June 8, 2026 • 36 mins
Few things land harder than your child coming home and saying, “No one played with me today.”
In this episode, Simon and Lachy are joined by parenting educator Gen Muir to talk about the friendship stuff that can make parenting feel especially helpless - being left out, intense best-friend phases, playground politics, and knowing when your child needs comfort, coaching, or a little more support.
HOSTS
Simon Pryce
Lachlan Gillespie
GUEST
Gen Muir
You can find out more about Gen and Connected Parenting here.
And to try High Low Buffalo at home, you can pick up a pack of cards here.
PRODUCERS
Produced by The Wiggles and Mylk Media
Madeline Joannou
Nick Webb
For more Wiggly fun, visit:
The Wiggles 🌏 http://thewiggles.com
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Facebook 🔴 http://facebook.com/TheWiggles
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About The Wiggles' Podcast - Wiggle Talk
Welcome to Wiggle Talk, the ultimate parenting podcast brought to you by The Wiggles! With over 30 years of experience in early childhood education and a global legacy of entertaining and educating millions of children, The Wiggles are now stepping into the world of parenting to share their journey as parents themselves. This podcast is designed for parents seeking expert advice, relatable stories, and practical tips on raising toddlers.
In Wiggle Talk, you'll join Simon and Lachy, beloved members of The Wiggles, as they explore the real-life challenges and joys of parenting. From handling toddler tantrums to nurturing your child’s early development, Simon and Lachy invite guests to share compelling conversations that will provide valuable insights that every parent can relate to. Whether you're struggling with sleep routines, picky eating, or simply looking for fun and educational activities to do with your little ones, this podcast has got you covered.
Every episode also features founding Wiggle and early childhood expert Anthony Field, who will answer listener questions on topics ranging from child behaviour to effective parenting strategies. With decades of experience and a passion for helping children thrive – as well as being a father of three - Anthony offers trustworthy advice to help you navigate the complexities of raising a toddler.
As parents, we know that the journey can be both rewarding and challenging. That's why Wiggle Talk is here to support you every step of the way. Whether you're a new parent or have been on this journey for a while, you'll find a wealth of information and inspiration in each episode. Plus, you’ll hear from famous friends of The Wiggles who share their own parenting experiences and tips.
So, tune in to Wiggle Talk and join The Wiggles as they swap their skivvies for candid conversations about parenthood. Let's work out this parenting thing together, with a little help from the experts in early childhood education!
About The Wiggles
For over three decades, The Wiggles have been a beloved cornerstone of children's entertainment, captivating and educating millions of preschoolers—and their parents—around the world. Known for their high-energy performances, catchy songs, and colourful characters, The Wiggles have built a global legacy rooted in the power of music and movement to inspire early childhood learning.
With a mission to make education fun, The Wiggles create content specifically designed for pre-K, preschool, kindergarten, and nursery school age groups. Their unique blend of music, dance, and educational content not only entertains but also helps children understand the world around them. Generations of fans who grew up watching The Wiggles are now sharing that same joy with their own children.
The Wiggles’ impact is truly global: they’v
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Wiggles acknowledged the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia
and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay
our respects to elders, past, present and emerging.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to Wiggle Talk podcaster parents. I'm Simon, I'm the
Red Wiggle and I am six foot four one hundred
and ninety two odds centimeters.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Oh, and I have Lachland Gillespian.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
You like them? I do that.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I think.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
You've done it eighty percent of the time in introduction.
I never get sick of it. I never will. I
am Lachlan the Purple Wiggle. I am six foot right on.
I think these country boots on maybe a little bit
more one hundred and eighty five centimeters. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yes, Well, last week we had Jen Muir in the
studio talking about sibling rivalry, all the fighting, the fairness,
the jealousy and what's really going on underneath it. And
while we were talking about relationships inside the home, we
realized there was another whole conversation we want to have
with her, and that's about the relationships children are building
outside the home.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Yes, so today Jen is back to talk about friendships
because at some point friendships start to really matter. It's
not just I played with someone today. It becomes that's
my best friend, or they didn't want to play with me,
or they don't want to be my friend anymore. Holy Dooley.
As a parent, that can be really hard to watch
because you're not there in the playground. You don't always
(01:30):
know exactly what's happened, and you can't just step in
and fix it the way you might want to. But simo,
before gen comes in.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
What do you got to say to yourself? You know
what I want to say. Yes, we have a pool heater.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Right, Yeah, that's very going to be useful soon.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, but it's a gas heater and with the events
of the world, gas is getting very expensive. The problem
with the gas heater is, and we have figured this
out through the UK tour, the gas heater has a
mind of its own. The gas heater which is run
by an app and you'd put timers on, so if
(02:09):
you're a morning swimmer, you could set the timer for
five am and then the pull be warm at six
am when you want to go for what you can
do all this time of thing the timers are off,
the heater is off, and yet it turns itself on.
And so I think the whole time we're in the UK,
this gas heater was just having its own little party
(02:31):
and turning itself on and heating the pool for weeks
and weeks on end when we weren't even there, and
we've realized this has been going on. No one can
quite understand what's happening. Wow, and I'm just waiting for
the bill.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Does that have anything to do with daylight savings? No?
No bos are out, No, no, just literally.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Randomly like it just crikey, you know, I'll open the
back door and I'll hear that.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
I think, No, it's on again, And is it It
really works?
Speaker 4 (02:58):
Well?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah, it really well.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
What temperatures are taken?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Oh, you can set it to anything of like thirty
degrees or something like wow. Yeah, but it's got a
mine of its own. And that's an idea in this
day and age. No gas, No it's not.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Maybe you should rip it out here, I thought, sol Oh, okay, have.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
You ever did you ever grow? We had solar heating?
We had a pool when we were little and had
solar heating. They put little rubber pipes on the roof.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Like the black.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, black tubing never had. Oh you're in Brisbane, it's hot, Well, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
It's still. There's a period now where you don't want
to jump in because it's quite chilli. As soon as
the night's chill down, so does the pool.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
What do they say? First world?
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Probably let's get started. Jed Bwer is the founder of
Connected Parenting. She is a parent educator, a peri natal social.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Well, I was going to say, I'm glad you had
that word.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Mother before boys add a very familiar voice on Wigill Talk. Today,
we're talking about children's friendships outside the family, making friends,
being left out, best friend dramas, friendship breakups, and how
to know when to step in and when to just
hang back.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Because this is one of those parenting stages where you
suddenly realize your child has a whole social world that
you're not fully part of. You get pieces of the story,
usually at the end of the day, often when everyone's
tired and you're trying to work out is this normal
friendship stuff? Is my child really hurting? Do I need
to speak to the teacher or do I just need
(04:26):
to help them through it?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
So today Jen is going to help us make sense
of all that what friendships mean to our children, what
to say when they come home upset, and how to
support them without taking over completely. So let's welcome Jen
to wiggle Talk. Let's do it, Jen, Welcome back to
(04:50):
wiggled Talk.
Speaker 5 (04:50):
Thank you for having me take it away. Welcome back
to my podcast.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
I have too wonderful guests with me me today.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
We're talking on children's friendships today. Yeah, and this is
going to I'm already just going to set it up.
This is going to get me this one today. But
do you remember the first time one of your children
came home really really hurt by something, and then you're
thinking to yourself, all, well, here we go.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
This is yeah, I do.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
And I don't think there is anything harder as a
parent than when our kids have a hard moment socially,
them being excluded or picked on, or you know, something's
gone wrong for them, or they say nobody played with
me at lunch or whatever, and as a parent, our
just heart drops out. And I think it's that something
(05:38):
hard socially has happened to our kid, but also that
we're not there to help, you know. I think that
feeling of helplessness really kicks in. So yeah, I do remember.
I think particularly the year my elders started KINDI he
struggled a lot to kind of find friends or kind
of fit in and had lots of moments like that.
And yeah, it's just one of the hardest things as
(06:00):
a parent.
Speaker 5 (06:01):
I think it sends us into a spin.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
If your child's having trouble making friends as a parent,
is there something we can do to encourage them or
gives them some tools to understand how they can start
to talk to other children.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
So, first of all, like it's good to sort of
start with a sense of at war age. Is this
stuff really important when a kid's forming friendships, because sometimes
people are worrying that their two year old or their
three year old doesn't have close friends, and I'm like, well.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
They don't really need any.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
In that it's good for kids to have social interactions.
But in the really early years, kids are really their
biggest friendship is their parents, or their careers, or their
grandparents or their educators.
Speaker 5 (06:42):
They're really kind of learning.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
Off those big people in their lives, and they're often
doing what we call parallel play in the early time.
Speaker 5 (06:50):
Remember, yeah, parallel.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Play, so they look like they're playing, but really that
is doing their own things side by side is kind
of often what's really happening. And then depending on where
they're at. But from three four five onwards and into
the school years, then friendships start to play a more
important role for kids. And that's where I mean for
a lot of us, it's when our kids maybe start
(07:12):
school that they might come home and say, no one
would play with me today.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
Or I was alone at lunch.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
And I think that's the moment most of us as parents,
like we just think, oh my goodness. So first of all,
what's the instinct of most of us when that happens.
Speaker 5 (07:29):
I think it's something like this, tell me their names.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
I am going to call their parents, or I am
calling the teacher, or sometimes we go to that place
of maybe if it brings up something for us in
maybe we don't want for our kids what happened to.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
Us at school. We might say, you know, I told
you if you didn't take your turns with people that
you'd get excluded, like we try.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
To teach them, and actually none of that is what
our kids need in that moment. The first thing that
we all always want to do, and this is my
biggest advice to parents who have one of those moments
is stop, pause, and repeat back what you hear. So
start with I'm hearing that you couldn't find anyone to
play with at lunch today, and I can see by
(08:15):
your face it has been a tough day.
Speaker 5 (08:18):
And I would pause.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
At that point because most of what we're going to
try to say is probably fixing, solving, jumping in and
giving advice, and until we really listen to that experience,
our kid's really not in a place to hear any
of that, and it's not super useful.
Speaker 5 (08:34):
The reason this matters so much is that when our.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
Kid does go through a tough day, even if that
experience so for many kids in KINDI, they will come
home and say, no one would play with me today,
and you talk to the teacher and they're like they
were playing with people on the play equipment all of lunch.
And yet for a kid even a minute of not
being able to find a friend can feel like an hour.
Their sort of sense of what that felt like can
(08:58):
be pretty whacked, and for them that minute felt really tough.
So we may not need to take any action but
to stop and let our child know, Hey, I get
that that would have felt so hot. Do you know,
sometimes I feel lonely when I'm with friends too, or
I've felt left out off, felt that feeling. I know
what that's like, and we kind of do nothing else.
(09:19):
I reckon nine out of ten times, that's all kids need.
That is all they need. And then every now and then,
if it feels really hard and that they are really struggling,
then I might sort of say, I wonder what we
can do tomorrow if you felt like you couldn't find
any friends, or I wonder what we could do tomorrow
if Sarah told you that you're not allowed to play?
(09:42):
What might we do if this same thing happened again?
And that's where we can start to give a bit
of advice and do a bit of coaching.
Speaker 5 (09:48):
But with that question, I wonder I try to.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Let our kids lead, because our kids often have the
best solutions within them, and they might say, do you
know what, I'm just gonna play with someone else and
You're like, yeah, great idea.
Speaker 5 (10:02):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yes, I love the girls come home. At the moment,
it's like the best friend, oh straight out, so oh
you've got and that it changes the next week. Yeah,
it's the other I have the best friend, which is
really cute. But I had a moment pick up the
other day was one girl ran out and gave me
a big cuddle, and the other one just ran off
with the friends. And then that when they gave me
a cuddle, went out and just her head dropped playing
(10:26):
tag or something silly. Yeah, I was like, oh my god,
it's just it was so yuck. But then exactly that moment,
it was that for about thirty seconds, and then she
just kind of went up the hill, played by herself
for a bit and then ran back to the group
and was joined in, smiling and happy. And you can
see how that moment would have felt really long for them. Yeah,
(10:47):
but then they were kind of fine running back in
and working at it themselves. But it is such a
yucky feeling.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
Yeah, I think it's good not to watch. Its important.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
It's important as parents also to think about what, particularly
with friendships and kids, what's coming up for you, because
sometimes we have a memory of feeling different or left
out or excluded, and sometimes we're quick to place that
experience we had on our kid, and we may or
(11:16):
may not have that right, you know, like sometimes our
kids are like, you know, was that hard when this
happened and they're like, no, I was doing my own thing,
and then other times they are really affected by those things.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, the twin thing is probably adds another layer of
complexity to it at times because your girls, I guess
they would call themselves best friends even though they're sisters.
But then another now with kindergarten, with school, then other
friends are going to start to come into play, and
that much, it's so true, it'd be a really difficult thing.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Yeah, yeah, I can see how that's said to someone
this morning. That's when you can see why split them up,
but actually start at some point becoming a really good idea.
Speaker 5 (11:53):
Yeah they split up now.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
No they're not. And the teacher already said for next year,
she doesn't see any reason why you would split them
up because they do kind of are okay individually in
the classroom setting, which is lovely. Yeah that's great that
it might be all good. But yeah, that's and that
would happen with siblings, too close siblings.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
But yeah, I think it is hard because they are together,
and then if they form different friendships and then one
of them gets invited to something and the other one's not,
that's really tricky.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
But yes, you're hoping in kindy and you one. People
are just like including.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Ashua tends to form one solid friendship, which he has
done at kindergarten with a little friend of his, but
then he's not that interested in it in the group.
He just likes to find his person, which is a
nice thing, but I kind of I guess it concerns
me as well that he's not kind of putting himself
out there within the group more. He's just kind of
(12:47):
as his person.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
I think I remember worrying about that with my oldest.
He formed a very close friendship with one particular child
and I was a first time school mum and the
friend he'd made was the youngest of three boys, and
I said, should we be worried that they're only playing
with each other and not the wider agreement was just like,
oh girlfriend, No. But what I have come to realize
(13:08):
is that some kids are more comfortable or they're building
their strength in that more intimate one on one best
friend type friendship. They really get very interested in one person.
That person excites them. They have a common interest or
a common game that they play, and they do kind
of build those intense skills.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
Whereas other kids are better at the broader group.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
They're going with the flow or being a leader maybe,
and they're building those skills and at different stages they'll
dip into the other I think as well.
Speaker 5 (13:42):
With development.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Yeah, okay, if you notice if your child is coming
home regularly this I guess this is more a school
thing and saying that no one will play with me.
At what point, as a parent do you think, Okay,
we actually need to We've gone through the steps of listening,
we've understood. At what point as a pair, I do
think we need to actually try to facilitate something.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
I reckon if at any point that an emotion around
friendships is impacting your child's ability to eat, or sleep
or enjoy things they previously enjoyed. So if your kid
is saying I don't want to go to school, no
one will play with me, that's letting you know, okay,
we need to do more here. So there are two
(14:24):
things I would do. I would do some coaching at home,
and I'll talk about what I would do. But I
would also definitely sort of reach out, let the school know,
see what the teacher's perspective is.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
Our teachers are with our kids twenty four to seven.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
Sometimes it's a matter of them just stepping in and
facilitating a bit, but sometimes they can reassure us, actually,
this is what's happening, and there's something to worry about,
and it might be something else that's going on. One
of the best things I think we can do in
terms of coaching our kids, if they're having a repeated
struggle with joining, maintaining friendships, joining in groups, being included
(14:57):
in games, we want to sort of build on two things.
So one, I talk to my kids about being a
friend detective. And I love this idea, but I sent
my eldestin and I've done it with all of my
four boys ever since. When they're having a struggle point
and rather than saying just go play with someone nice,
I say, tomorrow, I want you to go to school
(15:17):
and pretend you are a friend detective. I want you
to just have that detective hat on and just look
around and see who can you notice that smiles at you?
Who can you notice that doesn't smile when you try
to join in? Who makes you feel good inside? Who
doesn't make you feel so good? You know? We're trying
to teach kids those cues of when people are excited
to be around us and when they're not being so nice,
(15:40):
and we might also have them look around for other
kids that are sitting on their own and not a
sort of included and anything as well, and that.
Speaker 5 (15:48):
Gives them perspective for others as well. So I did this.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
There was one stage where one of my kids, he
was coming home and he was constantly telling me how
he was trying to play with this one group of
kids and the other's sporty kids, and he wasn't that
sporty at the time.
Speaker 5 (16:03):
So I was like, okay, interesting choice.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
And he just kept trying to sort of join in,
and they'd say, look, you're allowed to stand on the
sideline and watch, but you can't join in. So he
would stand and watch every lunchtime. And as a parent,
you're going mate like, make another choice that you know,
it doesn't sound like they're very excited to see you.
And so I introduced this idea. You know, I sort
of said play with someone else. You know, all that
nothing worked. If you tell your kids that's not a
(16:26):
you know, go play with someone else, they're not going
to listen. But I introduced this idea of being a
friend detective, and it was his birthday party was coming up,
and he wanted to have them all to his birthday party.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
And I was thinking, okay, and I said, just go
and be a friend detective.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
Look at who welcomes you in, who's excited to see you,
you know, all of that stuff. Who makes you feel good?
Where do you feel calm? You know, you're just sort
of tuning into what's happening to anybody. And within about
four days he came home and goes, Mum, I've thought
about my birthday party.
Speaker 5 (16:51):
I'm not going to have those kids. I'm going to
have these five kids.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
They're all the ones that are always smiling when I approach,
who were happy to see me, who always let me
have a turn, and don't make me stand on the
sideline's let's groom. So it's that I think that idea
of kind of giving them the power to sort of
be this detective of who's kind to you is a
really good skill for kids to build up. Talking to
the teacher and seeing, well is something going on that's
(17:14):
out of your child's hand, and we need to sort
of step in and give kids a little bit of help.
When would I get help? You know, I would continue
if none of that was effective, then I would think
about some ot for my kid because it might be
that they're struggling to read social cues, you know, there
might be something we can build on with that, Or
there are awesome social skills courses you can do in
(17:34):
the school holidays as well, where your kid can just
go and learn how to speak up more in a group,
or how to take turns better. Sometimes our kids those
skills that are really helping them to go well in
social situations, like reading non verbal cues, or like being
able to take you're out in tip, you know, is
building those emotional skills, and we can give our kids
(17:55):
a bit of help with that. And the way that
I would talk to my kids about the idea of
going and doing a social skill course is just the
way we do ours swimming lessons to work on our swimming,
or we do maths tutoring to work on our mouths.
Sometimes we can do some friendship lessons to work on
how to make friends.
Speaker 5 (18:07):
Yeah, so I would just view it as a skill.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
If your child has formed a new friendship, But then
you do notice there is some behavioral changes from your child, yeah,
which you associate to that friendship. How do you negotiate
that one without trying to speak badly about another child
or a new friend, and work through.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
That the politics of parenting. Oh I'm not that good
at this. I a couple of things.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Don't do it? Stop? Don't you mean?
Speaker 5 (18:42):
Don't say that friend anymore? That that influenced?
Speaker 4 (18:45):
No kidding again, I would get my kid to think
about if something is not with it.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
Just say your child is hanging around someone and you.
Speaker 4 (18:52):
Notice that that kid is maybe not so kind to
other kids, and you think that's not us, Like, that's
not what I've taught you to do. Again, I would
use that detective lens, go and be a detective. Look
at the impact that your friend has on others, and
just have a notice. How does it make you feel
so when your friend tells so and so he can't play?
(19:13):
How does that feel inside you? Because often your kid
will go, actually, I get a big not in my stomach.
It doesn't feel good, Okay. And how does it feel
when you're with someone that lets anyone play? Yeah, that
feels a bit calmer. Once they start to identify what's
happening in their body, they can get better at it.
But the other thing we can do is practice at home.
So just say you're having a tricky situation in whatever regard.
(19:36):
One of the things that will be really hard for
kids is speaking up in the moment because it's a
lot of pressure, like they're trying to just manage themselves
not be the one being picked on, and then speaking up.
Speaker 5 (19:46):
It be really tricky.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
So just say they've got someone that's constantly saying you
can't play, or you're stupid, or they're being picked on,
which happens, you know to all of our kids. At
some stage. You might say, what are we going to
do next time your friend says, you know, whatever it is,
How can we sort of work on that in advance,
And we might have a practice where I'll be the
(20:09):
friend and my child can be them, or we can
role play and literally have a practice at standing up
for ourselves or saying that's not.
Speaker 5 (20:17):
Nice or you know, you can't tell me what to do,
or whatever it is.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
But actually teaching them how to speak up for someone
else or for themselves and practicing it in advance can
make a really big impact.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah, to look at how they're treating others and removes
it from your child, because your child is then looking
at how that other child is.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
Fostering that compassion and that noticing the impact, but also
noticing how does that make you feel?
Speaker 5 (20:43):
And often the goat not good? And what can you do?
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Practice saying hey, well the marrier, he can join in
or whatever, so they can practice speaking up. There was
a period where one of my kids was having a
really hard time where this one friend would just constantly,
you know, put him to call him names, point out
that he was slow or clumsy or whatever. We can
kind of be tempted to think, oh, that other child
(21:07):
is mean and a bad kid. That kid's not a
bad kid. It's just that something's not feeling great for
that kid. And the way kids process that sometimes is
to just put someone else down because they're worried everyone
will pick on them or whatever. But we can help
our kids with the ability to cope with that in
the moment. And so with my son, we practiced what
could we say back next time he's you know, just
picking on you relentlessly and it's feeling really annoying, And
(21:29):
we sort of worked out saying shut up might not
be good because he could get in trouble.
Speaker 5 (21:33):
And we worked out that maybe saying shut your pie hole.
Would would be.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
An okay thing to say that, you know, would it
get him in He was in about you four, would
it get him in trouble?
Speaker 5 (21:44):
Anyway? The next day they were they had to go
off to a.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
Swimming lesson and he was coming back and he was
trying to pick up his stuff and this kid.
Speaker 5 (21:51):
When look at you know, look at him.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
He can't even manage his staff, you know, he's so
unco and he said, you know, shut your piehole.
Speaker 5 (22:01):
And he got in trouble with the teacher.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
The teacher said, if you say that again, you're not
you know, you're going to be in trouble. And he
came home and he's really upset at me because he
was like, mom, like you said this would be okay
and you know, and I said, you know, I'm okay,
Like you know, it wasn't big trouble. It was just like,
don't speak like that. And he didn't like getting in trouble.
And I said, I'm okay with you getting in trouble.
I'm interested to see what happens. That kid did not
(22:24):
pick on him again, Like it was as simple as
pushing back a little and saying, shut your pie hole, dude,
and he just stopped. If that doesn't happen, and when
when picking on moves into bullying, So what is bullying
as opposed to that was not bullying, that was just
a kid being a bit of a pain. How do
we know it's bullying when it is targeted? When there
(22:47):
is a power difference, So if one kid for whatever
reason has more power over and when it is relentless,
like it's just ongoing, it's this constant power thing where
that bullying is tughting one child and it's really starting
to impact their sense of self and their self esteem.
We're always going to need to step in a the
(23:07):
school needs to be involved, and there needs to be
absolutely zero tolerance for that kind of stuff, and we
probably want to get support for our child depending on
the age. Young kids are like ot and social skills,
older kids psychologists, child psychologist and just talking through some
ways that they can process the emotions of that experience
but also build some.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Skills, particularly in the early years. I just love that
detective thing so much because I don't know if this
is right, but it is in some ways. Little friendships
at the start, it's easier to either find the cheeky,
naughty kid or just to be a bit silly yourself, Yeah,
because you feel like that's getting fast attention, and maybe
(23:47):
you say something funny and people laughing, you see, But
getting into the what it feels like for you and
then what you can see in other people just helps.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
So I think, yeah, we want our kids to be
kind and compare and considerate and all those great things.
But remembering it takes twenty seven years for the prefrontal
cortex to be fully formed, so our kids are meant
to make lots of mistakes in terms of how they
get on with siblings, in terms of how they behave,
and in terms of friendships. They're going to mate lots
(24:16):
and lots of mistakes. And I think it's how we
build those skills. And I love the detective thinks it's
a low pressure way of having them sort of realize
the impact they're having on others, realize how others are
impacting them, and then move in ways it's positive for them.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
And then it might also just stop that going down
the not so nice hopefully friendship lines where they just
fall into the group because you're just getting them away
early on looking out for that stuff. Going yep, just yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Probably in the old retirement village when the prefrontal lobe
of actus.
Speaker 5 (25:00):
These days like finally she was.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Took us off somewhere else. But if you can see
that the friendship is a bit unhealthy for your child,
but your child just keeps going back and keeps going
back for more, how do we intervene as a parent
in those circuits?
Speaker 5 (25:30):
Really tricky.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
I think we want to foster friendships that we see
as working better for our kid. And again, I know,
I know, I just narrate NonStop, and I'm going to
do some narrating. So I would set up a playdate
with a kid where I think that there is a
really healthy and great dynamic and wear a lot of
fun gets hat and I would then do a bit
of like I'm noticing when you know so and so
(25:53):
comes over, you guys have such a lot of fun,
And I'm noticing that he or she lets you have
ideas and you get to have a turn. How does
that feel when you're playing, you know, with that friend.
And again, we're just building that sense. Once kids become
aware a little bit cognitively, Yeah, it feels really good
because he lets me have a turn. And then by contrast,
(26:14):
they're going to notice and when you're playing with that
other friend and they don't let you ever have a turn,
how does that feel?
Speaker 5 (26:20):
Or you know, it's less than healthy.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
But friendships can also break up because kids just move
on and change, you know, the friendship groups that they're into.
One of my kids is a bit like yours in
that he makes very intense, you know, friendships that are
based around shared interests, and then suddenly there might be
just a new shiny friend over there. Suddenly we're interested
(26:42):
in someone else, and that's all he can talk about,
and it's just sort of Yeah.
Speaker 5 (26:46):
I think that that's a normal thing for kids to do.
They develop yeahs.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
At school the other day, Asher took one of his
little cuddly toys of him because he was he was
struggling that morning, and so you want to take in
the heaven in his bag and the little boy another
boy at his table or something sore in his bag
and called in and said, you're a baby. You were
such a baby. What would be a good response as
(27:10):
a parent. You know, that's just teasing, it's not bullying.
It's just one of those things. But he was obviously
wanted to talk to us about it because it obviously
hurt him. What would be the right kind of response
in those sort.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
Of moments, you know, I'd always start with, like, oh,
your friend called you a baby for having that toy
repeating it bag.
Speaker 5 (27:30):
I can tell that felt pretty awful.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
I can see by your face or the fact you're
crying or you're really sad about that.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
That did not feel good, did it.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
You might say that wasn't a nice thing to say
that your friend said, and I can see that it didn't.
Speaker 5 (27:45):
Feel great for you.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
I would start with that in that I might not
do anything more in that maybe that's a one off thing,
and kids are it's going to happen. My son got
a haircut this weekend and he went to school and
it was like really proud of it, and someone said,
you shouldn't have cut your haird that short.
Speaker 5 (28:04):
It doesn't look good, you know, And.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
And he's, you know, he's come home a bit deflated.
And you know, we could step in in every one
of these moments and sort of take action. But I
think the biggest thing we can let our kid know
is like, I get that that would have felt pretty awful.
These are the things that happen to our kids. Socially
that build frustration, tolerance, and resilience in these moments. But
(28:27):
if that was something that our child was just bringing
up again and again, or he suddenly was like, I
can't take my toy to school because I might get
called a baby, then we might go, Okay, well let's
talk about that, and we'll talk about what could we
do next time someone said something like that, And kids
can come up with something that they can say sometimes,
you know, one of the best things our kids can
say back if we're coaching, something they can just use
(28:49):
in the moment is just not cool. So it's pretty
It's not like, you know, you're not giving it a
lot of attention, you're not showing that you're sort of unflappable,
but you're calling out that is not nice. And so,
especially as kids get older, not cool, and that's the
way they can actually defend a friend as well. One
of the things I'm wanting for my boys is that
they kind of, you know, be men for others and
stand up for other people. And it can be really hard.
(29:12):
You know, kids don't necessarily at eleven, twelve or thirteen
want to saying.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
Hey, buddy, that is not so not you should talk
in kind ways, but if.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
One of their friends is being really unkind to someone,
they can go not cool.
Speaker 5 (29:23):
You know, it's just subtle, It's just a way of
sort of standing up.
Speaker 4 (29:26):
So again, sometimes we need to think about ways that
we can sort of script or equip our kids with
those little tools that they can use in the moment.
But also if that was ongoing, I would be letting
the teacher know and how to chat.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Yeah. Yeah. When does peer pressure start within children and friendships?
And is that something that established quite young or is
it more of it feels in my head, I feels
like a teenager. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:50):
I mean I think as kids grow into the tween
and teen years, the importance of us as the most
important thing in their world diminishous.
Speaker 5 (30:02):
And the importance of friends goes.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
That's why the earl is, you know, in your parenting
is so important because that's when they really care what
you think, and they really care about your approval and
your love.
Speaker 5 (30:14):
And your connection.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
As kids hit the tween is suddenly they're going to
care so much more what other people think and less
about what you think. So it's about that really normal
developmental stage of growing up and moving away from our
parents and out to the world. So we want kids
to do this. And one of the things kids will do.
If you look at groups of tweens and teens, you know,
(30:36):
especially actually girls and boys, they dress identically. Have you
noticed an pasts they're like like the girls like it'll
just be like, wow, did you guys get dressed together?
Speaker 5 (30:47):
Because it's true, you.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
Know, And so the biggest thing they're not going to
want to do in those years is stand out.
Speaker 5 (30:55):
And I think that's survival.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
Like you're really trying to put your head down and
just all like look.
Speaker 5 (31:00):
The same and get through.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
And that's kind of part of the process of pulling
away from parents, pulling into those teen years. And you know,
the biggest thing I think we can do as parents
to kind of how do we deal with peer pressure?
I think that we let our kids know that there
is nothing that they could ever do or say that
would make them less worthy of love or unlovable in
(31:23):
our eyes. There is nothing that they could tell us
that they've done that would make us love them less,
and that we'll always be on their team and there's
nothing we can't work out.
Speaker 5 (31:32):
And if we reinforce that.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
Message in the early years through being with them in
those moments where they're struggling with friendships and saying, let's
work on being a friend detective, and I'm in this
with you. I'm not flipping out. I'm kind of alongside you,
and I'm able to be with you in this emotion
you are modeling. I can be with you in the
tricky stuff, the uncomfortable stuff your son with, the you know,
(31:56):
the friends saying you're a baby, sitting with him and
going that mustn't have felt good is the groundwork that
sets your relationship up so that if at sixteen he's
been pressured to do something that he doesn't feel good
about but doesn't feel he's got the skills to navigate,
then he's able to come and say I'm having a struggle.
Speaker 5 (32:20):
I think that's pretty cool.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
The other way we help kids deal with peer pressure
is by setting boundaries throughout their childhood. So every time
we say I love you in the moon and back,
but it's bedtime, you're allowed to have emotions about that,
but my answer is no cookie, or you know we
are not having another playdate this weekend.
Speaker 5 (32:40):
I'm going to have some quiet time.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
Every time we set a boundary around that, staff our
kids are learning that you can have a very close
and connected relationship and love someone to the moon and
back and still not do everything they want you to do.
That is the way we model well, you can have
a friendship when you're thirteen, fourteen, fifteen and really care
about that friend, but still not want to do everything
(33:02):
they want you to do.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
So there are two ways I would do it again.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
That is so powerful. That way, that's what really you
want them to have.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, your whole life.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
Yeah, and I mean the the you know, not to
plug it again, but the high low buffalo cards.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Right.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
There is these questions that you can ask kids around friendships.
So there's twenty five questions on the lows and the
highs that all focus on those moments that happen in friendships.
And you can ask kids questions like how could you
stand up for a friend who is struggling to stand
up for themselves. It's an example of a question, and
we get kids answering like what would I do to
(33:46):
stand up for someone? In theory, that's practicing all those
skills around friendships and around peer pressure in a low
stakes way around the dinner table. That's another way that
we can practice that stuff, because all these things are
skills and we just build them a little bit.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yeah, and it's it's skills. It practice is the right word.
But it takes repetition for parents and for children to
instill into us. Totally so good, Thank you, jen La. Yeah,
(34:23):
after we speak with jen I'm always well quite reflective.
I always think about the times and moments where I'm
not actually managed to put those things in place and
in practice. And it's just such a good reminder I
think for everyone listening to or just a reminder of
how to navigate and how to work through certain situations.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
Absolutely, yeah, that the whole for a detective concept is
just so so good. I was a pick up the
other day and I just noticed one of the girls
said like something a bit cheeky to get a laugh.
And then the detective stuff is just so great. Not
only makes yourself reflect, but then what to look out
for in other people? And how does that when you're
(35:03):
watch an interaction, how does the other you know? It's
just it's so so good. Yeah, setting up early, how
did that actually make you feel?
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Then?
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Yeah, and like she spoke about if you do have
as a parent, your child has a friend you're not
too sure of remove it from your child by saying
how do you feel if that person treats someone that way?
And so you actually don't put it directly on your child,
but they start looking about outside of themselves and the
situation they've sort of found themselves.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Yeah, so good.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, put your little friend detective glasses on.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Yep, thank you Jen once again. If you loved listening today,
you can find out more about Jen and her work
at Connectedparenting dot com dot au and you can follow
her on Instagram at Connected Parenting Au.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
And she's got those wonderful high low Buffalo cards yes,
which I actually can't wait to try. I think dinner
times for your perfect time to do it after dinner
and just to get your children talking and understand things
that are going well, things that maybe aren't go sing well.
And you know, if you do have siblings, it's a
way that they can actually start probably understanding each other
(36:09):
and talking to each other. But look, if you love
the show, make sure you follow We will talk wherever
you're listening, so you know miss an episode.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Thanks for listening, see you next time. Bye bye, bye
bye
The Wiggles acknowledged the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia
and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay
our respects to elders, past, present and emerging.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to Wiggle Talk podcaster parents. I'm Simon, I'm the
Red Wiggle and I am six foot four one hundred
and ninety two odds centimeters.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Oh, and I have Lachland Gillespian.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
You like them? I do that.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I think.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
You've done it eighty percent of the time in introduction.
I never get sick of it. I never will. I
am Lachlan the Purple Wiggle. I am six foot right on.
I think these country boots on maybe a little bit
more one hundred and eighty five centimeters. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yes, Well, last week we had Jen Muir in the
studio talking about sibling rivalry, all the fighting, the fairness,
the jealousy and what's really going on underneath it. And
while we were talking about relationships inside the home, we
realized there was another whole conversation we want to have
with her, and that's about the relationships children are building
outside the home.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Yes, so today Jen is back to talk about friendships
because at some point friendships start to really matter. It's
not just I played with someone today. It becomes that's
my best friend, or they didn't want to play with me,
or they don't want to be my friend anymore. Holy Dooley.
As a parent, that can be really hard to watch
because you're not there in the playground. You don't always
(01:30):
know exactly what's happened, and you can't just step in
and fix it the way you might want to. But simo,
before gen comes in.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
What do you got to say to yourself? You know
what I want to say. Yes, we have a pool heater.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Right, Yeah, that's very going to be useful soon.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, but it's a gas heater and with the events
of the world, gas is getting very expensive. The problem
with the gas heater is, and we have figured this
out through the UK tour, the gas heater has a
mind of its own. The gas heater which is run
by an app and you'd put timers on, so if
(02:09):
you're a morning swimmer, you could set the timer for
five am and then the pull be warm at six
am when you want to go for what you can
do all this time of thing the timers are off,
the heater is off, and yet it turns itself on.
And so I think the whole time we're in the UK,
this gas heater was just having its own little party
(02:31):
and turning itself on and heating the pool for weeks
and weeks on end when we weren't even there, and
we've realized this has been going on. No one can
quite understand what's happening. Wow, and I'm just waiting for
the bill.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Does that have anything to do with daylight savings? No?
No bos are out, No, no, just literally.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Randomly like it just crikey, you know, I'll open the
back door and I'll hear that.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
I think, No, it's on again, And is it It
really works?
Speaker 4 (02:58):
Well?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah, it really well.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
What temperatures are taken?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Oh, you can set it to anything of like thirty
degrees or something like wow. Yeah, but it's got a
mine of its own. And that's an idea in this
day and age. No gas, No it's not.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Maybe you should rip it out here, I thought, sol Oh, okay, have.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
You ever did you ever grow? We had solar heating?
We had a pool when we were little and had
solar heating. They put little rubber pipes on the roof.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Like the black.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, black tubing never had. Oh you're in Brisbane, it's hot, Well, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
It's still. There's a period now where you don't want
to jump in because it's quite chilli. As soon as
the night's chill down, so does the pool.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
What do they say? First world?
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Probably let's get started. Jed Bwer is the founder of
Connected Parenting. She is a parent educator, a peri natal social.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Well, I was going to say, I'm glad you had
that word.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Mother before boys add a very familiar voice on Wigill Talk. Today,
we're talking about children's friendships outside the family, making friends,
being left out, best friend dramas, friendship breakups, and how
to know when to step in and when to just
hang back.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Because this is one of those parenting stages where you
suddenly realize your child has a whole social world that
you're not fully part of. You get pieces of the story,
usually at the end of the day, often when everyone's
tired and you're trying to work out is this normal
friendship stuff? Is my child really hurting? Do I need
to speak to the teacher or do I just need
(04:26):
to help them through it?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
So today Jen is going to help us make sense
of all that what friendships mean to our children, what
to say when they come home upset, and how to
support them without taking over completely. So let's welcome Jen
to wiggle Talk. Let's do it, Jen, Welcome back to
(04:50):
wiggled Talk.
Speaker 5 (04:50):
Thank you for having me take it away. Welcome back
to my podcast.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
I have too wonderful guests with me me today.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
We're talking on children's friendships today. Yeah, and this is
going to I'm already just going to set it up.
This is going to get me this one today. But
do you remember the first time one of your children
came home really really hurt by something, and then you're
thinking to yourself, all, well, here we go.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
This is yeah, I do.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
And I don't think there is anything harder as a
parent than when our kids have a hard moment socially,
them being excluded or picked on, or you know, something's
gone wrong for them, or they say nobody played with
me at lunch or whatever, and as a parent, our
just heart drops out. And I think it's that something
(05:38):
hard socially has happened to our kid, but also that
we're not there to help, you know. I think that
feeling of helplessness really kicks in. So yeah, I do remember.
I think particularly the year my elders started KINDI he
struggled a lot to kind of find friends or kind
of fit in and had lots of moments like that.
And yeah, it's just one of the hardest things as
(06:00):
a parent.
Speaker 5 (06:01):
I think it sends us into a spin.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
If your child's having trouble making friends as a parent,
is there something we can do to encourage them or
gives them some tools to understand how they can start
to talk to other children.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
So, first of all, like it's good to sort of
start with a sense of at war age. Is this
stuff really important when a kid's forming friendships, because sometimes
people are worrying that their two year old or their
three year old doesn't have close friends, and I'm like, well.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
They don't really need any.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
In that it's good for kids to have social interactions.
But in the really early years, kids are really their
biggest friendship is their parents, or their careers, or their
grandparents or their educators.
Speaker 5 (06:42):
They're really kind of learning.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
Off those big people in their lives, and they're often
doing what we call parallel play in the early time.
Speaker 5 (06:50):
Remember, yeah, parallel.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Play, so they look like they're playing, but really that
is doing their own things side by side is kind
of often what's really happening. And then depending on where
they're at. But from three four five onwards and into
the school years, then friendships start to play a more
important role for kids. And that's where I mean for
a lot of us, it's when our kids maybe start
(07:12):
school that they might come home and say, no one
would play with me today.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
Or I was alone at lunch.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
And I think that's the moment most of us as parents,
like we just think, oh my goodness. So first of all,
what's the instinct of most of us when that happens.
Speaker 5 (07:29):
I think it's something like this, tell me their names.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
I am going to call their parents, or I am
calling the teacher, or sometimes we go to that place
of maybe if it brings up something for us in
maybe we don't want for our kids what happened to.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
Us at school. We might say, you know, I told
you if you didn't take your turns with people that
you'd get excluded, like we try.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
To teach them, and actually none of that is what
our kids need in that moment. The first thing that
we all always want to do, and this is my
biggest advice to parents who have one of those moments
is stop, pause, and repeat back what you hear. So
start with I'm hearing that you couldn't find anyone to
play with at lunch today, and I can see by
(08:15):
your face it has been a tough day.
Speaker 5 (08:18):
And I would pause.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
At that point because most of what we're going to
try to say is probably fixing, solving, jumping in and
giving advice, and until we really listen to that experience,
our kid's really not in a place to hear any
of that, and it's not super useful.
Speaker 5 (08:34):
The reason this matters so much is that when our.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
Kid does go through a tough day, even if that
experience so for many kids in KINDI, they will come
home and say, no one would play with me today,
and you talk to the teacher and they're like they
were playing with people on the play equipment all of lunch.
And yet for a kid even a minute of not
being able to find a friend can feel like an hour.
Their sort of sense of what that felt like can
(08:58):
be pretty whacked, and for them that minute felt really tough.
So we may not need to take any action but
to stop and let our child know, Hey, I get
that that would have felt so hot. Do you know,
sometimes I feel lonely when I'm with friends too, or
I've felt left out off, felt that feeling. I know
what that's like, and we kind of do nothing else.
(09:19):
I reckon nine out of ten times, that's all kids need.
That is all they need. And then every now and then,
if it feels really hard and that they are really struggling,
then I might sort of say, I wonder what we
can do tomorrow if you felt like you couldn't find
any friends, or I wonder what we could do tomorrow
if Sarah told you that you're not allowed to play?
(09:42):
What might we do if this same thing happened again?
And that's where we can start to give a bit
of advice and do a bit of coaching.
Speaker 5 (09:48):
But with that question, I wonder I try to.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Let our kids lead, because our kids often have the
best solutions within them, and they might say, do you
know what, I'm just gonna play with someone else and
You're like, yeah, great idea.
Speaker 5 (10:02):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yes, I love the girls come home. At the moment,
it's like the best friend, oh straight out, so oh
you've got and that it changes the next week. Yeah,
it's the other I have the best friend, which is
really cute. But I had a moment pick up the
other day was one girl ran out and gave me
a big cuddle, and the other one just ran off
with the friends. And then that when they gave me
a cuddle, went out and just her head dropped playing
(10:26):
tag or something silly. Yeah, I was like, oh my god,
it's just it was so yuck. But then exactly that moment,
it was that for about thirty seconds, and then she
just kind of went up the hill, played by herself
for a bit and then ran back to the group
and was joined in, smiling and happy. And you can
see how that moment would have felt really long for them. Yeah,
(10:47):
but then they were kind of fine running back in
and working at it themselves. But it is such a
yucky feeling.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
Yeah, I think it's good not to watch. Its important.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
It's important as parents also to think about what, particularly
with friendships and kids, what's coming up for you, because
sometimes we have a memory of feeling different or left
out or excluded, and sometimes we're quick to place that
experience we had on our kid, and we may or
(11:16):
may not have that right, you know, like sometimes our
kids are like, you know, was that hard when this
happened and they're like, no, I was doing my own thing,
and then other times they are really affected by those things.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, the twin thing is probably adds another layer of
complexity to it at times because your girls, I guess
they would call themselves best friends even though they're sisters.
But then another now with kindergarten, with school, then other
friends are going to start to come into play, and
that much, it's so true, it'd be a really difficult thing.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Yeah, yeah, I can see how that's said to someone
this morning. That's when you can see why split them up,
but actually start at some point becoming a really good idea.
Speaker 5 (11:53):
Yeah they split up now.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
No they're not. And the teacher already said for next year,
she doesn't see any reason why you would split them
up because they do kind of are okay individually in
the classroom setting, which is lovely. Yeah that's great that
it might be all good. But yeah, that's and that
would happen with siblings, too close siblings.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
But yeah, I think it is hard because they are together,
and then if they form different friendships and then one
of them gets invited to something and the other one's not,
that's really tricky.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
But yes, you're hoping in kindy and you one. People
are just like including.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Ashua tends to form one solid friendship, which he has
done at kindergarten with a little friend of his, but
then he's not that interested in it in the group.
He just likes to find his person, which is a
nice thing, but I kind of I guess it concerns
me as well that he's not kind of putting himself
out there within the group more. He's just kind of
(12:47):
as his person.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
I think I remember worrying about that with my oldest.
He formed a very close friendship with one particular child
and I was a first time school mum and the
friend he'd made was the youngest of three boys, and
I said, should we be worried that they're only playing
with each other and not the wider agreement was just like,
oh girlfriend, No. But what I have come to realize
(13:08):
is that some kids are more comfortable or they're building
their strength in that more intimate one on one best
friend type friendship. They really get very interested in one person.
That person excites them. They have a common interest or
a common game that they play, and they do kind
of build those intense skills.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
Whereas other kids are better at the broader group.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
They're going with the flow or being a leader maybe,
and they're building those skills and at different stages they'll
dip into the other I think as well.
Speaker 5 (13:42):
With development.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Yeah, okay, if you notice if your child is coming
home regularly this I guess this is more a school
thing and saying that no one will play with me.
At what point, as a parent do you think, Okay,
we actually need to We've gone through the steps of listening,
we've understood. At what point as a pair, I do
think we need to actually try to facilitate something.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
I reckon if at any point that an emotion around
friendships is impacting your child's ability to eat, or sleep
or enjoy things they previously enjoyed. So if your kid
is saying I don't want to go to school, no
one will play with me, that's letting you know, okay,
we need to do more here. So there are two
(14:24):
things I would do. I would do some coaching at home,
and I'll talk about what I would do. But I
would also definitely sort of reach out, let the school know,
see what the teacher's perspective is.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
Our teachers are with our kids twenty four to seven.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
Sometimes it's a matter of them just stepping in and
facilitating a bit, but sometimes they can reassure us, actually,
this is what's happening, and there's something to worry about,
and it might be something else that's going on. One
of the best things I think we can do in
terms of coaching our kids, if they're having a repeated
struggle with joining, maintaining friendships, joining in groups, being included
(14:57):
in games, we want to sort of build on two things.
So one, I talk to my kids about being a
friend detective. And I love this idea, but I sent
my eldestin and I've done it with all of my
four boys ever since. When they're having a struggle point
and rather than saying just go play with someone nice,
I say, tomorrow, I want you to go to school
(15:17):
and pretend you are a friend detective. I want you
to just have that detective hat on and just look
around and see who can you notice that smiles at you?
Who can you notice that doesn't smile when you try
to join in? Who makes you feel good inside? Who
doesn't make you feel so good? You know? We're trying
to teach kids those cues of when people are excited
to be around us and when they're not being so nice,
(15:40):
and we might also have them look around for other
kids that are sitting on their own and not a
sort of included and anything as well, and that.
Speaker 5 (15:48):
Gives them perspective for others as well. So I did this.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
There was one stage where one of my kids, he
was coming home and he was constantly telling me how
he was trying to play with this one group of
kids and the other's sporty kids, and he wasn't that
sporty at the time.
Speaker 5 (16:03):
So I was like, okay, interesting choice.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
And he just kept trying to sort of join in,
and they'd say, look, you're allowed to stand on the
sideline and watch, but you can't join in. So he
would stand and watch every lunchtime. And as a parent,
you're going mate like, make another choice that you know,
it doesn't sound like they're very excited to see you.
And so I introduced this idea. You know, I sort
of said play with someone else. You know, all that
nothing worked. If you tell your kids that's not a
(16:26):
you know, go play with someone else, they're not going
to listen. But I introduced this idea of being a
friend detective, and it was his birthday party was coming up,
and he wanted to have them all to his birthday party.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
And I was thinking, okay, and I said, just go
and be a friend detective.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
Look at who welcomes you in, who's excited to see you,
you know, all of that stuff. Who makes you feel good?
Where do you feel calm? You know, you're just sort
of tuning into what's happening to anybody. And within about
four days he came home and goes, Mum, I've thought
about my birthday party.
Speaker 5 (16:51):
I'm not going to have those kids. I'm going to
have these five kids.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
They're all the ones that are always smiling when I approach,
who were happy to see me, who always let me
have a turn, and don't make me stand on the
sideline's let's groom. So it's that I think that idea
of kind of giving them the power to sort of
be this detective of who's kind to you is a
really good skill for kids to build up. Talking to
the teacher and seeing, well is something going on that's
(17:14):
out of your child's hand, and we need to sort
of step in and give kids a little bit of help.
When would I get help? You know, I would continue
if none of that was effective, then I would think
about some ot for my kid because it might be
that they're struggling to read social cues, you know, there
might be something we can build on with that, Or
there are awesome social skills courses you can do in
(17:34):
the school holidays as well, where your kid can just
go and learn how to speak up more in a group,
or how to take turns better. Sometimes our kids those
skills that are really helping them to go well in
social situations, like reading non verbal cues, or like being
able to take you're out in tip, you know, is
building those emotional skills, and we can give our kids
(17:55):
a bit of help with that. And the way that
I would talk to my kids about the idea of
going and doing a social skill course is just the
way we do ours swimming lessons to work on our swimming,
or we do maths tutoring to work on our mouths.
Sometimes we can do some friendship lessons to work on
how to make friends.
Speaker 5 (18:07):
Yeah, so I would just view it as a skill.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
If your child has formed a new friendship, But then
you do notice there is some behavioral changes from your child, yeah,
which you associate to that friendship. How do you negotiate
that one without trying to speak badly about another child
or a new friend, and work through.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
That the politics of parenting. Oh I'm not that good
at this. I a couple of things.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Don't do it? Stop? Don't you mean?
Speaker 5 (18:42):
Don't say that friend anymore? That that influenced?
Speaker 4 (18:45):
No kidding again, I would get my kid to think
about if something is not with it.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
Just say your child is hanging around someone and you.
Speaker 4 (18:52):
Notice that that kid is maybe not so kind to
other kids, and you think that's not us, Like, that's
not what I've taught you to do. Again, I would
use that detective lens, go and be a detective. Look
at the impact that your friend has on others, and
just have a notice. How does it make you feel
so when your friend tells so and so he can't play?
(19:13):
How does that feel inside you? Because often your kid
will go, actually, I get a big not in my stomach.
It doesn't feel good, Okay. And how does it feel
when you're with someone that lets anyone play? Yeah, that
feels a bit calmer. Once they start to identify what's
happening in their body, they can get better at it.
But the other thing we can do is practice at home.
So just say you're having a tricky situation in whatever regard.
(19:36):
One of the things that will be really hard for
kids is speaking up in the moment because it's a
lot of pressure, like they're trying to just manage themselves
not be the one being picked on, and then speaking up.
Speaker 5 (19:46):
It be really tricky.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
So just say they've got someone that's constantly saying you
can't play, or you're stupid, or they're being picked on,
which happens, you know to all of our kids. At
some stage. You might say, what are we going to
do next time your friend says, you know, whatever it is,
How can we sort of work on that in advance,
And we might have a practice where I'll be the
(20:09):
friend and my child can be them, or we can
role play and literally have a practice at standing up
for ourselves or saying that's not.
Speaker 5 (20:17):
Nice or you know, you can't tell me what to do,
or whatever it is.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
But actually teaching them how to speak up for someone
else or for themselves and practicing it in advance can
make a really big impact.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah, to look at how they're treating others and removes
it from your child, because your child is then looking
at how that other child is.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
Fostering that compassion and that noticing the impact, but also
noticing how does that make you feel?
Speaker 5 (20:43):
And often the goat not good? And what can you do?
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Practice saying hey, well the marrier, he can join in
or whatever, so they can practice speaking up. There was
a period where one of my kids was having a
really hard time where this one friend would just constantly,
you know, put him to call him names, point out
that he was slow or clumsy or whatever. We can
kind of be tempted to think, oh, that other child
(21:07):
is mean and a bad kid. That kid's not a
bad kid. It's just that something's not feeling great for
that kid. And the way kids process that sometimes is
to just put someone else down because they're worried everyone
will pick on them or whatever. But we can help
our kids with the ability to cope with that in
the moment. And so with my son, we practiced what
could we say back next time he's you know, just
picking on you relentlessly and it's feeling really annoying, And
(21:29):
we sort of worked out saying shut up might not
be good because he could get in trouble.
Speaker 5 (21:33):
And we worked out that maybe saying shut your pie hole.
Would would be.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
An okay thing to say that, you know, would it
get him in He was in about you four, would
it get him in trouble?
Speaker 5 (21:44):
Anyway? The next day they were they had to go
off to a.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
Swimming lesson and he was coming back and he was
trying to pick up his stuff and this kid.
Speaker 5 (21:51):
When look at you know, look at him.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
He can't even manage his staff, you know, he's so
unco and he said, you know, shut your piehole.
Speaker 5 (22:01):
And he got in trouble with the teacher.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
The teacher said, if you say that again, you're not
you know, you're going to be in trouble. And he
came home and he's really upset at me because he
was like, mom, like you said this would be okay
and you know, and I said, you know, I'm okay,
Like you know, it wasn't big trouble. It was just like,
don't speak like that. And he didn't like getting in trouble.
And I said, I'm okay with you getting in trouble.
I'm interested to see what happens. That kid did not
(22:24):
pick on him again, Like it was as simple as
pushing back a little and saying, shut your pie hole, dude,
and he just stopped. If that doesn't happen, and when
when picking on moves into bullying, So what is bullying
as opposed to that was not bullying, that was just
a kid being a bit of a pain. How do
we know it's bullying when it is targeted? When there
(22:47):
is a power difference, So if one kid for whatever
reason has more power over and when it is relentless,
like it's just ongoing, it's this constant power thing where
that bullying is tughting one child and it's really starting
to impact their sense of self and their self esteem.
We're always going to need to step in a the
(23:07):
school needs to be involved, and there needs to be
absolutely zero tolerance for that kind of stuff, and we
probably want to get support for our child depending on
the age. Young kids are like ot and social skills,
older kids psychologists, child psychologist and just talking through some
ways that they can process the emotions of that experience
but also build some.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Skills, particularly in the early years. I just love that
detective thing so much because I don't know if this
is right, but it is in some ways. Little friendships
at the start, it's easier to either find the cheeky,
naughty kid or just to be a bit silly yourself, Yeah,
because you feel like that's getting fast attention, and maybe
(23:47):
you say something funny and people laughing, you see, But
getting into the what it feels like for you and
then what you can see in other people just helps.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
So I think, yeah, we want our kids to be
kind and compare and considerate and all those great things.
But remembering it takes twenty seven years for the prefrontal
cortex to be fully formed, so our kids are meant
to make lots of mistakes in terms of how they
get on with siblings, in terms of how they behave,
and in terms of friendships. They're going to mate lots
(24:16):
and lots of mistakes. And I think it's how we
build those skills. And I love the detective thinks it's
a low pressure way of having them sort of realize
the impact they're having on others, realize how others are
impacting them, and then move in ways it's positive for them.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
And then it might also just stop that going down
the not so nice hopefully friendship lines where they just
fall into the group because you're just getting them away
early on looking out for that stuff. Going yep, just yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Probably in the old retirement village when the prefrontal lobe
of actus.
Speaker 5 (25:00):
These days like finally she was.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Took us off somewhere else. But if you can see
that the friendship is a bit unhealthy for your child,
but your child just keeps going back and keeps going
back for more, how do we intervene as a parent
in those circuits?
Speaker 5 (25:30):
Really tricky.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
I think we want to foster friendships that we see
as working better for our kid. And again, I know,
I know, I just narrate NonStop, and I'm going to
do some narrating. So I would set up a playdate
with a kid where I think that there is a
really healthy and great dynamic and wear a lot of
fun gets hat and I would then do a bit
of like I'm noticing when you know so and so
(25:53):
comes over, you guys have such a lot of fun,
And I'm noticing that he or she lets you have
ideas and you get to have a turn. How does
that feel when you're playing, you know, with that friend.
And again, we're just building that sense. Once kids become
aware a little bit cognitively, Yeah, it feels really good
because he lets me have a turn. And then by contrast,
(26:14):
they're going to notice and when you're playing with that
other friend and they don't let you ever have a turn,
how does that feel?
Speaker 5 (26:20):
Or you know, it's less than healthy.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
But friendships can also break up because kids just move
on and change, you know, the friendship groups that they're into.
One of my kids is a bit like yours in
that he makes very intense, you know, friendships that are
based around shared interests, and then suddenly there might be
just a new shiny friend over there. Suddenly we're interested
(26:42):
in someone else, and that's all he can talk about,
and it's just sort of Yeah.
Speaker 5 (26:46):
I think that that's a normal thing for kids to do.
They develop yeahs.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
At school the other day, Asher took one of his
little cuddly toys of him because he was he was
struggling that morning, and so you want to take in
the heaven in his bag and the little boy another
boy at his table or something sore in his bag
and called in and said, you're a baby. You were
such a baby. What would be a good response as
(27:10):
a parent. You know, that's just teasing, it's not bullying.
It's just one of those things. But he was obviously
wanted to talk to us about it because it obviously
hurt him. What would be the right kind of response
in those sort.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
Of moments, you know, I'd always start with, like, oh,
your friend called you a baby for having that toy
repeating it bag.
Speaker 5 (27:30):
I can tell that felt pretty awful.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
I can see by your face or the fact you're
crying or you're really sad about that.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
That did not feel good, did it.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
You might say that wasn't a nice thing to say
that your friend said, and I can see that it didn't.
Speaker 5 (27:45):
Feel great for you.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
I would start with that in that I might not
do anything more in that maybe that's a one off thing,
and kids are it's going to happen. My son got
a haircut this weekend and he went to school and
it was like really proud of it, and someone said,
you shouldn't have cut your haird that short.
Speaker 5 (28:04):
It doesn't look good, you know, And.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
And he's, you know, he's come home a bit deflated.
And you know, we could step in in every one
of these moments and sort of take action. But I
think the biggest thing we can let our kid know
is like, I get that that would have felt pretty awful.
These are the things that happen to our kids. Socially
that build frustration, tolerance, and resilience in these moments. But
(28:27):
if that was something that our child was just bringing
up again and again, or he suddenly was like, I
can't take my toy to school because I might get
called a baby, then we might go, Okay, well let's
talk about that, and we'll talk about what could we
do next time someone said something like that, And kids
can come up with something that they can say sometimes,
you know, one of the best things our kids can
say back if we're coaching, something they can just use
(28:49):
in the moment is just not cool. So it's pretty
It's not like, you know, you're not giving it a
lot of attention, you're not showing that you're sort of unflappable,
but you're calling out that is not nice. And so,
especially as kids get older, not cool, and that's the
way they can actually defend a friend as well. One
of the things I'm wanting for my boys is that
they kind of, you know, be men for others and
stand up for other people. And it can be really hard.
(29:12):
You know, kids don't necessarily at eleven, twelve or thirteen
want to saying.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
Hey, buddy, that is not so not you should talk
in kind ways, but if.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
One of their friends is being really unkind to someone,
they can go not cool.
Speaker 5 (29:23):
You know, it's just subtle, It's just a way of
sort of standing up.
Speaker 4 (29:26):
So again, sometimes we need to think about ways that
we can sort of script or equip our kids with
those little tools that they can use in the moment.
But also if that was ongoing, I would be letting
the teacher know and how to chat.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Yeah. Yeah. When does peer pressure start within children and friendships?
And is that something that established quite young or is
it more of it feels in my head, I feels
like a teenager. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:50):
I mean I think as kids grow into the tween
and teen years, the importance of us as the most
important thing in their world diminishous.
Speaker 5 (30:02):
And the importance of friends goes.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
That's why the earl is, you know, in your parenting
is so important because that's when they really care what
you think, and they really care about your approval and
your love.
Speaker 5 (30:14):
And your connection.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
As kids hit the tween is suddenly they're going to
care so much more what other people think and less
about what you think. So it's about that really normal
developmental stage of growing up and moving away from our
parents and out to the world. So we want kids
to do this. And one of the things kids will do.
If you look at groups of tweens and teens, you know,
(30:36):
especially actually girls and boys, they dress identically. Have you
noticed an pasts they're like like the girls like it'll
just be like, wow, did you guys get dressed together?
Speaker 5 (30:47):
Because it's true, you.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
Know, And so the biggest thing they're not going to
want to do in those years is stand out.
Speaker 5 (30:55):
And I think that's survival.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
Like you're really trying to put your head down and
just all like look.
Speaker 5 (31:00):
The same and get through.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
And that's kind of part of the process of pulling
away from parents, pulling into those teen years. And you know,
the biggest thing I think we can do as parents
to kind of how do we deal with peer pressure?
I think that we let our kids know that there
is nothing that they could ever do or say that
would make them less worthy of love or unlovable in
(31:23):
our eyes. There is nothing that they could tell us
that they've done that would make us love them less,
and that we'll always be on their team and there's
nothing we can't work out.
Speaker 5 (31:32):
And if we reinforce that.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
Message in the early years through being with them in
those moments where they're struggling with friendships and saying, let's
work on being a friend detective, and I'm in this
with you. I'm not flipping out. I'm kind of alongside you,
and I'm able to be with you in this emotion
you are modeling. I can be with you in the
tricky stuff, the uncomfortable stuff your son with, the you know,
(31:56):
the friends saying you're a baby, sitting with him and
going that mustn't have felt good is the groundwork that
sets your relationship up so that if at sixteen he's
been pressured to do something that he doesn't feel good
about but doesn't feel he's got the skills to navigate,
then he's able to come and say I'm having a struggle.
Speaker 5 (32:20):
I think that's pretty cool.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
The other way we help kids deal with peer pressure
is by setting boundaries throughout their childhood. So every time
we say I love you in the moon and back,
but it's bedtime, you're allowed to have emotions about that,
but my answer is no cookie, or you know we
are not having another playdate this weekend.
Speaker 5 (32:40):
I'm going to have some quiet time.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
Every time we set a boundary around that, staff our
kids are learning that you can have a very close
and connected relationship and love someone to the moon and
back and still not do everything they want you to do.
That is the way we model well, you can have
a friendship when you're thirteen, fourteen, fifteen and really care
about that friend, but still not want to do everything
(33:02):
they want you to do.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
So there are two ways I would do it again.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
That is so powerful. That way, that's what really you
want them to have.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, your whole life.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
Yeah, and I mean the the you know, not to
plug it again, but the high low buffalo cards.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Right.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
There is these questions that you can ask kids around friendships.
So there's twenty five questions on the lows and the
highs that all focus on those moments that happen in friendships.
And you can ask kids questions like how could you
stand up for a friend who is struggling to stand
up for themselves. It's an example of a question, and
we get kids answering like what would I do to
(33:46):
stand up for someone? In theory, that's practicing all those
skills around friendships and around peer pressure in a low
stakes way around the dinner table. That's another way that
we can practice that stuff, because all these things are
skills and we just build them a little bit.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yeah, and it's it's skills. It practice is the right word.
But it takes repetition for parents and for children to
instill into us. Totally so good, Thank you, jen La. Yeah,
(34:23):
after we speak with jen I'm always well quite reflective.
I always think about the times and moments where I'm
not actually managed to put those things in place and
in practice. And it's just such a good reminder I
think for everyone listening to or just a reminder of
how to navigate and how to work through certain situations.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
Absolutely, yeah, that the whole for a detective concept is
just so so good. I was a pick up the
other day and I just noticed one of the girls
said like something a bit cheeky to get a laugh.
And then the detective stuff is just so great. Not
only makes yourself reflect, but then what to look out
for in other people? And how does that when you're
(35:03):
watch an interaction, how does the other you know? It's
just it's so so good. Yeah, setting up early, how
did that actually make you feel?
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Then?
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Yeah, and like she spoke about if you do have
as a parent, your child has a friend you're not
too sure of remove it from your child by saying
how do you feel if that person treats someone that way?
And so you actually don't put it directly on your child,
but they start looking about outside of themselves and the
situation they've sort of found themselves.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Yeah, so good.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, put your little friend detective glasses on.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Yep, thank you Jen once again. If you loved listening today,
you can find out more about Jen and her work
at Connectedparenting dot com dot au and you can follow
her on Instagram at Connected Parenting Au.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
And she's got those wonderful high low Buffalo cards yes,
which I actually can't wait to try. I think dinner
times for your perfect time to do it after dinner
and just to get your children talking and understand things
that are going well, things that maybe aren't go sing well.
And you know, if you do have siblings, it's a
way that they can actually start probably understanding each other
(36:09):
and talking to each other. But look, if you love
the show, make sure you follow We will talk wherever
you're listening, so you know miss an episode.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Thanks for listening, see you next time. Bye bye, bye
bye
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