July 29, 2026 • 34 mins
There is a version of leadership that looks effortless from the outside. The one where the leader always has the answers, always holds the vision, always appears composed. And then there is the version that happens in private, at 5:00 AM, when your mind is rehearsing every possible failure and no one can see it.
What surprises most people is how often those two versions belong to the same person.
In part two of my conversation with Christian O'Connell, breakfast radio host heard by hundreds of thousands of Australians every morning, we get into the parts of leadership nobody talks about publicly. Christian opens up about the loneliness of leading a team, the night he finally put his thoughts on a whiteboard and told his people the truth about how he'd been feeling, and why he believes his next book will be about leadership because nobody warned him how hard it would be.
If you have ever found yourself carrying something heavy at work and deciding the most responsible thing to do as a leader is keep it to yourself, this conversation will make you question whether that instinct is actually protecting your team or just protecting you.
Christian and I discuss:
- Why confidence is the wrong thing to aim for before you speak in public
- What happened when Christian finally stopped pretending everything was fine with his team
- The one thing that does more for a team than any solution or action plan
- Why 5am is the worst possible time to trust your own thoughts
- The David Letterman line that changed how Christian thinks about taking risks
- Why Christian considers himself an accidental leader, and what he's doing about it
Key quotes
"Confidence is something that catches up. Momentum is more important."
"It's a beautiful thing, leadership. If you get it right, it's a path of aliveness and transformation. If you get it wrong, it's the opposite."
Connect with Christian O'Connell on Instagram, X (Twitter), LinkedIn and his website. Tune in to The Christian O’Connell Show and check out his latest book Unscript: The Radical Act of Being Yourself.
My latest book The Energy Game is out now. You can order a copy here: https://amzn.to/48ID29M
Connect with me on the socials: Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/amanthaimber)
Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/amanthai)
If you are looking for more tips to improve the way you work and live, I write a weekly newsletter wh
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I didn't get into ready to become a leader. Then
(00:01):
very quickly I realized, wait, I'm in charge now of people.
But the really big thing for me was like I
didn't realize how lonely it was.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
That was Christian O'Connell, the breakfast radio host hundreds of
thousands of Australians wake up to every morning, And honestly
I have felt that loneliness too, leading inventium the nights
when everyone's looking to you for the answer and you
don't actually have one. Christian didn't exactly walk into leadership
(00:31):
the way he walked into radio. He fell into managing
people almost by accident, and his new book Unscript has
forced him to sit with that loneliness and the vulnerability
of that in a way that he's never spoken about
publicly before. This is part two of my conversation with Christian,
and if you haven't listened to part one yet, where
(00:52):
Christian shares how he never runs dry on things to
say and how to tell better stories, you will find
that link to in the show notes today. In part two,
we go even deeper into leadership. Christian walks me through
the night. He finally told his team the truth about
how he was really doing whiteboard notes and all. Christian
(01:14):
and I also swap questions and answers from the brilliant
list of thought provoking questions in his new book, and
some of those stories are ones that we've never shed
publicly before. If you've ever carried something heavy at work
and pretended you were fine, then I reckon you will
really love this conversation.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals,
and strategies for optimizing your date. I'm your host, doctor
Amantha Imber.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
For the second half, I want to try something different
and it's not something I've done actually on an interview before,
but Christian and I have printed out in Unscript you
have got a lot of questions that you call your
unfolder questions, and they're at the end of each chapter.
And I found them really thought provoking. And what I
did is I captured a few of them, and I
(02:16):
thought I would ask you some of them, and you
are welcome to ask me some of them. And you know, look,
also if there are others. I imagine you have not
memorized every single unscript question in the book, but if
you have, you are welcome to take other ones and
there's one rule though, you're not allowed to share a
story that's.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
In the book. Yeah, I like that rule. Good, beautiful, all.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Right, So I'll ask you a question first.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Okay, I've towd you like them because the reason why
I called them on fold is I think a lot
of really how people do change and how we grow
is about unfolding. That's quite mean. I read all these
self help books. They are increasingly quite tyrannical.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
You know.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
They're like, you've got to get up at midnight, you've.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Got to have an hour's an hour meditating, then as
the ice bath, then as a journal, maybe a gratituduck
and a gratitude journal, and it's just like it's joyless.
And so I and I've read all of them, I've
done these courses, and I don't change enough. Then I
beat myself up more. And so I've found that actually,
when I have changed in life, it's more of a
gentle it's an unfolding. And that's not seeing yourself as
(03:21):
something that needs to change. It's more I think about
accepting who you are and then things kind of unfold
and change. And so I think sometimes just really compassionate,
gentle contemplation and asking ourselves beautiful questions. Sometimes just that
is the gift. It isn't about that I'm getting up
at midnight and I'm going to go and swim a
(03:43):
nice cold river and that's how I'm going to have
a great life. It's like, yeah, you can do that.
See like a lot of hard work. And so that's
why I wanted the book to feel like a conversation,
less like a book, more like a conversation between me
and you, and so great questions are essential in a conversation.
So I really wanted it to be well, I said
what I want to say? What's that for you? And
(04:06):
so I'm glad you like them. I spent a lot
of time really thinking about what those questions are, and
I really hope they do unfold maybe some new way
of seeing things. And I think that's a kind of
way to try and get change rather than trying to change.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I love that well, they definitely. I did sit with
those for a little bit when I finished each chapter
and just noticed what emerged. And I really like that process. Okay,
what don't I start in the middle of this list? Okay,
what are you feeling right now that you're not letting
(04:42):
yourself fully feel Christian O'Connell.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
Oh, this is a really big thing for me at
the moment.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
I am really struggling to talk about this book on
my own radio show. I feel really awkward. I don't
want to turn into you know you go online now
and everyone's trying to sell you you know this, that
and the other and by this. I don't want to
become one of them, and so I'm really My team
is saying, why aren't you talking about your book? It's
(05:09):
really good, and I'm like, I don't know what it is.
I'm getting really jammed up about It's this, Sally. I'm
starting to get into a cold sweat even just the
thinking about it. I'm finding it. I've written a book
called Unscript. There's a script that I'm saying, like, who
do you? I think it's a bit of who do
you think you are? And I don't it done badly?
Is me going on the radio to people? Would you
(05:29):
like to speak as well as me?
Speaker 4 (05:31):
Me and Mortal? You probably just stare into the speakers.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
How does this wizard of words talk well?
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Me and Mortal?
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Buy my book for twenty nine dollars that people are
going to be looking at the radio. What the hell
has Where's Christian gone? Who is this Egypt? So that's
where it is. I'm finding it really hard. And so
you said, with that lovely message of the weekend, it's
started to dissolve that a bit like this book is beautiful.
It's you've really You've got something really special here. And
so that really helped actually actually going. And I think
(06:01):
a lot of those scripts we have, they all stem
back to something happen in childhood, and there's a part
of you gets frozen in that time, in place and story.
And so I says, I'm speaking to you now I'm realizing,
Oh yeah, I do remember my mom and dad arguing
once of a parent's evening. One of the teacher said,
Christian will never go to college or university, and it's
cruel to actually say you could possibly do that. My
(06:22):
parents were arguing about this. I took that at a
very young age. Is there's something wrong with You're thick.
So now suddenly when you have a book, there's part
of you stare that kid going, so you think you
can now write a book. And so that's why I'm struggling.
But I'm putting everything into it. But there's still that
old story. And I think a lot of times in
life we're at the crossroads between the old story and
(06:44):
the news story, and there's a bit of a bump
up between them. I guess the old story wants to
keeps me safe, you know, and also aware. I am
an Australia where tool poppy syndrome. I don't want anyone thinking,
oh my god. You know, listen mate, you're playing nickelback
for a living right now. You've got a book with
some teachings. Just tell us the time and a funny
(07:05):
story and play Mondo rock and move on.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
And so.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Now isn't talking to you? If I if I spoke
like that about it, there's more vulnerability. So that I
think is I think I'm thinking, I'm thinking I'm making it.
I've got to have the perfect kind of sales pitch.
And it's like I don't. But that has been My
wife was like, you went, how long have you been
struggling with us?
Speaker 4 (07:25):
Went? Two or three weeks?
Speaker 1 (07:26):
When you haven't said anything the books about vulnerable. I said, yeah,
but vulnerabil it is a constant thing. You don't master
vulnerability and put your feet up and go I've now
I've never worked out I've done this level in life.
It's like whenever you get somewhere in life, you know
there's another hundred levels you have to do. How many
times you think, oh, you're trying to work out why
I why am I struggling with this, and go, oh,
(07:46):
we're not going out of childhood, are we?
Speaker 4 (07:48):
Spiller?
Speaker 1 (07:49):
It's always back in chard. All past lead back to childhood,
don't you know? Something happened and you believe the story
and then you took it as being true. And so
for me, that's really alive right now. And so yeah,
if you think that I'm writing this book thinking I'm
a master of this stuff, hopefully I'm struggling to even
talk about a book called unscript And this is how
(08:09):
it is to be human. You know, you're not constantly
sort of marching through life confidently. And if anyone does
tell you that they're lying, yeah, I think you're always
there's always some inner turmoil often or like a war
with yourself. And so actually, I'm now going to use
this conversation to actually talk about the book in a
(08:30):
more honest way and actually just say I've really written
this book. I really hope you could help people I
love this book, but I don't want to turn it
to one of those people as you see on social media.
I hope it don't come across like that, even though
it's a different way, isn't it. Rather, I've written this book,
it's called unscript and I've shared all my wonderful loans.
I'm very good at talking and you're not. That's why
you listen to me every morning.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
I find that answer so refreshing, because I mean, you
are you, So it's almost impossible to be about how
am I seeing in the world right, but we have
blind spots. But also I think you're I would say
a household name in Australia where where you're on the
radio every single day and people are waking up to you.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
But what does that mean?
Speaker 1 (09:13):
That doesn't mean anything, doesn't I think what that means.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
I think what people overlay over that is they think, well, Christian,
he's comfortable talking on air for three hours every day,
and he must just be this confident person that doesn't
have these thoughts in the back of his head, these doubts,
these vulnerabilities, and so you know, I think that's why
it's so refreshing, kind of going oh wow, even he
(09:37):
things like that, even if he doubts himself.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
You know, you know, because I get it, because actually
to do something like I do talk every day, there
is any script. People think that must take a superhuman
amount of confidence. I don't have that. I'm actually not confident.
At six am, I'm tired, to be really honest, something
might have happened personally the night before. That's still in me.
And so I think people think that get in their
(10:00):
head that you need a lot of confidence to be
a good speaker.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
You don't.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Confidence is something catches up. Momentum is more important. Mindset
is way more important than confidence. People need to separate
content from confidence, and so we get too much into that.
I don't feel confident. You don't need to do that.
Most of the problems about speaking are overthinking it, and
in fact my job is to underthink and just start speaking.
This start the show, you know, just start talking. Confidence
(10:27):
sometimes turns up about three minutes into my first break,
Oh they are, and then disappears again about half an
hour later.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
They go, are you're gone again? Anyway? I can't. I
can't wait for you to turn up.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Otherwise it'd be I'd be on air like once a
week for two minutes, so I'm on air five days
a week. So no, it's it's And also, I think
that the thing that surprised me about the book I
wrote five years ago, when I talked about having panic attacks,
that's still part of my life. It's always going to
be bubbling around. Sometimes they're a bit more bubbling, a
bit bigger. Other times there's periods where it's not there.
I can still be doing a radio show and have
(10:58):
a panic attack. And I hope that really how much
people knowing that, because I'm sure if you've ever heard
a radio show or something like me doing a rain
of show, and I think I didn't realize how reassuring
and comforting people found out. I dreaded, dreaded talking about
the panic attacks in the last book. I remember even
two days before the book came out, there was an
article on a newspaper and it was anxiety, silence of detail.
(11:20):
I remember throwing that newspaper across the floor and my
wife said, you know, I did warn you this is
going to be hard. And then I said, is it
too late to recall the books? When I think you
can go drive around the straight? I also don't think
that's the point. I think there's some part of me
that wants to share this because it might help somebody,
and it did help a lot of people, and so yeah,
I think it's really shown for me to know that
(11:42):
you can still have real fear. I have real panic attacks.
I was during the radio show, but I don't leave
the studio. I find ways of being with that in
a kind of way than I did years ago, And
so I think that's equally is important as saying, hey,
I've got some stuff that can help you find better stories,
tell better stories, and also a few other things about
(12:02):
speaking and the energetics of speaking that could really help you.
I think it's far more relatable to know, Oh no, no,
it's still really hard for me. I guess, even saying
that I'm struggling to even promote the book You Talk
for a Living. No, no, no, look, there's it's it's
like I said, in certain situations, something kicks in. And
so I hope that actually it helps people knowing that
(12:24):
it's still really tricky for me. Sometimes it's still really
tricky sometimes for me out with my family. You know,
you'll find it surprising to know I was incredibly nervous
during today's show about doing this interview, because it was like, Oh,
I hope I can do a good job. I hope
I don't screw it up because this is a different
context of me from being in that radio studio.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
That shocks me. And it also revised me how my
eahm emailed you to give you instructions on how to
get to the arm.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Building that I've been in working every morning and tell
me to get here early. Will I'm getting it at
five am?
Speaker 4 (12:57):
Where are you? Yes?
Speaker 1 (13:04):
There was like, yeah, I work in that building. We've
been there for eight years. I'll be there before you got.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
I think I'll find it.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Okay, Christian, your choice is to what we do next.
I can ask you another question from the unfolded questions.
You can ask me one.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
Well, I have to ask you one.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Okay. So that's my version of what's alive right now? Me?
Where do you think there's a script operating for you?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Gosh, like I feel like I have so many scripts operating. Well, Look,
we're launching books within the same month. Yours I think
comes out at the end of July July twenty eight,
I want to say, And I've got one coming out
on July seven, and so I can absolutely relate to
all of this, and I'm very aware of the tricks
my mind is playing on itself. Like a couple of
(13:46):
weeks ago, I was just going through some really intense
stuff with my daughter and helping support her through some
stuff she's going through at school, and it's all consuming,
and I'm lying in bed in the morning at five am,
and I'm worrying about her. And then my mind decides, Okay,
(14:07):
let's worry about something that is far less inconsequential to
distract you from what is obviously, you know, quite heartbreaking,
you know, the struggles that my daughter was going through.
And so I decided that I would worry about the
two book launches that I've put on, so unlike any
of my other books, I've decided I'm going to do
(14:28):
a Melbourne book launch and I'm going to do a
Sydney book launch. And when I made that decision, I
think I just imagined that a lot of people kind
of like my whack, and then I know a lot
of people, and that that'll be easy to fill a
room in Melbourne and Sydney. And it was literally before
I think it was, you know, the day or two
before I was about to just start promoting it to
(14:49):
the socials and the newsletter list to invite people along.
And I decided at that moment, at five am, I thought,
no one's going to come. You're going to be talking
to an empty room. Why on earth did you think
that like happy audacity to think that your work has
actually impacted other people and that they are going to
give up a week night, a school night, to come
(15:12):
along to a bookshop or in Melbourne the malt House
and pay money to hear you speak about your book.
You are an idiot. It is going to fail. No
one is going to come. And then I think my
husband was a way traveling and I called him and
I said, I know we've got stuff going on with
Frankie right now, but I'm also really stressed about my Bookqunch.
(15:33):
And I know that's really stupid because it doesn't matter
in the scheme of things. And the story that I
tell myself all the time is that you have to
be successful. You must be successful, you must achieve, achieve, achieve,
and if you don't fill up both of those rooms
in Melbourne and Sydney, you are objectively a failure. And
no one likes you or your work.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
Yeah, that's a lot.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
And first of all, you know, as a parent, when
you've got stuff going on, because I've got two daughters
and this has been a lot, you know, they do.
They go through some tough time, really really tough time,
and it is all encompassing, and it's worse at five am.
I didn't know it is, isn't it. You can't trust
your own thoughts. That's what I now just have to
just I've written down to be some amazing paper by
(16:15):
my bed, don't trust your thoughts at five am. Amount
of times I've started to resign for my radio show,
my marriage, give my kids up for adoption zone and
lousy deadbeat dad. And so I just now I literally
have written down do not trust any thoughts at five am, seriously,
because it's like and also I think those thoughts you
(16:36):
wake up. And also when you are a parent and
your kids are going through a tough time, it's front
and center.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
It's everywhere.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
There's nothing that demands more vulnerability in life than being
a parent.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
It just isn't.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
And so yeah, my heart goes out for you and
Frankie going through that. I know what that's like. I
hope she's okay, and it's so much and it is
probably heartbreaking, and so what happens though, I know when
that's been me, and that has been this year for
my wife and I. It has a magnetic quality, doesn't it?
And Chuck some other even something you were looking forward to,
(17:07):
I'm going, what if no one buys the book and
all you see are copies of and you know, being
reduced to like fifty cents, you know, and you can
really you know, your wife will probably leave you, the
kids won't want to speak to you again. You're probably
fired from the radio, and you'll probably be homeless, and
you'll probably have to live under a bridge. Something is
(17:28):
like top five and it's time to go to work.
And well that was a really nice half an out
of just kicking the crap out of myself. None of
it's helpful, But why do we all do that? It
is the magnetic aren't they? They have a gravitational field?
And why is about lying down? It really gets ahold
of you. I have to literally sometimes just get out
of bed and even just go for a short walk
(17:50):
around the bedroom or go and do something to start moving,
get your energy moving, and then you can start to
almost unstick from those thoughts and yeah, and all you
are is failure, that's all it is. There's no chance
of success, there's no chance, there's no slight chance. And
also I used to have this one. I used to
go perform and do stand up at the world's biggest
(18:12):
comedy festival, edmrad Festival. There are like three thousand shows.
It's huge, millions of people there. She you're up against
the best comedians, the one you're selling tickets. And some nights,
you know, I'm performing in a room of two hundred people.
There would be twenty or thirty people on a Sunday night,
and I would almost like, oh, this is going to
be horrendous. Some of my favorite shows are those twenty
(18:34):
or thirty because you leant into the twenty or thirty
and you used to go, actually, this is what's happening,
talk about your ego. I remember once speaking to them
saying that I wasn't sure what was going to come
on stage because there's only a twenty or thirty of them.
I could hear them already laughing, and then it took
me twenty minutes. I've pretended not to do show that
didn't have enough confidence a sort they start to laugh harder,
(18:56):
and I just thought, I'm just going to play with
the fact there is only twenty thirty people here, and
plus them they've actually selected to come and see me,
there are hundreds of bit more stablished comedians they could
have turned from. And then I played with Sometimes it's
playing with the fear and you can kind of almost Yeah,
(19:16):
of course you can be fined about not doing that. Yeah,
I mean, I've got a book launch. I've never done
one before. I've always avoided doing them because I was
too worried that no one would turn up, you know,
only be confronted with your own the factors you don't
actually matter that much, and you're like, oh, I don't
want to know that. I want to be deluded. And
so I've done one in Melbourne. I don't think I'm
going to do one in Sydney. And so I get.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
Why that's a worry, a real worry.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, but it's kind of like, how likely is that
your work matters to you? And it does matter to people?
It does, And again it's like putting that lens back
on you. If there's eight people there, then lucky those
eight people, they're going to get your magic because your
book I guarantee you has got or magic in it.
(20:01):
There's no way it wouldn't. It's got you in it.
And so a sort of eight people and tell her
about your book and what's in your heart. That's a
great night for them. It is so what there's not
three hundred and fifty, there's three hundred fifty empty seats.
Fuck it, you still got to do this for a living.
People are having a worse time than you right now.
There are and so it's kind of like that actually
(20:22):
isn't going to be the worst David, Like, even if
there's only twenty people there. Okay, yes, it's going to
suck for a bit, but it won't be the end
of you. I guarantee, on your death web when you
play aback your highlight reel, that is not going to
be there. Or it might be you laughing with some
friends six months later ago. I never told you how
many people came to Sydney. Wait what you said was
back all go and see all go and see you
(20:45):
in Sydney. Okay, I'm going to promote it on the
show now.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Okay, Sydney's sold out.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
Now, well there you go.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Melbourne's not you.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
Can promote right, I promote Melbourne.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Thank you. Question coming up, we get into what happens
when a leader finally names the thing that everybody is
saying out loud, and Christian shares the idea behind the
book he's already started writing. Next, which is all about
leadership and why no one warns you it's this lonely.
(21:14):
If you're looking for more tips to improve the way
you work can live. I write a short weekly newsletter
that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally.
You can sign up for that at Amantha dot com.
That's Amantha dot com. Okay, next question, where in your
(21:37):
life could you turn up the connection dial by ten percent?
Speaker 1 (21:41):
I tell you what it could be. It's still with
my team. I have this script actually about my team
that I need to bear a superhuman leader to them,
and I show no weakness and I don't need the help,
and I don't mean the help in an aggressive way.
I could do this by myself. It's not that it's
just not showing them that I'm overwhelmed or I had
a tough day yesterday, one of our daughters struggling. I'm here,
(22:04):
I'd find that hard to say that to the team,
and so what happens is they probably know there's something
going on in there, and so it's this kind of
this strange thing between you where they know I know,
but one of us doesn't want to bridge that gap.
And so as much as this is a book about connection,
so about disconnection. So literally before us doing this, I
just had a big chat for an hour with the team.
(22:26):
I just said how I found the last ten weeks.
It's found it really hard. I don't think we're running
the show in the right way. It's nothing to do
with actually what we're talking about the show. It's just
about the structure of the meetings. And I could see
that the more I talked about the effect that it
had on me, and I wish i'd spoken up about
it sooner. All pens go down, no pads go down,
(22:47):
and we had such a better sharing and connection. I
didn't sleep very well last night. I was really worried
about and I did a thing that I never do.
I'd put some notes on a whiteboard. To me, that
scene is like joyless, you know, almost like CEO of management,
like serious, And even as I walked in, I was
really nerves on them coming in the room because I
(23:09):
think I probably just have this idea of me that
I hear. I'm this crazy sort of you know, off
the cuff guy, missus spontaneous. He's made notes oh awkwards.
And so I locked the door and I could hit
the other side, and they thought I was planning, and
I went no, no, because I was still making sure they
could read my spelling, which is kind of messy on
the white board with new names of the meetings that
(23:31):
we all have, because I think I spent a lot
time coming up with the names of things. I think
the naming of framing matters. And so I was really
scared because they know now he's put real thought into this.
He spent wait, he spent his whole weekend coming up
with names for the meetings. You can tell his daughters
that left home. He's got too much time. Is he
having a breakdown or another breakdown? And so it really
(23:53):
was I really had to take that risk and dialuct
the connection, and yeah, because I found it really hard.
That was quite a lot to do that. I wrote
it up before the show today and then scrubbed out
I'll do it later on this week. And then I
was like you're going to do it today, you won't
feel like it tomorrow. And so yeah, I'm the leader
on my team, and I empower everybody else to be
(24:14):
leaders as well. But I think sometimes being a leaders
really lonely, and you find it really hard to actually
talk about when you're struggling, you know, And I think
if they see I'm weak, they're going to worry about me,
or they're not going to think the same about me.
I must protect them from that. And they're adults, they're
actually okay. If I say I'm quite tired, they're just
(24:35):
going to go, yeah, of course, yeah, let me doing it.
A long time, I didn't get into rated to become
a leader. Then very quickly I realized, wait, I'm in
charge now of people. I didn't get into management, and
then I had to. I think I was a manager
for the first half of my career and now I've
definitely worked a lot with some great coaches on what
(24:57):
leadership is and what it isn't. But they're really thing
for me was like I didn't realize how lonely it was.
I realized there's so much loneliness, overwhelmed, burnout. You're expected
to have all the answers, and you're not expected to
have all the answers. It's constant what do you think
of this?
Speaker 4 (25:12):
What do you think of that? And it's like, you
don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
I'd imagine for you, like you're a doctor, you're psychologist,
and as a brilliant stage is that takes so much
hard work to get that. I imagine sometimes that must
feel quite quite lonely as well.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
It feels really lonely. And I think during the worst
moments and the worst times of leading Inventium have definitely
been the loneliest and the most disconnected. And I feel
like it's taken me a long time to realize that
I don't actually have to have all the answers. Yeah,
I had one on ones with all my team, like
(25:48):
have one on ones with them every week, but once
a quarter we sit down, we do a self reflection
and I give them questions to think about, and we
talk about them and their experience and you know, looking forward,
looking backwards and what came up. And what I'm really
aware of at the moment in the business is that
there's a lot of pressure on all of us because
there's you know, we're in a really fortunate position where
(26:10):
there's heaps of demand for what we're doing, and we're
trying to manage that demand, and it's just meaning that
we're all working quite hard. And I'm hearing this from
all my team members, and I shared with them why
I find it so hard, because when me, as the
head of the business, is deciding what do I do
(26:30):
about this pressure? Whatever I decide, there's probably going to
be a three month lag to that having an impact.
Like do we decide to hire someone, Okay, well, that
takes time and it's probably three months before they're in
the business, and then we're training them up and that's
another few yeah, yeah, Or you know, could I relieve
pressure through maybe saying no to more clients that want
(26:52):
to work with us or just pushing them back and
risking losing them, which is you know, can be a
difficult decision as a business owner of course, And again though,
that's not going to relieve pressure instantly because we've got
a very very significant pipeline of work. And normally I
would just go, yeah, I hear you, and there's pressure,
(27:14):
and you let me know what I can do to
support you. But then I also found, okay, through sharing
just how am I thinking about this and this is
stressing me out, and I don't know what the solution is,
which I wouldn't normally share because I feel like as
a leader, they wouldn't say fair.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Of hands, honestly up whole division. Don't we resell them
into a vision because we think that's what a leader
should do. And it's taking in way too long, too
much burnout, I would says characterize a lot of my
leadership to realize they don't need that. What they need
is for you to see the human there and that's
beyond status. And I think actually what happens is is
(27:52):
more energizing. When you do do that collectively, the room
goes and oh and they I think they connect more
with you. And sometimes, what is it by just naming
the white elephant in the room, you don't even need
to fixate on it.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Like what are we going to do?
Speaker 1 (28:11):
The fact that you just finally say it. It's that
that unfolding us work somehow things to shift. They've not
done anything, but you've done. What's the hardest thing is
speaking the thing into existence.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
I find that that moment of exhale where you literally
see people exhale when you name the thing and you say,
I don't have the answers right now. I'm struggling with
this as well. And counterintuitively, you go, they're going to
hate that, They're going to get stressed. I'm putting my
stress onto them and my not knowing onto them. But
actually it has the opposite effect. Oh, she's been real
(28:46):
with us.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
I think that there's a block in the room. It's
kind of like the river. There's something that's blocking the
flow of the river of between you all, and sometimes
is pointing it and naming it because they know it's there,
but you're the one, as the lead that's not talking
about it. And when you do point it out, I
do know about that rock, by the way, and actually
I think the rock is me and how I'm thinking
about this problem. Then they go ah, and it's almost
(29:09):
like you. Then the rock moves or somehow you go
around it, and you're back into this torrent, this flow
of energy between you on Then actually ideas start coming,
but most importantly, you get reconnected again on a human level,
and that always is energizing, and it isn't about the fixing.
I think it's more about the connecting than everything else.
(29:29):
Kind of like can unfold. It's like you're getting back
into the rich soil. It's like the atmosphere is richer
again for change and creativity and positive solutions. But when
there's constriction news I was saying earlier about walking, talking,
breathing antennas. When there's constriction in you, that's what's creating
(29:49):
a blockage, and it's about fixing it or coming up there.
It's something more simple. Often it's actually just naming it.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
It's a beautiful thing. Leadership.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
It's an incredibly beautiful thing, and if you get it right,
it's a part off of a liveness and transformation. But
if you get it wrong, it's the opposite, and there's
a deadening in there, a lessing of the life force
between all of you. I actually think the next book
I write I've started to write will be about is
about leadership, because I guess I would call myself an
an accident win reluctant leader to begin with. You know,
(30:18):
no one hired me to be a CEO or chief
or anything. I just suddenly, very early in my career.
If I leave everything to my bosses, I'm not in control.
I'm not the author of I'm not taking ownership of
my life and career, and I'm just going to contort
myself and how they think I should speak on the radio.
And I remember watching this clip Jerry Seinfeld was talking
(30:40):
about asking David Letterman whether or not I should do a sitcom,
and you know, Jerry was worried that his career was
going really well as a stand up and suddenly he
could do the sitcom and it could get it could
easily get canceled, and that could hurt his career. And
David's just said to him, if you're going to fail,
do it your way, what a beautiful way, it felt
(31:00):
the right way. Don't fail by committee or consensus, fail
doing it your way. And Jerry is like, I'm going
to do it my way, and you know the rest
is history. And so I think it's a bit of that.
Sometimes I just find I actually think everyone is a leader,
and I don't think it's just about a title or
corner offers. I think it's about something else, that there
are qualities of leadership.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
And it's just taken me a long time. I still think.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Also, it's it's day to day, isn't it. How you
are right now is different from tomorrow, and I think
if you understand that a bit kind to yourself, it's
easy to lead yourself through that. I think it's just
sometimes it's about being aware of like, yeah, I'm quite
tense right now in this room. There is a lot
of responsibility. You shouldn't take that lightly, but it's understandable
(31:45):
how that would feel quite heavy.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Christian, thank you so much for coming back on and
just I love the way that you share and the
vulnerability and the honesty that you bring. It's just the
last hour has been an absolute joy.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Me too, and also a deep thanks for you really
did nudge something in me, you unfolded something in me,
and getting that from you has really ceded what I've
I've used a book, so you're proud. Actually you were
kind enough not at the end of an interview to
go thank you bye bye. You hung around a bit
more and you listened to where I was, and that
(32:20):
meant a lot of the time I didn't know someone
like you, an actual psychologist, a learned person, you know,
and so for you to sort of see actually, some
you can do that, and that's what we need. Sometimes
we need other people actually that say hey, you could
do that. I think my book really, I think there's
some at the end. I think sometimes we're just looking
for a permission slip, and I think you gave me
a permission slip so a couple of years ago.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
And I've loved always, I've changed you, but I really
loved this one. And thanks for being so honest as well,
my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
If there's one thing I'm taking from this conversation, it's
that connection that beats confidence. Every single time Christian didn't
fix anything with his team during that story you told,
he just named what was actually going on, and you
could almost feel the whole room exhale. The next time
(33:08):
you're carrying something at work and pretending you're not, maybe
try naming it out loud, even just to one person.
You might be surprised who exhales with you. Christian's new book,
Unscript is out on the twenty eighth of July, and
if you missed part one, where Christian opens up about
his book launch nerves, you can find that in the
(33:31):
show notes. And if christian story about finally being honest
with his team hit home for you, I recommend going
back and listening to my two part conversation with my
own teammate Ali Sully, Where we pull apart Inventum's the
hardest year back in twenty twenty four, and what it
actually took to lead through it. The links to all
(33:52):
those episodes are in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
If you like today's show, make sure you hit follow
on your podcast app to be alerted when you drop.
How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of
the Warringery people, part of the Coulan nation.
I didn't get into ready to become a leader. Then
(00:01):
very quickly I realized, wait, I'm in charge now of people.
But the really big thing for me was like I
didn't realize how lonely it was.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
That was Christian O'Connell, the breakfast radio host hundreds of
thousands of Australians wake up to every morning, And honestly
I have felt that loneliness too, leading inventium the nights
when everyone's looking to you for the answer and you
don't actually have one. Christian didn't exactly walk into leadership
(00:31):
the way he walked into radio. He fell into managing
people almost by accident, and his new book Unscript has
forced him to sit with that loneliness and the vulnerability
of that in a way that he's never spoken about
publicly before. This is part two of my conversation with Christian,
and if you haven't listened to part one yet, where
(00:52):
Christian shares how he never runs dry on things to
say and how to tell better stories, you will find
that link to in the show notes today. In part two,
we go even deeper into leadership. Christian walks me through
the night. He finally told his team the truth about
how he was really doing whiteboard notes and all. Christian
(01:14):
and I also swap questions and answers from the brilliant
list of thought provoking questions in his new book, and
some of those stories are ones that we've never shed
publicly before. If you've ever carried something heavy at work
and pretended you were fine, then I reckon you will
really love this conversation.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals,
and strategies for optimizing your date. I'm your host, doctor
Amantha Imber.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
For the second half, I want to try something different
and it's not something I've done actually on an interview before,
but Christian and I have printed out in Unscript you
have got a lot of questions that you call your
unfolder questions, and they're at the end of each chapter.
And I found them really thought provoking. And what I
did is I captured a few of them, and I
(02:16):
thought I would ask you some of them, and you
are welcome to ask me some of them. And you know, look,
also if there are others. I imagine you have not
memorized every single unscript question in the book, but if
you have, you are welcome to take other ones and
there's one rule though, you're not allowed to share a
story that's.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
In the book. Yeah, I like that rule. Good, beautiful, all.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Right, So I'll ask you a question first.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Okay, I've towd you like them because the reason why
I called them on fold is I think a lot
of really how people do change and how we grow
is about unfolding. That's quite mean. I read all these
self help books. They are increasingly quite tyrannical.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
You know.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
They're like, you've got to get up at midnight, you've.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Got to have an hour's an hour meditating, then as
the ice bath, then as a journal, maybe a gratituduck
and a gratitude journal, and it's just like it's joyless.
And so I and I've read all of them, I've
done these courses, and I don't change enough. Then I
beat myself up more. And so I've found that actually,
when I have changed in life, it's more of a
gentle it's an unfolding. And that's not seeing yourself as
(03:21):
something that needs to change. It's more I think about
accepting who you are and then things kind of unfold
and change. And so I think sometimes just really compassionate,
gentle contemplation and asking ourselves beautiful questions. Sometimes just that
is the gift. It isn't about that I'm getting up
at midnight and I'm going to go and swim a
(03:43):
nice cold river and that's how I'm going to have
a great life. It's like, yeah, you can do that.
See like a lot of hard work. And so that's
why I wanted the book to feel like a conversation,
less like a book, more like a conversation between me
and you, and so great questions are essential in a conversation.
So I really wanted it to be well, I said
what I want to say? What's that for you? And
(04:06):
so I'm glad you like them. I spent a lot
of time really thinking about what those questions are, and
I really hope they do unfold maybe some new way
of seeing things. And I think that's a kind of
way to try and get change rather than trying to change.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I love that well, they definitely. I did sit with
those for a little bit when I finished each chapter
and just noticed what emerged. And I really like that process. Okay,
what don't I start in the middle of this list? Okay,
what are you feeling right now that you're not letting
(04:42):
yourself fully feel Christian O'Connell.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
Oh, this is a really big thing for me at
the moment.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
I am really struggling to talk about this book on
my own radio show. I feel really awkward. I don't
want to turn into you know you go online now
and everyone's trying to sell you you know this, that
and the other and by this. I don't want to
become one of them, and so I'm really My team
is saying, why aren't you talking about your book? It's
(05:09):
really good, and I'm like, I don't know what it is.
I'm getting really jammed up about It's this, Sally. I'm
starting to get into a cold sweat even just the
thinking about it. I'm finding it. I've written a book
called Unscript. There's a script that I'm saying, like, who
do you? I think it's a bit of who do
you think you are? And I don't it done badly?
Is me going on the radio to people? Would you
(05:29):
like to speak as well as me?
Speaker 4 (05:31):
Me and Mortal? You probably just stare into the speakers.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
How does this wizard of words talk well?
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Me and Mortal?
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Buy my book for twenty nine dollars that people are
going to be looking at the radio. What the hell
has Where's Christian gone? Who is this Egypt? So that's
where it is. I'm finding it really hard. And so
you said, with that lovely message of the weekend, it's
started to dissolve that a bit like this book is beautiful.
It's you've really You've got something really special here. And
so that really helped actually actually going. And I think
(06:01):
a lot of those scripts we have, they all stem
back to something happen in childhood, and there's a part
of you gets frozen in that time, in place and story.
And so I says, I'm speaking to you now I'm realizing,
Oh yeah, I do remember my mom and dad arguing
once of a parent's evening. One of the teacher said,
Christian will never go to college or university, and it's
cruel to actually say you could possibly do that. My
(06:22):
parents were arguing about this. I took that at a
very young age. Is there's something wrong with You're thick.
So now suddenly when you have a book, there's part
of you stare that kid going, so you think you
can now write a book. And so that's why I'm struggling.
But I'm putting everything into it. But there's still that
old story. And I think a lot of times in
life we're at the crossroads between the old story and
(06:44):
the news story, and there's a bit of a bump
up between them. I guess the old story wants to
keeps me safe, you know, and also aware. I am
an Australia where tool poppy syndrome. I don't want anyone thinking,
oh my god. You know, listen mate, you're playing nickelback
for a living right now. You've got a book with
some teachings. Just tell us the time and a funny
(07:05):
story and play Mondo rock and move on.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
And so.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Now isn't talking to you? If I if I spoke
like that about it, there's more vulnerability. So that I
think is I think I'm thinking, I'm thinking I'm making it.
I've got to have the perfect kind of sales pitch.
And it's like I don't. But that has been My
wife was like, you went, how long have you been
struggling with us?
Speaker 4 (07:25):
Went? Two or three weeks?
Speaker 1 (07:26):
When you haven't said anything the books about vulnerable. I said, yeah,
but vulnerabil it is a constant thing. You don't master
vulnerability and put your feet up and go I've now
I've never worked out I've done this level in life.
It's like whenever you get somewhere in life, you know
there's another hundred levels you have to do. How many
times you think, oh, you're trying to work out why
I why am I struggling with this, and go, oh,
(07:46):
we're not going out of childhood, are we?
Speaker 4 (07:48):
Spiller?
Speaker 1 (07:49):
It's always back in chard. All past lead back to childhood,
don't you know? Something happened and you believe the story
and then you took it as being true. And so
for me, that's really alive right now. And so yeah,
if you think that I'm writing this book thinking I'm
a master of this stuff, hopefully I'm struggling to even
talk about a book called unscript And this is how
(08:09):
it is to be human. You know, you're not constantly
sort of marching through life confidently. And if anyone does
tell you that they're lying, yeah, I think you're always
there's always some inner turmoil often or like a war
with yourself. And so actually, I'm now going to use
this conversation to actually talk about the book in a
(08:30):
more honest way and actually just say I've really written
this book. I really hope you could help people I
love this book, but I don't want to turn it
to one of those people as you see on social media.
I hope it don't come across like that, even though
it's a different way, isn't it. Rather, I've written this book,
it's called unscript and I've shared all my wonderful loans.
I'm very good at talking and you're not. That's why
you listen to me every morning.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
I find that answer so refreshing, because I mean, you
are you, So it's almost impossible to be about how
am I seeing in the world right, but we have
blind spots. But also I think you're I would say
a household name in Australia where where you're on the
radio every single day and people are waking up to you.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
But what does that mean?
Speaker 1 (09:13):
That doesn't mean anything, doesn't I think what that means.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
I think what people overlay over that is they think, well, Christian,
he's comfortable talking on air for three hours every day,
and he must just be this confident person that doesn't
have these thoughts in the back of his head, these doubts,
these vulnerabilities, and so you know, I think that's why
it's so refreshing, kind of going oh wow, even he
(09:37):
things like that, even if he doubts himself.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
You know, you know, because I get it, because actually
to do something like I do talk every day, there
is any script. People think that must take a superhuman
amount of confidence. I don't have that. I'm actually not confident.
At six am, I'm tired, to be really honest, something
might have happened personally the night before. That's still in me.
And so I think people think that get in their
(10:00):
head that you need a lot of confidence to be
a good speaker.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
You don't.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Confidence is something catches up. Momentum is more important. Mindset
is way more important than confidence. People need to separate
content from confidence, and so we get too much into that.
I don't feel confident. You don't need to do that.
Most of the problems about speaking are overthinking it, and
in fact my job is to underthink and just start speaking.
This start the show, you know, just start talking. Confidence
(10:27):
sometimes turns up about three minutes into my first break,
Oh they are, and then disappears again about half an
hour later.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
They go, are you're gone again? Anyway? I can't. I
can't wait for you to turn up.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Otherwise it'd be I'd be on air like once a
week for two minutes, so I'm on air five days
a week. So no, it's it's And also, I think
that the thing that surprised me about the book I
wrote five years ago, when I talked about having panic attacks,
that's still part of my life. It's always going to
be bubbling around. Sometimes they're a bit more bubbling, a
bit bigger. Other times there's periods where it's not there.
I can still be doing a radio show and have
(10:58):
a panic attack. And I hope that really how much
people knowing that, because I'm sure if you've ever heard
a radio show or something like me doing a rain
of show, and I think I didn't realize how reassuring
and comforting people found out. I dreaded, dreaded talking about
the panic attacks in the last book. I remember even
two days before the book came out, there was an
article on a newspaper and it was anxiety, silence of detail.
(11:20):
I remember throwing that newspaper across the floor and my
wife said, you know, I did warn you this is
going to be hard. And then I said, is it
too late to recall the books? When I think you
can go drive around the straight? I also don't think
that's the point. I think there's some part of me
that wants to share this because it might help somebody,
and it did help a lot of people, and so yeah,
I think it's really shown for me to know that
(11:42):
you can still have real fear. I have real panic attacks.
I was during the radio show, but I don't leave
the studio. I find ways of being with that in
a kind of way than I did years ago, And
so I think that's equally is important as saying, hey,
I've got some stuff that can help you find better stories,
tell better stories, and also a few other things about
(12:02):
speaking and the energetics of speaking that could really help you.
I think it's far more relatable to know, Oh no, no,
it's still really hard for me. I guess, even saying
that I'm struggling to even promote the book You Talk
for a Living. No, no, no, look, there's it's it's
like I said, in certain situations, something kicks in. And
so I hope that actually it helps people knowing that
(12:24):
it's still really tricky for me. Sometimes it's still really
tricky sometimes for me out with my family. You know,
you'll find it surprising to know I was incredibly nervous
during today's show about doing this interview, because it was like, Oh,
I hope I can do a good job. I hope
I don't screw it up because this is a different
context of me from being in that radio studio.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
That shocks me. And it also revised me how my
eahm emailed you to give you instructions on how to
get to the arm.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Building that I've been in working every morning and tell
me to get here early. Will I'm getting it at
five am?
Speaker 4 (12:57):
Where are you? Yes?
Speaker 1 (13:04):
There was like, yeah, I work in that building. We've
been there for eight years. I'll be there before you got.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
I think I'll find it.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Okay, Christian, your choice is to what we do next.
I can ask you another question from the unfolded questions.
You can ask me one.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
Well, I have to ask you one.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Okay. So that's my version of what's alive right now? Me?
Where do you think there's a script operating for you?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Gosh, like I feel like I have so many scripts operating. Well, Look,
we're launching books within the same month. Yours I think
comes out at the end of July July twenty eight,
I want to say, And I've got one coming out
on July seven, and so I can absolutely relate to
all of this, and I'm very aware of the tricks
my mind is playing on itself. Like a couple of
(13:46):
weeks ago, I was just going through some really intense
stuff with my daughter and helping support her through some
stuff she's going through at school, and it's all consuming,
and I'm lying in bed in the morning at five am,
and I'm worrying about her. And then my mind decides, Okay,
(14:07):
let's worry about something that is far less inconsequential to
distract you from what is obviously, you know, quite heartbreaking,
you know, the struggles that my daughter was going through.
And so I decided that I would worry about the
two book launches that I've put on, so unlike any
of my other books, I've decided I'm going to do
(14:28):
a Melbourne book launch and I'm going to do a
Sydney book launch. And when I made that decision, I
think I just imagined that a lot of people kind
of like my whack, and then I know a lot
of people, and that that'll be easy to fill a
room in Melbourne and Sydney. And it was literally before
I think it was, you know, the day or two
before I was about to just start promoting it to
(14:49):
the socials and the newsletter list to invite people along.
And I decided at that moment, at five am, I thought,
no one's going to come. You're going to be talking
to an empty room. Why on earth did you think
that like happy audacity to think that your work has
actually impacted other people and that they are going to
give up a week night, a school night, to come
(15:12):
along to a bookshop or in Melbourne the malt House
and pay money to hear you speak about your book.
You are an idiot. It is going to fail. No
one is going to come. And then I think my
husband was a way traveling and I called him and
I said, I know we've got stuff going on with
Frankie right now, but I'm also really stressed about my Bookqunch.
(15:33):
And I know that's really stupid because it doesn't matter
in the scheme of things. And the story that I
tell myself all the time is that you have to
be successful. You must be successful, you must achieve, achieve, achieve,
and if you don't fill up both of those rooms
in Melbourne and Sydney, you are objectively a failure. And
no one likes you or your work.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
Yeah, that's a lot.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
And first of all, you know, as a parent, when
you've got stuff going on, because I've got two daughters
and this has been a lot, you know, they do.
They go through some tough time, really really tough time,
and it is all encompassing, and it's worse at five am.
I didn't know it is, isn't it. You can't trust
your own thoughts. That's what I now just have to
just I've written down to be some amazing paper by
(16:15):
my bed, don't trust your thoughts at five am. Amount
of times I've started to resign for my radio show,
my marriage, give my kids up for adoption zone and
lousy deadbeat dad. And so I just now I literally
have written down do not trust any thoughts at five am, seriously,
because it's like and also I think those thoughts you
(16:36):
wake up. And also when you are a parent and
your kids are going through a tough time, it's front
and center.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
It's everywhere.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
There's nothing that demands more vulnerability in life than being
a parent.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
It just isn't.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
And so yeah, my heart goes out for you and
Frankie going through that. I know what that's like. I
hope she's okay, and it's so much and it is
probably heartbreaking, and so what happens though, I know when
that's been me, and that has been this year for
my wife and I. It has a magnetic quality, doesn't it?
And Chuck some other even something you were looking forward to,
(17:07):
I'm going, what if no one buys the book and
all you see are copies of and you know, being
reduced to like fifty cents, you know, and you can
really you know, your wife will probably leave you, the
kids won't want to speak to you again. You're probably
fired from the radio, and you'll probably be homeless, and
you'll probably have to live under a bridge. Something is
(17:28):
like top five and it's time to go to work.
And well that was a really nice half an out
of just kicking the crap out of myself. None of
it's helpful, But why do we all do that? It
is the magnetic aren't they? They have a gravitational field?
And why is about lying down? It really gets ahold
of you. I have to literally sometimes just get out
of bed and even just go for a short walk
(17:50):
around the bedroom or go and do something to start moving,
get your energy moving, and then you can start to
almost unstick from those thoughts and yeah, and all you
are is failure, that's all it is. There's no chance
of success, there's no chance, there's no slight chance. And
also I used to have this one. I used to
go perform and do stand up at the world's biggest
(18:12):
comedy festival, edmrad Festival. There are like three thousand shows.
It's huge, millions of people there. She you're up against
the best comedians, the one you're selling tickets. And some nights,
you know, I'm performing in a room of two hundred people.
There would be twenty or thirty people on a Sunday night,
and I would almost like, oh, this is going to
be horrendous. Some of my favorite shows are those twenty
(18:34):
or thirty because you leant into the twenty or thirty
and you used to go, actually, this is what's happening,
talk about your ego. I remember once speaking to them
saying that I wasn't sure what was going to come
on stage because there's only a twenty or thirty of them.
I could hear them already laughing, and then it took
me twenty minutes. I've pretended not to do show that
didn't have enough confidence a sort they start to laugh harder,
(18:56):
and I just thought, I'm just going to play with
the fact there is only twenty thirty people here, and
plus them they've actually selected to come and see me,
there are hundreds of bit more stablished comedians they could
have turned from. And then I played with Sometimes it's
playing with the fear and you can kind of almost Yeah,
(19:16):
of course you can be fined about not doing that. Yeah,
I mean, I've got a book launch. I've never done
one before. I've always avoided doing them because I was
too worried that no one would turn up, you know,
only be confronted with your own the factors you don't
actually matter that much, and you're like, oh, I don't
want to know that. I want to be deluded. And
so I've done one in Melbourne. I don't think I'm
going to do one in Sydney. And so I get.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
Why that's a worry, a real worry.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, but it's kind of like, how likely is that
your work matters to you? And it does matter to people?
It does, And again it's like putting that lens back
on you. If there's eight people there, then lucky those
eight people, they're going to get your magic because your
book I guarantee you has got or magic in it.
(20:01):
There's no way it wouldn't. It's got you in it.
And so a sort of eight people and tell her
about your book and what's in your heart. That's a
great night for them. It is so what there's not
three hundred and fifty, there's three hundred fifty empty seats.
Fuck it, you still got to do this for a living.
People are having a worse time than you right now.
There are and so it's kind of like that actually
(20:22):
isn't going to be the worst David, Like, even if
there's only twenty people there. Okay, yes, it's going to
suck for a bit, but it won't be the end
of you. I guarantee, on your death web when you
play aback your highlight reel, that is not going to
be there. Or it might be you laughing with some
friends six months later ago. I never told you how
many people came to Sydney. Wait what you said was
back all go and see all go and see you
(20:45):
in Sydney. Okay, I'm going to promote it on the
show now.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Okay, Sydney's sold out.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
Now, well there you go.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Melbourne's not you.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
Can promote right, I promote Melbourne.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Thank you. Question coming up, we get into what happens
when a leader finally names the thing that everybody is
saying out loud, and Christian shares the idea behind the
book he's already started writing. Next, which is all about
leadership and why no one warns you it's this lonely.
(21:14):
If you're looking for more tips to improve the way
you work can live. I write a short weekly newsletter
that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally.
You can sign up for that at Amantha dot com.
That's Amantha dot com. Okay, next question, where in your
(21:37):
life could you turn up the connection dial by ten percent?
Speaker 1 (21:41):
I tell you what it could be. It's still with
my team. I have this script actually about my team
that I need to bear a superhuman leader to them,
and I show no weakness and I don't need the help,
and I don't mean the help in an aggressive way.
I could do this by myself. It's not that it's
just not showing them that I'm overwhelmed or I had
a tough day yesterday, one of our daughters struggling. I'm here,
(22:04):
I'd find that hard to say that to the team,
and so what happens is they probably know there's something
going on in there, and so it's this kind of
this strange thing between you where they know I know,
but one of us doesn't want to bridge that gap.
And so as much as this is a book about connection,
so about disconnection. So literally before us doing this, I
just had a big chat for an hour with the team.
(22:26):
I just said how I found the last ten weeks.
It's found it really hard. I don't think we're running
the show in the right way. It's nothing to do
with actually what we're talking about the show. It's just
about the structure of the meetings. And I could see
that the more I talked about the effect that it
had on me, and I wish i'd spoken up about
it sooner. All pens go down, no pads go down,
(22:47):
and we had such a better sharing and connection. I
didn't sleep very well last night. I was really worried
about and I did a thing that I never do.
I'd put some notes on a whiteboard. To me, that
scene is like joyless, you know, almost like CEO of management,
like serious, And even as I walked in, I was
really nerves on them coming in the room because I
(23:09):
think I probably just have this idea of me that
I hear. I'm this crazy sort of you know, off
the cuff guy, missus spontaneous. He's made notes oh awkwards.
And so I locked the door and I could hit
the other side, and they thought I was planning, and
I went no, no, because I was still making sure they
could read my spelling, which is kind of messy on
the white board with new names of the meetings that
(23:31):
we all have, because I think I spent a lot
time coming up with the names of things. I think
the naming of framing matters. And so I was really
scared because they know now he's put real thought into this.
He spent wait, he spent his whole weekend coming up
with names for the meetings. You can tell his daughters
that left home. He's got too much time. Is he
having a breakdown or another breakdown? And so it really
(23:53):
was I really had to take that risk and dialuct
the connection, and yeah, because I found it really hard.
That was quite a lot to do that. I wrote
it up before the show today and then scrubbed out
I'll do it later on this week. And then I
was like you're going to do it today, you won't
feel like it tomorrow. And so yeah, I'm the leader
on my team, and I empower everybody else to be
(24:14):
leaders as well. But I think sometimes being a leaders
really lonely, and you find it really hard to actually
talk about when you're struggling, you know, And I think
if they see I'm weak, they're going to worry about me,
or they're not going to think the same about me.
I must protect them from that. And they're adults, they're
actually okay. If I say I'm quite tired, they're just
(24:35):
going to go, yeah, of course, yeah, let me doing it.
A long time, I didn't get into rated to become
a leader. Then very quickly I realized, wait, I'm in
charge now of people. I didn't get into management, and
then I had to. I think I was a manager
for the first half of my career and now I've
definitely worked a lot with some great coaches on what
(24:57):
leadership is and what it isn't. But they're really thing
for me was like I didn't realize how lonely it was.
I realized there's so much loneliness, overwhelmed, burnout. You're expected
to have all the answers, and you're not expected to
have all the answers. It's constant what do you think
of this?
Speaker 4 (25:12):
What do you think of that? And it's like, you
don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
I'd imagine for you, like you're a doctor, you're psychologist,
and as a brilliant stage is that takes so much
hard work to get that. I imagine sometimes that must
feel quite quite lonely as well.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
It feels really lonely. And I think during the worst
moments and the worst times of leading Inventium have definitely
been the loneliest and the most disconnected. And I feel
like it's taken me a long time to realize that
I don't actually have to have all the answers. Yeah,
I had one on ones with all my team, like
(25:48):
have one on ones with them every week, but once
a quarter we sit down, we do a self reflection
and I give them questions to think about, and we
talk about them and their experience and you know, looking forward,
looking backwards and what came up. And what I'm really
aware of at the moment in the business is that
there's a lot of pressure on all of us because
there's you know, we're in a really fortunate position where
(26:10):
there's heaps of demand for what we're doing, and we're
trying to manage that demand, and it's just meaning that
we're all working quite hard. And I'm hearing this from
all my team members, and I shared with them why
I find it so hard, because when me, as the
head of the business, is deciding what do I do
(26:30):
about this pressure? Whatever I decide, there's probably going to
be a three month lag to that having an impact.
Like do we decide to hire someone, Okay, well, that
takes time and it's probably three months before they're in
the business, and then we're training them up and that's
another few yeah, yeah, Or you know, could I relieve
pressure through maybe saying no to more clients that want
(26:52):
to work with us or just pushing them back and
risking losing them, which is you know, can be a
difficult decision as a business owner of course, And again though,
that's not going to relieve pressure instantly because we've got
a very very significant pipeline of work. And normally I
would just go, yeah, I hear you, and there's pressure,
(27:14):
and you let me know what I can do to
support you. But then I also found, okay, through sharing
just how am I thinking about this and this is
stressing me out, and I don't know what the solution is,
which I wouldn't normally share because I feel like as
a leader, they wouldn't say fair.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Of hands, honestly up whole division. Don't we resell them
into a vision because we think that's what a leader
should do. And it's taking in way too long, too
much burnout, I would says characterize a lot of my
leadership to realize they don't need that. What they need
is for you to see the human there and that's
beyond status. And I think actually what happens is is
(27:52):
more energizing. When you do do that collectively, the room
goes and oh and they I think they connect more
with you. And sometimes, what is it by just naming
the white elephant in the room, you don't even need
to fixate on it.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Like what are we going to do?
Speaker 1 (28:11):
The fact that you just finally say it. It's that
that unfolding us work somehow things to shift. They've not
done anything, but you've done. What's the hardest thing is
speaking the thing into existence.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
I find that that moment of exhale where you literally
see people exhale when you name the thing and you say,
I don't have the answers right now. I'm struggling with
this as well. And counterintuitively, you go, they're going to
hate that, They're going to get stressed. I'm putting my
stress onto them and my not knowing onto them. But
actually it has the opposite effect. Oh, she's been real
(28:46):
with us.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
I think that there's a block in the room. It's
kind of like the river. There's something that's blocking the
flow of the river of between you all, and sometimes
is pointing it and naming it because they know it's there,
but you're the one, as the lead that's not talking
about it. And when you do point it out, I
do know about that rock, by the way, and actually
I think the rock is me and how I'm thinking
about this problem. Then they go ah, and it's almost
(29:09):
like you. Then the rock moves or somehow you go
around it, and you're back into this torrent, this flow
of energy between you on Then actually ideas start coming,
but most importantly, you get reconnected again on a human level,
and that always is energizing, and it isn't about the fixing.
I think it's more about the connecting than everything else.
(29:29):
Kind of like can unfold. It's like you're getting back
into the rich soil. It's like the atmosphere is richer
again for change and creativity and positive solutions. But when
there's constriction news I was saying earlier about walking, talking,
breathing antennas. When there's constriction in you, that's what's creating
(29:49):
a blockage, and it's about fixing it or coming up there.
It's something more simple. Often it's actually just naming it.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
It's a beautiful thing. Leadership.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
It's an incredibly beautiful thing, and if you get it right,
it's a part off of a liveness and transformation. But
if you get it wrong, it's the opposite, and there's
a deadening in there, a lessing of the life force
between all of you. I actually think the next book
I write I've started to write will be about is
about leadership, because I guess I would call myself an
an accident win reluctant leader to begin with. You know,
(30:18):
no one hired me to be a CEO or chief
or anything. I just suddenly, very early in my career.
If I leave everything to my bosses, I'm not in control.
I'm not the author of I'm not taking ownership of
my life and career, and I'm just going to contort
myself and how they think I should speak on the radio.
And I remember watching this clip Jerry Seinfeld was talking
(30:40):
about asking David Letterman whether or not I should do a sitcom,
and you know, Jerry was worried that his career was
going really well as a stand up and suddenly he
could do the sitcom and it could get it could
easily get canceled, and that could hurt his career. And
David's just said to him, if you're going to fail,
do it your way, what a beautiful way, it felt
(31:00):
the right way. Don't fail by committee or consensus, fail
doing it your way. And Jerry is like, I'm going
to do it my way, and you know the rest
is history. And so I think it's a bit of that.
Sometimes I just find I actually think everyone is a leader,
and I don't think it's just about a title or
corner offers. I think it's about something else, that there
are qualities of leadership.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
And it's just taken me a long time. I still think.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Also, it's it's day to day, isn't it. How you
are right now is different from tomorrow, and I think
if you understand that a bit kind to yourself, it's
easy to lead yourself through that. I think it's just
sometimes it's about being aware of like, yeah, I'm quite
tense right now in this room. There is a lot
of responsibility. You shouldn't take that lightly, but it's understandable
(31:45):
how that would feel quite heavy.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Christian, thank you so much for coming back on and
just I love the way that you share and the
vulnerability and the honesty that you bring. It's just the
last hour has been an absolute joy.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Me too, and also a deep thanks for you really
did nudge something in me, you unfolded something in me,
and getting that from you has really ceded what I've
I've used a book, so you're proud. Actually you were
kind enough not at the end of an interview to
go thank you bye bye. You hung around a bit
more and you listened to where I was, and that
(32:20):
meant a lot of the time I didn't know someone
like you, an actual psychologist, a learned person, you know,
and so for you to sort of see actually, some
you can do that, and that's what we need. Sometimes
we need other people actually that say hey, you could
do that. I think my book really, I think there's
some at the end. I think sometimes we're just looking
for a permission slip, and I think you gave me
a permission slip so a couple of years ago.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
And I've loved always, I've changed you, but I really
loved this one. And thanks for being so honest as well,
my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
If there's one thing I'm taking from this conversation, it's
that connection that beats confidence. Every single time Christian didn't
fix anything with his team during that story you told,
he just named what was actually going on, and you
could almost feel the whole room exhale. The next time
(33:08):
you're carrying something at work and pretending you're not, maybe
try naming it out loud, even just to one person.
You might be surprised who exhales with you. Christian's new book,
Unscript is out on the twenty eighth of July, and
if you missed part one, where Christian opens up about
his book launch nerves, you can find that in the
(33:31):
show notes. And if christian story about finally being honest
with his team hit home for you, I recommend going
back and listening to my two part conversation with my
own teammate Ali Sully, Where we pull apart Inventum's the
hardest year back in twenty twenty four, and what it
actually took to lead through it. The links to all
(33:52):
those episodes are in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
If you like today's show, make sure you hit follow
on your podcast app to be alerted when you drop.
How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of
the Warringery people, part of the Coulan nation.
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