Are We on the Verge of a Manhood Revolution? with Dr Zac Seidler

As Global Director of Men's Health Research at Movember, Dr Zac Seidler calls male identity and mental health 'the issue of our times'. He's seen the problems - but he also has a vision for the solution. 

In this conversation, Zac covers:

• Why he has stopped using the term "Masculinity" and the powerful, alternative word he prefers to frame the conversation around men’s identity.
• His expert analysis of the "manosphere" and what young men are truly seeking and needing right now
• The positive Ideas and examples that can help guide the way for men
• How he feels about becoming a father to a boy of his own

Find out more about Dr Zac and his work here

Find out more about Movember here

Donate to Osher's Movember effort here

 

 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

S1 (00:01):
You know, this gender reckoning of like, modern and traditional
ideologies clashing is frightening. And so everyone returns to what
they know or what they've seen, as if that was
always in our best interests. It wasn't. There has to
be a 21st century where we say the modern man

(00:24):
looks different, feels different, acts different, and still feels like
a man, still looks like a man, and is is
able to to show up in whatever way he sees fit.

S2 (00:40):
G'day. Thanks for listening to the show. This is better
than yesterday. Useful tools and useful conversations helping to make
your day to day. But then yesterday. Every week since 2013.
My name is Joshua Ginsberg. Thank you so much for
being here. Question off the top here. How should men be?
How should men be? How should they be for the
ones that they love, for their communities, for themselves. What

(01:03):
gets in the way of men being the way that
we hope they can be? What can help them be
that way? We know what we don't want them to be,
but what examples, or maybe what ideas can we point
to to say, hey, that over there. The big questions,
no question. But my guest today has, I don't know,

(01:26):
made a career out of researching the answers. My guest
today is Doctor Zac Seidler. He's the global director of
men's health research at Movember. He's a clinical psychologist and researcher,
associate professor at Origin Australia Centre of Excellence in Youth
Mental Health. And as you'll hear, Doctor Zac Seidler is
an expectant dad to a young son of his own

(01:50):
weeks away. In this conversation, Zac explains a few things
why he has. He prefers not to use the word masculinity,
and has a different way that we might be able
to refer to that idea. His thoughts on the manosphere.
What young men really need right now, and so much more.
And as a father to be, it is kind of

(02:13):
fascinating when everything we've been discussing turns around to him
and the next weeks, months and 18 years of his life.
It's a great conversation. We'll get to it right after this.
Thanks for listening to the show. Let's get to Doctor

(02:34):
Zac Seidler, who on the day we met had a
very strong opening opening couple of overs for Movember. I
think it was the seventh, I think, when we met. Uh,
I'm 51. I'm still only producing bum fluff. And yet
here I am, sitting across the table from this man
with a job. He was working hard. That being said,
even if you don't throw some money my way, I'll
put the link in the show notes. Find someone you

(02:55):
know that is trying to grow and give them some
money for Movember, because it is the one charity that
I support. They are incredible work, incredible work. And Doctor
Zeidler is a incredible example of the work that they do.
Enjoy this conversation. Happy Movember! It's good to see you, Zach.

S1 (03:15):
You too man.

S2 (03:16):
How are things with you?

S1 (03:17):
Things have been pretty crazy. I'm about to have a baby.

S2 (03:20):
How? Like.

S1 (03:21):
Like in eight weeks. Oh, gosh. Yeah, he's coming in fresh.
He's currently called Zeus, but I don't think that's going
to last, so that's pretty hectic. And it's not at
all a serious pressure to put on a tiny child
to be the god of gods. I see no problem. So,
you know, lean in.

S2 (03:38):
Have you ever been to Mexico? Do you know how
many people called Jesus there? Have you ever.

S1 (03:42):
Just lean in, mate?

S2 (03:44):
Mohammed is the most common name ever, right? So people
have no problem naming their children after, you know, very
revered people.

S1 (03:51):
Exactly.

S2 (03:52):
It's fine.

S1 (03:53):
At least Lewis has got a dope beard.

S2 (03:55):
So are. And lightning bolts.

S1 (03:57):
And lightning bolts. Yeah, he's currently lightning bolting my wife every.

S2 (04:02):
Oh, man.

S1 (04:03):
Taking her all over the shop.

S2 (04:05):
Uh, this is your first baby? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So
I can fill you in. I did another podcast with
Charlie Clawson called Dad Pod, which was all about this,
but I'll tell you, like, straight up take snacks. You
could be there for a lot longer than you think
you are. Yeah. Absolutely, positively. Do not yawn. No. Don't yawn. Nope.

S1 (04:27):
Wow.

S2 (04:27):
Get all those boss coffee cans you can.

S1 (04:29):
Yeah.

S2 (04:30):
Don't yawn.

S1 (04:30):
Just like toothpicks in the eyeballs.

S2 (04:32):
If she sees you, she's like, what? No. Like she
is going. She is doing the max one rep. Max.

S1 (04:41):
Yeah.

S2 (04:41):
Of all it is.

S1 (04:44):
Yeah. The left.

S2 (04:45):
It is the most profoundly incredible thing you've ever witnessed.

S1 (04:50):
It is.

S2 (04:50):
Unbelievable. No wonder you know patriarchy exists because people went, oh, God,
women can do that. Well, let's make sure they don't
fucking figure out how to run things because we're fucked. Yeah,
it's it's the best day of your life. Wow. And, um,
when you hold them, um, and your skins on them,
there's a pheromone conversation that happens between the two of you.

(05:11):
And it's the first time after the age of 25
that you get a burst of, um, brain growth. You
grow more neurons. The only time in your life to
help you deal with the extra logistics of this child.

S1 (05:25):
I need that. I've been pruning for years. Just add.
Give me some volume, please. God.

S2 (05:32):
Uh. It's fucking. It's so good to have you on
the show. We. Last time we spoke was under my
house in the old studio, which is still my office,
but it's not as spacious as this is. Um, and
we were on day six of Movember, and, you know,
I'm real undergunned compared to.

S1 (05:51):
You, man. My wife said, get that chin out of
my house. Oh, damn. She's just because my beard is pretty,
you know, voluminous. And this is. It's hard to know
what's underneath sometimes. And she's not into it. And I go,
men's health, mate. How dare you?

S2 (06:06):
You go straight from November to December. Beard.

S1 (06:09):
Oh, yeah. December.

S2 (06:10):
Yeah. Just go. You roll straight through and there it comes.
All right. Naturally there's what's that NBA player James Harden.
Like no one's seen his face in 15 years. What
does he look like.

S1 (06:20):
We've got we've got so Dan Repacholi who's a minister
in the Hunter. He's the UN special envoy on men's health.
The biggest fucking beard you've ever seen in your life.
Like 12 years growth.

S2 (06:32):
Proper bushranger. Yeah.

S1 (06:34):
He shaved it last last Friday for us. And his
children are screaming because they've never seen him. They have
no idea who this guy is. Yeah, yeah.

S2 (06:41):
What's going on with that?

S1 (06:42):
It's. It's pretty. It's scary stuff. I'm into it. It's
the magic. There's also a Halloween like just laying in.

S2 (06:49):
Ah, yes. This is, uh, a lot has happened in
the space of men's mental health, particularly men's mental health.
Since we last caught up, you had done a huge report.
You've done you've released another report last year. You know,
this is what you do.

S1 (07:04):
Spilling ink for a living.

S2 (07:05):
This is what you do, though. This is where the
rubber meets the road. This is where the money goes for.
For Movember is to is not, you know. Well, what
do we do with this cash we make? Huge differences
in Movember have gone leaps and bounds in changing how
research is done in the prostate cancer space. What's something
that you've done in the last you know, since we've
seen each other, you're like, wow, yeah, this is this

(07:26):
is big.

S1 (07:27):
Well, this is the funny thing that it's like this
month is for doing chats like this. And the rest
of the year we work and people don't understand. It's
like that's where the funds go. And I'm not the
one making decisions. We've got governance like, you know, legit
24 year old business. You know we've worked out how
to make decisions that are actually going to trickle down

(07:48):
into men's lives, but something that, you know, we've focused
on pretty heavily. And I'm sure you've got plenty of
thoughts on this is the manosphere. We spent a lot
of time looking at men and masculinity influences, and I
can talk about the research that we did, looking at
how young men are engaging online, what their worlds look like, um,
really specifically trying to get away from this deficit based.

(08:10):
Everything is fucking broken. Everyone is toxic. It's just a
bad idea for engaging young men in a conversation. And
we actually also moved away specifically from the term manosphere,
because I think last time we chatted, we were really
going deep on that because it was so early and
lots of this stuff was was blossoming. But we got
to the point where we realized that it's so mainstream

(08:32):
that the term manosphere, which was derived from this notion
of like incels and MRAs, men's rights activists, for instance,
and pickup artists, it's like that is the the least
of our problem at the moment. It's now like this
proliferation of content where a 15, 16 year old kid
is going on TikTok or otherwise, and within seconds is
being fed. It's funny because it goes from innocuous to

(08:54):
to harmful so quickly. And so we've done a lot
of work on that, which I can talk about. We're
also now focusing on AI and trying to understand the
way in which guys of all ages are using AI
for health information therapy or otherwise. So online gaming, we're
still doing a lot of that. And then we're really
focusing on the health system in an ongoing way to
build it in a way that's going to fundamentally, manifestly

(09:19):
help guys when they come in for help.

S2 (09:21):
A lot of the focus is on people who are
at risk, which is quite often young men who are,
I don't know, they're in the body of an adult
and they're 13 years old, 12 years old. I was
I was as tall as big as I was. I
think I was 13 or 14 when I was this big.
I didn't grow any further. So I've been this huge

(09:41):
since then, but with the brain of a child, you know,
and you can get into some problems. Thank God I
didn't have, you know, a dopamine machine in my hand
with all the porn and, you know, everything. Who knows
where I would have ended up for work? I have
to post stuff on these platforms I see, like, no, I,

(10:03):
you know, my last name's Ginsberg, right? Why are you
feeding me this? Like.

S1 (10:08):
But that's you've got critical insight because you're not a
digital native. Like, you can go, oh, I remember a
world where this shit wasn't ruining my life, and I'm
an immigrant, you know? You know that. You know, you're.

S2 (10:19):
Sending me to some guy who's, you know, lifting weights
and talking about how Australia's for Australians like. Huh?

S1 (10:24):
But it's terrifying to see how quickly if you if
you lean into the right narratives and you get a
guy in an isolated space, you weaponize his attention, you commercialise,
you know, and you really start to see that young
men specifically go, well, no one cares about me. I'm
not valued, I don't matter. Mattering is something that we're

(10:46):
starting to think about a lot more. Not in, you know,
at atomic terms, but in this idea of like, why
am I here? What do I have to offer? And
when the messaging, the coding around masculinity is so broken
and deficient, young guys are going, oh, this guy's promising
me the world. They don't fucking deliver. But I'll tell
you what they do. They pull you in, they say,

(11:08):
I've got a, you know, 12 step guide for you.
Follow this. And when things start to go poorly, isolate
yourself from all of the, you know, smart people in
your world who might actually shake you and blame women
and girls, blame migrants, blame everyone else. Even though I
am the source of your anger and confusion, because I've

(11:31):
taken your money, I've taken your time. I've disconnected you
from your friends. It's this dangerous cycle where they actually pull.
It's a cult. So I do think that we're going
to have to find a way to engage and empower
the user to understand that this isn't in their best interests.
And like myth busting with young guys, you know, they'll
go they'll listen to 3.5 hour podcasts because they want

(11:53):
like critical insight. And so it's like what matters to them?
What what values do they have and how can we
turn those up? Because they don't want to be ripped off.
They don't want to be taken advantage of. They actually
think they're getting a secret. And if we can show
them that the real secret is, is that Tate's university
is a piece of shit and it's taking all your
money and not offering anything. And this is how the

(12:14):
model works. No one is. No one is actually attempting
to pull the curtain back and say, hey, 15 year
old guy, because they're telling us they're like, oh, we
see this misogynistic crap, and they leave that at the
door or the homophobic stuff. I don't want that. But
I watch him because he's entertaining. And the fact that
entertainment and like, motivation and this idea of like optimism

(12:37):
you can be anything growth. It's beautiful. It's powerful. We
want more of that. But it's the fact that it
always comes with the shadow, which is that in order
to succeed, someone else has to suffer. In order to
do this, you must do this. And I actually think
that that is the real issue here, which is that

(12:58):
that's not made visible to these young guys. What they're
actually losing out because the people who watch more of
this stuff, the people who engage more, have more traditional
masculine values. They end up being much more isolated. Their
mental health is way worse. Their physical health is way worse.
The amount of time you spend on this stuff, the
worse you're going to feel.

S2 (13:19):
For people who have, you know, listened to what you
just said, and they're thinking about a young person in
their life. You mentioned something before, which was really important,
like anybody, but particularly young young men who are in
those kind of teenage years where What's going on? You
said it's important that they feel like they matter. How
can we make the young men in our life feel
like they matter?

S1 (13:39):
Mhm. I'd love you to think about yourself because I'm
reflecting back on, you know, 13, 14, 15 year old Zack.
I thought I fucking knew everything I did, but the
fact I got a PhD right now.

S2 (13:52):
So have that Mrs. Johnson mate.

S1 (13:55):
Don't don't get me started on my school teachers. I
went back and looked at my reports the other day,
and I was like, honestly though, because it did have
a very like, oh, he's inattentive. He runs around sometimes
and it's like. And then there was one teacher who, like,
saw my strengths and saw my mattering, and he was like,
this is what you're capable of. And there was kindness
and curiosity fundamentally. And parents, I think because they are

(14:19):
fundamentally out of their depth, they are not willing to
admit they don't know. And so they are leaning into
punitive measures. And that is just the worst way to
engage a young person. It's like, don't drink, don't smoke.
Let's just lock the door. You lock the door. We
watched adolescents. We see how, you know, locking the door.
What happens there? Yeah. You need to express the fact

(14:42):
that you're trying to work this shit out as well.
And you want to work it out alongside them. Mattering
to them means showing them that you value their opinion,
that if they're watching Tate, you don't go, give me
your phone. I'm deleting everything you say. What's happening? What
does that feel like? Why are you watching that? Do
you enjoy it? What are you not like? Leave the
judgment at the door. Find a way to connect with

(15:04):
his lived experience. Without that. Yeah. You're just saying I
am right. You are wrong. And all that does is
isolate him further into the darkness.

S2 (15:15):
The the other thing that these tech companies are making
money off is pretty much isolating young men and and
young women, but isolating young people and almost stripping them
of the experiences that they need to have in-person interactions.
Because it's a simulacrum of life right here, I get

(15:39):
to have it without leaving my house. But it's not
the same. So if we're noticing a young a young
person in our life has started, you know, doesn't have
that many mates or or, you know, is starting to
isolate and not wanting to go out on weekends and
hang with people. What can we do? What can we do?
Because they're not gonna hang out with us.

S1 (15:58):
I think the interesting thing around that is, you know,
the likes of Rogan and others, young guys always tell
us sitting and watching this stuff makes them feel like
they have friends. They're watching guys in a room, hanging out,
smoking joints, having a good time, and they're like, there's
this cultural relevancy, there's this feeling of connection, but it

(16:20):
washes away very quickly. There's actually no depth to it.
And lots of these guys are watching this content in
order to be relevant in order to have things to say,
but they don't have anyone to say it to. And
so I actually think that if we can get to
the point where, you know, offline now, the fact that
we talk about online offline is crazy. Like the fact

(16:42):
that young people specifically are spending more time online than
they are with real people is like the worst 2030
video I've ever seen. You know, it's like, what happened
to The Jetsons? Why don't we have flying cars and
everyone's happy? You know, the idea of what modernism, you know,
professed to offer us? I think this is a failed

(17:04):
social experiment. And the social media ban is an example
of us trying to, you know, we're very good at
regulating in Australia. Other countries I don't think are really
going to follow, but a few might. We need to
understand that you have to if you're going to create
these open slather new worlds for people to inhabit, you

(17:25):
need to consider the ramifications of that. You need to
consider how history has always gone and the fact that
tech is not always good. And there are some people
who are not willing to admit that. But tech can
be very good for specific things. It's going to, you know,
from a biological perspective, we're going to cure disease through AI.
Like there's so many benefits here. It's offering therapy to

(17:46):
people in regional areas who could never see anybody like awesome,
awesome stuff. But like unfettered access 24 hours a day. Non-regulated.
Very worrying. So like, what can we do in the
offline world with our kids specifically to be like, you know,
and I think that that comes down to finding a

(18:07):
way to to create connective tissue with them. You know,
I know you ride with your kids, you go and,
you know, doing like physical activities which are away creating,
bonding that feels good for you and them not doing
what you think they want to do. And I think
that that's just the M.O. across the board, which is

(18:28):
that parents decide this is how my childhood was. This
is what they value. But you are working against the
pokie machines, you know, in their heads.

S2 (18:40):
In their pockets. Yeah. Yeah. The.

S1 (18:43):
And it will pull them. You feel that every morning.
I feel my fucking phone talking to me.

S2 (18:46):
Oh I've. And it pains me to say this, but I've,
I'm like I'm not a perfect parent. And yes, my
son has an iPad every now and again, but I've
seen what he's like when it's time to turn off,
you know, this or that. He's it looks like withdrawal.
He goes he now suddenly he's got this huge crash,

(19:09):
this giant, you know, dopamine crash and he's act out
and he's freaked out and he's he's only six. And
so we get around him and we try to help
him out like that. But if you've got a man
sized version of that, which, let's be honest, I was
15 years old bumping into things, man, I wasn't very insightful.
You know, just keep watching it, mate. Just keep watching.

(19:29):
I understand why people just go, no, no, no, no,
just just keep doing that thing. Because when you stop
doing that thing, it's horrible for everybody. It's easier if
you just do that thing. But by letting him just
do that thing, what they're missing out on is just
years of getting it right, getting it wrong, figuring out
what another person you know.

S1 (19:50):
Had a date, how to be rejected, how to.

S2 (19:53):
Oh my God.

S1 (19:53):
Anything, anything.

S2 (19:55):
And that's that's the real thing. I mean, there's there's
young women in my life, you know, that I know
through my, my stepdaughter and they, they don't really have boyfriends. No.
Like guys don't ask them out.

S1 (20:09):
But this is where have you heard the term hetero fatalism?

S2 (20:12):
Tell me about this.

S1 (20:13):
What's this idea?

S2 (20:13):
I don't know if I want to know about it.
Like this is the last moment of my life. I
don't know about this. Hit me.

S1 (20:18):
This is. this is the, the saddest, you know, social
cohesion manifestation that you can see, which is this idea
that young women are like, I don't want a bar
of this. I have no desire. There's too much risk.
They don't ask me questions. They have completely different political
ideologies to me. I'm going to red flag the shit

(20:40):
out of everyone. Like that's a horrible reality to be
living in. I, I, I don't say that I blame them.
I think that we need to find a new communication style. If,
you know, we used to have this Venn diagram where
not only young people and middle aged people would have

(21:01):
an overlap in their media diets, but young women and
young men would have a massive overlap. We would see
the same stuff, you know, we would watch the same things,
play the same games, etc. we're now at the point
where they literally they don't touch these circles, do not touch.
And how do you expect to put them in the
same room when they've been told that the other is dangerous,

(21:23):
that the other is stupid and conservative and whatever it
might be? My issue, really, with the way in which
we're we're framing this whole thing, is that it's not
it's not truth. Like talking about young men and young
women in these homogenous blobs is so at odds with
the reality of what's happening on the ground. But when

(21:45):
you put those stories out into the world, we now
have a self-fulfilling prophecy. And we have and this is
you know, I've spoken on various podcasts, which I know
young women are listening to.

S2 (21:55):
You see, other podcasters. I thought.

S1 (21:57):
I was.

S2 (21:58):
I thought.

S1 (21:58):
My main squeeze.

S2 (21:59):
This is like.

S1 (22:00):
Don't worry.

S2 (22:01):
Who the fuck is Madeleine? This is like.

S1 (22:02):
The.

S2 (22:03):
It's like the Lily Allen record.

S1 (22:05):
I know, well, you invited me to your house once
and you didn't invite me back my wife. Now we
have to be seen.

S2 (22:09):
You were there.

S1 (22:10):
Now we have to be seen in public spaces. That's
how this works. We will do the sauna next.

S2 (22:15):
You. But you never said yes to my sauna invitation. So. Hey, look. Wait.

S1 (22:18):
What will happen next time in badges for. No.

S2 (22:21):
Every man, every night. Sorry. So you have had these conversations.

S1 (22:26):
Around and and young women are like, I don't want
to do the work on behalf of the guy that
I'm sitting across from. Yeah. Totally fair. I think that that,
you know, this idea of emotion regulation and, you know,
finding a sense of self and value and etc. is
young men's work to do, but we're not really offering
them a pipeline to get there. We're not offering them

(22:48):
a pathway. We're not offering them models to do so.

S2 (22:50):
So what does that look like? How can we help?
How can we help young men in these pipelines? What
what is the model of masculinity that these young guys
can aspire to?

S1 (23:03):
You know, we talk about role models. I do not
believe that's the panacea here. I'm moving very far away
from that. I think just putting another footy player on
a pedestal for him to fall off does not do
any favors for masculinity. I think I also am moving
away from the term masculinity and towards manhood.

S2 (23:20):
Yeah.

S1 (23:21):
It's it's iterative, it's evolution. It's growth. It's it's a
it's a ongoing state. You know, it's not like a static.
Do you have it or do you not?

S2 (23:33):
So let me ask you this. What's the difference between
boyhood and manhood? What are the things that we want
to develop to, to grow into manhood?

S1 (23:42):
I think it's that's kind of the difference between childhood
and adulthood. And when it comes to being a man,
I actually think it's about expanding from self to other.
That's what I think healthy manhood should be, which is
like the narcissist, which is the child. Give me ice cream,
I need this, I need that my needs come first to.

(24:03):
When you move into your mid-teens, you get to the
point where you say, oh, my parents have thoughts and feelings,
I might need to respond differently. Oh, there's a girl
over there. I might need to, you know, ask for consent.
All of these types of things, questions come into play.
And I think that the the positive, healthy manhood is

(24:25):
going project outward, look outward, look at everyone but yourself
and see how they're responding to you and internalize that
rather than what I think currently happens, which is this
let's close up shop, because I've been told that this
is the only way to be. And so you actually
don't take in those beams that are coming from the world.

S2 (24:47):
The any kind of information that might give you a
clue that what you're doing might not be getting you
where you want to go. Not saying it's wrong, but
if you want this job, this partner you know not
to be yelled at to make more money, I don't know, um,
maybe it's you.

S1 (25:04):
But. But it's funny because a certain type like you
look at goals, goals is the best way from a
therapist perspective is to get young men to fucking do anything.
It's like, what do you want to achieve here? And
they say, I want to make a million bucks by
this time, I want a girlfriend, etc. all of those
things you can frame in a way that's like, all right,
if you're the dickhead who walks into the club shouldering everyone,

(25:26):
demanding that seat, asking for a drink, pushing people away,
no girl is coming up to you, like, look at
the end game. Yeah. And I think that if we
can get to the point where we where we reframe
the idea that nice guys finish first because they do
in the end. And I now go into schools and
I'm like, all right, let's talk about because we talk

(25:48):
about manhood, masculinity. And there's always some guy like snickering
in the back. And I'm not here to police or
shame because that's the worst way to get behavior to change.
So I'm I'm just curious. I'm like, what's what's going on?
And he's like, oh, he's he's a pussy. He was
saying this thing about his sister and, and I'm like,
all right, so you're you think you're the Alpha, or

(26:10):
at least everyone because everyone was cowering around this kid
and I just looked him in the eye and like,
this hierarchy will not hold for you. You think you're
on top. This is a fucking deck of cards. You're.
It's all over. So understanding the long game and going
to these young guys. You want power, you want privilege,

(26:31):
you want a partner, whatever it might be. This is
the surefire way to have longevity in the game. Not
wake up at 30 and be like, what have I done.

S2 (26:43):
To be an asset to others? To be seen as
an asset, to be seen as useful to others. Service
gives you value to them and versus to be seen
as like, I need others to get what I want. Well,
others aren't going to help you for very long. You
might work for a little while. That guy leaves school.
He's like, oh, there's bigger, scarier people who just got.

S1 (27:06):
Here, and I didn't learn anything. Nope. To do that. Yeah.
And I don't have any real mates.

S2 (27:10):
Yeah, yeah. All I know, all I know how to
do is be, you know, competitive. Probably because I hurt inside.
But now I'm in a lot of trouble.

S1 (27:19):
But the hurting, the hurting inside, it's like, how do
you how do you give them access to that in
a way that's not. Yeah. It's going to be scary.
It's always going to be scary. But if you can
like normalize it as the way as you can suggest
that there there is no way to becoming a man
without doing that work, without feeling those things, without talking

(27:41):
to other guys about it. Mhm. I just think that
that needs to be sold as the norm, you know.

S2 (27:49):
What are some ways that we can have our young
men and particularly like if you've been raised by a
dad who only knows what he knows but knows that
what he knows probably isn't great, but he doesn't know
where to start. Yeah. Like, what's the thing that a
dad or a mom like, might be able to do
for that young kid, for sure.

S1 (28:05):
So, you know, John Haidt speaks about this a lot
when he's talking about social media, um, and trying to
curb screen time. You know, peers are everything, especially to
young guys. The fear of ostracism is what leads them
to do bad shit fundamentally, even if it's at odds
with their desires, they will enact a certain behavior. They'll

(28:28):
laugh at a sexist joke, they'll beat up the, you know, nerd,
whatever it might be, in order to feel like they belong.
And it's strange because that that resentment that they actually
feel for themselves, they put it on others, and then
shame gets externalized and it ends up in this really
dangerous cycle where they go, I actually hate myself, but

(28:49):
I'm never going to admit that. I'm just going to
keep beating the shit out of others. And so what
you can do is rather than trying to address this
stuff in your child in isolation. Do it with the group.
If you can get the five other parents who are
amenable to this and like start a dads and sons

(29:12):
activity of some kind because it norms it then. And
he's not just a weirdo who's like hanging out with
his dad, doing this thing, going out bush, whatever it
might be. And we don't need to lean into rites
of passage in the formal sense, but connection is always
attachment is like at the core of our human needs.
It's all young guys want. And so if you can

(29:34):
firm that up for them and show them that because
they often think, oh, if I hang out with my dad,
I'm losing something else. Yeah. If you can say no, no, no,
we're going to bring around your mates as well, and
we're going to find a way to make this restorative
and fun and whatever else. Um, I just think that
that's the way and when you're on those activities, as

(29:56):
I said at the start, tell your kid that you
don't know what's fucking happening. Tell them because we could
be in our 30s, 40s, 50s. It doesn't matter that
we are on the journey with them. That I didn't
have anxiety or depression, I have it. It's a part

(30:17):
of me. I'm living with it. I'm learning with it.
And I went through, you know, there was this thing
I went through, what you went through when I was
a teenager. So, so much past tense. I'm. I'm the
master now. I've overcome these things when in fact, you
still work, you know, walk into a new workplace and
you're like a 15 year old in the schoolyard.

S2 (30:37):
Oh, yeah.

S1 (30:38):
Same thing.

S2 (30:39):
Here we are. Yeah, let's figure this out.

S1 (30:41):
The messiness of manhood. Like, it's it's beautiful. You know.

S2 (30:44):
It is the idea of the peer group thing. And
this is what I saw in G. Who's she had
her schoolmates. But then because she was so heavily involved
in her dance school two, she went to two dance schools.
She had this whole other peer group. And it was
wonderful because I never saw her get caught up in

(31:05):
any malarkey through fear of, well, I don't want to
be on the outer. It was like, okay, well, those
other girls are going off to this thing and I'm. No, no, no. Yeah.
Trying to have that, you know, another peer group outside
of the, the main kind of main kind of gang
that they hang with.

S1 (31:23):
Because you get locked in. Yeah. You get locked in
in a, in a hierarchy. You're that guy. It's the
same thing with siblings. It's like you can be 40
and you come home for Christmas and you're all in
the same. Oh, like role immediately. And the same thing
happens with the five guys. It's like, oh, he's the larrikin.
He's the this. And everyone plays these roles, which is
just you have no room to move. And that's why

(31:45):
you'll always get someone who just, like, fucks off to India. Yeah.
And then they come back and it's like, oh, we
can't talk to him anymore because he's suddenly actually evolved
or found, you know, a new part of himself, and
he doesn't fit into our jigsaw puzzle anymore. So I
actually like that idea of and that's kind of what
Movember actually attempts to do, which is I always witness

(32:07):
during this month that, like the groups of guys who
come together for whatever their yearly, you know, crazy, like,
let's go lawnmowers for the Guinness World Record, whatever, they
don't actually know each other. And it's like they've now
got a shared purpose and a shared activity and whatever
else it might be. We can talk about, you know,

(32:28):
social disconnection and isolation and loneliness, which is just the
thing that is a part, sadly, of masculinity, really, to
become a man is to lose things. Yeah, it's a
process of grief. And I think that that's something that I,
I believe we can turn around, but at the moment

(32:51):
it's like you go from being a five year old
with an incredible spectrum of emotionality, with wanting to be
everyone's best friend. You come home from daycare every day
and you're like, oh my God.

S2 (33:02):
You sing and dance.

S1 (33:03):
You sing and dance, sing and dance.

S2 (33:06):
And.

S1 (33:06):
Act. You wear tutus. You do whatever you want to do.
And then there are these inflection points where you witness
the policing, you witness the risk, you witness this shame
and embarrassment, which is like the DNA of masculinity in Australia.
And you cauterize parts of yourself, you lesion it, you

(33:27):
get rid of these beautiful elements. You know, I think
of it in some ways, in the same way that
lots of gay guys have to, you know, be in
the closet for an extended period of time. There are
just different, different closets, you know? And it's not about
these groups, these identities. It's about your true self, your

(33:49):
authentic self. And I think that the mask that we
wear is so at odds with our authentic self. And
if you look back and I think so many parents
are grieving when they watch their son go from five
to 10 to 15. And it's as if that this
is a natural process because young women go through something similar,

(34:09):
they become snarky, etc. but they don't. They actually seem
to expand their world and lots of young guys, it narrows. Yeah,
I don't think that that is how it used to be,
and I don't think it's necessary.

S2 (34:23):
Um, when I was at the north of Ochre Surf
Club or the Avoca Beach Surf Club with Heggie after
a storytelling show we did up there. Um, they have
the photos all around the walls, and it looks like
it was Movember all year round. Like, it's like just
just with, like, slabs of pectorals, like it's huge surf boats, hair.

(34:47):
There's no fucking clippers on their chest or anything. It's
just like good back hair, everything. And he pointed at
he goes, men like that used to bring people together. Mhm.
And it really struck me. It really, really struck me
is that's what that's what manhood was was, was I'm

(35:09):
I am yes I am a man. I mean social
roles are very clear, far more clearly defined in, in
a time when everyone had a mustache all year round. Yeah. Uh,
so there was, you know, I am protector. I'm a provider.
This is what my role is here, and this is
what I do. I know where my duty starts and stops.
And it was a, you know, a thing that had

(35:32):
its benefits, had its side effects. But when where's the
lines now, where's the role? Um, I earn less than
my partner. Mhm. You know, I don't know my, my
kid wants me to call him a non-specific name. I
don't know what to do now.

S1 (35:49):
But this is the idea that flux is bad. And
I think that, you know, this gender reckoning of like
modern and traditional ideologies clashing is frightening. And so everyone
returns to what they know or what they've seen, as
if that was always in our best interests. It wasn't.
We look at our dads or our grandfathers and we're like,

(36:11):
there are parts of this that I want, I want
to take on, and there is plenty that I want
to end with me. And I think we lose sight.

S2 (36:19):
Of walk in the door. Yeah.

S1 (36:22):
Table now?

S2 (36:23):
Yeah. Food table now. Cigarette? You shut up. You shut up.
You shut up! I don't want to hear it.

S1 (36:28):
Let me talk about my day.

S2 (36:29):
Whiskey bar?

S1 (36:31):
Yep. Someone else put them to bed.

S2 (36:33):
Yeah, that was it.

S1 (36:34):
Yeah. My grandma's now. Like, oh, my, my brother's got two,
two girls and she's like, oh my God, you're such
a active father because he cooks and he and she
literally cannot conceptualize it. And that's to say that these
roles are so deeply ingrained that plenty of women are like, oh,
this is where the Tradwife movement has come from, you know,

(36:56):
in so many ways. And so I think that we
can get to a point where you don't have to
throw out the baby with the bathwater. It is good
to have roles and responsibilities. And there are these core
elements of altruism and service and connection and finding ways,
you know, to have this idea of growth and self-development.

(37:17):
They don't need to be only tied to masculinity. Plenty
of women do it. They do it in whatever way
they see fit. But I do think that there has
to be a 21st century where we say the modern
man looks different, feels different, acts different, and still feels, yeah,

(37:41):
still feels Like a man still looks like a man
and is is able to to show up in whatever
way he sees fit.

S2 (37:50):
There was a moment at the end of the State
of Origin this year, uh, which Queensland won, and rightly so,
because they're amazing when, um, uh, Cameron Munster, who had
lost his father ten days, I think, before the game,
the second game and you can see Munster and Slater

(38:11):
approach each other and these men hug and they both
start crying and they just let this. They didn't cut away.
They let this frame happen. Here's this guy who just
played 80 minutes of full, terrible, terrifyingly violent football. Right.
And another man who has knows exactly what that is.
And his body is probably full of cortisone, right? The

(38:32):
only reason he can get out of bed and they're
holding each other and crying. And not one person was like, oh, yeah,
a bit of emotion there, but like, everyone was like,
there it is. Like, that's what's going to happen. It's
a big moment and it was cool. And I kind
of really like that, that we are at a place
now where not feel ashamed, not trying to hide our

(38:53):
faces from the camera, not feel that we can't do it,
but just be. I thought that was a freaking brilliant thing.
Like for all the things we're talking about that are frightening,
that moment was like, man, that is, I'm glad that happened.

S1 (39:05):
Yeah. I am deeply optimistic about where things are heading
despite the the winds, you know, that are that are
hitting us, that are actually not young men's fault. They
didn't create them. This is this is society kind of
pinning them. But what you're talking about there is like
the the spectrum of condoned behavior that is slowly opening up.

(39:27):
You know, Federer cried every time Obama cried, like within
sport and grief, there are certain and I think we're
starting to open that up. But then you look at
like Mitch Brown, who's a lovely guy. Been hanging out
with him. Um, you know, came out as the first
openly bi, um, X player in the AFL, and he

(39:47):
copped it. He copped it. So I think that we
need to it's two truths that we are making progress
and that we have a deeply ingrained discomfort with the
idea that there are multiple ways of being. The idea
that masculinity can evolve can look different, and that we're
not telling you there's anything wrong with you. Maca sitting

(40:10):
at home. Yeah. This isn't a threat. This is an invitation. Yeah,
this is an invitation to come and join. Join the
brotherhood of. Firstly, we're going to fucking live longer.

S2 (40:24):
Yes.

S1 (40:25):
You're gonna not, you know, have as many divorces. It's
not going to be as violent. You're not going to
drink as much. Your kids are actually going to talk
to you. There's not a lot of downside here. Yeah.
Like if you're not making as much, you can talk
to your wife about it, and you can actually come
up with a plan rather than just internalize it all and,
you know, freak out. I just think that, as with anything,

(40:47):
the same thing with feminism, it doesn't matter. We are
not doing a good enough marketing job here.

S2 (40:52):
Yeah.

S1 (40:53):
What do you want? We're going to help you get there.

S2 (40:56):
I just just on sport. There's one more thing. I
can't remember his name. He's an Australian college basketball player.
There was a press conference and.

S1 (41:04):
He was an NFL player in Nebraska.

S2 (41:06):
NFL player?

S1 (41:06):
That's right. He's homesick.

S2 (41:07):
NFL player. And they just won the game. And he's
doing the press conference. And they asked him and he
goes to answer the question and he just bursts into
tears and he's unable to speak. And then he goes, ah,
but yeah that's about it. Any other questions? He just
like like he was like.

S1 (41:24):
And didn't say sorry over and over again.

S2 (41:26):
Didn't explain it. Didn't qualify.

S1 (41:28):
It. That one was a new.

S2 (41:30):
Look at me, mate. I'm in goosebumps because he's like.

S1 (41:32):
And he was he was bawling. This wasn't like snot bubbles.

S2 (41:36):
Like he was like.

S1 (41:37):
I love my mum and dad and I'm. Yeah.

S2 (41:39):
And. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Well, thanks for thanks for being here, guys.
No worries. It was a completely that was his answer.

S1 (41:46):
I got a call from, from CNN that morning and
they were like, uh, we'd like to talk to an
Australian about Australian emotionality amongst men. And they're like, this
is incredible. This this is an Australian thing. And I
was like, you don't understand like that. That is such
an outlier. But it breaks the mold. And again, it

(42:07):
tells people. But that's a really beautiful way of role modeling.
He doesn't need to be a role model. He doesn't
need to be the guy. His behavior is the thing. Yeah.
And that's in the doing in the showing in the
same way that fathering is about the ING, it's about
the verbing. It's about the doing. It's not about like, oh,
dad's got a good job, and I've got this thing

(42:28):
in the back of my head of like, he's my
hero versus he shows up, He does the fucking dishes.
He does the nappies. Whatever it might be. And he
doesn't say anything about it. Like that's the doing. And
that is how you pass down positive manhood to your kids.

S2 (42:46):
When I saw that clip, my first response was like,
there's mum and dad who've ace ace job like gold medal.
Well done. That is that he feels held.

S1 (42:56):
He feels safe enough to actually be himself.

S2 (43:01):
Just need to take a quick break from Doctor Zack.
We'll be right back. Just before we get back to
Doctor Zack, let me just take a moment to say
to you the YouTube channel for Story Club is finally live.
I tried to put it on Substack, but that seemed
like a hard conversation, uh, to people to figure out.

(43:25):
It's another thing to subscribe to. So, uh, we've got
six stories that are up there right now. Uh, new
stories coming every week, and I couldn't be more happy.
The next Story Club show is probably going to be
about February, but if you subscribe to that channel and
you get on it, you'll get new stories every single week.
Speaking of subscription, if you like this show, if this
show is useful to you, please subscribe to it. Follow it,

(43:45):
like it, rate it. Comment it. Tell a friend. It
really helps us. Let's get back to Doctor Zack. And
this is the point where you were. What? Less than
two months away from having a child. What are you
trying to approach fatherhood with?

S1 (44:07):
Damn. It's funny how when it comes back to me,
if I tell someone I'm about to have a kid,
it doesn't resonate in my brain. So much easier to.

S2 (44:13):
Tell other people how to.

S1 (44:14):
Do stuff. Trust me, someone says it to me. I'm like,
is this about to happen? Is this yes.

S2 (44:19):
This is the part you get to go. I was
back on meds by the time I was where you are. Yeah,
because this is often when men go, oh fuck, it's oh,
it's really happening and there's nothing you can do about it.
It's on.

S1 (44:31):
100%.

S2 (44:32):
And you're gonna. You're gonna be.

S1 (44:33):
There. I'm gonna be there. I'm gonna be there. I'm.
I'm trying to. I've had so many people, and I
spoke with Ramsey. Said, you know, incredible distinguished gentleman's ride
partners with Movember, best mustache, best motorbike. And he is
just so lovely. And he said the other day, he's
like any expectation you have been it now nothing will
happen that you expect or it will just, you know,

(44:57):
it'll blossom in beautiful ways and, you know, be a
shitstorm in, in others. Um, I'm trying to not I
think it's really hard. My wife is a psychologist as well.
Like the the the external pressure that we're going to
have this.

S2 (45:09):
You guys must be great when you argue.

S1 (45:11):
Oh, man, I hear what you're saying.

S2 (45:14):
Oh my God. No.

S1 (45:16):
I literally never do that. I, I don't, I don't
I just want to validate you right now. Yeah. No
no no I'm more of a coach. I, I'm like,
this is how you're fighting with me, but this is
what's possible. Why don't we go here? No, we don't
do any of that. Just slam a door and sit
in silence. Not gonna get everyone's done, man. Everyone's the
fucking same. Um, but that that idea that we're gonna,

(45:39):
you know, be more evolved. Like, I think knowledge is power. Definitely.
To a certain extent. It's also when I know what
I need to do or how I need to respond,
and I don't have the energy or the patience to
do so. The knowledge is not necessarily going to be
that useful. But when it comes to being a dad,

(45:59):
I love the I love the thought of like, reprioritization
I love. I'm already feeling it now. The third trimester,
we're like third floor walk up. I'm like building a,
you know, chair so that cats can sit halfway up. Um,
and that idea of how I show up, what my

(46:20):
role is, and leaning into things that have really never
been of interest to me. Like patience, like impatience has
gotten me where I am. Being a hustler. Working like
a dog, meeting everyone. Saying yes to every trip, every podcast,
every everything. And now to go. Stability and sameness. Monotony

(46:47):
is beauty. Mhm. Um, is is shit scary? But I'm
up for it for sure. And so I think that
I'm most looking forward to I'm like the reason I
am a psychologist is because I'm obsessed with human behavior.
I'm like, why do they do that? Why? And you know,
it's like obso humor, but and some people find it

(47:08):
fucking annoying. But my therapist said to me, the first
five years of this kid's life is like your sweet
spot because you can tell him everything, and you know,
they get later on and they're not going to listen
to you. But that idea of like, molding Life is
the greatest thing that I could ever imagine, let alone

(47:29):
I'm grappling with the fact that. I've got two nieces.
That idea of, like, caring and nurturing for a young
girl feels much more natural to me. I've never felt
that that type of, like, soft love for another man.
And so to to be able to be reparented by

(47:51):
my own child, um, and, and be able to to
see that I can love a man. I love my mates.
But it's it's going to be a very different, like,
ride or die situation. And I am fully up for everything.
Just being exploded like that sounds fun to me.

S2 (48:13):
Knowing what I know about, um, you know, I used
to work on the on the board at Saint Australia
and knowing how dangerous it is to be a young
man in Australia. When I found out we were having
a boy, I really struggled because. You know, I've seen

(48:36):
fucking terrible pub violence in my time. You know, I've,
I've seen, you know, people end up, they just make
one dumb decision and then, you know, that's it. I
don't see them again. And it's terrifying things that are
completely beyond your control, beyond out of your control. Knowing
what you know about, you know, developmental psychology and men's

(49:00):
mental health and things that happen in schools and stuff
like that. Is there a part of you that's like, oh,
just accepting that I've got no control of it or
as a part of you is like, oh no, no,
I know exactly what to do here, here, here, here. Like,
where are you?

S1 (49:15):
Yeah, I it's funny because when we found out the gender,
that's very much a time where I think it becomes
real and you're like, oh my God, this is a thing.
And it's, you know.

S2 (49:25):
When you see the blue smoke coming off the burnout,
that's when you know.

S1 (49:28):
You know me. I'm real big on gender reveals.

S2 (49:30):
Yeah, we had one. It was awesome.

S1 (49:32):
The basketball, it exploded. Um, but the the cast said
it's it's so funny. Just in line with what you're saying.
She goes to me. Oh, she just breathed a sigh
of relief and she goes, oh, he's going to be okay.
Because her belief system is that men just get by.

S2 (49:55):
Wow.

S1 (49:56):
That the the way in which they move through the
world is, is far safer for me. I'm like, what
the fuck? Have you seen the stats? And I understand
from like a day to day basis, you know, we
see but from a decision making internalized situation. Girls live longer.

(50:16):
They make better decisions long term. Their health is better.
Their education, you know, they're better at school.

S2 (50:22):
I don't think your wife has been in the boot
of an airborne Mazda 626 out the back of Bellbowrie. Uh,
you know, and with eight other dudes in that car,
because it was a great idea for sure.

S1 (50:35):
She said to me, I just don't want him to
jump off some high cliff somewhere. That's that's.

S2 (50:40):
The first thing he's gonna.

S1 (50:41):
Do. Yeah, I know, I was like, mate, that is
all I did. It was the best thing ever. But
I think that, uh, I am I really don't want
to be that guy who knows something, and so goes
we're going to turn off all of these parts of you.
You can't possibly go and do all of those things
because then he doesn't actually get socialized. And risk is important.
But if I can actually do it with him, I

(51:03):
think that that that's where it's at, like having the
physicality going and doing the things, whatever. Um, I'm pretty
excited about that. I am concerned about the socialization process.
I think, like I think I will inject myself, as
I kind of said, with other dads and try and
show up in a hands on way to show them what,

(51:24):
you know, I think is is possible, but the way
in which they interact is, is fundamentally out of my
control and is going to do dumb shit like we
did dumb shit.

S2 (51:34):
Of course, that's how you learn anything.

S1 (51:35):
But it's how you can minimize the really crazy stuff.

S2 (51:38):
When I see that other dads that Wolf goes to
school with and the other dads that I'm around dads
pretty switched on, you know. And so the hope, I guess,
that I would have for both our kids is that
the cohort of kids that are coming up now, they've
been raised in response to all the stuff that you

(51:59):
guys have been doing research around for kids who are
now 1516 and 1718. But the fathers who are raising
their young boys now are like, well, fuck no, I
don't want that. And so their hands on, they are
in their Halloween the other night at our joint. We
live in one of those ones in Petersham, ones in Mosman. Yeah,
like there's some streets that are just bonkers. We live
in one of those streets like dads who are like

(52:23):
another saja boy with their son, or with their daughter
like they are in the K-pop. They're in the gear.
They're there. And to be honest, it's good for my
mental health as well. It's great to be out there
with other dads and kind of go, oh, great, it's
not just me. Yeah, it's wild, isn't it? Because there's
no dads groups. There's heaps of mothers groups. There's no
dads group started.

S1 (52:42):
That's something I'll probably aim to blow up. But I
think that what you're talking about there is like the,
you know, the 0 to 7 year old kids dads
are showing up. There's no doubt about that. The issue
is that because, you know, paternity leave is getting better,
everyone's taking time at the start and it's really important time.
But then they they pull back 12 to 18. And

(53:05):
that's actually when they need far more time. Like you
should take paternity leave. You should take six six months
of leave when they're 1314 and go and like spend
time with them, take them on a road trip, whatever
it might be, because that's when identity development happens in
a really different way. That's when the socialization happens and
that's when parents pull out. They go, nah, this is

(53:27):
too hectic, you're too moody. The screen can do it
for you, or your teachers can do it for you.
And they they disengage. If we can get that same
0 to 5 for, you know, 15 to 20, we'd
have a different world.

S2 (53:41):
There's, um, a line that was one of my mates.
Stevie told me, he said to me, oh, yeah, they're
going to ignore you. You have to be there for
them to ignore. You have to be the edge. You
have to be the boundary. And it sucks because you
never loved anyone like that and they don't want to
bury you. And I understand why people go, um, okay,
then fuck off. Yeah. And they just leave. I get that,

(54:04):
but it's really hard to take it in the face
for a couple of years.

S1 (54:08):
Opposite action.

S2 (54:08):
But that's.

S1 (54:09):
The job. But The fundamentally that's the job. But also
it's like, that's what we say always at Movember. Like
the the check in is the most important thing. And
we we underestimate what the check in looks like. It's
always like, oh, I sent a message to him. He
didn't respond. And I was like, when did you last
hear from him? Then he was like, oh, three months ago.

(54:30):
And I'm like, no. When did you misunderstand? The consistency
is key. You must be able to understand that that
rejection of him not responding to you, that doesn't tell
you anything about yourself. That's nothing that you need to
internalize about having failed what you're doing, in the same

(54:51):
way that you're showing up at dinner and they're not
looking you in the eye. They're not talking or responding
to you because down the line, when they've got some
sinister fucking guy online freaking them out, ready to take
their money and send nudes, whatever it might be. They
know that you're there that night in the same way
that your mate who is suicidal and is sitting at

(55:14):
home on his own. But you've sent him a message
every week at a Thursday morning. He knows it's coming,
and this time he's going to tell you I'm not
all right.

S2 (55:21):
Yeah, right.

S1 (55:22):
Just I don't know when the social fabric fell away
and we had, like, needs based communication don't show up
in moments of crisis. In the same way, I don't
want to see you as a therapist when you can't
get out of bed. I will, and you end up
always doing that crisis intervention. But I would rather see

(55:43):
you when you're well. I want to see my mates
when they're well, and I want to tell them when
shit hits the fan. I got you. And you need
to do the same thing with kids consistently, because that's
where they get this understanding that they have an emotional
crutch that they can lean on when they need it.

S2 (56:01):
Knowing what you know about the state of mental health
in Australia. Men's mental health in Australia. Are you optimistic?

S1 (56:10):
I really do think that we're on the verge of
a revolution because. And that requires that we stop talking
about young guys and start talking with them. So, for instance,
now finally at Movember, we've got a youth advisory council.
A yak once a month we're going to meet with them.
We're going to say we're doing this. What do you reckon?

(56:32):
And they say that sucks. That's not how we talk.
That's not the way to do things. I am very
optimistic that if we walk around our neighbourhoods, dads are
doing the pickup. You know, dads are cooking like we're
shifting some of these norms. It's just consistency. It's just

(56:53):
making sure that we do this day in and day
out and that we we do the modeling and that
we also talk about it more broadly with our mates.
I don't think that, like you sit around the pub
and the the banter is awesome. This is the thing
I don't. I don't want to get rid of it.
The other day I went away with my mates for
a weekend at a dad's stag, if you will, and

(57:16):
the ability to to move so quickly between the light
and the dark, I think is the greatest thing about
like Australian masculinity, being able to move from a guy
who's just lost his dad and then be able to
make jokes ten minutes later and then come back to it.
We're not just going to leave him hanging because we
know it's raw, but he needs to look away. And

(57:38):
I think that the more we can have those types
of conversations, I don't want these dark mental health conversations
in a corner where it's like, what do you need?
How are we going to do it? In the same
way that we're having every other chat and you just
filter it through. And so I've got faith that that
guys want to be a part of a movement for change.

(57:58):
They don't they're not happy with how things are. And
I just hope that we have that precipice where things
topple over and they go, I'm not going to blame
everyone else for my problems. I'm gonna, like, grab the
bull by the horns and go, I got this. I
can do something different.

S2 (58:18):
Just before we go, you mentioned something about, um, I
just would like to kind of leave a bit on this.
The idea of manhood being a reversal of from the
self to the other. What what what are some qualities?
What are some what are the verbs that that looks
like for people so they can kind of get their

(58:39):
head around what that is like in reality?

S1 (58:43):
Yeah. Well it's it's about showing up. It's about cooking.
It's about cleaning. But it's about it's about crying because
someone else is hurt. Not just because you're hurt. You know,
it's about. Sitting with your kid in the pain and

(59:06):
not trying to fix it. It's it's about realizing that
you don't need to suffer in order to be the
protector and provider. And I think that that's where we've
lost sight of what masculinity can and should be. Rather
than going, oh no, I've got to look after my family,

(59:28):
and therefore I'm not going to look after myself, because
going to see a therapist is money that could go
to rent, or is time that could go to my job,
whatever it might be, instead realizing that self destruction is
at odds with the other and that you don't need

(59:49):
to put yourself first. That's not what we're asking for.
It's just respecting self in order to value others. And
I think that lots of guys go, oh, if I
just push my own needs down. That's that's good manhood.
My own emotions, my own needs, my own, you know,

(01:00:09):
thoughts and feelings. If I push those down, then others
won't suffer. But it bleeds out of you.

S2 (01:00:14):
Yeah, we can stick it out for a while, but
eventually that cortisol will. There's a reason why heart disease
is the number one killer in Australia. I know we've
spoken a lot about mental health, but like, there's, there's
there's that and so many other things that have caused you.

S1 (01:00:27):
You eat your feelings, you drink like shit, like all
of this stuff. It just it externalizes because you haven't
you haven't listened to it, you haven't valued it, you
haven't spoken about it. So I don't want these warm
and fuzzy chats, you know, like we can have hard hitting,
real manly fucking conversations about stuff that go, I need this,

(01:00:52):
I've got to do this. So that next weekend when
my wife goes away, I'm actually not going to fall
apart when my kids ask me what's up?

S2 (01:01:01):
And I know this is a long conversation that's happened
all around. Two guys with real bum fluff mustaches, but.

S1 (01:01:07):
We should have done this at the end of the month.

S2 (01:01:09):
Yeah, but now it's too late then. Yeah, I think
this is the. This is the real brilliance of, um.
What is it, the Garoni and Falconer. Yeah, yeah. Trent
and I can't remember the other founders. Oh, this is
silly thing going on with this person standing in front
of me. And I asked him the question, and they say, oh,

(01:01:30):
it's this. And and and now you're there and you're
having that conversation.

S1 (01:01:35):
It's a it's teleportation. Like it gets you there so quickly.
And it's it's the banter. It's that light and dark.
It's like, oh, here's this dumb thing. Let's talk about
male suicide. Like it's a it's a wild thing to
walk into community events and have these constantly fluctuating conversations.
It's incredible. Everyone's attempted to model it. They've all failed.

(01:01:59):
We got the good shit going and we're just going
to keep rolling because this is. This is the issue
of our times. Yeah, there's no doubt about it.

S2 (01:02:08):
I'm so stoked that you're gonna have a baby, mate.
It's the best thing ever. I'll bring.

S1 (01:02:11):
I'll bring him next to you when we.

S3 (01:02:12):
Do this again.

S2 (01:02:14):
Uh, get some sound decisions in in the next couple
of weeks because, uh. Yeah, pretty soon, the most exciting
thing in the universe will be in your house, and
you really won't want to go anywhere, because, like, I
know this is here. Look at this. It's amazing.

S1 (01:02:29):
Yeah, maybe we should give these 13 year olds just
newborns to look at instead of screens.

S2 (01:02:34):
Oh, we did that in a Bachelor episode once. It
was real fun. They were battery operated, but they weed
and pooed and. Yeah, it was pretty fun. Um, thanks
for coming in, Zach.

S3 (01:02:43):
Thanks for having me.

S2 (01:02:43):
I appreciate it, ma'am. That was Doctor Zac Seidler, the
global director of men's health research at Movember and soon
to be dad of Zeus. I do like that. I
do like that very much. I don't know if they're
going to stick with Zeus. We called Wolfie Chickpea. He
didn't have a name for the first three days. Yeah.
Sometimes you don't know what their names are until they go.

(01:03:06):
You go. Oh, you're a Wolfgang. It was pretty obvious.
If you want to support the work that Zach does.
Find someone you know that's trying to grow a moustache
and give them some money. That's pretty much it. Movember
do enormous things with the money, as you heard me
describing in that conversation. As far as bang for buck,
when charities go, Movember are one of the greatest on

(01:03:27):
the planet, and they've changed the way research, medical research
is done, particularly around prostate cancer, and they're changing it
in the way that men's mental health is being researched.
You can donate to me. I'll put the link in
the show notes. However you do, thank you for your support.
We'll see you on Monday.