make sure
(07:46):
that they remain safe. And we all know the challenges
of victims of domestic violence, the challenges that are faced
in extricating yourself from those situations, and the absolute pressure
that is placed on some of our Aboriginal women through
the community connections and the cultural connections, and we absolutely
(08:06):
need to make sure that we support them as much
as possible. And at the end of the day, if
it means that we have to place their children somewhere
safe and then work with the mum or the dad separately,
then we should be doing that.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
It's reported in the paper in the Australian the police
are privately outraged at the inaction from the department in
relation to this. Are you outraged?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
I'm not privately outraged. I'm publicly outraged. I cannot get
my head around how this sort of situation occurs, and unfortunately, Katie,
it's the approach taken in assessments of notifications is something
that I have been looking at for the last few months.
I have reviewed many, many cases and have been asking
(08:57):
for additional explanation as to why you can have a
child who has multiple notifications over a number of years,
and yet it takes six, seven, sometimes eight nine years
before they are actually put into a safe care environment.
And I'll be honest, I have not had a satisfactory
explanation yet. And that's one of the reasons why I
(09:19):
think we need a full independent investigation on how this
is being managed.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Minister, this kind of rhetorica is going to get pushed
back by some groups in terms of taking children away.
It is a very sensitive space. How do we how
do you get everybody on board to take action, but
also you know, give the family that space to grief.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Look, I think the reality is really simple. I cannot
comprehend any how anyone could look at a situation where
a child is daily exposed to domestic violence, alcohol abuse,
unsafe lived in conditions and not expect that someone would
step in and make that situation better. And of course
(10:06):
the optimal situation is you make that situation better with
the family. But if that's not possible, then you have
to break the circuit. You have to go get kids,
get the little one safe or the older one safe,
whatever their age is, get them into an environment where
we know that the harm can be stopped, and then
go back and work with the family, because the absolute
(10:26):
focus should be getting that family into a functional environment
that's safe, and that's the place where you want to
see children raised. But if it's not possible, then we
have to be we have to be realistic about this.
We cannot abandon these kids, and quite frankly, that is
what we have done. And people being too afraid to
(10:48):
call it out because they're scared of being accused of
creating another stolen generation is absolute rubbish and we absolutely
should be looking at the safety and well being of
these children. Take a look at that little girl's picture
and tell me that you don't think she deserved to be.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Safe, Minister. Do you think that this tragedy could have
been prevented if staff had acted and gone out and
checked on her and her mum?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Look, And that's one of those hypotheticals what if, could have,
should have? And I really can't say, But what I
can say is that we need to do everything possible
to create the best possible environment to reduce the risk
of those things happening in the future. And I mean,
let's really be honest. The absolute crime here is that
(11:38):
there was a monster in that community who took advantage
of that little one, and sadly, there are monsters amongst
us on a daily basis who don't reveal themselves until
it's too late, and so I could that be preventable?
It's impossible to say. But what I do know is
that we have an obligation to learn from this situation
(12:00):
and make sure we create the best possible framework to
keep all of our kids safe, because every child matters,
every child deserves the best possible future, and it's beholden
on us to make sure that we provide that to them.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Minister, does the Department have the funding, have what they
require to be able to do the work that it
sounds like you expect of them and you want of them,
particularly if we do see some legislative changes.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Absolutely. I think one of the things I've been working
on with the department is how do we reframe what
we deliver? How we are we actually delivering in the
appropriate spaces? Are we getting the outcomes that we believe
we should and should we be directing funding in different manners.
There's absolutely the funding available there. I think what's missing
(12:53):
is the framework and the immediacy of the need to
actually act is what's missing. And look, I know that
the people who work in this area do a really
tough job. I understand how challenging it is, and I
understand that sometimes it must feel like no matter what
they do, they just can't make a difference. But I
(13:14):
don't believe that that's the case. I believe we can
make a difference, and we must do our best to
make sure that we do make a difference.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
And is there enough cultural support and buy in from
indigenous groups as well?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
The people that I've spoken to on the ground. I mean,
there are the noisy advocacy groups who it won't matter
what I do, they'll hate it. I've bet, like I
said earlier, I've been called racist many times, and I'm
okay with that. The people I talk to on the ground,
the grandmas and the great grandmas, they are begging for help,
they are begging for assistance, and they are saying, please,
(13:50):
we need to do things differently. And they're the people
I will listen.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
To minister to anybody out there listening this morning, that
is you know, that is saying or thinking to themselves,
you know, are you proposing that you take Aboriginal children
away from their family? You know, is is this race based?
What do you say to those people.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Well, what I say is that we've created universal principles
that apply to every single child. It doesn't matter what
your background is, it doesn't matter what your culture is,
your religion is, what you're where, which country you came from.
What matters is that you are as a child has
have the right to be safe and secure. And so
it's absolutely not the case. We are saying every child,
(14:38):
every single child in our community, deserves to be supported
and protected and safe and we will do everything we
can to make that happen. And the first port of
care will always be to find a safe place with family.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Minister Robin Carl, the Minister for Children and Families in
the Northern Tierra, we will let you get into Parliament.
I appreciate your time this morning.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Thanks Katie, thank you
The Australian newspaper is this morning reporting the five year
old girl allegedly murdered in Alice Springs was the subject
of six child protection reports since mid March and was
living in a dangerous environment. That is what sources familiar
with the case have told the Australian newspaper. Now, according
to the report by Liam Mendez, police made the last
(00:21):
notification to the Northern Territories Department of Children and Families
two days before she went missing in Alice Springs on
April twenty five. The report was in relation to an
alleged assault on her mum. Now we know that Jefferson
Lewis has been charged and appeared in court accused of
murdering Little Baby kuman Jai as she's now known. Joining
(00:45):
me on the line is the Minister for Children and Families,
Robin Carl. Good morning to you, Minister.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Ah, good morning Katie, and good morning to your listeners, Minister.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
The report claims that more than a dozen child protection
reports What's have been made about Kumanjai little Baby since infancy,
but no investigation had been launched. As a result of
the six to six most recent reports is that the case.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
So Katie, I'm bound by the legislation in relation to
talking about specifics, but what I can tell you is
that on the Monday I reached out to their department
when it was becoming increasingly obvious that this was not
going to have a happy ending for Baby Kumenji little Baby,
and was basically told that there really wasn't any significant
(01:40):
concerns that had been notified, and I said, well, I
really need to be certain of this. Can you please
make sure you give me the detail. It took a
week for them to get back to me, after me
pushing through saying have you got the information yet? What's happening?
So late on Friday I received a brief that indicated
(02:00):
that the advice I'd been given on the Monday was incorrect,
and as a result of that, I directed to an
investigation to see how could this be the case and
how could this happen? And I can advise that that
investigation is underway and as of today, three people have
been stood down in response to the findings of the
(02:22):
investigation so far, and quite frankly, Katie, I'm just horrified
that we are talking about a situation that every people
across the country are saying how could this possibly happen?
How could this little one be in a situation where
she was placed at risk? And I I words can't
(02:44):
express just how angry I am. That work that we've
been doing over the last few months, where I have
absolutely said, above all else, the safety of children is
what counts most, has not gotten through to those people
on the ground.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
So you're telling me this morning that as a result
of what you've now learned over the last few days,
following on from these reports being made to children and
families to the department, and from what is reported it
not being followed up on by the department, three staff
members have now been stood down.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
That's correct, Katie, and I'm also instigating an investigation of
the departmental structure as a whole. You'd be aware I've
talked to you about this previously on your show that
it's been something that I've been incredibly concerned about that
above all else, the approach has been reunification with family,
(03:46):
which of course is important, but not at the expense
of the well being safety of a child. And so
I've been working really, really hard over the last twelve
months to get reform in place in this space I've
experienced significant pushback from a range of people, both within
the department and without the department. I've been told I've
(04:08):
been racist, that I'm targeting Aboriginal children, and i just
want to emphasize I'm not doing that. What is important
to me is that every child is safe. Every child matters,
and we need to be dealing with every situation in
exactly the same way and above all else, the best
interest and safety of children must prevail. And Katie will
(04:29):
probably shock people to learn that in our current child
protection legislation and the underpinning principle, safety isn't even mentioned.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
How is that even possible that safety is not even mentioned.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, it's a five logic. But I can tell you
that in the reform agenda I've been running, not only
has it's been elevated to the top two priorities in
considering the safety of children. And we're pushing through on
that reform agenda. We're finalizing the last pieces of it currently.
I'm really hope to be able to bring that forward
(05:02):
in the not too distant future, because nothing else matters
in the situation with these childrens. I absolutely appreciate that
sometimes parents find themselves in really difficult situations, and we
will do everything we can to help the family as
a whole. But at the end of the day, if
we can't guarantee the safety of a child, it is
(05:22):
absolutely paramount that we put that child somewhere safe and
then we do the work with the family to see
if we can rectify the situation.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Minnistota, I know that you've said right from the get
go you're not able to go into the details of
what's happened in this situation, But can you tell me
and tell our listeners if there is a report that
comes through to children and families. So if the police
contact children and families and say there is a situation
where they're concerned about the safety of a child for
(05:54):
whatever reason, what is the process in terms of follow up?
How quick is somebody from the department supposed to go
out and see where the further support is required.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
So the first thing they do, Katie, is assessed the
risk profile of the notification and then it's classified into
three distinct areas and then depending on the classification and
the time frame is set as to how quickly the
investigation or the assessment on the ground has to happen
(06:28):
and it is compared. It veries depending on the severity,
but the maximum time frame is ten days.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
I mean in this report that is in the paper.
And again I'm mindful of what you can and cannot say,
but it is reported that police responded to two reports
in March and another four in April, and sources said
that the mum had sought protection in a woman's shelter
and following the most recent alleged incident on April twenty two, well,
(06:59):
there was arrest made to the person who had allegedly
assaulted her and he's in custody. In your opinion, as
the minister, what action should have happened at this point,
and if we can't go into detail about that case,
in your opinion, what action should happen if there is
a woman that's in a domestic violent situation where she's
(07:20):
fleeing with kids, and should there be that follow up?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Oh? Absolutely, Katie, I think that without going into the
specifics of this particular situation, I think any situation where
domestic violence exists and you have the person who is
the victim of that domestic violence fleeing the situation, it's
absolutely paramount on us to work with them. To get
them safe and then to follow up and make sure
(07:46):
that they remain safe. And we all know the challenges
of victims of domestic violence, the challenges that are faced
in extricating yourself from those situations, and the absolute pressure
that is placed on some of our Aboriginal women through
the community connections and the cultural connections, and we absolutely
(08:06):
need to make sure that we support them as much
as possible. And at the end of the day, if
it means that we have to place their children somewhere
safe and then work with the mum or the dad separately,
then we should be doing that.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
It's reported in the paper in the Australian the police
are privately outraged at the inaction from the department in
relation to this. Are you outraged?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
I'm not privately outraged. I'm publicly outraged. I cannot get
my head around how this sort of situation occurs, and unfortunately, Katie,
it's the approach taken in assessments of notifications is something
that I have been looking at for the last few months.
I have reviewed many, many cases and have been asking
(08:57):
for additional explanation as to why you can have a
child who has multiple notifications over a number of years,
and yet it takes six, seven, sometimes eight nine years
before they are actually put into a safe care environment.
And I'll be honest, I have not had a satisfactory
explanation yet. And that's one of the reasons why I
(09:19):
think we need a full independent investigation on how this
is being managed.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Minister, this kind of rhetorica is going to get pushed
back by some groups in terms of taking children away.
It is a very sensitive space. How do we how
do you get everybody on board to take action, but
also you know, give the family that space to grief.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Look, I think the reality is really simple. I cannot
comprehend any how anyone could look at a situation where
a child is daily exposed to domestic violence, alcohol abuse,
unsafe lived in conditions and not expect that someone would
step in and make that situation better. And of course
(10:06):
the optimal situation is you make that situation better with
the family. But if that's not possible, then you have
to break the circuit. You have to go get kids,
get the little one safe or the older one safe,
whatever their age is, get them into an environment where
we know that the harm can be stopped, and then
go back and work with the family, because the absolute
(10:26):
focus should be getting that family into a functional environment
that's safe, and that's the place where you want to
see children raised. But if it's not possible, then we
have to be we have to be realistic about this.
We cannot abandon these kids, and quite frankly, that is
what we have done. And people being too afraid to
(10:48):
call it out because they're scared of being accused of
creating another stolen generation is absolute rubbish and we absolutely
should be looking at the safety and well being of
these children. Take a look at that little girl's picture
and tell me that you don't think she deserved to be.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Safe, Minister. Do you think that this tragedy could have
been prevented if staff had acted and gone out and
checked on her and her mum?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Look, And that's one of those hypotheticals what if, could have,
should have? And I really can't say, But what I
can say is that we need to do everything possible
to create the best possible environment to reduce the risk
of those things happening in the future. And I mean,
let's really be honest. The absolute crime here is that
(11:38):
there was a monster in that community who took advantage
of that little one, and sadly, there are monsters amongst
us on a daily basis who don't reveal themselves until
it's too late, and so I could that be preventable?
It's impossible to say. But what I do know is
that we have an obligation to learn from this situation
(12:00):
and make sure we create the best possible framework to
keep all of our kids safe, because every child matters,
every child deserves the best possible future, and it's beholden
on us to make sure that we provide that to them.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Minister, does the Department have the funding, have what they
require to be able to do the work that it
sounds like you expect of them and you want of them,
particularly if we do see some legislative changes.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Absolutely. I think one of the things I've been working
on with the department is how do we reframe what
we deliver? How we are we actually delivering in the
appropriate spaces? Are we getting the outcomes that we believe
we should and should we be directing funding in different manners.
There's absolutely the funding available there. I think what's missing
(12:53):
is the framework and the immediacy of the need to
actually act is what's missing. And look, I know that
the people who work in this area do a really
tough job. I understand how challenging it is, and I
understand that sometimes it must feel like no matter what
they do, they just can't make a difference. But I
(13:14):
don't believe that that's the case. I believe we can
make a difference, and we must do our best to
make sure that we do make a difference.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
And is there enough cultural support and buy in from
indigenous groups as well?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
The people that I've spoken to on the ground. I mean,
there are the noisy advocacy groups who it won't matter
what I do, they'll hate it. I've bet, like I
said earlier, I've been called racist many times, and I'm
okay with that. The people I talk to on the ground,
the grandmas and the great grandmas, they are begging for help,
they are begging for assistance, and they are saying, please,
(13:50):
we need to do things differently. And they're the people
I will listen.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
To minister to anybody out there listening this morning, that
is you know, that is saying or thinking to themselves,
you know, are you proposing that you take Aboriginal children
away from their family? You know, is is this race based?
What do you say to those people.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Well, what I say is that we've created universal principles
that apply to every single child. It doesn't matter what
your background is, it doesn't matter what your culture is,
your religion is, what you're where, which country you came from.
What matters is that you are as a child has
have the right to be safe and secure. And so
it's absolutely not the case. We are saying every child,
(14:38):
every single child in our community, deserves to be supported
and protected and safe and we will do everything we
can to make that happen. And the first port of
care will always be to find a safe place with family.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Minister Robin Carl, the Minister for Children and Families in
the Northern Tierra, we will let you get into Parliament.
I appreciate your time this morning.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Thanks Katie, thank you
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