September 9, 2026 • 10 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now, if there is one thing you do today, that's
ask someone, are you OK? A simple conversation can remind
someone that they do not have to carry a difficult
experience alone. And for our first responders, it could be
especially important. And joining me on the show is St
John N.T. Chaplin.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Daryl Shaw, good morning to you, Daryl.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Good morning, Katie.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Lovely to have you in the studio and so nice
to meet you.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Now, tell me, you know firsthand the toll of witnessing
some of the most difficult moments on the frontline.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
R U OK?
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Day and the idea behind it, it's an important one,
isn't it?
Speaker 3 (00:40):
It's really a reminder because for frontline responders, Katie, every
day needs to be R U OK? Day. It's a
case of, you know, these guys have to deal with
whatever comes over the horizon. And it might be a
quiet day or it might be a traumatic day. It's just...
whatever happens. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
And you just don't know what could be coming that day.
And I can't imagine, you know, for some people, like you,
you might get a bit of a pit in your
tummy when you're on your way to work as well.
And you don't really know what could be.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Coming, right?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I'm all too familiar with that feeling.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Yeah. And, you know, we've all been there in different
ways at different times. But, you know, as you touched
on for our first responders, it's, you know, like you
could be turning up to a crash. You can be
turning up to, to just about anything, and you don't
really know what's coming your way.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah, that's right. And asking someone, are you okay, it's
really symbolic because if you use those words, are you okay,
it's a closed sentence, a closed question, and they can say, yeah,
I'm good, and just walk away. But if you make
it not just a closed question but a conversation, hey, mate,
(01:53):
you seem a bit off today. Or I heard you
went to a really bad job. I was just wondering
how you're doing. So I thought I'd check in with
you and make it more conversational, which is one way
of getting them to open up. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
And listen to the response as well, right?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Listening is incredibly important.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
In chaplaincy, we call it compassionate listening, which means giving
that person your full attention, looking them in the eye,
hearing what they're saying, being present. Don't let your mind
wander and look at the clock on the wall or whatever.
Just it's you and them in that space. Yeah. There's
a beautiful quote by a Buddhist monk called Thich Nhat Hanh,
(02:35):
which says, you listen with only one purpose, to help
that person empty their heart. And really that's what it's about.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
That is such a, like it's a really nice thing
to hear. You know, when you actually have a discussion
with someone that you hear what they've got to say.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yeah, it's such an important thing because I feel like
sometimes we get really busy and you kind of go
through the motions of, you know, maybe saying, hey, are
you okay? But you don't actually genuinely hear what the
person answers.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
It's like when you come to work and you're walking
down the corridor, walking down the hallway and someone walks
past and says, hi, Des, how are you today? And
they keep walking. Yeah. I sort of think, well, hang on,
if you stop, I'll let you know.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I'll tell you.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, I'll let you know how I'm actually going.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Now, tell me, you were on the frontline seeing some
pretty horrific stuff, I can imagine.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
You know, for a lot of our frontline workers, it
takes its toll, doesn't it?
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Oh, it definitely does. And it doesn't necessarily need to
be one event. It can be cumulative and it can
build up slowly. And I think, too, we need to
consider our call takers in the communication centre because they're
the ones that are hearing what's happened. They're hearing the
(03:52):
screaming mother who's got an injured child or whatever, and
it affects them as well.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
I can't even begin to imagine how much it would
affect you because I know on different occasions here in
this studio, I've had really difficult conversations with people where
they've gone through absolute trauma and they'll call in and
they want to tell their story and they want to
be heard and they want to talk about what's happened
to them. And you feel it yourself. You know, you
can feel that sadness that people are experiencing. So then
(04:21):
for those call takers, it'd be really tough to sort of,
to leave work then that day and let that stuff go.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
And a lot of the time you can't.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
That's right. It's very hard. I actually did two years
in the communication centre. So I know how difficult it
is for those people. And they do tend to get
forgotten a bit. Everyone thinks about the ambos out on
the road, attending traumatic events, car crashes, what have you. Um,
But really, it's everybody involved. Everybody in the organisation is
affected in some way.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
So tell me, what is the role of a chaplain?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Well, a chaplain can provide support. A chaplain can refer
to a psychologist or a counsellor if it's something that
might be out of their realm. But also a chaplain
can offer spiritual support, And really the key to it
(05:18):
is hearing what they're saying, supporting them in whatever way
is meaningful to that person and just walking alongside them
during that process.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Daryl, I know not everybody has a chaplain at work.
Unfortunately for us, you know, we may not have somebody
that we can reach out to or that we can
talk to. What do you say to anybody listening this
morning that's thinking, you know, I wish I could go
and have a chat to somebody and feel like they're
listening and feel like they could maybe point me in
the right direction.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Yeah, well, most workplaces these days, Katie, have an employee
assistance program, which gives the employees access to a counsellor
for a limited number of sessions. For mum at home,
I mean, they carry a lot of stress They carry
(06:10):
the burden of responsibility of looking after the family and
the home and cooking meals and all of that. Really,
the best option is for them to go and have
a chat to their GP and get a referral from them. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Now, tell me, I know it can be really difficult
for someone to open up and to discuss these potentially
heavy thoughts and feelings. What's your advice to someone who
is maybe struggling to do that?
Speaker 3 (06:38):
It's difficult because... Someone who is in need of support,
they can open up and tell you as much or
as little as they're comfortable with. Yeah. And oftentimes as
a chaplain, we're required to not just hear what they're saying,
but hear what they're not saying and try and read
(06:59):
between the lines. And sometimes you'll think, hang on a minute,
there's something else going on here. Yep.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Yeah. Even your job would be a tough one, listening
to and trying to help people when they're in their
toughest moment, right?
Speaker 3 (07:14):
You got that right. Because we can be very prone
to vicarious trauma just by hearing other people's stories. So
it's critical, not just for the paramedics and the emergency
call takers, but also for those in a support role
to have self-care, good self-care strategies in place to look
(07:39):
after themselves. And that can just be going down to
the beach, watching a sunset, having a glass of wine
if you like one, Yeah. You're nodding.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
I'm thinking I wouldn't mind doing all those things today, Daryl.
If I can go for a walk to the sunset
to have a glass of wine, that might be nice.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
That's a good self-care strategy. It is. It's one I
love doing, to be honest, Katie.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
And just getting out in the fresh air sometimes, hey. Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Getting those negative ions in, you know.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
I always say to my kids, you know, if you're
up early in the morning, especially on the weekends, and
you get out in the fresh.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Air and you watch that sunrise... It does a lot
for the soul, I think.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
You know, it makes you feel just a bit different
when you can get out there and do that.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
It does. It connects you with the world you're living in.
You know, it connects you with nature. Yeah. And I
like to say it connects you with creation because it's
all out there, you know. You've just got to breathe
it in. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, so true.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Surrender your agenda, go with the flow and breathe. Yeah.
Just breathe.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
That is good advice.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
I feel like we could literally have you in here
for an hour, Daryl, just giving us all advice to cope,
you know, to get through at different times.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Mate, I really appreciate your time this morning.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
You know, if anybody is listening this morning and they
want to get some further info, they can of course
go to ruok.org.au. You know, a big thanks to all
of our, you know, to everybody that works at St
John as well and all of our frontline workers for
the work that they do It can be really tough.
I've no doubt about that. And we've had people message
(09:15):
through even this morning saying, Katie, no one should ever
dismiss the distress.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
That their own job has on them. No job.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Is suffering for others because our abilities all differ. So
I guess the sentiment there is it sort of doesn't
matter what you do for a living or like you
touched on before, even if you're an at-home mum or
somebody at home dealing with With other stressors, we've all
got stressors in different ways and you shouldn't diminish those.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
That's exactly right. Life presents us all, each and every
one of us, with difficult challenges at times. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Well, Daryl, I really appreciate you joining us in the
studio this morning.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Thank you very much. It was a pleasure for me too, Kate.
You have a good day.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
You too.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Thank you.
Now, if there is one thing you do today, that's
ask someone, are you OK? A simple conversation can remind
someone that they do not have to carry a difficult
experience alone. And for our first responders, it could be
especially important. And joining me on the show is St
John N.T. Chaplin.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Daryl Shaw, good morning to you, Daryl.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Good morning, Katie.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Lovely to have you in the studio and so nice
to meet you.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Now, tell me, you know firsthand the toll of witnessing
some of the most difficult moments on the frontline.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
R U OK?
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Day and the idea behind it, it's an important one,
isn't it?
Speaker 3 (00:40):
It's really a reminder because for frontline responders, Katie, every
day needs to be R U OK? Day. It's a
case of, you know, these guys have to deal with
whatever comes over the horizon. And it might be a
quiet day or it might be a traumatic day. It's just...
whatever happens. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
And you just don't know what could be coming that day.
And I can't imagine, you know, for some people, like you,
you might get a bit of a pit in your
tummy when you're on your way to work as well.
And you don't really know what could be.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Coming, right?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I'm all too familiar with that feeling.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Yeah. And, you know, we've all been there in different
ways at different times. But, you know, as you touched
on for our first responders, it's, you know, like you
could be turning up to a crash. You can be
turning up to, to just about anything, and you don't
really know what's coming your way.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah, that's right. And asking someone, are you okay, it's
really symbolic because if you use those words, are you okay,
it's a closed sentence, a closed question, and they can say, yeah,
I'm good, and just walk away. But if you make
it not just a closed question but a conversation, hey, mate,
(01:53):
you seem a bit off today. Or I heard you
went to a really bad job. I was just wondering
how you're doing. So I thought I'd check in with
you and make it more conversational, which is one way
of getting them to open up. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
And listen to the response as well, right?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Listening is incredibly important.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
In chaplaincy, we call it compassionate listening, which means giving
that person your full attention, looking them in the eye,
hearing what they're saying, being present. Don't let your mind
wander and look at the clock on the wall or whatever.
Just it's you and them in that space. Yeah. There's
a beautiful quote by a Buddhist monk called Thich Nhat Hanh,
(02:35):
which says, you listen with only one purpose, to help
that person empty their heart. And really that's what it's about.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
That is such a, like it's a really nice thing
to hear. You know, when you actually have a discussion
with someone that you hear what they've got to say.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yeah, it's such an important thing because I feel like
sometimes we get really busy and you kind of go
through the motions of, you know, maybe saying, hey, are
you okay? But you don't actually genuinely hear what the
person answers.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
It's like when you come to work and you're walking
down the corridor, walking down the hallway and someone walks
past and says, hi, Des, how are you today? And
they keep walking. Yeah. I sort of think, well, hang on,
if you stop, I'll let you know.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I'll tell you.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, I'll let you know how I'm actually going.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Now, tell me, you were on the frontline seeing some
pretty horrific stuff, I can imagine.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
You know, for a lot of our frontline workers, it
takes its toll, doesn't it?
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Oh, it definitely does. And it doesn't necessarily need to
be one event. It can be cumulative and it can
build up slowly. And I think, too, we need to
consider our call takers in the communication centre because they're
the ones that are hearing what's happened. They're hearing the
(03:52):
screaming mother who's got an injured child or whatever, and
it affects them as well.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
I can't even begin to imagine how much it would
affect you because I know on different occasions here in
this studio, I've had really difficult conversations with people where
they've gone through absolute trauma and they'll call in and
they want to tell their story and they want to
be heard and they want to talk about what's happened
to them. And you feel it yourself. You know, you
can feel that sadness that people are experiencing. So then
(04:21):
for those call takers, it'd be really tough to sort of,
to leave work then that day and let that stuff go.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
And a lot of the time you can't.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
That's right. It's very hard. I actually did two years
in the communication centre. So I know how difficult it
is for those people. And they do tend to get
forgotten a bit. Everyone thinks about the ambos out on
the road, attending traumatic events, car crashes, what have you. Um,
But really, it's everybody involved. Everybody in the organisation is
affected in some way.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
So tell me, what is the role of a chaplain?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Well, a chaplain can provide support. A chaplain can refer
to a psychologist or a counsellor if it's something that
might be out of their realm. But also a chaplain
can offer spiritual support, And really the key to it
(05:18):
is hearing what they're saying, supporting them in whatever way
is meaningful to that person and just walking alongside them
during that process.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Daryl, I know not everybody has a chaplain at work.
Unfortunately for us, you know, we may not have somebody
that we can reach out to or that we can
talk to. What do you say to anybody listening this
morning that's thinking, you know, I wish I could go
and have a chat to somebody and feel like they're
listening and feel like they could maybe point me in
the right direction.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Yeah, well, most workplaces these days, Katie, have an employee
assistance program, which gives the employees access to a counsellor
for a limited number of sessions. For mum at home,
I mean, they carry a lot of stress They carry
(06:10):
the burden of responsibility of looking after the family and
the home and cooking meals and all of that. Really,
the best option is for them to go and have
a chat to their GP and get a referral from them. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Now, tell me, I know it can be really difficult
for someone to open up and to discuss these potentially
heavy thoughts and feelings. What's your advice to someone who
is maybe struggling to do that?
Speaker 3 (06:38):
It's difficult because... Someone who is in need of support,
they can open up and tell you as much or
as little as they're comfortable with. Yeah. And oftentimes as
a chaplain, we're required to not just hear what they're saying,
but hear what they're not saying and try and read
(06:59):
between the lines. And sometimes you'll think, hang on a minute,
there's something else going on here. Yep.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Yeah. Even your job would be a tough one, listening
to and trying to help people when they're in their
toughest moment, right?
Speaker 3 (07:14):
You got that right. Because we can be very prone
to vicarious trauma just by hearing other people's stories. So
it's critical, not just for the paramedics and the emergency
call takers, but also for those in a support role
to have self-care, good self-care strategies in place to look
(07:39):
after themselves. And that can just be going down to
the beach, watching a sunset, having a glass of wine
if you like one, Yeah. You're nodding.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
I'm thinking I wouldn't mind doing all those things today, Daryl.
If I can go for a walk to the sunset
to have a glass of wine, that might be nice.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
That's a good self-care strategy. It is. It's one I
love doing, to be honest, Katie.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
And just getting out in the fresh air sometimes, hey. Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Getting those negative ions in, you know.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
I always say to my kids, you know, if you're
up early in the morning, especially on the weekends, and
you get out in the fresh.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Air and you watch that sunrise... It does a lot
for the soul, I think.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
You know, it makes you feel just a bit different
when you can get out there and do that.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
It does. It connects you with the world you're living in.
You know, it connects you with nature. Yeah. And I
like to say it connects you with creation because it's
all out there, you know. You've just got to breathe
it in. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, so true.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Surrender your agenda, go with the flow and breathe. Yeah.
Just breathe.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
That is good advice.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
I feel like we could literally have you in here
for an hour, Daryl, just giving us all advice to cope,
you know, to get through at different times.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Mate, I really appreciate your time this morning.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
You know, if anybody is listening this morning and they
want to get some further info, they can of course
go to ruok.org.au. You know, a big thanks to all
of our, you know, to everybody that works at St
John as well and all of our frontline workers for
the work that they do It can be really tough.
I've no doubt about that. And we've had people message
(09:15):
through even this morning saying, Katie, no one should ever
dismiss the distress.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
That their own job has on them. No job.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Is suffering for others because our abilities all differ. So
I guess the sentiment there is it sort of doesn't
matter what you do for a living or like you
touched on before, even if you're an at-home mum or
somebody at home dealing with With other stressors, we've all
got stressors in different ways and you shouldn't diminish those.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
That's exactly right. Life presents us all, each and every
one of us, with difficult challenges at times. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Well, Daryl, I really appreciate you joining us in the
studio this morning.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Thank you very much. It was a pleasure for me too, Kate.
You have a good day.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
You too.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Thank you.
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