July 8, 2026 • 40 mins
** Grab tickets for The Energy Game Melbourne launch (29 July, 6:30pm) here and order The Energy Game book here.**
What does it take to realise you've hit burnout? For me, it wasn't a dramatic collapse. It was a fantasy about being hospitalised just so no one could contact me, and the hardest decision I'd face would be lime or raspberry jelly.
When I shared that thought with a friend who is also a clinical psychologist, she told me she'd heard it so many times she had a name for it. That moment of recognition, equal parts relief and horror, was the beginning of understanding just how depleted I had become.
This is part one of a two-part crossover with the This Is Work podcast, hosted by Shelley Johnson. Shelley asked me all about my year of burnout, the early warning signs I missed, and what I found when I went looking for a way out that didn't require completely overhauling my life. We also get into The Energy Game, my new book, and the framework behind it, including the four energy types, the three energy accounts, and why the phrase "I'm tired" is actually making it harder to solve the problem.
Shelley and I discuss:
- The "getting hit by a bus" fantasy: what it signals about how depleted you really are, and why a clinical psychologist says she hears this constantly in private practice
- The three early warning signs of burnout that I missed for months, covering the physical, mental, and emotional dimensions
- The push through paradox: why working 60 or 70 hours a week can make you progressively less productive until everything goes on strike
- Why the four energy types (achievement addict, over-committer, perfectionist, and people pleaser) are seasonal, not fixed, and what it means when you take any of them to the extreme
- Why thinking of energy as one big concept makes burnout harder to solve, and how splitting it into three separate accounts (physical, mental, emotional) gives you somewhere to actually start
- The minimum viable dose philosophy behind The Energy Game, and why the 53 challenges in the book were designed for people who are too exhausted for anything that takes real effort
Key quotes
"When you're in the depths of exhaustion, that advice just doesn't cut it."
"Clarity is always the first step to problem-solving."
Connect with Shelley via LinkedIn, or through Boldside’s Instagram and website. For more conversations on
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today's episode is a little bit different because it's a
crossover with the podcast. This is Work with the absolutely
awesome Shelley Johnson. In this chat, Shelley asks me all
about my year of burnout, how to identify the early
signs of burnout, and also how to avoid getting into
the situation that I did where it took me fantasizing
(00:22):
about going to hospital for me to realize that I
might have a problem. And by the way, if you
happen to be in Melbourne, then I would love for
you to join me at the Melbourne book launch of
The Energy Game, which is happening on July twenty nine
at the malt House Theater. There are still a few
seats available and there is a link to book a
(00:43):
seat in the show notes, there's going to be a
very fun night. Not only will you learn a lot
about your own energy, but you will come out with
a plan to significantly boost your energy in the next
seven days. And there might also be some song and dance.
(01:05):
Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals
and strategies for optimizing your date. I'm your host, doctor
Amantha Imba.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
I want to know how are your energy levels.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Are you feeling really energized, are you're feeling a bit
flat or fatigued? If you want to build more energy, well,
today's podcast is for you. I'm joined by my good friend,
doctor Amantha Imba. She's an organizational psychologist and the founder
of Inventium, and today on the show, we're talking about
her latest book, The Energy Game, and this episode is
(01:38):
so timely. She talks about the energy crisis, where people
are more exhausted than ever and they need the practical
tools to rebuild their energy. And this conversation we've separated
into part one and part two. The first part is
all about the problem with energy right now, why we're
so tired, and what we can do about it. Is
(02:00):
all about how you rebuild your energy using practical small
challenges that you can implement straight away. And okay, this
is jam packed with practical tools. You were gonna love it.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
Let's go.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
So, one thing I quickly learned about you and common
trait we share is with both anti small talk.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So we're going to dive.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Straight in and you've just released your new book, The
Energy Game, so we're going to talk about that today.
But one of the key parts that really surprised me
in your story, was you talk about fantasizing about being hospitalized?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Can you unpack that for us?
Speaker 1 (02:41):
I think about twenty twenty four as my year of burnout,
and it really came to a head in the middle
of the year. It was June twenty twenty four and
I was walking with a friend of mine who happens
to be a clinical psychologist, which I think is a
really handy trait in a friend.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
And her name's Savine, and we went for a walk and.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I said to her, I've been having this really crazy
kind of thought going around in my head and can
I share it with you? And I always hesitate to
use the word crazy as a psychologist, I don't think
that that is in our code of ethics to talk
about being crazy thoughts. Anyway, I said to her, I
am having this fantasy that.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
I wish I would get really, really.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Sick, and it would be sick enough to send me
to hospital for about a week. And I'd go to
hospital and nobody could contact me. I would have none
of my devices with me. People would send me sympathy
cards and there would be flowers and there would be peace,
and people would cook my beautiful hospital meals, and like,
(03:47):
literally the hardest thing I would have to do is
decide do I want lime jelly or do I want
raspberry jelly?
Speaker 4 (03:54):
And then after a week.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
I would just emerge out of hospital completely recovered and rested,
and on I would go with my life. And I
said to Sabina, am I just going out of my mind?
And she said, I have heard variations of that story
so many times in my private practice that I have
(04:17):
a name for it. I call it the getting hit
by a bus or by a bus or a car fantasy.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
And when she.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Told me that, I remember feeling firstly relieved that I
wasn't alone, but then also at the same time quite
horrified that there were other people that were having this
same really awful experience that I was having, where essentially
I had burnt out.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
So what did she like, when you think about, Okay,
I'm fantasizing about going to hospitals so I can rest,
what was going on for you that made that feel
like this is the only option?
Speaker 1 (04:57):
So it had been a really hard year With in ventim.
I run a company called Inventium. We run a lot
of corporate training programs around productivity, well being, innovation, and
a lot around AI as well. And I hadn't run
the business for many years. I'd had a CEO, and
that CEO had left at the end of twenty twenty three,
(05:20):
and I had made the decision to find a new CEO,
And while I was trying to find that person, I
just jumped back into that role.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
And it was I didn't feel like I had a choice.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
So I don't want to say it was a bad decision,
but that decision just nearly killed me. I was walking
into a culture that that was a hard.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
One to walk back into.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
I was leading people that I don't think wanted me
as their leader, which made it incredibly lonely. And at
that point in time, in sort of twenty twenty three
and twenty twenty four, it was a pretty hard time
for professional services business and certainly corporate training businesses. A
lot of budgets were being cut and so sales like
(06:16):
we were work having to work three times as hard
to get a fraction of the sales that we were
used to and that I had to get in order
to pay for operating expenses and people's salaries.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
So a lot of it was really about work stress.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
And so it's really interesting to me when you look
back and in hindsight we see, oh wow, there were
like all these early warning signs that I ignored or missed.
What were some of the early warning signs As you
look back now and you're like, gee, I should have
noticed that sooner.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
What are some of those for you? Manta?
Speaker 4 (06:53):
There were definitely physical warning signs.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
So I am someone that has done strength training for
for many years, four times a week, I'm pretty got
a pretty strict routine, and I remember in twenty twenty four,
like I'm used to being able to push myself harder
and get new personal bests, and in twenty twenty four, I,
like almost every workout, i'd be like, I don't really
(07:19):
feel like I can push myself today. I'll just go
a bit easy on myself. And I kept saying that
and thinking, next week, I'll be fine. Next week, I'll
be back to really pushing myself hard until like next
week becomes six months down the track, and I've gone
significantly backwards in my routine, which might sound kind of trivial.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
And at the time I didn't think too much of it, but.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Like when you've been doing that for several months on end,
I'm like, what is going on in my body that
I can no longer push it. I'm just physically so depleted. Mentally,
things will also not great. Part of my morning routine
is that I'll do an hour or two of deep
work and I'll really significant progress on the things that
(08:03):
matter most to me, the things that are driving you know,
the business forward, my own goals forward. And I found
that those mornings just became distraction central, Like I I
was looking for that dopamine hit by checking my email
fifty times before ten am, and I was just letting
other people's priorities become my own.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
And having written books on.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Productivity and that's a large part of what we do,
would invent him helping people be more productive. Like I
felt like the plumber with the blocked pipes, Like I
felt like such a hypocrite, and I felt so much shame.
I'm like, why isn't my brain working properly? Why am
I just giving into all these digital distractions that I
tell our clients, no, stop it, don't do that.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
That's not how we work.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
So that was the mental side of things, And then emotionally,
I would like to think I'm someone that's quite resilient.
And I think as a business owner, as you know,
like it gotta be bloody rezili to run a business
so any period of time. But I found myself just
like crying at the drop of a hat. There were
(09:09):
so many meetings that I had with team members where
you know, there'd be tension, there'd be disagreements, and I
would leave the meeting from the comfort of my home
office because we're a remote first team, and I just
burst into tears. And it got to the point where
just crying at my desk became a daily activity, and
(09:31):
it all kind of creeps up on you slowly until
you suddenly stop and go, this isn't how life should be.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
So there's so many things that I want to draw
on in what you've just said, and I'm trying to
work out where's the best place to go.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Can I decide just this.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Is pure curiosity because it surprised me hearing you say that.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I've the three categories.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
The physical so you're noticed in your body not being
able to push yourself at the gym, then the second
one of the mental side of it, looking for the
dopamine hits, and then the third one around the emotional
started just crying on the drop of hat would you
normally say you're a crier?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Like, do you cry easily?
Speaker 3 (10:09):
No, I'm really surprised because to me, I'm like, I
wouldn't have pegged you as.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
A crier, Like I'm not. I'm not so with I
mean just thinking.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
About these little signs, little signs and some of the
bigger ones.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
And then I want to draw on this one really.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Important thing and where you say I felt like a
hypocrite because part of me wonders for you. Was that
also what caused you to keep pushing through because you're like,
I know better, I should know better. I'm the person
that talks about productivity and efficiency and you've written a
(10:45):
time wise and health habit And.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Did that stop you.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
From being able to open up about it.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
I'm just curious, I think in terms of opening up
with my team about it, because really, like things were
gravy in my personal life. It was all very contained
to work, which for some people's experience of burnout is
very normal, others it's in all the domains of life.
(11:15):
Mine was very much driven by what was going on
in the work environment, and it wasn't I mean, I
never liked feeling like a hypocrite. But the reason why
I just kept pushing forward is because I didn't think
I had a choice. Like in Ventium as a business,
we've been around for nineteen years, and for every one
(11:37):
of the years leading up to year seventeen, which was
the year when all this happened, like we'd been profitable.
We never had a financial year where we had made
a loss or we had been running at a loss,
and in this particular financial year, we were running at
quite a significant loss where I was having to go
(11:58):
into my savings account to pay people salaries every second Thursday,
and that was not an experience I was used.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
To doing it.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
I know that makes me very fortunate as a business owner,
because I know that cash flow is, like, you know,
a really big issue for most business owners. But because
of the financial position of the company, I'm like, I
don't have a choice.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
I really need a break.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Right now, but it is not an option because I've
got salaries to pay. I yes, I could retrench people
because we didn't have the sales and the income to
support the team size that we had and the different
roles that we had.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
But look in that first part of the year.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I remember I had so many sleepless nights where I'd
just be like, what am I going to do?
Speaker 4 (12:48):
What am I going to do? I just have to
work harder. I just have to get more sales.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I can't let people go, like a lot of the
team I'd worked with for many, many years. And you know,
and I think this was part of the exhaustion because
I couldn't see clearly like if I hadn't been so exhausted,
I would have made some really big decisions earlier on
in that year that would have just circumvented a lot
(13:12):
of the pain that I was living with in twenty
twenty four around the health of the business.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
And so it just it just prompted me when you
describe that of I didn't have a choice and feeling
like I didn't have a choice you talk about in.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
The book the push through fallacy.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Can you talk to me about that, because I think
a lot of people listening will really I mean, that
part for me hit really hard, Like I was like, oh, like,
I just love you to unpack what you mean by that.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Yeah, So the push through paradox is where we you know,
initially we can see a lot of work ahead of
us and we're working really hard and we've got the
energy and we're kicking goals and we're like, I just
did a sixty hour a week and I achieved so
much and I can totally do this, and it kind
of a quite addictives.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
So we keep doing more.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
But then the like we get diminishing returns because you
just cannot sustain that kind.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
Of output at work.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
And I'd keep working really hard because I was getting
those addictive highs. But then the more I did that,
the less productive I was during the sixty or seventy
hours that I was working every week, which then means
I have to work even harder to get the same
kind of output. And then eventually your mind and you
(14:36):
like your brain, your body, your emotions, that everything just
like goes on strike and they're like, okay, we're done,
Like we just can't push through any more.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
And that is how I got to burn out.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
So told me, because there is so much gold in
this book, and I would say anyone who wants to
be a high perform in the long run needs to
read this book because this is about how you sustain
your energy in the long run. For I think optimal
optimal performance talk to us about where this came from,
(15:11):
because I imagine you hit burnout, you had a really
really tough year by all accounts, then you then you
is this where the.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Idea sparked from?
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Like tell us about where the Energy Game originated from.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
I mean, I think with all the books that I write,
they're trying to solve a problem for me, and this
one because I think, like everything I was reading about
how could I get out of this energy hole that
I was in, it just required so much energy to
(15:49):
actually do. Like I'm not going to meditate for an
hour every night. I'm not going to get up of
an hour earlier to you know, exercise and get all
the endorphins flowing, you know. I like all the things
that you kind of go, well, you should do that,
they just felt really unachievable. And also there were really
big decisions that I needed to make with the business,
(16:11):
and I just didn't have the energy to make those
big decisions. And so I thought, Okay, I need to
start small. And The Energy Game is written for someone
that is just they're tired of being tired, or at
worst they're close to burnout or they've burnt out, and
they're like just completely and utterly exhausted. And when you're
(16:32):
in that state, like you don't want to be told, well,
all you need to do is you just need to
sleep eight hours and you just need to eat better
and cut out all highly processed foods.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Actually, you just do.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Sugar free from now on.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
It's like, actually, the only thing that's making me function
is the ridiculous amount of chocolate that I've eaten.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
You can just stop talking right now. But sleepless people,
they have these like really grandiose ideas.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah, yeah, it's just like, okay, so just stop drinking
your coffee and cut out the chocolate and don't drink
wine at night to wind down.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
No one, no one's going to do that.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Like when you're in the depths of exhaustion, that advice
just doesn't cut it. So what I wanted to find
in the energy game? And when I was doing you know, research,
as you know as tend to call it, Yes, I'm
like what I need to find because, like as I
was saying to you before when we were catching up,
(17:26):
I think the idea of having a book that has
science backed strategies has been democratized thanks to AI. Thanks
to the many search engines that you know, are filled
with all the academic journals, Like that's anyone can do that.
But what took so much time? When I was reading
through a calculated over a thousand journal articles for The
(17:50):
Energy Game, and there is quite a long reference list
in the book, and I wanted to find what I
think of as the minimum viable dose or MVD. So
what is the absolute minimum of this thing that will
get me more energy? This intervention that will energize me
or help me truly recharge, or get better at setting
(18:10):
boundaries so that my energy doesn't just leak out of me,
that will have an immediate effect. And so most of
the I think it's fifty three challenges or strategies in
the book take less than about five minutes to do,
and the impact is there because science Everything is science
backed in the book. So yeah, I'm all about, like,
(18:33):
how do I make this easy for me? And how
do I make it easy for readers that are reading
The Energy Game?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
One thing that I really loved.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
There's so many things so I loved about a book,
and anyone who can see the book on the table,
it's like, really it looks really grubty because I'm like, dog, like,
what do you call it Like, I've like holded all
the pages that I like and like it's super super practical,
But that minimum Bible dose concept. Having gone through like
a pretty significant burnout myself in twenty eighteen, I had
(19:11):
to have three months off work and I remember like
I could not get out, I could not get out
of bed. I was like I ended up, Like the
fatigue symptoms were so strong. I described it to people
as having the flu every day. It was like you
know when you feel it in your limbs, in your body,
and you're like, I can't get up.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
And so when people.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Sprout off these ideas of like cold plunge every day
at five am, I'm like, well, you can shut up
right now, because that's not happening. Like when you're when
you're exhausted or fatigued, or you're going through burnout or
you're close to burnout, there's no way you can do
that stuff. And one of the things that I think
is really really helpful in your book is every strategy
(19:52):
is small and practical and has an initial like an
instant uplift like I found like testing and we'll go
into in the next conversation. We have what those practical
strategies are because people are really going to benefit from those.
I think that when it comes to your energy levels
(20:13):
and wanting, we often gravitate towards the transformation over the
quick winds or the little tiny changes.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Why do you think that is?
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Because you know how we're looking for I've got to
transform my whole life, when really it's the small little
steps that stuck up.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Has that been your experience.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
One hundred percent?
Speaker 1 (20:31):
And ultimately that's all that feels achievable because when you
are so exhausted, you literally can't overhaul your life. And
maybe you might try to on Monday, but then you're
probably failing by Tuesday or Wednesday and feeling really bad
about yourself.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
And no one wants that.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
No one, no one wants that. And I want to know.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Okay, So there's this part of the book that I
really love, and you talk about this idea of why
we're so tired, and I do think it's important you
describe this idea of the energy crisis that we're living in.
And I want you to unpack this up because one
thing I've noticed lately, Amantha, when I'm talking to people.
So if we were to rewind five years ago, when
(21:14):
I was talking to people, they'd be like, if I say, oh, hey,
how are you, They'll be like, I'm busy, I reckon.
It's changed in the last few years. I'm hearing people
say hey, how are you, and they're like, I'm tired,
Like I'm cooked. I keep hearing oh, I'm just cooked,
and it's got me thinking, have we moved from hey,
(21:34):
the default responses I'm busy to the default responses I'm tired.
And I want to ask why are we so tired?
Speaker 1 (21:43):
There's so many reasons, I think, like you can't have
a conversation about energy and even just mental health without
thinking about, well, there was two years of pandemic, and
it's not like after twenty twenty and twenty twenty one
just like took a year off in Bali and just
relaxed and pondered our lives. It's like, no, we just
(22:08):
or just order to go back to the office, and
it was just go, go, go. And you know, when
I look at the stats, a lot of us never
really recovered from that. You know, you look at our
relationship with devices, which is only getting worse in terms
of all the things that are trying to grab our
attention and most of us are addicted.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
Most of us.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Spend pretty much zero minutes away from our phone. In
terms of thinking about how many minutes per day is
your phone more than arm's length away from you. For
most people, that's probably less than five minutes. There's I think,
like I didn't write too much about it in the book,
(22:51):
but I think it's a really really big thing, the
impact that AI is having, because if you work, AI
is changing your workplace. It is possibly making you feel
really insecure about your role, but at very least there
is a huge amount of change that you're dealing with
at work, and that kind of change, and more importantly,
that uncertainty is exhausting. And then like, let's not forget
(23:13):
the impact of actually using AI. So those of us
that have gone, you know, really deep and we've got AI,
you know, I've got agents running and it's just part
of our different workflows. We are now probably monitoring several
different agents. We're constantly context switching, and we're getting brain fry,
which is hugely mentally exhausting.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
So when then we think about a right, there's a
lot of things competing for our tension. We are like
our devices are always demanding that focus. I want to
know before we get to like, Okay, well what do
you do about it? Because I think it is helpful
for us to understand the problem before we jump into
this solution. And one of the other parts that I
(23:58):
found was like, you know when you read a book
and you're like, oh, it's talking to me, it's me
speaking into my soul.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
I was like, that's what's happening. That's exactly what's happening.
And there's this moment.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
That there's this moment in the book you talk about
the four energy types, can you describe what they are?
And I feel like people listening you just need to
see if you can spot yourself in what Amantha's going
to describe.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Okay, and we can put a link to the energy
type assessment in the show notes. So if you think
about two different dimensions and then I'm going to talk
about which of the four types fit in which dimensions.
So in terms of where our focus is, we can
either be in me mode, so essentially putting your own.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Goals first above all.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Else, and there's nothing wrong with that, like that is
a perfectly acceptable way to be in the world, or
we can be in we mode, where we're prioritizing other
people's needs above our own. And you know, with these
four energy types, which I'll get into in a moment,
it's not like a personality type where we generally go, Okay,
(25:09):
well that's what I'm stuck with for life. These energy
types are seasonal. So the best way to think about
it is I'm in that particular season, Like right now,
I'm a blast. So right now, you know, you might
potentially be leaning towards ME mode. Maybe if you're early
in your career and you've got no kids or other responsibilities,
no mortgage, and so you're leaning into that. Or maybe
(25:31):
you're an empty Nesta and it's all about you again,
you might be in WEI mode. Maybe if you've got
really young kids at home and you know, ultimately your
job is to keep them alive, so you have to
be in WEI mode. So that's one of the dimensions,
if you like. The other dimension is that we can
be in terms of our motivation. We can be motivated
(25:51):
to like avoid taking risks, avoid failure.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
I call that anxiety anxiety mode.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
And at the other end of that continuum, we can
be an ambition ambition mode, So where our motivation is
about really striving for more, trying to kick some goals.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
And then if you.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Imagine the me mode and WE mode on like an
X axis, and then the anxiety to ambition driven on
a Y axis, the four energy types fit within combinations
of those two continuums.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
And so what I know we both are.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
We are the type that is in ME mode and
that is ambition driven, and that is an achievement addict.
So these are people that are just like, Okay, great,
where's the next thing that I can achieve?
Speaker 4 (26:50):
What can I do now?
Speaker 1 (26:51):
How can I get further ahead in the things that
I'm striving for? And often it can be really hard
to know, well where do you stop?
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Like where do you or a line?
Speaker 1 (27:00):
And it's like, none of these types, not talking about
the other three in a moment, none of them are
bad except.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
When taken to the extreme.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
And you can often look to that type and go, ah,
I understand why I'm feeling like my energy is being depleted.
So that's achievement addict. Then we've got the over committer.
They are also on the ambition focus side of things,
but they're in WE mode, so they're all about what
can I do for other people?
Speaker 4 (27:27):
But they are striving to help.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Everyone, to do all the things for everyone else because
they genuinely want to help. So my husband is a
classic over committer, and when he's taking that to the extreme,
I see him get utterly exhausted. Now on the other side,
on the anxiety side, and I don't mean anxiety in
(27:53):
terms of like clinical disorder or a diagnosis. It's more,
you know, we're really where we're trying to just minimize failure,
avoid risk, just kind of be a bit conservative about things.
So we've got the perfectionist who is in me mode,
so still you know more about their own goals rather
(28:14):
than the people's goals.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
But they're anxiety driven, and.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
So they are double triple checking things because they don't
want to stuff anything up that don't want to look bad,
they don't want to get fired by a client. And
when you take perfectionism to the extreme, it is absolutely exhausting.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
Then the fourth.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Type are people pleasers who are in we mode, but
they're anxiety driven, so they are trying to do all
the things for everyone else, but it comes from a
place of anxiety and trying to be liked and avoid
conflict and not do the wrong thing. As opposed to
the over committer who's striving it just wants to do
all the things for everyone. And so you know, if
(28:54):
you take people pleaser to the extreme, you end up
utterly exhaust and so it's really worth thinking about. And
I talk about this throughout the Energy Game, thinking about
which one do you fall into? And there's an assessment
in the book, and as I said, like I'll put
a link to the assessment in the show notes so
you can figure it out. Although maybe you've already self
(29:15):
identified just through the description, which a lot of people.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
Do, but it will give you clues.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
To think about taken to the extreme. There's clues there
in terms of why is my energy nonexistent?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I love it so much. I love it so much
because I think.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
When you kind of look at it, you're like that
the achievement adequate or he's people listening here are like
I am an over committer and they're like Neo, your
amazing husband who wants to support everyone doing their thing,
but then doesn't maybe have those boundaries to go actually
what is achievable and what's not once you know.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Where you're at.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
And I actually think it's a great call out around
it can be seasonal, So I think about where you
where you were, like knocking over the table, where you
were in this in the business life cycle of sales
aren't where they were.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
I need to drive this thing forward.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
I've got to be ambitious, ambition focused and driven.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Once you know your type, what do you do with that?
Speaker 1 (30:17):
So what you do is you can understand, Okay, what
what am I missing?
Speaker 4 (30:23):
What do I like? What do I need to.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Address so that it can I and like because all
of the four types are fine, but just not taken
to the extreme. So like, for example, you know, if
you are someone that is an over committer or also
a people pleaser, you're probably saying yes a lot of
the time, and it's either driven by the need to
(30:49):
genuinely want to say yes and help as many people
as possible, or you're saying yes out of fear, and
neither of those are particularly great when we're trying to
look after our energy. And so you know, as an
example in the book, and we'll get into the three
types of strategies in the book, the protect strategies are
going to be super helpful because that is all about
protecting your energy and really thinking differently at what is
(31:10):
the cost of saying yes, because particularly for those two types,
those yes's are costing a lot.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
And I think that is really helpful to then link
to based on my type, what are the strategies that
are going to be best for me? Like what are
the ones that I need to use? And I can't
wait to get into all of those practical ways people.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Can can do that. Now, this may seem like a
really funny final.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Question for you, but it was really the other night
we were in Melbourne at this beautiful Japanese restaurant and
we were getting dinner and you were like to me,
oh yeah, I was doing a keynote at this energy conference,
and my mind went straight to like zen energy, Like
I'm like.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Oh, say, like a Yogi conference, And maybe there.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
Was a bit of reikie or like I don't know,
I was just imagining you like fully and you're like
no no, like act no, like energy energy networks and
like what do you mean, like say more on you
like electrical energy and like solar energy and things like
how these lights are on the stuff important stuff like
oh okay, but so nosen you weren't like no no,
(32:14):
And it did get me thinking it's sometimes helpful to
ask the silly question, because it was wasn't until I
asked the question that I realized we were on totally
different wavelengths. And I want to know when you think
about energy and what the heck even is energy? You
talk about energy accounts, can you just explain anyone listening
who's like when you're saying energy, what do you mean?
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Well, you talked about before, you know, when you ask
someone how are you going? They used to say, Oh,
I'm busy, I'm crazy busy, and now they just go.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
Oh, I'm exhausted, I'm so tired.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
And through my research I found that that's actually quite
an unhelpful way to think about energy as just this
one abstract concept, because when I got deeper into the research,
what became very clear is that we don't just have
the one energy account, like we're tired or not tired.
We've actually got three different energy accounts. So we've got
(33:07):
our physical energy account, how are we feeling in our body,
like we've got the energy to go out for a
run at lunchtime, for example. We've secondly got our mental
energy account, So how sharp are we feeling or are
we just feeling like our brain is super foggy. And
then we've got our third energy account, which is our
(33:28):
emotional energy account. So are we like I was crying
at the drop of a hat, or are we feeling
super resilient and just bouncing back from setbacks?
Speaker 4 (33:38):
So what you.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Might find And as part of the Energy Game process,
I actually recruited thirteen hundred people who took part in
a series of energy experiments and one of the things
that I asked them to do was to think about
the energy not as this one big concept, but as
three different accounts. And even just through doing that, through
tracking how are they going in those three different accounts?
(34:01):
And there's an energy logbook in the Energy Game to
do that is it start to bring so much more
awareness and like I go, well, actually my physical energy
is okay, but I think my mental energy is really shot,
and it can make it less overwhelming and you just go, oh, okay,
So it's just really one of my energy accounts is overdrawn,
but the other two are okay. So it's a I
(34:23):
have found and through the research that I did for
the book, it's a much more helpful way to think
about what can feel like a really big concept energy.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Well, also, I find it hard.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
You can't change anything when you're dealing with the vague
Like if I'm trying to if I'm like I'm tired, Well,
what's causing the tiredness? When I say I'm tired? What
part of me? Is?
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Is it that?
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Like when I describe the flu like sym it's like
where my physical body was like like.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Just not wanting to like move. Probably it's like the
physicality of my energy levels is really low at that point.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
So if you can't identify what account is low, is
running low, and therefore where what strategies would align to
help me rebuild, it then just becomes this really overwhelming
problem that we in.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
And of itself don't have the energy to solve. Like
it's just such a like vicious cycle.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
It is, it really is.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
And so I mean, I think clarity is always the
first step to problem solving.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
And I mean that's why I think there's so so
much gold here in the book that people need to
get into. I want to close out this conversation with
I guess letting people know where we're going to next,
because this is part one of two conversations that are
really important. The part one we really wanted to get
into what is the problem right now? What's this energy crisis?
Speaker 2 (35:40):
What does it mean?
Speaker 3 (35:41):
How can we understand our own energy levels? And what
the heck even is energy? Not that there's zen energy
that I thought you were at that conference you were.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Talking about, And so what I want to do is
just to close.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
Out when we think about the energy game, you talk
about energy challenges and recruiting all these people to do
all these energychallenges, what.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Were you doing and what are the categories?
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Like, anyone who's listening, that's like, what were these thirteen
hundred people actually doing?
Speaker 2 (36:09):
And there are three categories that you look at? So
can you talk to us about that?
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yes, So these thirteen hundred people were running experiments every
single week for six weeks. There was a lot of
survey data that I collected, which thank you to those
wonderful participants if they are listening. And there were three
types of strategies or challenges that I had them do
(36:35):
in terms of these experiments that they were running.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
And they got choice, and.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
That's part of the energy game that you know, I'm
not going to go do this thing today. Instead, you
can either randomize the choice by flicking to a different
page in the book, or you know, as you play
the game longer, you'll start to know.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
Okay, I think I need this category of challenges.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
So the three types of challenges in the book are firstly,
boost strategies, So this is when you are running low
on energy and you need an instant hit, like and
you've already had three cups of coffee and you can't
go for your fourth. So this is things that instantly
boost your energy. The second type of strategy are rest strategies,
(37:15):
and I think we'll talk about this in part two,
but a lot of us are just doing fake rest
as opposed to real rest, actually things that are scientifically
shown to genuinely recharge us, but do it really quickly, like.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
In less than ten minutes.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
And then the third strategy are protect strategies, which I
think most people don't think about with their energy. They're
just like, how can I just get a quick hit
of energy, or maybe I just need.
Speaker 4 (37:41):
To like chill for a little bit.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
But protect strategies are the third category, and they're really
important because you know, I when I think about protect strategies,
I don't know if you watch Survivor.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
I got into Survivron.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
A big way Okay, well, I'm always into Survivor.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
I think I've watched all all fifties seasons Survivor.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Ok yeah, not that into it, Okay, I'm hardcore.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
And there's a challenge in Survivor that's often one of
the first challenges where the teams will have to They'll
be given a bucket that's got holes in it, and
they've got a job to run to the beach and
fill it up with water and then run back to
a container that's like a couple of one hundred meters away,
but like the bucket's leaking because it's got all these
(38:28):
holes in it. They have to fill up this bucket
with water or this container with water.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
And I think.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
About protect strategies, like plugging those holes in that bucket.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
That is, it's not leaking water, is leaking energy, and.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
So the protect strategies talk about how do you actually
protect your.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
Energy so that you can keep it and not just
let it leak.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Out of you. I love that analogy.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Actually, I think as well, and we'll get into this
next in the next conversation.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
That thinking it back to the four energy types.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
You talk about the achievement addict going straight for the
boost strategies because they're trying to Oh no, Like as
soon as I saw it, I'm like, no, no time
for rest. I don't want any of those ones. I
just want the boost so I can get more stuff done.
And then I read and I thought, oh, she's speaking
to me again. So in the next episode, we're going
(39:24):
to get into how you can actually use some of
these challenges that have been tested by thirteen hundred people
and that are absolutely amazing. I've already done quite a
few of them and really enjoyed them, so we'll get
into that on the next episode. Amantha, thank you so
much for hanging out and having this conversation.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
The Energy Game. Make sure you get yourself a copy.
Get it.
Speaker 4 (39:45):
Is it on audible, it's everywhere everywhere.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
It is in book, hard copy, book form, it is
in audio form, and it's on ebook.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Or Kindle, And I think you're gonna want all of them.
You're definitely gonna want the hard copy and you're definitely
gonna want the.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Au book as well. So just grab it. The lot
is what I say.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
And I have enjoyed it so much and I know
you will to get on it. The Energy Game by
Doctor Amantha Imba, thanks for hanging out.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
Thanks Shelly.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Coming up next Thursday, Shelley and I get into the
solutions of how you can boost your energy, do proper
rest instead of fake rest, and do a better job
of protecting your energy from leaking out in the first place.
Make sure you hit follow or subscribe to be alerted
when part two drops next week. If you like today's Joe,
make sure you hit follow on your podcast app to
(40:36):
be alerted when new episodes drop.
Speaker 4 (40:38):
How I Work was recorded.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
On the traditional land of the Warringery people, part of
the Cooler Nation. A big thank you to Martin Nimber
for doing the sound mix.
Today's episode is a little bit different because it's a
crossover with the podcast. This is Work with the absolutely
awesome Shelley Johnson. In this chat, Shelley asks me all
about my year of burnout, how to identify the early
signs of burnout, and also how to avoid getting into
the situation that I did where it took me fantasizing
(00:22):
about going to hospital for me to realize that I
might have a problem. And by the way, if you
happen to be in Melbourne, then I would love for
you to join me at the Melbourne book launch of
The Energy Game, which is happening on July twenty nine
at the malt House Theater. There are still a few
seats available and there is a link to book a
(00:43):
seat in the show notes, there's going to be a
very fun night. Not only will you learn a lot
about your own energy, but you will come out with
a plan to significantly boost your energy in the next
seven days. And there might also be some song and dance.
(01:05):
Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals
and strategies for optimizing your date. I'm your host, doctor
Amantha Imba.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
I want to know how are your energy levels.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Are you feeling really energized, are you're feeling a bit
flat or fatigued? If you want to build more energy, well,
today's podcast is for you. I'm joined by my good friend,
doctor Amantha Imba. She's an organizational psychologist and the founder
of Inventium, and today on the show, we're talking about
her latest book, The Energy Game, and this episode is
(01:38):
so timely. She talks about the energy crisis, where people
are more exhausted than ever and they need the practical
tools to rebuild their energy. And this conversation we've separated
into part one and part two. The first part is
all about the problem with energy right now, why we're
so tired, and what we can do about it. Is
(02:00):
all about how you rebuild your energy using practical small
challenges that you can implement straight away. And okay, this
is jam packed with practical tools. You were gonna love it.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
Let's go.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
So, one thing I quickly learned about you and common
trait we share is with both anti small talk.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So we're going to dive.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Straight in and you've just released your new book, The
Energy Game, so we're going to talk about that today.
But one of the key parts that really surprised me
in your story, was you talk about fantasizing about being hospitalized?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Can you unpack that for us?
Speaker 1 (02:41):
I think about twenty twenty four as my year of burnout,
and it really came to a head in the middle
of the year. It was June twenty twenty four and
I was walking with a friend of mine who happens
to be a clinical psychologist, which I think is a
really handy trait in a friend.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
And her name's Savine, and we went for a walk and.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I said to her, I've been having this really crazy
kind of thought going around in my head and can
I share it with you? And I always hesitate to
use the word crazy as a psychologist, I don't think
that that is in our code of ethics to talk
about being crazy thoughts. Anyway, I said to her, I
am having this fantasy that.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
I wish I would get really, really.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Sick, and it would be sick enough to send me
to hospital for about a week. And I'd go to
hospital and nobody could contact me. I would have none
of my devices with me. People would send me sympathy
cards and there would be flowers and there would be peace,
and people would cook my beautiful hospital meals, and like,
(03:47):
literally the hardest thing I would have to do is
decide do I want lime jelly or do I want
raspberry jelly?
Speaker 4 (03:54):
And then after a week.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
I would just emerge out of hospital completely recovered and rested,
and on I would go with my life. And I
said to Sabina, am I just going out of my mind?
And she said, I have heard variations of that story
so many times in my private practice that I have
(04:17):
a name for it. I call it the getting hit
by a bus or by a bus or a car fantasy.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
And when she.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Told me that, I remember feeling firstly relieved that I
wasn't alone, but then also at the same time quite
horrified that there were other people that were having this
same really awful experience that I was having, where essentially
I had burnt out.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
So what did she like, when you think about, Okay,
I'm fantasizing about going to hospitals so I can rest,
what was going on for you that made that feel
like this is the only option?
Speaker 1 (04:57):
So it had been a really hard year With in ventim.
I run a company called Inventium. We run a lot
of corporate training programs around productivity, well being, innovation, and
a lot around AI as well. And I hadn't run
the business for many years. I'd had a CEO, and
that CEO had left at the end of twenty twenty three,
(05:20):
and I had made the decision to find a new CEO,
And while I was trying to find that person, I
just jumped back into that role.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
And it was I didn't feel like I had a choice.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
So I don't want to say it was a bad decision,
but that decision just nearly killed me. I was walking
into a culture that that was a hard.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
One to walk back into.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
I was leading people that I don't think wanted me
as their leader, which made it incredibly lonely. And at
that point in time, in sort of twenty twenty three
and twenty twenty four, it was a pretty hard time
for professional services business and certainly corporate training businesses. A
lot of budgets were being cut and so sales like
(06:16):
we were work having to work three times as hard
to get a fraction of the sales that we were
used to and that I had to get in order
to pay for operating expenses and people's salaries.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
So a lot of it was really about work stress.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
And so it's really interesting to me when you look
back and in hindsight we see, oh wow, there were
like all these early warning signs that I ignored or missed.
What were some of the early warning signs As you
look back now and you're like, gee, I should have
noticed that sooner.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
What are some of those for you? Manta?
Speaker 4 (06:53):
There were definitely physical warning signs.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
So I am someone that has done strength training for
for many years, four times a week, I'm pretty got
a pretty strict routine, and I remember in twenty twenty four,
like I'm used to being able to push myself harder
and get new personal bests, and in twenty twenty four, I,
like almost every workout, i'd be like, I don't really
(07:19):
feel like I can push myself today. I'll just go
a bit easy on myself. And I kept saying that
and thinking, next week, I'll be fine. Next week, I'll
be back to really pushing myself hard until like next
week becomes six months down the track, and I've gone
significantly backwards in my routine, which might sound kind of trivial.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
And at the time I didn't think too much of it, but.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Like when you've been doing that for several months on end,
I'm like, what is going on in my body that
I can no longer push it. I'm just physically so depleted. Mentally,
things will also not great. Part of my morning routine
is that I'll do an hour or two of deep
work and I'll really significant progress on the things that
(08:03):
matter most to me, the things that are driving you know,
the business forward, my own goals forward. And I found
that those mornings just became distraction central, Like I I
was looking for that dopamine hit by checking my email
fifty times before ten am, and I was just letting
other people's priorities become my own.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
And having written books on.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Productivity and that's a large part of what we do,
would invent him helping people be more productive. Like I
felt like the plumber with the blocked pipes, Like I
felt like such a hypocrite, and I felt so much shame.
I'm like, why isn't my brain working properly? Why am
I just giving into all these digital distractions that I
tell our clients, no, stop it, don't do that.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
That's not how we work.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
So that was the mental side of things, And then emotionally,
I would like to think I'm someone that's quite resilient.
And I think as a business owner, as you know,
like it gotta be bloody rezili to run a business
so any period of time. But I found myself just
like crying at the drop of a hat. There were
(09:09):
so many meetings that I had with team members where
you know, there'd be tension, there'd be disagreements, and I
would leave the meeting from the comfort of my home
office because we're a remote first team, and I just
burst into tears. And it got to the point where
just crying at my desk became a daily activity, and
(09:31):
it all kind of creeps up on you slowly until
you suddenly stop and go, this isn't how life should be.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
So there's so many things that I want to draw
on in what you've just said, and I'm trying to
work out where's the best place to go.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Can I decide just this.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Is pure curiosity because it surprised me hearing you say that.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I've the three categories.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
The physical so you're noticed in your body not being
able to push yourself at the gym, then the second
one of the mental side of it, looking for the
dopamine hits, and then the third one around the emotional
started just crying on the drop of hat would you
normally say you're a crier?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Like, do you cry easily?
Speaker 3 (10:09):
No, I'm really surprised because to me, I'm like, I
wouldn't have pegged you as.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
A crier, Like I'm not. I'm not so with I
mean just thinking.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
About these little signs, little signs and some of the
bigger ones.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
And then I want to draw on this one really.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Important thing and where you say I felt like a
hypocrite because part of me wonders for you. Was that
also what caused you to keep pushing through because you're like,
I know better, I should know better. I'm the person
that talks about productivity and efficiency and you've written a
(10:45):
time wise and health habit And.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Did that stop you.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
From being able to open up about it.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
I'm just curious, I think in terms of opening up
with my team about it, because really, like things were
gravy in my personal life. It was all very contained
to work, which for some people's experience of burnout is
very normal, others it's in all the domains of life.
(11:15):
Mine was very much driven by what was going on
in the work environment, and it wasn't I mean, I
never liked feeling like a hypocrite. But the reason why
I just kept pushing forward is because I didn't think
I had a choice. Like in Ventium as a business,
we've been around for nineteen years, and for every one
(11:37):
of the years leading up to year seventeen, which was
the year when all this happened, like we'd been profitable.
We never had a financial year where we had made
a loss or we had been running at a loss,
and in this particular financial year, we were running at
quite a significant loss where I was having to go
(11:58):
into my savings account to pay people salaries every second Thursday,
and that was not an experience I was used.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
To doing it.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
I know that makes me very fortunate as a business owner,
because I know that cash flow is, like, you know,
a really big issue for most business owners. But because
of the financial position of the company, I'm like, I
don't have a choice.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
I really need a break.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Right now, but it is not an option because I've
got salaries to pay. I yes, I could retrench people
because we didn't have the sales and the income to
support the team size that we had and the different
roles that we had.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
But look in that first part of the year.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I remember I had so many sleepless nights where I'd
just be like, what am I going to do?
Speaker 4 (12:48):
What am I going to do? I just have to
work harder. I just have to get more sales.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I can't let people go, like a lot of the
team I'd worked with for many, many years. And you know,
and I think this was part of the exhaustion because
I couldn't see clearly like if I hadn't been so exhausted,
I would have made some really big decisions earlier on
in that year that would have just circumvented a lot
(13:12):
of the pain that I was living with in twenty
twenty four around the health of the business.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
And so it just it just prompted me when you
describe that of I didn't have a choice and feeling
like I didn't have a choice you talk about in.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
The book the push through fallacy.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Can you talk to me about that, because I think
a lot of people listening will really I mean, that
part for me hit really hard, Like I was like, oh, like,
I just love you to unpack what you mean by that.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Yeah, So the push through paradox is where we you know,
initially we can see a lot of work ahead of
us and we're working really hard and we've got the
energy and we're kicking goals and we're like, I just
did a sixty hour a week and I achieved so
much and I can totally do this, and it kind
of a quite addictives.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
So we keep doing more.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
But then the like we get diminishing returns because you
just cannot sustain that kind.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
Of output at work.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
And I'd keep working really hard because I was getting
those addictive highs. But then the more I did that,
the less productive I was during the sixty or seventy
hours that I was working every week, which then means
I have to work even harder to get the same
kind of output. And then eventually your mind and you
(14:36):
like your brain, your body, your emotions, that everything just
like goes on strike and they're like, okay, we're done,
Like we just can't push through any more.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
And that is how I got to burn out.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
So told me, because there is so much gold in
this book, and I would say anyone who wants to
be a high perform in the long run needs to
read this book because this is about how you sustain
your energy in the long run. For I think optimal
optimal performance talk to us about where this came from,
(15:11):
because I imagine you hit burnout, you had a really
really tough year by all accounts, then you then you
is this where the.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Idea sparked from?
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Like tell us about where the Energy Game originated from.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
I mean, I think with all the books that I write,
they're trying to solve a problem for me, and this
one because I think, like everything I was reading about
how could I get out of this energy hole that
I was in, it just required so much energy to
(15:49):
actually do. Like I'm not going to meditate for an
hour every night. I'm not going to get up of
an hour earlier to you know, exercise and get all
the endorphins flowing, you know. I like all the things
that you kind of go, well, you should do that,
they just felt really unachievable. And also there were really
big decisions that I needed to make with the business,
(16:11):
and I just didn't have the energy to make those
big decisions. And so I thought, Okay, I need to
start small. And The Energy Game is written for someone
that is just they're tired of being tired, or at
worst they're close to burnout or they've burnt out, and
they're like just completely and utterly exhausted. And when you're
(16:32):
in that state, like you don't want to be told, well,
all you need to do is you just need to
sleep eight hours and you just need to eat better
and cut out all highly processed foods.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Actually, you just do.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Sugar free from now on.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
It's like, actually, the only thing that's making me function
is the ridiculous amount of chocolate that I've eaten.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
You can just stop talking right now. But sleepless people,
they have these like really grandiose ideas.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah, yeah, it's just like, okay, so just stop drinking
your coffee and cut out the chocolate and don't drink
wine at night to wind down.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
No one, no one's going to do that.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Like when you're in the depths of exhaustion, that advice
just doesn't cut it. So what I wanted to find
in the energy game? And when I was doing you know, research,
as you know as tend to call it, Yes, I'm
like what I need to find because, like as I
was saying to you before when we were catching up,
(17:26):
I think the idea of having a book that has
science backed strategies has been democratized thanks to AI. Thanks
to the many search engines that you know, are filled
with all the academic journals, Like that's anyone can do that.
But what took so much time? When I was reading
through a calculated over a thousand journal articles for The
(17:50):
Energy Game, and there is quite a long reference list
in the book, and I wanted to find what I
think of as the minimum viable dose or MVD. So
what is the absolute minimum of this thing that will
get me more energy? This intervention that will energize me
or help me truly recharge, or get better at setting
(18:10):
boundaries so that my energy doesn't just leak out of me,
that will have an immediate effect. And so most of
the I think it's fifty three challenges or strategies in
the book take less than about five minutes to do,
and the impact is there because science Everything is science
backed in the book. So yeah, I'm all about, like,
(18:33):
how do I make this easy for me? And how
do I make it easy for readers that are reading
The Energy Game?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
One thing that I really loved.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
There's so many things so I loved about a book,
and anyone who can see the book on the table,
it's like, really it looks really grubty because I'm like, dog, like,
what do you call it Like, I've like holded all
the pages that I like and like it's super super practical,
But that minimum Bible dose concept. Having gone through like
a pretty significant burnout myself in twenty eighteen, I had
(19:11):
to have three months off work and I remember like
I could not get out, I could not get out
of bed. I was like I ended up, Like the
fatigue symptoms were so strong. I described it to people
as having the flu every day. It was like you
know when you feel it in your limbs, in your body,
and you're like, I can't get up.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
And so when people.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Sprout off these ideas of like cold plunge every day
at five am, I'm like, well, you can shut up
right now, because that's not happening. Like when you're when
you're exhausted or fatigued, or you're going through burnout or
you're close to burnout, there's no way you can do
that stuff. And one of the things that I think
is really really helpful in your book is every strategy
(19:52):
is small and practical and has an initial like an
instant uplift like I found like testing and we'll go
into in the next conversation. We have what those practical
strategies are because people are really going to benefit from those.
I think that when it comes to your energy levels
(20:13):
and wanting, we often gravitate towards the transformation over the
quick winds or the little tiny changes.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Why do you think that is?
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Because you know how we're looking for I've got to
transform my whole life, when really it's the small little
steps that stuck up.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Has that been your experience.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
One hundred percent?
Speaker 1 (20:31):
And ultimately that's all that feels achievable because when you
are so exhausted, you literally can't overhaul your life. And
maybe you might try to on Monday, but then you're
probably failing by Tuesday or Wednesday and feeling really bad
about yourself.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
And no one wants that.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
No one, no one wants that. And I want to know.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Okay, So there's this part of the book that I
really love, and you talk about this idea of why
we're so tired, and I do think it's important you
describe this idea of the energy crisis that we're living in.
And I want you to unpack this up because one
thing I've noticed lately, Amantha, when I'm talking to people.
So if we were to rewind five years ago, when
(21:14):
I was talking to people, they'd be like, if I say, oh, hey,
how are you, They'll be like, I'm busy, I reckon.
It's changed in the last few years. I'm hearing people
say hey, how are you, and they're like, I'm tired,
Like I'm cooked. I keep hearing oh, I'm just cooked,
and it's got me thinking, have we moved from hey,
(21:34):
the default responses I'm busy to the default responses I'm tired.
And I want to ask why are we so tired?
Speaker 1 (21:43):
There's so many reasons, I think, like you can't have
a conversation about energy and even just mental health without
thinking about, well, there was two years of pandemic, and
it's not like after twenty twenty and twenty twenty one
just like took a year off in Bali and just
relaxed and pondered our lives. It's like, no, we just
(22:08):
or just order to go back to the office, and
it was just go, go, go. And you know, when
I look at the stats, a lot of us never
really recovered from that. You know, you look at our
relationship with devices, which is only getting worse in terms
of all the things that are trying to grab our
attention and most of us are addicted.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
Most of us.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Spend pretty much zero minutes away from our phone. In
terms of thinking about how many minutes per day is
your phone more than arm's length away from you. For
most people, that's probably less than five minutes. There's I think,
like I didn't write too much about it in the book,
(22:51):
but I think it's a really really big thing, the
impact that AI is having, because if you work, AI
is changing your workplace. It is possibly making you feel
really insecure about your role, but at very least there
is a huge amount of change that you're dealing with
at work, and that kind of change, and more importantly,
that uncertainty is exhausting. And then like, let's not forget
(23:13):
the impact of actually using AI. So those of us
that have gone, you know, really deep and we've got AI,
you know, I've got agents running and it's just part
of our different workflows. We are now probably monitoring several
different agents. We're constantly context switching, and we're getting brain fry,
which is hugely mentally exhausting.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
So when then we think about a right, there's a
lot of things competing for our tension. We are like
our devices are always demanding that focus. I want to
know before we get to like, Okay, well what do
you do about it? Because I think it is helpful
for us to understand the problem before we jump into
this solution. And one of the other parts that I
(23:58):
found was like, you know when you read a book
and you're like, oh, it's talking to me, it's me
speaking into my soul.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
I was like, that's what's happening. That's exactly what's happening.
And there's this moment.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
That there's this moment in the book you talk about
the four energy types, can you describe what they are?
And I feel like people listening you just need to
see if you can spot yourself in what Amantha's going
to describe.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Okay, and we can put a link to the energy
type assessment in the show notes. So if you think
about two different dimensions and then I'm going to talk
about which of the four types fit in which dimensions.
So in terms of where our focus is, we can
either be in me mode, so essentially putting your own.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Goals first above all.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Else, and there's nothing wrong with that, like that is
a perfectly acceptable way to be in the world, or
we can be in we mode, where we're prioritizing other
people's needs above our own. And you know, with these
four energy types, which I'll get into in a moment,
it's not like a personality type where we generally go, Okay,
(25:09):
well that's what I'm stuck with for life. These energy
types are seasonal. So the best way to think about
it is I'm in that particular season, Like right now,
I'm a blast. So right now, you know, you might
potentially be leaning towards ME mode. Maybe if you're early
in your career and you've got no kids or other responsibilities,
no mortgage, and so you're leaning into that. Or maybe
(25:31):
you're an empty Nesta and it's all about you again,
you might be in WEI mode. Maybe if you've got
really young kids at home and you know, ultimately your
job is to keep them alive, so you have to
be in WEI mode. So that's one of the dimensions,
if you like. The other dimension is that we can
be in terms of our motivation. We can be motivated
(25:51):
to like avoid taking risks, avoid failure.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
I call that anxiety anxiety mode.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
And at the other end of that continuum, we can
be an ambition ambition mode, So where our motivation is
about really striving for more, trying to kick some goals.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
And then if you.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Imagine the me mode and WE mode on like an
X axis, and then the anxiety to ambition driven on
a Y axis, the four energy types fit within combinations
of those two continuums.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
And so what I know we both are.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
We are the type that is in ME mode and
that is ambition driven, and that is an achievement addict.
So these are people that are just like, Okay, great,
where's the next thing that I can achieve?
Speaker 4 (26:50):
What can I do now?
Speaker 1 (26:51):
How can I get further ahead in the things that
I'm striving for? And often it can be really hard
to know, well where do you stop?
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Like where do you or a line?
Speaker 1 (27:00):
And it's like, none of these types, not talking about
the other three in a moment, none of them are
bad except.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
When taken to the extreme.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
And you can often look to that type and go, ah,
I understand why I'm feeling like my energy is being depleted.
So that's achievement addict. Then we've got the over committer.
They are also on the ambition focus side of things,
but they're in WE mode, so they're all about what
can I do for other people?
Speaker 4 (27:27):
But they are striving to help.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Everyone, to do all the things for everyone else because
they genuinely want to help. So my husband is a
classic over committer, and when he's taking that to the extreme,
I see him get utterly exhausted. Now on the other side,
on the anxiety side, and I don't mean anxiety in
(27:53):
terms of like clinical disorder or a diagnosis. It's more,
you know, we're really where we're trying to just minimize failure,
avoid risk, just kind of be a bit conservative about things.
So we've got the perfectionist who is in me mode,
so still you know more about their own goals rather
(28:14):
than the people's goals.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
But they're anxiety driven, and.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
So they are double triple checking things because they don't
want to stuff anything up that don't want to look bad,
they don't want to get fired by a client. And
when you take perfectionism to the extreme, it is absolutely exhausting.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
Then the fourth.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Type are people pleasers who are in we mode, but
they're anxiety driven, so they are trying to do all
the things for everyone else, but it comes from a
place of anxiety and trying to be liked and avoid
conflict and not do the wrong thing. As opposed to
the over committer who's striving it just wants to do
all the things for everyone. And so you know, if
(28:54):
you take people pleaser to the extreme, you end up
utterly exhaust and so it's really worth thinking about. And
I talk about this throughout the Energy Game, thinking about
which one do you fall into? And there's an assessment
in the book, and as I said, like I'll put
a link to the assessment in the show notes so
you can figure it out. Although maybe you've already self
(29:15):
identified just through the description, which a lot of people.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
Do, but it will give you clues.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
To think about taken to the extreme. There's clues there
in terms of why is my energy nonexistent?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I love it so much. I love it so much
because I think.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
When you kind of look at it, you're like that
the achievement adequate or he's people listening here are like
I am an over committer and they're like Neo, your
amazing husband who wants to support everyone doing their thing,
but then doesn't maybe have those boundaries to go actually
what is achievable and what's not once you know.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Where you're at.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
And I actually think it's a great call out around
it can be seasonal, So I think about where you
where you were, like knocking over the table, where you
were in this in the business life cycle of sales
aren't where they were.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
I need to drive this thing forward.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
I've got to be ambitious, ambition focused and driven.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Once you know your type, what do you do with that?
Speaker 1 (30:17):
So what you do is you can understand, Okay, what
what am I missing?
Speaker 4 (30:23):
What do I like? What do I need to.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Address so that it can I and like because all
of the four types are fine, but just not taken
to the extreme. So like, for example, you know, if
you are someone that is an over committer or also
a people pleaser, you're probably saying yes a lot of
the time, and it's either driven by the need to
(30:49):
genuinely want to say yes and help as many people
as possible, or you're saying yes out of fear, and
neither of those are particularly great when we're trying to
look after our energy. And so you know, as an
example in the book, and we'll get into the three
types of strategies in the book, the protect strategies are
going to be super helpful because that is all about
protecting your energy and really thinking differently at what is
(31:10):
the cost of saying yes, because particularly for those two types,
those yes's are costing a lot.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
And I think that is really helpful to then link
to based on my type, what are the strategies that
are going to be best for me? Like what are
the ones that I need to use? And I can't
wait to get into all of those practical ways people.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Can can do that. Now, this may seem like a
really funny final.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Question for you, but it was really the other night
we were in Melbourne at this beautiful Japanese restaurant and
we were getting dinner and you were like to me,
oh yeah, I was doing a keynote at this energy conference,
and my mind went straight to like zen energy, Like
I'm like.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Oh, say, like a Yogi conference, And maybe there.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
Was a bit of reikie or like I don't know,
I was just imagining you like fully and you're like
no no, like act no, like energy energy networks and
like what do you mean, like say more on you
like electrical energy and like solar energy and things like
how these lights are on the stuff important stuff like
oh okay, but so nosen you weren't like no no,
(32:14):
And it did get me thinking it's sometimes helpful to
ask the silly question, because it was wasn't until I
asked the question that I realized we were on totally
different wavelengths. And I want to know when you think
about energy and what the heck even is energy? You
talk about energy accounts, can you just explain anyone listening
who's like when you're saying energy, what do you mean?
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Well, you talked about before, you know, when you ask
someone how are you going? They used to say, Oh,
I'm busy, I'm crazy busy, and now they just go.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
Oh, I'm exhausted, I'm so tired.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
And through my research I found that that's actually quite
an unhelpful way to think about energy as just this
one abstract concept, because when I got deeper into the research,
what became very clear is that we don't just have
the one energy account, like we're tired or not tired.
We've actually got three different energy accounts. So we've got
(33:07):
our physical energy account, how are we feeling in our body,
like we've got the energy to go out for a
run at lunchtime, for example. We've secondly got our mental
energy account, So how sharp are we feeling or are
we just feeling like our brain is super foggy. And
then we've got our third energy account, which is our
(33:28):
emotional energy account. So are we like I was crying
at the drop of a hat, or are we feeling
super resilient and just bouncing back from setbacks?
Speaker 4 (33:38):
So what you.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Might find And as part of the Energy Game process,
I actually recruited thirteen hundred people who took part in
a series of energy experiments and one of the things
that I asked them to do was to think about
the energy not as this one big concept, but as
three different accounts. And even just through doing that, through
tracking how are they going in those three different accounts?
(34:01):
And there's an energy logbook in the Energy Game to
do that is it start to bring so much more
awareness and like I go, well, actually my physical energy
is okay, but I think my mental energy is really shot,
and it can make it less overwhelming and you just go, oh, okay,
So it's just really one of my energy accounts is overdrawn,
but the other two are okay. So it's a I
(34:23):
have found and through the research that I did for
the book, it's a much more helpful way to think
about what can feel like a really big concept energy.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Well, also, I find it hard.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
You can't change anything when you're dealing with the vague
Like if I'm trying to if I'm like I'm tired, Well,
what's causing the tiredness? When I say I'm tired? What
part of me? Is?
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Is it that?
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Like when I describe the flu like sym it's like
where my physical body was like like.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Just not wanting to like move. Probably it's like the
physicality of my energy levels is really low at that point.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
So if you can't identify what account is low, is
running low, and therefore where what strategies would align to
help me rebuild, it then just becomes this really overwhelming
problem that we in.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
And of itself don't have the energy to solve. Like
it's just such a like vicious cycle.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
It is, it really is.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
And so I mean, I think clarity is always the
first step to problem solving.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
And I mean that's why I think there's so so
much gold here in the book that people need to
get into. I want to close out this conversation with
I guess letting people know where we're going to next,
because this is part one of two conversations that are
really important. The part one we really wanted to get
into what is the problem right now? What's this energy crisis?
Speaker 2 (35:40):
What does it mean?
Speaker 3 (35:41):
How can we understand our own energy levels? And what
the heck even is energy? Not that there's zen energy
that I thought you were at that conference you were.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Talking about, And so what I want to do is
just to close.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
Out when we think about the energy game, you talk
about energy challenges and recruiting all these people to do
all these energychallenges, what.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Were you doing and what are the categories?
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Like, anyone who's listening, that's like, what were these thirteen
hundred people actually doing?
Speaker 2 (36:09):
And there are three categories that you look at? So
can you talk to us about that?
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yes, So these thirteen hundred people were running experiments every
single week for six weeks. There was a lot of
survey data that I collected, which thank you to those
wonderful participants if they are listening. And there were three
types of strategies or challenges that I had them do
(36:35):
in terms of these experiments that they were running.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
And they got choice, and.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
That's part of the energy game that you know, I'm
not going to go do this thing today. Instead, you
can either randomize the choice by flicking to a different
page in the book, or you know, as you play
the game longer, you'll start to know.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
Okay, I think I need this category of challenges.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
So the three types of challenges in the book are firstly,
boost strategies, So this is when you are running low
on energy and you need an instant hit, like and
you've already had three cups of coffee and you can't
go for your fourth. So this is things that instantly
boost your energy. The second type of strategy are rest strategies,
(37:15):
and I think we'll talk about this in part two,
but a lot of us are just doing fake rest
as opposed to real rest, actually things that are scientifically
shown to genuinely recharge us, but do it really quickly, like.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
In less than ten minutes.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
And then the third strategy are protect strategies, which I
think most people don't think about with their energy. They're
just like, how can I just get a quick hit
of energy, or maybe I just need.
Speaker 4 (37:41):
To like chill for a little bit.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
But protect strategies are the third category, and they're really
important because you know, I when I think about protect strategies,
I don't know if you watch Survivor.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
I got into Survivron.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
A big way Okay, well, I'm always into Survivor.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
I think I've watched all all fifties seasons Survivor.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Ok yeah, not that into it, Okay, I'm hardcore.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
And there's a challenge in Survivor that's often one of
the first challenges where the teams will have to They'll
be given a bucket that's got holes in it, and
they've got a job to run to the beach and
fill it up with water and then run back to
a container that's like a couple of one hundred meters away,
but like the bucket's leaking because it's got all these
(38:28):
holes in it. They have to fill up this bucket
with water or this container with water.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
And I think.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
About protect strategies, like plugging those holes in that bucket.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
That is, it's not leaking water, is leaking energy, and.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
So the protect strategies talk about how do you actually
protect your.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
Energy so that you can keep it and not just
let it leak.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Out of you. I love that analogy.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Actually, I think as well, and we'll get into this
next in the next conversation.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
That thinking it back to the four energy types.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
You talk about the achievement addict going straight for the
boost strategies because they're trying to Oh no, Like as
soon as I saw it, I'm like, no, no time
for rest. I don't want any of those ones. I
just want the boost so I can get more stuff done.
And then I read and I thought, oh, she's speaking
to me again. So in the next episode, we're going
(39:24):
to get into how you can actually use some of
these challenges that have been tested by thirteen hundred people
and that are absolutely amazing. I've already done quite a
few of them and really enjoyed them, so we'll get
into that on the next episode. Amantha, thank you so
much for hanging out and having this conversation.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
The Energy Game. Make sure you get yourself a copy.
Get it.
Speaker 4 (39:45):
Is it on audible, it's everywhere everywhere.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
It is in book, hard copy, book form, it is
in audio form, and it's on ebook.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Or Kindle, And I think you're gonna want all of them.
You're definitely gonna want the hard copy and you're definitely
gonna want the.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Au book as well. So just grab it. The lot
is what I say.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
And I have enjoyed it so much and I know
you will to get on it. The Energy Game by
Doctor Amantha Imba, thanks for hanging out.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
Thanks Shelly.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Coming up next Thursday, Shelley and I get into the
solutions of how you can boost your energy, do proper
rest instead of fake rest, and do a better job
of protecting your energy from leaking out in the first place.
Make sure you hit follow or subscribe to be alerted
when part two drops next week. If you like today's Joe,
make sure you hit follow on your podcast app to
(40:36):
be alerted when new episodes drop.
Speaker 4 (40:38):
How I Work was recorded.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
On the traditional land of the Warringery people, part of
the Cooler Nation. A big thank you to Martin Nimber
for doing the sound mix.
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