Elizabeth Hall: Defence Lawyers' Association co-Chair says Police culture needs to change

A law group wants to see a culture shift at Police - while also welcoming an Inspector-General.

The new position was announced, in response to a scathing IPCA report.

It identified a number of issues around how Police's senior leadership team failed to deal with complaints about then-Deputy Commissioner Jevon McSkimming in a timely and respectful manner.

Defence Lawyers' Association co-Chair Elizabeth Hall told Heather du Plessis-Allan the culture at Police needs to change.

She says if people don't feel they can talk or raise complaints that will be listened to, then information flow will not take place.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now on the Geviamcskimming case. One of the concrete outcomes
from that IPCA report is the new role of the
Inspector General of Police which has been established by Judith Collins.
It will provide independent oversight, but other than that, very
little detail was given. Now, Elizabeth Hall is the co
chair of the Defense Lawyers Association and with us Hire. Elizabeth,
are you convinced by this as a solution.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Look, I think it's a complex problem and anything that's
a step in the direction of independence, genuine practical independence
oversight is welcomed. I'm not sure i'd call it a solution.
Why not, because there are a number of problems that
I think have been revealed in the IPCA report and

(00:42):
that just are things that we know from common sense,
and part of what has been revealed I think as
a culture and the culture shift needs to change so
that people feel that they can bring concerns forward, so
that the police can investigate police officers police misconduct, both

(01:03):
within their role is police staff and for police officers
that commit misconduct that might amount to crime outside of
their role as police officers. And if people aren't in
an environment where they feel they can talk about it
and they feel that they can raise complaints and that
they feel that those complaints will be listened and that
they won't have you retribution brought to bear on them,

(01:26):
then the information flow isn't going to happen, is it.
So absolutely, structural change can be helpful, but it's not
a solution on its own.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
Do you think I mean in this case, would the
police officers who were trying to raise concerns and who
are a little bit worried about the process and whatnot,
would they have raised their concerns with the Inspector General.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
Well, that's one of the commentators that's been talking in
the last couple of days. That's the concern they've raised.
Wellf they're not going to raise them in the system
structure that there is, why would they raise it in
a different system structure? And the press conference with the
Attorney General and Mark Mitchell, etcetera. And you know, there

(02:07):
was very little detail given about what it actually would
look like, who's actually going to be staffing it. And
so we have got the IPCA strengthening the IPCA. It
is certainly a good step in my view, but whether
it makes a real change to outcome, it's difficult to know,
but I think, don't we just have to go back
to basics and look at, you know, the culture within

(02:28):
the police, because we know from what's happened in New
Zealand that we have got instances of police misconduct, both
within and outside the scope of an officer's duties, both
that pose serious risks to public trust and to justice.
Elizabeth police officers committed a crime in their private lives
and have committed crimes as police officer.

Speaker 1 (02:49):
I just keep wanting to interrupt you on this and
say to you, Okay, we're talking about a culture in
the police, but isn't this isn't this something that any
one of us could have fallen victim to that We've
got a friend, We've got somebody we think is a
good sort. They tell us that they've had a bad
breakup and the other ones the bunny boiler, and you
believe them, and then because it's your mate and you
believe them, and so then all you know, you start

(03:10):
to see that everything that you see points to that
being the case, that's the narrative you believe, and then
you try to stop the other person who you believe
to be the bad person from actually doing bad things.
So couldn't any one of us have like, is this
a culture problem? Or is this just a humanity problem?

Speaker 2 (03:26):
Okay, so, first of all, I think that the conversations
is more productive if it's taken outside of the mixgivvings scenario.
And I'm certainly happy to make those general you know,
provide some general information from my perspective anyway, about what
I think is wrong and what I think the solutions
could be, because it is just an example that's been

(03:46):
brought to the public attention. But it's a bigger and
a deeper issue. And that's one of the comments that
I've made recently is that police officers are just humans.
They are humans who wear iron uniforms but are still
subject to all of the foibles of the human character.
And so yes, I think to a degree with an egg.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
Are you still there, Elizabeth? If you can hear me,
you've muted yourself, So I need you to unmute yourself.
Oh no, do you know what's happened? Can you hear
the birds? Can you hear the I can hear the birds,
So you know what's happened is somebody's turned on Elizabeth's
car or the Bluetooth player or I don't know, open

(04:36):
the AirPods container and her call has switched to that. No,
don't worry about a bee. That's okay. I will run
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