June 15, 2026 • 39 mins
The iPad is quiet. The YouTube video looks harmless. The game seems age-appropriate. But what is your child actually learning online?
Online safety expert and former police officer Yasmin London joins Simon and Lachy to unpack why digital safety starts long before the first phone - from Roblox and Minecraft to tech tantrums, online strangers and helping young children build digital street smarts early.
HOSTS
Simon Pryce
Lachlan Gillespie
GUEST
Yasmin London
You can find out more about Yasmin and First Movers here.
PRODUCERS
Produced by The Wiggles and Mylk Media
Madeline Joannou
Nick Webb
For more Wiggly fun, visit:
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About The Wiggles' Podcast - Wiggle Talk
Welcome to Wiggle Talk, the ultimate parenting podcast brought to you by The Wiggles! With over 30 years of experience in early childhood education and a global legacy of entertaining and educating millions of children, The Wiggles are now stepping into the world of parenting to share their journey as parents themselves. This podcast is designed for parents seeking expert advice, relatable stories, and practical tips on raising toddlers.
In Wiggle Talk, you'll join Simon and Lachy, beloved members of The Wiggles, as they explore the real-life challenges and joys of parenting. From handling toddler tantrums to nurturing your child’s early development, Simon and Lachy invite guests to share compelling conversations that will provide valuable insights that every parent can relate to. Whether you're struggling with sleep routines, picky eating, or simply looking for fun and educational activities to do with your little ones, this podcast has got you covered.
Every episode also features founding Wiggle and early childhood expert Anthony Field, who will answer listener questions on topics ranging from child behaviour to effective parenting strategies. With decades of experience and a passion for helping children thrive – as well as being a father of three - Anthony offers trustworthy advice to help you navigate the complexities of raising a toddler.
As parents, we know that the journey can be both rewarding and challenging. That's why Wiggle Talk is here to support you every step of the way. Whether you're a new parent or have been on this journey for a while, you'll find a wealth of information and inspiration in each episode. Plus, you’ll hear from famous friends of The Wiggles who share their own parenting experiences and tips.
So, tune in to Wiggle Talk and join The Wiggles as they swap their skivvies for candid conversations about parenthood. Let's work out this parenting thing together, with a little help from the experts in early childhood education!
About The Wiggles
For over three decades, The Wiggles have been a beloved cornerstone of children's entertainment, captivating and educating millions of preschoolers—and their parents—around the world. Known for their high-energy performances, catchy songs, and colourful characters, The Wiggles have built a global legacy rooted in the power of music and movement to inspire early childhood learning.
With a mission to make education fun, The Wiggles create content specifically designed for pre-K, preschool, kindergarten, and nursery school age groups. Their unique blend of music, dance, and educational content not only entertains but also helps children understand the world around them. Generations of fans who grew up watching The Wiggles are now sharing that same joy with their own children.
The Wiggles’ impact is truly global: they’ve achieved billions of music streams and YouTube views, and have sold more than 30 million albums and DVDs, along with eight million books worldwide. The Wiggles con
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Wiggles acknowledge the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia
and their connections to land, see and community. We pay
our respects to elders, past, present and emerging.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome to Wiggle Talk, a podcast for parents. My name
is Lucky and I am the Purple Wiggle.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Hello Simon, Oh hello, yes, my name is Simon. Thank
you for you introducing me.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Locky Well, I felt weird to say hello.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't sound personally, but I'm Simon. I'm
the Red Wiggle. And today we're talking with Yasmine London
about online safety for young children, not teenagers, not about
first phones or social media, but the much earlier stage
when iPad's, YouTube and family phones are already a part
of our everyday life. But before we speak to Yasmine,
(00:53):
we've gone to the football two weeks in a row,
the Sydney Swans right AFL and every season we try
to get to a couple of games, but this is
now the first time where actually pretty much sits through
a whole game. Oh wow and how great? Yeah, which
is really exciting and he's really getting into it. I
signed him up now for ozgick on which is going
(01:14):
to be on a Sunday morning. Oh great, and I
love it. It's actually a really really great thing. And
now I've tried not to impose my love of the
Sydney Swans onto Asher, but clearly I haven't done a
good job. And I might say that I haven't tried it,
but secretly, of course you wanted. But he still a
bit confused about the different codes. Yes, so Sydney Swan's
(01:36):
being afl Yes, and the Sydney Swans sometimes played the
Bristo Broncos okay, which is nurl and the Matilda's okay,
so we're kind of moving around Matilda's as well. It's
been really good going to the footy.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Were they both wins?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
They were, Yeah, the last game against and Kilda only
just oh that's all right. We actually didn't So the
first you always try to find an afternoon game because
some of them are quite late, and we were sitting
on against Richmond the game started a bit after one
and the sun didn't get us in the stand. Yes.
(02:13):
Last weekend the game started a quarter past three and
we're in full sun, like from the outset, and so
that kind of changed the enjoyment fact a little bit luckily,
but there's a little room we could go into. But
that men, you're a bit more removed from the game,
(02:34):
you know, so it wasn't as successful. But he has
been loving watching his footage. But then we did leave
earlier and got home and did see the last part
of the final quarter where the.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
One he's got up in one. But you're they're very
good this year.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
They are very good. It's up to ash you that
he can make his own choices.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
They can, you know, but he'll love us kick. They
do that really well. It was kicks. That'll be fun.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yeah. Yeah, he's really looking forward to it and a
lot of a lot of his mates are doing it too.
So he's had his little soccer squad for the preschool
which is still going. Yeah okay, but a lot of them,
so soccer will be on the Saturday, and then a
lot of them also doing the os kick for I
think it's maybe eight ten weeks or something, okay on
the Sunday.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, wow, that's great. Should we get into it.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Go to the lines all right. Today we are talking
to Yasmin London. Yasmin is a speaker host and the
founder of First movers Co, where she works with people
and organizations on leadership, technology, online safety, and what it
means to stay human in a very digital world.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Yeah. Now, Yasmin, she's had a really interesting career. She's
a former World champion athlete, a former New South Wales
police officer, and she's worked in the tech space, so
she brings a lot of real world experience to this conversation.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
A big part of Yasmin's work is helping people understand
the online world in a way that feels practical, not overwhelming,
especially when it comes to young people safety and digital wellbeing.
She's also a mom of two, so she brings both
the expert lens and the parent lens to this conversation.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
And for a lot of this all starts really simply.
You hand over the iPad while you're making dinner, You
put YouTube on during a long car trip, you give
them your phone because you just need five minutes. And
because they're still little, it doesn't always feel like online
safety yet, but those early screen habits are teaching children
something about boredom, patience, instant entertainment, asking for help, and
(04:23):
what to do when something online feels strange or confusing.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Oh, it's just about to see. You know how hard
it is to find DVDs now for kids.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Hard, really hard. But I have some friends who bought
little DVD players, the portable ones, yeah, and have found
DVDs andre actually watching old school movies and things with
their kids instead of streaming and the instant gratification and
sort of.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
You know, it's what we've been trying, but they're very
hard to find anyway. Today's conversation is about how we
help young children build digital street smarts before phones and
social media even part of the picture. So simo, let's
get into it.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yasmen, welcome to wiggle Talk. Oh hi, Yasman, Welcome to
wiggled Talk.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Thank you so much for having me. What a pleasure
and a surprise to be here. Who knew I'd be
talking to the Wiggles today.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Speaks Simon, is that I saw yes and Speak at
Ash's school, which is as soon as Yasmin finished, I
said to Lauren, we've got a Yasmin on the podcast
because so many incredible things to talk about.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Yes, thank you for coming and speaking to us today.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Oh my pleasure. It's so great to be here to
chat to you such an important topic too for younger kids,
so really really interested to have a chat.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Can we start with where online safety starts? I think,
you know or most most parents would put an iPad
or a laptop or YouTube on or you know, just
give them their phones. So is that the start of
online safety?
Speaker 4 (05:52):
Yeah, it sure is. I think you know, there's a
bit of a misconception that it's when someone hands over
a kid's sort of own phone, for example, but it
really does start, you know, the moment that they start
interacting with technology. You know, in Australia there's kids that
are just as old as three and four that are
spending upwards of three hours a day on iPads or
(06:13):
on mobile phones. And it's really really important, even at
that young age that we start to tell them and
teach them a bit about online safety, what is safe,
what technology use can feel like, and how what it
does to their body. You know, lots of parents, me included,
have dealt with you the tech tantrums and the meltdowns
that happen when we start using technology. So all of
(06:35):
those lessons are really important to start really early with
and to talk about often.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
And what are some of those lessons? What are some
of the things we can talk to our children about
regards to there's two separate things in their screen time,
and then there's online safety. And what are some of
the things what's some of the messaging we can talk
to our children about.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Yeah, well, I mean, let's start with online safety. That's
a really big one. And I think one issue that
a lot of parents are really worried about is strangers
contacting their kids. And that's a very genuine concern. And
so just like we might teach them about stranger danger
in the physical world, we've got to teach them a
bit about that from a young age, at an age
appropriate level, about what unsafe strangers might look like or
(07:18):
how they might act in an online environment. So, you know,
teaching them some really simple strategies like not speaking to
people that they don't know in real life or who
their parents don't know, for example, if you don't know
their first and last name, so that personal information about
that person, and making sure that they are who they
say they are. And then when we come to screen time,
(07:40):
I mean, that's a really really big one. There's lots
of kids watching a range of platforms. One that's really
really popular that a lot of parents don't seem to
think is a huge issue with something like YouTube and YouTube.
While it can be absolutely amazing in terms of quality
screen time with tools that are all videos that kids
can learn from, it can equally be a massive time waster.
(08:03):
We can have the issues around things like the AutoPlay
features that just continually keep kids in a loop watching
video after video, and of course there's those risks around
advertisements and you know what they're learning and what they're
being influenced by as well. So you know, what I
always speak about when I speak to parents about this
space is thinking more about the quality of the screen
(08:27):
time that kids are getting, So not just the hours
in front of a screen or the time that they're spending,
but what's the experience that they're having and who's influencing
their sense of self and their learning with it as well.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
This might be a silly question, but is it We've
got five year old kids. Is it even explaining what
the internet is?
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yeah? Absolutely, it's about showing how the Internet connects with
us as well. That when we're opening up an iPad
and perhaps we're putting information in, where is that information going?
So really on base level that that information can connect
to lots of different devices, and that there's lots of
different people on the other end of those devices. You know,
(09:09):
games like Minecraft or Roadblocks for example. You know, we've
seen in the media how risky a platform like Roadblocks
can be for young kids, and it's important for them
to understand that they're not just little lego characters running around,
you know, in these fictitious worlds, that there's real people
behind those lego characters. And it's just as important for
(09:29):
parents to realize that as well, because I think we
can fall into this trap of it looking a little
bit baby ish, or we might be naive to think
that it's just a game for kids, but it is
an ecosystem of games that are created by adults, and
of course there are adults behind all of those characters,
some with nefarious intentions for our kids, so we do
(09:51):
need to take it seriously.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Yeah, it was. I was reminded when you were talking
about with you today, when I heard you speak at
ash your school that as a parent, the online and
the online I keep wanting to say online gambling, well,
and it's happening there. You're not wrong, Simon, but online
gaming is it's important as parents, for us to actually
(10:12):
do our research, I think we can put our heads
in the end a little bit and go I don't
understand it, I don't know what it is, but to
actually go in there and find out what I'm now
starting to learn that there's a difference between there's an
educational component to Minecraft, there's also the gaming component to Mind,
which are two very different things, and actually, as a parent,
starting to understanding what that means for your child. Yeah,
(10:32):
and I guess that's a great place for parents to start,
is to actually do some research.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Yeah, And I think one of the biggest blockers Simon
is the time. Right We're all so busy. We don't
necessarily want to sit there and do reviews of every
game that our kids are wanting to use. Because I
don't know if your kids are like mine, but every
week there's a new cool app or a new game
that they're really interested in being part of. But we
do need to take the time, and we do need
to understand that the online world, it's not just a
(11:00):
series of platforms, it's a place, and just like physical
world environments, there are great aspects to that, but there
are dangerous aspects to that, as well, and so we
need to take the time to research what these games
are all about, what they perhaps look like on the
surface versus what actually goes on underneath the surface, and
why of course kids want to play these games as well.
(11:24):
You know, games like Roadblocks, of course can be really
fun and entertaining, but a lot of the time kids
are really driven to them because they want to connect
with their friends, they want to chat with other people,
they want to have fun, They want to create that
sense of autonomy and agency that a lot of the
time they don't necessarily get in their physical worlds, you know,
at school or at home. They're often told this is
(11:47):
what you've got to do. You've got to follow my rules.
And so there's a lot of human behavioral drivers that
underpin why they want to participate in these sorts of
worlds as well. And that's really handy for parents to
sort of do a bit of research on as well.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
That we can jump on and play the games and learn.
I think I've heard a few parents say that they
actually jump on and oh.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
You love that, Lucky you love it. I grew up
with the Space Invader's machine at the milk.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Bar, tiny skiol trying to get the knobs to work. Yeah,
I mean, Luckie, that's exactly right. I mean that's step
number one for so many parents is get in there
and find out what the game is all about. Play
with them. Aside from the fact that you know that
is quite good quality time with your kids. When you're
(12:37):
engaging in something that they're interested in, you know, they're
automatically going to share with you what happens. They get
to sort of stand in the role of the teacher,
which is a really empowered spot for them to be in.
And it's also a really good temperature test for you
as a parent to ask those kind of casual yet
curious questions, like you know, if somebody on roadblock started
(12:58):
talking to you and ask questions that made you feel
a bit uncomfortable or you're a bit uncertain about, what
would you do and how would you know? You know,
when was the right time to come and talk to
me about these sorts of things, or who would you
go to what would you do in the game to
remove that person? And it's a really really good way
of understanding their level of digital literacy, their understanding of risk,
(13:22):
and of course, when it comes to the features and
functions of every game, and most of them have at
least some tools to protect kids. What would they do
and how would they engage with those features and functions
to try and create a safer and more empowered experience.
So yeah, it really does start with sitting down, having
some fun again, taking the time so that you can
(13:42):
be present as well. You're not sort of checking your
phone or trying to know addswer emails at five pm
in the afternoon. You're really kind of there and present,
and that's a great start.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
And the younger you start these conversations your children, the better,
I guess.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
Yeah, absolutely, I think you know, it's always got to
be age of appropriate, but we've got to make sure
that we're not dropping the ball in terms of risk,
particularly around strangers. And you know, a really easy way
for young kids and parents to start having these conversations
is to talk about that sort of body safety curriculum
that they'll be learning about at school and applying that
(14:18):
to the online world. So if somebody asks you a
question like what's your full name or where do you live,
you know, how does that make your body feel? Does
that make you feel a little bit nervous? Are you
a bit unsure? Are you a bit you know, are
you questioning why they're asking that, and helping them really
understand that those are signals that perhaps this person might
(14:38):
be a little bit risky, not necessarily that they're bad,
but that we've got to be on alert. And one
of the things that I often share with parents, it's
a really good way of sort of talking to kids
about this too, is using a traffic light system, so
you know green, a person's not asking you any questions
that are making you feel uncomfortable, nothing's too personal. You know,
(14:59):
we might get to add amber or yellow, there might
ask one question. They might ask how old you are
or where you live, and then read they're asking, you know,
really personal questions or things like, you know, why don't
we get off roadblocks and download snapchats so we can
have a private conversation together and helping them understand, you know,
what's at each of those levels, and that no matter
(15:20):
what happens, no matter what, you can come to me
and I'll be able to help you in that situation.
You know, you're never going to be in trouble, You're
always going to be safe with me when you come
and talk to me about the issues that you're experiencing online.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I love that traffic light system that's This chat just
makes me think of like Denzil Washington or I just
I get really fired up having kids, wanting to protect
them and.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Balance, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
It's such a fine balance, but it's hard. One of
the skills is teaching them to stop, because you know,
we probably played like video games there was always an end.
Everything had an end. You've got to find a boss
level and then you had to go back and have
fun paying the game again. But now all these games
there's no end. Yeah, and I suppose YouTube in a
way just keep scrolling too. So I find we've got
(16:09):
an older boy too, and stopping is a real is
a real skill.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
Well, because we've got to understand as well with kids,
you know, primary school aged and below, their brains are
not at that point like adults where they can actually
go all right, I've had enough. I'm going to stop
now and I'm going to step away. So we've got
to help them in those situations. If we're on a game,
making sure that the auto play feature is turned off,
if we say, oh, you can have an hour watching
(16:35):
a video or a TV show that we have like
even a visual timer in front of them, and that
we give them those countdowns. You know, we come in,
we say ten minutes to go, five minutes to go.
We've got capturing their eye contact just so that they
start to understand, you know, that the time is starting
to run out, and those small steps, you know, they
(16:55):
can make a big difference to you know, the tech
tantrum or the meltdown that happens afterwards. And we've got
to understand as well that that behavior it's not always
because they're upset or angry. It's because they're trying to
regulate and they're trying to, you know, bring their brain
down to a state of homeostasis after being really stimulated
by bright colors and flashing lights and high activity and
(17:19):
really high intensity stimuli. So it's also understanding that brain
development and I guess the neuroscience behind it in many ways.
One of the interesting things as well that I thought
i'd share. I was doing some research on Sesame Street
recently and the videos that are now on YouTube versus
what you know, ten or fifteen years ago the original
(17:41):
Sesame Street I should say not ten or probably more
like twenty or three years. This is a sage. But
even the scene changes that they now have on current
Sesame Street, the scene changes happen every sort of three
to four seconds, whereas original Sesame Street was every thirty
to forty five seconds. And so if you think about
(18:02):
the difference in terms of attention spans and the ability
to regulate for kids and their patients, that has massive
impacts in terms of their capacity to do that. And
so these are some of the persuasive technology tactics that
games are using, that social media uses, that platforms streaming
services like YouTube are using to try and capture kids
(18:25):
attention and keep them online as much as possible.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
It is I know for us here at the Wiggles,
we tend to still have long edits before we cut
for that very reason because we understand how a child's
brain develops, and the faster the edits and the cuts
they're basically my understanding is their brain really can't keep up,
and so they kind of sit there in this mesmerized
state just trying to get their brain to actually kind
of catch up to what's going on, and then then
(18:52):
this sort of deep dive of this constant so to
sit there kind of just sort of almost a bit
numb as they watching these programs.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
They're kind of in that zombie like state, aren't they.
You know, they're just sort of absorbing. And I guess
that's the point, right if we're thinking about screen time,
not all screen time is created equal. It is about
focusing on the quality of that screen time, the skills
that kids are developing. Are they just sitting there like
a zombie, absorbing, or are they participating in a way
that's developing you know, their critical thinking. Are they playing
(19:23):
a game that's helping them work as a team, or
you know, think deeply about a particular subject. You know,
when it comes to the World Health Organization and the
American Academy of Pediatrics, they're kind of the gold standard
when we look at screen time. They say that, you know,
there should be zero sedentary time for kids under two.
But as we sort of get a little bit older
than that, we start to think more about that quality
(19:45):
screen time versus just the quantity and what that experience
looks like, you know, and how they're being captured. I guess,
you know, another way that kids will be sort of
captured is through things like color bias. You know, they're
bright reds and the orange and the yellows. Our brain
interprets red like an emergency. It's why a traffic light
(20:06):
is red or a stop sign is red. And so
of course that is integrated into games, it's integrated even
into thumbnails on YouTube to try and make sure that
people are attracted to that and clicking on it. So,
you know, it's helpful to have an understanding about how
all of that works and how that might be influencing
our kids and what they're watching.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
You're the red wiggle.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
I'm just one emergency, but you're doing a pretty good job.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
One big emergency.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
A big red car, my friends, a big red car.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Yeah, yeah, I don't think that never that thought out.
If you see your child is sort of responding, getting
agitated watching something, do we then try to ask the
(21:00):
questions to our child about them understanding how they're feeling
or knowing that this show or whatever they've been watching
has actually had a negative effect on them. Is there
a way of communicating that to our children?
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Yeah? Well, I think in the end it's pointing it
out to them, because often they're not going to self
reflect and identify that themselves. So it might be that
you know, they've watched something and they've had that tech
tantrum or they've had that meltdown, and they just they
kind of can't regulate themselves. And you know, with kids,
the behavior is the signal for us as parents to
know when too much screen time, for example, has been occurring.
(21:33):
They're not going to say, you know, I've had enough,
It's just that their behavior will tell us that they're
not okay. So yeah, it might be saying, look, you've
been watching for probably a little bit longer than I
thought we would. If you're feeling a little bit agitated.
That sometimes what happens because our brains start to feel
a little bit anxious or we start to feel a
bit uncomfortable after watching screens for a long period of time.
(21:55):
Another great thing that we can do is just get
them outside into you know nature. You know they say
green time and screen time. Making sure that we've got
that balance to help them regulate their emotions. But yeah,
it's helpful to sort of say, look, if you're feeling
like this, I can see that you're upset, or I
can see that you wanted to watch more. One of
the reasons is that you know, I can see you're
(22:17):
agitated now. And part of the reason of that might
be because you've watched too much of you know, your
particular show, or you've watched it or played a game
that's made you feel really hyped up. And sometimes as
well being vulnerable and authentic and sharing that you experience
that too, you could sort of say, look, when mommy
or daddy we spend a lot of time online, I
(22:38):
often feel this way too. You know what happens to
all of us, and so really normalizing that experience can
be helpful too for.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Kids, do you want to try and set up I mean,
I don't know who has proper computers now, but always
in a in the common room, yeah, absolutely, in the
lounde room or in the family room where you can
just always have an eye over.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
And yeah absolutely you want it to always be in
a central place in the house so a you can
keep an eye on what they're doing and you can
ask those questions. You know, you might walk past and say,
you know, who's Johnny? Where did you meet Johnny from?
While somebody's chatting to that person online? Or you know,
kids will use things like discord now and certainly not
really appropriate for primary age kids, but we know that
(23:20):
they're using it, which is you know, a server where
they can sort of text, where they can use voice chat,
and they use it as a gaming supplement to talk
to their friends, and so it might be annoying for
you while you're cooking dinner in the kitchen, but you
can overhear the way that they're speaking, who they're speaking about,
what they're saying, and you can ask those questions. It's
all information that you know, you can utilize to make
(23:43):
an assessment on whether something is good or not so
good for them. The other thing that I'd really recommend,
certainly for parents of primary age or younger kids, is
implementing parental controls on their devices, the family devices, of course,
and it's not to say that they're perfect, they're not,
but it's another barrier of protection. So you know, you
(24:06):
can limit their screen time with that, you can choose
what apps and games they're allowed to play, and you're
able to manage that. You're able to block them from
certain websites, or you can get an alert if they
try to search for something that you know you don't
want them to see, especially as they start to get older,
and it just creates that habit as well of safety.
It's a good talking point in the household. You know,
(24:30):
the one that I use with my girls, which I
mentioned in the presentation Simon, is custodio. And you know,
I've implemented that from the time that my kids were
you know, four and five years old, and they know
what it looks like when custodio pops up and blocks
them from a website that that's not a safe website
for them to go to. So it starts a conversation.
(24:51):
It gives you that opportunity to have that consistent moment,
you know, every day or every week with your child.
So you know, it's really handy to make sure that
we're im played menting and controlling their access to things
that we can't always see or know about as well.
So that's a good good strategy for parents.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
Yeah, that's a great point. And with I think I'm
in denial that the online gaming will happen for Asher,
who's only five. But what age do children actually start
to get involved in online gaming?
Speaker 4 (25:21):
Yeah, well, how long is a piece of string? I
guess it's really dependent on whether their parents allow them
access or even have any knowledge about what they're doing
in the first place. But I would say, you know,
as soon as they're at school, definitely, you know there'll
be kids in kindergarten that are playing on Roadblocks or
on Minecraft, and as we get a little bit older,
those games become more sophisticated, or they might play Fortnite
(25:44):
or Call of Duty, which is not appropriate for kids
of this age, but there's always going to be those
kids around, and vicariously they hear about it. And because
kids are curious and they want to know what this
is all about, and they don't want to be the
only person school that's either not on it or doesn't
have a clue what people are talking about, they will
(26:05):
just go and download it to see what it's all about.
They will try to sneak playing this game when you're
not watching, and in the end, that of course is
a behavioral issue in some ways, but as parents, we've
got to understand that this is also natural and the
nature of most kids. It's curiosity and wanting to be
part of something that belonging piece that I spoke about earlier,
(26:28):
And so when we come at it from that perspective
and we have that baseline understanding of the drive to
play these games, we're much better equipped to try and
deal with it, but of course it comes down to
knowing what the game is, what the risks are, and
making a balanced judgment for your family on what you know.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
It's been interesting lately with birthday parties. Actually has been
invited to a few and now it's done those gaming
arcades actually go and have a party there, which is
a whole new We went ten bin bowling the other
night and there was a game section there and went
in there and they're pretty full on.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Do you mean the retro ones or do you mean
like the virtual reality games.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
That they're going, like your time Zones and all those
kind of Yeah, and it's like there's only a few
games there which you are age appropriate, and it's probably
really the one with the claw trying to get a
fluffy dome.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
Where you're getting trapped into spending forty five dollars.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Yeah, that's right, Teddy, you're never going to get It's
fascinating that's starting to become a thing. And I think
a lot of it's because there's older siblings. There's a
whole range of reasons for it. But I was a
bit taken aback that that was now a party destination.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Yeah, and that you're so right with that. So I'm
in the challenge with older siblings, like I've seen that
with my own kids. You know, I've got a nine
year old and a twelve year old, and you know,
it's almost mission impossible in some ways to keep the
nine year old in her age appropriate level when the
twelve year old is not doing a lot. But you know,
there is a difference there in terms of maturity, and
(27:59):
that's a real challenge for parents. I wish I had
the silver bullet solution to that, but it is about
just trying to be consistent, and I guess putting in
those boundaries of age being the reason. But it's really
hard when they're into two different things and for one
it might be okay and the other not so much.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Yeah, it must be really hard. I was wondered, did
your perspective of online safety, the work you did that
change once you had children yourself?
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Did it change? I mean, it became more real for me.
There was a couple of incidents. I was a police
officer for thirteen years, so I had a couple of
incidents before I had children that really taught me about
the impact of the online world. One was a suicide
negotiation with a teenage girl. I had other situations where
(28:47):
because I was a youth Liaison officer, I worked a
lot with young people, and funnily enough dealt with some
kids that had quite significant gaming addictions and their response
was quite violent, and so we were in situation where
I was dealing with a DV situation because this young
person was lashing out in quite a serious way against
their families. Now that's an extreme, of course, you know,
(29:10):
there's extreme ends of the spectrum. But I guess it
taught me about the importance of balance and early intervention
and having a good baseline understanding of the risks and
the benefits early on, and I say, you know the benefits.
It's really important to not be too anti tech as
a parent because, as we've mentioned, technology can be amazing
(29:33):
and of course we're entering this AI era where that
is fundamentally changing our workforces, our lives in many ways,
and so we do need kids to be literate in
terms of AI and digital technologies, and really importantly, we
need to make sure that they know that we're not
anti tech, so that they come to us if there's
(29:54):
a problem. As I mentioned before, help seeking when it
comes to the online world, is probably the single biggest
protective factor for kids. And so if we're constantly that
parent that says, oh, I hate social media and games
are just there to make you addicted and YouTube's all
mindless crap, they're going to hear that and go all right, Well,
the day that I have a problem, I'm not quite
(30:15):
that confident coming to mum or dad. But maybe I'll
just try to deal with this myself, because I don't
want to deal with that catastrophizing and the blame game
and the drama I guess that surrounds that conversation, And
so we really want to make sure that they feel
that they can come to us and that we're going
to be able to help them and make sure that
(30:35):
decision was a good one for them in their eyes.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
It's such a good point.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
I'm definitely on the side of I don't understand Washington.
I mean, it's not hard for you, not at all. Yeah,
we've kind of had that view at the moment of
just not for the younger kids, for the older ones
is just too important, and we just kind of we
don't shut it off at all, And there's definitely lots
(31:01):
of conversations happening but it's just like you can wait
until you're older. It's not worth it. And you know,
we sit on our Instagram and just sc we know
what it does. We're trying to hold back, but that's
actually really lovely to hear that you want them to
come to you. We're absolutely not shutting it off, but
everyone knows it's there's so many yucky parts about it.
Speaker 4 (31:24):
You know. I know families that have no screen time
and not even a television in the household and that
works for them. And then I know families that kids
have American accents because they spend so much YouTube, Like
I think we've all been exposed to that, and you know,
for me, I don't judge anyone. There's a lot of
reasons that perhaps people will have kids spending more time
(31:47):
online than others, so we will have to make the
right decisions for our family unit. And there is a
lot of guilt as well around what we should be
doing and what other people are doing. But I think
in the end, it goes back to understanding your family
dynamic your kids. If your children are giving the signal
that perhaps they're spending too much time online, if there's
(32:07):
behavioral issues, if they can't regulate their emotions if they're
not sleeping at night, or they're not able to eat,
or if we're eating every meal in front of the iPad.
Those sorts of things are indicators that perhaps we need
to have some tweaks and changes. There's professional help that
can help you with that, but often it's just about
a matter of changing, you know what that dynamic looks
(32:28):
like for your family, being consistent with the rules. It's hard.
It is hard to be consistent. It's hard to have
that argument every night. It's hard to toe the line
and stick to your guns and say no to that
last episode before they go to bed, or wanting to
use your phone when you're busy, like it is a
challenge that no other generation of parents really have had
(32:52):
to deal with, and so I think we've got to
give ourselves a little bit of leeway with that. But
consistency is ultimately what creates those changes. And I think
one suggestion that I could give to parents that's really
helpful is if we can try and bring back, you know,
sitting around the dinner table as a family at dinner
time and talking to each other without devices. Sometimes little
(33:15):
moments of connection like that over a consistent period of
time five six nights a week. Let's say we don't
do it every night, but you know that's really valuable.
That's where you start to get to know your kids.
That's where you can learn about what's going on online.
You know, you might have that conversation how are school today,
and then at the same time you're saying, hey, so
(33:36):
what's happening on Roadblocks or who you're playing with on Minecraft?
Or what are you building right now that you're excited about,
and that starts that natural flow of a conversation where
you learn quite a lot and they see that you're
interested as well.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
That's a really good idea. And also I guess being
aware ourselves as parents of our screen time in front
of our children, they're modeling behavior. So it's actually if
we're saying one thing to them, we don't need to
be willing to do it ourselves.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
Yeah, well, my kids crucify me if I try to
say you want to get off tech and then I'm
still there emailing. But you know it is, You're so right, Simon,
Like parents for kids are the first and most crucial
and influential role model. And you know, the hard thing
is is we're required to be connected for the most part,
(34:23):
and you know, to try and battle that if you
are getting those criticisms from your kids. Sometimes, for me,
I'll tell them what I'm doing. So, yes, it might
be emailing, but I'm sort of putting together the golden
thread of that email means that I get that speaking work,
which means that I can pay for us to go
on a great holiday. You know, this is the connection.
(34:44):
You know. It might be I'm doing the wool Worst
Shop and gosh, I don't want to be doing the
wool Worst Shop at nine pm at night, Like who
wants to deal with all of that? But I'm doing
that so we have food.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
So it's the.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
Functionality there, not just I'm hanging and doom scrolling on Instagram.
So that can be handy to over communicate and explain
why you're connected. It's not that you're just gaming with
your friends.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Yeah, and that's verally interesting and what other guests we've
had on as well talk about that that narration, So
you actually narrate to your children exactly step by step
what you're doing and what's going on, which then keeps
informed and then can you know as a better consequences
and understanding what's actually happening.
Speaker 4 (35:22):
It's those teachable moments. And again like that takes time
and it takes energy, and you're not always going to
be able to do that. But as a parent, if
you can get into that habit of trying to lean
into those teachable moments, you know, I've done this, and
this has been the outcome. I have to do the
will workshop. And this is because we get food. I'm
connecting with my friend on Instagram because she lives in
(35:43):
another country and it's the right time zone. That's why
I'm doing that now. Helping them understand the context is
actually really important. The nuance matters in these situations.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Otherwise they look up and just see you staring at it. Yeah,
staring at the phone. That's what they see.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
Absolutely. And for parents, you know, maybe it is a
matter of us reflecting on our own habits and pulling
back a little bit. You know, everybody gets sucked into
the doom scroll here and there. And I think sometimes
when our kids challenge us, it might be a moment
for us to not be so defensive and perhaps go, yeah,
you know what, You're actually right. I've been spending a
(36:21):
bit too much time at night. I'm going to make
an effort to try and not to do that. And
when we explain that to our kids, it actually shows
that we're not perfect either, and that you know, this
isn't a fixed experience, and that we're making the effort
to try and improve our habits too, and that that's
an ongoing, you know, evolving process for us as adults
as well.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
It's so good, yes, and ultimately, what will Denzil do?
You know? Well, I'm taking away, I'm taking a lot
away from this chap. But really lucky you Washington.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
He does not love I was watching The Bone Collected
the other that was an old one. Is amazing.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
That's a good film.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
Not safe for kids, parents.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
I don't know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
He's the ultimate protector.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
He's I've got to buy an old school flip phone.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Thank you guys.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
Yeah, my pleasure.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
It's such a great Yeah, so good. It was really
really great information for our listeners and for ourselves as well.
So thank you for coming on.
Speaker 4 (37:27):
Wigill talk, very very happy, happy to be the Wiggles
cyber safety experts.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
Yeah, extraordinary, thank you, And I'll think differently next time
I put my red skivy on.
Speaker 4 (37:40):
Did you notice that I did try to wear my
skivy today?
Speaker 3 (37:43):
Yeah, very good, it's very good. Black wiggle cybersecurity black.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
That's going to say that's a bit dark and dangerous,
I promise I'm not.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Thank you so much, thank you, Thanks guys. That was
excellent with y Asmon.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
She's great.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Having heard her at Asher School, I'm so glad we
managed to get her on because she's got so many
great things to talk about. A lot of it feels
scary as a parent, I think, But just the point
you said a few times, and a few of our
wonderful guests have said the same thing, is that you
want to make sure you have an open line of
communication with your children so that if something is going on,
(38:25):
that they feel comfortable to come and talk to you,
no matter what it is, that they're not going to
get in trouble, then come to you and you can
work through it whatever the issue might be.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, and like street smart conversations, and you know, as
your kids grow up, that's now you're doing that for
online stuff. Yeah, that's right, your phones and anything. Now
it's just a whole other area of communication that you
want to keep open. I just flashes of adolescents TV shots.
Oh yeah, that just kept popping up throughout that chat.
Speaker 3 (38:56):
That was an extraordinary show. If anyone hasn't watched out unbelieve, Yeah,
make yourself a cup of tea because stronger.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
There was a computer in the room. That's what we
made me think in the boys room. But just but yeah,
you just want to be have those conversations. It's only
a good thing. That was awesome. Thank you Yasmin, and
thank you for listening today to wiggle Talk. If you
would like to find out more about yasmine and her work,
you can look at Yasminlondon dot com and we'll pop
(39:26):
the link in our show notes.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
And as always, thank you for listening to wiggled Talk.
If you enjoyed this episode, follow the show, share it
with another parent, and we look forward to seeing you
next time. And that's it for wiggled Talk this week.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Goodbye, right
The Wiggles acknowledge the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia
and their connections to land, see and community. We pay
our respects to elders, past, present and emerging.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome to Wiggle Talk, a podcast for parents. My name
is Lucky and I am the Purple Wiggle.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Hello Simon, Oh hello, yes, my name is Simon. Thank
you for you introducing me.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Locky Well, I felt weird to say hello.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't sound personally, but I'm Simon. I'm
the Red Wiggle. And today we're talking with Yasmine London
about online safety for young children, not teenagers, not about
first phones or social media, but the much earlier stage
when iPad's, YouTube and family phones are already a part
of our everyday life. But before we speak to Yasmine,
(00:53):
we've gone to the football two weeks in a row,
the Sydney Swans right AFL and every season we try
to get to a couple of games, but this is
now the first time where actually pretty much sits through
a whole game. Oh wow and how great? Yeah, which
is really exciting and he's really getting into it. I
signed him up now for ozgick on which is going
(01:14):
to be on a Sunday morning. Oh great, and I
love it. It's actually a really really great thing. And
now I've tried not to impose my love of the
Sydney Swans onto Asher, but clearly I haven't done a
good job. And I might say that I haven't tried it,
but secretly, of course you wanted. But he still a
bit confused about the different codes. Yes, so Sydney Swan's
(01:36):
being afl Yes, and the Sydney Swans sometimes played the
Bristo Broncos okay, which is nurl and the Matilda's okay,
so we're kind of moving around Matilda's as well. It's
been really good going to the footy.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Were they both wins?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
They were, Yeah, the last game against and Kilda only
just oh that's all right. We actually didn't So the
first you always try to find an afternoon game because
some of them are quite late, and we were sitting
on against Richmond the game started a bit after one
and the sun didn't get us in the stand. Yes.
(02:13):
Last weekend the game started a quarter past three and
we're in full sun, like from the outset, and so
that kind of changed the enjoyment fact a little bit luckily,
but there's a little room we could go into. But
that men, you're a bit more removed from the game,
(02:34):
you know, so it wasn't as successful. But he has
been loving watching his footage. But then we did leave
earlier and got home and did see the last part
of the final quarter where the.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
One he's got up in one. But you're they're very
good this year.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
They are very good. It's up to ash you that
he can make his own choices.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
They can, you know, but he'll love us kick. They
do that really well. It was kicks. That'll be fun.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yeah. Yeah, he's really looking forward to it and a
lot of a lot of his mates are doing it too.
So he's had his little soccer squad for the preschool
which is still going. Yeah okay, but a lot of them,
so soccer will be on the Saturday, and then a
lot of them also doing the os kick for I
think it's maybe eight ten weeks or something, okay on
the Sunday.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, wow, that's great. Should we get into it.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Go to the lines all right. Today we are talking
to Yasmin London. Yasmin is a speaker host and the
founder of First movers Co, where she works with people
and organizations on leadership, technology, online safety, and what it
means to stay human in a very digital world.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Yeah. Now, Yasmin, she's had a really interesting career. She's
a former World champion athlete, a former New South Wales
police officer, and she's worked in the tech space, so
she brings a lot of real world experience to this conversation.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
A big part of Yasmin's work is helping people understand
the online world in a way that feels practical, not overwhelming,
especially when it comes to young people safety and digital wellbeing.
She's also a mom of two, so she brings both
the expert lens and the parent lens to this conversation.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
And for a lot of this all starts really simply.
You hand over the iPad while you're making dinner, You
put YouTube on during a long car trip, you give
them your phone because you just need five minutes. And
because they're still little, it doesn't always feel like online
safety yet, but those early screen habits are teaching children
something about boredom, patience, instant entertainment, asking for help, and
(04:23):
what to do when something online feels strange or confusing.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Oh, it's just about to see. You know how hard
it is to find DVDs now for kids.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Hard, really hard. But I have some friends who bought
little DVD players, the portable ones, yeah, and have found
DVDs andre actually watching old school movies and things with
their kids instead of streaming and the instant gratification and
sort of.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
You know, it's what we've been trying, but they're very
hard to find anyway. Today's conversation is about how we
help young children build digital street smarts before phones and
social media even part of the picture. So simo, let's
get into it.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yasmen, welcome to wiggle Talk. Oh hi, Yasman, Welcome to
wiggled Talk.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Thank you so much for having me. What a pleasure
and a surprise to be here. Who knew I'd be
talking to the Wiggles today.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Speaks Simon, is that I saw yes and Speak at
Ash's school, which is as soon as Yasmin finished, I
said to Lauren, we've got a Yasmin on the podcast
because so many incredible things to talk about.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Yes, thank you for coming and speaking to us today.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Oh my pleasure. It's so great to be here to
chat to you such an important topic too for younger kids,
so really really interested to have a chat.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Can we start with where online safety starts? I think,
you know or most most parents would put an iPad
or a laptop or YouTube on or you know, just
give them their phones. So is that the start of
online safety?
Speaker 4 (05:52):
Yeah, it sure is. I think you know, there's a
bit of a misconception that it's when someone hands over
a kid's sort of own phone, for example, but it
really does start, you know, the moment that they start
interacting with technology. You know, in Australia there's kids that
are just as old as three and four that are
spending upwards of three hours a day on iPads or
(06:13):
on mobile phones. And it's really really important, even at
that young age that we start to tell them and
teach them a bit about online safety, what is safe,
what technology use can feel like, and how what it
does to their body. You know, lots of parents, me included,
have dealt with you the tech tantrums and the meltdowns
that happen when we start using technology. So all of
(06:35):
those lessons are really important to start really early with
and to talk about often.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
And what are some of those lessons? What are some
of the things we can talk to our children about
regards to there's two separate things in their screen time,
and then there's online safety. And what are some of
the things what's some of the messaging we can talk
to our children about.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Yeah, well, I mean, let's start with online safety. That's
a really big one. And I think one issue that
a lot of parents are really worried about is strangers
contacting their kids. And that's a very genuine concern. And
so just like we might teach them about stranger danger
in the physical world, we've got to teach them a
bit about that from a young age, at an age
appropriate level, about what unsafe strangers might look like or
(07:18):
how they might act in an online environment. So, you know,
teaching them some really simple strategies like not speaking to
people that they don't know in real life or who
their parents don't know, for example, if you don't know
their first and last name, so that personal information about
that person, and making sure that they are who they
say they are. And then when we come to screen time,
(07:40):
I mean, that's a really really big one. There's lots
of kids watching a range of platforms. One that's really
really popular that a lot of parents don't seem to
think is a huge issue with something like YouTube and YouTube.
While it can be absolutely amazing in terms of quality
screen time with tools that are all videos that kids
can learn from, it can equally be a massive time waster.
(08:03):
We can have the issues around things like the AutoPlay
features that just continually keep kids in a loop watching
video after video, and of course there's those risks around
advertisements and you know what they're learning and what they're
being influenced by as well. So you know, what I
always speak about when I speak to parents about this
space is thinking more about the quality of the screen
(08:27):
time that kids are getting, So not just the hours
in front of a screen or the time that they're spending,
but what's the experience that they're having and who's influencing
their sense of self and their learning with it as well.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
This might be a silly question, but is it We've
got five year old kids. Is it even explaining what
the internet is?
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yeah? Absolutely, it's about showing how the Internet connects with
us as well. That when we're opening up an iPad
and perhaps we're putting information in, where is that information going?
So really on base level that that information can connect
to lots of different devices, and that there's lots of
different people on the other end of those devices. You know,
(09:09):
games like Minecraft or Roadblocks for example. You know, we've
seen in the media how risky a platform like Roadblocks
can be for young kids, and it's important for them
to understand that they're not just little lego characters running around,
you know, in these fictitious worlds, that there's real people
behind those lego characters. And it's just as important for
(09:29):
parents to realize that as well, because I think we
can fall into this trap of it looking a little
bit baby ish, or we might be naive to think
that it's just a game for kids, but it is
an ecosystem of games that are created by adults, and
of course there are adults behind all of those characters,
some with nefarious intentions for our kids, so we do
(09:51):
need to take it seriously.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Yeah, it was. I was reminded when you were talking
about with you today, when I heard you speak at
ash your school that as a parent, the online and
the online I keep wanting to say online gambling, well,
and it's happening there. You're not wrong, Simon, but online
gaming is it's important as parents, for us to actually
(10:12):
do our research, I think we can put our heads
in the end a little bit and go I don't
understand it, I don't know what it is, but to
actually go in there and find out what I'm now
starting to learn that there's a difference between there's an
educational component to Minecraft, there's also the gaming component to Mind,
which are two very different things, and actually, as a parent,
starting to understanding what that means for your child. Yeah,
(10:32):
and I guess that's a great place for parents to start,
is to actually do some research.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Yeah, And I think one of the biggest blockers Simon
is the time. Right We're all so busy. We don't
necessarily want to sit there and do reviews of every
game that our kids are wanting to use. Because I
don't know if your kids are like mine, but every
week there's a new cool app or a new game
that they're really interested in being part of. But we
do need to take the time, and we do need
to understand that the online world, it's not just a
(11:00):
series of platforms, it's a place, and just like physical
world environments, there are great aspects to that, but there
are dangerous aspects to that, as well, and so we
need to take the time to research what these games
are all about, what they perhaps look like on the
surface versus what actually goes on underneath the surface, and
why of course kids want to play these games as well.
(11:24):
You know, games like Roadblocks, of course can be really
fun and entertaining, but a lot of the time kids
are really driven to them because they want to connect
with their friends, they want to chat with other people,
they want to have fun, They want to create that
sense of autonomy and agency that a lot of the
time they don't necessarily get in their physical worlds, you know,
at school or at home. They're often told this is
(11:47):
what you've got to do. You've got to follow my rules.
And so there's a lot of human behavioral drivers that
underpin why they want to participate in these sorts of
worlds as well. And that's really handy for parents to
sort of do a bit of research on as well.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
That we can jump on and play the games and learn.
I think I've heard a few parents say that they
actually jump on and oh.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
You love that, Lucky you love it. I grew up
with the Space Invader's machine at the milk.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Bar, tiny skiol trying to get the knobs to work. Yeah,
I mean, Luckie, that's exactly right. I mean that's step
number one for so many parents is get in there
and find out what the game is all about. Play
with them. Aside from the fact that you know that
is quite good quality time with your kids. When you're
(12:37):
engaging in something that they're interested in, you know, they're
automatically going to share with you what happens. They get
to sort of stand in the role of the teacher,
which is a really empowered spot for them to be in.
And it's also a really good temperature test for you
as a parent to ask those kind of casual yet
curious questions, like you know, if somebody on roadblock started
(12:58):
talking to you and ask questions that made you feel
a bit uncomfortable or you're a bit uncertain about, what
would you do and how would you know? You know,
when was the right time to come and talk to
me about these sorts of things, or who would you
go to what would you do in the game to
remove that person? And it's a really really good way
of understanding their level of digital literacy, their understanding of risk,
(13:22):
and of course, when it comes to the features and
functions of every game, and most of them have at
least some tools to protect kids. What would they do
and how would they engage with those features and functions
to try and create a safer and more empowered experience.
So yeah, it really does start with sitting down, having
some fun again, taking the time so that you can
(13:42):
be present as well. You're not sort of checking your
phone or trying to know addswer emails at five pm
in the afternoon. You're really kind of there and present,
and that's a great start.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
And the younger you start these conversations your children, the better,
I guess.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
Yeah, absolutely, I think you know, it's always got to
be age of appropriate, but we've got to make sure
that we're not dropping the ball in terms of risk,
particularly around strangers. And you know, a really easy way
for young kids and parents to start having these conversations
is to talk about that sort of body safety curriculum
that they'll be learning about at school and applying that
(14:18):
to the online world. So if somebody asks you a
question like what's your full name or where do you live,
you know, how does that make your body feel? Does
that make you feel a little bit nervous? Are you
a bit unsure? Are you a bit you know, are
you questioning why they're asking that, and helping them really
understand that those are signals that perhaps this person might
(14:38):
be a little bit risky, not necessarily that they're bad,
but that we've got to be on alert. And one
of the things that I often share with parents, it's
a really good way of sort of talking to kids
about this too, is using a traffic light system, so
you know green, a person's not asking you any questions
that are making you feel uncomfortable, nothing's too personal. You know,
(14:59):
we might get to add amber or yellow, there might
ask one question. They might ask how old you are
or where you live, and then read they're asking, you know,
really personal questions or things like, you know, why don't
we get off roadblocks and download snapchats so we can
have a private conversation together and helping them understand, you know,
what's at each of those levels, and that no matter
(15:20):
what happens, no matter what, you can come to me
and I'll be able to help you in that situation.
You know, you're never going to be in trouble, You're
always going to be safe with me when you come
and talk to me about the issues that you're experiencing online.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I love that traffic light system that's This chat just
makes me think of like Denzil Washington or I just
I get really fired up having kids, wanting to protect
them and.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Balance, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
It's such a fine balance, but it's hard. One of
the skills is teaching them to stop, because you know,
we probably played like video games there was always an end.
Everything had an end. You've got to find a boss
level and then you had to go back and have
fun paying the game again. But now all these games
there's no end. Yeah, and I suppose YouTube in a
way just keep scrolling too. So I find we've got
(16:09):
an older boy too, and stopping is a real is
a real skill.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
Well, because we've got to understand as well with kids,
you know, primary school aged and below, their brains are
not at that point like adults where they can actually
go all right, I've had enough. I'm going to stop
now and I'm going to step away. So we've got
to help them in those situations. If we're on a game,
making sure that the auto play feature is turned off,
if we say, oh, you can have an hour watching
(16:35):
a video or a TV show that we have like
even a visual timer in front of them, and that
we give them those countdowns. You know, we come in,
we say ten minutes to go, five minutes to go.
We've got capturing their eye contact just so that they
start to understand, you know, that the time is starting
to run out, and those small steps, you know, they
(16:55):
can make a big difference to you know, the tech
tantrum or the meltdown that happens afterwards. And we've got
to understand as well that that behavior it's not always
because they're upset or angry. It's because they're trying to
regulate and they're trying to, you know, bring their brain
down to a state of homeostasis after being really stimulated
by bright colors and flashing lights and high activity and
(17:19):
really high intensity stimuli. So it's also understanding that brain
development and I guess the neuroscience behind it in many ways.
One of the interesting things as well that I thought
i'd share. I was doing some research on Sesame Street
recently and the videos that are now on YouTube versus
what you know, ten or fifteen years ago the original
(17:41):
Sesame Street I should say not ten or probably more
like twenty or three years. This is a sage. But
even the scene changes that they now have on current
Sesame Street, the scene changes happen every sort of three
to four seconds, whereas original Sesame Street was every thirty
to forty five seconds. And so if you think about
(18:02):
the difference in terms of attention spans and the ability
to regulate for kids and their patients, that has massive
impacts in terms of their capacity to do that. And
so these are some of the persuasive technology tactics that
games are using, that social media uses, that platforms streaming
services like YouTube are using to try and capture kids
(18:25):
attention and keep them online as much as possible.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
It is I know for us here at the Wiggles,
we tend to still have long edits before we cut
for that very reason because we understand how a child's
brain develops, and the faster the edits and the cuts
they're basically my understanding is their brain really can't keep up,
and so they kind of sit there in this mesmerized
state just trying to get their brain to actually kind
of catch up to what's going on, and then then
(18:52):
this sort of deep dive of this constant so to
sit there kind of just sort of almost a bit
numb as they watching these programs.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
They're kind of in that zombie like state, aren't they.
You know, they're just sort of absorbing. And I guess
that's the point, right if we're thinking about screen time,
not all screen time is created equal. It is about
focusing on the quality of that screen time, the skills
that kids are developing. Are they just sitting there like
a zombie, absorbing, or are they participating in a way
that's developing you know, their critical thinking. Are they playing
(19:23):
a game that's helping them work as a team, or
you know, think deeply about a particular subject. You know,
when it comes to the World Health Organization and the
American Academy of Pediatrics, they're kind of the gold standard
when we look at screen time. They say that, you know,
there should be zero sedentary time for kids under two.
But as we sort of get a little bit older
than that, we start to think more about that quality
(19:45):
screen time versus just the quantity and what that experience
looks like, you know, and how they're being captured. I guess,
you know, another way that kids will be sort of
captured is through things like color bias. You know, they're
bright reds and the orange and the yellows. Our brain
interprets red like an emergency. It's why a traffic light
(20:06):
is red or a stop sign is red. And so
of course that is integrated into games, it's integrated even
into thumbnails on YouTube to try and make sure that
people are attracted to that and clicking on it. So,
you know, it's helpful to have an understanding about how
all of that works and how that might be influencing
our kids and what they're watching.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
You're the red wiggle.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
I'm just one emergency, but you're doing a pretty good job.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
One big emergency.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
A big red car, my friends, a big red car.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Yeah, yeah, I don't think that never that thought out.
If you see your child is sort of responding, getting
agitated watching something, do we then try to ask the
(21:00):
questions to our child about them understanding how they're feeling
or knowing that this show or whatever they've been watching
has actually had a negative effect on them. Is there
a way of communicating that to our children?
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Yeah? Well, I think in the end it's pointing it
out to them, because often they're not going to self
reflect and identify that themselves. So it might be that
you know, they've watched something and they've had that tech
tantrum or they've had that meltdown, and they just they
kind of can't regulate themselves. And you know, with kids,
the behavior is the signal for us as parents to
know when too much screen time, for example, has been occurring.
(21:33):
They're not going to say, you know, I've had enough,
It's just that their behavior will tell us that they're
not okay. So yeah, it might be saying, look, you've
been watching for probably a little bit longer than I
thought we would. If you're feeling a little bit agitated.
That sometimes what happens because our brains start to feel
a little bit anxious or we start to feel a
bit uncomfortable after watching screens for a long period of time.
(21:55):
Another great thing that we can do is just get
them outside into you know nature. You know they say
green time and screen time. Making sure that we've got
that balance to help them regulate their emotions. But yeah,
it's helpful to sort of say, look, if you're feeling
like this, I can see that you're upset, or I
can see that you wanted to watch more. One of
the reasons is that you know, I can see you're
(22:17):
agitated now. And part of the reason of that might
be because you've watched too much of you know, your
particular show, or you've watched it or played a game
that's made you feel really hyped up. And sometimes as
well being vulnerable and authentic and sharing that you experience
that too, you could sort of say, look, when mommy
or daddy we spend a lot of time online, I
(22:38):
often feel this way too. You know what happens to
all of us, and so really normalizing that experience can
be helpful too for.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Kids, do you want to try and set up I mean,
I don't know who has proper computers now, but always
in a in the common room, yeah, absolutely, in the
lounde room or in the family room where you can
just always have an eye over.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
And yeah absolutely you want it to always be in
a central place in the house so a you can
keep an eye on what they're doing and you can
ask those questions. You know, you might walk past and say,
you know, who's Johnny? Where did you meet Johnny from?
While somebody's chatting to that person online? Or you know,
kids will use things like discord now and certainly not
really appropriate for primary age kids, but we know that
(23:20):
they're using it, which is you know, a server where
they can sort of text, where they can use voice chat,
and they use it as a gaming supplement to talk
to their friends, and so it might be annoying for
you while you're cooking dinner in the kitchen, but you
can overhear the way that they're speaking, who they're speaking about,
what they're saying, and you can ask those questions. It's
all information that you know, you can utilize to make
(23:43):
an assessment on whether something is good or not so
good for them. The other thing that I'd really recommend,
certainly for parents of primary age or younger kids, is
implementing parental controls on their devices, the family devices, of course,
and it's not to say that they're perfect, they're not,
but it's another barrier of protection. So you know, you
(24:06):
can limit their screen time with that, you can choose
what apps and games they're allowed to play, and you're
able to manage that. You're able to block them from
certain websites, or you can get an alert if they
try to search for something that you know you don't
want them to see, especially as they start to get older,
and it just creates that habit as well of safety.
It's a good talking point in the household. You know,
(24:30):
the one that I use with my girls, which I
mentioned in the presentation Simon, is custodio. And you know,
I've implemented that from the time that my kids were
you know, four and five years old, and they know
what it looks like when custodio pops up and blocks
them from a website that that's not a safe website
for them to go to. So it starts a conversation.
(24:51):
It gives you that opportunity to have that consistent moment,
you know, every day or every week with your child.
So you know, it's really handy to make sure that
we're im played menting and controlling their access to things
that we can't always see or know about as well.
So that's a good good strategy for parents.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
Yeah, that's a great point. And with I think I'm
in denial that the online gaming will happen for Asher,
who's only five. But what age do children actually start
to get involved in online gaming?
Speaker 4 (25:21):
Yeah, well, how long is a piece of string? I
guess it's really dependent on whether their parents allow them
access or even have any knowledge about what they're doing
in the first place. But I would say, you know,
as soon as they're at school, definitely, you know there'll
be kids in kindergarten that are playing on Roadblocks or
on Minecraft, and as we get a little bit older,
those games become more sophisticated, or they might play Fortnite
(25:44):
or Call of Duty, which is not appropriate for kids
of this age, but there's always going to be those
kids around, and vicariously they hear about it. And because
kids are curious and they want to know what this
is all about, and they don't want to be the
only person school that's either not on it or doesn't
have a clue what people are talking about, they will
(26:05):
just go and download it to see what it's all about.
They will try to sneak playing this game when you're
not watching, and in the end, that of course is
a behavioral issue in some ways, but as parents, we've
got to understand that this is also natural and the
nature of most kids. It's curiosity and wanting to be
part of something that belonging piece that I spoke about earlier,
(26:28):
And so when we come at it from that perspective
and we have that baseline understanding of the drive to
play these games, we're much better equipped to try and
deal with it, but of course it comes down to
knowing what the game is, what the risks are, and
making a balanced judgment for your family on what you know.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
It's been interesting lately with birthday parties. Actually has been
invited to a few and now it's done those gaming
arcades actually go and have a party there, which is
a whole new We went ten bin bowling the other
night and there was a game section there and went
in there and they're pretty full on.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Do you mean the retro ones or do you mean
like the virtual reality games.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
That they're going, like your time Zones and all those
kind of Yeah, and it's like there's only a few
games there which you are age appropriate, and it's probably
really the one with the claw trying to get a
fluffy dome.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
Where you're getting trapped into spending forty five dollars.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Yeah, that's right, Teddy, you're never going to get It's
fascinating that's starting to become a thing. And I think
a lot of it's because there's older siblings. There's a
whole range of reasons for it. But I was a
bit taken aback that that was now a party destination.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Yeah, and that you're so right with that. So I'm
in the challenge with older siblings, like I've seen that
with my own kids. You know, I've got a nine
year old and a twelve year old, and you know,
it's almost mission impossible in some ways to keep the
nine year old in her age appropriate level when the
twelve year old is not doing a lot. But you know,
there is a difference there in terms of maturity, and
(27:59):
that's a real challenge for parents. I wish I had
the silver bullet solution to that, but it is about
just trying to be consistent, and I guess putting in
those boundaries of age being the reason. But it's really
hard when they're into two different things and for one
it might be okay and the other not so much.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Yeah, it must be really hard. I was wondered, did
your perspective of online safety, the work you did that
change once you had children yourself?
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Did it change? I mean, it became more real for me.
There was a couple of incidents. I was a police
officer for thirteen years, so I had a couple of
incidents before I had children that really taught me about
the impact of the online world. One was a suicide
negotiation with a teenage girl. I had other situations where
(28:47):
because I was a youth Liaison officer, I worked a
lot with young people, and funnily enough dealt with some
kids that had quite significant gaming addictions and their response
was quite violent, and so we were in situation where
I was dealing with a DV situation because this young
person was lashing out in quite a serious way against
their families. Now that's an extreme, of course, you know,
(29:10):
there's extreme ends of the spectrum. But I guess it
taught me about the importance of balance and early intervention
and having a good baseline understanding of the risks and
the benefits early on, and I say, you know the benefits.
It's really important to not be too anti tech as
a parent because, as we've mentioned, technology can be amazing
(29:33):
and of course we're entering this AI era where that
is fundamentally changing our workforces, our lives in many ways,
and so we do need kids to be literate in
terms of AI and digital technologies, and really importantly, we
need to make sure that they know that we're not
anti tech, so that they come to us if there's
(29:54):
a problem. As I mentioned before, help seeking when it
comes to the online world, is probably the single biggest
protective factor for kids. And so if we're constantly that
parent that says, oh, I hate social media and games
are just there to make you addicted and YouTube's all
mindless crap, they're going to hear that and go all right, Well,
the day that I have a problem, I'm not quite
(30:15):
that confident coming to mum or dad. But maybe I'll
just try to deal with this myself, because I don't
want to deal with that catastrophizing and the blame game
and the drama I guess that surrounds that conversation, And
so we really want to make sure that they feel
that they can come to us and that we're going
to be able to help them and make sure that
(30:35):
decision was a good one for them in their eyes.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
It's such a good point.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
I'm definitely on the side of I don't understand Washington.
I mean, it's not hard for you, not at all. Yeah,
we've kind of had that view at the moment of
just not for the younger kids, for the older ones
is just too important, and we just kind of we
don't shut it off at all, And there's definitely lots
(31:01):
of conversations happening but it's just like you can wait
until you're older. It's not worth it. And you know,
we sit on our Instagram and just sc we know
what it does. We're trying to hold back, but that's
actually really lovely to hear that you want them to
come to you. We're absolutely not shutting it off, but
everyone knows it's there's so many yucky parts about it.
Speaker 4 (31:24):
You know. I know families that have no screen time
and not even a television in the household and that
works for them. And then I know families that kids
have American accents because they spend so much YouTube, Like
I think we've all been exposed to that, and you know,
for me, I don't judge anyone. There's a lot of
reasons that perhaps people will have kids spending more time
(31:47):
online than others, so we will have to make the
right decisions for our family unit. And there is a
lot of guilt as well around what we should be
doing and what other people are doing. But I think
in the end, it goes back to understanding your family
dynamic your kids. If your children are giving the signal
that perhaps they're spending too much time online, if there's
(32:07):
behavioral issues, if they can't regulate their emotions if they're
not sleeping at night, or they're not able to eat,
or if we're eating every meal in front of the iPad.
Those sorts of things are indicators that perhaps we need
to have some tweaks and changes. There's professional help that
can help you with that, but often it's just about
a matter of changing, you know what that dynamic looks
(32:28):
like for your family, being consistent with the rules. It's hard.
It is hard to be consistent. It's hard to have
that argument every night. It's hard to toe the line
and stick to your guns and say no to that
last episode before they go to bed, or wanting to
use your phone when you're busy, like it is a
challenge that no other generation of parents really have had
(32:52):
to deal with, and so I think we've got to
give ourselves a little bit of leeway with that. But
consistency is ultimately what creates those changes. And I think
one suggestion that I could give to parents that's really
helpful is if we can try and bring back, you know,
sitting around the dinner table as a family at dinner
time and talking to each other without devices. Sometimes little
(33:15):
moments of connection like that over a consistent period of
time five six nights a week. Let's say we don't
do it every night, but you know that's really valuable.
That's where you start to get to know your kids.
That's where you can learn about what's going on online.
You know, you might have that conversation how are school today,
and then at the same time you're saying, hey, so
(33:36):
what's happening on Roadblocks or who you're playing with on Minecraft?
Or what are you building right now that you're excited about,
and that starts that natural flow of a conversation where
you learn quite a lot and they see that you're
interested as well.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
That's a really good idea. And also I guess being
aware ourselves as parents of our screen time in front
of our children, they're modeling behavior. So it's actually if
we're saying one thing to them, we don't need to
be willing to do it ourselves.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
Yeah, well, my kids crucify me if I try to
say you want to get off tech and then I'm
still there emailing. But you know it is, You're so right, Simon,
Like parents for kids are the first and most crucial
and influential role model. And you know, the hard thing
is is we're required to be connected for the most part,
(34:23):
and you know, to try and battle that if you
are getting those criticisms from your kids. Sometimes, for me,
I'll tell them what I'm doing. So, yes, it might
be emailing, but I'm sort of putting together the golden
thread of that email means that I get that speaking work,
which means that I can pay for us to go
on a great holiday. You know, this is the connection.
(34:44):
You know. It might be I'm doing the wool Worst
Shop and gosh, I don't want to be doing the
wool Worst Shop at nine pm at night, Like who
wants to deal with all of that? But I'm doing
that so we have food.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
So it's the.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
Functionality there, not just I'm hanging and doom scrolling on Instagram.
So that can be handy to over communicate and explain
why you're connected. It's not that you're just gaming with
your friends.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Yeah, and that's verally interesting and what other guests we've
had on as well talk about that that narration, So
you actually narrate to your children exactly step by step
what you're doing and what's going on, which then keeps
informed and then can you know as a better consequences
and understanding what's actually happening.
Speaker 4 (35:22):
It's those teachable moments. And again like that takes time
and it takes energy, and you're not always going to
be able to do that. But as a parent, if
you can get into that habit of trying to lean
into those teachable moments, you know, I've done this, and
this has been the outcome. I have to do the
will workshop. And this is because we get food. I'm
connecting with my friend on Instagram because she lives in
(35:43):
another country and it's the right time zone. That's why
I'm doing that now. Helping them understand the context is
actually really important. The nuance matters in these situations.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Otherwise they look up and just see you staring at it. Yeah,
staring at the phone. That's what they see.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
Absolutely. And for parents, you know, maybe it is a
matter of us reflecting on our own habits and pulling
back a little bit. You know, everybody gets sucked into
the doom scroll here and there. And I think sometimes
when our kids challenge us, it might be a moment
for us to not be so defensive and perhaps go, yeah,
you know what, You're actually right. I've been spending a
(36:21):
bit too much time at night. I'm going to make
an effort to try and not to do that. And
when we explain that to our kids, it actually shows
that we're not perfect either, and that you know, this
isn't a fixed experience, and that we're making the effort
to try and improve our habits too, and that that's
an ongoing, you know, evolving process for us as adults
as well.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
It's so good, yes, and ultimately, what will Denzil do?
You know? Well, I'm taking away, I'm taking a lot
away from this chap. But really lucky you Washington.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
He does not love I was watching The Bone Collected
the other that was an old one. Is amazing.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
That's a good film.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
Not safe for kids, parents.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
I don't know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
He's the ultimate protector.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
He's I've got to buy an old school flip phone.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Thank you guys.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
Yeah, my pleasure.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
It's such a great Yeah, so good. It was really
really great information for our listeners and for ourselves as well.
So thank you for coming on.
Speaker 4 (37:27):
Wigill talk, very very happy, happy to be the Wiggles
cyber safety experts.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
Yeah, extraordinary, thank you, And I'll think differently next time
I put my red skivy on.
Speaker 4 (37:40):
Did you notice that I did try to wear my
skivy today?
Speaker 3 (37:43):
Yeah, very good, it's very good. Black wiggle cybersecurity black.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
That's going to say that's a bit dark and dangerous,
I promise I'm not.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Thank you so much, thank you, Thanks guys. That was
excellent with y Asmon.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
She's great.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Having heard her at Asher School, I'm so glad we
managed to get her on because she's got so many
great things to talk about. A lot of it feels
scary as a parent, I think, But just the point
you said a few times, and a few of our
wonderful guests have said the same thing, is that you
want to make sure you have an open line of
communication with your children so that if something is going on,
(38:25):
that they feel comfortable to come and talk to you,
no matter what it is, that they're not going to
get in trouble, then come to you and you can
work through it whatever the issue might be.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, and like street smart conversations, and you know, as
your kids grow up, that's now you're doing that for
online stuff. Yeah, that's right, your phones and anything. Now
it's just a whole other area of communication that you
want to keep open. I just flashes of adolescents TV shots.
Oh yeah, that just kept popping up throughout that chat.
Speaker 3 (38:56):
That was an extraordinary show. If anyone hasn't watched out unbelieve, Yeah,
make yourself a cup of tea because stronger.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
There was a computer in the room. That's what we
made me think in the boys room. But just but yeah,
you just want to be have those conversations. It's only
a good thing. That was awesome. Thank you Yasmin, and
thank you for listening today to wiggle Talk. If you
would like to find out more about yasmine and her work,
you can look at Yasminlondon dot com and we'll pop
(39:26):
the link in our show notes.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
And as always, thank you for listening to wiggled Talk.
If you enjoyed this episode, follow the show, share it
with another parent, and we look forward to seeing you
next time. And that's it for wiggled Talk this week.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Goodbye, right
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