August 26, 2026 • 32 mins
Every productivity guru will tell you the same thing: set realistic goals, or you're setting yourself up to fail. Jia Jiang did the opposite. He told the internet he'd sell 10,000 copies of his new book in 100 days, sold about 3,000, and is now going around calling it one of the best things he's ever done.
He's not being delusional about it either. He'll tell you straight up that part of him wishes he'd hit the number. He just thinks failing loudly beats succeeding quietly, which might explain why only 9% of people who make a New Year's resolution actually stick to it. Most of us are setting goals to feel good for five minutes, not because we've figured out how to actually get there.
In this episode, I sit down with Jia Jiang, the entrepreneur and speaker behind 100 Days of Rejection, a YouTube experiment that became a TED Talk with more than 10 million views. We talk about his new book, Easy Discipline, and how he turns huge, terrifying goals into something he can actually control day to day.
If you have ever downgraded a goal so you wouldn't have to feel bad about missing it, Jia is about to make you rethink that entirely.
Jia and I discuss:
- Why Jia deliberately sets goals so ambitious he is likely to miss them, and why a public near miss beats a comfortable target
- The one action goal: how to turn a big, uncontrollable ambition into a daily input you can fully control
- The inspiration index, the two numbers Jia tracks on every project, and why you need both the outcome and the input
- The Mover's Manual, and how changing his physical environment lets Jia get three to ten times more done in an afternoon
- Reverse AI: what happened when Jia started deliberately training himself the way AI models are trained
- The letter he wrote to Steven Bartlett after being turned down for Diary of a CEO, and why he published it anyway
Key quotes
"I'd rather fail my ambition publicly than letting it die inside privately."
"When you are already rejected, you have nothing to lose. When you have nothing to lose, you have nothing to fear."
Connect with Jia Jiang on Instagram, X (Twitter), LinkedIn and his website, read his newsletter on Substack, and check out his latest book Easy Discipline.
If you enjoyed this episode, check out my chat with Google's Executive Productivity Advisor, Laura Mae Martin, on the practical strategies she uses to get more done in less time:
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Jia Zhang told the world he'd sell 10,000 copies of
his new book in 100 days. He got to around 3,000.
And he has no regrets about this very public failure.
Jia is the man behind 100 Days of Rejection, which
was a YouTube experiment that became a TED Talk with
(00:23):
more than 10 million views. And his latest book is
called Easy Discipline. In this episode, you'll get to hear
His one action goal, which turns the outcome you can't
control into the daily input that you can. We will
also learn about his inspiration index, which are the two
(00:43):
numbers he tracks on every ambitious project. And he's going
to walk through the mover's manual, which is the way
he engineers an environment where he gets up to 10
times more done in a typical day. Welcome to How
(01:05):
I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and strategies for
optimizing your day.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I'm your host, Dr. Amantha Imber.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I want to start with a challenge you've put out
to the world because right now you're promoting easy discipline
and you have a very public challenge where you've said,
I am going to give myself 100 days to sell
10,000 copies of the book. And when I checked that yesterday,
and I believe your book is launching on maybe the
(01:38):
day that we are recording, which is the 21st of July.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Is that right? Is your book launching today?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
And when I checked your goal yesterday, you were 27.5%
of the way to your goal. So I want you
to explain why did you set such a massive goal
and why are you doing it so publicly? And how
did you land on day of publication?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Wow, Amanda, I did not think this would be the
first question to ask. I'm so glad. I'm so glad
because this is real.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
This is real. Actually, I just crossed 3,000. Well done.
Thank you. But I'm trying to make a last-minute push.
So I'll tell you why.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Because the whole idea in written easy-to-do plan, or just
my life, it's about turning an ambitious goal into a play,
into something that I can enjoy, into something that has
a beginning and end. I feel like a lot of
people have a long, ambitious goal that turns into life
goals and forever grinds. I don't believe that. I feel
(02:39):
like a project should have a beginning and end. And
I can extend it. I can do this again. However,
I need to have time container to be able to
for me to go all out and have the most
fun possible and try all kind of creative ideas trying
to achieve a certain goal. And in the end, my
biggest criteria is can I have the most fun?
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Can I have the most fun?
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Can I try everything that I thought was possible throughout
this process? And also, I believe setting an ambitious goal
versus not ambitious goal is hugely different. If I set
my ambition to be 3,000, which is really good. If
you pre-sell 3,000 books, you're doing awesome. But I feel
if I set to 3,000, I might land at 2,000
(03:24):
and feel pretty content. Feel like, okay, it's already better
than the vast majority of book launches. I think the
On average, pre-sales goes between, like by a big publisher,
traditionally publishing book, it's like 200 to 500 books. So
you can already achieve those goals, but by actually setting
a goal that's so ambitious, you kind of start having
(03:46):
to change your, elevate your way of thinking and try
different things, right? Now, I didn't get the number that
I set to be, right? But the number I got
to is really good compared to, Any normal type of ambition.
But also because of this, I get to try things
and see what works and what doesn't work. So I
(04:07):
had a great time. I had a great 100 days.
But part of me does feel like, oh, do I
have disappointment that it's not 7,000?
Speaker 4 (04:15):
It's not 12,000? It's not 25,000? Of course.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Because I set the goal to be extremely ambitious, right? So, yeah,
sometimes you set an ambitious goal, but the thing is
you have to separate that, right? You have to separate
the achieving of that goal versus the process of actually
trying to do it. So I think I really had
(04:36):
a good time in these 100 days. And I'd set
my life to be these 100-day sprints going forward. You know,
I've done 100 days of rejection therapy. That's what got
me famous, right? That's how you probably have heard of me.
100 days, when it's done, it's done. I had a
great time. I changed, I set up my whole career
and I love what I did. But that had a container, right?
(04:58):
And also have another container and have another container afterward.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Why then did you do it so publicly?
Speaker 1 (05:04):
And likewise, with your 100 days of rejection therapy, and
I would imagine that listeners that have come across your work,
it probably was there when you basically documented 100 days
of putting yourself in out doing some certainly ridiculous asks
that would make people just go, ah, how are you
(05:26):
doing that?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
So why do this in public?
Speaker 4 (05:29):
One, I don't take myself too seriously.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
And I feel like by putting me out there, I
think most people would rather do this privately because if
you fail, you don't feel the shame or embarrassment, right?
But because there's some risk of embarrassment and even shame,
it actually drives me forward. But also, I don't take
myself too seriously. So there's kind of a dichotomy, right?
(05:51):
There's a contradiction that's always involving something like this. But also,
there is a, I think it's a hidden force that
a lot of people don't want to use, which is
people want to hide their ambition and do it privately.
But for me to do it publicly, it creates a
type of accountability for me to keep going. Because when
day 40, right, when nothing happens, when I'm, I think
(06:13):
on day 40, I'm at 200.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Or something like that.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
And I'm like, oh my gosh, if I wouldn't do
this publicly, I'll be like, yeah, you know what? I mean,
go take a nap. Let me go take a trip.
But because I do this publicly, I got to keep
doing it. I cannot let up.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
How then do you reconcile the fact that you set
this huge goal.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Of 10,000 copies? You're at about 3,000 copies.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Do you reframe things or like, how do you get
comfortable rather than just go, oh my gosh, I'm so
disappointed in myself. I failed, which I'm getting the sense
is not how you're feeling.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
I would be lying to say, I don't have that
part of me. I'll be lying to say, you know,
I'm like, look at me.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
I'm awesome.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Three thousand. You try to sell three thousand pre-orders. There's
part of me just like that. But there's other part
of me is like, man, I wish I've achieved that goal.
To me, how do I reconcile is I wrote a
great story. I set up an amazing goal and I
live a great story. Whether or not I got that goal,
I think it matters. I'd be lying if I said
it doesn't matter. But what matters most is I wrote
(07:16):
a great story. And I see life... Sometimes people think
about life as a series of transactions. You know, a
series of transactions and goals. You achieve them and stuff.
I see life as moments of highlights, of struggle, of ambition,
of journey. Because I feel... Because to me, the gap
(07:39):
between where I said I was going to do to
what I did is huge. And it's all really artificial.
That in itself is crazy. And that in itself will
leave a long impact in my whole life. Do I
rather be over 10,000? Of course I do. But the
fact that I set that crazy goal and I achieved
a portion of it, which is impressive on its own,
(08:02):
that's a great story in my own mind. In the end,
in my last days of my life, whether I face
judgment or whatever that is, I'm not going to be like, damn,
I'm 7,000 short on my goal. I would not feel that.
And I would feel like I had a great journey.
I would tell my kids, you see your dad? I
(08:22):
set this crazy goal.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
I went nuts. And I achieved part of it and
had a great time.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
And I'd rather fail my ambition publicly than letting it
die inside privately.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
I love that. And I mean, what a great example
for your kids as well. I want to move in.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
I'm not going to answer this question, by the way.
I've Just sometimes, like, I think about this every day, Amanda.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
I do. I think about this every day.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
And I'm so glad you're so real with me to
ask this question because it's raw.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
It's real.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I can imagine.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
And literally, I've been on the journey. So I've launched
my fifth book here in Australia. Literally two weeks ago
was pub day. So when I was reading your sub stack,
I was like, oh, yeah, I'm feeling that.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I'm feeling that a lot.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Congratulations, Amanda, by the way.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
I want to get into some of the strategies in
Easy Discipline.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
I love the book and I feel like there was
some really novel ways of looking at how can we
change our behavior for the better. And I want to
start with the one action goal, which I feel like
is pretty core to your system. So can you explain
what is a one action goal and also what is
it not?
Speaker 3 (09:36):
One action goal is a way for me to achieve ambitions.
As simple as that. I grew up in China. I
came to the United States as a teenager. I spent
most of my time here. But in China, I learned
a word. It's called the high eyes, low hands disease.
It means you have a high goal, but then your
hands are low.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Your eyes are high. Your hands are low.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
You're not achieving that those goals so if you see
in america here about less than half of people who
said new year's resolutions you want to lose weight you
want to make a lot of money you want to
start a podcast you want to publish a book right
but by the end of the year only nine percent
of people who actually make new resolution keep them so
(10:18):
that means you People are setting their dopamine. People are
setting their satisfaction when they are setting the goal. But
they don't like the journey. They don't know how to
get there. Very quick, when you don't like the journey
and you just like the result, very quickly, that's how
by the second weekend you.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Give up your goal.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
So one action goal does the opposite of that. It
takes a very big ambition into an.
Speaker 4 (10:48):
Action goal.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Meaning instead of saying, I want to lose weight, your
goal is, I want to exercise, I'll say, for example,
I want to exercise 100 hours in the next three months,
something like that, right? You started setting your input as
a goal, and then you track that. Now, also, you
do one thing, because you're tracking that just for one thing.
(11:10):
When you do that, it turns complex ambition into a
thing that you can 100% control. You cannot control everything.
you make a million dollars. You cannot control your fine love.
You cannot control you get promoted this quarter. It's not
out of your control, but you can 100% control what
you do, right? You take the time to exercise. You
(11:30):
sometimes even get promoted, right, if you're.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
In the workplace.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
To get promoted, maybe in the next 300 days, you
want to have 100 amazing conversations with your team members,
with other stakeholders within your company, with other industry leaders,
with the leader of your company, and to vastly expand
your network. to elevate your way of thinking. You can
focus on this input, action goals.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
That's one thing, right? You have a timeframe. In my time,
it's usually 100 days.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
I found this an amazing time to do something extremely ambitious,
but also you get burned out, right?
Speaker 4 (12:03):
After 100 days, you rest. Like when I'm done, I rest.
I'm good.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
You set up a goal for taking the action and
that result usually takes over itself.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
So I'm wondering how important is it to, like you have,
build in like failure into the system? I'm sort of
wondering how this relates to the sell a thousand copies
of the book goal.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Sorry, 10,000.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Yeah. So I always make these goals cumulative, meaning that
If I don't do anything today, I'm going to be like,
this is it. I mean, you know, look at me.
I'm a bum and it's over. And I can do
a little bit more. I can do it tomorrow. I
can do a little bit more tomorrow. So let's say
my goal is I want to talk, have 100 meaningful
conversations in the next 100 days, right? Over the weekend,
(12:57):
sometimes I, you know, take the weekend off.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
That's fine.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
If on Monday I talk to two people, you know,
and the next day and maybe one day I set
up like a morning meeting. And I've talked to more people, right?
So this way, I achieve a cumulative result. I don't
have to be like, I have to do 100 days
straight of talking to people because I feel like when
I do that, if I fail one day, I feel
such a failure, right? So go back to the 10,000 copies.
(13:23):
The 10,000 copies, that's the outcome I want to do, right?
People seems like I focus on that, but there's actually
deep down, there's one action goals involved. That involving, for example,
for me to drive to ride every day, for me
to ride to reach out to people every day, to
try different works, you know, to try different ways, right?
I reach out to do get this done. I try
(13:45):
all kinds of things. I try to play poker using
Easy Discipline. And I attended the World Series of Poker.
I play using Easy Discipline to do that. And I
try to do corporate outreaches, you know, to see if
I can have corporate bulk buys. And I try to
write emails to my audience. And also, I tried all
kinds of things, right? These are my.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
Input goals I want to do.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
So the outcome is what people say, but it's not my,
when I focus every day though, I have my own
input goal to achieve in order to get to the outcome.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Okay, so that's probably a good segue into, I think
you call it the inspiration index.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
With the two critical numbers.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So can you talk about like these two numbers, which
I guess you've alluded to, and why do we need both?
10,000 copies?
Speaker 3 (14:32):
That's one half of the inspiration. So inspiration index has
two numbers, right? One number is the outcome you want
to achieve, right? That's the thing that we write on
our new resolutions. That's the thing that gave us the
dopamine when we declared them, but we have no way
to achieve, right? That's the number that is almost like
a beacon on top of the mountain, right? It shines
at you. You know where you're going. The other half
(14:53):
of inspiration index is your one action goal. It's what
you put in. It's the conversations you have. It's the
outreaches you make. It's the number of emails you write.
It's the time of the day you spend. That's the
other half of inspiration index. In the world, I see
a lot of people, like I see a lot of
really successful companies actually, they don't know this, but they
(15:16):
subconsciously do this, right? So they set up a, okay,
you have a quarterly revenue. They have a quarterly revenue goal,
but their input is, all right, everyone, every day you
make 100 phone calls or something like that. So you
have both the outcome that you cannot control, but it's
inspiring you, but also you have the input that you
can control that's guiding you. So if the outcome goal
(15:38):
is like the beacon on a mountain, your input goal
is your compass or all-trail map where you just track
your steps.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
That's how you get there.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
So for the 100 days to sell 10,000 copies, what
was your input goal? number that you were using for
that challenge?
Speaker 3 (15:57):
That input number actually changes every, I turned this into
14 moonshots, like 14 things I tried. Some of them
actually got me a really pretty good return. And some
of them got nothing. Like I did a lot of moonshots.
As I mentioned, I played poker. I tried to use
easy discipline to train my kids tennis. And I tried
all kinds of crazy things. Some of them didn't get anywhere,
(16:19):
but I spent a week, you know, if it went somewhere, cool.
It might generate some buzz. It might become some sort
of book sale. But the thing that actually worked really
bring me tons of results is actually, it's boring, but
it's actually tried and true corporate book purchases.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
Right.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
I've had a lot of organizations to be like they
would love to be on my wall. So I set
up a public wall to say if you're actually buying
my book, you get on the wall. So the most
vast majority of the copies actually from people who run
organizations like, OK, I'll buy 100 copies for my people.
You know, that's awesome. You can come and, you know,
how about you come you hop on a Zoom and
say hi. Some people just want their name, their organization's
(16:57):
name to be on this wall. So that became like,
you know, after halfway, we figure out, OK, that's the
thing we should go. So we start focusing on that.
We're talking about a big ambitious goals, right? There are
some near misses that if I actually hit, that could
actually get to me that number.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Coming up next, Ja tells me about the letter he
wrote to Stephen Bartlett pitching himself for Diary of a
CEO and why he posted it publicly even after they
said no. Ja also explains what he calls reverse AI,
which is where he trains himself the exact same way
we train our AI models. If you're looking for more
(17:41):
tips to improve the way you work and live, I
write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered
that have helped me personally.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
You can sign up for that at amantha.com. That's amantha.com.
I saw, I think this was on your sub stack.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
You published a outreach letter that you sent to Stephen
Bartlett to get on diary of the CEO.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Tell me, have you heard from him? And also why
did you publish it publicly?
Speaker 3 (18:11):
First of all, they saw the letter. They're really thankful. And,
but they're, they're like, we're, we're full, but also it's easy, right?
I did my best. Sometimes you can't, you cannot control
the outcome. And this is a classic example, right? Is
the story better to say?
Speaker 4 (18:23):
Yeah. They said no, but I read an amazing letter.
They got me. Yes. Yes, absolutely. But throughout my life,
I've been able to do this.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
You know, just when I take someone reject me, I
see that as an opportunity for me to actually write something,
to make an art, right? I see that letter itself
as my way of generating an art. You know, I
want to see how's my writing chops. You know, can
I actually write a letter that actually touched me? I
learned this from the author. His name is Jiang Chu.
He made his name by directing this movie called Crazy
(18:51):
Rich Asians. And it is a really amazing movie and
he became very famous afterward. He just directed Wicked, right?
He was the director.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
But he wanted to use the song Yellow at the
end of his movie. Coppola didn't know.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Coppola is like, we don't want our song to turn
into a slur because it's about, it's a movie about Asians.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
You have a word yellow. That's not, he didn't like it, right?
Speaker 3 (19:19):
But, you know, John True, he wrote an amazing letter afterward.
He's like, for all my life, right? This word yellow
has a very complicated relationship to me. That's a number
that can describe what I look like, what my race,
but also it could become a slur. But when I
hear your song, it's the first time in my life
(19:39):
I felt the word yellow can be so beautiful, so poetic.
And if I can use your song, and um we'll
write our own lyrics right but if you can use
your song it will mean the world to me and
right so when they get the letter right away they
say yes you know they're like oh cool i didn't
write that kind of letter to steven bartlett but i
think i was actually pretty so they when i wrote
(20:00):
to them they right away they got back to me
they're like thank you so much this is actually really
touching but we're gonna keep our options open and and
so maybe sometimes in the future right And I would think,
you know, one of these days I'll be on there.
Sometimes we think we do something that's right now. But
also it's like planting a tree, planting an idea. I
have a lot of times where I tried something like
(20:21):
a few years ago.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
It didn't happen.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
But a few years later, because of what I tried,
they remember me. They come back to me and it happens.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Because of your 100 days of rejection therapy, how do you...
Look at rejection now that is probably really different from
other people that haven't gone through rejection therapy.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
100%.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
So I see rejection as an opportunity for me to
make some sort of art, you know, to perform in
a way that actually touches me. As I mentioned, that
letter was a manifestation of that when I get rejected, right?
And when I get rejected, I'd rather take the step
to be bold to ask again. rather than just say,
just take it, right? And when I do it in
(21:03):
a way that actually has a lot of skills to it, where,
you know, I would say, I'll give people off ramp.
I wouldn't want to just corner people to say, you
have to do this, right? But I'll give people off
ramp so they have the choice to say no to me.
There are so many things you can do after rejection
that you can ask again, you can ask the same
person again, ask a different person, you can ask a
(21:24):
different way, ask a different time, You can do all
kinds of different things, but most people will just quit
after rejection because it feels uncomfortable.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
It feels definitive.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
But to me, that's actually rejection is the opportunity for
you to actually give another shot that could be like,
you know, a different way. But also, you know, a
lot of times I make it artistic because when you
are already rejected, you have nothing to lose. When you
have nothing to lose, you have nothing to fear.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
So when you're, say, writing that letter to Stephen Bartlett,
what is going through your your head? Because like, I
imagine the average person thinking, oh, I'm going to pitch
myself to Diary of a CEO, biggest podcast in the universe.
Oh no, he'll probably say, no, I'm not even going
to bother. I imagine that that is probably how a
lot of people think. So tell me what is going
(22:11):
through your brain when you're making the decision to write
the letter and actually writing it and sending it?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Yeah. I don't know if that's going to have an effect.
I kind of don't care in a way, Because I'm
already rejected. I already got a no. It's almost like
a free roll. I play poker again. It's like a
free roll. There's no downside. But this time it's all upside.
The upside is not just about the result. He might
(22:37):
consider and give me a yes. There's that upside. But
the other upside is, oh, this gives me an opportunity
to actually write a great letter, to have a closure
with this thing I care about. Sometimes people don't have closures.
They think they tried something that didn't work, and later
on it's like, maybe I should try it, right? But
to me, I want to have a beautiful closure. You know,
(22:58):
even that result is no. I will let myself know
in the future that I gave my best shot. And
not just the best, I gave my beautiful shot. And
that shot is who I am, right? It's an expression
of my inner feelings and my relationship with that show.
And when I close it, and I felt, one, no regret,
but also true happiness. You know, true happiness of me.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
I see how I see myself, right?
Speaker 3 (23:22):
The courage, the willingness to have fun, the willingness to
make art, even in face of rejection. That's a self-reinforcing
identity I tell myself that made me stronger.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
I want to move on to talking about the Movers Manual.
Can you tell me what this is all about?
Speaker 3 (23:39):
I have a feeling that you might ask this because
this is really, we're talking about work, right? This is
actually how I do work. So, A lot of times
for us to be our best, our environment is as
crucial as our willpower. Probably more important than our willpower
than what we try to do. So there are ways
we can do to shape our everyday environment so we
(24:01):
are our best. I have my phone, you know, Steve
Jobs invented it. I mean, he came up with the
iPhone 20 years ago. I think he could not imagine
by now people are using this for doom scrolling and,
you know, social media for a lot of bad stuff,
you know, mental health issues, right? So this thing I
use to work, my computer, they become a source of
distraction for me. News notifications and all that, social media.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
But also I write. How can I focus? So I
created a micro environment. I'm going to move.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I'm not moving to a different place. It's not like
I'm going to Australia. That's going to be any better
because you also have internet there, right? So I'd be like, okay,
how can I move to a place that has no internet?
I mean, I can't take my family with me. But
what if I drive every day to a place where
there's no internet and just write? I don't bring my
phone with me. So now there's no Wi-Fi. There's no data.
(24:51):
And I just, my computer, that's kind of a brick
to become, not connected, that becomes the most beautiful typewriter
in the world. And then I write in my car.
I park at a beach and I just me seeing
the beautiful ocean and write. When I do that, when
I have no distraction, my productivity just shoot up. And
I can do something like three to four, maybe five,
(25:14):
10 times the work I get done in one afternoon
than I did with distraction. I'm able to achieve this
type of deep work. So that's what I call mover's manual, right?
You can move to a place where you're better at working, right?
There are other part of this that you can actually
clean your environment at home, right? To make it more organized,
to make it more inspiring to help you to the
(25:36):
better work. Also, you can actually clear your schedule, right?
Instead of having a meeting every day, what if on
your schedule, you have two days out of the week that.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
Has no meeting.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
So for you just to do deep work. So you
can also do scheduling, right? So that, in a sense,
that's a mover's manual. You can do so many things
to better your environment for you to be more creative
and productive.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I want to ask about reverse AI, where you've talked
about your approach to training yourself in the way that
AI models are trained.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Can you explain what you mean by this?
Speaker 3 (26:13):
How AI is trained is because it's getting fed so
much data, so much training material. It's able to train
with all this type of material from all kinds of
things in life. It seems to know everything about anything,
but also it's able to make connections of things that
are in the vast knowledge base it has, right? It's
(26:34):
really fascinating because we are almost trained in the way
AI is.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
The more we read, the more.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Broad we are, the better we are sometimes to find
creative angles for something in particular. It's like what Steve
Jobs said, right? In his famous speech, he's talking about
connecting the dots. He connected dots when he was learning calligraphy.
Later on, he's able to use his training to write
calligraphy into designing the Macintosh user interface. It's those things
(27:03):
that connect together. If he didn't learn calligraphy, he wouldn't
be able to design that user interface. There might not
be a Macintosh, or it is a very different way.
So the best people who actually create solutions that no
one can think of are usually the generalists. So David Epstein,
he wrote this famous book called The Range. I really
love that book, talking about generalists, how they're connecting dots.
(27:26):
That's exactly how what AI does when it was general training.
It gave me an idea of doing reverse AI on myself,
meaning let me read on different subject matters, right? Let
me listen to interviews, right? Of course, by Amanda and
of course, by Diary of a CEO, but also listen
to things that are about history. And then listen to
things about politics. Not the modern politics that's kind of nasty,
(27:49):
but ancient politics. Let me read things on art. And
then the book itself, Easy Discipline, is about 12 different
stories where I connected the dots from all stories in
history and how they're able to tell you that easy discipline. Actually,
the best way to have discipline is to have passion.
(28:09):
Me writing the book is an example of reverse AI
where I used AI training on machine. I use that
to train myself to be able to produce this book.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Now, you're in Las Vegas at the moment.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
I'm imagining you're in Vegas not to gamble, but to
give a keynote speech is my guess.
Speaker 4 (28:26):
Yes, I am.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yes, I am.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
I have an event tomorrow morning. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Tell me, the final thing I want to ask is
that I've read that you think about these speeches and often,
you know, for those that give presentations, it's often repeating
the same thing. again and again, kind of like actors
have to do in a show. And tell me how
you think of a speech in terms of being like
a one-time artwork.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
So over my career, I've made, I think probably around
500 different speeches. But I mean, when it comes to
when I started, right, that, you know, probably over 500,
I've had over 400 paid speeches, right? So I do
this for a living. Now, it can get pretty repetitive
because I'm telling a story, right? It's almost like singing
(29:09):
the same song, but 45 minutes long. Now, if you
think about that, you start losing passion, right? You just
start performing the same song. What I try to have
is this idea is from Japanese tea ceremony. So if
you have been to Japan, if you haven't done a
Japanese tea ceremony, I highly recommend it. Or if you
haven't been to Japan, I highly recommend Japan too. But
(29:31):
Japanese tea ceremony, they have this idea, it's called Ichigo Ichie,
meaning you sit there, right, and the host will make
tea for you and talk to you and that person
is very present with you she's giving you even though
she's done that same thing like probably thousands of times
but every time she's doing it for you it's almost
like she's doing that the first time and she's giving
(29:53):
you her best and you feel it you feel that
type of connection within environment with her and Ichigo Ichie
literally translates into one meeting, one time only. So even
though we're meeting right now, I'm treating this as the
only time we would meet in our lives. Even though
(30:13):
we might meet again in the future, we can never
replicate this moment we have. So by having that moment,
I'm being very present. I'm giving you my best. I'm
making art out of this conversation. When you make art,
meaning I don't have an outcome I'm trying to achieve.
I'm trying to just put in the best input and
create something amazing and memorable that moves me and hopefully
(30:37):
moves you and hopefully moves the audience. I do the
same in my speeches, right? Even though I give the
same speech, but I try to create those moments where
it's also unique for me and the 1,000 people in
front of me. I want to create that moment where
I want them to feel that I am experiencing this
the first time. I'm telling the story that just happened
(30:58):
to me yesterday. So when I have that mindset, I
become fearless. I become like adaptable and happy and engaging
in any type of situation it's giving me. Whether it's
a bad situation, whether it's something that doesn't go my
way or something just goes smooth sailing.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
I'm always trying to create art. in that moment.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
And thank you for spending the last chunk of your
day with me, creating art.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
I love your work.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
And it's just been so great hearing you articulate some
of the concepts that I think are just really novel
ways of thinking about how we can approach the things.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
That we do. So thank you.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
So much for giving up some time while you are
in Las Vegas to chat to me.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
No, thank you for asking these questions. Like, you're the
first person who actually, you know, read my sub stack.
It's like, oh, he's trying to sell 10,000 copies. How
is that going?
Speaker 4 (31:50):
You're at $ 3, 000. So that's great, great material. I love it.
I love it. Because it's as real as it gets.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
You know, the dichotomy, the feeling, the raw feeling, the fear,
the pain, the success, the joy, it's all real. Thank
you for asking me those questions.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Jar's new book, Easy Discipline, is out now. And if
you enjoyed this episode, you might like to go back
into the archives to listen to my chat with Google's
executive productivity advisor, Laura May Martin, who goes deep into.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Some very practical strategies that she uses.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
To get more done in less time. There is a
link to that in the show notes. Thank you so
much for listening and I'll see you next time. If
you like today's show, make sure you hit follow on
your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop.
How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of
the Wurundjeri people, part of the Kulin Nation.
Jia Zhang told the world he'd sell 10,000 copies of
his new book in 100 days. He got to around 3,000.
And he has no regrets about this very public failure.
Jia is the man behind 100 Days of Rejection, which
was a YouTube experiment that became a TED Talk with
(00:23):
more than 10 million views. And his latest book is
called Easy Discipline. In this episode, you'll get to hear
His one action goal, which turns the outcome you can't
control into the daily input that you can. We will
also learn about his inspiration index, which are the two
(00:43):
numbers he tracks on every ambitious project. And he's going
to walk through the mover's manual, which is the way
he engineers an environment where he gets up to 10
times more done in a typical day. Welcome to How
(01:05):
I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and strategies for
optimizing your day.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I'm your host, Dr. Amantha Imber.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I want to start with a challenge you've put out
to the world because right now you're promoting easy discipline
and you have a very public challenge where you've said,
I am going to give myself 100 days to sell
10,000 copies of the book. And when I checked that yesterday,
and I believe your book is launching on maybe the
(01:38):
day that we are recording, which is the 21st of July.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Is that right? Is your book launching today?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
And when I checked your goal yesterday, you were 27.5%
of the way to your goal. So I want you
to explain why did you set such a massive goal
and why are you doing it so publicly? And how
did you land on day of publication?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Wow, Amanda, I did not think this would be the
first question to ask. I'm so glad. I'm so glad
because this is real.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
This is real. Actually, I just crossed 3,000. Well done.
Thank you. But I'm trying to make a last-minute push.
So I'll tell you why.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Because the whole idea in written easy-to-do plan, or just
my life, it's about turning an ambitious goal into a play,
into something that I can enjoy, into something that has
a beginning and end. I feel like a lot of
people have a long, ambitious goal that turns into life
goals and forever grinds. I don't believe that. I feel
(02:39):
like a project should have a beginning and end. And
I can extend it. I can do this again. However,
I need to have time container to be able to
for me to go all out and have the most
fun possible and try all kind of creative ideas trying
to achieve a certain goal. And in the end, my
biggest criteria is can I have the most fun?
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Can I have the most fun?
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Can I try everything that I thought was possible throughout
this process? And also, I believe setting an ambitious goal
versus not ambitious goal is hugely different. If I set
my ambition to be 3,000, which is really good. If
you pre-sell 3,000 books, you're doing awesome. But I feel
if I set to 3,000, I might land at 2,000
(03:24):
and feel pretty content. Feel like, okay, it's already better
than the vast majority of book launches. I think the
On average, pre-sales goes between, like by a big publisher,
traditionally publishing book, it's like 200 to 500 books. So
you can already achieve those goals, but by actually setting
a goal that's so ambitious, you kind of start having
(03:46):
to change your, elevate your way of thinking and try
different things, right? Now, I didn't get the number that
I set to be, right? But the number I got
to is really good compared to, Any normal type of ambition.
But also because of this, I get to try things
and see what works and what doesn't work. So I
(04:07):
had a great time. I had a great 100 days.
But part of me does feel like, oh, do I
have disappointment that it's not 7,000?
Speaker 4 (04:15):
It's not 12,000? It's not 25,000? Of course.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Because I set the goal to be extremely ambitious, right? So, yeah,
sometimes you set an ambitious goal, but the thing is
you have to separate that, right? You have to separate
the achieving of that goal versus the process of actually
trying to do it. So I think I really had
(04:36):
a good time in these 100 days. And I'd set
my life to be these 100-day sprints going forward. You know,
I've done 100 days of rejection therapy. That's what got
me famous, right? That's how you probably have heard of me.
100 days, when it's done, it's done. I had a
great time. I changed, I set up my whole career
and I love what I did. But that had a container, right?
(04:58):
And also have another container and have another container afterward.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Why then did you do it so publicly?
Speaker 1 (05:04):
And likewise, with your 100 days of rejection therapy, and
I would imagine that listeners that have come across your work,
it probably was there when you basically documented 100 days
of putting yourself in out doing some certainly ridiculous asks
that would make people just go, ah, how are you
(05:26):
doing that?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
So why do this in public?
Speaker 4 (05:29):
One, I don't take myself too seriously.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
And I feel like by putting me out there, I
think most people would rather do this privately because if
you fail, you don't feel the shame or embarrassment, right?
But because there's some risk of embarrassment and even shame,
it actually drives me forward. But also, I don't take
myself too seriously. So there's kind of a dichotomy, right?
(05:51):
There's a contradiction that's always involving something like this. But also,
there is a, I think it's a hidden force that
a lot of people don't want to use, which is
people want to hide their ambition and do it privately.
But for me to do it publicly, it creates a
type of accountability for me to keep going. Because when
day 40, right, when nothing happens, when I'm, I think
(06:13):
on day 40, I'm at 200.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Or something like that.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
And I'm like, oh my gosh, if I wouldn't do
this publicly, I'll be like, yeah, you know what? I mean,
go take a nap. Let me go take a trip.
But because I do this publicly, I got to keep
doing it. I cannot let up.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
How then do you reconcile the fact that you set
this huge goal.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Of 10,000 copies? You're at about 3,000 copies.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Do you reframe things or like, how do you get
comfortable rather than just go, oh my gosh, I'm so
disappointed in myself. I failed, which I'm getting the sense
is not how you're feeling.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
I would be lying to say, I don't have that
part of me. I'll be lying to say, you know,
I'm like, look at me.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
I'm awesome.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Three thousand. You try to sell three thousand pre-orders. There's
part of me just like that. But there's other part
of me is like, man, I wish I've achieved that goal.
To me, how do I reconcile is I wrote a
great story. I set up an amazing goal and I
live a great story. Whether or not I got that goal,
I think it matters. I'd be lying if I said
it doesn't matter. But what matters most is I wrote
(07:16):
a great story. And I see life... Sometimes people think
about life as a series of transactions. You know, a
series of transactions and goals. You achieve them and stuff.
I see life as moments of highlights, of struggle, of ambition,
of journey. Because I feel... Because to me, the gap
(07:39):
between where I said I was going to do to
what I did is huge. And it's all really artificial.
That in itself is crazy. And that in itself will
leave a long impact in my whole life. Do I
rather be over 10,000? Of course I do. But the
fact that I set that crazy goal and I achieved
a portion of it, which is impressive on its own,
(08:02):
that's a great story in my own mind. In the end,
in my last days of my life, whether I face
judgment or whatever that is, I'm not going to be like, damn,
I'm 7,000 short on my goal. I would not feel that.
And I would feel like I had a great journey.
I would tell my kids, you see your dad? I
(08:22):
set this crazy goal.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
I went nuts. And I achieved part of it and
had a great time.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
And I'd rather fail my ambition publicly than letting it
die inside privately.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
I love that. And I mean, what a great example
for your kids as well. I want to move in.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
I'm not going to answer this question, by the way.
I've Just sometimes, like, I think about this every day, Amanda.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
I do. I think about this every day.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
And I'm so glad you're so real with me to
ask this question because it's raw.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
It's real.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I can imagine.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
And literally, I've been on the journey. So I've launched
my fifth book here in Australia. Literally two weeks ago
was pub day. So when I was reading your sub stack,
I was like, oh, yeah, I'm feeling that.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I'm feeling that a lot.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Congratulations, Amanda, by the way.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
I want to get into some of the strategies in
Easy Discipline.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
I love the book and I feel like there was
some really novel ways of looking at how can we
change our behavior for the better. And I want to
start with the one action goal, which I feel like
is pretty core to your system. So can you explain
what is a one action goal and also what is
it not?
Speaker 3 (09:36):
One action goal is a way for me to achieve ambitions.
As simple as that. I grew up in China. I
came to the United States as a teenager. I spent
most of my time here. But in China, I learned
a word. It's called the high eyes, low hands disease.
It means you have a high goal, but then your
hands are low.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Your eyes are high. Your hands are low.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
You're not achieving that those goals so if you see
in america here about less than half of people who
said new year's resolutions you want to lose weight you
want to make a lot of money you want to
start a podcast you want to publish a book right
but by the end of the year only nine percent
of people who actually make new resolution keep them so
(10:18):
that means you People are setting their dopamine. People are
setting their satisfaction when they are setting the goal. But
they don't like the journey. They don't know how to
get there. Very quick, when you don't like the journey
and you just like the result, very quickly, that's how
by the second weekend you.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Give up your goal.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
So one action goal does the opposite of that. It
takes a very big ambition into an.
Speaker 4 (10:48):
Action goal.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Meaning instead of saying, I want to lose weight, your
goal is, I want to exercise, I'll say, for example,
I want to exercise 100 hours in the next three months,
something like that, right? You started setting your input as
a goal, and then you track that. Now, also, you
do one thing, because you're tracking that just for one thing.
(11:10):
When you do that, it turns complex ambition into a
thing that you can 100% control. You cannot control everything.
you make a million dollars. You cannot control your fine love.
You cannot control you get promoted this quarter. It's not
out of your control, but you can 100% control what
you do, right? You take the time to exercise. You
(11:30):
sometimes even get promoted, right, if you're.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
In the workplace.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
To get promoted, maybe in the next 300 days, you
want to have 100 amazing conversations with your team members,
with other stakeholders within your company, with other industry leaders,
with the leader of your company, and to vastly expand
your network. to elevate your way of thinking. You can
focus on this input, action goals.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
That's one thing, right? You have a timeframe. In my time,
it's usually 100 days.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
I found this an amazing time to do something extremely ambitious,
but also you get burned out, right?
Speaker 4 (12:03):
After 100 days, you rest. Like when I'm done, I rest.
I'm good.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
You set up a goal for taking the action and
that result usually takes over itself.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
So I'm wondering how important is it to, like you have,
build in like failure into the system? I'm sort of
wondering how this relates to the sell a thousand copies
of the book goal.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Sorry, 10,000.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Yeah. So I always make these goals cumulative, meaning that
If I don't do anything today, I'm going to be like,
this is it. I mean, you know, look at me.
I'm a bum and it's over. And I can do
a little bit more. I can do it tomorrow. I
can do a little bit more tomorrow. So let's say
my goal is I want to talk, have 100 meaningful
conversations in the next 100 days, right? Over the weekend,
(12:57):
sometimes I, you know, take the weekend off.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
That's fine.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
If on Monday I talk to two people, you know,
and the next day and maybe one day I set
up like a morning meeting. And I've talked to more people, right?
So this way, I achieve a cumulative result. I don't
have to be like, I have to do 100 days
straight of talking to people because I feel like when
I do that, if I fail one day, I feel
such a failure, right? So go back to the 10,000 copies.
(13:23):
The 10,000 copies, that's the outcome I want to do, right?
People seems like I focus on that, but there's actually
deep down, there's one action goals involved. That involving, for example,
for me to drive to ride every day, for me
to ride to reach out to people every day, to
try different works, you know, to try different ways, right?
I reach out to do get this done. I try
(13:45):
all kinds of things. I try to play poker using
Easy Discipline. And I attended the World Series of Poker.
I play using Easy Discipline to do that. And I
try to do corporate outreaches, you know, to see if
I can have corporate bulk buys. And I try to
write emails to my audience. And also, I tried all
kinds of things, right? These are my.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
Input goals I want to do.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
So the outcome is what people say, but it's not my,
when I focus every day though, I have my own
input goal to achieve in order to get to the outcome.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Okay, so that's probably a good segue into, I think
you call it the inspiration index.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
With the two critical numbers.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So can you talk about like these two numbers, which
I guess you've alluded to, and why do we need both?
10,000 copies?
Speaker 3 (14:32):
That's one half of the inspiration. So inspiration index has
two numbers, right? One number is the outcome you want
to achieve, right? That's the thing that we write on
our new resolutions. That's the thing that gave us the
dopamine when we declared them, but we have no way
to achieve, right? That's the number that is almost like
a beacon on top of the mountain, right? It shines
at you. You know where you're going. The other half
(14:53):
of inspiration index is your one action goal. It's what
you put in. It's the conversations you have. It's the
outreaches you make. It's the number of emails you write.
It's the time of the day you spend. That's the
other half of inspiration index. In the world, I see
a lot of people, like I see a lot of
really successful companies actually, they don't know this, but they
(15:16):
subconsciously do this, right? So they set up a, okay,
you have a quarterly revenue. They have a quarterly revenue goal,
but their input is, all right, everyone, every day you
make 100 phone calls or something like that. So you
have both the outcome that you cannot control, but it's
inspiring you, but also you have the input that you
can control that's guiding you. So if the outcome goal
(15:38):
is like the beacon on a mountain, your input goal
is your compass or all-trail map where you just track
your steps.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
That's how you get there.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
So for the 100 days to sell 10,000 copies, what
was your input goal? number that you were using for
that challenge?
Speaker 3 (15:57):
That input number actually changes every, I turned this into
14 moonshots, like 14 things I tried. Some of them
actually got me a really pretty good return. And some
of them got nothing. Like I did a lot of moonshots.
As I mentioned, I played poker. I tried to use
easy discipline to train my kids tennis. And I tried
all kinds of crazy things. Some of them didn't get anywhere,
(16:19):
but I spent a week, you know, if it went somewhere, cool.
It might generate some buzz. It might become some sort
of book sale. But the thing that actually worked really
bring me tons of results is actually, it's boring, but
it's actually tried and true corporate book purchases.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
Right.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
I've had a lot of organizations to be like they
would love to be on my wall. So I set
up a public wall to say if you're actually buying
my book, you get on the wall. So the most
vast majority of the copies actually from people who run
organizations like, OK, I'll buy 100 copies for my people.
You know, that's awesome. You can come and, you know,
how about you come you hop on a Zoom and
say hi. Some people just want their name, their organization's
(16:57):
name to be on this wall. So that became like,
you know, after halfway, we figure out, OK, that's the
thing we should go. So we start focusing on that.
We're talking about a big ambitious goals, right? There are
some near misses that if I actually hit, that could
actually get to me that number.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Coming up next, Ja tells me about the letter he
wrote to Stephen Bartlett pitching himself for Diary of a
CEO and why he posted it publicly even after they
said no. Ja also explains what he calls reverse AI,
which is where he trains himself the exact same way
we train our AI models. If you're looking for more
(17:41):
tips to improve the way you work and live, I
write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered
that have helped me personally.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
You can sign up for that at amantha.com. That's amantha.com.
I saw, I think this was on your sub stack.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
You published a outreach letter that you sent to Stephen
Bartlett to get on diary of the CEO.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Tell me, have you heard from him? And also why
did you publish it publicly?
Speaker 3 (18:11):
First of all, they saw the letter. They're really thankful. And,
but they're, they're like, we're, we're full, but also it's easy, right?
I did my best. Sometimes you can't, you cannot control
the outcome. And this is a classic example, right? Is
the story better to say?
Speaker 4 (18:23):
Yeah. They said no, but I read an amazing letter.
They got me. Yes. Yes, absolutely. But throughout my life,
I've been able to do this.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
You know, just when I take someone reject me, I
see that as an opportunity for me to actually write something,
to make an art, right? I see that letter itself
as my way of generating an art. You know, I
want to see how's my writing chops. You know, can
I actually write a letter that actually touched me? I
learned this from the author. His name is Jiang Chu.
He made his name by directing this movie called Crazy
(18:51):
Rich Asians. And it is a really amazing movie and
he became very famous afterward. He just directed Wicked, right?
He was the director.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
But he wanted to use the song Yellow at the
end of his movie. Coppola didn't know.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Coppola is like, we don't want our song to turn
into a slur because it's about, it's a movie about Asians.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
You have a word yellow. That's not, he didn't like it, right?
Speaker 3 (19:19):
But, you know, John True, he wrote an amazing letter afterward.
He's like, for all my life, right? This word yellow
has a very complicated relationship to me. That's a number
that can describe what I look like, what my race,
but also it could become a slur. But when I
hear your song, it's the first time in my life
(19:39):
I felt the word yellow can be so beautiful, so poetic.
And if I can use your song, and um we'll
write our own lyrics right but if you can use
your song it will mean the world to me and
right so when they get the letter right away they
say yes you know they're like oh cool i didn't
write that kind of letter to steven bartlett but i
think i was actually pretty so they when i wrote
(20:00):
to them they right away they got back to me
they're like thank you so much this is actually really
touching but we're gonna keep our options open and and
so maybe sometimes in the future right And I would think,
you know, one of these days I'll be on there.
Sometimes we think we do something that's right now. But
also it's like planting a tree, planting an idea. I
have a lot of times where I tried something like
(20:21):
a few years ago.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
It didn't happen.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
But a few years later, because of what I tried,
they remember me. They come back to me and it happens.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Because of your 100 days of rejection therapy, how do you...
Look at rejection now that is probably really different from
other people that haven't gone through rejection therapy.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
100%.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
So I see rejection as an opportunity for me to
make some sort of art, you know, to perform in
a way that actually touches me. As I mentioned, that
letter was a manifestation of that when I get rejected, right?
And when I get rejected, I'd rather take the step
to be bold to ask again. rather than just say,
just take it, right? And when I do it in
(21:03):
a way that actually has a lot of skills to it, where,
you know, I would say, I'll give people off ramp.
I wouldn't want to just corner people to say, you
have to do this, right? But I'll give people off
ramp so they have the choice to say no to me.
There are so many things you can do after rejection
that you can ask again, you can ask the same
person again, ask a different person, you can ask a
(21:24):
different way, ask a different time, You can do all
kinds of different things, but most people will just quit
after rejection because it feels uncomfortable.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
It feels definitive.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
But to me, that's actually rejection is the opportunity for
you to actually give another shot that could be like,
you know, a different way. But also, you know, a
lot of times I make it artistic because when you
are already rejected, you have nothing to lose. When you
have nothing to lose, you have nothing to fear.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
So when you're, say, writing that letter to Stephen Bartlett,
what is going through your your head? Because like, I
imagine the average person thinking, oh, I'm going to pitch
myself to Diary of a CEO, biggest podcast in the universe.
Oh no, he'll probably say, no, I'm not even going
to bother. I imagine that that is probably how a
lot of people think. So tell me what is going
(22:11):
through your brain when you're making the decision to write
the letter and actually writing it and sending it?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Yeah. I don't know if that's going to have an effect.
I kind of don't care in a way, Because I'm
already rejected. I already got a no. It's almost like
a free roll. I play poker again. It's like a
free roll. There's no downside. But this time it's all upside.
The upside is not just about the result. He might
(22:37):
consider and give me a yes. There's that upside. But
the other upside is, oh, this gives me an opportunity
to actually write a great letter, to have a closure
with this thing I care about. Sometimes people don't have closures.
They think they tried something that didn't work, and later
on it's like, maybe I should try it, right? But
to me, I want to have a beautiful closure. You know,
(22:58):
even that result is no. I will let myself know
in the future that I gave my best shot. And
not just the best, I gave my beautiful shot. And
that shot is who I am, right? It's an expression
of my inner feelings and my relationship with that show.
And when I close it, and I felt, one, no regret,
but also true happiness. You know, true happiness of me.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
I see how I see myself, right?
Speaker 3 (23:22):
The courage, the willingness to have fun, the willingness to
make art, even in face of rejection. That's a self-reinforcing
identity I tell myself that made me stronger.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
I want to move on to talking about the Movers Manual.
Can you tell me what this is all about?
Speaker 3 (23:39):
I have a feeling that you might ask this because
this is really, we're talking about work, right? This is
actually how I do work. So, A lot of times
for us to be our best, our environment is as
crucial as our willpower. Probably more important than our willpower
than what we try to do. So there are ways
we can do to shape our everyday environment so we
(24:01):
are our best. I have my phone, you know, Steve
Jobs invented it. I mean, he came up with the
iPhone 20 years ago. I think he could not imagine
by now people are using this for doom scrolling and,
you know, social media for a lot of bad stuff,
you know, mental health issues, right? So this thing I
use to work, my computer, they become a source of
distraction for me. News notifications and all that, social media.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
But also I write. How can I focus? So I
created a micro environment. I'm going to move.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I'm not moving to a different place. It's not like
I'm going to Australia. That's going to be any better
because you also have internet there, right? So I'd be like, okay,
how can I move to a place that has no internet?
I mean, I can't take my family with me. But
what if I drive every day to a place where
there's no internet and just write? I don't bring my
phone with me. So now there's no Wi-Fi. There's no data.
(24:51):
And I just, my computer, that's kind of a brick
to become, not connected, that becomes the most beautiful typewriter
in the world. And then I write in my car.
I park at a beach and I just me seeing
the beautiful ocean and write. When I do that, when
I have no distraction, my productivity just shoot up. And
I can do something like three to four, maybe five,
(25:14):
10 times the work I get done in one afternoon
than I did with distraction. I'm able to achieve this
type of deep work. So that's what I call mover's manual, right?
You can move to a place where you're better at working, right?
There are other part of this that you can actually
clean your environment at home, right? To make it more organized,
to make it more inspiring to help you to the
(25:36):
better work. Also, you can actually clear your schedule, right?
Instead of having a meeting every day, what if on
your schedule, you have two days out of the week that.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
Has no meeting.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
So for you just to do deep work. So you
can also do scheduling, right? So that, in a sense,
that's a mover's manual. You can do so many things
to better your environment for you to be more creative
and productive.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I want to ask about reverse AI, where you've talked
about your approach to training yourself in the way that
AI models are trained.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Can you explain what you mean by this?
Speaker 3 (26:13):
How AI is trained is because it's getting fed so
much data, so much training material. It's able to train
with all this type of material from all kinds of
things in life. It seems to know everything about anything,
but also it's able to make connections of things that
are in the vast knowledge base it has, right? It's
(26:34):
really fascinating because we are almost trained in the way
AI is.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
The more we read, the more.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Broad we are, the better we are sometimes to find
creative angles for something in particular. It's like what Steve
Jobs said, right? In his famous speech, he's talking about
connecting the dots. He connected dots when he was learning calligraphy.
Later on, he's able to use his training to write
calligraphy into designing the Macintosh user interface. It's those things
(27:03):
that connect together. If he didn't learn calligraphy, he wouldn't
be able to design that user interface. There might not
be a Macintosh, or it is a very different way.
So the best people who actually create solutions that no
one can think of are usually the generalists. So David Epstein,
he wrote this famous book called The Range. I really
love that book, talking about generalists, how they're connecting dots.
(27:26):
That's exactly how what AI does when it was general training.
It gave me an idea of doing reverse AI on myself,
meaning let me read on different subject matters, right? Let
me listen to interviews, right? Of course, by Amanda and
of course, by Diary of a CEO, but also listen
to things that are about history. And then listen to
things about politics. Not the modern politics that's kind of nasty,
(27:49):
but ancient politics. Let me read things on art. And
then the book itself, Easy Discipline, is about 12 different
stories where I connected the dots from all stories in
history and how they're able to tell you that easy discipline. Actually,
the best way to have discipline is to have passion.
(28:09):
Me writing the book is an example of reverse AI
where I used AI training on machine. I use that
to train myself to be able to produce this book.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Now, you're in Las Vegas at the moment.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
I'm imagining you're in Vegas not to gamble, but to
give a keynote speech is my guess.
Speaker 4 (28:26):
Yes, I am.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yes, I am.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
I have an event tomorrow morning. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Tell me, the final thing I want to ask is
that I've read that you think about these speeches and often,
you know, for those that give presentations, it's often repeating
the same thing. again and again, kind of like actors
have to do in a show. And tell me how
you think of a speech in terms of being like
a one-time artwork.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
So over my career, I've made, I think probably around
500 different speeches. But I mean, when it comes to
when I started, right, that, you know, probably over 500,
I've had over 400 paid speeches, right? So I do
this for a living. Now, it can get pretty repetitive
because I'm telling a story, right? It's almost like singing
(29:09):
the same song, but 45 minutes long. Now, if you
think about that, you start losing passion, right? You just
start performing the same song. What I try to have
is this idea is from Japanese tea ceremony. So if
you have been to Japan, if you haven't done a
Japanese tea ceremony, I highly recommend it. Or if you
haven't been to Japan, I highly recommend Japan too. But
(29:31):
Japanese tea ceremony, they have this idea, it's called Ichigo Ichie,
meaning you sit there, right, and the host will make
tea for you and talk to you and that person
is very present with you she's giving you even though
she's done that same thing like probably thousands of times
but every time she's doing it for you it's almost
like she's doing that the first time and she's giving
(29:53):
you her best and you feel it you feel that
type of connection within environment with her and Ichigo Ichie
literally translates into one meeting, one time only. So even
though we're meeting right now, I'm treating this as the
only time we would meet in our lives. Even though
(30:13):
we might meet again in the future, we can never
replicate this moment we have. So by having that moment,
I'm being very present. I'm giving you my best. I'm
making art out of this conversation. When you make art,
meaning I don't have an outcome I'm trying to achieve.
I'm trying to just put in the best input and
create something amazing and memorable that moves me and hopefully
(30:37):
moves you and hopefully moves the audience. I do the
same in my speeches, right? Even though I give the
same speech, but I try to create those moments where
it's also unique for me and the 1,000 people in
front of me. I want to create that moment where
I want them to feel that I am experiencing this
the first time. I'm telling the story that just happened
(30:58):
to me yesterday. So when I have that mindset, I
become fearless. I become like adaptable and happy and engaging
in any type of situation it's giving me. Whether it's
a bad situation, whether it's something that doesn't go my
way or something just goes smooth sailing.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
I'm always trying to create art. in that moment.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
And thank you for spending the last chunk of your
day with me, creating art.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
I love your work.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
And it's just been so great hearing you articulate some
of the concepts that I think are just really novel
ways of thinking about how we can approach the things.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
That we do. So thank you.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
So much for giving up some time while you are
in Las Vegas to chat to me.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
No, thank you for asking these questions. Like, you're the
first person who actually, you know, read my sub stack.
It's like, oh, he's trying to sell 10,000 copies. How
is that going?
Speaker 4 (31:50):
You're at $ 3, 000. So that's great, great material. I love it.
I love it. Because it's as real as it gets.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
You know, the dichotomy, the feeling, the raw feeling, the fear,
the pain, the success, the joy, it's all real. Thank
you for asking me those questions.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Jar's new book, Easy Discipline, is out now. And if
you enjoyed this episode, you might like to go back
into the archives to listen to my chat with Google's
executive productivity advisor, Laura May Martin, who goes deep into.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Some very practical strategies that she uses.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
To get more done in less time. There is a
link to that in the show notes. Thank you so
much for listening and I'll see you next time. If
you like today's show, make sure you hit follow on
your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop.
How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of
the Wurundjeri people, part of the Kulin Nation.
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