June 26, 2023 • 33 mins
You've probably heard the term 'house flipping' before. It's the process of buying a property at a relatively low price, renovating, or modifying it in some way and then selling it for a profit. Sounds easy, right? Not so fast. As with any property purchase, you need to know what you're getting into. Today on the show, Jessica Ricci is joined by interior designer Alison Lewis to give you expert insight and handy tips for your own renovator’s dream.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Property Playbook would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians
of the lands of where this podcast is recorded. There
were wondry people of the cooler nations acknowledging the culture,
the history, and the connection to the lands of what
we call home. Let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello and welcome to The Property Playbook, the podcast where
we take you from the A to V of all
things property. My name is Jessica Ricky and I would
really really like to own my own home one day,
but until then, I have lots of experts helping me
all along my journey. Today I have the amazing Alison Lewis,
who is an interior designer and a very experienced renovator
(00:50):
or flipper or all of the above. I think you
just wear so many hats. So thank you for coming
to join us today.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
Today.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
We're going to be talking all about flipping, which, if
you haven't heard the term before, is the concept of
purchasing a property, ideally for a relatively low price, modifying it,
and then selling it.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
For a profit.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
That's right, Yeah, So to begin with, what should we
be looking for when we're trying to find a property
to flip.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Okay, I guess the first thing.
Speaker 5 (01:19):
Like most things, everything has a process, So buying a
home has a process, and there's a process involved when
you're looking to renovate for profit or flip a house essentially.
But I guess when it comes to flipping or renovating
for profit, there's a few extra steps as part of
your process, and ones that you may not necessarily consider
if you were just buying like your family home or
(01:39):
you're forever home. So the things like location, streetscape, neighborhood,
they're all still really really important. How close is it
to train station, how close is it to the high street, cafes,
et cetera. So they're still really important factors. But then
I guess you're delving a little bit deeper knowing that
the outcome of this purchase is, you know, to add
value and to renovate and to make a profit. So
(02:02):
you want to do that probably as quick as you can.
You don't want to be caught up in councils, and
you don't want to be caught out by not having
checked if there's a heritage overlay, for example, or if
there's an easement running through the property. If you're planning
to put a pool in there. So there's a few
extra factors that you might look at in terms of
council regulations. What's going to activate a planning permit If
you're un less than you know, three hundred square meters,
that activates a planning permit for some councils. So there's
(02:24):
a few extra steps you take there. And then there's
also I guess looking at future planning and infrastructure. Some
are going to go be able to tend story apartment
building across the road, So you're looking at those sort
of things as part of your due diligence.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
Yep, we love that word here on.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
And due diligence.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
Obviously is really important when you buy a house, and
it's also really important when you're looking to buy one
to flip. But I think the biggest part of it
is actually your feasibility. So what I mean when I
say your feasibility is these are your numbers. So you're
literally working out how much it's going to cost you
to do the works, how much is construction, how much
you'll need to get plans permit. It's architects, building designer,
(03:02):
interior designer, landscaping.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Pool no pool.
Speaker 5 (03:06):
So you're literally putting all of these numbers into a spreadsheet,
which is called a feasibility. You've got your holding costs
to consider how long the project's going to take. You've
got your selling costs, and you've also got your buying costs.
A lot of people forget that the buying costs your
stamp duty actually forms part of your overall return on investment.
So there's some of the extra things that you're looking
for when you're looking to flip a property, and you know,
(03:28):
when you do your feasibility, it can be like everyone,
it could be really difficult not to get emotionally attached
to a house, like I think, even when you're looking
to flip it, you still do have that emotional draw
and that's obviously really important because you want people to
walk in no matter how much you change it that
you still could have feeling and a vibe from a house.
So it's really important that if you know where emotions
(03:49):
come into play, you don't let your numbers lie in
your feasibility, so you don't fudge it so it works out.
You know, just don't light to yourself, because if the
numbers don't stack up, you really have to be prepared
to walk away. Yeah, and I think you know, in
the words of many real estate agents, there's always another life,
like once in a lifetime opportunity when it comes to
real estate, so there will be another house, So just
(04:11):
being prepared to kind of walk away is really important.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah, that's a really good point speaking of the real
estate agents. When you're looking to purchase house, should you
be disclosing that information to an agent because I know
sometimes people say, you know, if you're intending on looking
for an investment property, people have different opinions on whether
you should or should not disclose up. Yeah, you know
it's going to impact their view of like what you're
(04:34):
prepared to do in terms of your spend all those
sorts of things. Should you be up front with them
and tell them that you are ultimately looking to renovate
to make profit.
Speaker 5 (04:42):
I think you need to read the room sometimes, Like
obviously building a relationship with the real estate agent, it's
only going to beneficial to everyone, so you know, knowing
what motivates your vendor. Do they need a quick settlement?
Are they looking for a long settlement? Is that a
decease of state? That sort of information you gain from
speaking with the real estate agent's going to help you
potentially if you want to make an early offer, so
you know what motivates them, which is more likely to
(05:04):
kind of secure the property quicker for you. But I
guess when you're talking about how much to disclose, look,
no vendor wants to hear that an interested party is
going to come in and rip out their bathroom and
their kitchen. So you've got to find You've got to
I guess find that line on how much.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
You're prepared to say.
Speaker 5 (05:20):
But equally, when you're looking at these houses to flip,
they usually are full of potential, and that's pretty clear,
and the real estate agent will always be like, oh,
it's full of potential, and you know, you can walk
through with a vision and it's got great bones, and
you can talk about that with the real estate agent.
But I also like to ask real estate agents what
comparable properties that are fully renovated, what are they sold
(05:40):
for down the road, And they'll start to get an
idea that you are looking to renovate the house. You know,
I don't necessarily disclose and I'm looking to flip it,
but I will talk about what comparable properties are selling
for and my interest in renovating, and this is the
first time I've renovated.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
But most good real.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
Estate agents want to know who they're dealing with, and
I often find that they're pretty receptive and willing to
share that information with you. And at the end of
the day, like their goal is obviously to get the
best price for their indoor but if they can also
get another sale down the track because they know that
you're going to flip that property.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
That's such a good point.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
It's a bit of a win win for everyone.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah, you might be willing to work a little bit
harder for you in the hope that you'll come back,
that's right, Which you don't have to, right.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
I know you don't have to.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
You can still if you purchase somebody, you absolutely are
still entitled to you want to sell.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
But if you have a really good rapport with this
agent and you've got a great relationship and you like
the way they work to sell you that property, then
you're more likely to engage them down the track to
sell your property for you as well.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Absolutely, Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I want
to talk about you for a minute. Oh, okay, you're fabulous.
Can you tell me how did you begin with renovatingcause
you've done quite a few properties, have many.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Of you done at this point?
Speaker 5 (06:51):
So I'm up to my fourth at the moment, You're
up to my fourth and I've got my fifth in planning.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Oh my god. Yeah, it's so fun. How did you
get started? Did you?
Speaker 4 (07:01):
And where did you learn?
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Right? Because I think it's a big thing, and for
someone like me, the excitement of flipping is really fun
because I like the idea of the creative process. But
I would not have the first clue on where to begin.
I wouldn't know how even to begin researching it. So
what was that journey like for you? How did you
decide that was what you wanted to do?
Speaker 5 (07:22):
Yeah, I mean I've always loved property since I was
really young. Like I was that kid who cut out
the houses in the Herald Sun real estate magazine and
stuck them in a scrapbook at like seven years old,
So that that was me. I always knew I loved property.
I didn't know for a really long time where I
wanted to sit within that property. I worked in corporate finance,
(07:42):
and you know, when we bought our house in Eltham,
that was kind of like my turning point.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
I knew I wanted to.
Speaker 5 (07:49):
We bought it with the intention that we would do
it all ourselves and we would do a cosmetic renovation
and eventually down the track we would sell it. I
had no ideas about feasibilities, and I had no ideas
about construction costs. I kind of went off my gut
to do that, and it worked out really well because
when we sold, you know, we broke the square meter
each record. Yeah, so that was really exciting. That was
very validating, I guess for me as well. So I
(08:10):
kind of made two decisions when that happened. The first
one was I decided to leave the corporate world and
become an interior designer. I actually didn't know if I
wanted to be an interior designer or a builder. I
looked at both, and at that time, for some reason,
I thought you could only be a builder if you
do an apprenticeship, and I was like, ugh, I'm nearly thirty.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I don't want to do an apprenticeship.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
I don't think I can do that. So I chose
interior design. And then I also went and found myself
a mentor, so I didn't want to just rely on
my gut because you know they can be risky business.
We're talking about big money. So I sought out a
mentor to help me learn the process to make my
next project even more successful. And that's when I came
(08:48):
across Build Her Collective. So I mentioned build her Collective
early too when we're talking before, but so build her
collective effectively, they helped women build. And Rebecca, who founded
to Build Her Collective, also has a course for women
who were wanting to renovate for profit and they had
just started out, so they'd only been around six months
when I spoke with her and we had a chat
and I joined her course and I haven't looked back.
(09:11):
So I have that group around me as well, and
I have that mentor.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
And did you do a course in interior design as well?
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (09:18):
Yeah, yeah, So I did a course in interior design.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yeah that was great.
Speaker 5 (09:21):
So I did my diploma. So it's a two year
full time course. Wow, So I ended up Yeah, I
left my corporate job. Initially I was job sharing and
then realized it was so much work to do the
interior design course that I gave up all my way
work and went into the course full time, which is great. Yes,
So it was a great, great course, really enjoyable. I
learned a hell of a lot during the process, but
(09:42):
nothing beats on the job learning.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, and having the brains of a mentor, I think
is a really cool concept. And it's amazing, isn't in
this day and age how many resources are out there.
We talk about this a lot on the Shoes on
the Money podcast, but it is so easy on some
level to educate yourself, like with the Build Her course.
I know the Three Birds have a course as.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
They do, which is pretty popular at the design school.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah, the design school. It's really cool that you can
learn the fundamentals and if you're maybe not in the
position where you are able to connect with someone who
can give you that one on one that there are
access to courses and groups minded people who are willing
to share their knowledge. Yes, absolutely, which is really amazing.
You mentioned before that your first property was a cosmetic change.
(10:28):
I feel like we probably should define for people the difference.
So what actually is a cosmetic change and how does
that differ from another kind of change that you might make.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
Yeah, so cosmetic is basically working within the envelope of
the existing house, so you're not really adding on an extension,
you're not going up you know, you're not demolishing, You're
working within that existing structure and you're improving. It doesn't
necessarily mean that there's no structural changes in a cosmetic renovation.
Often you do need to move some walls to kind
of increase that really nice flow if you want open
(10:57):
player living or usually you know, the older houses which
is where you're kind of buying into the market need
those updates. But a cosmetic renovation is essentially that. So
you're kind of working on the floor plan to really
enhance it and make it functional and have really great circulation,
but you're also looking to update kitchens or kitchen and bathrooms,
(11:17):
maybe adding on suites separate toilets. You're kind of working
with what is in demand for that area and what
people and what buyers kind of want, and you're using
that to kind of guide you as to how you'll
update an interior based on a cosmetic renovation.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
And what's the other version then of renovation.
Speaker 5 (11:34):
It's more I guess more structural, So that would probably
be like a renovation extension. You might keep the first
four rooms of a house and knock off the back.
Normally the older houses, you know, they have a pretty
ugly lean to where they've just kind of added on
a back section, so you usually you might knock those
off and you do it an extension, or you might
go up and that's a much bigger and longer process
(11:56):
than a cosmetic renovation.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yeah, and so would I be right in thinking that
cosmetic is generally what people are looking at when they're
flipping because it's shorter and I would imagine less expensive.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
Yes, and no, I mean renovating a kitchen, regardless if
you do an extension, is still going to cost you
the same, whether it's cosmetic or it's a part of
a bigger renovation flip. Like cosmetic renovations, yes, they can
be quite quick, they can be quite lucrative. But that's
not to say the bigger ones, even though you spend
more time doing them, can't be just as lucrative.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Yeah, okay, how do you begin?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
This is the point at which I think a lot
of people, including me, would probably get really overwhelmed. How
do you figure out how much it's going? Because you
just said, you know, kitchen, same same, whether you're doing
a big or a correl, like your fees are going
to be roughly the same if you're looking at purchasing
a house, because you've got to do your feasibility before
you buy the house. You've got to figure out if
(12:51):
it's going to work with your buyd jet and all
of these things. But then that means that it's not
as if you have you know, you don't own it,
so you can't walk through, you can't live in this face.
You can't figure out a lot of those things. And
if at your first time doing something, yes, I would
imagine that would make it very, very hard.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
It is, how do you even begin.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
To figure out what those costings could potentially look like?
Speaker 5 (13:14):
You're right, you know, like most things, you do learn
as you do. And you know, I've learned an incredible
amount over the last five years, you know, compared to I.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Was very green.
Speaker 5 (13:22):
Yeah first again, compared to where I am now, I
could tell you off the top of my head how
much it might cost you to do a kitchen and
a bathroom and all these different things as I've learned.
But I guess you'll often find me chatting to trades
and you know, I'm talking to them about their processes,
and I'm talking to them about their costs. Your biggest
expense is your labor component. Your labor, your materials and
your windows usually sit the highest, and your joinery. Sorry,
(13:46):
So it's talking to trades. It's talking to them about
what their their costs are to do. You know, certain
things you know you might be looking at in terms
of your materials, you need to consider whether you'll be
going for budget materials, mid range, high en They'll all
have an impact on your final cost. So I mean
it's as you start to build, you build those relationships
(14:06):
and you can have those conversations if you're kind of
just really starting out. And I still do it now
even though I'm five years in. I get three quotes
on everything. So even when I'm just if I was
looking at a property to flip, I might just give
like a trader call or I might call a tyler,
or I might call a cabinet maker and just talk
about what I'm looking to do and how much do
(14:29):
they think that might cost. So it is very much
about building relationships. I'd never you know, it's you don't
want to just call someone and go, hey, how much
is it going to cost me to do this? You
kind of got to get them involved in the story
and get them involved in your vision and build that
relationship with them. So it can take time. But another
one is if you're using an architect or an interior designer,
they generally will know this, A good one will know
(14:51):
this information. They'll be able to tell you how much
it's going to cost you to do a kitchen or
a bathroom, knowing what materials, if your mid range or
high end, or what they are. So that's you know,
that's just another kind of touch point. I guess when
you're starting out.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
But I wish there was a.
Speaker 5 (15:06):
Really easy answer to go, Oh, you can just google
how much is it? You can just google how much.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
It might not be it may not be accurate, but
it will give you a.
Speaker 5 (15:13):
Ballpark to kind of work off from the beginning, but
also surround yourself. I guess with like minded people, like
find a group that does this. Find a group, you
know Facebook groups, there's so many.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
They're an amazing thing as well a community to have
a small plug. We have a property playbook group if anyway,
lots of people talking about all things property, including renovating
and flipping. But I would imagine there would be groups specifically,
potentially even by state Is that right, like alban girls
flipping houses.
Speaker 5 (15:42):
Oh maybe I'm not true, but I like that idea
that Yeah, that's a great idea I'll start. Yeah, definitely,
groups of people doing the same thing out there, and
everyone's going to learn somewhere, and people usually more than
happy to share that information.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
How necessary is it you said? You know, designers and
architects can be really helpful. How necessary would you consider
them to be?
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Like?
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Can people figure it out on their own the first
time by themselves? Is it possible or is it something
that you should be leaning on someone's expertise.
Speaker 5 (16:12):
Yeah, I guess you could figure it out yourself the
first time, but it's probably going to cost you a
lot of money, Yeah, a lot of heartache and a
lot of energy.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
They are.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
So there's interior designers and architects out there who can
do the job for you. But I also offer design
consultations for this very reason. So I found that people
don't want to engage a designer to do their entire home.
They really want to be part of that process and
have a collaborative experience. So doing consultations where they can
kind of pick my brain for an hour and a half,
(16:40):
we can talk through the process, they get started off
on the right foot. Yep. They know, you know, what
trades they need to talk to, They know how to
get their quotes, they know how to kind of get
their materials and their finishes. And I think it's imperative
to have someone that can help you in that, particularly
if you've never done it before, because it can cost
you thousands, thousands of dollars more then it would be
(17:02):
to spend you know, a thousand dollars on a consultant
and they set you up on the right foot. Yeah,
and then you can kind of go from there and
have touch points along the way as you go through
your project.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
And every dollar I guess counts because it does. Every
dollar that you overspend is a dollar that's coming off
your bottom line, that's right.
Speaker 5 (17:19):
Yeah. And at the end of the day, the outcome
is you want to make money. Yeah, you know, that's
the whole point. You want to make money on the project.
But it's okay to pay professionals to help you to
do that. You don't have to know it all yourself.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
I really like that.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
All right, let's go to a really quick break. I
have a million more questions to ask you, but we'll
take a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Alrighty guys, welcome back.
I'm here with interior designer Alison Lewis talking all about
flipping properties, which is something that I feel like is
a little fun and topical. There's a lot of platforms
and Instagram accounts out there now that show the journey
(17:50):
and so many Yeah, and I feel like for me,
that's really exciting and it looks really fun, but it's
very overwhelming, which is what this episode here today is
meant to hopefully help you with. So I want to know, Allison,
the desire to make a property look really premium. The
whole point is that you want this house to look
as beautiful as possible, because the more expensive something looks
(18:12):
the most one's willing.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
To pay for them.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yes, how do you go about balancing that desire with
the fact that you want to be spending as little
as possible, Like it's too completely competing outcomes. I feel like,
are there any little tricks or tips that you've got there?
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (18:28):
I mean, look, it is a balancing act, it's exactly that.
But you know, we all like pretty things, yes, especially
as designers when we're renovating for profit, it's, you know,
we have to make tough decisions. You know, it's very
easy to design with these amazing stones and these amazing tiles,
like yeah, you know, it's putting those together, but it's
putting you know, keeping your timelines and your budgets in
(18:49):
place is really quite the challenging part of any build.
So I'll often ask myself through a process, you know,
is you know this three hundred dollars a square meter
tile to give me a return on my investment than
if I were to swap it out for a more
affordable tile. And the answer usually is no, the three
hundred dollars tile isn't. But there's a time and there's
(19:12):
a place for things. So what you're doing as you're
moving through the house is you want to create these
moments and you want to create this whale factor. And
there have definitely been instances where I've used a three
hundred dollars a square meter tile, but it was in
my kitchen. So my kitchen is really my kitchen sales home.
It sells a house. Kitchen's in the bathroom sell your house.
So it's knowing where to splurge and where to pull
(19:33):
back and save, and that could be in the same room.
So you know, I could have a three hundred dollars
a square meter of tile, but then I've really pulled
back on my stone and I've kind of found a
stone that looks you know, limestone for example, looks quite expensive,
but it's very affordable. So it's knowing your materials and
doing the research and knowing what things cost and then
pairing those together to get your whale factor.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Are there certain areas like the limestone where you think,
you know, generally speaking, it's better, like it's a good
spot to say, but there's certain areas where you go, oh,
like I don't know, handles, you can you know, cheap
handle can look really nice as compared to ni commens
if one. Are there things like that that you find
yourself going back to again and again as a good
cost saving option.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
Like in terms of you know, I had an interesting
conversation with my cabinet maker the other day, Like, cabinet
tree is one of your biggest expenses in your house.
It's everywhere and you think about it. So knowing what
material to use or to make your cabinet tree from
can have a huge impact on your cost generally speaking,
you know, you work from down from like a malamine
to a laminate and then vinyl wrap and two packs
(20:39):
or two packs like a painted finish yep. So it
kind of like as you kind of work through those materials,
the price goes up. And most people can't tell the
difference between a timber look lamina and a timber venier,
but the price difference is like thousands really yes.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Okay, yeah, yeah, so I have the difference between the
two for people like me who've got no idy.
Speaker 5 (20:57):
Yes, So timber Lamina is a laminate products, so it's
made from laminate. They make it like technology is amazing.
It can look like timber. You find the right ones,
they can look like timber. Some can look stripy, so
I tend to avoid those. But if they've got that grain,
usually they do, and they can add a texture to them, now,
which is amazing.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
That's cool.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
So it even feels a little bit like timber. Yeah,
and then your timber venosa are literally a slice.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Of like real timber that's been put on the Yeah, it's.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
Been put on. It's put on your cabinet tree and
then gets sealed and then it gets two packed in it.
You know, there's a whole process to it, which is why.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
It's more expensive as well. That's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
During your process, have you had any horror experiences? Because
I feel like the more this episode is going along,
what I'm hearing is it's a great thing to do
and it can be really fun, it can be really special.
But it seems like there are a lot of pitfalls.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Yes, there's a lot of pieces.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah. Have you ever fallen down one? Has anything ever
gone really wrong for you?
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Look, there's always challenges always, but I like to look
at them as challenges.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Yeah, like that.
Speaker 5 (22:00):
This is why contingency is so important when we build
as well, because you know, in the North Coat property
I'm working with now, I use basically my entire contingency
just before I got out of the ground. Yeah, and
that means I hadn't even started building yet and my
contingency was gone. We had big volcanic rock that we
had to work with. So there's always something, I guess.
You know the Q property where you guys did your recording,
(22:22):
It looked beautiful, but we were we were building that.
It was called the House from Hell.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
You would not know that, you would not know what
went wrong.
Speaker 5 (22:30):
It was just it's not so much what went wrong
as the house itself. In your old houses particularly is
you just never know what you're going to get when
you start pulling things down and taking plaster board off.
And we ripped up some tiles at the back, and
I was really excited because it had original Baltic pine
floorboards and I was like, great, I'll just polish the
market or save me some money. I literally stepped on
him and my foot.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Fell straight through.
Speaker 5 (22:52):
So they had been demolished by termites. The turmites weren't
active anymore. They'd been treated.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, but they'd done it. Did you keep building inspection
done and it just didn't pick it up.
Speaker 5 (23:02):
I didn't get it done on this one because I
knew it was a cosmetic renovation. Look, I would recommend
you do, like that's probably a learning for me as well.
But I have had them done before and they haven't
picked up active termites. So really yes, Yeah, so the
elf and property did have active termites, it wasn't. We
did two building inspections they weren't picked up, so, oh
my goodness.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
So, I mean it was always recommended, definitely to get
a professional to check these things, and technology has come
a long way since ten years ago when we bought Elsham. Yeah,
i'd like to think it can be picked up now.
But yeah, even with Q, Like the walls were solid brick,
which is great for insulation and noise reduction, but often
they weren't built straight in the nineteen thirties, so it's
(23:43):
terrible for your builder when he's trying to fix timber
towe them because they're crumbling. Yeah, and they're not straight.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yeah yeah, yeah, nightmath. But you can overcome it, like
the house came out the other side. When you're renovating
and you're doing it for profit, you know, depending on
the level of work that you're doing, that's going to
impact how long your REHNO takes.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
Right. How do you account for the market changing.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Because particularly over the last few years, the market has
been really somewhat volatile. Shot up and then it came down,
and you know, all of the experts are saying that
it should hopefully stabilize with the rates changes and stuff,
but you really just never know. How do you kind
of account for that during the process.
Speaker 5 (24:28):
Yeah, Look, it can be tricky, but I think it's
really important that you have a strong feasibility that's going
to allow for some market fluctuation. When you're doing your feasibility,
that return on your investment, you want that to be
fairly beefy and chunky. If it's really low, then it's
there's too many things that could go wrong or that
could suck up that profit really quickly. So you want
(24:50):
to have a good kind of beefy return on investment
in your feasibility, so that allows for some market fluctuation.
But I think often you're buying and you're selling in
this market, so I don't think the market moves as
quickly as this last kind of eighteen months is probably
not the best, not the best example, but generally speaking,
you do buy and sell in the same market, so
you've it kind of works out when you look at
(25:12):
it that way. But I think also that buildability comes
into it too. So when you're designing an easy to
build house and it's quick and it's uncomplicated, it means
you can turn it around much quicker and you can
have it back on the market.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yep.
Speaker 5 (25:25):
So just knowing how your house is built and when
you're designing, you know what's the easiest way to build
it it's going to save you time and it's going
to allow you to get it back onto that market.
But I guess and if you trust the process and
you trust the numbers, at the end of the of
the project, if the market's gone, you know, just completely
gone and it's no longer feasible, or your return on
(25:48):
investment's low, you can also it's okay to go, Okay, well,
I've got this really beautiful renovated house. I might wait
a year, I might live in it, I might rent
it out. It's not such a bad thing to be
able to live in somewhere, to live somewhere really.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Beautiful, Yeah, for a little while.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Enjoy your working, Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 5 (26:06):
Yeah, And you've got to appreciate all the hard work
that you do because it is hard work.
Speaker 4 (26:10):
Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
If you are renovating cosmetically, how likely is it that
you live in the property, because you know, depending on
your financial situation, depending on your feasibility, I would assume
that that would be one way that you definitely could
save a lot of money occupying well renovating, rather than
you having to pay rent and then pour money into
a house that currently isn't returning anything.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
How is there like a certain point like if you
are renovating your bathrooms, like don't live there because you're
not going to have a bathroom or can you do
it stage by staying do it?
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Yeah, you should do.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
I think it depends financially where you're at. Yeah, I've
done both. I've lived through two renovations. Okay, not sure
i'd do it again.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
I was going to say.
Speaker 5 (26:50):
You have to not be okay with dust and dirt
and yeah, but yeah, it depends on where like financially
where you ask. You know, when we were doing those
are for us, we had to live in them. You know,
there were stages where we were doing the bathrooms we
didn't have bathrooms.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
We got an airbnb for five weeks.
Speaker 5 (27:07):
Yeah, while our bathrooms were being done, and when the
kitchen was being done it was during summer. I literally
had a barbecue at the back and I would cook
every hand on the barbecue at the back because we
didn't have a kitchen. So it's where I guess financially,
where you sit in that whether you can afford to
move out. But I know so many people who you know,
are keeping maybe keeping the first four rooms. They convert
(27:28):
one into a kitchen.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
Oh that's very smood.
Speaker 5 (27:30):
Yeah, so they bring in the oven, they bring in
the dishwasher.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Because you could just move the ones that you have, right.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
That's right.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
You can move the cabinetry in there. And I know
lots of people have done that successfully. So and there's
nothing wrong with doing it in stages. You know, state
I had for the Q property, we did it in
three stages. We had stage one, then we would save
for stage two, then we'd save for stage three.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
That's a really good point. So you know we're saying,
or we said before that. Obviously, when you're pupping, ideally,
the sooner you can get it back on the market
the better. However, if you're approaching not a huge budget,
you can do it in stages, and particularly I imagine if
you're living there, it would make it a lot easier
because you would be spending on rent.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
I presume that's right.
Speaker 5 (28:09):
Otherwise, anyway, unless you you got your parents, do I
know lots of people who move in with their parents. Yeah,
but if you've got a family with a couple of
young kids, you know, and that might not.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Be possible for you.
Speaker 5 (28:18):
So I guess it's it's don't be pressured to stretch
yourself unnecessarily to get it all done in one go. Yeah,
just do what works for you because that's the best way.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
You know.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
It can.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
Like you said, there's just so much out there. It
can feel really overwhelming. There's different ways that everyone does it,
but it really just has to work for you and
work for you financially and work for your family needs
and your personal needs.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Yeah, is there a ballpark on how many could you
do in a year? Like if someone wanted to go
pedal to the medal and like I want to flip
properties and like this like kind of like what you did.
I say, this is you know, I want to leave
my job. I want to give it a go to
make this potentially a career or and investomer process or whatever.
Speaker 4 (28:57):
How quickly can you do them?
Speaker 5 (28:59):
It depends I think it really depends first on your
capital because it's expensive to buy homes. Yep, sure your
risk appetit. Yeah, it's you know, how many homes do
you want to buy it?
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Once?
Speaker 5 (29:09):
You know, there's always factors you won't know that will
pop up. So it depends on you and your drive.
So I guess you know, how how much energy do
you have to do.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Yeah, because it's an exhausting process, right, particularly when you're
managing a life outside of it.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
That's right.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
And most people are either working full time or part
time while they're doing this to get you know, they're
footing the door and build because the building capital is
it's not a quick process. It takes time. You know,
we've done it over five years, and over that five
years now I have the luxury have been able to
do it full time.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
So you're building.
Speaker 5 (29:42):
Capital and you're doing things, you know, slowly to begin with,
it's a step by step so but also by the
same token, running and designing projects can be all consuming. Yeah,
Like so I think it's really important to give yourself
a break in between to rejuvenate and get your energy back,
get your creativity bank, and also just kind of enjoy
(30:03):
the process. So you know, sometimes it's easier said than done,
but enjoying that process as you go. For me, I
only do one a year. That's enough for me, and
it's usually a bigger renovation. It's not a smaller one.
But you know, it could be that you do like
a big renovation and then you decide, you know, what
I'm going to do just a small cosmetic one next, just.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
To have a bit of a break.
Speaker 5 (30:25):
Yeah, and then you go back into the big one again.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
Yeah, okay, very cool.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
So and I mean, I guess it all comes down
to we keep saying it's a very personal process. There's
no one size fit's all. Unfortunately, I wish we could
give everyone the perfect print answer. But that makes a
lot of sense. And before we go, I just wanted
to ask one more big picture question. I suppose what
are the big things that we should be keeping in
(30:49):
mind when we are preparing to flip. So if someone's
listening to this episode and they've gone, yeah, I'm going
to do it. They've done their due diligence, they've got
the property, they're ready to go, what do they kind
of need to keep in mind that prep stage.
Speaker 5 (31:01):
You need to keep an open mind. Yeah, being flexible
in your mindset is going to save you so much
heartache through the process because things don't go to plan.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
They never will.
Speaker 5 (31:12):
And that's okay, Like, you need to be okay with
the fact that you might have had a vision at
the beginning and that vision might change due to factors
that are out of your control. And most of the
things are out of your control, so you need to
be flexible as you go along. I'm often, you know,
sometimes I have to redesign bathrooms halfway through a project.
Speaker 4 (31:29):
I couldn't handle the stress.
Speaker 5 (31:31):
But you know, but it's fine because I've got an
open mind and I'm remaining flexible, and I know that
building doesn't always go to plan. So yeah, just that
That's probably my biggest thing is just have that open mind,
be flexible, try and approach everything with some humor. It
goes a really long way, and you know there will
be stressful moments, but know that you will get through them.
(31:52):
Just I guess, have the right professionals. Surround yourself with
the right people that can help you when things do
get a little bit unstuck and keep you on track,
and just have you right team with.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
The property buying squad. We talk about it all the time,
and I think that is a perfect place to leave
this episode. Thank you so much for sharing your insight.
Sure it was a very interesting to get to pick
your brain. If people do want to get in touch
with you, you said before you offer consultations, I do, Where
can they find you?
Speaker 5 (32:17):
Yes? So I do consultations and I do interior design
here interior Design so they can find me at www
dot Allisonmillisonteriors dot com dot au or on Instagram at
Allison Laws.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Interiors Amazing And if you want to find us, we
are also on Instagram and we have the Facebook group
we mentioned earlier, so search Property Playbook aus to find us.
Just before we head off, let's quickly wrap the boring
but important stuff. The advice shared on the Property Playbook
is generally in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances.
The Property Playbook exists purely for educational purposes and should
not be relied upon to make an investment or a
(32:49):
financial decision. But I think that's about it for today, guys,
so thank you for tuning in and we'll talk to
you in our next episode. Bye,
The Property Playbook would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians
of the lands of where this podcast is recorded. There
were wondry people of the cooler nations acknowledging the culture,
the history, and the connection to the lands of what
we call home. Let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello and welcome to The Property Playbook, the podcast where
we take you from the A to V of all
things property. My name is Jessica Ricky and I would
really really like to own my own home one day,
but until then, I have lots of experts helping me
all along my journey. Today I have the amazing Alison Lewis,
who is an interior designer and a very experienced renovator
(00:50):
or flipper or all of the above. I think you
just wear so many hats. So thank you for coming
to join us today.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
Today.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
We're going to be talking all about flipping, which, if
you haven't heard the term before, is the concept of
purchasing a property, ideally for a relatively low price, modifying it,
and then selling it.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
For a profit.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
That's right, Yeah, So to begin with, what should we
be looking for when we're trying to find a property
to flip.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Okay, I guess the first thing.
Speaker 5 (01:19):
Like most things, everything has a process, So buying a
home has a process, and there's a process involved when
you're looking to renovate for profit or flip a house essentially.
But I guess when it comes to flipping or renovating
for profit, there's a few extra steps as part of
your process, and ones that you may not necessarily consider
if you were just buying like your family home or
(01:39):
you're forever home. So the things like location, streetscape, neighborhood,
they're all still really really important. How close is it
to train station, how close is it to the high street, cafes,
et cetera. So they're still really important factors. But then
I guess you're delving a little bit deeper knowing that
the outcome of this purchase is, you know, to add
value and to renovate and to make a profit. So
(02:02):
you want to do that probably as quick as you can.
You don't want to be caught up in councils, and
you don't want to be caught out by not having
checked if there's a heritage overlay, for example, or if
there's an easement running through the property. If you're planning
to put a pool in there. So there's a few
extra factors that you might look at in terms of
council regulations. What's going to activate a planning permit If
you're un less than you know, three hundred square meters,
that activates a planning permit for some councils. So there's
(02:24):
a few extra steps you take there. And then there's
also I guess looking at future planning and infrastructure. Some
are going to go be able to tend story apartment
building across the road, So you're looking at those sort
of things as part of your due diligence.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
Yep, we love that word here on.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
And due diligence.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
Obviously is really important when you buy a house, and
it's also really important when you're looking to buy one
to flip. But I think the biggest part of it
is actually your feasibility. So what I mean when I
say your feasibility is these are your numbers. So you're
literally working out how much it's going to cost you
to do the works, how much is construction, how much
you'll need to get plans permit. It's architects, building designer,
(03:02):
interior designer, landscaping.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Pool no pool.
Speaker 5 (03:06):
So you're literally putting all of these numbers into a spreadsheet,
which is called a feasibility. You've got your holding costs
to consider how long the project's going to take. You've
got your selling costs, and you've also got your buying costs.
A lot of people forget that the buying costs your
stamp duty actually forms part of your overall return on investment.
So there's some of the extra things that you're looking
for when you're looking to flip a property, and you know,
(03:28):
when you do your feasibility, it can be like everyone,
it could be really difficult not to get emotionally attached
to a house, like I think, even when you're looking
to flip it, you still do have that emotional draw
and that's obviously really important because you want people to
walk in no matter how much you change it that
you still could have feeling and a vibe from a house.
So it's really important that if you know where emotions
(03:49):
come into play, you don't let your numbers lie in
your feasibility, so you don't fudge it so it works out.
You know, just don't light to yourself, because if the
numbers don't stack up, you really have to be prepared
to walk away. Yeah, and I think you know, in
the words of many real estate agents, there's always another life,
like once in a lifetime opportunity when it comes to
real estate, so there will be another house, So just
(04:11):
being prepared to kind of walk away is really important.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah, that's a really good point speaking of the real
estate agents. When you're looking to purchase house, should you
be disclosing that information to an agent because I know
sometimes people say, you know, if you're intending on looking
for an investment property, people have different opinions on whether
you should or should not disclose up. Yeah, you know
it's going to impact their view of like what you're
(04:34):
prepared to do in terms of your spend all those
sorts of things. Should you be up front with them
and tell them that you are ultimately looking to renovate
to make profit.
Speaker 5 (04:42):
I think you need to read the room sometimes, Like
obviously building a relationship with the real estate agent, it's
only going to beneficial to everyone, so you know, knowing
what motivates your vendor. Do they need a quick settlement?
Are they looking for a long settlement? Is that a
decease of state? That sort of information you gain from
speaking with the real estate agent's going to help you
potentially if you want to make an early offer, so
you know what motivates them, which is more likely to
(05:04):
kind of secure the property quicker for you. But I
guess when you're talking about how much to disclose, look,
no vendor wants to hear that an interested party is
going to come in and rip out their bathroom and
their kitchen. So you've got to find You've got to
I guess find that line on how much.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
You're prepared to say.
Speaker 5 (05:20):
But equally, when you're looking at these houses to flip,
they usually are full of potential, and that's pretty clear,
and the real estate agent will always be like, oh,
it's full of potential, and you know, you can walk
through with a vision and it's got great bones, and
you can talk about that with the real estate agent.
But I also like to ask real estate agents what
comparable properties that are fully renovated, what are they sold
(05:40):
for down the road, And they'll start to get an
idea that you are looking to renovate the house. You know,
I don't necessarily disclose and I'm looking to flip it,
but I will talk about what comparable properties are selling
for and my interest in renovating, and this is the
first time I've renovated.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
But most good real.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
Estate agents want to know who they're dealing with, and
I often find that they're pretty receptive and willing to
share that information with you. And at the end of
the day, like their goal is obviously to get the
best price for their indoor but if they can also
get another sale down the track because they know that
you're going to flip that property.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
That's such a good point.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
It's a bit of a win win for everyone.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah, you might be willing to work a little bit
harder for you in the hope that you'll come back,
that's right, Which you don't have to, right.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
I know you don't have to.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
You can still if you purchase somebody, you absolutely are
still entitled to you want to sell.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
But if you have a really good rapport with this
agent and you've got a great relationship and you like
the way they work to sell you that property, then
you're more likely to engage them down the track to
sell your property for you as well.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Absolutely, Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I want
to talk about you for a minute. Oh, okay, you're fabulous.
Can you tell me how did you begin with renovatingcause
you've done quite a few properties, have many.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Of you done at this point?
Speaker 5 (06:51):
So I'm up to my fourth at the moment, You're
up to my fourth and I've got my fifth in planning.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Oh my god. Yeah, it's so fun. How did you
get started? Did you?
Speaker 4 (07:01):
And where did you learn?
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Right? Because I think it's a big thing, and for
someone like me, the excitement of flipping is really fun
because I like the idea of the creative process. But
I would not have the first clue on where to begin.
I wouldn't know how even to begin researching it. So
what was that journey like for you? How did you
decide that was what you wanted to do?
Speaker 5 (07:22):
Yeah, I mean I've always loved property since I was
really young. Like I was that kid who cut out
the houses in the Herald Sun real estate magazine and
stuck them in a scrapbook at like seven years old,
So that that was me. I always knew I loved property.
I didn't know for a really long time where I
wanted to sit within that property. I worked in corporate finance,
(07:42):
and you know, when we bought our house in Eltham,
that was kind of like my turning point.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
I knew I wanted to.
Speaker 5 (07:49):
We bought it with the intention that we would do
it all ourselves and we would do a cosmetic renovation
and eventually down the track we would sell it. I
had no ideas about feasibilities, and I had no ideas
about construction costs. I kind of went off my gut
to do that, and it worked out really well because
when we sold, you know, we broke the square meter
each record. Yeah, so that was really exciting. That was
very validating, I guess for me as well. So I
(08:10):
kind of made two decisions when that happened. The first
one was I decided to leave the corporate world and
become an interior designer. I actually didn't know if I
wanted to be an interior designer or a builder. I
looked at both, and at that time, for some reason,
I thought you could only be a builder if you
do an apprenticeship, and I was like, ugh, I'm nearly thirty.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I don't want to do an apprenticeship.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
I don't think I can do that. So I chose
interior design. And then I also went and found myself
a mentor, so I didn't want to just rely on
my gut because you know they can be risky business.
We're talking about big money. So I sought out a
mentor to help me learn the process to make my
next project even more successful. And that's when I came
(08:48):
across Build Her Collective. So I mentioned build her Collective
early too when we're talking before, but so build her
collective effectively, they helped women build. And Rebecca, who founded
to Build Her Collective, also has a course for women
who were wanting to renovate for profit and they had
just started out, so they'd only been around six months
when I spoke with her and we had a chat
and I joined her course and I haven't looked back.
(09:11):
So I have that group around me as well, and
I have that mentor.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
And did you do a course in interior design as well?
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (09:18):
Yeah, yeah, So I did a course in interior design.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yeah that was great.
Speaker 5 (09:21):
So I did my diploma. So it's a two year
full time course. Wow, So I ended up Yeah, I
left my corporate job. Initially I was job sharing and
then realized it was so much work to do the
interior design course that I gave up all my way
work and went into the course full time, which is great. Yes,
So it was a great, great course, really enjoyable. I
learned a hell of a lot during the process, but
(09:42):
nothing beats on the job learning.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, and having the brains of a mentor, I think
is a really cool concept. And it's amazing, isn't in
this day and age how many resources are out there.
We talk about this a lot on the Shoes on
the Money podcast, but it is so easy on some
level to educate yourself, like with the Build Her course.
I know the Three Birds have a course as.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
They do, which is pretty popular at the design school.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah, the design school. It's really cool that you can
learn the fundamentals and if you're maybe not in the
position where you are able to connect with someone who
can give you that one on one that there are
access to courses and groups minded people who are willing
to share their knowledge. Yes, absolutely, which is really amazing.
You mentioned before that your first property was a cosmetic change.
(10:28):
I feel like we probably should define for people the difference.
So what actually is a cosmetic change and how does
that differ from another kind of change that you might make.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
Yeah, so cosmetic is basically working within the envelope of
the existing house, so you're not really adding on an extension,
you're not going up you know, you're not demolishing, You're
working within that existing structure and you're improving. It doesn't
necessarily mean that there's no structural changes in a cosmetic renovation.
Often you do need to move some walls to kind
of increase that really nice flow if you want open
(10:57):
player living or usually you know, the older houses which
is where you're kind of buying into the market need
those updates. But a cosmetic renovation is essentially that. So
you're kind of working on the floor plan to really
enhance it and make it functional and have really great circulation,
but you're also looking to update kitchens or kitchen and bathrooms,
(11:17):
maybe adding on suites separate toilets. You're kind of working
with what is in demand for that area and what
people and what buyers kind of want, and you're using
that to kind of guide you as to how you'll
update an interior based on a cosmetic renovation.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
And what's the other version then of renovation.
Speaker 5 (11:34):
It's more I guess more structural, So that would probably
be like a renovation extension. You might keep the first
four rooms of a house and knock off the back.
Normally the older houses, you know, they have a pretty
ugly lean to where they've just kind of added on
a back section, so you usually you might knock those
off and you do it an extension, or you might
go up and that's a much bigger and longer process
(11:56):
than a cosmetic renovation.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yeah, and so would I be right in thinking that
cosmetic is generally what people are looking at when they're
flipping because it's shorter and I would imagine less expensive.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
Yes, and no, I mean renovating a kitchen, regardless if
you do an extension, is still going to cost you
the same, whether it's cosmetic or it's a part of
a bigger renovation flip. Like cosmetic renovations, yes, they can
be quite quick, they can be quite lucrative. But that's
not to say the bigger ones, even though you spend
more time doing them, can't be just as lucrative.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Yeah, okay, how do you begin?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
This is the point at which I think a lot
of people, including me, would probably get really overwhelmed. How
do you figure out how much it's going? Because you
just said, you know, kitchen, same same, whether you're doing
a big or a correl, like your fees are going
to be roughly the same if you're looking at purchasing
a house, because you've got to do your feasibility before
you buy the house. You've got to figure out if
(12:51):
it's going to work with your buyd jet and all
of these things. But then that means that it's not
as if you have you know, you don't own it,
so you can't walk through, you can't live in this face.
You can't figure out a lot of those things. And
if at your first time doing something, yes, I would
imagine that would make it very, very hard.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
It is, how do you even begin.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
To figure out what those costings could potentially look like?
Speaker 5 (13:14):
You're right, you know, like most things, you do learn
as you do. And you know, I've learned an incredible
amount over the last five years, you know, compared to I.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Was very green.
Speaker 5 (13:22):
Yeah first again, compared to where I am now, I
could tell you off the top of my head how
much it might cost you to do a kitchen and
a bathroom and all these different things as I've learned.
But I guess you'll often find me chatting to trades
and you know, I'm talking to them about their processes,
and I'm talking to them about their costs. Your biggest
expense is your labor component. Your labor, your materials and
your windows usually sit the highest, and your joinery. Sorry,
(13:46):
So it's talking to trades. It's talking to them about
what their their costs are to do. You know, certain
things you know you might be looking at in terms
of your materials, you need to consider whether you'll be
going for budget materials, mid range, high en They'll all
have an impact on your final cost. So I mean
it's as you start to build, you build those relationships
(14:06):
and you can have those conversations if you're kind of
just really starting out. And I still do it now
even though I'm five years in. I get three quotes
on everything. So even when I'm just if I was
looking at a property to flip, I might just give
like a trader call or I might call a tyler,
or I might call a cabinet maker and just talk
about what I'm looking to do and how much do
(14:29):
they think that might cost. So it is very much
about building relationships. I'd never you know, it's you don't
want to just call someone and go, hey, how much
is it going to cost me to do this? You
kind of got to get them involved in the story
and get them involved in your vision and build that
relationship with them. So it can take time. But another
one is if you're using an architect or an interior designer,
they generally will know this, A good one will know
(14:51):
this information. They'll be able to tell you how much
it's going to cost you to do a kitchen or
a bathroom, knowing what materials, if your mid range or
high end, or what they are. So that's you know,
that's just another kind of touch point. I guess when
you're starting out.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
But I wish there was a.
Speaker 5 (15:06):
Really easy answer to go, Oh, you can just google
how much is it? You can just google how much.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
It might not be it may not be accurate, but
it will give you a.
Speaker 5 (15:13):
Ballpark to kind of work off from the beginning, but
also surround yourself. I guess with like minded people, like
find a group that does this. Find a group, you
know Facebook groups, there's so many.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
They're an amazing thing as well a community to have
a small plug. We have a property playbook group if anyway,
lots of people talking about all things property, including renovating
and flipping. But I would imagine there would be groups specifically,
potentially even by state Is that right, like alban girls
flipping houses.
Speaker 5 (15:42):
Oh maybe I'm not true, but I like that idea
that Yeah, that's a great idea I'll start. Yeah, definitely,
groups of people doing the same thing out there, and
everyone's going to learn somewhere, and people usually more than
happy to share that information.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
How necessary is it you said? You know, designers and
architects can be really helpful. How necessary would you consider
them to be?
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Like?
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Can people figure it out on their own the first
time by themselves? Is it possible or is it something
that you should be leaning on someone's expertise.
Speaker 5 (16:12):
Yeah, I guess you could figure it out yourself the
first time, but it's probably going to cost you a
lot of money, Yeah, a lot of heartache and a
lot of energy.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
They are.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
So there's interior designers and architects out there who can
do the job for you. But I also offer design
consultations for this very reason. So I found that people
don't want to engage a designer to do their entire home.
They really want to be part of that process and
have a collaborative experience. So doing consultations where they can
kind of pick my brain for an hour and a half,
(16:40):
we can talk through the process, they get started off
on the right foot. Yep. They know, you know, what
trades they need to talk to, They know how to
get their quotes, they know how to kind of get
their materials and their finishes. And I think it's imperative
to have someone that can help you in that, particularly
if you've never done it before, because it can cost
you thousands, thousands of dollars more then it would be
(17:02):
to spend you know, a thousand dollars on a consultant
and they set you up on the right foot. Yeah,
and then you can kind of go from there and
have touch points along the way as you go through
your project.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
And every dollar I guess counts because it does. Every
dollar that you overspend is a dollar that's coming off
your bottom line, that's right.
Speaker 5 (17:19):
Yeah. And at the end of the day, the outcome
is you want to make money. Yeah, you know, that's
the whole point. You want to make money on the project.
But it's okay to pay professionals to help you to
do that. You don't have to know it all yourself.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
I really like that.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
All right, let's go to a really quick break. I
have a million more questions to ask you, but we'll
take a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Alrighty guys, welcome back.
I'm here with interior designer Alison Lewis talking all about
flipping properties, which is something that I feel like is
a little fun and topical. There's a lot of platforms
and Instagram accounts out there now that show the journey
(17:50):
and so many Yeah, and I feel like for me,
that's really exciting and it looks really fun, but it's
very overwhelming, which is what this episode here today is
meant to hopefully help you with. So I want to know, Allison,
the desire to make a property look really premium. The
whole point is that you want this house to look
as beautiful as possible, because the more expensive something looks
(18:12):
the most one's willing.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
To pay for them.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yes, how do you go about balancing that desire with
the fact that you want to be spending as little
as possible, Like it's too completely competing outcomes. I feel like,
are there any little tricks or tips that you've got there?
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (18:28):
I mean, look, it is a balancing act, it's exactly that.
But you know, we all like pretty things, yes, especially
as designers when we're renovating for profit, it's, you know,
we have to make tough decisions. You know, it's very
easy to design with these amazing stones and these amazing tiles,
like yeah, you know, it's putting those together, but it's
putting you know, keeping your timelines and your budgets in
(18:49):
place is really quite the challenging part of any build.
So I'll often ask myself through a process, you know,
is you know this three hundred dollars a square meter
tile to give me a return on my investment than
if I were to swap it out for a more
affordable tile. And the answer usually is no, the three
hundred dollars tile isn't. But there's a time and there's
(19:12):
a place for things. So what you're doing as you're
moving through the house is you want to create these
moments and you want to create this whale factor. And
there have definitely been instances where I've used a three
hundred dollars a square meter tile, but it was in
my kitchen. So my kitchen is really my kitchen sales home.
It sells a house. Kitchen's in the bathroom sell your house.
So it's knowing where to splurge and where to pull
(19:33):
back and save, and that could be in the same room.
So you know, I could have a three hundred dollars
a square meter of tile, but then I've really pulled
back on my stone and I've kind of found a
stone that looks you know, limestone for example, looks quite expensive,
but it's very affordable. So it's knowing your materials and
doing the research and knowing what things cost and then
pairing those together to get your whale factor.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Are there certain areas like the limestone where you think,
you know, generally speaking, it's better, like it's a good
spot to say, but there's certain areas where you go, oh,
like I don't know, handles, you can you know, cheap
handle can look really nice as compared to ni commens
if one. Are there things like that that you find
yourself going back to again and again as a good
cost saving option.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
Like in terms of you know, I had an interesting
conversation with my cabinet maker the other day, Like, cabinet
tree is one of your biggest expenses in your house.
It's everywhere and you think about it. So knowing what
material to use or to make your cabinet tree from
can have a huge impact on your cost generally speaking,
you know, you work from down from like a malamine
to a laminate and then vinyl wrap and two packs
(20:39):
or two packs like a painted finish yep. So it
kind of like as you kind of work through those materials,
the price goes up. And most people can't tell the
difference between a timber look lamina and a timber venier,
but the price difference is like thousands really yes.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Okay, yeah, yeah, so I have the difference between the
two for people like me who've got no idy.
Speaker 5 (20:57):
Yes, So timber Lamina is a laminate products, so it's
made from laminate. They make it like technology is amazing.
It can look like timber. You find the right ones,
they can look like timber. Some can look stripy, so
I tend to avoid those. But if they've got that grain,
usually they do, and they can add a texture to them, now,
which is amazing.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
That's cool.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
So it even feels a little bit like timber. Yeah,
and then your timber venosa are literally a slice.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Of like real timber that's been put on the Yeah, it's.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
Been put on. It's put on your cabinet tree and
then gets sealed and then it gets two packed in it.
You know, there's a whole process to it, which is why.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
It's more expensive as well. That's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
During your process, have you had any horror experiences? Because
I feel like the more this episode is going along,
what I'm hearing is it's a great thing to do
and it can be really fun, it can be really special.
But it seems like there are a lot of pitfalls.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Yes, there's a lot of pieces.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah. Have you ever fallen down one? Has anything ever
gone really wrong for you?
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Look, there's always challenges always, but I like to look
at them as challenges.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Yeah, like that.
Speaker 5 (22:00):
This is why contingency is so important when we build
as well, because you know, in the North Coat property
I'm working with now, I use basically my entire contingency
just before I got out of the ground. Yeah, and
that means I hadn't even started building yet and my
contingency was gone. We had big volcanic rock that we
had to work with. So there's always something, I guess.
You know the Q property where you guys did your recording,
(22:22):
It looked beautiful, but we were we were building that.
It was called the House from Hell.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
You would not know that, you would not know what
went wrong.
Speaker 5 (22:30):
It was just it's not so much what went wrong
as the house itself. In your old houses particularly is
you just never know what you're going to get when
you start pulling things down and taking plaster board off.
And we ripped up some tiles at the back, and
I was really excited because it had original Baltic pine
floorboards and I was like, great, I'll just polish the
market or save me some money. I literally stepped on
him and my foot.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Fell straight through.
Speaker 5 (22:52):
So they had been demolished by termites. The turmites weren't
active anymore. They'd been treated.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, but they'd done it. Did you keep building inspection
done and it just didn't pick it up.
Speaker 5 (23:02):
I didn't get it done on this one because I
knew it was a cosmetic renovation. Look, I would recommend
you do, like that's probably a learning for me as well.
But I have had them done before and they haven't
picked up active termites. So really yes, Yeah, so the
elf and property did have active termites, it wasn't. We
did two building inspections they weren't picked up, so, oh
my goodness.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
So, I mean it was always recommended, definitely to get
a professional to check these things, and technology has come
a long way since ten years ago when we bought Elsham. Yeah,
i'd like to think it can be picked up now.
But yeah, even with Q, Like the walls were solid brick,
which is great for insulation and noise reduction, but often
they weren't built straight in the nineteen thirties, so it's
(23:43):
terrible for your builder when he's trying to fix timber
towe them because they're crumbling. Yeah, and they're not straight.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yeah yeah, yeah, nightmath. But you can overcome it, like
the house came out the other side. When you're renovating
and you're doing it for profit, you know, depending on
the level of work that you're doing, that's going to
impact how long your REHNO takes.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
Right. How do you account for the market changing.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Because particularly over the last few years, the market has
been really somewhat volatile. Shot up and then it came down,
and you know, all of the experts are saying that
it should hopefully stabilize with the rates changes and stuff,
but you really just never know. How do you kind
of account for that during the process.
Speaker 5 (24:28):
Yeah, Look, it can be tricky, but I think it's
really important that you have a strong feasibility that's going
to allow for some market fluctuation. When you're doing your feasibility,
that return on your investment, you want that to be
fairly beefy and chunky. If it's really low, then it's
there's too many things that could go wrong or that
could suck up that profit really quickly. So you want
(24:50):
to have a good kind of beefy return on investment
in your feasibility, so that allows for some market fluctuation.
But I think often you're buying and you're selling in
this market, so I don't think the market moves as
quickly as this last kind of eighteen months is probably
not the best, not the best example, but generally speaking,
you do buy and sell in the same market, so
you've it kind of works out when you look at
(25:12):
it that way. But I think also that buildability comes
into it too. So when you're designing an easy to
build house and it's quick and it's uncomplicated, it means
you can turn it around much quicker and you can
have it back on the market.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yep.
Speaker 5 (25:25):
So just knowing how your house is built and when
you're designing, you know what's the easiest way to build
it it's going to save you time and it's going
to allow you to get it back onto that market.
But I guess and if you trust the process and
you trust the numbers, at the end of the of
the project, if the market's gone, you know, just completely
gone and it's no longer feasible, or your return on
(25:48):
investment's low, you can also it's okay to go, Okay, well,
I've got this really beautiful renovated house. I might wait
a year, I might live in it, I might rent
it out. It's not such a bad thing to be
able to live in somewhere, to live somewhere really.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Beautiful, Yeah, for a little while.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Enjoy your working, Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 5 (26:06):
Yeah, And you've got to appreciate all the hard work
that you do because it is hard work.
Speaker 4 (26:10):
Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
If you are renovating cosmetically, how likely is it that
you live in the property, because you know, depending on
your financial situation, depending on your feasibility, I would assume
that that would be one way that you definitely could
save a lot of money occupying well renovating, rather than
you having to pay rent and then pour money into
a house that currently isn't returning anything.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
How is there like a certain point like if you
are renovating your bathrooms, like don't live there because you're
not going to have a bathroom or can you do
it stage by staying do it?
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Yeah, you should do.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
I think it depends financially where you're at. Yeah, I've
done both. I've lived through two renovations. Okay, not sure
i'd do it again.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
I was going to say.
Speaker 5 (26:50):
You have to not be okay with dust and dirt
and yeah, but yeah, it depends on where like financially
where you ask. You know, when we were doing those
are for us, we had to live in them. You know,
there were stages where we were doing the bathrooms we
didn't have bathrooms.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
We got an airbnb for five weeks.
Speaker 5 (27:07):
Yeah, while our bathrooms were being done, and when the
kitchen was being done it was during summer. I literally
had a barbecue at the back and I would cook
every hand on the barbecue at the back because we
didn't have a kitchen. So it's where I guess financially,
where you sit in that whether you can afford to
move out. But I know so many people who you know,
are keeping maybe keeping the first four rooms. They convert
(27:28):
one into a kitchen.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
Oh that's very smood.
Speaker 5 (27:30):
Yeah, so they bring in the oven, they bring in
the dishwasher.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Because you could just move the ones that you have, right.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
That's right.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
You can move the cabinetry in there. And I know
lots of people have done that successfully. So and there's
nothing wrong with doing it in stages. You know, state
I had for the Q property, we did it in
three stages. We had stage one, then we would save
for stage two, then we'd save for stage three.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
That's a really good point. So you know we're saying,
or we said before that. Obviously, when you're pupping, ideally,
the sooner you can get it back on the market
the better. However, if you're approaching not a huge budget,
you can do it in stages, and particularly I imagine if
you're living there, it would make it a lot easier
because you would be spending on rent.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
I presume that's right.
Speaker 5 (28:09):
Otherwise, anyway, unless you you got your parents, do I
know lots of people who move in with their parents. Yeah,
but if you've got a family with a couple of
young kids, you know, and that might not.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Be possible for you.
Speaker 5 (28:18):
So I guess it's it's don't be pressured to stretch
yourself unnecessarily to get it all done in one go. Yeah,
just do what works for you because that's the best way.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
You know.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
It can.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
Like you said, there's just so much out there. It
can feel really overwhelming. There's different ways that everyone does it,
but it really just has to work for you and
work for you financially and work for your family needs
and your personal needs.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Yeah, is there a ballpark on how many could you
do in a year? Like if someone wanted to go
pedal to the medal and like I want to flip
properties and like this like kind of like what you did.
I say, this is you know, I want to leave
my job. I want to give it a go to
make this potentially a career or and investomer process or whatever.
Speaker 4 (28:57):
How quickly can you do them?
Speaker 5 (28:59):
It depends I think it really depends first on your
capital because it's expensive to buy homes. Yep, sure your
risk appetit. Yeah, it's you know, how many homes do
you want to buy it?
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Once?
Speaker 5 (29:09):
You know, there's always factors you won't know that will
pop up. So it depends on you and your drive.
So I guess you know, how how much energy do
you have to do.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Yeah, because it's an exhausting process, right, particularly when you're
managing a life outside of it.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
That's right.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
And most people are either working full time or part
time while they're doing this to get you know, they're
footing the door and build because the building capital is
it's not a quick process. It takes time. You know,
we've done it over five years, and over that five
years now I have the luxury have been able to
do it full time.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
So you're building.
Speaker 5 (29:42):
Capital and you're doing things, you know, slowly to begin with,
it's a step by step so but also by the
same token, running and designing projects can be all consuming. Yeah,
Like so I think it's really important to give yourself
a break in between to rejuvenate and get your energy back,
get your creativity bank, and also just kind of enjoy
(30:03):
the process. So you know, sometimes it's easier said than done,
but enjoying that process as you go. For me, I
only do one a year. That's enough for me, and
it's usually a bigger renovation. It's not a smaller one.
But you know, it could be that you do like
a big renovation and then you decide, you know, what
I'm going to do just a small cosmetic one next, just.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
To have a bit of a break.
Speaker 5 (30:25):
Yeah, and then you go back into the big one again.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
Yeah, okay, very cool.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
So and I mean, I guess it all comes down
to we keep saying it's a very personal process. There's
no one size fit's all. Unfortunately, I wish we could
give everyone the perfect print answer. But that makes a
lot of sense. And before we go, I just wanted
to ask one more big picture question. I suppose what
are the big things that we should be keeping in
(30:49):
mind when we are preparing to flip. So if someone's
listening to this episode and they've gone, yeah, I'm going
to do it. They've done their due diligence, they've got
the property, they're ready to go, what do they kind
of need to keep in mind that prep stage.
Speaker 5 (31:01):
You need to keep an open mind. Yeah, being flexible
in your mindset is going to save you so much
heartache through the process because things don't go to plan.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
They never will.
Speaker 5 (31:12):
And that's okay, Like, you need to be okay with
the fact that you might have had a vision at
the beginning and that vision might change due to factors
that are out of your control. And most of the
things are out of your control, so you need to
be flexible as you go along. I'm often, you know,
sometimes I have to redesign bathrooms halfway through a project.
Speaker 4 (31:29):
I couldn't handle the stress.
Speaker 5 (31:31):
But you know, but it's fine because I've got an
open mind and I'm remaining flexible, and I know that
building doesn't always go to plan. So yeah, just that
That's probably my biggest thing is just have that open mind,
be flexible, try and approach everything with some humor. It
goes a really long way, and you know there will
be stressful moments, but know that you will get through them.
(31:52):
Just I guess, have the right professionals. Surround yourself with
the right people that can help you when things do
get a little bit unstuck and keep you on track,
and just have you right team with.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
The property buying squad. We talk about it all the time,
and I think that is a perfect place to leave
this episode. Thank you so much for sharing your insight.
Sure it was a very interesting to get to pick
your brain. If people do want to get in touch
with you, you said before you offer consultations, I do, Where
can they find you?
Speaker 5 (32:17):
Yes? So I do consultations and I do interior design
here interior Design so they can find me at www
dot Allisonmillisonteriors dot com dot au or on Instagram at
Allison Laws.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Interiors Amazing And if you want to find us, we
are also on Instagram and we have the Facebook group
we mentioned earlier, so search Property Playbook aus to find us.
Just before we head off, let's quickly wrap the boring
but important stuff. The advice shared on the Property Playbook
is generally in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances.
The Property Playbook exists purely for educational purposes and should
not be relied upon to make an investment or a
(32:49):
financial decision. But I think that's about it for today, guys,
so thank you for tuning in and we'll talk to
you in our next episode. Bye,
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Monster: BTK
'Monster: BTK', the newest installment in the 'Monster' franchise, reveals the true story of the Wichita, Kansas serial killer who murdered at least 10 people between 1974 and 1991. Known by the moniker, BTK – Bind Torture Kill, his notoriety was bolstered by the taunting letters he sent to police, and the chilling phone calls he made to media outlets. BTK's identity was finally revealed in 2005 to the shock of his family, his community, and the world. He was the serial killer next door. From Tenderfoot TV & iHeartPodcasts, this is 'Monster: BTK'.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.