Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now a news which absolutely horrified the nation. We know
that Joshua Dale Brown was charged with more than seventy
offenses relating to allegations involving eight alleged victims at a
childcare center in Melbourne's southeast. Now, he was not known
to police and did have a valid working with Children card,
(00:23):
which has since been canceled. Yesterday, detectives investigating him charged
a second man, Michael Simon Wilson, in relation to child abuse,
material and sex offenses. Now, the situation, as I said,
has horrified people around the nation, particularly in pearents with
(00:43):
young kids in childcare and those that work in childcare centers.
We know there are so many incredible childcare workers. Now
the federal government is now looking at reforms that would
standardize working with children checks across the country. Joining me
on the line is the Territory Childcare Group director Sarah Lloyd.
(01:04):
Good morning, Sarah, good morning.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I was actually quite pleased when you added there that
not only our family is devastated, but so is the sector.
You know, we're equally devastated that this has happened.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I bet you guys are, because you know, like for me,
my kids are older now, but like the childcare workers
at the center that my kids went to literally help
me raise my kids. They did an incredibly phenomenal job,
and you know the absolute majority of childcare workers do.
(01:39):
But then you've got a grub like this that works
in a center and has done what he's done, and
it must make you, guys feel really upset and angry.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah, absolutely it does. And we're in a very regulated environment.
You know, we do have a lot of legislation and protections,
but it's a really around the application of you know,
of how we're applying that. And I do when I
definitely have some opinions on the measures that the government's
looking at putting in in the you know of fast tracking.
(02:12):
Some are good, some I don't think are the answer.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Yeah, so talk us through exactly what they're sort of
from your understanding what they're proposing, because I know the
federal government flag that these reforms would standardize the working
with children checks. You know, what, what is your understanding
of what they're looking at changing across Australia.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, Well, they're interesting part with the working with children checks,
Like every jurisdiction's got its own version of that. I mean,
I think what the part that people don't understand with
that is they're unless you're criminally convicted of an offense
against children, nothing's going to be flagged. So it's a
little bit of a teethless tiger. I think, you know,
it's good. You know, obviously we need to have them,
(02:53):
but it's not the sole answer because you know, it
sounds like, you know, in this particular case we've just had,
he hadn't been convicted of anything criminal, so it wouldn't
have come up on a working the children's check anyway.
So I definitely leap onto the bandwagon of screening. There's
(03:13):
a few you know, there's quite a few things that
can be done. One is, you know, in the first instance,
have an environment that is not attractive to people with
ill intentions. You know, if you you know that that's
the workplace culture, you know, coming straight in that that
that sort of behavior or any like slight indication that
(03:35):
there was something wrong, you take action. You know that
that's one, you know, one of the foremost parts of it.
Another thing I do think needs to be added in
this case is from what I've seen in the media,
it looks like he was an agency staff. There there's
a means he wasn't directly employed by the center. But
but you know, if they're short of staff or or
(03:57):
comes in. So in the end, we don't have a
lot of that. I know in other jurisdictions, in some
centers that you know, primarily staffed for agency stuff with
most most services years, would be a very high percentage
of direct employees see the center. That is a different
That is a point of difference that needs to be
(04:21):
factored in in spafeguarding.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
I mean from your perspective, you know, some of the
reforms that they're talking about. I think the point you've
made there, like that screening, because as you've rightly pointed out,
this person had a valid working with children card. So
changing you know, the working with children cards and the
way in which that rolls out, Like, I don't know
whether that's going to make a difference, because if someone
(04:45):
doesn't have a criminal record, then unless you're you know,
unless you're screening them and going all right, I don't
feel as though this person's right for the job or
right to even be an agency worker. There's really nothing
that would have stopped this guy potentially from still gaining
that working with children card.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Yeah, that's correct. And you know, the thing which you know,
I often get really surprised by is the lack of
reference checking or the lack of verified reference checking. You know,
it can't be your mate or you know, someone you
worked with three years ago who was in in any
position of authority. You know, we have like a really
strict rule around reference checking around someone who was a
(05:25):
direct supervisor. We will, you know, luckily do once fairly
small place. We were like, you know, double check that
that person actually was in that position. And you know,
we always asked the question, the safeguarding question, you know,
has this person ever been in any disciplinary matters in
relation to performance or in relation to children. And I
(05:46):
had someone say to me yesterday, Oh, but you can't
legally give a bad reference. Well, I think you have
an obligation if you maybe if you don't feel comfortable,
you know, you know, divulging a whole story of something.
But I do think you have an obligation to say
they're problems or you know, there was there was something there.
I think that sort of mentality that you don't want
to give it bad references needs to change.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I agree with you. I think you know, if if
at the end of the day somebody has their pros
and cons in any workplace, or their cons or their concerns,
then that definitely should be passed on.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah. Absolutely, And you know that it goes back to
that you know culture, there was you know, that kind
of behavior wasn't couldn't be tolerated. And I have noticed
in again just from the media or in all of
these really terrible situations, there seem to be some red
flags along the way, you know, even just people saying
(06:43):
things like, you know, it was a bit creepy or that.
I mean, I mean, you've got to be a bit
careful that workplace protection. But you know, I think we
need to be better at saying, hey, something's not right.
I'm going to I feel comfortable to go and speak
to someone in authority and say I don't feel right
about what's happening here.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
I agree, Yeah, I agree with you. Now in terms
of you know that there has been suggestions that maybe
security cameras should be installed across the board, you know,
in childcare centers. Is that something that you think should
be happening or you know, do you think like families
would want that?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Well, do you know what I think?
Speaker 1 (07:22):
You know?
Speaker 2 (07:23):
On the face of it when you first hear our
CCTV is the solution, We're just going to film everyone.
But it's way way more complicated than that. You know,
you think about this as like change rooms. Are we
having CCTV and change rooms you know with children are
having suppy changed or being bathed and that's being filmed.
Who can access that? You know, what is a complaint?
(07:44):
If they're thinking a parent as a complaint. We can
look at the CCTV. Is that like I can't find
my lunch box or you know, I think that that
is a bit of a knee jerk reaction that has
some real issues with the actual application.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Of that welltibly, somebody would have to be monitoring it
as well, right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, I don't think that that's where the investment should be.
The investment needs to be in the workforce. That needs
to be in making sure that you know, service providers
have not only have like the framework in place to
safeguard children, but actually apply it that you know, that's
(08:27):
the thing we have. We have such an issue with
retention of educators now as it is, and it's you know,
there's a big strain on the workforce, which is why
you know, people are using agency staff or skipping reference
checks or yeah they need a body on, they need
a body there doing the work, and so you know,
then you know, it goes into those very complicated issues
(08:49):
of how do we recruit passionate, dedicated educators into the sector.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yeah, you're spot on, and and you know, making sure
that you don't just put somebody in a job because
they are a body. You've got to make sure you're
getting the right people. But that can be difficult, you know,
when people want to get paid adequately and you know,
all that kind of stuff. So it's a really broad
discussion before I let you go, Sarah, like, what sort
(09:17):
of been the reaction you know, from the people that
you work with, from families that you work with as well,
following on from this news out of Victoria. I know,
like I know, even for me, like it just sort
of it is just shocking to hear.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah, absolutely, you know you sort of have that full
body reaction to think that that's just horrendous, like you
know how those you know, those families are feeling and
the unknown that you know wasn't my child what you know,
you can't there's nobody here could say that that you know,
find any sort of thing to make that go away.
(09:56):
You know, it's pretty terrible. But then you also get
a bit a bit on the bandwagon of like this
just shouldn't be happening. Where's your processes? What are you doing?
You know, where are those other staff you know, where
were they?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
That's exactly what I was asking myself, Sarah, like, as
somebody who you know has has been a director of
childcare centers for quite some time, Like, you know, what
were you thinking to yourself? You must have thought where
are the other staff members?
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, so one of one of the things I was
thinking about that, Like when I think of our services,
they're very open plan in the NT you know, we
have that to the indoor outdoor environment. You know, even
like our change rooms has like large windows with like
a privacy, you know, so you can see the adults
can't see the child, Whereas I think in other jurisdictions,
(10:48):
you know, they're all converted houses, they're not necessarily the
big open plan that we have here. So I guess
that does lead to some level, you know, of less
people being in the space or less eyes. I guess, Yeah,
that was one thing I was trying to think you
(11:08):
know what, how could that? How could you even do it?
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yeah, just it just blows your mind. And you know,
now like all those parents of the little children, and
you know everybody else that like works in the sector,
just thinking, goodness me. You know, now you've got a
situation where all these parents are receiving text messages that
their children need to go and get checked for, you know,
(11:34):
for for STIs. It is just mind blowing.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, And I can't imagine that needs feeling,
you know, the pitted your stomach, you know what's happened.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah, Sarah, I really appreciate your time this morning and
talking us through, you know as well some of those
different things that you know that they're looking at doing
nationally and whether it actually will make a difference. So
I really appreciate your time. It's good to speak to
you this morning. Ye, thank you, thank you, Thanks so much.
Now a news which absolutely horrified the nation. We know
that Joshua Dale Brown was charged with more than seventy
offenses relating to allegations involving eight alleged victims at a
childcare center in Melbourne's southeast. Now, he was not known
to police and did have a valid working with Children card,
(00:23):
which has since been canceled. Yesterday, detectives investigating him charged
a second man, Michael Simon Wilson, in relation to child abuse,
material and sex offenses. Now, the situation, as I said,
has horrified people around the nation, particularly in pearents with
(00:43):
young kids in childcare and those that work in childcare centers.
We know there are so many incredible childcare workers. Now
the federal government is now looking at reforms that would
standardize working with children checks across the country. Joining me
on the line is the Territory Childcare Group director Sarah Lloyd.
(01:04):
Good morning, Sarah, good morning.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I was actually quite pleased when you added there that
not only our family is devastated, but so is the sector.
You know, we're equally devastated that this has happened.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I bet you guys are, because you know, like for me,
my kids are older now, but like the childcare workers
at the center that my kids went to literally help
me raise my kids. They did an incredibly phenomenal job,
and you know the absolute majority of childcare workers do.
(01:39):
But then you've got a grub like this that works
in a center and has done what he's done, and
it must make you, guys feel really upset and angry.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah, absolutely it does. And we're in a very regulated environment.
You know, we do have a lot of legislation and protections,
but it's a really around the application of you know,
of how we're applying that. And I do when I
definitely have some opinions on the measures that the government's
looking at putting in in the you know of fast tracking.
(02:12):
Some are good, some I don't think are the answer.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Yeah, so talk us through exactly what they're sort of
from your understanding what they're proposing, because I know the
federal government flag that these reforms would standardize the working
with children checks. You know, what, what is your understanding
of what they're looking at changing across Australia.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, Well, they're interesting part with the working with children checks,
Like every jurisdiction's got its own version of that. I mean,
I think what the part that people don't understand with
that is they're unless you're criminally convicted of an offense
against children, nothing's going to be flagged. So it's a
little bit of a teethless tiger. I think, you know,
it's good. You know, obviously we need to have them,
(02:53):
but it's not the sole answer because you know, it
sounds like, you know, in this particular case we've just had,
he hadn't been convicted of anything criminal, so it wouldn't
have come up on a working the children's check anyway.
So I definitely leap onto the bandwagon of screening. There's
(03:13):
a few you know, there's quite a few things that
can be done. One is, you know, in the first instance,
have an environment that is not attractive to people with
ill intentions. You know, if you you know that that's
the workplace culture, you know, coming straight in that that
that sort of behavior or any like slight indication that
(03:35):
there was something wrong, you take action. You know that
that's one, you know, one of the foremost parts of it.
Another thing I do think needs to be added in
this case is from what I've seen in the media,
it looks like he was an agency staff. There there's
a means he wasn't directly employed by the center. But
but you know, if they're short of staff or or
(03:57):
comes in. So in the end, we don't have a
lot of that. I know in other jurisdictions, in some
centers that you know, primarily staffed for agency stuff with
most most services years, would be a very high percentage
of direct employees see the center. That is a different
That is a point of difference that needs to be
(04:21):
factored in in spafeguarding.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
I mean from your perspective, you know, some of the
reforms that they're talking about. I think the point you've
made there, like that screening, because as you've rightly pointed out,
this person had a valid working with children card. So
changing you know, the working with children cards and the
way in which that rolls out, Like, I don't know
whether that's going to make a difference, because if someone
(04:45):
doesn't have a criminal record, then unless you're you know,
unless you're screening them and going all right, I don't
feel as though this person's right for the job or
right to even be an agency worker. There's really nothing
that would have stopped this guy potentially from still gaining
that working with children card.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Yeah, that's correct. And you know, the thing which you know,
I often get really surprised by is the lack of
reference checking or the lack of verified reference checking. You know,
it can't be your mate or you know, someone you
worked with three years ago who was in in any
position of authority. You know, we have like a really
strict rule around reference checking around someone who was a
(05:25):
direct supervisor. We will, you know, luckily do once fairly
small place. We were like, you know, double check that
that person actually was in that position. And you know,
we always asked the question, the safeguarding question, you know,
has this person ever been in any disciplinary matters in
relation to performance or in relation to children. And I
(05:46):
had someone say to me yesterday, Oh, but you can't
legally give a bad reference. Well, I think you have
an obligation if you maybe if you don't feel comfortable,
you know, you know, divulging a whole story of something.
But I do think you have an obligation to say
they're problems or you know, there was there was something there.
I think that sort of mentality that you don't want
to give it bad references needs to change.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I agree with you. I think you know, if if
at the end of the day somebody has their pros
and cons in any workplace, or their cons or their concerns,
then that definitely should be passed on.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah. Absolutely, And you know that it goes back to
that you know culture, there was you know, that kind
of behavior wasn't couldn't be tolerated. And I have noticed
in again just from the media or in all of
these really terrible situations, there seem to be some red
flags along the way, you know, even just people saying
(06:43):
things like, you know, it was a bit creepy or that.
I mean, I mean, you've got to be a bit
careful that workplace protection. But you know, I think we
need to be better at saying, hey, something's not right.
I'm going to I feel comfortable to go and speak
to someone in authority and say I don't feel right
about what's happening here.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
I agree, Yeah, I agree with you. Now in terms
of you know that there has been suggestions that maybe
security cameras should be installed across the board, you know,
in childcare centers. Is that something that you think should
be happening or you know, do you think like families
would want that?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Well, do you know what I think?
Speaker 1 (07:22):
You know?
Speaker 2 (07:23):
On the face of it when you first hear our
CCTV is the solution, We're just going to film everyone.
But it's way way more complicated than that. You know,
you think about this as like change rooms. Are we
having CCTV and change rooms you know with children are
having suppy changed or being bathed and that's being filmed.
Who can access that? You know, what is a complaint?
(07:44):
If they're thinking a parent as a complaint. We can
look at the CCTV. Is that like I can't find
my lunch box or you know, I think that that
is a bit of a knee jerk reaction that has
some real issues with the actual application.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Of that welltibly, somebody would have to be monitoring it
as well, right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, I don't think that that's where the investment should be.
The investment needs to be in the workforce. That needs
to be in making sure that you know, service providers
have not only have like the framework in place to
safeguard children, but actually apply it that you know, that's
(08:27):
the thing we have. We have such an issue with
retention of educators now as it is, and it's you know,
there's a big strain on the workforce, which is why
you know, people are using agency staff or skipping reference
checks or yeah they need a body on, they need
a body there doing the work, and so you know,
then you know, it goes into those very complicated issues
(08:49):
of how do we recruit passionate, dedicated educators into the sector.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yeah, you're spot on, and and you know, making sure
that you don't just put somebody in a job because
they are a body. You've got to make sure you're
getting the right people. But that can be difficult, you know,
when people want to get paid adequately and you know,
all that kind of stuff. So it's a really broad
discussion before I let you go, Sarah, like, what sort
(09:17):
of been the reaction you know, from the people that
you work with, from families that you work with as well,
following on from this news out of Victoria. I know,
like I know, even for me, like it just sort
of it is just shocking to hear.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah, absolutely, you know you sort of have that full
body reaction to think that that's just horrendous, like you
know how those you know, those families are feeling and
the unknown that you know wasn't my child what you know,
you can't there's nobody here could say that that you know,
find any sort of thing to make that go away.
(09:56):
You know, it's pretty terrible. But then you also get
a bit a bit on the bandwagon of like this
just shouldn't be happening. Where's your processes? What are you doing?
You know, where are those other staff you know, where
were they?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
That's exactly what I was asking myself, Sarah, like, as
somebody who you know has has been a director of
childcare centers for quite some time, Like, you know, what
were you thinking to yourself? You must have thought where
are the other staff members?
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, so one of one of the things I was
thinking about that, Like when I think of our services,
they're very open plan in the NT you know, we
have that to the indoor outdoor environment. You know, even
like our change rooms has like large windows with like
a privacy, you know, so you can see the adults
can't see the child, Whereas I think in other jurisdictions,
(10:48):
you know, they're all converted houses, they're not necessarily the
big open plan that we have here. So I guess
that does lead to some level, you know, of less
people being in the space or less eyes. I guess, Yeah,
that was one thing I was trying to think you
(11:08):
know what, how could that? How could you even do it?
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yeah, just it just blows your mind. And you know,
now like all those parents of the little children, and
you know everybody else that like works in the sector,
just thinking, goodness me. You know, now you've got a
situation where all these parents are receiving text messages that
their children need to go and get checked for, you know,
(11:34):
for for STIs. It is just mind blowing.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, And I can't imagine that needs feeling,
you know, the pitted your stomach, you know what's happened.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah, Sarah, I really appreciate your time this morning and
talking us through, you know as well some of those
different things that you know that they're looking at doing
nationally and whether it actually will make a difference. So
I really appreciate your time. It's good to speak to
you this morning. Ye, thank you, thank you, Thanks so much.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.