July 10, 2024 • 41 mins
In this episode, Kelly and Tiffany discuss the complexities of making informed decisions during pregnancy. From personal anecdotes to practical advice, they cover the intricate process of declining health interventions and making autonomous choices.
00:00 Introduction
00:30 The Joys of Podcasting
01:23 Declining in Pregnancy
14:59 Informed Consent and Declination
05:16 Navigating the Skincare Dilemma
07:04 Parental Guidance and Compromise
12:53 Shopping for Safe Skincare Products
14:48 Emotional Rollercoaster of Parenting
15:06 Autonomy in Health Decisions
30:32 Pressure from Society and Self
28:17 Provider Pressure
37:55 Conclusion and Resources
Links to all the extra good stuff:
Things you can decline freebie: HERE
Medical Self-Advocacy Resource: HERE
Low-Tox Summer Options: HERE
Childbirth Education Wait List: HERE
Join our email community: HERE
Submit your answer-on-the-show questions: HERE
Be sure to subscribe to the podcast to catch every episode. Follow us on Instagram for extra education and antics between episodes at: @beautifulonemidwifery
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to At Home with Kellyand Tiffany, where naturally
minded women gather together aswe pursue simplicity and
confidence in healthalternatives, so we can show up
better in our busy lives andfeel more at home in our bodies.
Join your favorite home birthmidwife duo for conversation,
candor, and community.
You're at home with Kelly andTiffany.
(00:20):
I'm Kelly and I'm Tiffany.
I'm happy to be here.
It's a good place to be on thisMonday morning.
Whenever you're listening.
I like recording podcasts withyou.
Sometimes I have that feeling oflike, you know, when we are
about to record and I'm likehaving to leave my house.
I'm like, oh, I gotta leave myhouse.
But then when I get here, I'malways like, this is so good.
(00:43):
We like start talking.
I'm like, I'm just talking withmy friend about some things that
I care about.
I think like in a season thatwe're in right now, which is.
Creating a lot of content for alot of projects that we're
working on.
That has put the podcast intoperspective to make the podcast
just looked like fun.
Yeah, we get to do we just getto like sit and chat while our
(01:06):
kids play and we're like, sorry,we have to go spend time
together and have conversations.
Yeah.
And like I like we've, we've,we've gone so many directions
with the podcast over the years,and I agree with you that,
right, right now in this space,I am so grateful that we get to
do it.
Me too.
I'm excited to talk about whatwe're talking about today too,
because the idea of declining.
(01:28):
Things in your pregnancy or inanywhere in your health, right?
It sounds like, oh, you just sayno, right.
Or you just decline it.
And there's so much.
More.
More potentially to just, justsaying no.
I should tell my fifth gradeself when I took my dear class.
Did you have to take that Derek?
Of course they did.
There's not evidence-basedeither.
(01:49):
No.
So that didn't work.
Just say no.
So here we are.
Talking about why there's morenuance than dare.
I do love when the, like thet-shirts resurface from thrift
stores and stuff.
Cause.
So I call on it.
Oh yeah.
I, this is majorly off topic.
(02:12):
I remember we had to make skits.
I forget.
Even what grade you teach fifthgrade, maybe, maybe the younger,
they have to take that class ormaybe you do it a few times.
I kind of forget, but we had tomake a skit about like the
dangers of junk driving orsomething.
We didn't, we were too young toeven know really what like being
drunk actually meant orwhatever.
Anyway, we were like making theskit and it's all just.
(02:34):
Looking back on it.
And this is the feedback we got.
It was all just like thepositives of these like friends
getting drunk together.
And he was like, well, youdidn't really like, bring the
story around of like the nights.
We were like, oh, I don't know.
I don't even know what you'retalking about.
Ooh.
Yeah.
Or like it's just regurgitated.
Stuff.
Yes.
Wait.
Johnny know drinking is bad.
(02:55):
I made a, I made a poster with abow.
I drew a bottle on it with likethe circle and a line through
it.
And on the bottle, this is howlittle I, I knew at the time I
wrote marijuana.
Good job.
I don't drink that bottle of.
Ana.
And I remember my, my parentslooking at it and being like,
I'm not going to tell her isfine.
(03:16):
It was a bottle of marijuana.
Don't do that.
Just say no.
Oh, my gosh.
Okay.
Do you remember that commercial?
We're getting off track here.
Do you remember that?
this is your brain.
This is your brain on drugs.
It's like an egg being crafted.
Yes.
Here's your brain.
It's all just perfect and fine.
(03:37):
But this is your brain lungdrugs.
We're going to smash it with afriend pan.
It's going to get all scrambledup.
I understand the message behindit.
Don't do drugs.
Yes.
But.
The, we, we missed a step thereand it actually being effective.
So I told my kids a couple ofyears ago, I don't know how it
(03:57):
ended up coming up, but youknow, in our families, we just
talk about.
A lot of uncomfortable things.
I would let them know people dodrugs because it feels good.
Yeah.
Initially, it seems like a greatchoice.
It feels good.
It takes away.
Lots of uncomfortable feelings,but it's a slippery slope.
(04:18):
Well, I talked to my kids thatway about sex.
Yeah.
Like it.
You don't have to shy away fromsome of the truth of situations.
People do this because it feelsgood.
Please don't get pregnant whenyou're a teenager.
That would have a lot of.
Difficult consequences for yourlife.
But the reason people are doingit is because it feels good.
(04:38):
Yeah.
Versus like, I don't know whywe're just telling people jugs
or bad jugs or adjunct or bad.
They have devastatingconsequences.
But.
You don't just like it.
I don't know, cave to the peerpressure.
And then right.
There's there's just the pieceof context around all of the
(04:59):
pieces of this.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Which is very similar to makingdecisions in.
Your pregnancy and labor.
This is your pregnancy.
This is your pregnancy on forcedinterventions.
Okay, there we go.
It's all scrambled up.
But before we jump into that, Ihave an update on the skincare
(05:21):
dilemma.
Great that I was having with mygirls.
A few months ago, and it has allkind of come to a head this week
and I thought let's share it onthe podcast because I had a
couple moms reach out to me andgo, thank you so much for.
Saying that you're having such ahard time with this piece
because we are too, we don'trent to do.
And then I was talking toanother mom last night and she
(05:41):
was like, have you ever thought,just like like don't, don't
restrict them at all.
And I was like, yeah, I haveactually, but that's ah, I
dunno.
I don't know.
There's something about that.
That's like, so I can see thevalue and not putting rules on
whatever, but like, as.
And not creating a complex.
Yes, that's important.
(06:01):
Yes.
But.
Unreal.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
So anyways, what we decided todo since then was I had to have
a serious talk with my kids andsay, we, I know I've been a
little bit wishy washy on thisso far, I'm making a clear
stance on.
This is not what we're going todo.
Four.
You know, The, these types ofproducts that are going to be in
(06:24):
my home.
And so I just want you girls toknow I'm gonna work really hard
to help you to find the thingsthat you want that are safe and
okay.
But from now on, we're not goingto do any of this.
And my kids are like, so do wehave to throw away all of our
things that are not okay?
And I'm like, no, but just as wemove forward with what we're
buying, let's be intentionalabout it.
(06:44):
And then one of my children wasextremely upset with that.
Like like mourning the loss ofwhat this could potentially.
I mean for her identity, herfuture, her.
Good.
Everything that could possiblygo wrong happened in this
conversation.
And.
(07:04):
Like a, like a great parent.
We pause the conversation andrevisited it the next day and
not kids side.
Would you be willing tocompromise?
And I said, tell me what thiscompromised.
It looks like, and we talk tothat a little bit and I'm like,
I really want to work with youon this because it's so
important.
(07:25):
And I feel strongly in, you feelstrongly and you feel strongly
for different reasons, but.
So the compromise was you canbuy one more terrible thing.
Okay.
And I felt like I could give it.
Yeah, because the overallpicture was we're working on
this other, we're going thisother direction together.
(07:46):
And honestly, at the end of theday, that's like, Even if there
are using this.
Terrible thing for a whilelonger, the decrease in toxic
burden on the body is continuingto decrease.
As you know, as those otheritems are falling off or being
emptied, new things are beingbrought in that kind of thing.
And so like, there's, there's abalance there.
(08:07):
Yes.
And I want to.
I don't want to look.
Or participate in the situationand like a Dick Tarion way.
Right.
Like, I want to want to be like,let's, let's this goal that I
have.
Let's, there's multiple ways toit.
Let's figure out how to getthere.
And as a kid is getting older,too.
I'm envisioning which kid thisis.
(08:28):
Yeah.
As they're getting older andnavigating a bit more, you know,
personal autonomy within thesafety.
Of the home.
That's a good thing to like, bewilling to listen to.
Yes.
Yeah.
And to me it didn't, it wasn'tjust about the skincare and
makeup stuff.
It was like, this is a chance.
(08:48):
To establish a way that we workthrough lots of conflict that
has got to be on the horizon.
As that piece plays out, thatautonomous I'm growing up.
I want my own independence.
I don't want my mom telling mewhat lotion I can use.
So.
And she was saving up for thisone special, really bad thing.
That was a big part of it.
(09:09):
Dream attached to who she couldbecome if this bad thing.
Great.
And.
So I, there was, and then therewas a multi-step process to
getting this thing.
And we, we got it and it wasn'tquite right.
And we returned it and we gotanother one and we paid for
(09:29):
shipping that we couldn't getrefunded.
And like, there are many, manylessons were learned in
acquiring this one last badthing.
And then right around the timethat we started using that.
Consistently.
Oh, no.
Now there's some dermatologicalreactions.
Okay.
(09:50):
Natural consequences.
And I, as soon as it startedhappening, I knew it.
And I didn't say a dang thing.
I'm proud of you because I'mlike, you need to have the few
need to experience the fullnessof this.
Yes, absolutely.
Choice.
And so it wasn't until this weekthat she came to me and she was
like, I need help.
Oh, We need help managing this.
(10:14):
And I'm like, yeah.
Okay.
Let's see, what are we going todo about that?
And so I'm hoping that.
That experience, not that youever want, like bad things to
happen to your kids, or younever want them to like, have to
suffer because of theirconsequences, but in a.
Controlled safe.
(10:35):
Right.
I'm right here kind of way, likewalking out this thing.
Yeah.
You know, which, you know, formany, many children there would
never, they.
There would never be a visible.
Anything to their choices.
Yes.
That's another reason why I feellike my kids in particular need
to be extra careful about thisstuff, because we are just more
(10:59):
something.
Our skin is absolutely insane.
Yeah.
So so that's where we are.
We are like, we are like tryingto heal and recover from.
This big thing.
This is a great, this is a greatfollow-up and I feel like
there's so many pieces of likehow, I mean, even as adults,
(11:19):
right?
Idolizing certain things.
And then realizing, oh, that'snot.
Obviously like where myfulfillment is going to come
from, or like, that's not goingto fill this one hole that I
have, that I, that I want.
And so that's a good lesson tobe walking through of like, I
don't know, there's certainthings, certain kids, I mean,
every kid, it may not beskincare, but it may be
(11:41):
something else that like turnsinto an idol of some kind.
And you're like, and I guessthat can go the other way, if
you're so hung up on.
I don't know.
What exact ingredients that youcan not have, whatever.
Yes exactly.
But this is like such a good,safe way to walk through.
Some of it wouldn't want, youknow, skincare issues.
That's like a bummer, especiallythat age.
(12:03):
It just doesn't feel good.
But That's a good naturalconsequence and helpful to like
walk through that.
Yeah, totally.
Okay.
And so one of the funny little,like pieces of this is.
That I told my kids.
I'm not taking you to Sephoraand Ulta anymore, just to walk
around and look at all thethings you can't have.
It just don't see the value inthat coughing the whole way.
Yeah.
And the last time I went inthere, I was like, no, we just
(12:24):
can't do this.
It's.
Look at for me I'm I have to bethere with you.
Breathing that air.
And so I told them there'snothing here that you can have
anyways, besides like hairclips.
So.
There's just no point in uswalking around, looking at it
and testing it and stuff.
However, as I was researchingskin barrier repair and.
(12:47):
Certain ingredients that you dowant in some of these products,
when you're trying to work onthat.
I found.
Great company that has reallygood EWG ratings.
And everyone says, don't buythis on Amazon because there's
too many, there's too muchinconsistency.
It's one of those products thatthey're like, this isn't the
real thing.
(13:08):
So like, don't buy it on here.
Because when I go to look, wherecan you buy news?
Ulta is one of the realtors.
Or.
Real.
Retailers.
They're realtors also.
One of those places has beautycounter.
Yes.
Ulta.
(13:28):
Okay.
Those are maybe two things.
So I was like, oh gosh, ofcourse, of course I need to like
go to my kids now and say, I amsorry.
Actually, there are things thatyou can have.
I actually need to go thereright now and pick this stuff up
for you.
Oh, that's interesting.
But, yeah.
So I learned that I've learnedthat that for myself, We went on
(13:49):
a journey in our home.
My child learned a lot aboutlots of those things, and we'll
see where this takes us, but itdidn't inspire me to.
Get our low talks, summer list,spiffed up and updated.
And I did add these products tothat list.
(14:11):
So even though if you guys willlook I think it's called, I
think it's called cocoa kind.
Is the brand.
If you look on our low toxsummer list, which I'll link in
the show notes, you'll see inthose reviews, people say, don't
get it on the Amazon, butanyways, you can see the actual
product there and go find it atyour local old.
And again, they had great, greatreadings on these really cute.
(14:34):
Skincare thing was that that's,that seems to be a part of it is
just having.
Aesthetically pleasing product.
Products.
But these products will actuallyhelp to.
Fortify your skin barrier.
I love it.
Woo.
I love it very much.
We've we've been on an emotionalrollercoaster so far in this
episode.
Oh, we didn't even get to the,the stuff about declining, which
(14:57):
is sure to be emotional.
Yep.
Okay.
So you guys hear us on thispodcast.
You follow us on Instagram andwe're just constantly trying to
shop from the rooftops.
Like you can decline, you candecline, you can decline.
There's there's nothing you canto decline.
But it is easier said than done.
And so I thought we would spendan episode just kind of getting
(15:17):
into the nuances of that andtalk about informed consent
informed declination and helpwomen navigate it a little bit
more practically.
In everyday life.
Yeah.
It's, it's one thing to say.
No.
In your mind, or like when I goin.
I know that these things aregoing to be offered and I'm
(15:38):
going to say no, or you're inthe appointment and things are
offered potentially in a waythat makes you feel like maybe I
shouldn't say yes, but Iactually don't know yet.
Right.
Or being able to kind of sortthrough those pieces.
And like the actual conversationof declining something.
Right.
And so I feel like taking a stepback and understanding.
Some of the kind of nuances of.
(16:01):
Making decisions.
Of voicing your own opinion isreally, really important.
I feel like as, as you'rewalking through any of these
things, being able to take amoment to be intentional, to
even ask yourself, Like saysomething is offered to you,
right?
Or, you know, something will be,or you're looking and you're
(16:22):
just being very proactive onwhat's going on in this
trimester for you.
What is normal to be you know,recommended, which has been a
cool part of what we're doing inour childbirth education class
of this, like kind of beingaware of what will kind of be
coming up this trimester to beable to give some context to
that, but even asking yourself,like, is this something that I
want, right.
(16:43):
Is this lab something I want todo?
Is that information from theultrasound, something I want is.
Is that vaginal exam.
Is that something that I dowant, like, what are, what is
your motive for decliningsomething?
Is it because you saw somebodyon Instagram say don't drink
that glute Cola drink, but whatif you actually want to write.
(17:05):
And so what if that feels likethe right decision, but you're
trying to navigate saying no,because you feel like you
should, or the other way around,right there.
Six, so many little, littlepieces there, but I feel like
that is a.
Important aspect of figuring outwhat it is you actually want.
And being able to move forward.
From there.
(17:25):
Yeah.
And I think like it, we can fallinto a ditch on one side of the
road.
That's, I'm going to just doeverything that I'm told and we
could fall into a ditch on theother side of the road.
That is I'm, I'm overwhelmed.
I think everyone's out to getme.
I'm just going to declineeverything and then I'll avoid
all of that potential conflict.
And so you have to ask yourselflike, Are you actually
(17:46):
declining?
Are you really saying like, I donot want this.
I think that a little bit ofbirth vision work can kind of
help in this area too, likewomen who are willing to sit and
do the work of like, what doesthis ideal experience look like
for me?
Does that include, is that goingto, am I going to need to
decline a bunch of things inorder to make that happen?
Maybe?
(18:06):
Yeah.
But potentially you would bemore willing to go to the links
in which you need to foryourself once, you know, this is
what this experience is going tolook and feel and be remembered
by.
Yeah, absolutely.
And so you've heard us mentionthis before.
There's sort of this acronymthat you can walk through in
your own head as you are disckind of you know being offered
(18:30):
things.
What are the benefits, right?
This brain idea.
What are the benefits?
What the are being risks.
What is that?
A alternatives or do you haveother options?
I, your instincts, what is yourgut telling you?
And like, what if you just donothing?
What if you just kind of likekeep going the road that you're
going down and don't do a singlething.
And so that's like a reallyimportant piece of making a
(18:52):
truly informed choice andfeeling confident that when you
walk in to say, no, you're likemy no is going to be my no, and
I know why.
And that is really powerful.
I feel like because then youactually have solid grounding to
stand on.
Absolutely.
I would say one of the biggestchallenges in declining things
for women is just actually theconfrontation.
(19:15):
The actual saying no part.
I think it's really easy for usto fall into people.
Pleasing habits.
It's really easy for us to justavoid confrontation and just be
peacekeepers, but there are lotsof ways to say no.
And I usually recommend womenwho are struggling with it.
Like me to practice how they'regoing to decline and just say
(19:38):
out loud to yourself, like inthe mirror that morning.
You are smart.
Beautiful.
But exactly what you're going tosay.
And there's lots of ways to sayno, you can say no.
Thank you.
I'm not going to do that rightnow.
I heard your recommendation, butI am still declining.
(19:59):
I appreciate the information,but we're still undecided.
I won't be doing that.
I think saying I won't be doingthat.
It's so much more effective thansaying no thank you.
Or like, oh no.
Cause then you gonna say like,oh, I have actually taken in all
the information.
I did a little bit of myresearch already and I've come
(20:20):
to the conclusion that I won'tbe doing that.
You can also say I do notconsent.
That's really strong, strongwords, but in a birth
environment where somebody iscoming at the umbilical cord
with scissors, you might have tosay, you don't have my consent
to cut the cord.
And he, and they hear that.
And the room hears that.
(20:40):
And especially the idea ofconsent in general is.
W having a moment.
It is like in EV as it should,right.
Is having like a lot of peopleare aware of what that really
means.
And the, and the gravity of it.
So saying that.
Usually holds quite a bit ofweight, especially for people in
the medical.
(21:01):
Community.
But yes, I completely agree.
I was the people pleasingperson.
I mean, I'm like recovering, Isuppose.
But for sure, in my firstpregnancy, I remember feeling
very uncomfortable being like,oh, I read this thing, but
actually the way that you'redescribing it maybe I do that in
like just kind of questioningand not wanting to kind of push
(21:22):
the envelope.
So it's a, it's a real thing ofin your head wanting to say no,
but then the reality of actuallygetting those words out when
your heart is racing or you'refeeling really uncomfortable.
Or now you're questioningeverything because potentially
you're feeling.
I don't know, belittled or as ifyou don't.
As if you don't know as muchabout that specific thing.
(21:42):
You can trust your trust, yourinstinct on that too.
And if you are in that space,You don't actually have to make
a decision in the moment or ifyou're uncomfortable.
With the firmness of thatdecision, depending on what it
is right.
To just kind of give yourself.
A bit more time too, and justkeep pushing it off.
(22:02):
If you have to that, you'restill deciding that you're
unsure that you need to do moreresearch, those types of things
so that If you're still workingon that piece, that gives you a
little bit more.
I don't know.
Time to time to work on it.
Yeah.
There's very little that needsto be decided in the moment that
it's presented to you.
And so if you're unsure aboutthat timeline, then you can say,
(22:24):
when do I need to make thisdecision by?
Yeah.
Oh, Never.
I never like there's no.
Ah, you would prefer that I makeit right now, but if I never
make a decision, then nothingwill happen.
Okay, thank you for letting meknow.
This is working out wonderfullyfor me.
But there's so much pressurethat can be felt externally.
(22:48):
So you can be really confidentin your decision.
You can look at the information,you can be like, oh yeah, I
don't want to do that.
But then there are so manylittle nagging pieces of
pressure that can come in onyou.
And some of that can be pressurefrom yourself.
Just wanting your pregnancy tolook a certain way or to just,
you wanted to feel reallyconfident with your decision,
(23:10):
but really, maybe you're notquite sure yet.
And so you're kind of pushingyourself to make a decision or
to try to get your pregnancy orbirth, to look a certain way.
And I think, should we just saythe name knowledge that we're
putting often?
The pressure is us putting it onthe situation ourselves.
Yeah.
Wanting to get it perfectlyright.
(23:31):
Or wanting it to look a certainway.
I mean, I have a friend who waswalking through the idea of
getting antibiotics for her kidrecently, who was like, I'm not
going to tell anybody because Ifeel like a lot of shame for
doing this.
And I feel like it's the rightdecision, but I just don't want
to tell anybody because I feellike I'm going to be judged for
it.
And I was like, dude, that isthat's heavy stuff that we carry
(23:51):
as moms.
And even if you haven't had yourbaby birth, your baby yet.
Like these are parentingdecisions.
And I feel like you know,especially places, you know, on
Instagram, social media andthings, you can kind of put
somebody high on a pedestal andbe like, well, if I made.
Every decision that she made,then I can look, I have this
kind of.
Life or put this idea out intothe world.
(24:13):
And maybe you're not necessarilythinking that, but there.
Is something kind ofsubconsciously sitting there
too.
Idealism.
Idealism is just, oh, that'lljust kill.
That'll just kill autonomy.
Up and down and sideways.
Yeah, for sure.
So you can have pressure fromyourself, but you can also
potentially have pressure fromyour partner, people in your
(24:36):
family, especially for somereason, moms seem to be in that
space.
Often like moms, moms, orpartners.
Moms.
The grandmother.
Yeah.
Who has had the experience ofmotherhood?
Who wants to input?
Their experience onto yours.
And there's there's a lot ofnuance there, but potentially
(24:56):
not being on the same page asyour partner or as your mom or
mother-in-law or sister orwhatever.
You know, choosing somethingdifferent than they potentially
would, or just getting a lot ofpushback, a lot of talk about,
oh, the risk of that, or, oh,the safety or don't, you know,
like for.
For the baby's sake, make thisdecision.
Right.
And that can feel veryuncomfortable.
(25:20):
It can feel really like you'reon, unsought like not solid
ground, right.
Especially when it's with yourpartner and being able to really
sit down and chat about.
Most likely the things that youare researching, that he has
not.
A lot of that incongruity comesfrom, I'm not saying they're
ignorant, but just they do nothave the same desire.
(25:43):
And.
You know, most likely that liketime and effort is usually not
put into doing the research thatyou are doing for your decisions
in your pregnancy.
It's pretty common for that tobe the case that men.
Need a little bit morediscussion on that.
Absolutely.
And we get asked all the time,like, well, how do I get my
partner to, you know, fill inthe blank?
(26:05):
And I think that the wisest wayto go about not being on the
same page about things is tojust have continual conversation
about it.
If your partner is anything likemy husband.
He is like, why?
I just am not equipped to havethis conversation right now
because you clearly have thoughtabout this longer, done more
(26:27):
research.
Well, and, but something aboutthis, I don't feel comfortable.
I'm not there yet.
So then I'm like, yes, honey.
I know.
We'll get you there.
That's why I did all theresearch for.
There's very little that he,that he's like, I'm questioning
where you're at on this.
But the things that are is like,well, it's not, it's not
(26:49):
respectful or appropriate for meto move forward yet until we
have come to a decisiontogether.
And sometimes that just requiresa lot of talking and compromise
and unfortunately in pregnancyand birth, there's so many
decisions that have to be.
Made and ideally you guys makethose together because again,
it's parenting.
Yeah, for sure.
So you parenting together versuslike the input of the sister,
(27:13):
the mother-in-law, that kind ofstuff.
You will forever.
If that, if that's coming upnow, you'll probably forever be
dealing with some of thosepieces.
Sorry, as you parent andpotentially make different
decisions.
I feel like, especially withmoms, what it SI, you know,
grandmothers of the baby.
It tends to come down to, well,I made this decision for you and
(27:34):
I felt like I made the right oneand you making a different
decision makes me feel likeyou're doing this at me.
Like I did something wrong.
I don't think most of themactually potentially realize
that, but it's almost likeyou're making the decision at
them.
Which you most likely are not, Idon't know.
But I feel like that's a reallyimportant piece to kind of pull
(27:55):
out and to just remember thatit's you and your partner who
are parenting your baby, notanybody else.
Yeah.
And like that particularcircumstance that you just
brought it up.
That is that's grandma's work.
She needs to go work on that andsort that out.
That's not your job.
That's not your work.
So, yeah, that's a hard one to,that's a hard one to untangle
(28:16):
sometimes.
You could have a lot of providerpressure.
And this is what we hear mostwomen complaining about because
they are the person who feelslike they're holding an
authority over your care andover your process.
And so the way that providershave learned to apply pressure
to get.
Patients to consent, we call it.
(28:38):
We call it in, for beinginformed to.
Consent.
Yeah.
So not informed consent, butbeing informed in a way that
gets you to consent.
And usually just comes down towhat they are the most
comfortable with.
And they are absolutely allowedto have their preferences and
have their recommendations.
And they're allowed to say Moyou know, I dealt with a
situation last month and it wasa disaster.
(29:01):
So that's why I'm telling all myclients, they should probably
just do this other thing.
That is all valid and fine.
But at the end of the day, youare the decision maker and your
provider's preference or whatthey are comfortable with does
not.
Trump.
You are comfortable with or whatyour preference is.
And so that can be an especiallytricky one to untangle.
(29:23):
Yeah, for sure.
And we've, we've mentioned thisin other episodes too.
You may actually be the holderof more current research.
Then what your provider isactually utilizing and, you
know, in their kind of everydaypractice, because it takes so
long for some of these protocolsand policies to shift.
And so you can also feelconfident as you walk in with
(29:44):
your information that that.
You know, it's not necessarilythis power.
It shouldn't be this powerdivision piece.
But if you are feeling likeevery single thing you are
having to decline and feel somuch pressure and leave your
appointments crying, or you'relike exhausted before you even
(30:06):
get there, because you'reanticipating how that's going to
go.
Let that be a red flag for youthat you may not be in the right
place for you also.
And so just planting that seedof like, if this is the biggest
piece and it feels overwhelmingand exhausting.
There is another way or thereare other options.
(30:27):
Yeah.
Like changing providers.
Primarily that.
You may also feel like a lot ofpressure from society or your
community.
There's other people's voices.
Sometimes they are louder thanyour own or louder than, than
the other pieces that you'reconsidering.
And maybe we don't even like,know these people in real life
(30:50):
that we.
Imagine or a part of the societyvoice, but they just end up
being so loud and pregnancy isjust a natural place to be
turning more and more internaland inward.
And so if you find yourselfwanting less and less of other
people's opinions and otherpeople's information, and you've
(31:13):
running your stuff off of, youknow, basing it off of that that
would be a really normal,physiological reaction to just
being like, I'm just gonna, I'mgoing to tune in a little bit
more into.
Meet and what I need and what Iwant and how I'm processing this
and tune out and make.
(31:35):
Lower those other voices.
Yeah.
That's just, that's just goodfor life in general.
And for, as you enter into.
You know, again, you're makingparenting decisions now, but as
you continue to make them whenthe baby is here and the baby is
growing and all this otherpieces that it can, it's a good.
Kind of rhythm to get into nowand to get comfortable with,
because that will, it'll keeppopping up in different, weird
(31:57):
ways.
Surprising ways for yourselfprobably.
And so getting comfortabletuning out or turning down some
of that will be important.
And as you're making some ofthese decisions on declining
things, And you're feelingconfident about, okay, this is
the choice I want to make.
You may also be feeling like,well, I know I want to make this
(32:17):
decision, but also if I say noto this, there are just sort of
like some natural consequencesto that.
Right.
And because you are informedbecause you are making these
decisions thoughtfully, mostlikely you are aware that
there's no matter what, there'salways just going to be some
kind of.
Natural consequence to thedecisions that you are making.
(32:38):
So one of the things that we seeoften.
That we chat about in ourpractice.
Would be about GBS testing.
Right.
So say you're like, okay, I'veheard all about GVS testing.
I've researched it.
I'm just going to go ahead anddecline it because I just don't.
Find that information helpfulfor me at all.
And so in declining it, youactually, in like the medical
(33:01):
world would then be presumed tobe positive.
They'll look at you as if youhave it, because they don't know
if you do or not.
So then you're like, okay, welleven if I'm presumed positive,
okay, they're going to offer meantibiotics then, but I want to
decline the antibiotics.
But if I do that potentially,they might want to keep my baby
in the hospital for longer justto kind of monitor them, make
(33:23):
sure they're not havinginfection.
Right.
So all of a sudden you're seeinglike, oh man, my declining, this
one thing may have someconsequences, but it feels still
really important for me todecline.
But also I need to be aware ofwhat might be ahead of me if I
do.
And so.
So it's definitely a balancingact of you know, understanding
what you want, but alsobalancing that with what, you
(33:46):
know, may, you know, kind ofcome next.
And it's important to know whatsome of those things may
actually be.
That's part of that informedconsent piece.
And certainly it is much betterif you are able to determine
some of those things andrecognize what feels important
to you before even hiring yourprovider or deciding on a birth
(34:06):
location in general, becausesome of those pieces will
absolutely be impacted by thosevery foundational decisions.
And like, just knowing.
To which questions to ask andhow to say, is there anything in
your practice?
It's non-negotiable okay.
And so if I do decline that,what.
What would that look like forme?
(34:27):
Because I think women aresometimes feeling really
empowered to say no tosomething.
And then all of a sudden they'remet with an immediate like,
well, then I'm going to callCPS, or then you're kicked out
of my practice.
Or then you have these crazyconsequences of, you know,
medical holds and AMA and etcetera.
(34:48):
And so that's a huge part ofnavigating declining things is
understanding what that decisionmight lead to.
And I want women to know thatthey have rights that are not
usually.
Paramount in that discussion.
So when there are threats beingmade.
That go into like legalboundaries and stuff.
(35:10):
Usually the, the provider who'smaking those threats or just is
just trying to put more pressureon you to get you to consent to
the thing that they want.
And they don't recognize thatlike you do actually have rights
to take in all the informationand make the best decision.
So that might be a part of thatconversation with that provider
(35:31):
is.
Do you have a list of patientrights?
Does this hospital have a listof patient, right?
I'd like to read them so that Ican be.
Sure about what my abilities arein.
Being able to decline some ofthese things and also asking for
a patient advocate, especiallyin larger facilities, there is
usually someone on staff orsomeone on call that if if a
(35:52):
patient says I'm not getting.
I'm not getting the type of carethat I'm asking for here.
I need somebody to go between meand the.
Provider from an administrativeperspective and say like, what
do I, what do I actually have todo here?
And how, how can I navigate thiswithout the pressure, without
(36:13):
the coercion, without thosepieces.
And we've shared it here before,but there is a resource called
medical advocacy inside of the.
Shop online, beautiful onemidwifery.com Melissa, in the
show notes too, but it basicallygives you all of the tools for
informed consent.
It gives you lots of scripts fordeclining things so that you can
(36:35):
really like look and see whichone makes the most sense for
your particular situation.
But it also talks about patientrights.
It also talks about differentways in order to navigate.
Actually breaking through someof that coercion and that
pressure.
Yeah.
And that's so helpful.
I mean, certainly in pregnancyand it's unfortunate that we
even have to like, have thispart of the conversation.
(36:56):
Right.
But that's so helpful evenbeyond that.
Right.
Because a lot of the healthsystems are set up very
similarly.
And so to be able to have aresource in your back pocket
that can help you.
Navigate all the different typesof care and options and things
like that.
Honestly.
I'm just recalling a time whereI had to be in the hospital for
(37:18):
a bit, for with my son, my sonwas in the hospital and I had to
be the, I was with him forawhile.
And navigating those pieces.
I was like, I am so thankfulthat I have this wheelhouse of
information that I can pullfrom, because I know what I can
say.
I know what my rights are.
I know, like kind of thequestions to ask and the.
(37:40):
That I can say, no, thank you tothis person.
And like, can I have a new, youknow, whoever nurse or whatever
to be able to feel moreconfident in that.
So it goes so far beyond.
Just pregnancy to, oh,absolutely.
I had a good time talking withInstagram about this on line
this week, just saying like,okay, you guys let me know the
(38:00):
things, what are the actualpieces that make it difficult to
navigate this?
And one, one lady said that itwas hard for her to find quality
evidence to share with herprovider in order to bolster her
choice.
And I absolutely understand.
Welcome to At Home with Kellyand Tiffany, where naturally
minded women gather together aswe pursue simplicity and
confidence in healthalternatives, so we can show up
better in our busy lives andfeel more at home in our bodies.
Join your favorite home birthmidwife duo for conversation,
candor, and community.
You're at home with Kelly andTiffany.
(00:20):
I'm Kelly and I'm Tiffany.
I'm happy to be here.
It's a good place to be on thisMonday morning.
Whenever you're listening.
I like recording podcasts withyou.
Sometimes I have that feeling oflike, you know, when we are
about to record and I'm likehaving to leave my house.
I'm like, oh, I gotta leave myhouse.
But then when I get here, I'malways like, this is so good.
(00:43):
We like start talking.
I'm like, I'm just talking withmy friend about some things that
I care about.
I think like in a season thatwe're in right now, which is.
Creating a lot of content for alot of projects that we're
working on.
That has put the podcast intoperspective to make the podcast
just looked like fun.
Yeah, we get to do we just getto like sit and chat while our
(01:06):
kids play and we're like, sorry,we have to go spend time
together and have conversations.
Yeah.
And like I like we've, we've,we've gone so many directions
with the podcast over the years,and I agree with you that,
right, right now in this space,I am so grateful that we get to
do it.
Me too.
I'm excited to talk about whatwe're talking about today too,
because the idea of declining.
(01:28):
Things in your pregnancy or inanywhere in your health, right?
It sounds like, oh, you just sayno, right.
Or you just decline it.
And there's so much.
More.
More potentially to just, justsaying no.
I should tell my fifth gradeself when I took my dear class.
Did you have to take that Derek?
Of course they did.
There's not evidence-basedeither.
(01:49):
No.
So that didn't work.
Just say no.
So here we are.
Talking about why there's morenuance than dare.
I do love when the, like thet-shirts resurface from thrift
stores and stuff.
Cause.
So I call on it.
Oh yeah.
I, this is majorly off topic.
(02:12):
I remember we had to make skits.
I forget.
Even what grade you teach fifthgrade, maybe, maybe the younger,
they have to take that class ormaybe you do it a few times.
I kind of forget, but we had tomake a skit about like the
dangers of junk driving orsomething.
We didn't, we were too young toeven know really what like being
drunk actually meant orwhatever.
Anyway, we were like making theskit and it's all just.
(02:34):
Looking back on it.
And this is the feedback we got.
It was all just like thepositives of these like friends
getting drunk together.
And he was like, well, youdidn't really like, bring the
story around of like the nights.
We were like, oh, I don't know.
I don't even know what you'retalking about.
Ooh.
Yeah.
Or like it's just regurgitated.
Stuff.
Yes.
Wait.
Johnny know drinking is bad.
(02:55):
I made a, I made a poster with abow.
I drew a bottle on it with likethe circle and a line through
it.
And on the bottle, this is howlittle I, I knew at the time I
wrote marijuana.
Good job.
I don't drink that bottle of.
Ana.
And I remember my, my parentslooking at it and being like,
I'm not going to tell her isfine.
(03:16):
It was a bottle of marijuana.
Don't do that.
Just say no.
Oh, my gosh.
Okay.
Do you remember that commercial?
We're getting off track here.
Do you remember that?
this is your brain.
This is your brain on drugs.
It's like an egg being crafted.
Yes.
Here's your brain.
It's all just perfect and fine.
(03:37):
But this is your brain lungdrugs.
We're going to smash it with afriend pan.
It's going to get all scrambledup.
I understand the message behindit.
Don't do drugs.
Yes.
But.
The, we, we missed a step thereand it actually being effective.
So I told my kids a couple ofyears ago, I don't know how it
(03:57):
ended up coming up, but youknow, in our families, we just
talk about.
A lot of uncomfortable things.
I would let them know people dodrugs because it feels good.
Yeah.
Initially, it seems like a greatchoice.
It feels good.
It takes away.
Lots of uncomfortable feelings,but it's a slippery slope.
(04:18):
Well, I talked to my kids thatway about sex.
Yeah.
Like it.
You don't have to shy away fromsome of the truth of situations.
People do this because it feelsgood.
Please don't get pregnant whenyou're a teenager.
That would have a lot of.
Difficult consequences for yourlife.
But the reason people are doingit is because it feels good.
(04:38):
Yeah.
Versus like, I don't know whywe're just telling people jugs
or bad jugs or adjunct or bad.
They have devastatingconsequences.
But.
You don't just like it.
I don't know, cave to the peerpressure.
And then right.
There's there's just the pieceof context around all of the
(04:59):
pieces of this.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Which is very similar to makingdecisions in.
Your pregnancy and labor.
This is your pregnancy.
This is your pregnancy on forcedinterventions.
Okay, there we go.
It's all scrambled up.
But before we jump into that, Ihave an update on the skincare
(05:21):
dilemma.
Great that I was having with mygirls.
A few months ago, and it has allkind of come to a head this week
and I thought let's share it onthe podcast because I had a
couple moms reach out to me andgo, thank you so much for.
Saying that you're having such ahard time with this piece
because we are too, we don'trent to do.
And then I was talking toanother mom last night and she
(05:41):
was like, have you ever thought,just like like don't, don't
restrict them at all.
And I was like, yeah, I haveactually, but that's ah, I
dunno.
I don't know.
There's something about that.
That's like, so I can see thevalue and not putting rules on
whatever, but like, as.
And not creating a complex.
Yes, that's important.
(06:01):
Yes.
But.
Unreal.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
So anyways, what we decided todo since then was I had to have
a serious talk with my kids andsay, we, I know I've been a
little bit wishy washy on thisso far, I'm making a clear
stance on.
This is not what we're going todo.
Four.
You know, The, these types ofproducts that are going to be in
(06:24):
my home.
And so I just want you girls toknow I'm gonna work really hard
to help you to find the thingsthat you want that are safe and
okay.
But from now on, we're not goingto do any of this.
And my kids are like, so do wehave to throw away all of our
things that are not okay?
And I'm like, no, but just as wemove forward with what we're
buying, let's be intentionalabout it.
(06:44):
And then one of my children wasextremely upset with that.
Like like mourning the loss ofwhat this could potentially.
I mean for her identity, herfuture, her.
Good.
Everything that could possiblygo wrong happened in this
conversation.
And.
(07:04):
Like a, like a great parent.
We pause the conversation andrevisited it the next day and
not kids side.
Would you be willing tocompromise?
And I said, tell me what thiscompromised.
It looks like, and we talk tothat a little bit and I'm like,
I really want to work with youon this because it's so
important.
(07:25):
And I feel strongly in, you feelstrongly and you feel strongly
for different reasons, but.
So the compromise was you canbuy one more terrible thing.
Okay.
And I felt like I could give it.
Yeah, because the overallpicture was we're working on
this other, we're going thisother direction together.
(07:46):
And honestly, at the end of theday, that's like, Even if there
are using this.
Terrible thing for a whilelonger, the decrease in toxic
burden on the body is continuingto decrease.
As you know, as those otheritems are falling off or being
emptied, new things are beingbrought in that kind of thing.
And so like, there's, there's abalance there.
(08:07):
Yes.
And I want to.
I don't want to look.
Or participate in the situationand like a Dick Tarion way.
Right.
Like, I want to want to be like,let's, let's this goal that I
have.
Let's, there's multiple ways toit.
Let's figure out how to getthere.
And as a kid is getting older,too.
I'm envisioning which kid thisis.
(08:28):
Yeah.
As they're getting older andnavigating a bit more, you know,
personal autonomy within thesafety.
Of the home.
That's a good thing to like, bewilling to listen to.
Yes.
Yeah.
And to me it didn't, it wasn'tjust about the skincare and
makeup stuff.
It was like, this is a chance.
(08:48):
To establish a way that we workthrough lots of conflict that
has got to be on the horizon.
As that piece plays out, thatautonomous I'm growing up.
I want my own independence.
I don't want my mom telling mewhat lotion I can use.
So.
And she was saving up for thisone special, really bad thing.
That was a big part of it.
(09:09):
Dream attached to who she couldbecome if this bad thing.
Great.
And.
So I, there was, and then therewas a multi-step process to
getting this thing.
And we, we got it and it wasn'tquite right.
And we returned it and we gotanother one and we paid for
(09:29):
shipping that we couldn't getrefunded.
And like, there are many, manylessons were learned in
acquiring this one last badthing.
And then right around the timethat we started using that.
Consistently.
Oh, no.
Now there's some dermatologicalreactions.
Okay.
(09:50):
Natural consequences.
And I, as soon as it startedhappening, I knew it.
And I didn't say a dang thing.
I'm proud of you because I'mlike, you need to have the few
need to experience the fullnessof this.
Yes, absolutely.
Choice.
And so it wasn't until this weekthat she came to me and she was
like, I need help.
Oh, We need help managing this.
(10:14):
And I'm like, yeah.
Okay.
Let's see, what are we going todo about that?
And so I'm hoping that.
That experience, not that youever want, like bad things to
happen to your kids, or younever want them to like, have to
suffer because of theirconsequences, but in a.
Controlled safe.
(10:35):
Right.
I'm right here kind of way, likewalking out this thing.
Yeah.
You know, which, you know, formany, many children there would
never, they.
There would never be a visible.
Anything to their choices.
Yes.
That's another reason why I feellike my kids in particular need
to be extra careful about thisstuff, because we are just more
(10:59):
something.
Our skin is absolutely insane.
Yeah.
So so that's where we are.
We are like, we are like tryingto heal and recover from.
This big thing.
This is a great, this is a greatfollow-up and I feel like
there's so many pieces of likehow, I mean, even as adults,
(11:19):
right?
Idolizing certain things.
And then realizing, oh, that'snot.
Obviously like where myfulfillment is going to come
from, or like, that's not goingto fill this one hole that I
have, that I, that I want.
And so that's a good lesson tobe walking through of like, I
don't know, there's certainthings, certain kids, I mean,
every kid, it may not beskincare, but it may be
(11:41):
something else that like turnsinto an idol of some kind.
And you're like, and I guessthat can go the other way, if
you're so hung up on.
I don't know.
What exact ingredients that youcan not have, whatever.
Yes exactly.
But this is like such a good,safe way to walk through.
Some of it wouldn't want, youknow, skincare issues.
That's like a bummer, especiallythat age.
(12:03):
It just doesn't feel good.
But That's a good naturalconsequence and helpful to like
walk through that.
Yeah, totally.
Okay.
And so one of the funny little,like pieces of this is.
That I told my kids.
I'm not taking you to Sephoraand Ulta anymore, just to walk
around and look at all thethings you can't have.
It just don't see the value inthat coughing the whole way.
Yeah.
And the last time I went inthere, I was like, no, we just
(12:24):
can't do this.
It's.
Look at for me I'm I have to bethere with you.
Breathing that air.
And so I told them there'snothing here that you can have
anyways, besides like hairclips.
So.
There's just no point in uswalking around, looking at it
and testing it and stuff.
However, as I was researchingskin barrier repair and.
(12:47):
Certain ingredients that you dowant in some of these products,
when you're trying to work onthat.
I found.
Great company that has reallygood EWG ratings.
And everyone says, don't buythis on Amazon because there's
too many, there's too muchinconsistency.
It's one of those products thatthey're like, this isn't the
real thing.
(13:08):
So like, don't buy it on here.
Because when I go to look, wherecan you buy news?
Ulta is one of the realtors.
Or.
Real.
Retailers.
They're realtors also.
One of those places has beautycounter.
Yes.
Ulta.
(13:28):
Okay.
Those are maybe two things.
So I was like, oh gosh, ofcourse, of course I need to like
go to my kids now and say, I amsorry.
Actually, there are things thatyou can have.
I actually need to go thereright now and pick this stuff up
for you.
Oh, that's interesting.
But, yeah.
So I learned that I've learnedthat that for myself, We went on
(13:49):
a journey in our home.
My child learned a lot aboutlots of those things, and we'll
see where this takes us, but itdidn't inspire me to.
Get our low talks, summer list,spiffed up and updated.
And I did add these products tothat list.
(14:11):
So even though if you guys willlook I think it's called, I
think it's called cocoa kind.
Is the brand.
If you look on our low toxsummer list, which I'll link in
the show notes, you'll see inthose reviews, people say, don't
get it on the Amazon, butanyways, you can see the actual
product there and go find it atyour local old.
And again, they had great, greatreadings on these really cute.
(14:34):
Skincare thing was that that's,that seems to be a part of it is
just having.
Aesthetically pleasing product.
Products.
But these products will actuallyhelp to.
Fortify your skin barrier.
I love it.
Woo.
I love it very much.
We've we've been on an emotionalrollercoaster so far in this
episode.
Oh, we didn't even get to the,the stuff about declining, which
(14:57):
is sure to be emotional.
Yep.
Okay.
So you guys hear us on thispodcast.
You follow us on Instagram andwe're just constantly trying to
shop from the rooftops.
Like you can decline, you candecline, you can decline.
There's there's nothing you canto decline.
But it is easier said than done.
And so I thought we would spendan episode just kind of getting
(15:17):
into the nuances of that andtalk about informed consent
informed declination and helpwomen navigate it a little bit
more practically.
In everyday life.
Yeah.
It's, it's one thing to say.
No.
In your mind, or like when I goin.
I know that these things aregoing to be offered and I'm
(15:38):
going to say no, or you're inthe appointment and things are
offered potentially in a waythat makes you feel like maybe I
shouldn't say yes, but Iactually don't know yet.
Right.
Or being able to kind of sortthrough those pieces.
And like the actual conversationof declining something.
Right.
And so I feel like taking a stepback and understanding.
Some of the kind of nuances of.
(16:01):
Making decisions.
Of voicing your own opinion isreally, really important.
I feel like as, as you'rewalking through any of these
things, being able to take amoment to be intentional, to
even ask yourself, Like saysomething is offered to you,
right?
Or, you know, something will be,or you're looking and you're
(16:22):
just being very proactive onwhat's going on in this
trimester for you.
What is normal to be you know,recommended, which has been a
cool part of what we're doing inour childbirth education class
of this, like kind of beingaware of what will kind of be
coming up this trimester to beable to give some context to
that, but even asking yourself,like, is this something that I
want, right.
(16:43):
Is this lab something I want todo?
Is that information from theultrasound, something I want is.
Is that vaginal exam.
Is that something that I dowant, like, what are, what is
your motive for decliningsomething?
Is it because you saw somebodyon Instagram say don't drink
that glute Cola drink, but whatif you actually want to write.
(17:05):
And so what if that feels likethe right decision, but you're
trying to navigate saying no,because you feel like you
should, or the other way around,right there.
Six, so many little, littlepieces there, but I feel like
that is a.
Important aspect of figuring outwhat it is you actually want.
And being able to move forward.
From there.
(17:25):
Yeah.
And I think like it, we can fallinto a ditch on one side of the
road.
That's, I'm going to just doeverything that I'm told and we
could fall into a ditch on theother side of the road.
That is I'm, I'm overwhelmed.
I think everyone's out to getme.
I'm just going to declineeverything and then I'll avoid
all of that potential conflict.
And so you have to ask yourselflike, Are you actually
(17:46):
declining?
Are you really saying like, I donot want this.
I think that a little bit ofbirth vision work can kind of
help in this area too, likewomen who are willing to sit and
do the work of like, what doesthis ideal experience look like
for me?
Does that include, is that goingto, am I going to need to
decline a bunch of things inorder to make that happen?
Maybe?
(18:06):
Yeah.
But potentially you would bemore willing to go to the links
in which you need to foryourself once, you know, this is
what this experience is going tolook and feel and be remembered
by.
Yeah, absolutely.
And so you've heard us mentionthis before.
There's sort of this acronymthat you can walk through in
your own head as you are disckind of you know being offered
(18:30):
things.
What are the benefits, right?
This brain idea.
What are the benefits?
What the are being risks.
What is that?
A alternatives or do you haveother options?
I, your instincts, what is yourgut telling you?
And like, what if you just donothing?
What if you just kind of likekeep going the road that you're
going down and don't do a singlething.
And so that's like a reallyimportant piece of making a
(18:52):
truly informed choice andfeeling confident that when you
walk in to say, no, you're likemy no is going to be my no, and
I know why.
And that is really powerful.
I feel like because then youactually have solid grounding to
stand on.
Absolutely.
I would say one of the biggestchallenges in declining things
for women is just actually theconfrontation.
(19:15):
The actual saying no part.
I think it's really easy for usto fall into people.
Pleasing habits.
It's really easy for us to justavoid confrontation and just be
peacekeepers, but there are lotsof ways to say no.
And I usually recommend womenwho are struggling with it.
Like me to practice how they'regoing to decline and just say
(19:38):
out loud to yourself, like inthe mirror that morning.
You are smart.
Beautiful.
But exactly what you're going tosay.
And there's lots of ways to sayno, you can say no.
Thank you.
I'm not going to do that rightnow.
I heard your recommendation, butI am still declining.
(19:59):
I appreciate the information,but we're still undecided.
I won't be doing that.
I think saying I won't be doingthat.
It's so much more effective thansaying no thank you.
Or like, oh no.
Cause then you gonna say like,oh, I have actually taken in all
the information.
I did a little bit of myresearch already and I've come
(20:20):
to the conclusion that I won'tbe doing that.
You can also say I do notconsent.
That's really strong, strongwords, but in a birth
environment where somebody iscoming at the umbilical cord
with scissors, you might have tosay, you don't have my consent
to cut the cord.
And he, and they hear that.
And the room hears that.
(20:40):
And especially the idea ofconsent in general is.
W having a moment.
It is like in EV as it should,right.
Is having like a lot of peopleare aware of what that really
means.
And the, and the gravity of it.
So saying that.
Usually holds quite a bit ofweight, especially for people in
the medical.
(21:01):
Community.
But yes, I completely agree.
I was the people pleasingperson.
I mean, I'm like recovering, Isuppose.
But for sure, in my firstpregnancy, I remember feeling
very uncomfortable being like,oh, I read this thing, but
actually the way that you'redescribing it maybe I do that in
like just kind of questioningand not wanting to kind of push
(21:22):
the envelope.
So it's a, it's a real thing ofin your head wanting to say no,
but then the reality of actuallygetting those words out when
your heart is racing or you'refeeling really uncomfortable.
Or now you're questioningeverything because potentially
you're feeling.
I don't know, belittled or as ifyou don't.
As if you don't know as muchabout that specific thing.
(21:42):
You can trust your trust, yourinstinct on that too.
And if you are in that space,You don't actually have to make
a decision in the moment or ifyou're uncomfortable.
With the firmness of thatdecision, depending on what it
is right.
To just kind of give yourself.
A bit more time too, and justkeep pushing it off.
(22:02):
If you have to that, you'restill deciding that you're
unsure that you need to do moreresearch, those types of things
so that If you're still workingon that piece, that gives you a
little bit more.
I don't know.
Time to time to work on it.
Yeah.
There's very little that needsto be decided in the moment that
it's presented to you.
And so if you're unsure aboutthat timeline, then you can say,
(22:24):
when do I need to make thisdecision by?
Yeah.
Oh, Never.
I never like there's no.
Ah, you would prefer that I makeit right now, but if I never
make a decision, then nothingwill happen.
Okay, thank you for letting meknow.
This is working out wonderfullyfor me.
But there's so much pressurethat can be felt externally.
(22:48):
So you can be really confidentin your decision.
You can look at the information,you can be like, oh yeah, I
don't want to do that.
But then there are so manylittle nagging pieces of
pressure that can come in onyou.
And some of that can be pressurefrom yourself.
Just wanting your pregnancy tolook a certain way or to just,
you wanted to feel reallyconfident with your decision,
(23:10):
but really, maybe you're notquite sure yet.
And so you're kind of pushingyourself to make a decision or
to try to get your pregnancy orbirth, to look a certain way.
And I think, should we just saythe name knowledge that we're
putting often?
The pressure is us putting it onthe situation ourselves.
Yeah.
Wanting to get it perfectlyright.
(23:31):
Or wanting it to look a certainway.
I mean, I have a friend who waswalking through the idea of
getting antibiotics for her kidrecently, who was like, I'm not
going to tell anybody because Ifeel like a lot of shame for
doing this.
And I feel like it's the rightdecision, but I just don't want
to tell anybody because I feellike I'm going to be judged for
it.
And I was like, dude, that isthat's heavy stuff that we carry
(23:51):
as moms.
And even if you haven't had yourbaby birth, your baby yet.
Like these are parentingdecisions.
And I feel like you know,especially places, you know, on
Instagram, social media andthings, you can kind of put
somebody high on a pedestal andbe like, well, if I made.
Every decision that she made,then I can look, I have this
kind of.
Life or put this idea out intothe world.
(24:13):
And maybe you're not necessarilythinking that, but there.
Is something kind ofsubconsciously sitting there
too.
Idealism.
Idealism is just, oh, that'lljust kill.
That'll just kill autonomy.
Up and down and sideways.
Yeah, for sure.
So you can have pressure fromyourself, but you can also
potentially have pressure fromyour partner, people in your
(24:36):
family, especially for somereason, moms seem to be in that
space.
Often like moms, moms, orpartners.
Moms.
The grandmother.
Yeah.
Who has had the experience ofmotherhood?
Who wants to input?
Their experience onto yours.
And there's there's a lot ofnuance there, but potentially
(24:56):
not being on the same page asyour partner or as your mom or
mother-in-law or sister orwhatever.
You know, choosing somethingdifferent than they potentially
would, or just getting a lot ofpushback, a lot of talk about,
oh, the risk of that, or, oh,the safety or don't, you know,
like for.
For the baby's sake, make thisdecision.
Right.
And that can feel veryuncomfortable.
(25:20):
It can feel really like you'reon, unsought like not solid
ground, right.
Especially when it's with yourpartner and being able to really
sit down and chat about.
Most likely the things that youare researching, that he has
not.
A lot of that incongruity comesfrom, I'm not saying they're
ignorant, but just they do nothave the same desire.
(25:43):
And.
You know, most likely that liketime and effort is usually not
put into doing the research thatyou are doing for your decisions
in your pregnancy.
It's pretty common for that tobe the case that men.
Need a little bit morediscussion on that.
Absolutely.
And we get asked all the time,like, well, how do I get my
partner to, you know, fill inthe blank?
(26:05):
And I think that the wisest wayto go about not being on the
same page about things is tojust have continual conversation
about it.
If your partner is anything likemy husband.
He is like, why?
I just am not equipped to havethis conversation right now
because you clearly have thoughtabout this longer, done more
(26:27):
research.
Well, and, but something aboutthis, I don't feel comfortable.
I'm not there yet.
So then I'm like, yes, honey.
I know.
We'll get you there.
That's why I did all theresearch for.
There's very little that he,that he's like, I'm questioning
where you're at on this.
But the things that are is like,well, it's not, it's not
(26:49):
respectful or appropriate for meto move forward yet until we
have come to a decisiontogether.
And sometimes that just requiresa lot of talking and compromise
and unfortunately in pregnancyand birth, there's so many
decisions that have to be.
Made and ideally you guys makethose together because again,
it's parenting.
Yeah, for sure.
So you parenting together versuslike the input of the sister,
(27:13):
the mother-in-law, that kind ofstuff.
You will forever.
If that, if that's coming upnow, you'll probably forever be
dealing with some of thosepieces.
Sorry, as you parent andpotentially make different
decisions.
I feel like, especially withmoms, what it SI, you know,
grandmothers of the baby.
It tends to come down to, well,I made this decision for you and
(27:34):
I felt like I made the right oneand you making a different
decision makes me feel likeyou're doing this at me.
Like I did something wrong.
I don't think most of themactually potentially realize
that, but it's almost likeyou're making the decision at
them.
Which you most likely are not, Idon't know.
But I feel like that's a reallyimportant piece to kind of pull
(27:55):
out and to just remember thatit's you and your partner who
are parenting your baby, notanybody else.
Yeah.
And like that particularcircumstance that you just
brought it up.
That is that's grandma's work.
She needs to go work on that andsort that out.
That's not your job.
That's not your work.
So, yeah, that's a hard one to,that's a hard one to untangle
(28:16):
sometimes.
You could have a lot of providerpressure.
And this is what we hear mostwomen complaining about because
they are the person who feelslike they're holding an
authority over your care andover your process.
And so the way that providershave learned to apply pressure
to get.
Patients to consent, we call it.
(28:38):
We call it in, for beinginformed to.
Consent.
Yeah.
So not informed consent, butbeing informed in a way that
gets you to consent.
And usually just comes down towhat they are the most
comfortable with.
And they are absolutely allowedto have their preferences and
have their recommendations.
And they're allowed to say Moyou know, I dealt with a
situation last month and it wasa disaster.
(29:01):
So that's why I'm telling all myclients, they should probably
just do this other thing.
That is all valid and fine.
But at the end of the day, youare the decision maker and your
provider's preference or whatthey are comfortable with does
not.
Trump.
You are comfortable with or whatyour preference is.
And so that can be an especiallytricky one to untangle.
(29:23):
Yeah, for sure.
And we've, we've mentioned thisin other episodes too.
You may actually be the holderof more current research.
Then what your provider isactually utilizing and, you
know, in their kind of everydaypractice, because it takes so
long for some of these protocolsand policies to shift.
And so you can also feelconfident as you walk in with
(29:44):
your information that that.
You know, it's not necessarilythis power.
It shouldn't be this powerdivision piece.
But if you are feeling likeevery single thing you are
having to decline and feel somuch pressure and leave your
appointments crying, or you'relike exhausted before you even
(30:06):
get there, because you'reanticipating how that's going to
go.
Let that be a red flag for youthat you may not be in the right
place for you also.
And so just planting that seedof like, if this is the biggest
piece and it feels overwhelmingand exhausting.
There is another way or thereare other options.
(30:27):
Yeah.
Like changing providers.
Primarily that.
You may also feel like a lot ofpressure from society or your
community.
There's other people's voices.
Sometimes they are louder thanyour own or louder than, than
the other pieces that you'reconsidering.
And maybe we don't even like,know these people in real life
(30:50):
that we.
Imagine or a part of the societyvoice, but they just end up
being so loud and pregnancy isjust a natural place to be
turning more and more internaland inward.
And so if you find yourselfwanting less and less of other
people's opinions and otherpeople's information, and you've
(31:13):
running your stuff off of, youknow, basing it off of that that
would be a really normal,physiological reaction to just
being like, I'm just gonna, I'mgoing to tune in a little bit
more into.
Meet and what I need and what Iwant and how I'm processing this
and tune out and make.
(31:35):
Lower those other voices.
Yeah.
That's just, that's just goodfor life in general.
And for, as you enter into.
You know, again, you're makingparenting decisions now, but as
you continue to make them whenthe baby is here and the baby is
growing and all this otherpieces that it can, it's a good.
Kind of rhythm to get into nowand to get comfortable with,
because that will, it'll keeppopping up in different, weird
(31:57):
ways.
Surprising ways for yourselfprobably.
And so getting comfortabletuning out or turning down some
of that will be important.
And as you're making some ofthese decisions on declining
things, And you're feelingconfident about, okay, this is
the choice I want to make.
You may also be feeling like,well, I know I want to make this
(32:17):
decision, but also if I say noto this, there are just sort of
like some natural consequencesto that.
Right.
And because you are informedbecause you are making these
decisions thoughtfully, mostlikely you are aware that
there's no matter what, there'salways just going to be some
kind of.
Natural consequence to thedecisions that you are making.
(32:38):
So one of the things that we seeoften.
That we chat about in ourpractice.
Would be about GBS testing.
Right.
So say you're like, okay, I'veheard all about GVS testing.
I've researched it.
I'm just going to go ahead anddecline it because I just don't.
Find that information helpfulfor me at all.
And so in declining it, youactually, in like the medical
(33:01):
world would then be presumed tobe positive.
They'll look at you as if youhave it, because they don't know
if you do or not.
So then you're like, okay, welleven if I'm presumed positive,
okay, they're going to offer meantibiotics then, but I want to
decline the antibiotics.
But if I do that potentially,they might want to keep my baby
in the hospital for longer justto kind of monitor them, make
(33:23):
sure they're not havinginfection.
Right.
So all of a sudden you're seeinglike, oh man, my declining, this
one thing may have someconsequences, but it feels still
really important for me todecline.
But also I need to be aware ofwhat might be ahead of me if I
do.
And so.
So it's definitely a balancingact of you know, understanding
what you want, but alsobalancing that with what, you
(33:46):
know, may, you know, kind ofcome next.
And it's important to know whatsome of those things may
actually be.
That's part of that informedconsent piece.
And certainly it is much betterif you are able to determine
some of those things andrecognize what feels important
to you before even hiring yourprovider or deciding on a birth
(34:06):
location in general, becausesome of those pieces will
absolutely be impacted by thosevery foundational decisions.
And like, just knowing.
To which questions to ask andhow to say, is there anything in
your practice?
It's non-negotiable okay.
And so if I do decline that,what.
What would that look like forme?
(34:27):
Because I think women aresometimes feeling really
empowered to say no tosomething.
And then all of a sudden they'remet with an immediate like,
well, then I'm going to callCPS, or then you're kicked out
of my practice.
Or then you have these crazyconsequences of, you know,
medical holds and AMA and etcetera.
(34:48):
And so that's a huge part ofnavigating declining things is
understanding what that decisionmight lead to.
And I want women to know thatthey have rights that are not
usually.
Paramount in that discussion.
So when there are threats beingmade.
That go into like legalboundaries and stuff.
(35:10):
Usually the, the provider who'smaking those threats or just is
just trying to put more pressureon you to get you to consent to
the thing that they want.
And they don't recognize thatlike you do actually have rights
to take in all the informationand make the best decision.
So that might be a part of thatconversation with that provider
(35:31):
is.
Do you have a list of patientrights?
Does this hospital have a listof patient, right?
I'd like to read them so that Ican be.
Sure about what my abilities arein.
Being able to decline some ofthese things and also asking for
a patient advocate, especiallyin larger facilities, there is
usually someone on staff orsomeone on call that if if a
(35:52):
patient says I'm not getting.
I'm not getting the type of carethat I'm asking for here.
I need somebody to go between meand the.
Provider from an administrativeperspective and say like, what
do I, what do I actually have todo here?
And how, how can I navigate thiswithout the pressure, without
(36:13):
the coercion, without thosepieces.
And we've shared it here before,but there is a resource called
medical advocacy inside of the.
Shop online, beautiful onemidwifery.com Melissa, in the
show notes too, but it basicallygives you all of the tools for
informed consent.
It gives you lots of scripts fordeclining things so that you can
(36:35):
really like look and see whichone makes the most sense for
your particular situation.
But it also talks about patientrights.
It also talks about differentways in order to navigate.
Actually breaking through someof that coercion and that
pressure.
Yeah.
And that's so helpful.
I mean, certainly in pregnancyand it's unfortunate that we
even have to like, have thispart of the conversation.
(36:56):
Right.
But that's so helpful evenbeyond that.
Right.
Because a lot of the healthsystems are set up very
similarly.
And so to be able to have aresource in your back pocket
that can help you.
Navigate all the different typesof care and options and things
like that.
Honestly.
I'm just recalling a time whereI had to be in the hospital for
(37:18):
a bit, for with my son, my sonwas in the hospital and I had to
be the, I was with him forawhile.
And navigating those pieces.
I was like, I am so thankfulthat I have this wheelhouse of
information that I can pullfrom, because I know what I can
say.
I know what my rights are.
I know, like kind of thequestions to ask and the.
(37:40):
That I can say, no, thank you tothis person.
And like, can I have a new, youknow, whoever nurse or whatever
to be able to feel moreconfident in that.
So it goes so far beyond.
Just pregnancy to, oh,absolutely.
I had a good time talking withInstagram about this on line
this week, just saying like,okay, you guys let me know the
(38:00):
things, what are the actualpieces that make it difficult to
navigate this?
And one, one lady said that itwas hard for her to find quality
evidence to share with herprovider in order to bolster her
choice.
And I absolutely understand.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.